All Time Draft Finals!!! #1 vs #3

[barkleynash]

The Finals are Here!



VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).
Voting will end on Wednesday Nov 12th at 11:59pm




#1 Team Buffalo
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10649303&postcount=1028 (Team Synopsis)

PG: Gary Payton 95-96
SG: Michael Jordan 92-93
SF: Glen Rice 96-97
PF: Chris Weber 01-02
C: Nate Thurmond 67-68

Bench: Tim Hardaway 96-97
Tony Allen 11-12
Thunder Dan 91-92
Dennis Rodman 91-92
Joakim Noah 13-14

Coach: Jeff VanGundy



VS


#3 Team Barkleynash
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10647153&postcount=975 (team synopsis)

PG/PF: Magic Johnson 89-90
SG/SF: Kawhi Leonard 13-14
SF: Julius "The Dr." Erving 75-76
PF: Bob Pettit 60-61
C: Arvydas Sabonis 85-86

Bench: Lenny Wilkens 74-75
Klay Thompson 11-12
Oscar Schmidt 87-88
Antonio McDyess 97-98
Vlade Divac 89-90

Coach: Dr. Jack Ramsay



Link to Home Page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664321#post10664321

Arguments and voting may now begin!

[barkleynash]

First off good luck to Buffalo, you have a formidable team and this should be a fun final.

This finals will be an ultimate clash of offence vs defence. Much like the last 2 series Team Barkleynash had to go against a team with arguably the best player in the series (def not arguable in this series). And again much like those series "Team Banana Hands" have the advantage of having the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and possibly 5th best guys in the series with Magic, Dr J, Pettit and Sabonis.

Magic will go between guarding Rice(stand by him on the perimeter), Rodman(only while he's in at the 3spot), Thunder Dan(stand by him on the perimeter), Tony Allen(sag way off) and Payton(only when both Magic and Oscar are playing together or if Team Buffalo are running a small ball perimeter team with Jordan at SF and both point guards). With MJ dominating the ball on offence for the most part, Magic won't be very easily exploited by any of these guys.

On the other end he has many guys he can throw at Magic to give him different looks and all things considered Rodman looks the best equipped to do the job. End of the day none of them could contain Magic but they would def make him work. Unfortunately when ever Rodman or Tony Allen are in their offence suffers as a result of one less floor spacer. Trade off of better D/rebounding vs offensive spacing and flow. Tough call. Regardless of how he chooses to guard Magic, the point guard position is a huge advantage for Team Barkleynash with the Johnson, the best ever running the show, elevating everybody's play. Payton and Hardaway are both very nice but won't be nearly as effective playing 2nd fiddle to Jordan, especially Payton who's not much of an off ball shooter. Both of those jiveturkeys want the ball in their hands and that just ain't happening that much on a Jordan led team.

Leonard and Dr J will both get the call to guard MJ (when Payton and MJ are together Leonard guards Jordan and Dr J sags off Payton. When it's Hardaway and MJ then Kawhi gets Tim and Dr J draws Jordan) Obviously they aren't gonna stop the GOAT but they are both long, strong and extremely athletic defenders to throw at him and will be able to compete and make him work. The last thing we want is to make it easy for Jordan like my poor Suns did in 93 when they had Dumas, Ainge and Thunder Dan all taking turns getting roasted....ughh...:banghead:

As for who guards Dr J another possible dilemma for Team Buffalo. Does he let Rice get destroyed by him or bring in Rodman? maybe he gives MJ the job which makes sense but that will make him work that much harder in a game he's already carrying the offensive load. Regardless of who is guarding him, the Dr is gonna get his! As arguably the greatest open court scorer ever and as Magic's favorite target he'll be getting plenty of buckets!

Not sure who Buffalo's fav wing off the bench will be between Tony and Dan but Oscar will be a lot more productive than either of them and it's really not close and if he rolls with Rice off the bench again I'd give Schmidt a slight edge over him as well. Neither would stop the other, that's for sure haha.

Overall on the perimeter with advantages at PG and SF but an obvious huge disadvantage at the sg vs the GOAT I'd say it's a wash. I feel my perimeters fit way better together offensively but at the end of the day they do have Jordan.

At PF I see Pettit and Webber both lighting each other up but Pettit winning the rebounding battle while they are head to head giving him an edge. When Rodman is in vs Pettit, the rebounding will be a wash but Bob will still score (Rodman ain't blocking that jumper, but he'll make it tougher than CWebb). McDyess will obviously give more scoring off the bench than Rodman will but not the D and crazy boards. Overall I call the PF spot a wash with Pettit having a bigger impact than Webber and Rodman more than McDyess.

Sabonis as a much bigger and more skilled and versatile player, will have an advantage and a bigger impact in the series over Nate the Great, who was very good at grabbing boards and blocking shots but was pretty limited offensively and a very inefficient scorer at 41% especially considering his position. Sabas will be able to score on him in the inside and also draw him away from the hoop leaving them exposed without a shot blocking presence. We'll also be able to run the offence through Sabonis and get some different looks when Magic is out or just give Magic a break from having to always create. The Big Lithuanian who had to battle Wilt and KAJ the last 2 rounds will finally have an advantage he hadn't enjoyed since the first round and will be the difference maker in this series. If Sabonis would've came over right away after being drafted to Portland he would've surely helped the already stacked Blazers win a few titles and spoiled a few for MJ's Bulls. Unfortunately none of that happened but he can still be satisfied with being able to help spoil MJ's All-Time Fantasy Draft Championship dreams... :cheers:

Team Barkleynash take this in 6!

[kshutts1]

I think the advantage that BN has at PG is mostly mitigated by Payton. Payton can guard Magic on the perimeter really well. While BN has gone to great lengths to explain that "Magic can shoot the 3 this year!" I still don't buy that he had a pull up jumper. So Magic's height won't enable him to rise up over Payton, it's more of a spot-up thing. Payton can guard Magic on the perimeter, and if Magic is planted in the post to take advantage of the size, then the spacing is just killed.

If Bowen can't contain Jordan, then he'll go bonkers against Doc or Kawhi.

Webber has superior speed and quickness on Pettit, and he'll draw Bob away from the basket, somewhat limiting his rebounding prowess.

Doc will destroy Rice.

And the advantage for Sabonis is also overstated. Same thing as with Magic, really. I trust Thurmond to guard him well in the post, and while Sabonis had ability on the perimeter, it's not like he's going to blow by his defend, a la Kobe or MJ, and dunk on someone. He didn't have THAT ability.

All in all, I'm currently leaning towards BN, but it's close. Very close. And I want to hear from Buffalo.

[wally_world]

I vote Team Wally. Isiah has beaten both MJ and Magic. And Bill Russell is god.

[barkleynash]

I vote Team Wally. Isiah has beaten both MJ and Magic. And Bill Russell is god.

haha well played :applause:



As for Magic's 3 point shooting, it was exactly what you said, he's a set shooter which is fine. Just there to keep spacing and the D honest, I don't need him to break Payton down and hit a pull up 3, that's never been his game. He'll get his 3's off post up kick outs, drive and kicks and good ball rotations out of doubles. If Magic is posting up that means Sabonis is on the 3 point line who is an equally good spot up shooter who needs to be respected and Sabonis can also drive to the hoop! His game was complete, check out old ass Sabonis blowing by Prime Shaq and dunking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTqLJOVv-iQ You don't have to have Kobe or MJ's game to blow by a center who's not familiar with perimeter defence and who is also aware that he could have a 3 dropped on him if he sags too much.

And for no other reason other than it's a cool video and I'm pumping up the Sabas bandwagon, check out a 20 year old Arvydas shattering a backboard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTqLJOVv-iQ (the best replay is at the 1 min mark)

Add in Kawhi who can knock down the 3 ball (38%) and obviously one of the GOAT long ballers of the game in Oscar Schmidt and spacing won't be an issue especially considering Pettit's deadly ability in the midrange.

[hangintheair]

I will wait for buffalo's response first

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Is Sabonis in his prime not coming over when he was washed up? It's a pretty important to state that.

[Buffalobraves]

I'm changing up the strategy a little for this series. The starters will remain the same but I'm going with heavy minutes off the bench for Hardaway and Rodman. Rodman is best equipped out of anyone to try to shut down Magic and could do a decent job of it. Having Rodman out there with major minutes seriously impairs my offense (although really helps rebounding) so I'm giving Hardaway serious minutes to come in and help spacing. Jordan would cover Dr. J for most of the game or Payton when he's in the game. Hardaway would check Kawhi.

I like the offensive match up for my team of Webber vs Pettit. I don't think he has a good skill set to match up with Webber if he gets the ball at the elbow. He will either beat him to the elbow and get a jumper or be able to get by him to the basket.

Thurmond could do a pretty solid job on Sabonis. He's a serious athlete and could could do a good job of keeping up with Sabonis laterally. Thurmond is only 225 and moved pretty fluidly, Sabonis wouldn't be able to blow by him. The guy is one of the best defensive centers to ever play the game, I don't think Sabonis has a huge advantage.

Schmidt is though to evaluate in this because there's no NBA experience to draw from but I think his effectiveness is being overstated here. He had the ability to score like crazy but its all in inferior leagues. I'm not saying Schmidt wouldn't be effective but he wouldn't be as effective as his numbers suggest. A long 6' 10" guy who can score like crazy, Schmidt's game has shades of Durant who Tony Allen is known for doing a great job of defending. I'd like my chances of throwing TA out there to slow down Oscar.

Noah and Divac have similar skill sets and should offset each other. Klay and Rice (will start but play bench minutes) will offset each other as shooter.

I think I take it in 7. I have proven winners and can throw Rodman to upset Magic and hopefully disrupt the flow of his team with his best playmaker getting hounded. My spacing is still good with Hardaway and Jordan on the floor together and Webber getting to the basket. If I'm getting baskets offensively I don't think any team could keep up with mine in this draft.

[barkleynash]

Is Sabonis in his prime not coming over when he was washed up? It's a pretty important to state that.

All the years of the players chosen are on the OP

I have the 86 pre injury version of Sabonis. At this point he was still very skilled (wouldn't have been quite the passer obviously or as savvy) and still a very good athlete who could rebound like a mofo, get out and run and dunk over people and block shots.

[kshutts1]

Buffalo, none of us question that you can D up with the best of them. But how are you going to score? What is your game plan?

[kurple]

Buffalo, none of us question that you can D up with the best of them. But how are you going to score? What is your game plan?
michael jordan

[Buffalobraves]

Buffalo, none of us question that you can D up with the best of them. But how are you going to score? What is your game plan?

Take advantage of mismatches and keep the ball moving. Most of the offense goes through Jordan and Webber. Either Jordan gets the ball on the wing after a screen from Rodman/Thurmond or Webber gets it on the elbow and faces up Pettit. Hardaway/Payton getting the occasional breakdown to keep it flowing and can kick to Rice or dish to a slashing Rodman. Thurmond would get the occasional feed in the low post. Thurmond and Rodman make a great presence on the offensive boards. A lot of our points would come off the fast break because of our defense.

[barkleynash]

Take advantage of mismatches and keep the ball moving. Most of the offense goes through Jordan and Webber. Either Jordan gets the ball on the wing after a screen from Rodman/Thurmond or Webber gets it on the elbow and faces up Pettit. Hardaway/Payton getting the occasional breakdown to keep it flowing and can kick to Rice or dish to a slashing Rodman. Thurmond would get the occasional feed in the low post. Thurmond and Rodman make a great presence on the offensive boards. A lot of our points would come off the fast break because of our defense.

This is the right game plan as Jordan and CWebb are clearly your best options but at the same time this is why Payton and Hardaway won't be nearly as useful or effective. Both of them are ball dominant players and to be used as almost an afterthought 3rd option will stunt their production and their ability to effect the series.

On our side of it Magic will be leading a much more balanced attack with superior ball movement getting Dr J, Pettit and Sabonis all the touches when and where they need it.

Also I totally agree that Buffalo's team would get buckets in the open court as they are well equipped for that and hopefully they fall in love with the up and down game as that plays to our strength of run and gun.

And I gotta say it... Having stretches with all 3 of Thurmond, Rodman and Webber all on the court will obviously be great for rebounding but it's gonna absolutely kill your spacing even if Hardaway is out there. Personally I don't think it's a good trade off. "Clog City"

[Buffalobraves]

This is the right game plan as Jordan and CWebb are clearly your best options but at the same time this is why Payton and Hardaway won't be nearly as useful or effective. Both of them are ball dominant players and to be used as almost an afterthought 3rd option will stunt their production and their ability to effect the series.

On our side of it Magic will be leading a much more balanced attack with superior ball movement getting Dr J, Pettit and Sabonis all the touches when and where they need it.

Also I totally agree that Buffalo's team would get buckets in the open court as they are well equipped for that and hopefully they fall in love with the up and down game as that plays to our strength of run and gun.

And I gotta say it... Having stretches with all 3 of Thurmond, Rodman and Webber all on the court will obviously be great for rebounding but it's gonna absolutely kill your spacing even if Hardaway is out there. Personally I don't think it's a good trade off. "Clog City"

Yeah but I think the trade off stops what you discussed earlier. Magic won't be able to get your balanced attack off as well as you'd like with Rodman on him who is probably one of the best equipped guys in the history of the game to stop Magic from getting the offense into a rhythm.

I think Clog city is a stretch for my line up. Webber could stretch almost the the 3 point line and even though Rodman couldn't shoot he always ran around making great screen and cutting to the net exactly when he needed to.

[barkleynash]

Yeah but I think the trade off stops what you discussed earlier. Magic won't be able to get your balanced attack off as well as you'd like with Rodman on him who is probably one of the best equipped guys in the history of the game to stop Magic from getting the offense into a rhythm.

I think Clog city is a stretch for my line up. Webber could stretch almost the the 3 point line and even though Rodman couldn't shoot he always ran around making great screen and cutting to the net exactly when he needed to.

Rodman is great at what he does and he would do the best at slowing down Magic on your team but he wouldn't come close to stopping him. Great offence almost always trumps great defence unless the whole team is focused on one guy (ala Piston Jordan Rules) but this team is far too deep and talented to focus on stopping just one guy, just like our squad couldn't just focus all our energy on stopping MJ, but with you having 3 bigs out there with him for long stretches it certainly helps our cause.

I feel you are under rating Rice's importance to your squad, the guy could flat out shoot and had to be respected from deep (same reason I play Schmidt a hefty 30 min off the bench...and to keep him happy also)

Anyways I guess our differing philosophies (offence first vs defence first) make this a compelling matchup. We'll see how the voters decide, good luck amigo :cheers:

[Buffalobraves]

Rodman is great at what he does and he would do the best at slowing down Magic on your team but he wouldn't come close to stopping him. Great offence almost always trumps great defence unless the whole team is focused on one guy (ala Piston Jordan Rules) but this team is far too deep and talented to focus on stopping just one guy, just like our squad couldn't just focus all our energy on stopping MJ, but with you having 3 bigs out there with him for long stretches it certainly helps our cause.

I feel you are under rating Rice's importance to your squad, the guy could flat out shoot and had to be respected from deep (same reason I play Schmidt a hefty 30 min off the bench...and to keep him happy also)

Anyways I guess our differing philosophies (offence first vs defence first) make this a compelling matchup. We'll see how the voters decide, good luck amigo :cheers:

Rice is definitely a great piece on my team and we have great spacing with him on the court but since the playoffs started I've been placing more focus on defense than offense and decided to give Rodman more minutes. Rodman and Webber were both too valuable to be sitting.

Good luck you you as well BN :cheers:

[kshutts1]

The spacing "issue" doesn't worry me all that much, as neither team can really shoot. Both have shooters, but neither team can really set a shooting lineup out there.

Rodman, Thurmond and any other big would be fine with something like Jordan and Rice on the court, or Hardaway and Rice, etc.

If the matchup comes down to a defensive, grind-it-out affair, or "clog city", then I like Buffalo.

How does BN counter Clog City? You said no one person can stop Magic, and that's mostly true. But let's say that Buffalo puts out... Jordan, Rice, Rodman, Webber, Thurmond. How will BN attack that lineup? How will BN exploit that lineup?

[Leroy Jetson]

Team 1.

[barkleynash]

CONGRATS TO BUFFALO FOR TAKING HOME THE TITLE!!!


:dancin :djparty :hammertime: :party: :party: :applause:

[Buffalobraves]

:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

This was fun. Thanks to everyone who participated especially BN for keeping this up so well and seeing it through all the way to the end.

[kshutts1]

Yeah, thanks to BN for keeping this going, for real.

Also glad that at least half of the owners were active.

[wally_world]

:eek: over so soon? was gonna come in and vote. sorry for MIA this round and congrats Buffalo! Thanks BNash for running this tournament as well.