Kobe is -0.5 in defensive plus/minus for his career

[rlsmooth775]

Lebron 1.4

Duncan 3.6

[IncarceratedBob]

So what

[rlsmooth775]

So what

his defensive team selections are a fraud

[dubeta]

His career fg% is also on path to be negative :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

How much first team all defense again?

[daily]

link?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

his defensive team selections are a fraud

You didn't list other SGs, a year by year breakdown, minutes played for the season data, historical trends in voting and/or account for standard error.

:confusedshrug:

[Micku]

his defensive team selections are a fraud

The 2011 one is the obvious one. He shouldn't have won that. Just look at this sh1t on the plus/minus on the defensive end:

Iggy (67 games): -4.4
Tony Allen (72 games): -5.5
Ronnie Brewer (81 games): -7.7
Wade (76 games): +1.2
Kobe (82 games): +4.4

Plus/minus isn't the all to be all on defensive capability, and there was an article that showed the other defensive stats that year.
It's a shame that Kobe got first team. Tony Allen and Iggy got second team. Brewer and Wade didn't get anything. Damn shame. Oh well tho.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 2011 one is the obvious one. He shouldn't have won that. Just look at this sh1t on the plus/minus on the defensive end:

Iggy (67 games): -4.4
Tony Allen (72 games): -5.5
Ronnie Brewer (81 games): -7.7
Wade (76 games): +1.2
Kobe (82 games): +4.4

Plus/minus isn't the all to be all on defensive capability, and there was an article that showed the other defensive stats that year.
It's a shame that Kobe got first team. Tony Allen and Iggy got second team. Brewer and Wade didn't get anything. Damn shame. Oh well tho.

How did the other all defensive team award winners compare to the field in this stat?

:confusedshrug:

[Micku]

How did the other all defensive team award winners compare to the field in this stat?

:confusedshrug:

Kobe was the worst statistic out of the first team.

D.Howard: -2.7
KG: -6.3
LBJ: -4.3
Kobe: +4.4
Rondo: +1.9

Granted, this stat isn't end all to be all. And there are players who get screwed almost every year, but this was stuck out like a sore thumb. Travesty that the others guys didn't get the first team and Ronnie Brewer didn't even get selected. Wow.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe was the worst statistic out of the first team.

D.Howard: -2.7
KG: -6.3
LBJ: -4.3
Kobe: +4.4
Rondo: +1.9

Granted, this stat isn't end all to be all. And there are players who get screwed almost every year, but this was stuck out like a sore thumb.

What were the top defensive plus minuses for any player in the NBA for the entire year? Link?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kobe being a below average defender for his career is nothing new to objective fans.

[Micku]

What were the top defensive plus minuses for any player in the NBA for the entire year? Link?

You can check out the real Plus-Minus stat that ESPN is posting here:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014

That's better than the plus/minus stat that I'm using I heard. There was another site that post the real plus/minus, but I forgot the name of the site. I somebody linked it a while back, but I don't remember the site. You can check basketball reference for plus/minus stat by each player year by year. Here is Kobe in 2011:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2011/

You can check them all the way till 2000-2001 season. :cheers:




Kobe being a below average defender for his career is nothing new to objective fans.

Frobe was awesome tho. He was great in 2000 (his best year imo) and 2001. He wasn't as good in the 2002 season, but he got in anyway (2nd team). In 2010 he was solid as well, but did not deserve the 2011 award since there were others that were way better.

[russwest0]

So what

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You can check out the real Plus-Minus stat that ESPN is posting here:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014

That's better than the plus/minus stat that I'm using I heard. There was another site that post the real plus/minus, but I forgot the name of the site. I somebody linked it a while back, but I don't remember the site. You can check basketball reference for plus/minus stat by each player year by year. Here is Kobe in 2011:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2011/

You can check them all the way till 2000-2001 season. :cheers:





Frobe was awesome tho. He was great in 2000 (his best year imo) and 2001. He wasn't as good in the 2002 season, but he got in anyway (2nd team). In 2010 he was solid as well, but did not deserve the 2011 award since there were others that were way better.


How you can say Kobe's plus minus differential sticks out relative to you other All defensive team award winners if you apparently have no data on leave average on/data for shooting guards or made no attempt to vet the other players on the team in the same way?

-2.7 is really the best for centers that year? I doubt it.

Why hold Kobe Bryant to some ridiculous standard if you are not going to the same for everyone else on the list? :confusedshrug:

[pastis]

Kobe being a below average defender for his career is nothing new to objective fans.


so kobe stans cant give his first def-selections and being a "elite perimeter defender" as an argument.
i like. it fact this was clear since many years, but kobe stans still give his "elite defense skills" as an argument.

kobe maybe earned 1 first and 2 second teams in his career. at best. not more.

[Micku]

How you can say Kobe's plus minus differential sticks out relative to you other All defensive team award winners if you apparently have no data on leave average on/data for shooting guards or made no attempt to vet the other players on the team in the same way?

-2.7 is really the best for centers that year? I doubt it.

Why hold Kobe Bryant to some ridiculous standard if you are not going to the same for everyone else on the list? :confusedshrug:

It sticks out because it was the worst one out of the 1st NBA defensive team. And he wasn't even the best defensive player on his own team that year. They are indeed others that are more worthy of the 1st all defensive team title, but didn't even get on either team as I said. There are different sorts of plus/minus stats. You can also use box plus/minus stat, which is supposed to be a performance relative to league average. Kobe was 291th on box plus/minus stat on the defensive end (Ronnie Brewer was 13th). And like I said before tho, the plus/minus isn't an end all to be all. Plus/minus depends on other factors as well. You have to use other stats as well and use them within context. There is a bit of subjective involved as well.

And -2.7 wasn't the best for centers that year.

[Blue&Orange]

You guys better stop talking about this plus/minus thing, unless you guys want Lebron to start coming from the bench and play 20 minutes a game, so that he can stat pad +/- playing against the other team bench. You guys know he will do it if this +\- becomes relevant.

[ArbitraryWater]

Is Yao Ming's Foot actually serious in this thread?!?!

Just accept the fact that 2011 was a horrible selection and move on goddammit.... Wow. Asking all these irrelevant questions, when everyone else in the first Team had much better defensive statistics, AND guys from the second Team, AND guys that were left off like Dwyane Wade.... That's proof enough.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It sticks out because it was the worst one out of the 1st NBA defensive team. And he wasn't even the best defensive player on his own team that year. They are indeed others that are more worthy of the 1st all defensive team title, but didn't even get on either team as I said. There are different sorts of plus/minus stats. You can also use box plus/minus stat, which is supposed to be a performance relative to league average. Kobe was 291th on box plus/minus stat on the defensive end (Ronnie Brewer was 13th). And like I said before tho, the plus/minus isn't an end all to be all. Plus/minus depends on other factors as well. You have to use other stats as well and use them within context. There is a bit of subjective involved as well.

And -2.7 wasn't the best for centers that year.

Kobe Bryant did not deserve his all defensive tean selections if you

1) ignore historical trends in voting (guys like Ronnie Brewer almost never get selected. You could find a "Ronnie Brewer" at every other position as well)
2) make irrelevant comparisons (Its irrelevant if Kobe was the best defender on his own team or if his defensive impact was on par with the big men who made the team. Its not a top 5 defensive impact team or it would be 5 big men every year. )

Now you are backpedaling and saying its not just this stat that we should we use. There are other stats we should look at as well as subjectivity. As if the coaches who routinely voted Kobe the top defensive shooting guard don't already do that.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

In 2011 Ronnie Brewer played 1781 minutes... Kobe Bryant 2779.

[andgar923]

Frobe wasn't great either.

Defense is about 'consistency' and Kobe has NEVER had that. He'd be good in a possession or two. But his laziness, ego, and overall low IQ (during FroBe years) were outweighing the moments he did want to play defense.

On top of that, he had Shaq in the middle to correct his mistakes (which were tons).

He also only guarded top scorers on certain possessions not an entire game. It was usually Fox, Shaw, George, Ariza, and Fish that guarded the top perimeter players while Kobe usually coasted on defense.

People acting as if FroBe was some defensive juggernaut but he wasn't.

he had moments, but his errs outweighed his pros.

I can see maybe a second team all defense tops, and even then perhaps just a season. There's been certainly more qualified defenders.

Sure, he's one of the best defenders for star players at his position but not overall.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Sure, he's one of the best defenders for star players at his position but not overall.

This is pretty much the definition of the typical all defensive team selection throughout NBA history. :confusedshrug: