James Haden's Eurostep of the Year

[noob cake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuWlsr8qlXs

[SyRyanYang]

Looks like a travel to me:confusedshrug:

[SugarHill]

Looks like a travel to me:confusedshrug:
Does seem that way in slowmo

[Rake2204]

Looks like a travel to me:confusedshrug:I thought it looked pretty darn textbook. He did not gather until that left foot hit the ground then was in the air with the next step.

[nathanjizzle]

Not a travel

[Dro]

Definitely not a travel...........

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not a travel
this

[ronnymac]

Looks like a travel to me:confusedshrug:
That looks pretty legal. Two long stride steps. His change of direction probably makes it seem like an extra step was intitiated

[Xsatyr]

I love when people call travel on plays like these. You guys need to learn how to identify which foot a player gathers their step.

[2swift4u]

Actually it is a travel imo. the last ball bounce was before he set his right foot. so after the bounce he went right-left-right which is 3 steps which would be a travel but usually they don't call that in the NBA.

[QuebecBaller]

and right after, he did his classic defense :lol

[iznogood]

It's a travel. Even NBA video rulebook says it's a travel. The "gather" step counts as a step as well.

http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=75

[Sakkreth]

Technically if you go by the rulebook it is a travel. But such travels never ever gets called for some reason even in europe.

[kurple]

dwade, lebron and any PG in the league would average 4+ travels a game if the refs were to call those

time to just change the rulebook

[Rake2204]

Actually it is a travel imo. the last ball bounce was before he set his right foot. so after the bounce he went right-left-right which is 3 steps which would be a travel but usually they don't call that in the NBA.With respect, the last bounce is not what distinguishes a travel from a non-travel. The time of the gather is what is important (that is, when a player has definitively picked up his dribble). A player could theoretically bounce the basketball, do a 9-step jig while it's hovering in the air, then grab the ball & shoot under legal means.

In Harden's case, the gather was not induced until after the right foot was planted, so he had two steps to work with thereafter. Those ended up being the hard step to the left, then the counter step back to the right.

Here's a closer look. The "third" step has already been completed, with the ball not yet gathered. Harden is in the process of gathering the ball here, and will have completed the gathering process as he plants the initial left foot (step 1), followed by the cut back (step 2).

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g423/Rake2204/HardenGather.jpg

[2swift4u]

With respect, the last bounce is not what distinguishes a travel from a non-travel. The time of the gather is what is important (that is, when a player has definitively picked up his dribble). A player could theoretically bounce the basketball, do a 9-step jig while it's hovering in the air, then grab the ball & shoot under legal means.

In Harden's case, the gather was not induced until after the right foot was planted, so he had two steps to work with thereafter. Those ended up being the hard step to the left, then the counter step back to the right.

Here's a closer look. The "third" step has already been completed, with the ball not yet gathered. Harden is in the process of gathering the ball here, and will have completed the gathering process as he plants the initial left foot (step 1), followed by the cut back (step 2).

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g423/Rake2204/HardenGather.jpg


I see what you mean, good point! But it's kinda hard to tell when a player gathers. If you watch the replay of Harden's eurostep then it seems to me that he's gathering right after the second to last left step. After that step the ball goes up to his shoulders (which kinda ends the dribble) and then he takes a right step, left and right. So to me it looks like he's going to pick the dribble up/gather after that left step and then takes 3 more. However in this case it's not easy to decide whether it's a violation or not. I just have a feeling that over here in Europe I'd get called for that!

[Xsatyr]

It's a travel. Even NBA video rulebook says it's a travel. The "gather" step counts as a step as well.

http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=75

Did you even read what you posted???

"Upon gathering the ball, an offensive player may only take two steps before he must release the ball on the pass or shot attempt."

Harden took two steps after gathering. Also just because the ball bounces back to your hand does not mean it's gathered.

[Rake2204]

I see what you mean, good point! But it's kinda hard to tell when a player gathers. If you watch the replay of Harden's eurostep then it seems to me that he's gathering right after the second to last left step. After that step the ball goes up to his shoulders (which kinda ends the dribble) and then he takes a right step, left and right. So to me it looks like he's going to pick the dribble up/gather after that left step and then takes 3 more. However in this case it's not easy to decide whether it's a violation or not. I just have a feeling that over here in Europe I'd get called for that!Oh man, yeah, whether it'd be whistled as a violation in Europe is another case altogether, ha. This article may help clear the air a little, on the NBA's by-the-book alteration to account for two full steps: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4563546

I think things can sometimes become over-complicated by looking in slow motion. In real time, Harden's Euro-step appears to be textbook. The manner with which he gathers and the steps that occur are entirely consistent to the naked eye with what we consider a legal maneuver. Watching the play in super slow motion removes the "natural look" of things, but the legality remains.

Not to be super meticulous, but I feel this situation may call for it: the ball bouncing up near his shoulder does not insinuate a gather, nor does it "kinda end the dribble". The dribble ends or it doesn't. Again, theoretically, Harden could bounce the ball to shoulder height on each dribble if he wanted, as long as he wasn't carrying or cuffing the ball at some point.

In fact, that elongated last dribble is what allows this particular play to remain legal. Had he gathered the ball immediately after a quick last dribble, there's a chance his gather may have taken place prior to that first right step. Instead, Harden keeps the dribble live until that right foot is planted, then he gathers prior to Left Step, Right Step.

When we break it down like that, the Euro-step sounds really complicated, but it's actually a very natural move that requires little thought to those executing.

A legal Euro-step just feels natural and right, it just tends to happen. It is a move I use very, very regularly in my own play. But for your entertainment purposes, I happen to have footage of one of my worst Euro-bloopers of all-time, which I've posted here a couple of times already due to its ridiculous nature. In short, I saw a defender back waiting for me, thought he was going to try to take a charge or stop me - but instead he was going to concede the basket, so I was dumb in pre-planning the maneuver instead of reacting. As a result, his concession made my brain malfunction, leading to this:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-17-2014/4ZPGom.gif

That's an illegal Euro-step (actually, that's multiple Euro-steps in one). Someone made the comparison of it looking like a running back chopping his feet at the line of scrimmage. Pretty on point.

[iznogood]

Oh man, yeah, whether it'd be whistled as a violation in Europe is another case altogether, ha. This article may help clear the air a little, on the NBA's by-the-book alteration to account for two full steps: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4563546

I think things can sometimes become over-complicated by looking in slow motion. In real time, Harden's Euro-step appears to be textbook. The manner with which he gathers and the steps that occur are entirely consistent to the naked eye with what we consider a legal maneuver. Watching the play in super slow motion removes the "natural look" of things, but the legality remains.

Not to be super meticulous, but I feel this situation may call for it: the ball bouncing up near his shoulder does not insinuate a gather, nor does it "kinda end the dribble". The dribble ends or it doesn't. Again, theoretically, Harden could bounce the ball to shoulder height on each dribble if he wanted, as long as he wasn't carrying or cuffing the ball at some point.

In fact, that elongated last dribble is what allows this particular play to remain legal. Had he gathered the ball immediately after a quick last dribble, there's a chance his gather may have taken place prior to that first right step. Instead, Harden keeps the dribble live until that right foot is planted, then he gathers prior to Left Step, Right Step.

When we break it down like that, the Euro-step sounds really complicated, but it's actually a very natural move that requires little thought to those executing.

A legal Euro-step just feels natural and right, it just tends to happen. It is a move I use very, very regularly in my own play. But for your entertainment purposes, I happen to have footage of one of my worst Euro-bloopers of all-time, which I've posted here a couple of times already due to its ridiculous nature. In short, I saw a defender back waiting for me, thought he was going to try to take a charge or stop me - but instead he was going to concede the basket, so I was dumb in pre-planning the maneuver instead of reacting. As a result, his concession made my brain malfunction, leading to this:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-17-2014/4ZPGom.gif

That's an illegal Euro-step (actually, that's multiple Euro-steps in one). Someone made the comparison of it looking like a running back chopping his feet at the line of scrimmage. Pretty on point.

I was a referee under FIBA for some time and got to call some U15, U16 and U17 international tournament and basketball rules are something that interests me a lot, so here's how I see it, I hope we can have a good debate over this topic!

I'll be honest, most of Harden's euro-steps don't look natural to me. I noticed right away he squeezed an extra step in. Compare this to the old euro-step gifs that were linked in the topic where members debated over the origin of the name euro-step. A proper euro-step should look just like an ordinary two step only that you plant your feet outside of what you normally would to get the lateral movement. And I realise the old guys didn't emphasise the side step as much as modern players do, but even if you do it should basically look like a slower two-step. And this is why I feel like the gather rule is interpreted incorrect in cases like that. Also in the cases where people gather their dribble after the basic crossover (this is one that happens most often).

I read the article you linked. An interesting reading, but if I understood correctly, the rule was only changed because the old rules did not explicitly allow two steps, yet this is one of the basic finishing moves you are being taught as a basketball player. So they basically legalised what was already happening. The point of this rule was not to allow an extra step. What happened is that people started to interpret the word "gather" very literally - when somebody has full control over the ball (meaning the player should be holding the ball firmly, the way a running back would hold it). And this is in my opinion impossible for a referee to call in a real game, because it's very subjective to determine, whether somebody had full control over the ball or not. Even with slow motion replay it's hard to determine if somebody gathered full control over the ball before he planted his foot. That's why I think the proper interpretation of the rule should be that the gather means the player would not be allowed a legal dribble if he made on in that situation.

I think it was wrong to change the rule the way NBA did. I'm saying that because there are tons of situations like that. For example when you dribble the ball changing there hands from left to right you are always take 2 full steps. Or when somebody does a stutter step. There's many more and these moves are all wrong by the rulebook. In my opinion NBA officiating in the last 10 years or so really changed the perception of the rules people have. It became normal for people to take 3 steps today, because one of those steps is being camouflaged as a gather step. Yet from what I've read I don't believe this was the intention of the rule change (allowing 2 steps after gathering the ball). I've looked Harden's video a couple of times and it feels like a travel every time. Now, if I slow it down enough, it might be arguable that he didn't have full control of the ball as he planted his foot, but I think that's the point - it's something people argue about even when slow motion replay is available and the referees don't have slow motion to call travelling.

In my understanding, it's not the number of the steps allowed that's problematic. Both FIBA and NBA allowed 2 steps for years decades even though it has not been allowed by the rules. What has changed is the perception of when the ball is gathered, because there is no strict definition. I'm sure if you ask any of the older players whether this is travelling they will say yes.

As for if this is a travel by FIBA rulebook - FIBA has the exact same rule NBA had (allowing only one step) and they did not change it, but they've also allowed two steps for years. I remember seeing tapes from late 60's Yugoslavian league basketball games and people would finish after taking two steps.
That said, FIBA "adjusted" the way their referees officiate the games because they had to. Nowadays you see guards changing their pivot foot the exact same way NBA players do. For some reason, the referees call a travel when somebody does it in the low post, but it's not called when a perimeter player does it. And you even see differences on different levels. For example ACB is far stricter when it comes to travelling than Euroleague. I'm pretty sure this move will be legal in a couple of years, I've seen players gather the ball after a crossover and finish with 3 steps this year in Euroleague and it did not get called for travel. It's always called as travel in ACB.

There are tons of unclear situations like that in FIBA basketball (I'd say there are less in the NBA, but there's also more toleration of travelling for the sake of simple fans who enjoy watching basketball go through the hoop), one of my favourite is if the player is allowed to finish of his non-pivot foot (this happens often when a player does the reverse pivot, tries to jump toward the basket and doesn't jump off both feet, but rather of his front foot (the non-pivot foot)).
So, I've talked to numerous referees about that. Among other 4 referees that have called FIBA WC, EC or olympics. About 80% or 85% percent say it's a travel and the other say it's not. Even the referees that all officiated at the highest level had different opinions, even though the rulebook is in my opinion quite clear about it. When I confronted some of those, who thought otherwise, with the quote from the rulebook, they said they know the rules and this is the way they think is right and they have been taught to play basketball.

[Burgz V2]

Actually it is a travel imo. the last ball bounce was before he set his right foot. so after the bounce he went right-left-right which is 3 steps which would be a travel but usually they don't call that in the NBA.

that's not how it works. if you slow down players while they are running with the ball they are taking 4 sometimes 5 steps before dribbling. There are better arguments to make than this one tbh. The point is if they keep a continuous dribble. In Harden's case (like Rake pointed out) the step you're referring to occurs at a point in his movement where he can still keep his dribble alive without it being called a carry. He then plants his left and cuts back to his right.

not a travel.

[ILLsmak]

This is the downside of team-only fans. They have shit integrity. They force themselves to like a team's star player. If James Harden was the best player on my team, I wouldn't be able to cheer for them.

James Harden makes me want to cry.

Edit: to me all Euro steps are a bullshit interpretation of the rules. Just like ridiculous hop steps where both feet don't come down at the same time are travels, too.

I know the rules changed, but I can't imagine when they allowed for two steps they thought you would be not using them in forward motion.

Dudes doing 10 foot hop steps, after already running one step then coming down with their feet unevenly. Dudes doing extra long direction changing Eurosteps... get the **** out.

Too bad no defensive rules have ever changed for the better.

-Smak

[Papaya Petee]

Nice! But, Wades eurostep on KG in 2011 semis is arguably the GOAT > this one.

But this season yes.

[Rake2204]

I was a referee under FIBA for some time and got to call some U15, U16 and U17 international tournament and basketball rules are something that interests me a lot, so here's how I see it, I hope we can have a good debate over this topic! I enjoyed your feedback. I wished to quote only the initial portion of your post for the sake of length.

The article I linked was merely to illustrate the wide range of interpretation of the steps rule, depending upon numerous factors (region being one of them), so some may have different ideas of traveling based off their locality (FIBA vs. USA high school, for example). The NBA opted to put in stone what many (but certainly not all) had already been doing for years. Other levels of basketball still tend to offer a range of steps interpretation - some go with the two-step, some a strict one, some find a middle ground.


I think it was wrong to change the rule the way NBA did. I'm saying that because there are tons of situations like that. For example when you dribble the ball changing there hands from left to right you are always take 2 full steps. Or when somebody does a stutter step. There's many more and these moves are all wrong by the rulebook.I may need some clarification on what you are saying here. The number of steps taken during a live dribble is not restricted. The two-steps rule (or two-count rhythm) is in reference to the completion of a dribble. As mentioned earlier, a player can do a dance if they choose, so long as the dribble remains legally active (no cuff, palm, or gather).


It became normal for people to take 3 steps today, because one of those steps is being camouflaged as a gather step. Yet from what I've read I don't believe this was the intention of the rule change (allowing 2 steps after gathering the ball). I've looked Harden's video a couple of times and it feels like a travel every time.I do believe travels occur frequently in the NBA, sometimes to an embarrassingly obvious degree (see Steve Francis cuffing the ball while running down court before bouncing an alley-oop to himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJIoDdxByoY).

However, I do not believe the Harden move was an example of an illegal play, as I do not feel he took three steps upon the completion of his dribble. Here is another look:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g423/Rake2204/HardenGather2.jpg

At that point in the play, Harden could have very well continued dribbling. His hand is over the ball and could remain that way if he so chose. His right step (aka the "third" step) has already been taken before the discontinuation of his dribble. Since the dribble is still live, he still has two steps (or rhythms) at his disposal. As we know, Harden ended his dribble shortly after the freeze frame above then completed his two-rhythm.

I think viewers watching in real time could tell Harden might have been setting up for a Euro, and they may have been pretty certain he wasn't going to continue dribbling after that first right footed step. But, by rule, that dribble was still live on that step. Knowing a dribble is about to conclude does not mean it has already concluded.

[UK2K]

Harden for MVP

[mrpibb]

This is the downside of team-only fans. They have shit integrity. They force themselves to like a team's star player. If James Harden was the best player on my team, I wouldn't be able to cheer for them.

James Harden makes me want to cry.

Edit: to me all Euro steps are a bullshit interpretation of the rules. Just like ridiculous hop steps where both feet don't come down at the same time are travels, too.

I know the rules changed, but I can't imagine when they allowed for two steps they thought you would be not using them in forward motion.

Dudes doing 10 foot hop steps, after already running one step then coming down with their feet unevenly. Dudes doing extra long direction changing Eurosteps... get the **** out.

Too bad no defensive rules have ever changed for the better.

-Smak

How are eurosteps travels in any way, shape, or form? You're allowed two steps with one foot each. You can't compare them to hop steps.