Throwback: Kobe seals the division title @Portland

[ImKobe]

One of the greatest closer moments in NBA history, just look at the difficulty of those shots and what was at stake...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79y_YCkHhso

down 3 at the end of regulation

top of the key, 25 ft, man draped all over him, splash

overtime, Lakers down 2, 1 second remaining

fallaway three off a catch & shoot, lightning release, splash.

There's no better closer in NBA history than Kobe Bean Bryant. Two shots moved Portland down 2 Playoff spots, just like that.

[r15mohd]

One of the greatest closer moments in NBA history, just look at the difficulty of those shots and what was at stake...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79y_YCkHhso

down 3 at the end of regulation

top of the key, 25 ft, man draped all over him, splash

overtime, Lakers down 2, 1 second remaining

fallaway three off a catch & shoot, lightning release, splash.

There's no better closer in NBA history than Kobe Bean Bryant. Two shots moved Portland down 2 Playoff spots, just like that.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chicago-Bulls-Michael-Jordan-Last-Shot-Game-Six-vs-Utah-Jazz.gif

[ImKobe]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chicago-Bulls-Michael-Jordan-Last-Shot-Game-Six-vs-Utah-Jazz.gif

Wide open jump shot, offensive foul.

[r15mohd]

Wide open jump shot, offensive foul.

:coleman: :coleman: :coleman:


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Michael-Jordan-The-Shot-Over-Craig-Ehlo.gif

[Beastmode88]

Pauk probably has that game winner as one of kobe's "flops".

[mehyaM24]

lol at kobe being the greatest at anything, but especially game winners.

in the playoffs he converts in the 30 percentile (below average). jordan and lebron are both above 40% (jordan 50%). <-- real closers

[ImKobe]

:coleman: :coleman: :coleman:


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Michael-Jordan-The-Shot-Over-Craig-Ehlo.gif

Basically an open shot, Craig was too slow to keep up with him, only got there to contest when he was going up already...easy shot for a player of MJ's caliber.

[navy]

There's no better closer in NBA history than Kobe Bean Bryant.
:biggums:

[ImKobe]

lol at kobe being the greatest at anything, but especially game winners.

in the playoffs he converts in the 30 percentile (below average). jordan and lebron are both above 40% (jordan 50%). <-- real closers

It's not just about hitting one shot that wins the game. I'd put Lebron after Kobe in terms of making tough clutch shots. Jordan was great at getting easy shots in those situations, but he wasn't as good of a shooter as Kobe or Lebron. His efficiency is inflated by all the easy layups/dunks he got because he was so much quicker than everyone else.

Kobe-MJ-Lebron are the top 3 clutchest players in NBA history, I'm not mad at anyone that picks either one of them.

[ArbitraryWater]

One of the greatest closer moments in NBA history, just look at the difficulty of those shots and what was at stake...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79y_YCkHhso

down 3 at the end of regulation

top of the key, 25 ft, man draped all over him, splash

overtime, Lakers down 2, 1 second remaining

fallaway three off a catch & shoot, lightning release, splash.

There's no better closer in NBA history than Kobe Bean Bryant. Two shots moved Portland down 2 Playoff spots, just like that.

Just stop it, dude :facepalm

You really couldn't have made this thread without that garbage at the end?

[KyleKong]

There's no better closer in NBA history than Kobe Bean Bryant.

Statistics point out the opposite

[ImKobe]

Just stop it, dude :facepalm

You really couldn't have made this thread without that garbage at the end?

You choose to pick on that. It's my personal opinion. You could discuss the game or something related to it, instead you guys post gifs of MJ and bold one sentence. It's my opinion, get over it. Like I said in a previous post, I'm not mad if you pick MJ or Lebron over Kobe in terms of clutch play, so don't be mad at me for being biased :confusedshrug:, we all are.

[atljonesbro]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chicago-Bulls-Michael-Jordan-Last-Shot-Game-Six-vs-Utah-Jazz.gif
That was definitely an offensive foul lol

[BuffaloBill]

That was insane. Kobe has hit some damn near impossible shots in his career.

[mehyaM24]

It's not just about hitting one shot that wins the game. I'd put Lebron after Kobe in terms of making tough clutch shots. Jordan was great at getting easy shots in those situations, but he wasn't as good of a shooter as Kobe or Lebron. His efficiency is inflated by all the easy layups/dunks he got because he was so much quicker than everyone else.

Kobe-MJ-Lebron are the top 3 clutchest players in NBA history, I'm not mad at anyone that picks either one of them.

we are talking about game winners, but you changed the subject because the stats destroyed you.

hare are kobe's clutch stats..
- 46/155 .297% on career game winners
- 7/28 .250% on playoff game winners
- 333/808 FG .412% in 37 career finals games
- 38/108 FG.351% in the 5 title clinchers
- 152/367 FG .414% in career elimination games
- 43/113 FG .380% in career game 7s

IOW, kobe does not belong in lebron and jordan's class.

[sbw19]

Silence after Kobe swished that 2nd shot.

[ImKobe]

we are talking about game winners, but you changed the subject because the stats destroyed you.

hare are kobe's clutch stats..
- 46/155 .297% on career game winners
- 7/28 .250% on playoff game winners
- 333/808 FG .412% in 37 career finals games
- 38/108 FG.351% in the 5 title clinchers
- 152/367 FG .414% in career elimination games
- 43/113 FG .380% in career game 7s

IOW, kobe does not belong in lebron and jordan's class.

Kobe is 71% (5 out of 7) in the NBA Finals.

[mehyaM24]

Kobe is 71% (5 out of 7) in the NBA Finals.
pau gasol, shaq and phil jackson say hi

keep moving the goal posts though. i have facts for days. :banana:

[ImKobe]

Silence after Kobe swished that 2nd shot.


At least someone has the integrity not to de-rail my thread and actually post about the video.

Watch this turn into another 5+ page thread about Kobe vs. everyone.

Y'all pathetic for doing this shit. This thread is not about Kobe vs Lebron/MJ.

[ImKobe]

pau gasol, shaq and phil jackson say hi

Jordan didn't have Phil & Scottie(who was the best defender and playmaker on the Bulls)? Lebron didn't have Wade, Bosh, Allen, Miller?

Haters act like Kobe is the only player in NBA history who had teammates/help to win his titles, like every other all-time great won on their own.

[ImKobe]

pau gasol, shaq and phil jackson say hi

keep moving the goal posts though. i have facts for days. :banana:

This thread is about Kobe's clutch shots versus Portland.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe is 71% (5 out of 7) in the NBA Finals.

Kobe's teams are... your criteria is getting more and more off topic.


You could discuss the game or something related to it, instead you guys post gifs of MJ and bold one sentence. It's my opinion, get over it.

Not me. And maybe, just maybe, because MJ >>>>>> Kobe as closer.


This thread is about Kobe's clutch shots versus Portland.

You also made it about Kobe being the GOAT closer.

[mehyaM24]

Jordan didn't have Phil & Scottie(who was the best defender and playmaker on the Bulls)? Lebron didn't have Wade, Bosh, Allen, Miller?
jordan wasn't outplayed by scottie pippen in any/all title runs (shaq finals mvp over kobe 3 straight finals).

how many finals mvps do wade and bosh have over lebron?


Haters act like Kobe is the only player in NBA history who had teammates/help to win his titles, like every other all-time great won on their own.
lets get back to clutch stats. i am destroying all the peanut butter and jelly gospel you are flinging.

[ImKobe]

Kobe's teams are... your criteria is getting more and more off topic.



Not me. And maybe, just maybe, because MJ >>>>>> Kobe as closer.



You also made it about Kobe being the GOAT closer.

It's just my opinion. We'll just agree to disagree. I'm not here to go back-and-forth about other people's personal opinions.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe has the most game winners in NBA history.

Too alpha to worry about percentages.

[ImKobe]

jordan wasn't outplayed by scottie pippen in all titles (shaq finals mvp over kobe 3 straight finals).

how many finals mvps do wade and bosh have over lebron?


lets get back to clutch stats. i am destroying all the peanut butter and jelly gospel you are flinging.

First off, are the Finals the only thing that decide whether a team wins a title or not? Do you discount everything players do prior to those series, or the match-ups, strength of teams? Kobe outperformed Shaq in many Playoff series against tougher opponents than those in the Finals. Yeah, Shaq feasted on the weak ass front courts in the Finals due to his physical ability and obviously the Lakers used the mis-matches Shaq had down low to get easy points, Kobe still played well in the Finals during the three-peat and closed games out (2000 Finals Game 6 with Shaq out, what did an injured Kobe do in OT?), 2002 Finals, every close game Kobe dominated. Check Kobe's stats against the Spurs in those Finals runs, b2b 45/10 games in 2001, leading the Playoffs in winshares on the most dominant team in Playoff history.

Secondly, Wade would have had a Finals MVP over Lebron in 2011, if he didn't play like a role player, so it's not like Lebron hasn't been outplayed by a teammate in an NBA Finals.

Third, nowhere did I say that Kobe was the best closer by statistics, and you have a different understanding when it comes to "closing" a basketball game.

Kobe shot poorly in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals, but he closed the game in the 4th quarter. He shot 25% for the game but played well in the 4th, scoring some buckets, the play that led to the Artest 3, hitting clutch FTs...

If you feel like Kobe is not the best, fine, I'll let you have your opinion, but if you start saying shit like Kobe is nowhere near close or is not on the same level, you can piss off.



Kobe has the most game winners in NBA history.

Too alpha to worry about percentages.

this guy gets it. Kobe doesn't care about being efficient. He does what he wants. He will take the shot before he'd ever pass it to Udonis Haslem.

[KyleKong]

Kobe is 71% (5 out of 7) in the NBA Finals.

Those Lakers teams are 71% bruh, not just Kobe.

[Droid101]

Look at all these losers trying to change the subject, can't even admit some epic shots when they see them. Really, really sad to have all this hatred and frustration in their lives.

[lakerspng]

Beig clutch is about more than hitting a single shot as the clock hits 0. It's a combination of plays down the stretch in a close game that gives your team the chance to win games... Kobe is one of the best players down the stretch in games in the history of the nba. That's why lakers fans have always held his clutch ability in such high regard. He has always found a way to come through for us in tight games, miraculously so at times.

On the subject, that performance against Portland was f'n amazing.

[sbw19]

At least someone has the integrity not to de-rail my thread and actually post about the video.
I remember watching the 4th qtr and OT of this game live yet the ending never gets old.

You could sense the announcer's sense of pessimism as Kobe caught the inbound and shot the ball.

"Bryant for three..."

"..................."

He knew Kobe was going for the win, and he knew he was going to nail that shot. Portland had every right to hate Kobe; he just loved to torture them.

[ImKobe]

Beig clutch is about more than hitting a single shot as the clock hits 0. It's a combination of plays down the stretch in a close game that gives your team the chance to win games... Kobe is one of the best players down the stretch in games in the history of the nba. That's why lakers fans have always held his clutch ability in such high regard. He has always found a way to come through for us in tight games, miraculously so at times.

This. Remember the Hornets game from 2012? Kobe was like 2-20 in that game and hit the shot to win the game. Boxscore watchers will be like LOL Kobe sucks, shoots 3-21 when he still came through at the end.

And let's not act like Kobe does clutch things on one end of the floor, remember the game-saving block on Sabonis in 2000? Pippen mad as hell :oldlol: + leading the team in 4 different categories in Game 7 of that series...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5T1b9o8Js4

[mehyaM24]

First off, are the Finals the only thing that decide whether a team wins a title or not? Do you discount everything players do prior to those series, or the match-ups, strength of teams? Kobe outperformed Shaq in many Playoff series against tougher opponents than those in the Finals. Yeah, Shaq feasted on the weak ass front courts in the Finals due to his physical ability and obviously the Lakers used the mis-matches Shaq had down low to get easy points, Kobe still played well in the Finals during the three-peat and closed games out (2000 Finals Game 6 with Shaq out, what did an injured Kobe do in OT?), 2002 Finals, every close game Kobe dominated. Check Kobe's stats against the Spurs in those Finals runs, b2b 45/10 games in 2001, leading the Playoffs in winshares on the most dominant team in Playoff history.

first of all, nobody said clutch shots were ONLY determined by game winners. you posted a game winner, which i presumably countered with game winning statistics (and later, all around clutch ability which you decided to ignore and then switch topics).

secondly, once again, you are using semantics.. nobody claimed the finals mvp was the end all be all to leading your team. shaq had superior stats for the majority of title runs with the lakers, clearly outplaying bryant in both the regular season and playoffs/finals (backed by his mvp candidacy and all NBA teams). same goes for lebron. same goes for jordan. of course, you understood this and just wanted to derail the ORIGINAL discussion, because the FACTS challenge your preconceived notions.

so lets bring this back full circle.. once more, you ask the majority of people “who’s more clutch?” more than likely most are a) casuals - and they always reply with kobe. why? because of the fictitious narrative that is put out there by ESPN and other crappy media outlets that Kobe is an “assassin” (meaning, kobe is a threat to shoot from half court if need be during clutch sitations - he monopolizes ALL the possessions down the stretch).

thing is, cold-hard facts dispute these fairy tales of volume chucking. for example, lebron and miami 2 seasons ago missed EIGHT consecutive clutch shots in the regular season (4th qtr or OT with 24 seconds or less - not the end all be all of clutch - just an example). now, while the regular season is important, and these numbers hurt the heat, they weren't in the playoffs which holds more weight.

kobe OTH also missed his last EIGHT clutch shots (same definition) but the difference was it was in the playoffs.. that's the funny part.


this isn’t hating. just look at kobe vs gasol in the 4th quarter of the 2009 and 2010 NBA Finals (which is why you bringing up titles is irrelevant to clutch ability).

kobe: 10-29 in 4th quarters in 2009; 12-41 (29%) in 4th quarters in 2010
gasol: 10-17 in 4th quarters in 2009; 10-17 in 4th quarters again in 2010

i dont need or have to post lebron and jordans numbers, where they clearly out-perform kobe in the post season - in all circumstances: last 24sec, 30sec, 2 min, 5 min, g7s and elimination games.

whats more, its not about me "having an opinion". these are all FACTS. you cant twist them. you cant break them. they are there. forever. nothing you can do about it kobe fans.

[tpols]

this isn’t hating. just look at kobe vs gasol in the 4th quarter of the 2009 and 2010 NBA Finals (which is why you bringing up titles is irrelevant to clutch ability).

kobe: 10-29 in 4th quarters in 2009; 12-41 (29%) in 4th quarters in 2010
gasol: 10-17 in 4th quarters in 2009; 10-17 in 4th quarters again in 2010



thing is, cold-hard facts dispute these fairy tales of volume chucking. for example, lebron and miami 2 seasons ago missed EIGHT consecutive clutch shots in the regular season (4th qtr or OT with 24 seconds or less - not the end all be all of clutch - just an example). now, while the regular season is important, and these numbers hurt the heat, they weren't in the playoffs which holds more weight.

Since were using 7 game samples as proof...

http://ihatelebronjames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBron-Choke.jpg

Is this the worst playoff superstar choke of all time? :D

Not only was he missing.. he was too afraid to shoot. Pau looks like shotjacking kobe at his peak compared to this meek, timid bran performance.

[HOoopCityJones]

Since were using 7 game samples as proof...

http://ihatelebronjames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBron-Choke.jpg

Is this the worst playoff superstar choke of all time? :D

Not only was he missing.. he was too afraid to shoot. Pau looks like shotjacking kobe at his peak compared to this meek, timid bran performance.

That Ether.

[lakerspng]

There are a number of players that have better "clutch stat"s than kobe. His usage in the 4th quarter is huge, always has been, which both helps and hurts him in that regard. Doesn't change the fact that his play in tight games over the course of his career is why we have the championships that we do over the last 15-20 years. We Lakers fans appreciate that. Shaq deserved the Finals MVP in 2000 by a ridiculously wide margin, but if not for Kobe's ability to take over a win games for us, the Blazers or Pacers are hoisting that trophy. It's easy to say, oh any good shooting guard could have done the same.... but they didn't, he did and we have trusted in his ability, skills, determination and refuse to lose attitude ever since. His "clutch myth" is not built from BS, it's built from countless instances where his play directly made the difference between winning and losing, from defensive plays, to rebounds, to shots, to assists, you name it.... he comes through for us more often than not. Just like anything else, it's going to be hyped by sports journalists because that's what they do, for him or any other player.

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]first of all, nobody said clutch shots were ONLY determined by game winners. you posted a game winner, which i presumably countered with game winning statistics (and later, all around clutch ability which you decided to ignore and then switch topics).

secondly, once again, you are using semantics.. nobody claimed the finals mvp was the end all be all to leading your team. shaq had superior stats for the majority of title runs with the lakers, clearly outplaying bryant in both the regular season and playoffs/finals (backed by his mvp candidacy and all NBA teams). same goes for lebron. same goes for jordan. of course, you understood this and just wanted to derail the ORIGINAL discussion, because the FACTS challenge your preconceived notions.

so lets bring this back full circle.. once more, you ask the majority of people

[ImKobe]

Since were using 7 game samples as proof...

http://ihatelebronjames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBron-Choke.jpg

Is this the worst playoff superstar choke of all time? :D

Not only was he missing.. he was too afraid to shoot. Pau looks like shotjacking kobe at his peak compared to this meek, timid bran performance.

People hate on Kobe for not being efficient in his Finals wins, but disregard the shitshow that Bran gave us in the 2011 Finals. Best example of a single player losing a championship for his team. You can talk shit about Kobe in that Detroit series (bet none of you have watched a full quarter of any game of that series), but at least when it was crunch time, Kobe closed a damn game.

[chazzy]

for example, lebron 2 seasons ago missed EIGHT consecutive clutch shots in the regular season
Does that not tell you how much noise and variance there is with this stat? Especially when you limit it to only playoff game winners, which is a tiny sample size?

[tpols]

People hate on Kobe for not being efficient in his Finals wins, but disregard the shitshow that Bran gave us in the 2011 Finals. Best example of a single player losing a championship for his team. You can talk shit about Kobe in that Detroit series (bet none of you have watched a full quarter of any game of that series), but at least when it was crunch time, Kobe closed a damn game.

You cant even call bran 'clutch' after performances like 2011 finals and down stretches of games in 2013 Finals.. guy is a legitamate choke artist on a level no other top 10 GOAT has ever been.

Not just like, a guy who plays like shit overall from time to time like kobe.. but more like a guy who mentally crumbles and loses faith in himself in times of dire need.. nobody rivals lebron in that department.

[ImKobe]

Does that not tell you how much noise and variance there is with this stat? Especially when you limit it to only playoff game winners, which is a tiny sample size?

Plus, there's a difference between what type of shots players get in crunch time. It depends on what teams you play on, how fatigued/tired you are at the end of the game, how many jump shots you take, what is the % they are contested at, sample size...

Lebron gets game-winning layups for crying out loud, you think Kobe wouldn't make a game-winning layup, if defenses gave him that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJslBChMVrk

He could do this all day

[juju151111]

Why are you trying to hard to change my opinion? Are you blind? I even said Kobe's not the best by statistics. You give me useless numbers with zero context to go with it. Pau Gasol doesn't get the same shots that Kobe does, he gets them off a Kobe miss or Kobe sets it up for him, you can also see how his volume is much smaller, as well.

People compare numbers to eachother like the players were in identical situations and took the same shot. If Pau Gasol was shooting contested jumpers in clutch situations, you really think he'd even be half as efficient as Kobe? He couldn't make it as a stretch 4 in the D'Antoni system, shooting wide open jumpers, so that's all you need to know about Pau.

Kobe makes the toughest clutch shots in NBA history, only the eye test can prove that. Anyone that's devoted to watching the games knows this. Who else does shit like this, Kobe in his 17th NBA season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQd2h4X0O2E

stats can't explain this. You can roll me up all the numbers you want but the footage is there. Kobe's had too many of these games to be denied by some average joe with google, who has zero knowledge and insight when it comes to the NBA.

You can now quit hijacking my thread with this bullshit. If you want to discuss Kobe's clutch statistics, go make your own thread and leave that bullshit there.

Thanks in advance.
Your the one who claim ed Kobe was the best clutch performer. He just proving that argument wrong.

[mehyaM24]

Why are you trying to hard to change my opinion? Are you blind? I even said Kobe's not the best by statistics. You give me useless numbers with zero context to go with it. Pau Gasol doesn't get the same shots that Kobe does, he gets them off a Kobe miss or Kobe sets it up for him, you can also see how his volume is much smaller, as well.

People compare numbers to eachother like the players were in identical situations and took the same shot. If Pau Gasol was shooting contested jumpers in clutch situations, you really think he'd even be half as efficient as Kobe? He couldn't make it as a stretch 4 in the D'Antoni system, shooting wide open jumpers, so that's all you need to know about Pau.

Kobe makes the toughest clutch shots in NBA history, only the eye test can prove that. Anyone that's devoted to watching the games knows this. Who else does shit like this, Kobe in his 17th NBA season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQd2h4X0O2E

stats can't explain this. You can roll me up all the numbers you want but the footage is there. Kobe's had too many of these games to be denied by some average joe with google, who has zero knowledge and insight when it comes to the NBA.

You can now quit hijacking my thread with this bullshit. If you want to discuss Kobe's clutch statistics, go make your own thread and leave that bullshit there.

Thanks in advance.

last updated in 2012 i believe

FGA FGM FGP
Carmelo Anthony 21 44 47.7
Chris Paul 14 31 45.2
Shawn Marion 12 30 40
Brandon Roy 12 30 40
Hedo Turkoglu 12 30 40
Rashard Lewis 18 46 39.1
Glenn Robinson 14 36 38.9
Deron Williams 14 36 38.9
Mike Bibby 15 39 38.5
Dirk Nowitzki 25 65 38.5
Jalen Rose 12 32 37.5
Tim Duncan 23 62 37.1
Eddie Jones 13 36 36.1
Karl Malone 11 31 35.5
Ben Gordon 17 49 34.7
Chris Webber 18 52 34.6
Raymond Felton 12 36 33.3
LeBron James 23 69 33.3
Ray Allen 23 70 32.9
Gilbert Arenas 13 40 32.5
Vince Carter 31 96 32.3
Steve Francis 14 44 31.8
Damon Stoudamire 12 38 31.6
Nick Van Exel 16 51 31.4
Kobe Bryant 36 115 31.3

^^^^ kobe is a 31.3% shooter in clutch situations - and as you can see, he takes THE MOST shots, of course he makes tough shots. he takes them ALL.

i'll repeat: kobe takes the most, whether they are good and bad shots. that is the MAIN difference here.

and again - its not an opinion. kobe being LESS clutch than lebron and jordan is actually 100% fact. 24 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 4th quarters, in the playoffs or regular sesaon or finals - it doesn't matter.

i'll say this.. go on and believe what you want e.g. 2+2 = 5. good luck with that.

[ImKobe]

You cant even call bran 'clutch' after performances like 2011 finals and down stretches of games in 2013 Finals.. guy is a legitamate choke artist on a level no other top 10 GOAT has ever been.

Not just like, a guy who plays like shit overall from time to time like kobe.. but more like a guy who mentally crumbles and loses faith in himself in times of dire need.. nobody rivals lebron in that department.

To Bran's credit, he had a great Game 7.

My problem with Lebron is that I always saw the greatness in him. The ability to be the next MJ, or even beyond that because of the way he plays the game.

It just seems to me that when the pressure is at it's highest, more often than none he flat out chokes. I think he's great at making contested shots, but he doesn't take enough of them. He is too afraid to fail. If the shot isn't easy enough for him, he automatically searches for a teammate to bail him out. It has worked at times, but in most cases it has failed. So you can talk shit about how overall he is more efficient than Kobe at taking clutch shots, but look at his sample size, give me the number of clutch shots he has passed up.

Both Kobe and Lebron are flawed in their own way. One is over-aggressive and has exceeded expectations, while the other seems to be mentally weak and too passive. In Kobe's case, he went from a 13th draft pick and a role player to being called the next Michael and during his prime, a future GOAT.

In Lebron's case, he came into the league wearing the number 23, adopting Michael's famous powder toss. He put those expectations on himself. He's the one with "Chosen One" tattooed on his back. Then people come at me like "why you hate on Lebron? He got MVPs, rings", I've always said that I don't HATE the guy, I really like his game when he's taking it to the other team. He can be very dominant at times. That first title changed him for the better, but he still at times pisses me off.

Kobe didn't pass it to scrub Kwame Brown because he was wide open in the clutch, he knew he was the best player in the game, he took it on himself to make a basket when needed. Why does Lebron pass it to Udonis Haslem or someone else when there's a couple seconds left? Why is he afraid to fail?
You can roll me up that Spurs Game 7, but let's not forget that he made wide open jump shots in those situations. You let Kobe breathe like that and there's a very good chance he'll make those shots, too.


Sorry for going off-topic on this shit and writing so many paragraphs, but I felt like I had to let it out. Point is that numbers are nothing without context. People think they know shit when they google numbers and just put them aside one another, without knowing anything about the context.

Statistics without context are just numbers.

[ImKobe]

last updated in 2012 i believe

FGA FGM FGP
Carmelo Anthony 21 44 47.7
Chris Paul 14 31 45.2
Shawn Marion 12 30 40
Brandon Roy 12 30 40
Hedo Turkoglu 12 30 40
Rashard Lewis 18 46 39.1
Glenn Robinson 14 36 38.9
Deron Williams 14 36 38.9
Mike Bibby 15 39 38.5
Dirk Nowitzki 25 65 38.5
Jalen Rose 12 32 37.5
Tim Duncan 23 62 37.1
Eddie Jones 13 36 36.1
Karl Malone 11 31 35.5
Ben Gordon 17 49 34.7
Chris Webber 18 52 34.6
Raymond Felton 12 36 33.3
LeBron James 23 69 33.3
Ray Allen 23 70 32.9
Gilbert Arenas 13 40 32.5
Vince Carter 31 96 32.3
Steve Francis 14 44 31.8
Damon Stoudamire 12 38 31.6
Nick Van Exel 16 51 31.4
Kobe Bryant 36 115 31.3

^^^^ kobe is a 31.3% shooter in clutch situations - and as you can see, he takes THE MOST shots, of course he makes tough shots. he takes them ALL.

i'll repeat: kobe takes the most, whether they are good and bad shots. that is the MAIN difference here.

and again - its not an opinion. kobe being LESS clutch than lebron and jordan is actually 100% fact. 24 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 4th quarters, in the playoffs or regular sesaon or finals - it doesn't matter.

i'll say this.. go on and believe what you want e.g. 2+2 = 5. good luck with that.

Majority of those guys have 2-3x less attempts in those situations. Do you not see that the guys near the bottom have more shot attempts than the guys with the higher %s? I guess by your logic, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu are more clutch than Kobe. Look at the number of attempts. Kobe is often forced to take a low % shot, especially on those horrible mid-2000s Laker teams.

Kobe had 6 game-winners in one NBA season (2009-10), thats more than half Malone had for his career (per your list, I doubt those numbers are even legit, as Malone only took 31 clutch shots in his 20-year career? :lol)

You are highly skilled at rolling up numbers via Google, but have you seen all of their attempts and how impactful they were?

It is an opinion. You don't know nearly enough to say that it's a fact that player A is less clutch than player B. All you know is the numbers you read off your screen, which anyone else with Internet access could do.

[necya]

One of the greatest closer moments in NBA history, just look at the difficulty of those shots and what was at stake...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79y_YCkHhso

down 3 at the end of regulation

top of the key, 25 ft, man draped all over him, splash

overtime, Lakers down 2, 1 second remaining

fallaway three off a catch & shoot, lightning release, splash.

There's no better closer in NBA history than Kobe Bean Bryant. Two shots moved Portland down 2 Playoff spots, just like that.

you are a nobody, any superstars would avoid to get hardcore stupid fans like you for sure.

[ImKobe]

you are a nobody, any superstars would avoid to get hardcore stupid fans like you for sure.

And who's alt might you be? Stay mad.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Majority of those guys have 2-3x less attempts in those situations. Do you not see that the guys near the bottom have more shot attempts than the guys with the higher %s? I guess by your logic, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu are more clutch than Kobe. Look at the number of attempts. Kobe is often forced to take a low % shot, especially on those horrible mid-2000s Laker teams.

Kobe had 6 game-winners in one NBA season (2009-10), thats more than half Malone had for his career (per your list, I doubt those numbers are even legit, as Malone only took 31 clutch shots in his 20-year career? :lol)

You are highly skilled at rolling up numbers via Google, but have you seen all of their attempts and how impactful they were?

It is an opinion. You don't know nearly enough to say that it's a fact that player A is less clutch than player B. All you know is the numbers you read off your screen, which anyone else with Internet access could do.

As opposed to you, who is making up shit along the way? Nothing you've posted thus far has made sense. Just pure conjecture and unadulterated fanboi fantasy.

mehya actually bringing facts to the table. I will give him that much.

[juju151111]

Majority of those guys have 2-3x less attempts in those situations. Do you not see that the guys near the bottom have more shot attempts than the guys with the higher %s? I guess by your logic, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu are more clutch than Kobe. Look at the number of attempts. Kobe is often forced to take a low % shot, especially on those horrible mid-2000s Laker teams.

Kobe had 6 game-winners in one NBA season (2009-10), thats more than half Malone had for his career (per your list, I doubt those numbers are even legit, as Malone only took 31 clutch shots in his 20-year career? :lol)

You are highly skilled at rolling up numbers via Google, but have you seen all of their attempts and how impactful they were?

It is an opinion. You don't know nearly enough to say that it's a fact that player A is less clutch than player B. All you know is the numbers you read off your screen, which anyone else with Internet access could do.
Ur opinion isn't based on anything. Kobe is not on Mj level and not even LJ.

[ImKobe]

As opposed to you, who is making up shit along the way? Nothing you've posted thus far has made sense. Just pure conjecture and unadulterated fanboi fantasy.

mehya actually bringing facts to the table. I will give him that much.

He provides 0 context to his precious numbers and some of them aren't even legit...

How does he make sense? He just copy-pastes shit from the internet and acts like it means something. What does Pau Gasol's clutch numbers have anything to do with Kobe's? Does Pau take long-range jumpers (including 3s)? Does Kobe play under the basket, is he a 7-fter that tips in missed shots? How mant shots does Pau create for Kobe in crunch time?

There's 0 context to the numbers he posted. What does the clutch % list (which is also outdated) prove? That guys, who take 3-4x less shots than Kobe are 5-10% more efficient? Really? The players compared to Kobe on that list is even funnier. Why are there random role players that get wide open shots from teammates + big men on that list? What does the list prove? Lebron on that list is 5% more efficient than Kobe while taking 50 less shots.

If you want to objectively rank a certain player's clutch ability or base it off numbers, you have to factor in the quality of the shot (does the player have to force the shot, how many of the shots are contested, how many of them are jump shots)... Everything in that situation counts. I don't even know the quality of the shots the players on that list got compared to Kobe's (since I've followed Kobe all his career, I know exactly what type of shots he gets/takes).


You want to tell me that Kobe hitting the two tough shots against Portland even slightly compare to the game-winning layup Lebron had against Indiana? By statistics, they would both have the same value.


Like I stated many times in this thread. Kobe being the best clutch player is MY opinion. I am cool with it if you feel otherwise, but my opinion is my opinion, why do posters always feel the need to try to change someone's opinion? I didn't say that it's a fact that Kobe's the best or that he's statistically the best, why does anyone here even try to argue me? No one will come out on top at the end. It's just a waste of time to keep arguing over this.


This thread was about Kobe's shots versus the Portland Trailblazers in 2004 to win the Pacific Division. There are maybe 5 posts about the actual thread, rest is just Kobe haters trying to de-rail it.

[mehyaM24]

Majority of those guys have 2-3x less attempts in those situations. Do you not see that the guys near the bottom have more shot attempts than the guys with the higher %s? I guess by your logic, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu are more clutch than Kobe. Look at the number of attempts. Kobe is often forced to take a low % shot, especially on those horrible mid-2000s Laker teams.

because they don't monopolize the ball as much as kobe does. look at guys like lebron and melo. isolation scorers. HOFers. remove his first 8 seasons. kobe is/was still on pace to double their attempts. LOL...

and this entails the clutch myth. when it comes to kobe, his fanatics like "imkobe" thinks he delivers the gamewinners. it’s needed on a regular basis - but i hate to burst your bubble, he's below average in that regard.

since you have no argument. i will just continue drilling the facts.

kobe (up until 2012) was 46/155 in crunch time (29.7%) and 7/28 (25.0%) for potential game tying or go-ahead shots in the playoffs. that is good for 52 for 168 (31%) in total.

lets compare that to others who had to carry their teams scoring and offensive load.

jordan: 33/58 (56.9%) in the regular season and 9/18 (50%) in the playoffs
lebron: 28/91 (30.8%) in the regular season and 7 for 17 (41.2%) in the playoffs
carmelo: 29/66 (43.9%) in the regular season and 1 for 8 (12.5%) in the playoffs

some of you see this information as just numbers, but look who i am comparing the numbers to. other HOFers. other all time greats. a handful of the greatest scoring/offensive weapons in history.

the myths and lies that are told about kobe are just absurd. the media and his fanatics tells blatant lies and twists truths as I have just shown.

inb4 2/5 and 5/7 - team accolades

[ImKobe]

Ur opinion isn't based on anything. Kobe is not on Mj level and not even LJ.

My opinion is based on watching 18 seasons worth of Lakers basketball. I know every clutch shot Kobe has made. I've seen damn near every game from 2000 and beyond. I've seen Jordan. I've seen Lebron. I've seen all the great shots in NBA history.

My opinion is based on all the ridiculous clutch moments Kobe's had over his career, and it's MY OPINION. It doesn't mean that you have to agree or like it, but why must you guys try to attack me over it? I get it. You don't think the same way. Let's just agree to disagree and move on from that.

But no, he must respond with more bullshit.

[Mr. Jabbar]

its hard not to fap at this, i for one, can't, brb

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]because they don't monopolize the ball as much as kobe does. look at guys like lebron and melo. isolation scorers. HOFers. remove his first 8 seasons. kobe is/was still on pace to double their attempts. LOL...

and this entails the clutch myth. when it comes to kobe, his fanatics like "imkobe" thinks he delivers the gamewinners. it

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan's 33 of 58 has been blasted all over the web.... 59%... CLUTCH GOD.

Don't be disrespectful, and look it up yourself, also.

Btw, Setting your criteria to "tough shots" now is embarrassing.... Doesn't get any more subjective than that.

The Facts dont prove it, SO TOUGH SHOTZ DOE!!

Hey, Joe Johnson is the GOAT clutch Player... Because of his tough shots.

[mehyaM24]

Jordan being 33/58 is questionable, I want an actual source to confirm that number (the amount of game-winners seem legit, but only 58 attempts? no way in hell), Lebron and Kobe are damn near identical by FG% in those situations and Kobe has a much larger sample size...so I don't see what this proves. Melo is legit great in crunch time during the regular season, but we all know about him in the Playoffs....I don't know why you even bring him up, since he's nowhere near as great as Kobe or Jordan or Lebron...

i know that jordan's numbers in crunchtime are amazing and hard to believe - but you can look them up on espn and any other reputable news outlet. i do not need to spoon feed you.

lebron has a significantly better ratio in the postseason and melo in the regular season, hence me bringing them into this discussion - that and they have a reasonable volume to draw a statistical comparison.

kobe's ability to make tough shots in crunchtime doesn't make sense, especially when you take into consideration that he converts at a rate BELOW average. its the dilemma in the kobe stan argument. you guys praise tough shots but accuracy and ACTUAL game winners have no real bearing. LOL...yall need jesus.

once again - you can have your opinion if 2 + 2 = 5. people in the realm of reality understand kobe has no legit argument over jordan or lebron when it comes to clutch ability. every factor you can think of, they excel at. lebron has some of the greatest game winners of all time - some contested - some where he, like jordan, alludes defenses making them look like they aren't visible.

what's more, kobe hasn't revolutionized "tough shots". it has always been part of the game. today, kobe takes more tough shots than anyone but he doesn't scare ANY teams. everyone knows he is going to shoot, because he is a predictable ballstopper that actually becomes easy to defend in crunchtime.

http://s30.postimg.org/gh170mey9/bwtxfczcmae_dec_large_png_w_474.png

^^^^ i am not even sure lebron's FGM is updated

[mehyaM24]

Jordan's 33 of 58 has been blasted all over the web.... 59%... CLUTCH GOD.

Don't be disrespectful, and look it up yourself, also.

Btw, Setting your criteria to "tough shots" now is embarrassing.... Doesn't get any more subjective than that.

The Facts dont prove it, SO TOUGH SHOTZ DOE!!

Hey, Joe Johnson is the GOAT clutch Player... Because of his tough shots.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

espn lists suck..
sports illustrated list is biased...
ISH, the forum i post on, doesnt count just because....
stats dont count because numbers are the devil..

blah blah. kobe fanatics are straight up deluded and out of touch.

[riseagainst]

http://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/img_2955.jpg


MJ is the clutch g0d.

[sportjames23]

It's not just about hitting one shot that wins the game. I'd put Lebron after Kobe in terms of making tough clutch shots. Jordan was great at getting easy shots in those situations, but he wasn't as good of a shooter as Kobe or Lebron. His efficiency is inflated by all the easy layups/dunks he got because he was so much quicker than everyone else.

Kobe-MJ-Lebron are the top 3 clutchest players in NBA history, I'm not mad at anyone that picks either one of them.

:biggums:

[sportjames23]

jordan wasn't outplayed by scottie pippen in any/all title runs (shaq finals mvp over kobe 3 straight finals).

how many finals mvps do wade and bosh have over lebron?


lets get back to clutch stats. i am destroying all the peanut butter and jelly gospel you are flinging.


Man, you know it's messed up when mehya defends MJ. :wtf:

This is too weird for me. I'm out.

[chazzy]

You guys are putting so much stock into literally <20 shot attempts with varying circumstances

[ArbitraryWater]

Of course we are... Screw all statistics.

THE EYE TEST TELLS ME KOBE IS CLUTCH!!

:facepalm

Just face the results.

[Doranku]

Of course we are... Screw all statistics.

THE EYE TEST TELLS ME KOBE IS CLUTCH!!

:facepalm

Just face the results.

You wanna talk about statistics?

How about this one: You've somehow sustained over FORTY (yes folks, 40 is not a typo) posts per day for 11 months.

And that isn't even including the multiple alts that you use to agree with yourself. I highly recommend therapy.

[chazzy]

Of course we are... Screw all statistics.

THE EYE TEST TELLS ME KOBE IS CLUTCH!!

:facepalm

Just face the results.
I'm perfectly fine with clutch stats. My issue is people only looking at tiny sample size playoff numbers. Seriously, what do <20 shots tell you about anyone?