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riseagainst
11-07-2014, 02:46 PM
obviously Duncan is 1st (if you consider him a PF)
Then i have Dirk at 2nd.
2nd GREATEST POWER FORWARD EVER.
ROUND MOUND (OF RBD) DONT GET SALTY

IncarceratedBob
11-07-2014, 02:47 PM
Karl Malone is better than Dirk tho

pastis
11-07-2014, 02:49 PM
Duncan
Dirk
Garnett
Malone
Barkley

this is the truth. a lot of people cant believe it, but this is it.

Prometheus
11-07-2014, 02:50 PM
I do think Dirk is underappreciated, but I'd pick Garnett over him every time.

IncarceratedBob
11-07-2014, 02:51 PM
If MJ wasn't such a bitch then Malone would have several rings

riseagainst
11-07-2014, 02:52 PM
If MJ wasn't such a bitch then Malone would have several rings

what a selfish prick. Hogging all the rings for himself and the Bulls.
:oldlol:

dubeta
11-07-2014, 02:53 PM
Gasol is a top 5 PF as well, in fact he's my 2nd greatest PF of all time

Duncan

Gasol

Malone/Barkley

Dirk

Prometheus
11-07-2014, 02:54 PM
If MJ was a bitch then Malone might have several rings

fixed

pastis
11-07-2014, 02:55 PM
Gasol is a top 5 PF as well, in fact he's my 2nd greatest PF of all time

Duncan

Gasol

Malone/Barkley

Dirk

i give you credit that gasol was magnificent in 2009 and 2010 and that kobe robbed 1 fmvp from gasol.
but thereis no way that regarding his whole career and domince, all nba, all-star, ppg etc he can be considered as a top5 PF. no way.

Prometheus
11-07-2014, 02:56 PM
Gasol is a top 5 PF as well, in fact he's my 2nd greatest PF of all time

Duncan

Gasol

Malone/Barkley

Dirk

If I didn't already know for a fact that you're a very objective/unbiased poster, I would almost feel compelled to say that you have an agenda with this statement. It's hard to shake the feeling that maybe you do. I trust you though.

riseagainst
11-07-2014, 02:56 PM
i give you credit that gasol was magnificent in 2009 and 2010 and that kobe robbed 1 fmvp from gasol.
but thereis no way that regarding his whole career and domince, all nba, all-star, ppg etc he can be considered as a top5 PF. no way.

agreed with the bolded. But the first part is pure stupidity at its finest.

fpliii
11-07-2014, 02:56 PM
1a/1b KG/Duncan
3 Dirk
4 Barkley

Duncan probably finishes ahead of KG, and Dirk can as well if he has more seasons like last year.

dubeta
11-07-2014, 02:57 PM
i give you credit that gasol was magnificent in 2009 and 2010 and that kobe robbed 1 fmvp from gasol.
but thereis no way that regarding his whole career and domince, all nba, all-star, ppg etc he can be considered as a top5 PF. no way.

Bolded is 100% true, Kobe was willing to sabotage Game 7 2010 Finals just to get the FMVP, luckily the rest of the team could save that game with timely buckets.

T_L_P
11-07-2014, 02:59 PM
1a/1b KG/Duncan
3 Dirk
4 Barkley

Duncan probably finishes ahead of KG, and Dirk can as well if he has more seasons like last year.

Isn't that a given? I mean, Duncan and KG as Playoff performers aren't really that close imo.

lakers_forever
11-07-2014, 03:00 PM
6th.

Duncan
Bob Pettit
Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk

pastis
11-07-2014, 03:01 PM
Isn't that a given? I mean, Duncan and KG as Playoff performers aren't really that close imo.

Duncan is clearly rank 1.
the special thing about duncan: he is also a top 10 center ever:applause:

damn, you saw how important he is for the team yesterday

T_L_P
11-07-2014, 03:02 PM
Duncan is clearly rank 1.
the special thing about duncan: he is also a top 10 center ever:applause:

damn, you saw how important he is for the team yesterday

Duncan
Dirk
KG
Barkley
Petit/Malone

My personal list.

IncarceratedBob
11-07-2014, 03:02 PM
6th.

Duncan
Bob Pettit
Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk
lmao this dude said Bob Pettit

where are the Monstars on your list?

Hamtaro CP3KDKG
11-07-2014, 03:05 PM
1a/1b KG/Duncan
3 Dirk
4 Barkley

Duncan probably finishes ahead of KG, and Dirk can as well if he has more seasons like last year.
agree with 1a/b and 3
not sure about 4...........b/w Mailman and Chuck but Dirk is definitely better than either

dubeta
11-07-2014, 03:08 PM
smh no love for the legendary Pau Gasol :facepalm :hammerhead:

Nowitness
11-07-2014, 03:09 PM
i love dirk

1. tim duncan
2. dirk
3/4/5: malone/barkley/kg

IncarceratedBob
11-07-2014, 03:10 PM
smh no love for the legendary Pau Gasol :facepalm :hammerhead:
HAHAHAHAHAHAA. You ****ing ******.

Pau isn't on the level of these dudes. Stop. He's better than Bob Pettit though.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG
11-07-2014, 03:11 PM
smh no love for the legendary Pau Gasol :facepalm :hammerhead:
Pau is Bosh level. Arguably top 10 alltime but prolly not quite there

Demitri98
11-07-2014, 03:11 PM
Duncan
KG
Dirk
Malone
Barkley

lakers_forever
11-07-2014, 03:12 PM
lmao this dude said Bob Pettit

where are the Monstars on your list?

Only two men led their team to beat Russell's Celtics (the greatest dinasty ever): Wilt and Pettit.

Pettit was a 2 time MVP, would have won Final's MVP if it existed back then, 10 time all nba first team, 2 time scoring champion and he averaged at least 20 ppg in the 11 seasons he played in the NBA (the only other guy to this - the goat, Jordan).

Yep, I guess is is laughable to rank Pettit so high... :facepalm

Im Still Ballin
11-07-2014, 03:14 PM
Where art thou Webber, yo.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG
11-07-2014, 03:15 PM
KG
Timmy
Dirk
Chuck
Karl
Mchale
Pettit
Kemp
Rodman

last spot to Bosh, Cunningham or Pau not sure

Nowitness
11-07-2014, 03:21 PM
KG
Timmy
Dirk
Chuck
Karl
Mchale
Pettit
Kemp
Rodman

last spot to Bosh, Cunningham or Pau not sure

kg isnt better than dirk. but better than duncan? :lol

L.Kizzle
11-07-2014, 03:23 PM
Bob Pettit

The rest

Nowitness
11-07-2014, 03:24 PM
Bob Pettit

The rest

You trolling?

Noob Saibot
11-07-2014, 03:26 PM
Top 6 if you include Tim Duncan.

Jlamb47
11-07-2014, 03:28 PM
Duncan
KG
Dirk
Malone
Chuck



the rest

BarberSchool
11-07-2014, 03:35 PM
At their Peaks:

1. Barkley
2. Duncan
3. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Dirk


When longevity/rings/TOTAL RESUME are factored in:

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Malone
5. barkley

Hamtaro CP3KDKG
11-07-2014, 03:45 PM
At their Peaks:

1. Barkley
2. Duncan
3. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Dirk


When longevity/rings/TOTAL RESUME are factored in:

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Malone
5. barkley
lol so does defense suddenly not matter for peaks?
the only one of those players Barkleys better than at his peak is Karl

04 KG is the best PF ever

T_L_P
11-07-2014, 03:49 PM
lol so does defense suddenly not matter for peaks?
the only one of those players Barkleys better than at his peak is Karl

04 KG is the best PF ever

Well, until the Playoffs started.

stalkerforlife
11-07-2014, 05:10 PM
3rd behind Duncan and Malone.

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 05:32 PM
1a/1b KG/Duncan
3 Dirk
4 Barkley

Duncan probably finishes ahead of KG, and Dirk can as well if he has more seasons like last year.

You really gotta stop linking Duncan and KG to each other like they're equals...

Again, besides 2004 and 2008, when was KG a top 3 player? Or even top 5?

2003?

Genaro
11-07-2014, 05:38 PM
5th of all time. Behind Duncan, Chuck, Malone and KG.

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 05:42 PM
I got it like this:

Duncan is the undisputed Nr.1 IF you rank him as PF...

If not, you can pick your guy from Dirk, Malone, Barkley.... Or I guess to some, KG.

They're all in the same tier, they all have their arguments.

Done_And_Done
11-07-2014, 05:47 PM
Duncan the undisputed number one

I'm still undecided as to whether KG or Dirk should follow. KG at his apex was arguably the best PF I've ever seen play but there's just something about that German...

Chuck and Malone are also in the mix as well as most predicate.

BlackWhiteGreen
11-07-2014, 05:52 PM
I got it like this:

Duncan is the undisputed Nr.1 IF you rank him as PF...

If not, you can pick your guy from Dirk, Malone, Barkley.... Or I guess to some, KG.

They're all in the same tier, they all have their arguments.

Barkley is before my time, but Ive never heard a compelling argument for him over KG

(Cannot be bother to argue Dirk/KG for the millionth time)

fpliii
11-07-2014, 05:57 PM
You really gotta stop linking Duncan and KG to each other like they're equals...

Again, besides 2004 and 2008, when was KG a top 3 player? Or even top 5?

2003?
KG is top 5 every year from 03-09 IMO, and was great from 00-02. Elite defender from 10-13 too.

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 06:02 PM
Barkley is before my time, but Ive never heard a compelling argument for him over KG

(Cannot be bother to argue Dirk/KG for the millionth time)

Chuck is really underrated... I guess his TNT personality and the fact that thats all people know of him does that.

Player who shot 60% on his 2 Point shots for the majority of his prime years... A different animal scoring wise. While KG was busy taking his Jumpers while being built like a tank, Chuck took it down low with force.

He's really like LeBron... Freak of nature. Great speed, quickness, balance, etc. You might get an illusion just seing his rather thick body, but the dude was as explosive as it gets. Great handles for his size. At his peak perhaps the GOAT PF.

His defense is often claimed his flaw, but it wasnt as bad as some people make it out to be given the footage I saw... And his rebounding was stellar.

Insanely crafty inside, not as skilled as others, but he just forced his way in there.. And he had a good step back. Too quick for bigs, too strong for guards.

Battled peak MJ for best in the league AND won an MVP off of him, and was legitemately robbed in 1990.

If MJ hadn't existed we would remember him differently.

D.J.
11-07-2014, 06:05 PM
Borderline top 5. Top 4 I have Duncan, Barkley, Malone, Garnett. 5th I'm torn between Dirk and Kevin McHale. If he's not 5th, then he's definitely 6th.

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 06:06 PM
KG is top 5 every year from 03-09 IMO, and was great from 00-02. Elite defender from 10-13 too.

2006-2007 top 5 over Kobe/LeBron/Dirk/Duncan/Nash/Wade?
2009 top 5 over LeBron/Kobe/Wade/Dirk/Howard/Paul?

Not so sure about that.

fpliii
11-07-2014, 06:11 PM
2006-2007 top 5 over Kobe/LeBron/Dirk/Duncan/Nash/Wade?
2009 top 5 over LeBron/Kobe/Wade/Dirk/Howard/Paul?

Not so sure about that.
Not in the mood for a debate tonight bro, but definitely multiple people on both lists.

RicksPlace
11-07-2014, 06:12 PM
1. Timmy
2. Dirk
3. KG
4.Chuck
5. Malone

This is the hardest position to rank. From 2-5 it can go either way.

Cold soul
11-07-2014, 06:19 PM
Dirk is 3rd behind Duncan and Garnett.

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 06:46 PM
Not in the mood for a debate tonight bro, but definitely multiple people on both lists.

No problem.. I can definitely see 2003 and 2005 and some arguments for '06 and '07 aswell.

Pointguard
11-07-2014, 10:22 PM
Player who shot 60% on his 2 Point shots for the majority of his prime years... A different animal scoring wise. While KG was busy taking his Jumpers while being built like a tank, Chuck took it down low with force.

:biggums: what are you smoking? When was KG "built like a tank???" KG has a slim build. Dirk has a bigger build, sobeit, KG was always obviously more apt to build, bang and mix it up. He always seemed stronger than Dirk. And surely you don't have a problem with big men taking jumpers? At least you shouldn't if you aren't bipolar.

Barkley and Dirk are most alike. Neither could guard an offensive minded PF and were unique in that they were taken off of good offensive players - of great PF they are the only two like that. The power forward position was a rebounding/defensive position until very recently.

Both Dirk and Barkley were offensively the best of those mentioned (cause could be made for Malone). Barkley was definitely superior to Dirk offensively, rebounding, assist wise during their primes. His efficiency numbers were also vastly superior. In fact, Barkley ensures that Dirk has no real nitch to claim with this group outside of his shooting:

KG best: all around player, all around defender, the best skilled, the best rebounder, the most fundamental,

Barkley the best offensively, most efficient,

Malone the most consistent scorer, the most prolific scorer, the most outstanding years,

Dirk the best shooter.



He's really like LeBron... Freak of nature. Great speed, quickness, balance, etc. You might get an illusion just seing his rather thick body, but the dude was as explosive as it gets. Great handles for his size. At his peak perhaps the GOAT PF.

His defense is often claimed his flaw, but it wasnt as bad as some people make it out to be given the footage I saw... And his rebounding was stellar.


In general the power forward position role was to hustle, rebound and play hard nosed defense. Two of these guys did not even guard offensive minded PFs. Barkley and Dirk were more of a deviation from their position as AI was to point guard. Name the five top PG's of all time. Not one of them could score like Iverson in the playoffs. Is Iverson considered a top five PG??? He is moreso considered a hybrid.

Barkley and Dirk are more like rebounding SF's than traditional PF's. If they were smarter and more skilled they are Bird or Durant offensively. If Iverson, Dirk and Barkley could defend their positions they would be looked at differently. Name a top center that couldn't defend centers? McAdoo was a bit more skilled than Dirk with about the same range, but because he didn't defend he doesn't get in these conversations.

Just something to think about.

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 10:28 PM
Dirk is the best shooter, scorer, clutch player, playoff performer... Good job not counting those.

And the difference in playoff RPG is minimal.

10.7 KG > 10.1 Dirk...

Best rebounding stretches (Prime):

KG 1999-2013 (123 games): 11.2 RPG
Dirk 2002-2010 (93 games): 11.2 RPG

Hardly noteable... In fact Dirk outrebounded KG defensively, but almost everyone has Dirk outrebounded offensively due to Dirk playing out on the perimeter... Which stretches the court for the team and easily accounts for more value than grabbing 1 more offensive rebound a game, as it can impact every shot by every team mate.

TheMarkMadsen
11-07-2014, 10:30 PM
Behind Duncan, KG, Mchale & Barkley

ArbitraryWater
11-07-2014, 10:36 PM
Oh McHale as well now? (And not Malone?) :oldlol:

Kobetards so insecure.

houston
11-07-2014, 11:39 PM
Dirk better than Malone and Barkley

RicksPlace
11-08-2014, 12:27 AM
Dirk only takes a backseat to Duncan.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 12:39 AM
Oh McHale as well now? (And not Malone?) :oldlol:

Kobetards so insecure.

why you always gotta bring up kobe

so because somebody doesn't agree with you that means they are insecure.. lol

paranoid as fvck

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 12:41 AM
why you always gotta bring up kobe

so because somebody doesn't agree with you that means they are insecure.. lol

paranoid as fvck

I know your agenda.. But I'll be fine with it if you can give me a good argument :confusedshrug:

masonanddixon
11-08-2014, 12:42 AM
#2 but head to head he's better than everyone he has faced, and that includes Duncan.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 12:44 AM
Dirk has become considerably overrated since 2011

before that he was known as an under performing soft choker who 50+ win teams were never taken seriously as a real threat in the playoffs

one fluke run where the opposing teams best player's collapse is a bigger story than how your team actually played doesn't change that

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 12:46 AM
Can I expect an actual case here or not?

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 12:48 AM
I know your agenda.. But I'll be fine with it if you can give me a good argument :confusedshrug:

what's my agenda? how does anything Dirk affect anything Kobe or Laker related?

Dude is a fringe top 20 player all time, Duncan & KG were clearly better, Dirk has 0 all defensive team selections..

0

it's hard to build around a guy like Dirk, a 7 footer who loves to play like he's a damn shooting guard and has no toughness inside. Cuban spent a decade surrounding Dirk with incredible talent and yet he still get's a pass

I'd love to see how many people would sit here and tell me Lebron/Kobe had no help if their teammate left them and became a b2b MVP in the process while eliminating Lebron/Kobe's team from the playoffs the very next year.

KG & Duncan are an absolute lock imo, Dirk could never touch KG's defense and toughness, and the scoring differential isn't enough to make up for it either

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 12:49 AM
i love how this clown has a Dirk avatar and is acting like he's unbiased in this discussion :roll: :roll:

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 12:52 AM
KG: 12x all nba defense (9x first team)

4x rebounding champion

2008 DPOY



what are Dirk's defensive accomplishments?

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 12:52 AM
Huh? Dirk is top 20 but you have McHale ahead of him? Where do you have McHale, bruh?

Tell me more about this incredible talent... Where was it from 2005-2013?

Okay, you can have KG ahead of him.. But dont act like its a blowout, either. The playoff performances between the 2 is actually in Dirk's favor, comfortably.

Edit: Why are you focusing on Defense? We already know KG has the upper hand there.

And they both average the same RPG in the Playoffs, lol.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 01:00 AM
Huh? Dirk is top 20 but you have McHale ahead of him? Where do you have McHale, bruh?

Tell me more about this incredible talent... Where was it from 2005-2013?

Okay, you can have KG ahead of him.. But dont act like its a blowout, either. The playoff performances between the 2 is actually in Dirk's favor, comfortably.

Edit: Why are you focusing on Defense? We already know KG has the upper hand there.

And they both average the same RPG in the Playoffs, lol.

The difference on defense is too large between KG and Dirk

one is arguably the 2nd best two way player of the last 25 years, the other was a defensive liability for majority of his career.

RicksPlace
11-08-2014, 01:17 AM
The difference on defense is too large between KG and Dirk

one is arguably the 2nd best two way player of the last 25 years, the other was a defensive liability for majority of his career.


Still all that defensive awards meant nothing when they they meet in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, KG is one of my favorite players ever, but sometimes even I overrate his defense. Also, Dirk is still going strong and is still the best shooter in the league at age 36. That counts for something.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 01:18 AM
Still all that defensive awards meant nothing when they they meet in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, KG is one of my favorite players ever, but sometimes even I overrate his defense. Also, Dirk is still going strong and is still the best shooter in the league at age 36. That counts for something.

Did Curry die?

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 01:24 AM
The difference on defense is too large between KG and Dirk

one is arguably the 2nd best two way player of the last 25 years, the other was a defensive liability for majority of his career.


Kobe doesn't play power forward.

As for the OP...after Duncan...it can go in any order.

Malone, Barkley, Pettit, Dirk, Garnett...really don't care the order a ton. For me it goes something like;

1. Duncan
2. Pettit
3. Dirk
4. KG
5. Malone
6. Barkley
7. McHale

But again...any order is fine.

Clowns...like the above...acting like there is a large gap between KG and Dirk is just silly. In no way could one objectively look at KG and Dirk and think that one was considerably a better basketball player than the other.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 01:35 AM
[/B]

Kobe doesn't play power forward.

As for the OP...after Duncan...it can go in any order.

Malone, Barkley, Pettit, Dirk, Garnett...really don't care the order a ton. For me it goes something like;

1. Duncan
2. Pettit
3. Dirk
4. KG
5. Malone
6. Barkley
7. McHale

But again...any order is fine.

Clowns...like the above...acting like there is a large gap between KG and Dirk is just silly. In no way could one objectively look at KG and Dirk and think that one was considerably a better basketball player than the other.

what aspect of basketball was Dirk better at than KG

3pt shooting? OK, what else?

Literally the only thing Dirk does better than KG is score an extra 2 1/2 points per game, and that's with KG's last 2 years in Boston and his time in Brooklyn included.

KG is more versatile, a better defender, better playmaker, better passer, plays with more intensity, isn't soft, more efficient and all around a better player please tell me when Dirk could ever dream of averaging 24/14/5/2/2 for an entire season?

KG has years where he averaged 6 assist per game with 22 points and 14 rebounds plus 2 blocks, Dirk never got close to this type of all around dominance.

not to mention KG was an absolute beast on the offensive boards, which Dirk never was, his career offensive rebounds per game are worse than some guards
Dirk can shoot the 3 better, that's about it to be honest

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 01:37 AM
what aspect of basketball was Dirk better at than KG

3pt shooting? OK, what else?

Literally the only thing Dirk does better than KG is score an extra 2 1/2 points per game, and that's with KG's last 2 years in Boston and his time in Brooklyn included.

KG is more versatile, a better defender, better playmaker, better passer, plays with more intensity, isn't soft, more efficient and all around a better player please tell me when Dirk could ever dream of averaging 24/14/5/2/2 for an entire season?

KG has years where he averaged 6 assist per game with 22 points and 14 rebounds plus 2 blocks, Dirk never got close to this type of all around dominance.

Dirk can shoot the 3 better, that's about it to be honest

Do a year-for-year comparison between the 2 and tell me its not close...

Mine:

2000-2004: KG
2005-2007: Dirk
2008: KG
2009-2015: Dirk

RicksPlace
11-08-2014, 01:40 AM
Did Curry die?


No, he is still alive, but imho Dirk is a better open shooter by a small margin. Also, the way he makes his teammates better just because of his presence and mismatches is very underrated. Curry is unbelievable, though.

SupermanOnSteroids
11-08-2014, 01:42 AM
Curry's probably the better shooter at this stage of Dirk's career, but Curry doesn't cause all the mismatches and open floor spaces that Dirk does as a PF.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 01:45 AM
No, he is still alive, but imho Dirk is a better open shooter by a small margin. Also, the way he makes his teammates better just because of his presence and mismatches is very underrated. Curry is unbelievable, though.

Curry took double the amount of 3's last season per game than Dirk and still shot a higher %

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

not gonna compare 2pt FG% with a pg and a pf.

pastis
11-08-2014, 01:45 AM
you know marfvcksen, just one thing.

the fact that you minimalize dirks game to his shooting shows me that you have absolutly no clue about dirk and his game. dirs post game is/ was one of the best.
you can read everywhere how versitile dirks play was and is, in how many ways he can score, how entire defense are focused on hm, creating space for others etc.

but well, saying dirk is fringe top 20 player...but for you kobe is top10?

kobe is never top 10, by far never. one charity mvp. meangless, overrated, by his own coach destroyed all-def selections. without shaq a beta. without super stacked team with gasol, artest, bynum, odom and goat coach he wins nothing, truly nothing.

same with garnett. garnett stopped playing when playoffs started. i give a **** about you 14 reb 22 ppg in a regular season.

dirk is way better tha grnett ever was.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 01:45 AM
what aspect of basketball was Dirk better at than KG

3pt shooting? OK, what else?

Literally the only thing Dirk does better than KG is score an extra 2 1/2 points per game, and that's with KG's last 2 years in Boston and his time in Brooklyn included.

KG is more versatile, a better defender, better playmaker, better passer, plays with more intensity, isn't soft, more efficient and all around a better player please tell me when Dirk could ever dream of averaging 24/14/5/2/2 for an entire season?

KG has years where he averaged 6 assist per game with 22 points and 14 rebounds plus 2 blocks, Dirk never got close to this type of all around dominance.

Dirk can shoot the 3 better, that's about it to be honest

doesn't work like that mate. can't break the game down like that thinking you just tally up skillsets or something.

dirk's mere presence on offense is more valuable than anything skillwise KG provides to be honest.

we could go back and forth for hours. with me saying similar things like...KG could never score 28 ppg in a championship playoff run and have a 61% TS and the most clutch playoff run since early 90's MJ.

basketball is a great game because there are so many ways to play. and some aspects, when mastered, trump all around play.

you see assists, but how many scoring chances does Dirk create on his pick and pop alone? I mean...did you ever really watch Dirk play in his prime...hell, even now? Take a look...our guards get wide open lanes to the basket because other teams are afraid to leave Dirk 25 feet away from the basket without the ball.

and could you provide some evidence that Dirk has been a defensive liability the majority of his career? I'll give you his early years up to about 02, but really don't see any evidence past that....and that is with Dirk being surrounded by poor defenders and playing nellie ball as well.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 01:46 AM
you know marfvcksen, just one thing.

the fact that you minimalize dirks game to his shooting shows me that you have absolutly no clue about dirk and his game. dirs post game is/ was one of the best.
you can read everywhere how versitile dirks play was and is, in how many ways he can score, how entire defense are focused on hm, creating space for others etc.

but well, saying dirk is fringe top 20 player...but for you kobe is top10?

kobe is never top 10, by far never. one charity mvp. meangless, overrated, by his own coach destroyed all-def selections. without shaq a beta. without super stacked team with gasol, artest, bynum, odom and goat coach he wins nothing, truly nothing.

same with garnett. garnett stopped playing when playoffs started. i give a **** about you 14 reb 22 ppg in a regular season.

dirk is way better tha grnett ever was.

ISH

where KG vs Dirk turns into

"Kobe is trash"

k

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 01:48 AM
Do a year-for-year comparison between the 2 and tell me its not close...

Mine:

2000-2004: KG
2005-2007: Dirk
2008: KG
2009-2015: Dirk

Hard to give 02 to KG when Dirk raped him and his Wolves in a first round sweep to the tune of 33/16/1 69% TS. But dat KG defense ....LOL

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 01:49 AM
Hard to give 02 to KG when Dirk raped him and his Wolves in a first round sweep to the tune of 33/16/1 69% TS. But dat KG defense ....LOL

Hell, even '03 is arguable but I'm just throwing him a bone.. Although it seems he ignored the year-for-year comparison.

TheMarkMadsen
11-08-2014, 01:51 AM
Hard to give 02 to KG when Dirk raped him and his Wolves in a first round sweep to the tune of 33/16/1 69% TS. But dat KG defense ....LOL


What a stupid thing to say

07 Dirk shot 38% in the first round and lost to an 8th seed

dat Dirk shooting...LOL

see how stupid that is?

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 01:53 AM
Peak-wise for me...

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone

Though KG's 2004 is the main reason for him being #2. If we expand it to a larger sample, say a 5-6 year prime, I might take Dirk #2.

Careers...

Duncan
Dirk
KG
Malone
Barkley

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 01:56 AM
What a stupid thing to say

07 Dirk shot 38% in the first round and lost to an 8th seed

dat Dirk shooting...LOL

see how stupid that is?

It's to show you that some things trump others you clown.

Not that KG was a bad defender. I'm a huge KG fan and have absolutely no problem with someone taking him over Dirk...although if Dirk keeps playing like this it's going to be harder and harder to rank KG above Dirk.

It's with people like you acting like there is some huge gap. There just never was between the two when they were in their primes. This isn't some comparison we need to go to the books on...we all are old enough (I assume) to have watched this play out from 01 to present...and anyone being remotely objective would admit that it's close.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 01:57 AM
What a stupid thing to say

07 Dirk shot 38% in the first round and lost to an 8th seed

dat Dirk shooting...LOL

see how stupid that is?

It's absolutely hilarious how you dispute EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT/FACT there is, but bring up some of the most arbitrary and dumb shit yourself..

pastis
11-08-2014, 01:58 AM
Peak-wise for me...

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone

Though KG's 2004 is the main reason for him being #2. If we expand it to a larger sample, say a 5-6 year prime, I might take Dirk #2.

Careers...

Duncan
Dirk
KG
Malone
Barkley

so KG over Dirk for his 2004 year? What about Dirks 2011 playoff-run?

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 02:06 AM
Also, where are these so called great teams you keep talking about for Dirk.

In Dirk's entire career...he's only had one team that has had a positive scoring differential without him on the floor. The 06 Mavs...with a whopping positive .2 scoring differential with Dirk off the floor.

Every single other year of his career...when Dirk goes to the bench...his team has a negative differential.

Since 2001 (as far back as it goes) Dirk's teams are plus 7.5 points per 100 with him on the floor and minus 3.5 points without him.

So...why were the Mavs so bad without Dirk if the teams were so stacked? And why did the defense get noticeably worse without Dirk if he was such a liability? Especially with Dirk playing against the other teams best players and playing the most minutes as well. Why?

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 02:17 AM
so KG over Dirk for his 2004 year? What about Dirks 2011 playoff-run?
What about it? It was a terrific playoff run and he stepped up big time..I still think MVP KG was a slightly higher impact 2-way player than peak Dirk. And as much as I like judging by the playoffs..we can't just throw regular season out the window, and KG's 2004 RS blows Dirk's 2011 out of the water. Though there are other Dirk regular seasons that are comparable, though stylistically different.

KG in 2004...24/14/5/2/2 on 55% TS, 29.4 PER .272 WS/48, 112/92 ORTG/DRTG, Net On/Off of +20.7 (+26.7 in the playoffs)...when KG was on the floor, they were around the 3rd best offense, by far the worst in the league when he was off. On defense..5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench. He may not have sustained that level for several seasons...but his impact in that season was ****ing unreal.

And I'm not one of the people who thinks Dirk's a poor defender..I actually think he was pretty good after the early 2000s..but we're talking about one of the most versatile, high impact defenders of all time in 2004 KG. Again, Dirk is no scrub defensively...but the difference is still sizable. Bigger than Dirk's advantage offensively.

pastis
11-08-2014, 02:19 AM
What about it? It was a terrific playoff run and he stepped up big time..I still think MVP KG was a slightly higher impact 2-way player than peak Dirk. And as much as I like judging by the playoffs..we can't just throw regular season out the window, and KG's 2004 RS blows Dirk's 2011 out of the water. Though there are other Dirk regular seasons that are comparable, though stylistically different.

KG in 2004...24/14/5/2/2 on 55% TS, 29.4 PER .272 WS/48, 112/92 ORTG/DRTG, Net On/Off of +20.7 (+26.7 in the playoffs)...when KG was on the floor, they were around the 3rd best offense, by far the worst in the league when he was off. On defense..5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench. He may not have sustained that level for several seasons...but his impact in that season was ****ing unreal.

And I'm not one of the people who thinks Dirk's a poor defender..I actually think he was pretty good after the early 2000s..but we're talking about one of the most versatile, high impact defenders of all time in 2004 KG. Again, Dirk is no scrub defensively...but the difference is still sizable. Bigger than Dirk's advantage offensively.

like Mark Jacksn said after Dirks ridiclous 40 point game against thunder, down 15 few minutes left, where dirk wins the game: "thats why i take offense over defense every day in the week".
you need a go-to-guy, makng buckets. that wins the game at the end. the bucket.

tpols
11-08-2014, 02:22 AM
doesn't work like that mate. can't break the game down like that thinking you just tally up skillsets or something.


I generally agree with that.. But I was thinking the other day.. Let's do a comparison of dirk vs KG via that logic.

Offense:
Scoring- dirk A+. KG B
Playmaking/passing - dirk B+(because of spacing provided). KG B (better passing less spacing due to lower threat)

Defense:
Individual defense- dirk B. KG B+
Team defense- dirk C. KG A+

Overall KG has the small edge in the comparison.. By 1 point.

But then when you account for the offense having more control than the defense in tight situations you see the difference is made up. So they're about equal in replacement value.

tpols
11-08-2014, 02:24 AM
It's absolutely hilarious how you dispute EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT/FACT there is, but bring up some of the most arbitrary and dumb shit yourself..

Madsen didn't bring anything arbitrary really.. He just made the point that if one was to destroy the credibility of KG defense based on one series he could do the same for dirk offense based on one series

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 02:27 AM
like Mark Jacksn said after Dirks ridiclous 40 point game against thunder, down 15 few minutes left, where dirk wins the game: "thats why i take offense over defense every day in the week".
you need a go-to-guy, makng buckets. that wins the game at the end. the bucket.
You also need to defend and rebound. Which MVP KG does better than Dirk by far.

pastis
11-08-2014, 02:35 AM
You also need to defend and rebound. Which MVP KG does better than Dirk by far.

rebound by far? in the playoffs?

tpols
11-08-2014, 02:39 AM
rebound by far? in the playoffs?

Tbh rebound numbers are skewed by the fact that dirk spent half his career playing in a small ball system and the other half playing next to shit centers.


Nobody in their right mind would choose dirk over KG in a rebounding battle given identical casts.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 02:40 AM
rebound by far? in the playoffs?
Again I was counting the entire season, regular season and playoffs combined. And yes..2004 KG >>>> 2011 Dirk as a rebounder.

Leroy Jetson
11-08-2014, 04:51 AM
Gasol is a top 5 PF as well, in fact he's my 2nd greatest PF of all time

Duncan

Gasol

Malone/Barkley

Dirk

Karl Malone would eat Gasol for breakfast and crap him out before lunch.

T_L_P
11-08-2014, 04:58 AM
#2 but head to head he's better than everyone he has faced, and that includes Duncan.

Duncan outplayed Dirk in 01, 03, arguably 06 (can go either way because Dirk improved as the series went on; Dirk put up 27/13/3/1/.5 and Duncan put up 32/12/4/1/3), and 14.

Dirk outplayed Duncan in 09 and 10.

Overall, Duncan averages more points, rebounds, assists and blocks against Dirk; Dirk averages more steals.

Duncan shoots 55/00/66 and Dirk shoots 48/20/91. And Duncan does this in less minutes.

I'm not convinced that he did. 01 was a year or so before Dirk's prime. But 14 was 6 years after Duncan's.

bizil
11-08-2014, 06:01 AM
:biggums: what are you smoking? When was KG "built like a tank???" KG has a slim build. Dirk has a bigger build, sobeit, KG was always obviously more apt to build, bang and mix it up. He always seemed stronger than Dirk. And surely you don't have a problem with big men taking jumpers? At least you shouldn't if you aren't bipolar.

Barkley and Dirk are most alike. Neither could guard an offensive minded PF and were unique in that they were taken off of good offensive players - of great PF they are the only two like that. The power forward position was a rebounding/defensive position until very recently.

Both Dirk and Barkley were offensively the best of those mentioned (cause could be made for Malone). Barkley was definitely superior to Dirk offensively, rebounding, assist wise during their primes. His efficiency numbers were also vastly superior. In fact, Barkley ensures that Dirk has no real nitch to claim with this group outside of his shooting:

KG best: all around player, all around defender, the best skilled, the best rebounder, the most fundamental,

Barkley the best offensively, most efficient,

Malone the most consistent scorer, the most prolific scorer, the most outstanding years,

Dirk the best shooter.



In general the power forward position role was to hustle, rebound and play hard nosed defense. Two of these guys did not even guard offensive minded PFs. Barkley and Dirk were more of a deviation from their position as AI was to point guard. Name the five top PG's of all time. Not one of them could score like Iverson in the playoffs. Is Iverson considered a top five PG??? He is moreso considered a hybrid.

Barkley and Dirk are more like rebounding SF's than traditional PF's. If they were smarter and more skilled they are Bird or Durant offensively. If Iverson, Dirk and Barkley could defend their positions they would be looked at differently. Name a top center that couldn't defend centers? McAdoo was a bit more skilled than Dirk with about the same range, but because he didn't defend he doesn't get in these conversations.

Just something to think about.

Well said! In terms of Chuck, at his height the PF's of his day could shoot over him and post him up. Chuck was certainly a freak athlete and strong as as an ox, but giving up 4-5 inches a night played a huge factor in defending PF's. In Dirk's case, he wasn't physical enough to really defend the PF's in his era like Timmy, KG, Sheed, Webber, Mcdyess, Amare, etc. But in terms of scoring versatility, Chuck and Dirk are the best PF's of all time in my book. Chuck was also a beast rebounder and had point forward skills too. Dirk at 7'0, being a pure shooter from anywhere, and having an elite swingman's skillset separated him from the pack. Chuck, Dirk, and KG were the PF's who were the bridge to the SF position. McAdoo fits into that too if u count him as a PF. The guys like Duncan, Mailman, McHale, Hayes, and Petitt were your pure PF's. Or in Duncan's case can even be an HOF center.

miles berg
11-08-2014, 09:21 AM
1. Duncan
2. Nowitzki
3. Barkley
4. Garnett
5. Malone

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 09:35 AM
Madsen didn't bring anything arbitrary really.. He just made the point that if one was to destroy the credibility of KG defense based on one series he could do the same for dirk offense based on one series

But I wasn't saying that.

I was just pointing out, rightfully, that some things trump others...which I know you agree with.

And it was in response to arbitrary giving 02 to KG...and I think the 02 series should be talked about in that sense.

I was of course not saying that one series determines much. I rank KG as a top 10 defender of all time. And up until the last year or so ranked KG over Dirk all time.

My issue, as always, is with people claiming there is a big gap either way.

PsychoBe
11-08-2014, 09:50 AM
top 3

duncan
kg
dirk
malone
barkley

eklip
11-08-2014, 10:06 AM
Regular season:
1) Malone
2) Duncan
3) Garnett
4) Dirk
5) Barkley (bad longevity compared to the other 4)

Playoffs:
1) Duncan
2) Dirk
3) Barkley
4) Garnett
5) Malone



I rank playoffs much higher, so that's my overall ranking:
1) Duncan
...
2) Dirk
3/4) Garnett, Barkley
5) Malone

Malone was just too inefficient in the playoffs and not known to be an elite defender like Duncan and Garnett. Someone called Malone the most consistent scorer, but he isn't if he can't keep it up in the playoffs. He's definitely the most consistent in the regular season, though.

I can't understand why people rank Garnett close to Duncan. Do people totally ignore the playoffs? Duncan was always a great go-to guy on offense. Garnett did it in his Minnesota years, but he wasn't great at it.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 10:08 AM
The KG argument is the same with Moses Malone...

"Offense:
KG 8 - Moses 9

Defense:
KG 10 - Moses 4

KG > Moses"

Same old... But doesn't work that way.

BlackWhiteGreen
11-08-2014, 10:36 AM
The KG argument is the same with Moses Malone...

"Offense:
KG 8 - Moses 9

Defense:
KG 10 - Moses 4

KG > Moses"

Same old... But doesn't work that way.

In your head perhaps not, but some of us value defence as much as offense.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 10:56 AM
In your head perhaps not, but some of us value defence as much as offense.

You can still heavily value defense and not think KG was considerably better than Moses. Which he just wasn't by the way. I'd take Moses actually...and I don't think that is some absurd stance even though KG was a far better defender.

We've tried to explain this to people so many times. You can't break down basketball like that. Some skills or some attributes simply mean more.

On this thinking...you'd get KG being better than Magic. KG is a sure fire 10 out of 10 defensively and a very skilled offensive player with few weaknesses. He's at least a 7...likely an 8 on offense.

Magic is a 10 on offense...and what was he on defense? A 5? A 6? At best?

Guess what...Magic Johnson was literally about twice as good of an overall basketball player than Kevin Garnett.

Again, it does not work that way.

Locked_Up_Tonight
11-08-2014, 11:02 AM
I think this is probably the most tiresome argument on this site: ranking the PFs.

After Duncan who is unanimously number 1..... the rest of the guys: Dirk/KG/Barkley/Malone could all be ranked 2 or 6 depending on what you value.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 11:13 AM
I think this is probably the most tiresome argument on this site: ranking the PFs.

After Duncan who is unanimously number 1..... the rest of the guys: Dirk/KG/Barkley/Malone could all be ranked 2 or 6 depending on what you value.

Yep.

We should be talking about this:

Dirk is at 21/6/2 64% TS so far this season. Which is absurd considering he's hardly getting to the ft line at all. He's at 122 ortg so far as well. The dude is 36 and has carried a franchise on his back by himself as the only mainstay since essentially the 03 season.

He took literally less than half what his market value was (Rockets offered him the full max) and he's as dedicated as ever to doing whatever it takes for the team to win.

Who knows if he'll be able to play an entire season like this (I'm thinking not...and hopefully we get good enough to rest him), but we should appreciate what guys like Dirk and Duncan have done to help their teams and remain borderline elite players for so long.

Locked_Up_Tonight
11-08-2014, 11:20 AM
You keep saying that DMavs. He didn't play 30 minutes in either game. And Dirk is averaging 28 minutes so far this year. Nearly 5 minutes less than last year.

I'm telling you there will be lots of nights like last night where the Mavs win and Dirk is resting on the bench for the last 7 minutes and he won't play 30.

eklip
11-08-2014, 11:28 AM
In your head perhaps not, but some of us value defence as much as offense.
It doesn't work that way in basketball. Maybe 1vs1 basketball, but even then great offense beats great defense. I would take prime Dirk over prime KG in an 1v1 match-up.

Offensive players can take over games, they can demand the ball and like I said great offense beats great defense. Even if you put the best defenders on Durant or prime Dirk, they would still put up great numbers.

Is prime Tony Allen as good as prime Nash? Nash was a horrible defender but an elite offensive player. Tony allen is a horrible offensive player but an elite defender. Nobody would put them on the same level, but if you rank their offense and defense individually (X/10), they would be close.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 12:05 PM
In your head perhaps not, but some of us value defence as much as offense.

So Gary Payton > Magic, right?

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 02:11 PM
You keep saying that DMavs. He didn't play 30 minutes in either game. And Dirk is averaging 28 minutes so far this year. Nearly 5 minutes less than last year.

I'm telling you there will be lots of nights like last night where the Mavs win and Dirk is resting on the bench for the last 7 minutes and he won't play 30.

Of course there will be nights, but the West is just loaded...utterly loaded. It's certainly reasonable for me to think the wear and tear on a 36 year old Dirk will catch up to him.

And...it did last year. He had dead legs against the Spurs because we had to play playoff level intensity for the last month just to make it in the playoffs.

I just don't think that is repeatable again this year without an injury.

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 02:41 PM
Malone was just too inefficient in the playoffs and not known to be an elite defender like Duncan and Garnett. Someone called Malone the most consistent scorer, but he isn't if he can't keep it up in the playoffs. He's definitely the most consistent in the regular season, though. [ Malone averaged something like 24.9 in about 200 playoff games.There might be 3 or 4 forty point games in there. There were ten years where nobody looked close to holding him down. He averaged the same in the regular season as he did in the post season. That's the model of consistency.




I can't understand why people rank Garnett close to Duncan. Do people totally ignore the playoffs? Duncan was always a great go-to guy on offense. Garnett did it in his Minnesota years, but he wasn't great at it.
Their averages in their prime were eerily similar. Like I have said here many times, more similar across the board than any two greats. The biggest difference was that Duncan played for a coach that had one of the best defensive systems and offensive systems in this era. The first time KG played for good coach and a system he won it all and it was after his prime.

eklip
11-08-2014, 02:42 PM
I think the fact that Dirk plays less than 30 minutes makes his scoring average even more impressive. Also the Mavs have the 10th slowest pace right now, close to the pace of Memphis.

Out of the 25+ min players Dirk is third in points per 100 possessions, only behind Cousins and Kobe.

Points per 100 possessions this season (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=per_poss&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2015&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=ts_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=per&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_poss)

He was 8th last year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=per_poss&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=ts_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=per&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_poss), only behind Love, but ahead of Griffin/Aldridge/Davis and more efficient than all of them.

DatAsh
11-08-2014, 02:48 PM
So Gary Payton > Magic, right?

I'd say offense is a lot more important for a PG than defense. Also, Magic and Gary weren't close offensively.

T_L_P
11-08-2014, 02:53 PM
Their averages in their prime were eerily similar. Like I have said here many times, more similar across the board than any two greats. The biggest difference was that Duncan played for a coach that had one of the best defensive systems and offensive systems in this era. The first time KG played for good coach and a system he won it all and it was after his prime.

The Spurs ran one of the most vanilla offenses in the league for years. Duncan had maybe two or three prime years with an intricate offensive system

eklip
11-08-2014, 03:23 PM
Malone averaged something like 24.9 in about 200 playoff games.There might be 3 or 4 forty point games in there. There were ten years where nobody looked close to holding him down. He averaged the same in the regular season as he did in the post season. That's the model of consistency

Yes, but he did it much less efficiently. I think every star can keep up his scoring average in the playoffs if he doesn't care about being efficient. They just have to shoot more.

Karl Malone regular season:
25.0 pts on .577 TS%, 37.2 min per game

in the playoffs:
24.7 pts on .526 TS%, 41 min per game

I wouldn't call someone who so often underperformed in the playoffs "the model of consistency". He may have the greatest longevity along with Kareem and in my opinion he is the best regular season PF but not the most consistent one.

Here is Dirk in comparison.
In the regular season:
22.5 ppg on .582 TS%, 36 min per game

In the playoffs:
25.6 ppg on .579 TS, 41 min per game (almost as many points per minute and almost the same efficiency)

Duncan and Barkley also didn't have a big efficiency/scoring drop off in the playoffs.

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 04:00 PM
The Spurs ran one of the most vanilla offenses in the league for years. Duncan had maybe two or three prime years with an intricate offensive system
Doesn't matter he still was part of the best defensive system along with a coach that could be the best at offense as well. Boston had a Vanilla offense as well. And Flip was a very average coach. Pop has to be top two at worst.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 04:01 PM
I'd say offense is a lot more important for a PG than defense. Also, Magic and Gary weren't close offensively.

The point is if you'd rate their offense and defense you'd get something like this:

O:

Magic 10/10
Payton 7/10

D:

Payton 10/10
Magic 4-5/10

But Magic's offensive impact (Just as Dirk's) is hard to evaluate simply by stats...

Individual Offense > Individual Defense.

Superstars can impact every single possession offensively... But defensively, they may defend the guy taking the shot for the opponent like 3 times a quarter.

Lebronxrings
11-08-2014, 04:09 PM
dirk had a great night yeesterday with 27 pts i think. If duncan had done that, everyone would be screaming "BEST PF ALL TIME"

T_L_P
11-08-2014, 04:09 PM
Doesn't matter he still was part of the best defensive system along with a coach that could be the best at offense as well. Boston had a Vanilla offense as well. And Flip was a very average coach. Pop has to be top two at worst.

Of course it matters. We're comparing prime Duncan and prime Garnett as offensive players. Prime Duncan played in a hogwash offensive system that solely relied on him. The offense was: give it to Tim, go stand by the 3 point line. KG could never have handled an offense putting that much pressure on him (probably why he drifted out to the perimeter so much). And he relied on his teammates to create looks for him a lot more than Tim did.

In 08 Garnett was the clear second option on offense, so your comment about him being in a vanilla offense doesn't really apply.

Duncan was simply the more effective player. There's no other way around it. Their Playoff stats might be close (though Duncan's are clearly better, and I've explained why Popovich has nothing to do with it), but their Playoff impact really isn't. A low-post scorer and rim protector brings more value than a jumpshooter/wing defender 10 times out of 10.

I guess that's why the 6 best big men ever (Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt) were all inside-out players. Not the other way around.

Lebronxrings
11-08-2014, 04:11 PM
I think it really depends on a bunch of factors. Duncan was better than dirk because he had a great system led by coach pop who helped duncan excel there. Put dirk in there, i don't believe he would do as well. However, from a starting point with no carlisie or pop, dirk is a better player 10/10. Duncans defense gets overrated because of the system. While dirk is a better individual player, Duncan is the greatest system player of all time.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 04:12 PM
You can still heavily value defense and not think KG was considerably better than Moses. Which he just wasn't by the way. I'd take Moses actually...and I don't think that is some absurd stance even though KG was a far better defender.

We've tried to explain this to people so many times. You can't break down basketball like that. Some skills or some attributes simply mean more.

On this thinking...you'd get KG being better than Magic. KG is a sure fire 10 out of 10 defensively and a very skilled offensive player with few weaknesses. He's at least a 7...likely an 8 on offense.

Magic is a 10 on offense...and what was he on defense? A 5? A 6? At best?

Guess what...Magic Johnson was literally about twice as good of an overall basketball player than Kevin Garnett.

Again, it does not work that way.
No he was not literally "twice the player".

Magic was certainly better but this is where KG's peak goes underrated like crazy and we start exaggerating to make points..

I wonder what KG could've done with Kareem, James Worthy, Byron Scott, (older) Bob McAdoo, and Pat Riley as his coach, in an era where defensive schemes were visibly less complex. I really wonder what he would've done with that cast instead of Sam Cassell/Latrell Sprewell and Flip Saunders as his coach during his peak.

T_L_P
11-08-2014, 04:15 PM
Duncans defense gets overrated because of the system.

Ah, that old chesnut. You're like the 10th poster who has called it overrated without explaining why.

So since you know why, could you explain it? What about it is overrated?

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 04:17 PM
No he was not literally "twice the player".

Magic was certainly better but this is where KG's peak goes underrated like crazy and we start exaggerating to make points..

I wonder what KG could've done with Kareem, James Worthy, Byron Scott, (older) Bob McAdoo, and Pat Riley as his coach, in an era where defensive schemes were visibly less complex. I really wonder what he would've done with that cast instead of Sam Cassell/Latrell Sprewell and Flip Saunders as his coach during his peak.

In the 1980's? Probably not much except for a year or so..

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 04:20 PM
Duncan is a top 10 ATG defender, stop it....

Tim Duncan was the anchor of a top-3 defense EVERY year from his rookie season to 2008. AND he was the focal-point on offense.

KG won DPOTY for something Duncan did 8 times already :oldlol:

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 04:34 PM
In the 1980's? Probably not much except for a year or so..
Look to first games of his time in Boston to get a glimpse of what could’ve been, had he had the help and coaching of other ATGs earlier in his career.

In his first 30 games with Boston he was putting up 19/10/4/2/2 on 60% TS, with all time great defense, and Boston went 28-3 in that span (not that it matters but that’s a 74 win pace)…and this was 31 year old KG exiting his prime. Peak KG on that team might've made them the GOAT team.

If KG was given the level of talent around him that guys like Magic had with Kareem/Worthy/Scott/McAdoo/Riley, Bird with McHale/Parish/DJ, Kobe with Shaq/Phil and Gasol/Odom/Bynum, Jordan with Pip/Rodman/Kukoc/Phil, or Lebron with Wade/Bosh and now with Love/Irving...we could’ve seen one of the greatest careers ever taken to another level entirely.

People underestimate the impact of a good supporting cast and elite coach. It makes everything easier on both ends of the floor..opens up the floor when you have shooters and elite creators on the perimeter, takes pressure off defensively when you have guys who can lock their guy up, more freedom in late game situations when you have another guy you can go to that defenses need to be aware of. Flip is a good coach but we’re deluding ourselves if we’re gonna say his impact is even close to that of some of the GOAT coaches these other ATGs have had.

KG carried those TWolves teams on both ends of the floor..like I mentioned earlier..in that 2004 season when KG was on the floor, they were around the 3rd best offense, by far the worst in the league when he was off. On defense..5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench. You give him a coach like Pat Riley, Pop, Phil, even Sloan or Doc/Thibs earlier in his career..and a legitimate star or HOF teammate like other ATGs had..KG’s career could’ve been comparable to Duncan’s.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 04:36 PM
No he was not literally "twice the player".

Magic was certainly better but this is where KG's peak goes underrated like crazy and we start exaggerating to make points..

I wonder what KG could've done with Kareem, James Worthy, Byron Scott, (older) Bob McAdoo, and Pat Riley as his coach, in an era where defensive schemes were visibly less complex. I really wonder what he would've done with that cast instead of Sam Cassell/Latrell Sprewell and Flip Saunders as his coach during his peak.

I said about. I have no idea where I would actually quantify it, but it wouldn't be close...

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 04:39 PM
I said about. I have no idea where I would actually quantify it, but it wouldn't be close...
Except that it would be close..you can't quantify it because it's just not true. Magic was on another level offensively and KG was on another planet defensively..overall Magic has the certain edge but saying it's not even close and disregarding context is blatant disrespect to one of the best 2-way impact players the game has ever seen. KG's impact at his peak was ****ing absurd and I have zero doubts that if you give younger KG guys like Kareem, Worthy, Byron Scott, McAdoo, and a coach like Pat Riley he'd have one of the greatest careers ever.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 04:42 PM
Except that it would be close..you can't quantify it because it's just not true. Magic was on another level offensively and KG was on another planet defensively..overall Magic has the certain edge but saying it's not even close and disregarding context is blatant disrespect to one of the best 2-way impact players the game has ever seen. KG's impact at his peak was ****ing absurd and I have zero doubts that if you give younger KG guys like Kareem, Worthy, Byron Scott, McAdoo, and a coach like Pat Riley he'd have one of the greatest careers ever.

Nah...not close for me at all.

I'm not basing it on rings or anything like that. I'm basing it on watching each of their entire careers...

You are getting confused by saying just because KG might win titles with that help...that makes him close to Magic as a basketball player. Flawed logic.

You are over-rating KG pretty hugely here. He was great, but he was not close to Magic as a player. No amount of team accomplishments would ever change that.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 04:44 PM
Look to first games of his time in Boston to get a glimpse of what could’ve been, had he had the help and coaching of other ATGs earlier in his career.

In his first 30 games with Boston he was putting up 19/10/4/2/2 on 60% TS, with all time great defense, and Boston went 28-3 in that span (not that it matters but that’s a 74 win pace)…and this was 31 year old KG exiting his prime. Peak KG on that team might've made them the GOAT team.

If KG was given the level of talent around him that guys like Magic had with Kareem/Worthy/Scott/McAdoo/Riley, Bird with McHale/Parish/DJ, Kobe with Shaq/Phil and Gasol/Odom/Bynum, Jordan with Pip/Rodman/Kukoc/Phil, or Lebron with Wade/Bosh and now with Love/Irving...we could’ve seen one of the greatest careers ever taken to another level entirely.

People underestimate the impact of a good supporting cast and elite coach. It makes everything easier on both ends of the floor..opens up the floor when you have shooters and elite creators on the perimeter, takes pressure off defensively when you have guys who can lock their guy up, more freedom in late game situations when you have another guy you can go to that defenses need to be aware of. Flip is a good coach but we’re deluding ourselves if we’re gonna say his impact is even close to that of some of the GOAT coaches these other ATGs have had.

KG carried those TWolves teams on both ends of the floor..like I mentioned earlier..in that 2004 season when KG was on the floor, they were around the 3rd best offense, by far the worst in the league when he was off. On defense..5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench. You give him a coach like Pat Riley, Pop, Phil, even Sloan or Doc/Thibs earlier in his career..and a legitimate star or HOF teammate like other ATGs had..KG’s career could’ve been comparable to Duncan’s.


Meh...means little to me.

You could put so many guys on teams with Rondo, Pierce, Allen and those loaded Celtics squads coached by Doc and they would have a ton of success and win. That means very little to me...doesn't make a player any better than he actually was/is.

So I think that is a flawed argument. You are assuming people rank Magic or Duncan or Dirk over KG because of team accomplishments. Perhaps some do, but I don't. I rank them over KG based on their impact on the court. Magic and Duncan are no brainers for me...Dirk is close.

I completely agree that circumstances dictate team accomplishments largely, but I don't think that changes how good a player actually is. And KG certainly never did anything like Duncan did in 03 or Dirk did in 11. Not like all of the best players ever were gifted loaded teams every year like you lead on. Dirk certainly wasn't...

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 04:51 PM
KG wasn't known as a defensive stopper until he exclusively dedicated himself to it in Boston... That was by the way also an all-around great defensive team.

It's not like he elavated mediocre defensive teams to top 10 defensive teams in Minnesota... He didn't. That would be David Robinson level impact.

Duncan's prime and peak is a good bit longer and better than KG's... And even Duncan I wouldn't place with Magic, and he has huge 2-sided value.

While Timmy dominated the low block, KG settled for jumpers. KG TO MAGIC? Really not that close... Titles or not. Greats win with stacked teams. Like it was mentioned, even the '08 Celtics.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Meh...means little to me.

You could put so many guys on teams with Rondo, Pierce, Allen and those loaded Celtics squads coached by Doc and they would have a ton of success and win. That means very little to me...doesn't make a player any better than he actually was/is.

So I think that is a flawed argument. You are assuming people rank Magic or Duncan or Dirk over KG because of team accomplishments. Perhaps some do, but I don't. I rank them over KG based on their impact on the court. Magic and Duncan are no brainers for me...Dirk is close.

I completely agree that circumstances dictate team accomplishments largely, but I don't think that changes how good a player actually is. And KG certainly never did anything like Duncan did in 03 or Dirk did in 11. Not like all of the best players ever were gifted loaded teams every year like you lead on. Dirk certainly wasn't...
What exactly is your argument for saying Magic is so far ahead of KG? It's only a no brainer in that he's better...it being not even close is far from a no brainer. It's just not true if we attribute the value to defense that it deserves.

We

tpols
11-08-2014, 05:00 PM
KG wasn't known as a defensive stopper until he exclusively dedicated himself to it in Boston...

Dude.. Just stop posting.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:02 PM
KG wasn't known as a defensive stopper until he exclusively dedicated himself to it in Boston... That was by the way also an all-around great defensive team.

It's not like he elavated mediocre defensive teams to top 10 defensive teams in Minnesota... He didn't. That would be David Robinson level impact.

Duncan's prime and peak is a good bit longer and better than KG's... And even Duncan I wouldn't place with Magic, and he has huge 2-sided value.

While Timmy dominated the low block, KG settled for jumpers. KG TO MAGIC? Really not that close... Titles or not. Greats win with stacked teams. Like it was mentioned, even the '08 Celtics.
This is getting ridiculous :oldlol:

Seriously, what the ****.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 05:06 PM
[QUOTE=Milbuck]What exactly is your argument for saying Magic is so far ahead of KG? It's only a no brainer in that he's better...it being not even close is far from a no brainer. It's just not true if we attribute the value to defense that it deserves.

We

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 05:11 PM
The T-Wolves were a top-10 defensive team once during KG's tenure there... I guess you were misinformed here, but I'm not lying. This is a fact.

rmt
11-08-2014, 05:13 PM
I think it really depends on a bunch of factors. Duncan was better than dirk because he had a great system led by coach pop who helped duncan excel there. Put dirk in there, i don't believe he would do as well. However, from a starting point with no carlisie or pop, dirk is a better player 10/10. Duncans defense gets overrated because of the system. While dirk is a better individual player, Duncan is the greatest system player of all time.


Duncan was better than Dirk because Duncan is an all-time great defender (listen to Lebron's and Spo's interviews this past Finals regarding Spurs' defense). Duncan holds the all-time playoff records for blocks and defensive rebounds and is second all-time behind Bill Russell in Defensive Win Shares - but according to you, that's all because of Pop's system.

People see the Spurs now and rave about the system forgetting that for many years, Duncan was the system.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:32 PM
My argument is that Magic was just an objectively far better basketball player. I think we tend to over-rate individual defense here actually. Defense is very important, but the truth is that a team can play elite defense without having elite defenders all over the court.

I think Magic managed and controlled the game better than anyone ever. He got the most out of his teammates out of anyone I've ever seen as well. He's a guy that still somehow gets you 60 plus wins without Kareem in 90 iirc.

KG just couldn't have an offense consistently run through him in a way that I think is of paramount importance to winning in the playoffs in the NBA.

It's not really anything that is wrong with KG...it's just that a guy like Magic was a true master of his craft. Magic would be my 3rd pick in the history of basketball players if I was starting a team.

KG would be somewhere towards 20 or so.

Call that what you want. I call it not remotely close.

If I was drafting players to start a team...and my options were Magic or KG. I just don't even think. It's not close for me. I don't know how to be any clearer.

This could be a semantical issue, but I think you get my point.
How does that not apply to offense? You could lack elite offensive players and still have an elite offense with brilliant coaching, leadership, and unselfishness. It works both ways...but it doesn't negate the impact of an elite defensive anchor for defense, or the impact of an elite floor general on offense.

And if we

D.J.
11-08-2014, 05:32 PM
You can compare Duncan and Garnett statistically, but that's where it ends. When it comes to measuring actual value, that's a whole nother beast. Duncan is a defensive anchor, dominant post player who protects the rim and has frequently shut down great big men on the opposition. Garnett is a better shooter with more range, is better at handling the ball, and is better at filling up the stat sheet. But he's not at all a dominant post defender and often struggled against even a 23-24 year old Dirk.

Bottom line is a dominant post presence who protects the rim and shuts down opposing bigs brings significantly more value than a jump shooting big man. That's why guys like Duncan and Malone get the nod over guys like Garnett and Dirk.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 05:34 PM
[QUOTE=Milbuck]How does that not apply to offense? You could lack elite offensive players and still have an elite offense with brilliant coaching, leadership, and unselfishness. It works both ways...but it doesn't negate the impact of an elite defensive anchor for defense, or the impact of an elite floor general on offense.

And if we

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:34 PM
You can compare Duncan and Garnett statistically, but that's where it ends. When it comes to measuring actual value, that's a whole nother beast. Duncan is a defensive anchor, dominant post player who protects the rim and has frequently shut down great big men on the opposition. Garnett is a better shooter with more range, is better at handling the ball, and is better at filling up the stat sheet. But he's not at all a dominant post defender and often struggled against even a 23-24 year old Dirk.

Bottom line is a dominant post presence who protects the rim and shuts down opposing bigs brings significantly more value than a jump shooting big man. That's why guys like Duncan and Malone get the nod over guys like Garnett and Dirk.Except that KG is a better rim protector and defender than Malone and it's not even close. And this is an instance where "not even close" actually applies.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:40 PM
I don't think it applies to offense as much actually...LOL...that is my point.

I think being able to run an entire offense through a guy like Magic or Dirk in playoff runs is more valuable than the individual defense of a Garnett or Hakeem...etc.
But it still does.

And I guess we just can't agree on this. My point is that you are leaning way too heavily on the offensive side of things on the offense > defense mentality. I don't disagree with that view but you're clearly underrating the shit out of KG's defensive impact.

And you're acting like KG's offense is garbage. He was a 24/6 player at his peak offensively with great versatility and GOAT level passing for his position. He wasn't Magic or Dirk..but he was still a great, great offensive forward. Give him someone like Ray Allen to space the floor and take some of the scoring burden off..or Nash to feed him and his teammates..and there's zero problems offensively.

Not being able to run an elite offense through peak KG is just a myth that has been inflated by years of him playing with a shit cast that peaked with Cassell/Sprewell/Sczerbiak, and coaching that wasn't good enough to compensate for it.

D.J.
11-08-2014, 05:41 PM
Except that KG is a better rim protector and defender than Malone and it's not even close. And this is an instance where "not even close" actually applies.


Garnett often camped out to the perimeter. That's not what a rim protector does. Grabbing more rebounds doesn't make one a better defender or protector. David Lee and Kevin Love prove that. You can't call Garnett a better protector and defender when 23 year old Dirk was lighting him up.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:42 PM
Garnett often camped out to the perimeter. That's not what a rim protector does. Grabbing more rebounds doesn't make one a better defender or protector. David Lee and Kevin Love prove that. You can't call Garnett a better protector and defender when 23 year old Dirk was lighting him up.
Kevin Love and David Lee?

Seriously?

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 05:43 PM
But it still does.

And I guess we just can't agree on this. My point is that you are leaning way too heavily on the offensive side of things on the offense > defense mentality. I don't disagree with that view but you're clearly underrating the shit out of KG's defensive impact.

And you're acting like KG's offense is garbage. He was a 24/6 player at his peak offensively with versatility and GOAT level passing for his position. He wasn't Magic or Dirk..but he was still a great, great offensive forward. Give him someone like Ray Allen to space the floor and take some of the scoring burden off..or Nash to feed him and his teammates..and there's zero problems offensively.

Not being able to run an elite offense through peak KG is just a myth that has been inflated by years of him playing with a shit cast that peaked with Cassell/Sprewell/Sczerbiak, and coaching that wasn't good enough to compensate for it.

No, I'm just not doing that at all. I'm simply saying that Magic was just a much better basketball player. Has nothing to do with under-rating KG. I rate him perfectly fine and watched him since high school actually. He's one of the 20 best players ever.

But if it's him or Magic to start a team? ROFL...only morons take KG. So in my view...that makes them not remotely close.

And your formulaic way of breaking down players leads to bad conclusions. On your view...how could anyone take Magic over Hakeem? Do you find that to be an absurd conclusion?

Because if you don't...I'd like to know how, on your thinking, one could reasonably conclude Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 05:44 PM
2002 WC 1st Round

http://i.gyazo.com/3f04c8b90a55eecda5c7c26ac1aba9a0.png

Dirk taking a big shit on Garnett.

D.J.
11-08-2014, 05:50 PM
Kevin Love and David Lee?

Seriously?


David Lee
11.7 RPG- 108 defensive rating/3.1 defensive win shares
11.7 RPG- 108 defensive rating/2.9 defensive win shares
11.2 RPG- 104 defensive rating/3.7 defensive win shares


Kevin Love
15.2 RPG- 108 defensive rating/2.5 defensive win shares
13.3 RPG- 104 defensive rating/2.3 defensive win shares
14.0 RPG- 102 defensive rating/0.9 defensive win shares
12.5 RPG- 104 defensive rating/3.7 defensive win shares


Love only played in 18 games in the 3rd one, but my point stands. Rebounding doesn't automatically equally rim protection and defending.

tpols
11-08-2014, 05:50 PM
When Tim Duncan won his first title in 1999 David Robinson had better advanced defensive stats across the board. Better defensive rapm.. better defensive rating.. more defensive winshares.. everything.

In 2003, AGAIN David Robinson had a higher defensive rapm than tim duncan, while having a slightly worse defensive rating.. this is past prime old david robinson with the stats proving in the spurs two title runs, he was their best defensive player.



I swear to god, everyone here acts like Tim Duncan was by himself on defense, but he had a top 2 coach, a slew of great defensive guards, and one of the GOAT center rim protectors by his side when the spurs were dominant defensively in the early 2000s.

Then in the mid 2000s he had tony parker and especially manu ginobili blowing up, and then of course in todays era he has a GOAT perimeter passing offensive team. Its criminal how underrated his supporting casts have been on both sides of the ball(especially his defensive help in the early 2000s). He literally might have had the most help of all time if you look at everyones careers beginning to end.


But back to defense. If you look at all the advanced defensive stats.. KG and tim duncan are near neck and neck. TD is slightly better, but its like a 5% statistical difference at absolute most.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:52 PM
No, I'm just not doing that at all. I'm simply saying that Magic was just a much better basketball player. Has nothing to do with under-rating KG. I rate him perfectly fine and watched him since high school actually. He's one of the 20 best players ever.

But if it's him or Magic to start a team? ROFL...only morons take KG. So in my view...that makes them not remotely close.

And your formulaic way of breaking down players leads to bad conclusions. On your view...how could anyone take Magic over Hakeem? Do you find that to be an absurd conclusion?

Because if you don't...I'd like to know how, on your thinking, one could reasonably conclude Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem.
"Formulaic way of thinking"...and yet you're using a freaking draft scenario to compare them as players, avoiding all semblance of context, stats, and sufficient consideration of the other end of the floor just because "you wouldn't draft KG that high in an all time draft".

I'm curious to know where you'd draft Duncan. If you have KG at 20 I'm positive your logic would make it "not even close" between Duncan and KG for you, even though every rational semi intelligent basketball fan who has watched and observed both players will tell you that absolute peak KG is close to peak Duncan. Very close.

Similarly if the option to draft Lebron or Magic came to me..I would pick Lebron 10 times out of 10 and I wouldn't even second guess it. Zero doubt. But that doesn't mean they aren't close as players.

This is an extremely narrow minded way of thinking..just because you wouldn't draft KG close to Magic in an all time draft doesn't mean jack shit about who they are as players from an impact perspective. And you have not once truly addressed the context of the comparison, about how KG for the first 12 years of his career played with zero other HOFers the way Magic did not even clear-cut stars, for a coach vastly inferior, on one of the worst franchises in NBA history while Magic played for one of the best in sports history. If you don't think who you play around, who you're coached by, and how your franchise builds around you matters at all....I don't know what to tell you.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 05:54 PM
"Formulaic way of thinking"...and yet you're using a freaking draft scenario to compare them as players, avoiding all semblance of context, stats, and sufficient consideration of the other end of the floor just because "you wouldn't draft KG that high in an all time draft".

I'm curious to know where you'd draft Duncan. If you have KG at 20 I'm positive "it's not even close" between Duncan and KG for you even though every rational semi intelligent basketball fan will tell you that absolute peak KG is close to peak Duncan. Very close.

Similarly if the option to draft Lebron or Magic came to me..I would pick Lebron 10 times out of 10 and I wouldn't even second guess it. Zero doubt. But that doesn't mean they aren't close as players.

This is an extremely narrow minded way of thinking..just because you wouldn't draft KG close to Magic in an all time draft doesn't mean jack shit about who they are as players from an impact perspective. And you have not once truly addressed the context of the comparison, about how KG for the first 12 years of his career played with zero other HOFers the way Magic did, for a coach vastly inferior, on one of the worst franchises in NBA history while Magic played for one of the best in sports history. If you don't think who you play around, who you're coached by, and how your franchise builds around you matters at all....I don't know what to tell you.

My draft position takes everything into account. Literally everything. It's the most broad way of thinking possible.

I said KG would be towards 20. I don't know exactly where I'd put him.


Again, please answer Magic vs Hakeem. Who was better?

The other stuff you are saying is just noise. You keep assuming I like Magic so much because he won titles...while I keep telling you that isn't even a factor for me honestly.

D.J.
11-08-2014, 05:57 PM
When Tim Duncan won his first title in 1999 David Robinson had better advanced defensive stats across the board. Better defensive rapm.. better defensive rating.. more defensive winshares.. everything.

In 2003, AGAIN David Robinson had a higher defensive rapm than tim duncan, while having a slightly worse defensive rating.. this is past prime old david robinson with the stats proving in the spurs two title runs, he was their best defensive player.



I swear to god, everyone here acts like Tim Duncan was by himself on defense, but he had a top 2 coach, a slew of great defensive guards, and one of the GOAT center rim protectors by his side when the spurs were dominant defensively in the early 2000s.

Then in the mid 2000s he had tony parker and especially manu ginobili blowing up, and then of course in todays era he has a GOAT perimeter passing offensive team.


But back to defense. If you look at all the advanced defensive stats.. KG and tim duncan are near neck and neck. TD is slightly better, but its like a 5% statistical difference at absolute most.


Duncan in 2003 won a title with Robinson playing only 26 MPG(23 in the playoffs) and won a title in 2005 with 23 year old Tony Parker and a bunch of role players outside of Parker and Ginobili. Then he won 2 more titles after that and made the Finals 3 more times. Yes, Popovich is the greatest coach not named Phil Jackson.

What yourself and many other posters fail to realize is that stats =/= actual value. You can't measure a player's value solely through stats. Bruce Bowen never averaged more than 8.2 PPG in any season, yet was consistently guarding players like Kobe, Ray Allen, and Vince Carter because he was one of the best and most underrated perimeter defenders of his time and got in people's heads.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 05:57 PM
My draft position takes everything into account. Literally everything. It's the most broad way of thinking possible.

I said KG would be towards 20. I don't know exactly where I'd put him.


Again, please answer Magic vs Hakeem. Who was better?

The other stuff you are saying is just noise. You keep assuming I like Magic so much because he won titles...while I keep telling you that isn't even a factor for me honestly.
I'll address Hakeem and Magic as soon as you address my points, which you refuse to address thoroughly and just dismiss as "noise".

For the bolded I've said it has absolutely nothing to do with titles. You keep bringing this up as if it's the basis of my argument when it is absolutely NOT.

I've said repeatedly that the players around you talent-wise and the ability of your coach has a TON to do with who you are as a player.

Answer me this: do you seriously think having other HOFers on your team and a brilliant ATG coach running things has nothing to do with how well your game flourishes on a team, how well your skills are utilized, how well your game translates into impact on the floor?

Because I know that KG's impact in spite of not having a fraction of what Magic had in that regard, was incredible. Statistically and observably, incredible.

Also, what about Duncan's position in your all-encompassing draft? If you'd have KG at 20 surely you don't consider KG and Duncan even close as players considering where you probably have Duncan in your draft, correct?

T_L_P
11-08-2014, 06:00 PM
When Tim Duncan won his first title in 1999 David Robinson had better advanced defensive stats across the board. Better defensive rapm.. better defensive rating.. more defensive winshares.. everything.

In 2003, AGAIN David Robinson had a higher defensive rapm than tim duncan, while having a slightly worse defensive rating.. this is past prime old david robinson with the stats proving in the spurs two title runs, he was their best defensive player.



I swear to god, everyone here acts like Tim Duncan was by himself on defense, but he had a top 2 coach, a slew of great defensive guards, and one of the GOAT center rim protectors by his side when the spurs were dominant defensively in the early 2000s.

Then in the mid 2000s he had tony parker and especially manu ginobili blowing up, and then of course in todays era he has a GOAT perimeter passing offensive team. Its criminal how underrated his supporting casts have been on both sides of the ball(especially his defensive help in the early 2000s). He literally might have had the most help of all time if you look at everyones careers beginning to end.


But back to defense. If you look at all the advanced defensive stats.. KG and tim duncan are near neck and neck. TD is slightly better, but its like a 5% statistical difference at absolute most.

So, with all that said, 03 Robinson > 03 Kobe?

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:01 PM
I'll address Hakeem and Magic as soon as you address my points, which you refuse to address thoroughly and just dismiss as "noise".

For the bolded I've said it has absolutely nothing to do with titles. You keep bringing this up as if it's the basis of my argument when it is absolutely NOT.

I've said repeatedly that the players around you talent-wise and the ability of your coach has a TON to do with who you are as a player.

Answer me this: do you seriously think having other HOFers on your team and a brilliant ATG coach running things has nothing to do with how well your game flourishes on a team, how well your skills are utilized, how well your game translates into impact on the floor?

Because I know that KG's impact in spite of not having a fraction of what Magic had in that regard, was incredible. Statistically and observably, incredible.

I've been talking about how much circumstances matter on here for years. So again I don't follow you here. I've been arguing how much winning and players individually are impacted by circumstances for years.

I also think that after watching a player play for about 20 years now...you get a really good idea of what type of player they really are. And for me, Magic Johnson was just a considerably better basketball player than KG.

LOL...I know you disagree, but I need to know how you think in other examples.

And I think your answer about Magic vs Hakeem will shed some light on this.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:03 PM
Duncan in 2003 won a title with Robinson playing only 26 MPG(23 in the playoffs) and won a title in 2005 with 23 year old Tony Parker and a bunch of role players outside of Parker and Ginobili. Then he won 2 more titles after that and made the Finals 3 more times. Yes, Popovich is the greatest coach not named Phil Jackson.

What yourself and many other posters fail to realize is that stats =/= actual value. You can't measure a player's value solely through stats. Bruce Bowen never averaged more than 8.2 PPG in any season, yet was consistently guarding players like Kobe, Ray Allen, and Vince Carter because he was one of the best and most underrated perimeter defenders of his time and got in people's heads.

Man defense is certainly the hardest thing to guage with defensive stats like rapm. Because its very situational and presents itself only now and then when a guy like bowen happens to play a superstar and shut him down. That being said bowen has standout defensive stats for a guard.

But team defense is definitely reflected in these stats.

I encourage you to look at this. (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/)

Youll find that all the best big man 'team' defenders are near the top.. and KG was right there with tim duncan year after year as the best defenders in the league along with ben wallace. I dont think its a coincidence those 3 are paired together in the data.

T_L_P
11-08-2014, 06:04 PM
Man defense is certainly the hardest thing to guage with defensive stats like rapm. Because its very situational and presents itself only now and then when a guy like bowen happens to play a superstar and shut him down. That being said bowen has standout defensive stats.

But team defense is definitely reflected in these stats.

I encourage you to look at this. (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/)

Youll find that all the best big man 'team' defenders are near the top.. and KG was right there with tim duncan year after year as the best defenders in the league along with ben wallace. I dont think its a coincidence those 3 are paired together in the data.

You know something? Robinson was the best defender on the 99 squad. But 03? Were you joking with that?

fpliii
11-08-2014, 06:05 PM
No, I'm just not doing that at all. I'm simply saying that Magic was just a much better basketball player. Has nothing to do with under-rating KG. I rate him perfectly fine and watched him since high school actually. He's one of the 20 best players ever.

But if it's him or Magic to start a team? ROFL...only morons take KG. So in my view...that makes them not remotely close.

And your formulaic way of breaking down players leads to bad conclusions. On your view...how could anyone take Magic over Hakeem? Do you find that to be an absurd conclusion?

Because if you don't...I'd like to know how, on your thinking, one could reasonably conclude Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem.
As someone who would take both Garnett and Hakeem over Magic, I'll embrace the "moron" classification proudly. :cheers:

D.J.
11-08-2014, 06:06 PM
Man defense is certainly the hardest thing to guage with defensive stats like rapm. Because its very situational and presents itself only now and then when a guy like bowen happens to play a superstar and shut him down. That being said bowen has standout defensive stats for a guard.

But team defense is definitely reflected in these stats.

I encourage you to look at this. (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/)

Youll find that all the best big man 'team' defenders are near the top.. and KG was right there with tim duncan year after year as the best defenders in the league along with ben wallace. I dont think its a coincidence those 3 are paired together in the data.


No one's saying KG is a bad defender. We're just saying he's not this rim protector some think he is. Some things just can't be measured through stats. And stats can also be misleading. Ben Wallace is Ben Wallace though. 4 DPOYs in 5 years speaks for itself.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:09 PM
You know something? Robinson was the best defender on the 99 squad. But 03? Were you joking with that?

I should rephrase that.. Tim Duncan had more impact because he played more. But when on the court David Robinson was more efficient defensively.

Regardless, we have guys in here like arbitrary water claiming KG was never a great defender before 2008 because minny only was top 10 defense once.. but he isnt accounting for their difference in defensive HELP.

Tim Duncan literally had the best defensive help in the league while KG had the worst. Its like comparing playing offense with shaq to kwame.


No one's saying KG is a bad defender. We're just saying he's not this rim protector some think he is. Some things just can't be measured through stats. And stats can also be misleading. Ben Wallace is Ben Wallace though. 4 DPOYs in 5 years speaks for itself.

Tim Duncan has less DPOYs than KG.. so I dont think you want to use that argument here.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 06:11 PM
I've been talking about how much circumstances matter on here for years. So again I don't follow you here. I've been arguing how much winning and players individually are impacted by circumstances for years.

I also think that after watching a player play for about 20 years now...you get a really good idea of what type of player they really are. And for me, Magic Johnson was just a considerably better basketball player than KG.

LOL...I know you disagree, but I need to know how you think in other examples.

And I think your answer about Magic vs Hakeem will shed some light on this.
You say you value it yet in this discussion you dismiss it completely. So I'm not really seeing it.

What you're arguing is just a more eloquent version of the "eye test" argument. You really haven't provided any evidence whatsoever to support your position.

Sorry dude, but essentially all quantifiable evidence points to peak KG being one of the highest impact players ever, close if not right there with someone like Duncan, who I'd absolutely 100% consider close to Magic as an overall impact player. No amount of dismissing context and throwing out irrelevant narratives like Magic "mastered his craft" can deny that.

And I'll answer your Magic/Hakeem question, because it seems clear to me that you want no part in mentioning your ranking of Duncan in your all time draft. If I'm starting a team I'm taking Hakeem.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 06:12 PM
As someone who would take both Garnett and Hakeem over Magic, I'll embrace the "moron" classification proudly. :cheers:
Be honest fpliii, call me an idiot if you please..Am I off base in valuing KG's defensive impact the way I do? In thinking that peak KG is close to Magic as an overall impact player (not that he's better, because I think Magic is, but that it's close)?

D.J.
11-08-2014, 06:12 PM
Tim Duncan has less DPOYs than KG.. so I dont think you want to use that argument here.


It doesn't invalidate my argument.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:14 PM
Be honest fpliii, call me an idiot if you please..Am I off base in valuing KG's defensive impact the way I do? In thinking that peak KG is close to Magic as an overall impact player (not that he's better, because I think Magic is, but that it's close)?

dmavs is very selective with his stats..

If you start talking about Kobe, hell be the first to talk about how his drapm was always nuetral and he doesnt deserve to be called a good defender, but when topic of KG comes up, all of a sudden his standout advanced defensive stats dont matter and hes not close to guys like duncan.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:16 PM
It doesn't invalidate my argument.

You said stats are misleading and brought up awards as justification..

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 06:16 PM
Be honest fpliii, call me an idiot if you please..Am I off base in valuing KG's defensive impact the way I do? In thinking that peak KG is close to Magic as an overall impact player (not that he's better, because I think Magic is, but that it's close)?

There's no need to get sensitive and ask for back-up here.. You just heard fpliii's opinion.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:17 PM
You say you value it yet in this discussion you dismiss it completely. So I'm not really seeing it.

What you're arguing is just a more eloquent version of the "eye test" argument. You really haven't provided any evidence whatsoever to support your position.

Sorry dude, but essentially all quantifiable evidence points to peak KG being one of the highest impact players ever, close if not right there with someone like Duncan, who I'd absolutely 100% consider close to Magic as an overall impact player. No amount of dismissing context and throwing out irrelevant narratives like Magic "mastered his craft" can deny that.

And I'll answer your Magic/Hakeem question, because it seems clear to me that you want no part in mentioning your ranking of Duncan in your all time draft. If I'm starting a team I'm taking Hakeem.

At least you are consistent. I'd definitely take Magic over Hakeem starting a team...so well...we just very much disagree about how good some of these guys were.

Of course I'm using the eye-test as part of this. I'm not going to type out everything to you.

I've already hit the main points. Magic's offense, leadership, and ability to get the most out of his teammates trumps KG's defense and versatility.

KG's biggest weakness is a big one for me...the inability (in my opinion) to have an offense continuously run through him night in night out. That isn't to say it couldn't happen...just not at the level I think it would need to for him to be as good as you think it was.

KG to me was a fantastic player, but he just wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem...etc.

I also think you are looking to much into KG's stats...a big part of his absurd stats in his prime/peak on Minny is actually playing with less help and having the ball in his hands a lot.

You can't have that both ways. You can't rave about his numbers...while also saying he had no help. His lack of help led to his huge numbers.

And it's not just an anti KG bias or something. I don't think Dirk was close to Magic.

Do you think Dirk was close to Magic? Because the hell if I'm going to sit here and listen to someone try to claim KG and Dirk aren't close...so you either under-rate the shit out of Magic...or your over-rate the shit out of KG. Not sure which one it is yet....although I'm sure you'll tell me Dirk is a product of playing with great players like Jason Terry and Josh Howard...etc.

D.J.
11-08-2014, 06:17 PM
You said stats are misleading and brought up awards as justification..


Never justified anything and you insinuated that. It's kinda hard to look past an award that was one by a player 4 out of 5 years. This wasn't 1 or 2 times.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:18 PM
dmavs is very selective with his stats..

If you start talking about Kobe, hell be the first to talk about how his drapm was always nuetral and he doesnt deserve to be called a good defender, but when topic of KG comes up, all of a sudden his standout advanced defensive stats dont matter and hes not close to guys like duncan.

Exactly the opposite you clown. The difference, for me, between Duncan and KG would be offense...not defense.

I prefer Duncan's ability on defense a little bit more, but it's basically a wash. It's Duncan's interior play and ability to carry an offense in a way I don't think KG really could/did that puts Duncan over him for me.

As usual...tpols making shit up and misrepresenting views. Nothing has changed.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 06:20 PM
Dammit tpols.. Why are you making personal attacks on DMAVS? I thought you had a somewhat respectable relationship between each other, mainly due to his effort.. It's rare on ISH between guys who disagree alot. And now you ruined it.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Where did I write a personal attack? If you want to see personal attacks look in his post.


Exactly the opposite you clown. The difference, for me, between Duncan and KG would be offense...not defense.

I prefer Duncan's ability on defense a little bit more, but it's basically a wash. It's Duncan's interior play and ability to carry an offense in a way I don't think KG really could/did that puts Duncan over him for me.

As usual...tpols making shit up and misrepresenting views. Nothing has changed.


Your opinions dont make sense because you say Magic is twice the player KG is, while Duncan is pretty much on magics level.. is duncan twice the player KG is then?

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 06:29 PM
"Clown" ?

I'd get upset too if I try to make an effort to keep a clean relationship between me and another poster, and then that guy goes on to say stuff like "Oh look, X (DMAVS) doing this again... He always does this"

I think it's more honorable if you properly write stuff like that @ the guy himself..

Eh, its between you.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:29 PM
Where did I write a personal attack? If you want to see personal attacks look in his post.




Your opinions dont make sense because you say Magic is twice the player KG is, while Duncan is pretty much on magics level.. is duncan twice the player KG is then?

I don't have Duncan that close to Magic actually as a player. Ranking their careers as Duncan continues to last forever is different.

But we are talking actual players and I don't think we were factoring in longevity...etc. At least I wasn't when I made that comment.

And I said about twice. Not exactly twice.

If you really want me to quantify it...just totally going on the fly here.

It would be something like Magic is 1.8 times better than Garnett and 1.4 times better than Duncan or something. Give or take a little.

So...actually...it makes perfect sense to distinguish ranking just a player rather than his career. Just like Kobe deserves to be ranked over some guys I just view as better players. For example...Dirk. I'd rather have Dirk on my hypothetical team than Kobe...but because Kobe's career is more deserving of being ranked higher...he gets the edge the way people rank players/careers. It's often a combination of it all...which I think is fine.

But when actually just taking two players and comparing their ability to play the game...and how they played the game for their careers...I don't think lucking into better help or worse help matters much.

So yea...it's perfectly fine and consistent.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:33 PM
I don't have Duncan that close to Magic actually as a player. Ranking their careers as Duncan continues to last forever is different.

But we are talking actual players and I don't think we were factoring in longevity...etc. At least I wasn't when I made that comment.

And I said about twice. Not exactly twice.

If you really want me to quantify it...just totally going on the fly here.

It would be something like Magic is 1.8 times better than Garnett and 1.4 times better than Duncan or something. Give or take a little.

ok.. true. I disagree, dont really see much of a difference between them. Magic got to play on offensively loaded teams to suit his style in a fast paced era.. Duncan got to play on a great defensive team to suit his style in one of the slowest bogged down era.. they both beat great teams and had similar results as leaders. KG is very close in ability to them to me, he just didnt capture a poerfect storm like they did. I guess thats how I see it.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 06:33 PM
At least you are consistent. I'd definitely take Magic over Hakeem starting a team...so well...we just very much disagree about how good some of these guys were.
I guess we do disagree. To clarify how big do you think the gap is between Hakeem and Magic?


I've already hit the main points. Magic's offense, leadership, and ability to get the most out of his teammates trumps KG's defense and versatility.
I'm not disputing Magic's value as a floor general and leader...what I AM saying is that it's a hell of a lot easier for those skills to manifest themselves into wins when you're in damn near the perfect scenario (elite offensive weapons around you as a brilliant passer/playmaker, one of the GOAT players and respected legends in Kareem to help keep people in line, ATG coach in Pat Riley to help with the same thing), than when you're being asked to do just about everything for your team like KG was in Minnesota. Magic had the platform for his game to flourish. KG didn't have anything close to that. Like I said, are we really going to be criticizing KG's ability to be the focal point of an offense if he had someone like Ray Allen who could maximize KG's passing ability and stretch defenses for KG's versatility in scoring? What about if KG had a huge, elite defensive big man to take care of the rim so that KG's defensive versatility and ability to guard all over the court could reach an entirely new level?


KG's biggest weakness is a big one for me...the inability (in my opinion) to have an offense continuously run through him night in night out. That isn't to say it couldn't happen...just not at the level I think it would need to for him to be as good as you think it was.
Again...not one person is saying KG was the ideal offensive player. But as I said above...having zero reliable star offensive players on your team doesn't make things easier.


KG to me was a fantastic player, but he just wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem...etc.

I also think you are looking to much into KG's stats...a big part of his absurd stats in his prime/peak on Minny is actually playing with less help and having the ball in his hands a lot.
So Lebron's stats in Cleveland before the decision were an illusion? He didn't actually have one of the GOAT peaks?

Anyways, it's not like he was stat padding on a bad team. His team reached the freaking conference finals and he lost to Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton...


You can't have that both ways. You can't rave about his numbers...while also saying he had no help. His lack of help led to his huge numbers.
That's the thing, I'm not talking exclusively about production numbers. We're talking about advanced metrics as well. Like how good the team was with him off the court as opposed to him on, in multiple facets of the game. These aren't inflated numbers.


And it's not just an anti KG bias or something. I don't think Dirk was close to Magic.

Do you think Dirk was close to Magic? Because the hell if I'm going to sit here and listen to someone try to claim KG and Dirk aren't close...so you either under-rate the shit out of Magic...or your over-rate the shit out of KG. Not sure which one it is yet....although I'm sure you'll tell me Dirk is a product of playing with great players like Jason Terry and Josh Howard...etc.
I'm also a Dirk fan, you're not saying anything I haven't heard before :oldlol:

I think peak KG is better than Dirk. And I think Magic is better than peak KG. But the gaps between each player is not huge. I think the gap between KG and Dirk is closer, a lot closer in fact, but that doesn't somehow mean the gap between Magic and KG absolutely HAS to be huge.


Also, what about your rank of Duncan in your draft scenario? Still curious about that.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 06:35 PM
There's no need to get sensitive and ask for back-up here.. You just heard fpliii's opinion.
Makes sense that all you can do in this thread is chime in with the occasional jab at me or other posters, you have absolutely nothing of value to offer this discussion. You already outed yourself as laughably ignorant about all of this with your earlier KG post. Not even gonna bother responding to you after this, you can go ahead and buzz around here like an obnoxious fly.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 06:36 PM
Oh, I knew you wouldn't reply to KG only having one top 10 defensive Team in Minnesota... You simply didn't know.

BTW, Spurs being no worse than top-3 in D-rtg and Opp PPG every year from '97-'08, Duncan was the anchor of at least 7 of those teams.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:40 PM
Who is denying KG's greatness though? I know the advanced metrics are amazing. Again...KG was a fantastic player...and you put him on decent to poor teams and his on/off is going to be amazing.

I'd be careful about saying KG never had help. Cassell and Sprewell played pretty damn well in 04. I think Cassell was a 20 ppg guy. That 04 team gets no respect here. While it was largely KG, it's not like he was out there with scrubs.

Look, I don't know what else you want me to say. I simply don't think KG's defensive and versatility make the gap close between him and Magic. I'm just going to have a hard time putting a career 52.5% TS player in KG near Magic Johnson...and that isn't even with the ability to have an offense consistently run through him either. That wasn't his game or personality. And that weakness, to me, creates a large gap between Magic and KG.

I know it's just 1 series, but I think that 02 series actually means something. KG had a 51% TS in that series against the Mavs. Why? The Mavs were horrid defensively. Like the 3rd worst in the league iirc. And according to you and others...Dirk is a liability on defense. So who was stopping KG? Lafrentz...an even worse defender than Dirk? Najera?????

I mean...again...not like KG didn't have help. Billups put up 22 ppg on 55% TS in that series and Wally put up 20 ppg on 58% TS.

My contention is that you would have seen a lot more of that out of KG in his career if he had deeper playoff runs...etc. You would have seen a guy giving you like 22 a game on low 50's TS. Again...with his defense...that still is all time great, but it's not Magic level.

Edit:

I'd take Duncan around 5th or so in my all time draft.

navy
11-08-2014, 06:40 PM
Hmmm....KG's defense wasnt maximized to its full potential while he was in Minny. However, if you look at KGs overall impact you an see even when he was on the floor with the nets which wasnt for long, they had the best defense or close in the nba.

KG however, isnt really your ideal first option like Duncan or Dirk could be. Even in his prime. He can be your best player though, but he's never been that type of offense player.

tpols
11-08-2014, 06:43 PM
Who is denying KG's greatness though? I know the advanced metrics are amazing. Again...KG was a fantastic player...and you put him on decent to poor teams and his on/off is going to be amazing.

I'd be careful about saying KG never had help. Cassell and Sprewell played pretty damn well in 04. I think Cassell was a 20 ppg guy. That 04 team gets no respect here. While it was largely KG, it's not like he was out there with scrubs.

Look, I don't know what else you want me to say. I simply don't think KG's defensive and versatility make the gap close between him and Magic. I'm just going to have a hard time putting a career 52.5% TS player in KG near Magic Johnson...and that isn't even with the ability to have an offense consistently run through him either. That wasn't his game or personality. And that weakness, to me, creates a large gap between Magic and KG.

Edit:

I'd take Duncan around 5th or so in my all time draft.

KG had his best defensive stats in boston.. on great teams.

Correct me if im wrong, but the only time KG ever led the league in total rapm was 2008.. the year his team was most stacked.


Also as far as 2004 went, yea they made the WCF before cassell got hurt. Thats a pretty important detail to leave out.

ArbitraryWater
11-08-2014, 06:43 PM
Szerbiak actually put up better #'s than 2013-on Wade lol


Hmmm....KG's defense wasnt maximized to its full potential while he was in Minny. However, if you look at KGs overall impact you an see even when he was on the floor with the nets which wasnt for long, they had the best defense or close in the nba.

KG however, isnt really your ideal first option like Duncan or Dirk could be. Even in his prime. He can be your best player though, but he's never been that type of offense player.

KG is like an UBER 2nd Option... Would do that perfectly.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 06:50 PM
Who is denying KG's greatness though? I know the advanced metrics are amazing. Again...KG was a fantastic player...and you put him on decent to poor teams and his on/off is going to be amazing.

I'd be careful about saying KG never had help. Cassell and Sprewell played pretty damn well in 04. I think Cassell was a 20 ppg guy. That 04 team gets no respect here. While it was largely KG, it's not like he was out there with scrubs.

Look, I don't know what else you want me to say. I simply don't think KG's defensive and versatility make the gap close between him and Magic. I'm just going to have a hard time putting a career 52.5% TS player in KG near Magic Johnson...and that isn't even with the ability to have an offense consistently run through him either. That wasn't his game or personality. And that weakness, to me, creates a large gap between Magic and KG.

Edit:

I'd take Duncan around 5th or so in my all time draft.
You could start by explaining exactly what you think the impact of an elite supporting cast and brilliant coach is on a player's game, and why you can so easily dismiss this when talking about KG's game.

Because I'm pretty sure that being surrounded by elite offensive weapons and an ATG coach matters. Matters a lot. I understand Cassell and Sprewell weren't scrubs, and that Flip Saunders wasn't a bad coach. No one said they were. But seriously, we're talking about Kareem, Worthy, Scott, McAdoo, etc with Pat Riley as his coach. Come on now.

31 year old KG was given some elite talent around him in Allen, Pierce, and Rondo, with an elite coach in Doc...guess what. They started the year 28-3 and KG was without a doubt the best player on the team. You put peak KG on that team and they're arguably the GOAT team. What I'm saying isn't anything that controversial. You take a great player and surround him with great teammates and give him a great coach...that great player's game will find another level.


Edit: And you have Duncan 5th, KG around 20. So I take it you don't think KG and Duncan are even close as players? You said you'd take Magic #3. The difference between #3 and 5 shouldn't be enough to change your stance, should it?

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:50 PM
KG had his best defensive stats in boston.. on great teams.

Correct me if im wrong, but the only time KG ever led the league in total rapm was 2008.. the year his team was most stacked.


Also as far as 2004 went, yea they made the WCF before cassell got hurt. Thats a pretty important detail to leave out.

Everyone knows they made the WCF in 04. You really need me to say that? Do you guys really not even know that?

You want me to write a book with every relevant detail in these posts? Come on now...I'm assuming you guys know a bit of NBA history here.

KG's two biggest differentials on/off came in Minnesota in 03 and 04. Considering we have been discussing peak...I see no reason to mention Boston. That clearly was not KG's peak as a player.

fpliii
11-08-2014, 06:51 PM
Be honest fpliii, call me an idiot if you please..Am I off base in valuing KG's defensive impact the way I do? In thinking that peak KG is close to Magic as an overall impact player (not that he's better, because I think Magic is, but that it's close)?
I have KG's peak ahead of Magic's. Not trolling.

I didn't start watching until Shaq's rookie year so I'm basing this opinion on what I've seen of Magic after the fact (watched as many of his Finals games as possible).

I understand that my opinion places me in the minority, but I'm pretty firmly rooted where I stand.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:55 PM
You could start by explaining exactly what you think the impact of an elite supporting cast and brilliant coach is on a player's game, and why you can so easily dismiss this when talking about KG's game.

Because I'm pretty sure that being surrounded by elite offensive weapons and an ATG coach matters. Matters a lot. I understand Cassell and Sprewell weren't scrubs, and that Flip Saunders wasn't a bad coach. No one said they were. But seriously, we're talking about Kareem, Worthy, Scott, McAdoo, etc with Pat Riley as his coach. Come on now.

31 year old KG was given some elite talent around him in Allen, Pierce, and Rondo, with an elite coach in Doc...guess what. They started the year 28-3 and KG was without a doubt the best player on the team. You put peak KG on that team and they're arguably the GOAT team. What I'm saying isn't anything that controversial. You take a great player and surround him with great teammates and give him a great coach...that great player's game will find another level.

Jesus man...stop it.

Stop acting like I'm ranking Magic ahead of KG because of help.

What I'm saying...is that you could put just about anyone around KG and I don't see him changing. He'd be an elite defensive player and a very good offensive player. Do I think he's ever going to be consistently going for 58% TS in the playoffs as the main guy? Hell no.

I don't think Magic was great because of his help. Sorry...that stuff matters and makes the game easier at times, but a player is who a player is....especially stars. Honestly...it's more role players that are impact by what role they play.

And if you put KG on a team with elite offensive options. He'd score about 15 a game....because he's not an elite offensive option himself. So he'd be 3rd in line in your hypothetical.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 06:56 PM
I have KG's peak ahead of Magic's. Not trolling.

I didn't start watching until Shaq's rookie year so I'm basing this opinion on what I've seen of Magic after the fact (watched as many of his Finals games as possible).

I understand that my opinion places me in the minority, but I'm pretty firmly rooted where I stand.

Well, if you never saw Magic play...I'd say your opinion should be taken with a grain of salt to say the least.

tpols
11-08-2014, 07:00 PM
Everyone knows they made the WCF in 04. You really need me to say that? Do you guys really not even know that?

You want me to write a book with every relevant detail in these posts? Come on now...I'm assuming you guys know a bit of NBA history here.

KG's two biggest differentials on/off came in Minnesota in 03 and 04. Considering we have been discussing peak...I see no reason to mention Boston. That clearly was not KG's peak as a player.

I was talking about cassell getting hurt.. you mentioned the one good team he had in minny but failed to mention their second best player got hurt. With Cassell healthy the whole way through they wouldve had a serious shot at a title and cassell/spree/flip saunders is certainly no manu/parker/popovich.


I dont know what you mean by on off.. Ive been talking rapm the whole time. Since that gives a regression based on their team impact on and off the court/how much they improve their offense and defense.

KG led the league in rapm in 2008 for the only time in his career, the last year of his prime.. That directly contradicts the statement 'you put him on poor teams of course his on/off is going to be amazing'. He had one of the best of his career on a stacked team.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:02 PM
Jesus man...stop it.

Stop acting like I'm ranking Magic ahead of KG because of help.

What I'm saying...is that you could put just about anyone around KG and I don't see him changing. He'd be an elite defensive player and a very good offensive player. Do I think he's ever going to be consistently going for 58% TS in the playoffs as the main guy? Hell no.

I don't think Magic was great because of his help. Sorry...that stuff matters and makes the game easier at times, but a player is who a player is....especially stars. Honestly...it's more role players that are impact by what role they play.

And if you put KG on a team with elite offensive options. He'd score about 15 a game....because he's not an elite offensive option himself. So he'd be 3rd in line in your hypothetical.
I never said you're ranking Magic over KG because of help..I'm saying you're vastly underestimating the influence of elite offensive talent around and you, and excellent coaching.

A player is who a player is..yes..but how can you not see that having players around you to make the game easier can expand your game?

If KG had someone like a Robert Parish to take care of the post so his team could use his defensive versatility more..he could cover more ground..that helps.

If KG had an elite off ball player and shooter/scorer like Ray Allen on his team to keep defenses honest and stretch the floor..that helps. It not only helps KG's scoring efficiency but it also plays directly into one of his biggest assets offensively, his GOAT level passing for his position.

These are top 15-20 players we're talking about. Their games have multiple dimensions..when you take the burden off one facet of their game, other facets of their games can shine brighter. It's really not that weird a concept.

And 31 year old KG with elite offensive weapons around him put up 19ppg on 59% TS. Yeah, peak KG would be lucky to crack 15 ppg if he had elite talent around him :facepalm

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:02 PM
I was talking about cassell getting hurt.. you mentioned the one good team he had in minny but failed to mention their second best player got hurt. With Cassell healthy the whole way through they wouldve had a serious shot at a title and cassell/spree/flip saunders is certainly no manu/parker/popovich.


I dont know what you mean by on off.. Ive been talking rapm the whole time. Since that gives a regression based on their team impact on and off the court/how much they improve their offense and defense.

KG led the league in rapm in 2008 for the only time in his career, the last year of his prime.. That directly contradicts the statement 'you put him on poor teams of course his on/off is going to be amazing'. He had one of the best of his career on a stacked team.

everyone knows Cassell got hurt. jesus...did you guys start watching the games 5 years ago when I joined.

we have never brought up Boston once. we've been talking about his peak.

which i'm assuming is the 03 and 04 seasons for most.

his on off was those years was at it's peak...followed up by Boston in 08 3rd.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:06 PM
This is just not true whatsoever. A player is who a player is..yes..but how can you not see that having players around you to make the game easier can expand your game?

If KG had someone like a Robert Parish to take care of the post so his team could his defensive versatility more..he could cover more ground..that helps.

If KG had an elite off ball player and shooter/scorer like Ray Allen on his team to keep defenses honest and stretch the floor..that helps. It not helps KG's scoring efficiency but it also plays directly into one of his biggest assets offensively, his GOAT level passing for his position.

These are top 15-20 players we're talking about. Their games have multiple dimensions..when you take the burden off facet, other facets of their games can shine brighter. It's really not that weird a concept.

And 31 year old KG with elite offensive weapons around him put up 19ppg on 59% TS. Yeah, peak KG would be lucky to crack 15 ppg if he had elite talent around him :facepalm

Dude. he put up like 19 a game in 08.

Pierce and Allen that year...I wouldn't consider either of them elite offensive players.

If you put KG on a team with two elite offensive players. He'd be the 3rd option. And he'd score around 15 or so a game give or take.

But I don't think that is the equivalent because he wouldn't be the guy offensively on those teams.

So you are just making my point for me. That KG isn't well suited to carry an offense...especially in the playoffs.

And I absolutely refute your point that you are basically trying to sneak in...which is that Magic was somehow a product of his teams. I don't think that is the case at all.

I think if Magic played with KG's level of help in his career his stats would be roughly the same...as would his game be. I could see his scoring and rebounding go up a little...assists down a little. With TS going down 1% or so.

But again that is more noise....we are comparing KG to some of the best championship first options ever. Not third options...

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:11 PM
Dude. he put up like 19 a game in 08.

Pierce and Allen that year...I wouldn't consider either of them elite offensive players.

If you put KG on a team with two elite offensive players. He'd be the 3rd option. And he'd score around 15 or so a game give or take.

But I don't think that is the equivalent because he wouldn't be the guy offensively on those teams.

So you are just making my point for me. That KG isn't well suited to carry an offense...especially in the playoffs.

And I absolutely refute your point that you are basically trying to sneak in...which is that Magic was somehow a product of his teams. I don't think that is the case at all.

I think if Magic played with KG's level of help in his career his stats would be roughly the same...as would his game be. I could see his scoring and rebounding go up a little...assists down a little. With TS going down 1% or so.

But again that is more noise....we are comparing KG to some of the best championship first options ever. Not third options...
Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in their primes (although the tail end of it) aren't elite 2nd and 3rd options? :oldlol:

Gee, I guess even when KG finally got talent around him and led a dominant team in his early 30s, it wasn't even that talented.

And the bolded is now you trying to put words in my mouth. I never said Magic was the product of his teams. Nothing of the sort.

Just that it helps quite a bit to have talent around you, and an ATG coach.

Good lord. Great players play better when surrounded by talented players. It's not that controversial.

And you likening KG to a third option is just a joke. Complete and utter joke. Peak KG with Pierce and Allen is winning the title as the #1. Clear-cut #1. He was the best in 2008 and he'd be far and away the best at his peak.

tpols
11-08-2014, 07:14 PM
everyone knows Cassell got hurt. jesus...did you guys start watching the games 5 years ago when I joined.

we have never brought up Boston once. we've been talking about his peak.

which i'm assuming is the 03 and 04 seasons for most.

his on off was those years was at it's peak...followed up by Boston in 08 3rd.

yea so if end prime KG can post league leading on off numbers on a stacked team, I dont see how peak 03/04 KG couldnt do the same on stacked teams.

His amazing on/off numbers have almost nothing to do with whether his team was poor or stacked.. theyve been amazing in both cases.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:14 PM
It's a complicated argument, but as simply as I can put it.

Magic's ability to control the game and lead offensively and get the most out of his teammates and 7% better TS in the playoffs (and under-rated defense) trumps KG's elite defense and versatility.

But honestly...I just think this is a case of a lot of you not really ever watching Magic play.

He was better than Hakeem. He was better than KG. I really don't think many that actually watched them all play would refute that.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:15 PM
yea so if end prime KG can post league leading on off numbers on a stacked team, I dont see how peak 03/04 KG couldnt do the same on stacked teams.

His amazing on/off numbers have almost nothing to do with whether his team was poor or stacked.. theyve been amazing in both cases.
Somehow 31 year old KG can put up 19ppg on 59% TS with prime Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and a slew of other quality role players on his team...and yet peak KG with elite offensive weapons around him would be a 15 ppg.

LOL

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:16 PM
yea so if end prime KG can post league leading on off numbers on a stacked team, I dont see how peak 03/04 KG couldnt do the same on stacked teams.

His amazing on/off numbers have almost nothing to do with whether his team was poor or stacked.. theyve been amazing in both cases.

i never said he couldn't..?????

I merely said his absurd on/off numbers at his peak obviously have something to do with his less than great help.

In 03 it was plus 23.6
In 04 it was plus 20.7
In 08 it was plus 11.8

If those look the same to you....keep on trucking...

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:16 PM
It's a complicated argument, but as simply as I can put it.

Magic's ability to control the game and lead offensively and get the most out of his teammates and 7% better TS in the playoffs (and under-rated defense) trumps KG's elite defense and versatility.

But honestly...I just think this is a case of a lot of you not really ever watching Magic play.

He was better than Hakeem. He was better than KG. I really don't think many that actually watched them all play would refute that.
I think we've reached the point where we just gotta agree to disagree. You're not thoroughly addressing any of my points, and just keep coming back with over generalizations of my argument or irrelevant summaries of your position that have been tackled numerous times. Before I go, I will point out that this is completely false. Not at all true..it's completely debatable and it has been debated over and over and over again.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:18 PM
Somehow 31 year old KG can put up 19ppg on 59% TS with prime Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and a slew of other quality role players on his team...and yet peak KG with elite offensive weapons around him would be a 15 ppg.

LOL

It's about his role.

How are you defining elite? Elite to me would be like Kareem at center and then someone like Wade at sg.

You were the one that brought it up. How many shots is KG getting? How many plays are being run for him?

He's gonna be a distant 3rd option playing with actual elite offensive forces in your scenario.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:20 PM
I think we've reached the point where we just gotta agree to disagree. You're not thoroughly addressing any of my points, and just keep coming back with over generalizations of my argument or irrelevant summaries of your position that have been tackled numerous times. Before I go, I will point out that this is completely false. Not at all true.

Yea...it just is.

Please show me some player rankings in which Hakeem or KG is ranked over Magic.

I am addressing your points.

You just seem to continue to think I care about titles or other non sense.

And you seem hell bent on thinking KG would just turn into some high efficient player scoring 25 a game having an offense run through him.

It's not happening. Not his game at all. Got to judge these players at least a little on what they actually do.

He's a 52.5% TS player for his career in the playoffs.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:23 PM
Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in their primes (although the tail end of it) aren't elite 2nd and 3rd options? :oldlol:

Gee, I guess even when KG finally got talent around him and led a dominant team in his early 30s, it wasn't even that talented.

And the bolded is now you trying to put words in my mouth. I never said Magic was the product of his teams. Nothing of the sort.

Just that it helps quite a bit to have talent around you, and an ATG coach.

Good lord. Great players play better when surrounded by talented players. It's not that controversial.

And you likening KG to a third option is just a joke. Complete and utter joke. Peak KG with Pierce and Allen is winning the title as the #1. Clear-cut #1. He was the best in 2008 and he'd be far and away the best at his peak.

Paul Pierce in 08 was not a ****ing all time elite offensive force.

And again...what was KG's TS???? 54.2% TS in the playoffs. Exactly what you would expect out of him given his skill set and playing with more help than he's ever had.

tpols
11-08-2014, 07:24 PM
Somehow 31 year old KG can put up 19ppg on 59% TS with prime Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and a slew of other quality role players on his team...and yet peak KG with elite offensive weapons around him would be a 15 ppg.

LOL

Yea that's just absolutely ridiculous. Ray and Pierce were both 25ppg players on their own and KG had more ppg than both of them in their title year.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:25 PM
this is the problem with circumstances going the other way. most of the time we don't value circumstances enough.

in the case of KG...his fans and proponents want to turn him into an entirely different player than he actually was and start saying he's on a level as a player he just wasn't on.

putting KG on better teams does not turn him into Hakeem. just doesn't.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:26 PM
Yea that's just absolutely ridiculous. Ray and Pierce were both 25ppg players on their own and KG had more ppg than both of them in their title year.

Please answer.

Was 08 Ray Allen and 08 Paul Pierce all time elite offensive forces?

Jesus...now we have to go nuts about scoring 20 ppg on 54% TS???????? Hilarious.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:28 PM
Yea...it just is.

Please show me some player rankings in which Hakeem or KG is ranked over Magic.

I am addressing your points.

You just seem to continue to think I care about titles or other non sense.

And you seem hell bent on thinking KG would just turn into some high efficient player scoring 25 a game having an offense run through him.

It's not happening. Not his game at all. Got to judge these players at least a little on what they actually do.

He's a 52.5% TS player for his career in the playoffs.
I hate to bring those guys up and I'm not posting the link...but go look at RealGayMen's peaks project. They have Hakeem above Magic. And as much as I don't like that place, they have some pretty intelligent and long-time bball fans there. And that's just one example..there are tons of people who think peak Hakeem > Magic.

I'm not saying Hakeem is definitively better than Magic. But you are rewriting reality if you think it's not a debatable topic, and that there's no way you could rank Hakeem as a player over Magic. It's just not true and I don't know what leads you to believe it.

And there you go again with the TS% stat, completely dismissing context. Why is it that KG was a 46% FG player in the playoffs from the time he broke out as a star to his last playoff series in Minnesota, but a 50% FG player his first couple playoffs with Boston before he got hurt? Because he finally got an elite coach and elite support around him to make the game easier for him. This stuff matters.

And while this entire discussion has shifted to offense somehow, I'd like to bring back the point that the defensive impact between KG and Magic is massive. Monumental difference. One of the most versatile and dominant defensive anchors ever vs someone who on his absolute best day was just good.

I find it incredibly lazy to just throw this aside as if it doesn't matter. That you can just casually say something like "KG's defensive impact is overrated" and act like that's the end of the discussion right there.

tpols
11-08-2014, 07:32 PM
Please answer.

Was 08 Ray Allen and 08 Paul Pierce all time elite offensive forces?

Jesus...now we have to go nuts about scoring 20 ppg on 54% TS???????? Hilarious.

Yes that's elite offensive help. Prime ray Allen and Paul Pierce is great offensive help.. They weren't perennial all stars and HOFers for their defense.

And end prime KG was still a 20ppg scorer on that team. I see no reason why peak KG couldn't do 22ish ppg on a great team. He did 20 four years removed from it..

15ppg is just laughable.. You think this guy is Ben Wallace lmao.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:34 PM
I hate to bring those guys up...but go look at RealGayMen's peaks project. They have Hakeem above Magic. And as much as I don't like that place, they have some pretty intelligent and long-time bball fans there. And that's just one example..there are tons of people who think peak Hakeem > Magic.

I'm not saying Hakeem is definitively better than Magic. But you are rewriting reality if you think it's not a debatable topic, and that there's no way you could rank Hakeem as a player over Magic. It's just not true and I don't know what leads you to believe it.

And there you go again with the TS% stat, completely dismissing context. Why is it that KG was a 46% FG player in the playoffs from the time he broke out as a star to his last playoff series in Minnesota, but a 50% FG player his first couple playoffs with Boston before he got hurt? Because he finally got an elite coach and elite support around him to make the game easier for him.

And while this entire discussion has shifted to offense somehow, I'd like to bring back the point that the defensive impact between KG and Magic is massive. Monumental difference. One of the most versatile and dominant defensive anchors ever vs someone who on his absolute best day was just good.

I find it incredibly lazy to just throw this aside as if it doesn't matter. That you can just casually say something like "KG's defensive impact is overrated" and act like that's the end of the discussion right there.

We already agree on the defense. What more do you need here? He is a top 10 defensive player of all time. Is any refuting his defensive impact?

TS is far more valid than any other efficiency metric. KG is what he is. He's not going to turn into Hakeem on offense. Never would...doesn't matter who he plays with.

We could use offensive rating....or any other offensive metric you want.

What I'm simply saying is that Magic's offensive is more valuable than KG's defensive and offensive versatility. By a wide margin.

It's why Dirk and KG are a legit debate while KG is like 3 times better defensively and a very good offensive player in his own right.

How could that be? Well, it's obvious. What Dirk is elite at simply is more valuable in the game of basketball on the individual level. It's why Nash was probably better than gary payton...and on down the list.

You obviously don't get that. And that is the huge flaw in your thinking.

I'm a big stats guy, but there isn't going to be a stat that captures the impact fully of Magic or a Dirk on offense. Too much goes unnoticed in the numbers.

You'd have to really go in depth watching video and games and sit next to each other and explain the impact each had. How Dirk's mere presence in a pick and roll just destroys KG's passing ability in terms of value. Stuff like that.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:35 PM
Yes that's elite offensive help. Prime ray Allen and Paul Pierce is great offensive help.. They weren't perennial all stars and HOFers for their defense.

And end prime KG was still a 20ppg scorer on that team. I see no reason why peak KG couldn't do 22ish ppg on a great team. He did 20 four years removed from it..

15ppg is just laughable.. You think this guy is Ben Wallace lmao.

We have different definitions of elite here. if we are comparing it to Magic level help...like Kareem etc....those guys don't qualify.

and rofl...ray allen was not in his prime at age 32 in 08....especially battling some nagging injuries from the year before where he missed a lot of games iirc.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 07:38 PM
Got to run.

Magic >>>>>>>>>>>>> KG...it's just not close

Hakeem was also considerably better than Magic...something I just don't think even you guys would refute....

Dirk > KG...now...after Dirk is doing things players at this age just rarely do.

RoundMoundOfReb
11-08-2014, 07:41 PM
top 5 for sure. Duncan is clearly number 1. Then Pettit/Dirk/KG/ in some order.

navy
11-08-2014, 07:43 PM
top 5 for sure. Duncan is clearly number 1. Then Pettit/Dirk/KG/ in some order.
You forgot Malone and Barkley. :no:

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:45 PM
We already agree on the defense. What more do you need here? He is a top 10 defensive player of all time. Is any refuting his defensive impact?

TS is far more valid than any other efficiency metric. KG is what he is. He's not going to turn into Hakeem on offense. Never would...doesn't matter who he plays with.

We could use offensive rating....or any other offensive metric you want.

What I'm simply saying is that Magic's offensive is more valuable than KG's defensive and offensive versatility. By a wide margin.

It's why Dirk and KG are a legit debate while KG is like 3 times better defensively and a very good offensive player in his own right.

How could that be? Well, it's obvious. What Dirk is elite at simply is more valuable in the game of basketball on the individual level. It's why Nash was probably better than gary payton...and on down the list.

You obviously don't get that. And that is the huge flaw in your thinking.

I'm a big stats guy, but there isn't going to be a stat that captures the impact fully of Magic or a Dirk on offense. Too much goes unnoticed in the numbers.

You'd have to really go in depth watching video and games and sit next to each other and explain the impact each had. How Dirk's mere presence in a pick and roll just destroys KG's passing ability in terms of value. Stuff like that.
This is all just you refusing to budge on a clearly exaggerated claim that "it's not even close". I don't know why you're so adamant to stick to that position when every statistical and observable measure tells you you're wrong, but it is what it is. No one aside from fpliii is saying KG is better than Magic. But you've got it ingrained in your head that Magic's offense is so otherworldly that the difference between his offense and KG's offense is big enough to not just trump KG's defensive impact, but blow it out of the water.

I swear it's like you think we're talking about Elton freaking Brand or something.

As for the unquantifiable impact...the exact same thing can be said about KG's defense. Even for all the advanced metrics that show clearly how insanely valuable KG is as a player, it still doesn't encapsulate his total impact. How much of a game changer he was on defense at his absolute best.

And to that he was a 24 ppg, 6 apg player who could stretch the floor and pass like a guard. He was a legitimate #1 option on offense who just needed another elite offensive weapon on his team to take some pressure off...I don't think that's that unreasonable when guys like Bird had McHale as an unstoppable post presence offensively, Magic had Worthy and ****ing Kareem, Kobe had Shaq and then Gasol, etc. KG was a #1 option on a championship team at 31. Give him Allen and Pierce in 2004 (as their 2008 versions) and KG is still giving you something like 23/5 on offense..because he was elite offensively. Not legendary but elite. And acting like he was some glorified third option is blatant revisionist history.

Milbuck
11-08-2014, 07:46 PM
Got to run.

Magic > KG...it's just not close

Ugh. Fixed.

Good talk.

97 bulls
11-08-2014, 07:59 PM
It's a complicated argument, but as simply as I can put it.

Magic's ability to control the game and lead offensively and get the most out of his teammates and 7% better TS in the playoffs (and under-rated defense) trumps KG's elite defense and versatility.

But honestly...I just think this is a case of a lot of you not really ever watching Magic play.

He was better than Hakeem. He was better than KG. I really don't think many that actually watched them all play would refute that.
I think you're missing his point. Magic was great but he had great players around him. Garnett had comparable talent in 08, 09, and maybe 10. Put Worthy, Scott, early 30 Jabbar in any other situation and their still 20 ppg scorers. And in Jabbar and Worthys case hofers. Can you say the same Spreewell and Cassell?

navy
11-08-2014, 08:00 PM
Seems we are using elite too loosely here. KG a great player in his own right but he was never considered elite offensively. There is a pretty long list of better offensive players than him. Some lesser players that have no business being ranked near him except when we are talking about offense alone. In fact running down the list of top PFs offensively he is near the bottom.

That being said, I think KG's set is better suited for a 2nd or 3rd option offensively. He was never the type to explode and straight up drag teams in the playoffs offensively. And he has one season above 25ppg in the playoffs.

That doesnt mean he cant lead a balanced team in scoring at like 20ppg. Or that he isnt the best player on the team, because he was/is is pretty much all the teams he has been on.

But offensively? Elite? No.

2nd or 3rd option? I dont see what's wrong with that. In fact, running down the top ten list plenty of the players werent first option material (better stated that they would be better off as 2nd or 3rd options) for some or even most their rings. Russel, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan. Well Shaq and Kobe are abit different circumstances considered.

But there is no problem regulating KG to a second or third option offensive role.

Hey Yo
11-08-2014, 08:03 PM
What I'm simply saying is that Magic's offensive is more valuable than KG's defensive and offensive versatility. By a wide margin.

Not sure about that.

KG could score from anywhere on the floor 15 - 20ft or closer. Great jumper facing the basket also with a great turnaround jumper. Great low post game.

Magic's offense consisted of getting to the post with his back to the basket. Pound the rock while working his way closer to the basket. Go for the spin around layup or look for the cutter. The current back to the basket rule would have hurt his offensive massively. Plus Magic had no jump shot whatsoever. He couldn't shoot the ball outside from the perimeter until like his 10th year in the league.

Yes, I will give him the great passing and floor general.

I would say KG's defense massively outweighs Magic's because he was horrible. To where Magic's offensive wasn't better enough than KG's to say Magic was the better all around player by a wide margin.

People rate (not implying you) Magic top 5 w/o taking his atrocious defense and no jump shot into perspective.

97 bulls
11-08-2014, 08:04 PM
To answer the question,

Duncan
Pettit
Garnett
Nowitzki
Malone

If were going strictly on what they accomplished in the NBA. I can't phathom how or why you guys are leaving out Pettit.

navy
11-08-2014, 08:07 PM
To answer the question,

Duncan
Pettit
Garnett
Nowitzki
Malone

If were going strictly on what they accomplished in the NBA. I can't phathom how or why you guys are leaving out Pettit.
He played in the 50s and 60s. Players in those eras are either elevated exponentially or "forgotten".

Why is Hondo never in any top 10 list?

Cali Syndicate
11-08-2014, 08:11 PM
1a/1b KG/Duncan
3 Dirk
4 Barkley

Duncan probably finishes ahead of KG, and Dirk can as well if he has more seasons like last year.

probably?:crazysam:

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 09:09 PM
Yes, but he did it much less efficiently. I think every star can keep up his scoring average in the playoffs if he doesn't care about being efficient. They just have to shoot more.

Karl Malone regular season:
25.0 pts on .577 TS%, 37.2 min per game

in the playoffs:
24.7 pts on .526 TS%, 41 min per game
TS % works against most GOAT big men in a big way: Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan. It was created to level the field for little men. So I wouldn't use it as some basis or criteria to say look he fell off. The style of play that Utah played, and Karl used to his advantage was to wear you down. Karl wore out more players than any other power forward ever did. Even Barkley talked about his strength. Efficiency, especially TS% is horrible measure of anything as it relates to great big men.

I will say that TS%, efficiency, playoffs sounds a whole lot like another poster here.


I wouldn't call someone who so often underperformed in the playoffs "the model of consistency". He may have the greatest longevity along with Kareem and in my opinion he is the best regular season PF but not the most consistent one.
Once again he played basically the same game. His goal wasn't always to score like crazy, if his team was losing Karl just starting beating up the other team. Karl was the leading scorer proportionately in big games/series moreso than Barkley/KG and Dirk. I don't even have to look that up. He didn't have those Van Excel/Spreewell/Casell/Josh Howard moments.


Here is Dirk in comparison.
In the regular season:
22.5 ppg on .582 TS%, 36 min per game

In the playoffs:
25.6 ppg on .579 TS, 41 min per game (almost as many points per minute and almost the same efficiency)

Duncan and Barkley also didn't have a big efficiency/scoring drop off in the playoffs.

Barkley and Dirk don't play like KG and Duncan. They don't hustle, rebound or defend like KG/Duncan did/do. They played less minutes and far less aggressively. They had plenty of more energy and less bruises at the end of the season. And none of that changed in the post season.

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 09:24 PM
Of course it matters. We're comparing prime Duncan and prime Garnett as offensive players. Prime Duncan played in a hogwash offensive system that solely relied on him. The offense was: give it to Tim, go stand by the 3 point line. KG could never have handled an offense putting that much pressure on him (probably why he drifted out to the perimeter so much). And he relied on his teammates to create looks for him a lot more than Tim did.
KG is tall slim dark skin guy. KG was relied on to create more of his offense than Duncan was (assist). KG created his own shot. That's why I'm bringing up the system thing. People always knew where to be and Pop always knew how to get a lot out of a little (Gin is considered a great player but his numbers are barely all star worthy in his best years, Parker is considered a top PG, the best bench in the league has several players that wouldn't be in the league elsewhere). Flip Sanders never did much with his players. You have no idea what Vanilla is.

KG never had dependable offensive players. KG in his early years had way more pressure on him and was the scoring type. Then having to lead his team in every category turned him into a different type of player.


In 08 Garnett was the clear second option on offense, so your comment about him being in a vanilla offense doesn't really apply.
OK, a prerequisite for this argument is that you seen them play. KG was the central figure in that offense. And he was past his prime, at this time.



Duncan was simply the more effective player. There's no other way around it. Their Playoff stats might be close (though Duncan's are clearly better, and I've explained why Popovich has nothing to do with it), but their Playoff impact really isn't. A low-post scorer and rim protector brings more value than a jumpshooter/wing defender 10 times out of 10.
Pop has everything to do with it. Rings follow coaches and systems more than they do players. That's basic knowledge. If Duncan got hurt now, SA still might have the best record in the West. Would lose in the playoffs. KG gets a good coach he finally wins. I can give you examples left and right.



I guess that's why the 6 best big men ever (Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt) were all inside-out players. Not the other way around.
So where do you have Dirk ranked?

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 09:35 PM
Garnett often camped out to the perimeter. That's not what a rim protector does. Grabbing more rebounds doesn't make one a better defender or protector. David Lee and Kevin Love prove that. You can't call Garnett a better protector and defender when 23 year old Dirk was lighting him up.
When KG guarded Dirk, he usually outscored him. And if Dirk had guarded KG it would have been a massacre. When Dirk had to guard another power forward, his game fell off considerably. He always had problems with Sacramento because he had to play defense, which F---ed his game up.

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 09:43 PM
No one's saying KG is a bad defender. We're just saying he's not this rim protector some think he is. Some things just can't be measured through stats. And stats can also be misleading. Ben Wallace is Ben Wallace though. 4 DPOYs in 5 years speaks for itself.

KG is one of the greatest team defenders ever. Protection at the rim is often too late. If you don't believe me go to youtube and put in Kobe/dunks/Duncan.

Defensive communication is superior than any one rim protector. Teams could not penetrate that Boston defense at all. That's why the West had all types of problems with the Celtics that year. And if KG had more defensive pieces, like that Spurs '03 team, that team would be legendary.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 09:44 PM
I think you're missing his point. Magic was great but he had great players around him. Garnett had comparable talent in 08, 09, and maybe 10. Put Worthy, Scott, early 30 Jabbar in any other situation and their still 20 ppg scorers. And in Jabbar and Worthys case hofers. Can you say the same Spreewell and Cassell?

I'm not missing his point. I get his point. He thinks that KG would have been a better player had he played with better players.

I don't really think so. I think he definitely wins more and all that stuff...but as far as being a better player? Nah...I think KG is roughly the same player. A guy you don't want to run an offense through...certainly not if you have Worthy and Kareem level help for him.

I understand his points perfectly. He thinks playing in Minny somehow made KG a worse player. I gladly agree that it wasn't the optimal scenario for any player, but I've watched KG from high school to now...and the notion that if he had just had more help...he'd been a better player...ugh...just doesn't sit right.

I think his scoring goes down...efficiency up a little. assists down a little. all within reason.

But as far as anything really substantial...I don't think much changes.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 09:52 PM
When KG guarded Dirk, he usually outscored him. And if Dirk had guarded KG it would have been a massacre. When Dirk had to guard another power forward, his game fell off considerably. He always had problems with Sacramento because he had to play defense, which F---ed his game up.

Which years are you talking about with the Kings? They played in 02. And while Dirk wasn't great...he certainly wasn't bad and his game didn't fall of considerably.

Also, you make my point for me. Why didn't Dirk have to guard KG in 02 in the playoffs? Well, because he wasn't a huge threat. We had Lafrentz (just a worse defender than Dirk)...and Najera...not great either. Why couldn't KG dominate that front line if Dirk is so bad at defense and KG is this offensive powerhouse?

They played in 03 and 04 as well....Dirk was actually pretty damn good in each series.

Anyway...here are Dirk's numbers playing the Kings:

02 - 25/12/3 51% TS

03 - 21/14/3 56% TS (30/19/2 69% TS game 7)

04 - 27/12/1 56% TS

Fell off considerably? Meh...don't really think so.

97 bulls
11-08-2014, 10:02 PM
He played in the 50s and 60s. Players in those eras are either elevated exponentially or "forgotten".

Why is Hondo never in any top 10 list?
Then the question should be who are the top PFs fron the 70s to present.

Hondo shouldn't be in the top ten for the same reason Pippen isnt.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 10:08 PM
Then the question should be who are the top PFs fron the 70s to present.

Hondo shouldn't be in the top ten for the same reason Pippen isnt.

I listed Pettit in my response. He should be in that 2 to 6 range...I just have no idea where because I didn't see him play.

97 bulls
11-08-2014, 10:18 PM
I'm not missing his point. I get his point. He thinks that KG would have been a better player had he played with better players.

I don't really think so. I think he definitely wins more and all that stuff...but as far as being a better player? Nah...I think KG is roughly the same player. A guy you don't want to run an offense through...certainly not if you have Worthy and Kareem level help for him.

I understand his points perfectly. He thinks playing in Minny somehow made KG a worse player. I gladly agree that it wasn't the optimal scenario for any player, but I've watched KG from high school to now...and the notion that if he had just had more help...he'd been a better player...ugh...just doesn't sit right.

I think his scoring goes down...efficiency up a little. assists down a little. all within reason.

But as far as anything really substantial...I don't think much changes.
Got it. Look at it this way. Create a team around Garnett that caters to his trengths and he may improve statistically. Give him Chris Paul, and prime Ray Allen. Why would he suffer statistically? Paul would make his ability to score easier.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 10:27 PM
Got it. Look at it this way. Create a team around Garnett that caters to his trengths and he may improve statistically. Give him Chris Paul, and prime Ray Allen. Why would he suffer statistically? Paul would make his ability to score easier.

I said his scoring would go down...not that his stats would suffer hugely or something.

Great...Paul and Ray Allen are a perfect fit next to KG. Love it.

What do I think KG does? I think he's pretty much the exact same player and his numbers would be something like 21/14/3 54% TS over his 3 year peak with that vs 25/15/5 52% TS.

I think they win a title or two...and all that jazz, but in terms of him just producing in a real different way....just don't see it.

When I said he would score 15 ppg I was talking about him being on a team with Kareem (like Magic) and another elite offensive player that had the ball a lot.

Chris and Ray are pretty unselfish and Ray doesn't need the ball much.

It depends on the specific players.

Pointguard
11-08-2014, 11:08 PM
Which years are you talking about with the Kings? They played in 02. And while Dirk wasn't great...he certainly wasn't bad and his game didn't fall of considerably.
Dirk was super hot going into that series. He had no impact against the Kings in another series as well.


Also, you make my point for me. Why didn't Dirk have to guard KG in 02 in the playoffs? Well, because he wasn't a huge threat.
Unless, you are stone drunk, Dirk never guarded star Power Forwards. "Have to guard" are you insane??? Dirk was a garbage defender. Are you mad.


We had Lafrentz (just a worse defender than Dirk)...and Najera...not great either. Why couldn't KG dominate that front line if Dirk is so bad at defense and KG is this offensive powerhouse?
Najera wasn't great... LOL. You're drunk and are trying to use word trickology. Najera wasn't a bad defender - Dirk was. Najera was a gritty tough nosed player that dug in on defense. KG averaged a horrible 24/19/5 2blocks 2 steals that series. Flip had no game plan whatsoever in that series. He didn't have a scoring team and tried to outscore Dallas.



They played in 03 and 04 as well....Dirk was actually pretty damn good in each series.

Anyway...here are Dirk's numbers playing the Kings:

02 - 25/12/3 51% TS

03 - 21/14/3 56% TS (30/19/2 69% TS game 7)

04 - 27/12/1 56% TS

Fell off considerably? Meh...don't really think so.
One of those years, '03 Nick Van Exel had to take over the team, they actually beat Sacramento. Dirk's play greatly improved because Webber wasn't playing the last couple of games.

In '02 Most of those games weren't close. Its not like Sacramento really puts the "D" on. They prefer you run and gun with them. Dirk was super hot going against a team that didn't play defense. He had no presence in that series but he was young.

In '04 KG totally dominated that Sacramento team on both sides of the ball. Offensively taking over the 7th game. This was Nash's team, Dirk wasn't bad at all but just not a real threat.

Marchesk
11-08-2014, 11:22 PM
Pettit is top 20 all-time, so how can he not be a top 5 PF?

Yeah, he played in the 50s and 60s. He played against Wilt, Russell, Baylor, Oscar, West. If you discount him, then take those guys off your list as well.

You have to go by what they accomplished, and only Duncan has a clear case over him.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 11:33 PM
Dirk was super hot going into that series. He had no impact against the Kings in another series as well.

Unless, you are stone drunk, Dirk never guarded star Power Forwards. "Have to guard" are you insane??? Dirk was a garbage defender. Are you mad.

Najera wasn't great... LOL. You're drunk and are trying to use word trickology. Najera wasn't a bad defender - Dirk was. Najera was a gritty tough nosed player that dug in on defense. KG averaged a horrible 24/19/5 2blocks 2 steals that series. Flip had no game plan whatsoever in that series. He didn't have a scoring team and tried to outscore Dallas.


One of those years, '03 Nick Van Exel had to take over the team, they actually beat Sacramento. Dirk's play greatly improved because Webber wasn't playing the last couple of games.

In '02 Most of those games weren't close. Its not like Sacramento really puts the "D" on. They prefer you run and gun with them. Dirk was super hot going against a team that didn't play defense. He had no presence in that series but he was young.

In '04 KG totally dominated that Sacramento team on both sides of the ball. Offensively taking over the 7th game. This was Nash's team, Dirk wasn't bad at all but just not a real threat.

Holy shit...you know nothing about the Mavs...literally nothing.

04 was Nash's team?????? Nash was ****ing injured in 04 and was ****ing awful.

Now lets get this straight.

Nash averages 14/5/9 46% TS
Dirk averages 27/12/1 56% TS

And you have the ****ing audacity to call it Nash's team and that Dirk was no real threat.

Have to love that straight up how ****ing ignorant you are.

I love how you say Dirk was hot in 02. He was "hot" against KG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where was KG? Oh yea...it's the coaches fault. But when Dirk gets no help and has inept coaching....it's never on them...right? Flip Saunders can coach circles around Avery Johnson...

Just holy shit dude.

And have you ever stopped to think that Dirk plays a role in Van Exel torching the Kings in 03? Ever think he's partly responsible for that given he makes the game super easy for any guard he plays with that can't shoot worth a shit? I swear it's like you think Dirk doesn't have one of the biggest off ball impacts offensively ever. Newsflash...he does.

Also...Dirk was not a terrible defender by 02. And Lafrentz was just definitely worse. Najera solely guarded KG? Well...maybe for 25 minutes a game...but what about the other 18 in which KG was going against Dirk or Lafrentz or Wang Z??????

Too busy torching the worst front line in basketball defensively likely to the tune of 51% TS on his way to getting swept. ROFL...but yea...it would be a massacre if KG was guarded by weak defenders.

The double standards are just priceless.

KG is who he is. Change coaches...change players....change anything you want. You make him the best player on the team offensively and he's going to give you around 22 points on low 50's TS and that's not good enough unless you just have loaded teams like the 08 Celtics.

Nash's team...GTFO...

The one time they played in the playoffs....pre prime Dirk vs KG.

Dirk 133 ortg 95 drtg (led team in both categories)
KG 108 ortg 111 drtg

Who did KG stop? What did he do? Where was this massacre you speak of?

04 KG...at the peak of his powers...with a solid team around him...was a 51% TS player. He is who he is. Just what he was in 02 playing a horrid team defensively with a weak front line when he had Wally and Billups combining for 40 plus points a night on good efficiency. He was a 51% TS player. That's who he was...nothing is gonna change that other than reducing his.

D.J.
11-08-2014, 11:46 PM
KG is one of the greatest team defenders ever. Protection at the rim is often too late. If you don't believe me go to youtube and put in Kobe/dunks/Duncan.

Defensive communication is superior than any one rim protector. Teams could not penetrate that Boston defense at all. That's why the West had all types of problems with the Celtics that year. And if KG had more defensive pieces, like that Spurs '03 team, that team would be legendary.


He's a good team defender, but not one of the greatest. Remember that Boston team also had Tom Thibodeau on the bench, a genius defensive mastermind. Helps a lot to have a guy like him orchestrate a defense for Doc Rivers.



One of those years, '03 Nick Van Exel had to take over the team, they actually beat Sacramento. Dirk's play greatly improved because Webber wasn't playing the last couple of games.


Couple of games? He didn't play after game 2. And they still needed 7 games to beat them.

DMAVS41
11-08-2014, 11:50 PM
Notice the double standard.

Dirk averages 22 points on 54% TS through the first 5 games of the Warriors series with a 119 org and everyone acted like the sky was falling and he was just playing terribly...and he was playing a nightmare matchup...etc. He was terrible in game 6 (a blowout loss by 25 points)...but according to you clowns....22 points on 54% TS...shit...that's just great for KG standards.

KG scores 24 points on 51% TS against possibly the worst front line in basketball and you act like he did something special...LOL

Again you fail to grasp Dirk's real impact and have an absurd double standard.

Nash's team in 04....seriously dude. Just leave the boards after that one.

tpols
11-08-2014, 11:53 PM
All dirk does is score lol.. If his shots off he's literally doing nothing on the court but giving up buckets.. It makes him a net negative

Guys like Tim duncan(who hovered around 20 ppg and 55TS) and KG provide a ton of resistance on the other end that turns even a low efficiency game into still a net positive since their defensive efficiency is so high.

masonanddixon
11-09-2014, 12:00 AM
All dirk does is score lol.. If his shots off he's literally doing nothing on the court but giving up buckets.. It makes him a net negative

Guys like Tim duncan(who hovered around 20 ppg and 55TS) and KG provide a ton of resistance on the other end that turns even a low efficiency game into still a net positive since their defensive efficiency is so high.

yeah except for the fact Dirk is easily an above average defender and very good man defender, incredible passer, and the most clutch player of his era. But other than that he does nothing

D.J.
11-09-2014, 12:01 AM
All dirk does is score lol.. If his shots off he's literally doing nothing on the court but giving up buckets.. It makes him a net negative

Guys like Tim duncan(who hovered around 20 ppg and 55TS) and KG provide a ton of resistance on the other end that turns even a low efficiency game into still a net positive since their defensive efficiency is so high.


Grabbing 9-10 RPG and defensive rating hovering around 100 and all he does is score? :facepalm He's not winning any DPOYs, but his D isn't that bad.

tpols
11-09-2014, 12:05 AM
yeah except for the fact Dirk is easily an above average defender and very good man defender, incredible passer, and the most clutch player of his era. But other than that he does nothing
Not even close.. He was called irk in the early mid 2000s just like people call James harden 'James haren' now.. No d.

He's a smart passer not a great one.. But most of that comes off defenses rotating like crazy at him giving him easy lanes to throw.. If he's getting locked up those lanes dissappear.

tpols
11-09-2014, 12:14 AM
Grabbing 9-10 RPG and defensive rating hovering around 100 and all he does is score? :facepalm He's not winning any DPOYs, but his D isn't that bad.
Your numbers are wrong.

Dirks career playoff drating is 107.. His best seasons were 98, 103,and 105.

KG career playoff drating is 99.. With best seasons of 90, 95,and 95.

If dmavs is ripping apart the difference between 54 and 58TS offensive efficiencies what's he got to say about the even bigger difference in their defensive efficiencies.

And you could use rapm any Stat you want.. Eye test obviously too.

masonanddixon
11-09-2014, 12:27 AM
Not even close.. He was called irk in the early mid 2000s just like people call James harden 'James haren' now.. No d.

He's a smart passer not a great one.. But most of that comes off defenses rotating like crazy at him giving him easy lanes to throw.. If he's getting locked up those lanes dissappear.

I've watched him for 15 years and yes he is an incredible passer.

His bad reputation on defense was due to skin color, everyone acknowledges he's above average on defense now.

Avery was the one who started having him guarding the best player on the oppositon

navy
11-09-2014, 12:33 AM
I've watched him for 15 years and yes he is an incredible passer.

His bad reputation on defense was due to skin color, everyone acknowledges he's above average on defense now.

Avery was the one who started having him guarding the best player on the oppositon
No he is an alright passer. Incredible would be like Larry Bird. The white GOAT.

No he's never been a great defender. Serviceable? Sure. Above average now? lol, nobody says that. Not even him if you asked.

Which best players has Dirk guarded? Certainly not guards and small fowards. He isnt guarding any best player centers. So I guess you mean the occasional pf?

D.J.
11-09-2014, 12:33 AM
Your numbers are wrong.

Dirks career playoff drating is 107.. His best seasons were 98, 103,and 105.

KG career playoff drating is 99.. With best seasons of 90, 95,and 95.

If dmavs is ripping apart the difference between 54 and 58TS offensive efficiencies what's he got to say about the even bigger difference in their defensive efficiencies.

And you could use rapm any Stat you want.. Eye test obviously too.


My numbers are not wrong. Dirk was routinely grabbing 9-10 RPG in his prime with his defensive rating hovering around 100 with his lowest being 98. No one is calling Dirk a DPOY. However, people saying he's a sh*tty defender just isn't true. He's average. There's nothing wrong with average.

navy
11-09-2014, 12:36 AM
My numbers are not wrong. Dirk was routinely grabbing 9-10 RPG in his prime with his defensive rating hovering around 100 with his lowest being 98. No one is calling Dirk a DPOY. However, people saying he's a sh*tty defender just isn't true. He's average. There's nothing wrong with average.
Hmmm... let me ask you this. How would a Dirk led team do defensively if he was your defensive anchor or best defensive player?

masonanddixon
11-09-2014, 12:39 AM
No he is an alright passer. Incredible would be like Larry Bird. The white GOAT.

No he's never been a great defender. Serviceable? Sure. Above average now? lol, nobody says that. Not even him if you asked.

Which best players has Dirk guarded? Certainly not guards and small fowards. He isnt guarding any best player centers. So I guess you mean the occasional pf?

Aldridge, Bosh, Gasol, Ibaka in 2010-2011.

Webber, Duncan, KG in the past to name a few.

Ask JVG. He always talks about Dirk being elite on defense. I won't go that far, but he's smart, crafty, and easily above average. The reason he doesn't block shots is because he knows if he gets in any foul trouble his team is screwed.

tpols
11-09-2014, 12:41 AM
My numbers are not wrong. Dirk was routinely grabbing 9-10 RPG in his prime with his defensive rating hovering around 100 with his lowest being 98. No one is calling Dirk a DPOY. However, people saying he's a sh*tty defender just isn't true. He's average. There's nothing wrong with average.
Wait are you talking regular season or playoffs? Either way your wrong. Since 2002 to 2011

104
98
104
100
103
102
104
108
105
105

His average is 104. He hit 100 three times in 17 years.

His playoff average is 107 which is even worse. Your hovering around 100 is just dead wrong both ways.

D.J.
11-09-2014, 12:42 AM
Hmmm... let me ask you this. How would a Dirk led team do defensively if he was your defensive anchor or best defensive player?


Depends who his teammates are and how the team defense is. If it's solely Dirk being counted on, no player who isn't top caliber on D is going to have success. Even Hakeem had trouble carrying his team in the late 80s and early 90s. If it's a team defense like Boston's squad 5 years ago, he probably would be ok.

D.J.
11-09-2014, 12:43 AM
Wait are you talking regular season or playoffs? Either way your wrong. Since 2002 to 2011

104
98
104
100
103
102
104
108
105
105

His average is 104. He hit 100 three times in 17 years.

His playoff average is 107 which is even worse. Your hovering around 100 is just dead wrong both ways.


No I'm not wrong. 98, 100, 102. That's hovering around 100 and that was in his prime.

navy
11-09-2014, 12:47 AM
Aldridge, Bosh, Gasol, Ibaka in 2010-2011.

Webber, Duncan, KG in the past to name a few.

Ask JVG. He always talks about Dirk being elite on defense. I won't go that far, but he's smart, crafty, and easily above average. The reason he doesn't block shots is because he knows if he gets in any foul trouble his team is screwed.
I remember Tyson Chandler guarding those players most of the time in 2011. Ibaka is irrelevant. He certainly wasnt on Duncan. I dont remember the KG and Webber, but I doubt he was put on them either for most of the game or used for defensive stopping.

Dirk has never been used as a defensive stopper. He might guard a few guys if the matchups dictate it, but he is certainly always been a player that you try to hide or put an elite defensive stopper/rim protector behind at center.

tpols
11-09-2014, 12:49 AM
No I'm not wrong. 98, 100, 102. That's hovering around 100 and that was in his prime.
So you pick his best three years and say he hovered around them for his entire prime. :lol

Okay then KG hovered around 90+95+95/3 = 93.:hammerhead:

masonanddixon
11-09-2014, 12:53 AM
I remember Tyson Chandler guarding those players most of the time in 2011. Ibaka is irrelevant. He certainly wasnt on Duncan. I dont remember the KG and Webber, but I doubt he was put on them either for most of the game or used for defensive stopping.

Dirk has never been used as a defensive stopper. He might guard a few guys if the matchups dictate it, but he is certainly always been a player that you try to hide or put an elite defensive stopper/rim protector behind at center.

He guarded Duncan all the time 2001 and 2003 playoffs. A famous play was him shutting down Duncan at the end of Game 1 of 2002-2003 WCF

DatAsh
11-09-2014, 12:53 AM
Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Dirk/Malone/Pettit (can't decide)

For me it comes down to defense. PF is one of 2 positions where I value individual defense as much or more than I do individual offense. If these guys were PGs, SGs, or even SFs, Barkley would be at the top(as I see him as the best offensive player of the bunch), but traditionally PFs affect team DRtg as much as they do team ORtg, and team DRtg is more important than team ORtg when it comes to winning championships.

D.J.
11-09-2014, 12:54 AM
So you pick his best three years and say he hovered around them for his entire prime. :lol

Okay then KG hovered around 90+95+95/3 = 93.:hammerhead:


He's not in his prime at 33. Point is I'm right and I stand by my assertion that Dirk is not a terrible defender.

Pointguard
11-09-2014, 03:24 AM
Holy shit...you know nothing about the Mavs...literally nothing.

04 was Nash's team?????? Nash was ****ing injured in 04 and was ****ing awful.

Now lets get this straight.

Nash averages 14/5/9 46% TS
Dirk averages 27/12/1 56% TS

And you have the ****ing audacity to call it Nash's team and that Dirk was no real threat.
You're like a dumb dog, that will take the bait if put out there you will lose your mind like you are rabid.

Dirk wasn't remotely a threat in that series. Their was focus on Nash. Maybe because Nash was the motor of the team but Dirk wasn't much of a thought. Sorry dude - he wasn't a threat.



I love how you say Dirk was hot in 02. He was "hot" against KG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002148521/959648781_tumblr_llpw9kknrA1qg1lsq_answer_2_xlarge .jpeg


Where was KG? Oh yea...it's the coaches fault. But when Dirk gets no help and has inept coaching....it's never on them...right? Flip Saunders can coach circles around Avery Johnson...

Just holy shit dude.
KG wasn't guarding Dirk. Plain and simple. I guess you saw something nobody else did. You think that wasn't the coaches call? Make up some crazy excuse. Stephen Jackson guarding Dirk had nothing to do with Avery - at all. Really.



And have you ever stopped to think that Dirk plays a role in Van Exel torching the Kings in 03? Ever think he's partly responsible for that given he makes the game super easy for any guard he plays with that can't shoot worth a shit? I swear it's like you think Dirk doesn't have one of the biggest off ball impacts offensively ever. Newsflash...he does.
Oh yeah right, but if Webber plays guess who is relegated to being Dirk having to play defense?


Also...Dirk was not a terrible defender by 02. And Lafrentz was just definitely worse. Najera solely guarded KG? Well...maybe for 25 minutes a game...but what about the other 18 in which KG was going against Dirk or Lafrentz or Wang Z??????
The rule is that Dirk don't guard star power forwards.


Too busy torching the worst front line in basketball defensively likely to the tune of 51% TS on his way to getting swept. ROFL...but yea...it would be a massacre if KG was guarded by weak defenders.

The double standards are just priceless.
HAhaha, TS% is a small man's stat. GOAT big men's TS% usually works against them (versus FG%) - see Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell. The Dirk standard is that he has substitute for defense, doesn't rebound like other great PF's all year, and doesn't hustle like them either.



04 KG...at the peak of his powers...with a solid team around him...was a 51% TS player. He is who he is. Just what he was in 02 playing a horrid team defensively with a weak front line when he had Wally and Billups combining for 40 plus points a night on good efficiency. He was a 51% TS player. That's who he was...nothing is gonna change that other than reducing his.
TS% is garbage stat for great big men - please see Shaq, Wilt, Russell. KG dominated that Minny team that whole series and killed them in the 7th game - did it offensively. This constant bringing up TS% is a joke. But its all you have. I saw Shaq totally beast the league in '01 and his TS% was 58 in the playoffs was. When Lebron was sabotaging his team in '11 his TS% was 54. GARBAGE STAT.

Billups was never a starter before '01, in fact he was a stellar 9/3 guy before KG - KG totally upped his game. Scerbiack game took a five point dip without KG, which is a lot during his prime and was out of the league in 2 years at 31 years of age - I don't know he might have been injured but his game sucked without KG.

pastis
11-09-2014, 08:11 AM
You're like a dumb dog, that will take the bait if put out there you will lose your mind like you are rabid.

Dirk wasn't remotely a threat in that series. Their was focus on Nash. Maybe because Nash was the motor of the team but Dirk wasn't much of a thought. Sorry dude - he wasn't a threat.




you must be one of the most retarded ever with markmadsen. nice job:cheers:

garnett is a beta male, maybe gamma. top 20 maybe, 5-8 places behind Dirk.
and now open your mouth :sleeping and suck

yea ban me for this. i dont care.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG
11-09-2014, 08:18 AM
Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Dirk/Malone/Pettit (can't decide)

For me it comes down to defense. PF is one of 2 positions where I value individual defense as much or more than I do individual offense. If these guys were PGs, SGs, or even SFs, Barkley would be at the top(as I see him as the best offensive player of the bunch), but traditionally PFs affect team DRtg as much as they do team ORtg, and team DRtg is more important than team ORtg when it comes to winning championships.
Chuck is by far the worst defender of the bunch (prolly Pettit too but i didnt see him play)

T_L_P
11-09-2014, 08:24 AM
He guarded Duncan all the time 2001 and 2003 playoffs. A famous play was him shutting down Duncan at the end of Game 1 of 2002-2003 WCF

I remember that play. Dirk played some solid D.

But Duncan was triple-teamed on that play. And Dirk's hand was the farthest away from him when he took the shoot. And through three games he averaged 36/18/6/4/62% shooting on Dirk.