Why is LeBron so much more efficient than Jordan was?

[Bodhi]

LeBron Career TS%
Regular season - 58.1
Playoffs - 57.8

Jordan Career TS%
Regular season - 56.9
Playoffs - 56.8

[Doctor Rivers]

not efficient in winning championships

Jordan - 6/6

James - 2/5

[Derivative]

efficiency is more than just fg%

check their PER

[Warfan]

There's barely any difference (1%), and Jordan scored at a much higher volume than bron.

[navy]

Hmmm....Take out Jordan's Wizards years and then post the stats again.

[Doranku]

Jordan averaged FIVE more points on just 1% worse efficiency.























And he never scored 8 points in the finals like a scared little b!tch.

[Beastmode88]

LeBron Career TS%
Regular season - 58.1
Playoffs - 57.8
Finals - 40.0

Jordan Career TS%
Regular season - 56.9
Playoffs - 56.8
Finals - 100.0

Ftfy

[dubeta]

And when you also consider, FG% is actually LESS now that in those days, the difference grows even more

Bird and Magic were all 50% shooters, even 6'2 Guards were shooting 50%, look it up this is true


In this era, 45-46% seems to be the norm for perimeter players, making LeBrons advantage that much greater



AND when you look at the fact, LeBrons FG% keeps increasing, while Jordan's started decreasing after just his 7th year


Once Jordan's athleticism was decreasing, his fg% plummeted worse than the titanic


LeBrons fg% goes up as his athleticism fades, showing how less reliant LeBron is at it

[Bodhi]

efficiency is more than just fg%

check their PER

LeBron Peak PER
Regular season - 31.7
Playoffs - 37.4

Jordan Peak PER
Regular season - 31.7
Playoffs - 32.0

Of course PER doesn't consider LeBron's defensive advantage

[Real Men Wear Green]

How is one TS % point "much more" efficent? What does that equate to, an extra miss every three games? Free throw every two?

[dubeta]

True shooting percentage in their 11th season


Jordan - 56.7%


LeBron 64.9%


Someone please explain this difference to us mortals

[Doctor Rivers]

True shooting percentage in their 11th season


Jordan - 56.7%


LeBron 64.9%


Someone please explain this difference to us mortals

6/6

2/5

[dubeta]

LeBron Peak PER
Regular season - 31.7
Playoffs - 37.4

Jordan Peak PER
Regular season - 31.7
Playoffs - 32.0

Of course PER doesn't consider LeBron's defensive advantage

:applause:


2009 Playoff LeBron was literally 2 tiers above any version of Jordan, sad people here are blinded by the mythology of MJ

[nathanjizzle]

because hes a role player. he plays the role of the efficient role player.

[Doctor Rivers]

:applause:


2009 Playoff LeBron was literally 2 tiers above any version of Jordan, sad people here are blinded by the mythology of MJ

2009 playoff LeBron didn't make it to the Finals

[Micku]

LeBron Career TS%
Regular season - 58.1
Playoffs - 57.8

Jordan Career TS%
Regular season - 56.9
Playoffs - 56.8

What is season is Lebron in? 12th season?

If we take into account Jordan collective 12th season, MJ career TS% is:
Regular season - 58.4
Playoffs - 57.1

A better comparison, not to mention the volume.

[SouBeachTalents]

2009 playoff LeBron didn't make it to the Finals

Dat supporting cast

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009_ECF.html

[Micku]

LeBron Peak PER
Regular season - 31.7
Playoffs - 37.4

Jordan Peak PER
Regular season - 31.7
Playoffs - 32.0

Of course PER doesn't consider LeBron's defensive advantage

Don't care for the trolling or whatever, but LBJ was playing insane in 09.

[JellyBean]

not efficient in winning championships

Jordan - 6/6

James - 2/5


Boo-yah!!

But like somebody already stated, LeBron wasn't that much more efficient than Jordan. What a few percentage points here or there? Plus, basketball is deeper than just numbers.

[eSOL]

True shooting percentage in their 11th season


Jordan - 56.7%


LeBron 64.9%


Someone please explain this difference to us mortals



Dubeta got that daily ether

[chazzy]

Lebron has played every year besides his rookie year post rule changes

[3ball]

Miami had BY FAR the highest shooting efficiency of any Spurs opponent, and got blown out of the gym worse than any other Finals team ever has.

Shooting efficiency doesn't have nearly the direct correlation to winning as Offensive Rating (ORtg), or points produced per 100 possessions.

ORtg is the true efficiency measure - this is common knowledge.

Jordan's career ORtg in the regular season and playoffs was 118.

Lebron's ORtg was 116 and 115.

If you take out the Wizards years and only look at Jordan's ORtg as a Bull, it's 120... :eek:

Jordan's style simply produced more points-per-possession.... :confusedshrug:

[Collie]

So was Adrian Dantley?

[Joyner82reload]

lol @ Dubeta. Let's bring in that REAL ether.

Career TS%
Durant 60.0%
LeBron 58.1%
Advantage: Durant +1.9

Career TS% through 7th season
Durant 60.0%
LeBron 56.2%
Advantage: Durant +3.8

Rookie TS%
Durant 51.9%
LeBron 48.8%
Advantage: Durant +3.1

2nd year TS%
Durant 57.7%
LeBron 55.4%
Advantage: Durant +2.3

3rd year TS%
Durant 60.7%
LeBron 56.8%
Advantage: Durant +3.9

4th year TS%
Durant 58.9%
LeBron 55.2%
Advantage: Durant +3.7

5th year TS%
Durant 61.0%
LeBron 56.8%
Advantage: Durant +4.2

6th year TS%
Durant 64.7%
LeBron 59.1%
Advantage: Durant +5.6

7th year TS%
Durant 63.5%
LeBron 60.4%
Advantage: Durant +3.1

And just for more fun

Career playoff TS%
Durant 58.3%
LeBron 57.8%
Advantage: Durant +0.5

Career playoff TS% through 7 years
Durant 58.3%
LeBron 56.1%
Advantage: Durant +2.2

we're done here.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LeBron Career TS%
Regular season - 58.1
Playoffs - 57.8

Jordan Career TS%
Regular season - 56.9
Playoffs - 56.8

Jordan through age 29.5, like Lebron is:

Regular season: 59.3% TS
Playoffs: 58.7% TS

On top of that, TS% is inflated by 3's, which MJ didn't take a lot of, and Lebron's TS% is also boosted (the last several years in Miami especially) by the soft perimeter rules today as well as the offensive talent around him and the spacing he had.

[oh the horror]

Dubeta got that daily ether



You going to act like you're not dubeta agreeing with yourself?



Dude everyone knows your act. People clown you and you sigh on with alts and agree with yourself so you don't look like a complete tool.

[plowking]

Lebron has played every year besides his rookie year post rule changes

So?

Wing players were much more efficient in terms of shooting before the rule changes. Now they are forced to shoot long jumpers and more 3's due to defenses.

Why do you think players like Kiki Vandeweghe were able to shoot above 50% back in the day and put up 30ppg?

[jrong]

He got to play with Dwyane Wade for four years. Jordan didn't.

Those 55% FG years are gone forever (for Wade too). Kiss them goodbye. They were a product of playing with a player who is an approximate facsimile of himself in terms of the combination of efficiency and ability to command defensive attention. Jordan never had that opportunity.

[plowking]

He got to play with Dwyane Wade for four years. Jordan didn't.

Those 55% FG years are gone forever (for Wade too). Kiss them goodbye. They were a product of playing with a player who is an approximate facsimile of himself in terms of the combination of efficiency and ability to command defensive attention. Jordan never had that opportunity.

That was true for the first 2 seasons, maybe slightly less even. Don't try and act like it was a constant the whole time Bron was in Miami.

[JohnMax]

They were also a product of Lebron bulking up, playing PF position and moving Bosh to center so there could be more space at the rim.

[Roundball_Rock]

A key reason for the difference is when LeBron's shot is off he tends to significantly decrease the amount of shots he takes and shifts to a more facilitating role. Jordan would often keep gunning. A lot of times Jordan would catch fire later and it would be pay--but sometimes it would result in lines like 13 for 36, a result that one would have difficulty seeing LeBron finishing with because if he was that off he would likely finish with half as many FGA.

I do find it interesting that some of Jordan's years are excluded from the record. There are legitimate reasons for doing so. I just hope those who are doing that when it suits MJ also do the same with KAJ and Wilt.

[Asukal]

Let's wait for 2/6. Amazing efficiency! :applause: :bowdown:

[Micku]

A key reason for the difference is when LeBron's shot is off he tends to significantly decrease the amount of shots he takes and shifts to a more facilitating role. Jordan would often keep gunning. A lot of times Jordan would catch fire later and it would be pay--but sometimes it would result in lines like 13 for 36, a result that one would have difficulty seeing LeBron finishing with because if he was that off he would likely finish with half as many FGA.

I do find it interesting that some of Jordan's years are excluded from the record. There are legitimate reasons for doing so. I just hope those who are doing that when it suits MJ also do the same with KAJ and Wilt.

This is true from what I saw of MJ. Tho MJ did have other factors of the game that he would contribute too (his help D and rotation was superb), he still would clunk. Kobe and MJ are similar to that regard. It just MJ shot selection appeared better.

LBJ is very different. He does other things and is more selective with his shots. Especially with the Miami Heat run.

And it's very rare to see MJ take less than 15 FGA in his prime, I would imagine.

[Asukal]

A key reason for the difference is when LeBron's shot is off he tends to significantly decrease the amount of shots he takes and shifts to a more facilitating role. Jordan would often keep gunning. A lot of times Jordan would catch fire later and it would be pay--but sometimes it would result in lines like 13 for 36, a result that one would have difficulty seeing LeBron finishing with because if he was that off he would likely finish with half as many FGA.

I do find it interesting that some of Jordan's years are excluded from the record. There are legitimate reasons for doing so. I just hope those who are doing that when it suits MJ also do the same with KAJ and Wilt.

In short, bran hates pressure. He will protect that FG% even in the finals. :oldlol:

[3ball]

So?

Wing players were much more efficient in terms of shooting before the rule changes. Now they are forced to shoot long jumpers and more 3's due to defenses.

Why do you think players like Kiki Vandeweghe were able to shoot above 50% back in the day and put up 30ppg?

that was his TWO-POINT shooting percentage... he didn't shoot 3's, so his FG% will be higher than someone who does.

but he was a master at two-pointers - a tremendous shooter and catch-and-go player with very good size, strength, athleticism, and agility.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/92fdb3c881829c089969611e8ca28cd6.gif


here he is posterizing the lakers all night in the 1985 playoffs, guarded mostly by Michael Cooper and Worthy - it's not a contest versus either... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg

[Paul George 24]

Let's wait for 2/6. Amazing efficiency! :applause: :bowdown:
cavs will not makes to finals again

[chips93]

So?

Wing players were much more efficient in terms of shooting before the rule changes. Now they are forced to shoot long jumpers and more 3's due to defenses.

Why do you think players like Kiki Vandeweghe were able to shoot above 50% back in the day and put up 30ppg?

TS% on average is higher today than it was back then

[Elosha]

While I understand and appreciate basketball analytics and the emphasis on PER, etc., there is a serious downside to overemphasizing it. This thread is a prime example. Lebron may be more efficient than Jordan was in certain circumstances, although the difference is fairly negligible. But the vulnerability with analytics is that is sometimes causes us to ignore a player's skillsets and simply number crunch. And the danger with that when considering scoring, is that not all points are necessarily "equal." It is equally important to consider the manner in which a player can score, not just the fact that he scored efficiently. Lebron is obviously a great scorer and one who scored very efficiently over the last few years. But -- we've all seen him get slowed down in the playoffs quite frequently. And that's not just because Lebron may not be as mentally tough as Jordan, it's also because he has a more limited scoring skillset in the half court. There are still areas of the floor and situations where he's not as comfortable with the ball. He's not as good of an improviser as Jordan or Kobe. When he gets in the lane or goes up for a jumpshot, he's not as good changing direction or adjusting to the defense. Sure, you can find examples of when he was able to do well in those situations, but if you watch him play a lot, you'll notice lots of times when he's not able to react fast enough and gets stopped. And for good defenses, those are areas to expose, particularly in the playoffs.

Lebron knows his scoring strengths and plays to them as well as anyone in NBA history. But now we may very well see a marked decrease in his efficiency when compared to the last four years on the Heat. Some of that is due to his age, but some of that is the Cavs may simply not be built for getting him his ideal shots, such as fast break opportunities

Basketball is just as much art as it is science and statistical analysis. So PER and all advanced stats have a very important place, but so does a complete range of basketball skills. That's why I get very worried when coaches and the league are de-emphasizing long two point jumpshots and the mid range game in general. It leads to specialists who may be great at three pointers or driving, but it also leaves gaping holes in their overall game. When we're talking about an all time great perimeter player, give me a guy who is lethal from all aspects of the game, rather than one who might be even better at one or two aspects of scoring, but lags behind in other areas.

[riseagainst]

ok, whose alt is OP?