Is Doc rivers the most overrated coach of all time

[rlsmooth775]

He is nothing without Tom Tibodeau

[brandonislegend]

yes.

[JohnFreeman]

Yes

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's up there.

[SpanishACB]

Who knows?

None of you tv fans know a thing about coaching.

You watch a game, see a team perform badly, blame it on the coah. You know nothing on how he coaches. You don't know if the players didn't execute properly or if the coach play was bad.

You'll never know. Stop pretending you know how much relevance coaching has in a team's win. You're throwing assumptions out of your ass without knowing the work behind the scenes and what actually happens.

[YaoArizaClutch]

Who knows?

None of you tv fans know a thing about coaching.

You watch a game, see a team perform badly, blame it on the coah. You know nothing on how he coaches. You don't know if the players didn't execute properly or if the coach play was bad.

You'll never know. Stop pretending you know how much relevance coaching has in a team's win. You're throwing assumptions out of your ass without knowing the work behind the scenes and what actually happens.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Paul-Pierce-Smile-and-Shock.gif

[senelcoolidge]

Yeah, I think he's overall overrated. When he has competent assistants things runs smoother. Last year he had Gentry and the offense looked much better. This season he has crappy assistants and the team doesn't look as good. So yeah in that regard he is overrated.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Did Thibodeau somehow win championships without Doc? Not that Thibodeau isn't great but like every other coach Rivers will win more or less depending on the players he's given. The current Clippers will make the playoffs and get to the second or third round but won't win the Championship not because Doc doesn't have Thibodeau but because the Celtics Doc coached got great leadership from it's three main stars (instead of the Clippers where Chris Paul is a great leader and that's probably it), all of whom were go-to guys (no Clipper is on par in this regard with Pierce or as clutch as Ray Allen, though Jamal Crawford is pretty good) and the defensive anchor, KG, doesn't have to be subbed out in the clutch (like happens to DeAndre Jordan at times).

[JohnnySic]

http://h-4.abload.de/img/0070_pq3p.gif

[hawksdogsbraves]

Did Thibodeau somehow win championships without Doc? Not that Thibodeau isn't great but like every other coach Rivers will win more or less depending on the players he's given. The current Clippers will make the playoffs and get to the second or third round but won't win the Championship not because Doc doesn't have Thibodeau but because the Celtics Doc coached got great leadership from it's three main stars (instead of the Clippers where Chris Paul is a great leader and that's probably it), all of whom were go-to guys (no Clipper is on par in this regard with Pierce or as clutch as Ray Allen, though Jamal Crawford is pretty good) and the defensive anchor, KG, doesn't have to be subbed out in the clutch (like happens to DeAndre Jordan at times).

I hear what you're saying, but people act like Doc is a top 5 coach and a future HoFer, and you'd think that this Clippers roster with two superstars, a true rim protecting big man, and a deep bench could make it out of the second round with such a great coach at the helm.

[tamaraw08]

Yeah, I think he's overall overrated. When he has competent assistants things runs smoother. Last year he had Gentry and the offense looked much better. This season he has crappy assistants and the team doesn't look as good. So yeah in that regard he is overrated.

Lawrence Frank was pretty good at New Jersey esp when he had good players.
Mike Woodson was also good at Atlanta and his first year at NY.

[tamaraw08]

Did Thibodeau somehow win championships without Doc? Not that Thibodeau isn't great but like every other coach Rivers will win more or less depending on the players he's given. The current Clippers will make the playoffs and get to the second or third round but won't win the Championship not because Doc doesn't have Thibodeau but because the Celtics Doc coached got great leadership from it's three main stars (instead of the Clippers where Chris Paul is a great leader and that's probably it), all of whom were go-to guys (no Clipper is on par in this regard with Pierce or as clutch as Ray Allen, though Jamal Crawford is pretty good) and the defensive anchor, KG, doesn't have to be subbed out in the clutch (like happens to DeAndre Jordan at times).
Rivers won ONE ring with Thibs, NEVER won again inspite of retaining KG,Rondo,Allen,Pierce for atleast 3 more years. Is he overrated? Maybe but I still consider him as tad better than a good coach.
For me tho, Karl, JVG, Sloan are far better coaches.
Infact I strongly believe that George Karl is the most underrated coaches of all time, last time he had a losing season was 1988.:pimp:

[Mr. Jabbar]

ppl always doubt white players and black coaches, the way it is

[Akrazotile]

I hear what you're saying, but people act like Doc is a top 5 coach and a future HoFer, and you'd think that this Clippers roster with two superstars, a true rim protecting big man, and a deep bench could make it out of the second round with such a great coach at the helm.


This is exactly the flawed analysis of their roster that is creating inflated expectations for this team.

First of all they're still very young for a starting frontcourt. Veteran teams win titles, everyone should know that by now.


Secondly, Blake + DJ is simply not as great of a frontcourt as people assume it is based on name value and the highlights they see on sportscenter. And they are not a good fit together, despite how it would "seem" as much on the surface. Blake is simply not consistent enough on the block to be paired with an offensive traffic cone. Yes, Blake can have some explosive games and pull off some crazy looking postmoves, but not in a consistently reliable fashion. He's simply too limited by his lack of length. This is also problematic on the defensive end. And on that end, Jordan is good, but he's not a world beater.

At the end of the day, each is very below average on a particular end of the floor, and the other guy simply isn't good enough at that aspect to make up for it to any kind of degree that is going to make them a contender. Ultimately they're still basically a jump shooting team and while you can live by that for a little while, eventually you're going to die by it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I wouldn't say he is "nothing" without Thibs (a better coach), but definitely overrated. I never understood the appeal for him, as he was pretty mediocre before the big 3 in Boston.

[HOoopCityJones]

This is exactly the flawed analysis of their roster that is creating inflated expectations for this team.

First of all they're still very young for a starting frontcourt. Veteran teams win titles, everyone should know that by now.


Secondly, Blake + DJ is simply not as great of a frontcourt as people assume it is based on name value and the highlights they see on sportscenter. And they are not a good fit together, despite how it would "seem" as much on the surface. Blake is simply not consistent enough on the block to be paired with an offensive traffic cone. Yes, Blake can have some explosive games and pull off some crazy looking postmoves, but not in a consistently reliable fashion. He's simply too limited by his lack of length. This is also problematic on the defensive end. And on that end, Jordan is good, but he's not a world beater.

At the end of the day, each is very below average on a particular end of the floor, and the other guy simply isn't good enough at that aspect to make up for it.


I'm sorry but this is bullshit. Blake and DJ are far from Rookies or Second years. Hell, throw Chris Paul in there too.

This is far from a young Team. Barnes, Reddick , Crawford etc. These guys are the epitome of Veteran players who have years worth of experience between them. They even added Spencer Hawes and he's solid to be coming off your bench.

Doc, nor CP3 has an excuse why this Team shouldn't be in the WCF.

[SwishSquared]

I'm sorry but this is bullshit. Blake and DJ are far from Rookies or Second years. Hell, throw Chris Paul in there too.

This is far from a young Team. Barnes, Reddick , Crawford etc. These guys are the epitome of Veteran players who have years worth of experience between them. They even added Spencer Hawes and he's solid to be coming off your bench.

Doc, nor CP3 has an excuse why this Team shouldn't be in the WCF.
I think going forward Blake & DJ can be properly held accountable for playoff wins/losses. Last year was the first time either of them lived up to their potential for a playoff run, though DJ was much worse vs. OKC since they have legit big men. Not making excuses, but both were not nearly as good in their previous playoff runs as they were last year. I think they finally had enough experience that stuff "clicked." They should have made the WCF though.

I'm not going to call Doc the most overrated coach of all time. He did benefit from having guys like Thibs and Gentry on his bench, though. Couldn't they have matched Gentry's offer from GSW?

This season they will struggle because they are shaky at SF and back up PG imo. I don't think Farmar or Cunningham will provide what Collison did last year for an entire season. Hawes is more inconsistent starting out than I thought, too.

You can blame Doc for the personnel issues since he signed all these guys. No offense to Wilcox, but he is not what this team needed going forward. Their SF issues could have been resolved with KJ McDaniels (whose defense looks legit right now for Philly). Doc is a really overrated GM, and maybe he gets more credit than he should as a coach, but his leadership shouldn't be overlooked.

[HOoopCityJones]

I think going forward Blake & DJ can be properly held accountable for playoff wins/losses. Last year was the first time either of them lived up to their potential for a playoff run, though DJ was much worse vs. OKC since they have legit big men. Not making excuses, but both were not nearly as good in their previous playoff runs as they were last year. I think they finally had enough experience that stuff "clicked." They should have made the WCF though.

I'm not going to call Doc the most overrated coach of all time. He did benefit from having guys like Thibs and Gentry on his bench, though. Couldn't they have matched Gentry's offer from GSW?

This season they will struggle because they are shaky at SF and back up PG imo. I don't think Farmar or Cunningham will provide what Collison did last year for an entire season. Hawes is more inconsistent starting out than I thought, too.

You can blame Doc for the personnel issues since he signed all these guys. No offense to Wilcox, but he is not what this team needed going forward. Their SF issues could have been resolved with KJ McDaniels (whose defense looks legit right now for Philly). Doc is a really overrated GM, and maybe he gets more credit than he should as a coach, but his leadership shouldn't be overlooked.


I personally think Doc is overrated , but he isn't the problem. This is one of the most talented rosters in the League , probably surpassed only by OKC, Spurs and Cleveland.

These players underachieving is to blame, namely CP3 and it's been happening for years, I used to be the first to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially since I wanted him on my Lakers, but come on now, no more whining about Teammates, you have all you need except for an SF , like you said.

But that isn't make or break imo.

[Charlie Sheen]

I personally think Doc is overrated , but he isn't the problem. This is one of the most talented rosters in the League , probably surpassed only by OKC, Spurs and Cleveland.

These players underachieving is to blame, namely CP3 and it's been happening for years, I used to be the first to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially since I wanted him on my Lakers, but come on now, no more whining about Teammates, you have all you need except for an SF , like you said.

But that isn't make or break imo.

Why do you think Doc is overrated?

[HOoopCityJones]

Why do you think Doc is overrated?


Because, he's not about X's and O's.

He needs Top tier Talent or he'll get exposed as a mere motivator, the only difference between he and Mark Jackson's style of coaching is one isn't a religious zealot. The other has actually been to two Finals, but again is that predicated on his skills, his assistant's system or the talent on the floor?

I like Doc, probably would even take him as our coach over Byron because he's proven that he can handle multiple Superstar personalities. (Until he plays favorites like with Rando)

But yea, if he was such a great Coach, this Team would have been in the WCF last year. But I can't place sole blame on him for this year. I'm afraid this Team peaked in 2014.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I hear what you're saying, but people act like Doc is a top 5 coach and a future HoFer, and you'd think that this Clippers roster with two superstars, a true rim protecting big man, and a deep bench could make it out of the second round with such a great coach at the helm.
Is therer a good case to be made for 5 coaches in the game over him? And he has a good shot at the Hall. There are 95 coaches in the Hall. Did they all have better careers than Rivers? Rivers already has 1 Championship and 2 Finals. Over the years as the Clipper roster is altered he could definitely get a team that adds to the number of Finals and Championships. As for past "failure," he's only been there for one season, a season that ended with a pretty huge distraction. Losing in the second round to the league MVP is no great shame.

[Bigsmoke]

naw he a top 3 coach in the NBA right now.

we need more coaches from Maywood actually

[Real Men Wear Green]

Because, he's not about X's and O's.

He needs Top tier Talent or he'll get exposed as a mere motivator, the only difference between he and Mark Jackson's style of coaching is one isn't a religious zealot. The other has actually been to two Finals, but again is that predicated on his skills, his assistant's system or the talent on the floor?

I like Doc, probably would even take him as our coach over Byron because he's proven that he can handle multiple Superstar personalities. (Until he plays favorites like with Rando)

But yea, if he was such a great Coach, this Team would have been in the WCF last year. But I can't place sole blame on him for this year. I'm afraid this Team peaked in 2014.
First of all, Doc does take part in strategy. His focus is offence. The end-game, clutch plays are almost always drawn up by Rivers. He does let assistants design more of the defense but why have assistants if you aren't going to use them? Phil Jackson got his offense from an assistant in Tex Winters and most people say he he's the greatest coach of all time. Second, which coach in the history of basketball didn't depend on talented players to win?

[Bigsmoke]

He is nothing without Tom Tibodeau

the Clippers just had their best record in frachise history last year with CP3 missing a huge portion of that season.

[HOoopCityJones]

First of all, Doc does take part in strategy. His focus is offence. The end-game, clutch plays are almost always drawn up by Rivers. He does let assistants design more of the defense but why have assistants if you aren't going to use them? Phil Jackson got his offense from an assistant in Tex Winters and most people say he he's the greatest coach of all time. Second, which coach in the history of basketball didn't depend on talented players to win?

Hey, I didn't say he was a bad Coach. He's just overrated.

Give me Carlisle, Pop or even Thibs any day. Trust me, If Thibs had this talent I think he'd be in a WCF by now. do people even realize that everyone was saying the Bulls would regress into one of the worst Teams in the league after Rose went down and that they should tank?

He overachieved with what little he had. That's a Coach to me, he's similar to George Karl in that way, they can get the most out of a roster no matter who they have. Either way, to each his own.

We'll see how you feel if they can't make it past the second round again.

[Bigsmoke]

Hey, I didn't say he was a bad Coach. He's just overrated.

Give me Carlisle, Pop or even Thibs any day. Trust me, If Thibs had this talent I think he'd be in a WCF by now. do people even realize that everyone was saying the Bulls would regress into one of the worst Teams in the league after Rose went down and that they should tank?

He overachieved with what little he had. That's a Coach to me, he's similar to George Karl in that way, they can get the most out of a roster no matter who they have. Either way, to each his own.

We'll see how you feel if they can't make it past the second round again.

THibs stuggles at managing minutes.

ISH used to shit on Carlisle and not they sucking his dick :biggums:

[Real Men Wear Green]

He overachieved with what little he had. That's a Coach to me, he's similar to George Karl in that way, they can get the most out of a roster no matter who they have. Either way, to each his own.George Karl's Sonics got upset by an eigth seed as a one seed, one of the rarest upsets in sports. Thibs may be a better coach than Doc and Pop definitely has the resume but I don't see how you can say Rivers underachieved and act like a guy that led Team USA to a sixth place finish is somehow this great coach.
We'll see how you feel if they can't make it past the second round again.I really don't think there's anything Doc could do with the Clippers worse than leading Team USA to sixth.

[hawksdogsbraves]

People never think of Doc pre-Big 3 Celtics, but he was a pretty average coach before then too. He never won a playoff series until he got the big 3, and while some of those Orlando and Boston rosters were pretty terrible, he did have prime T-Mac averaging 32/6/5 for him for a couple years and still couldn't win a series.

[Charlie Sheen]

Hey, I didn't say he was a bad Coach. He's just overrated.

Give me Carlisle, Pop or even Thibs any day. Trust me, If Thibs had this talent I think he'd be in a WCF by now. do people even realize that everyone was saying the Bulls would regress into one of the worst Teams in the league after Rose went down and that they should tank?

He overachieved with what little he had. That's a Coach to me, he's similar to George Karl in that way, they can get the most out of a roster no matter who they have. Either way, to each his own.

We'll see how you feel if they can't make it past the second round again.

The same way I felt last year. The Spurs and Thunder are better teams. A healthy warriors are better too. That's not on Doc's coaching. The roster has holes in it. As good as cp3 and Blake are, they are NOT Westbrook and Durant. That's why they're lagging behind the contenders in the conference.

Take away Rose, and the Bulls are not as talented. True. Implying the Bulls minus Rose overachieved with "little" talent left? Misleading as hell.

[iamgine]

I've realized coaching is about fit too. You put Phil/Pop in a young rebuilding team with rebellious players and they might do a lot worse than Nate Mcmillan.

[Real Men Wear Green]

People never think of Doc pre-Big 3 Celtics, but he was a pretty average coach before then too. He never won a playoff series until he got the big 3, and while some of those Orlando and Boston rosters were pretty terrible, he did have prime T-Mac averaging 32/6/5 for him for a couple years and still couldn't win a series.
Pre-KG he only got upset once, and that was by a Pacers squad whose record was worse than it should have been because of suspensions stemming from the "Malace at the Palace" incident. In Orlando the quality of his team was maimed by Grant Hill's contract and injury.

[Xiao Yao You]

He's certainly overrated. I'd go with Sloan though.

[I<3NBA]

Spoelstra is better than him, that's for sure.

[HOoopCityJones]

The same way I felt last year. The Spurs and Thunder are better teams. A healthy warriors are better too. That's not on Doc's coaching. The roster has holes in it. As good as cp3 and Blake are, they are NOT Westbrook and Durant. That's why they're lagging behind the contenders in the conference.

Take away Rose, and the Bulls are not as talented. True. Implying the Bulls minus Rose overachieved with "little" talent left? Misleading as hell.


Wait, how exactly? :biggums:

All they had was Noah and I think Robinson , but he's not really a game changer. Unless you're telling me Kurt Heinrch is a difference maker? If Thibs didn't maximize guys like Butler and Gibson's potential , they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

Hindsight is 20/20, stop trying to reshape their roster into something it wasn't.

[SwishSquared]

I personally think Doc is overrated , but he isn't the problem. This is one of the most talented rosters in the League , probably surpassed only by OKC, Spurs and Cleveland.

These players underachieving is to blame, namely CP3 and it's been happening for years, I used to be the first to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially since I wanted him on my Lakers, but come on now, no more whining about Teammates, you have all you need except for an SF , like you said.

But that isn't make or break imo.
CP3 choked in Game 5 last season, costing the Clippers a WCF trip (and can take heat for underachieving). Like I said, DJ got outplayed by Adams/Perkins in that series. They, mostly Adams, had more big-impact plays.

This season CP3's either taking it easy or truly slowing down. I don't fault CP3 for being hurt vs. Spurs in the semis (he's injury-prone so I don't "blame" him when he gets hurt. I don't think that makes him overrated, but it is a big cause for concern) and he gets blame for getting backdoor swept vs. Memphis in the first round (though Blake/DJ underwhelmed & VDN got out-coached.)

He isn't whining about teammates, NBA fans are talking about teammates. Doc has said they don't have a real wing defender and that's why a 5'11" PG sometimes takes the toughest perimeter defensive assignment. That's not sustainable imo and could definitely keep them out of the WCF. How are they going to guard Steph/Klay with a 3 guard line-up? How are they gonna guard the Spurs closing line-up? Doc really botched the SF position and refuses to give Bullock, or Wilcox, any run to develop them.

Doc's not known for his tactical decisions- he's known for leading a group. His defensive philosophy is straight from Thibs. He's good at ATO plays imo though. He's not winning a coaching matchup vs. Pop or Carlisle.

[Akrazotile]

I'm sorry but this is bullshit. Blake and DJ are far from Rookies or Second years. Hell, throw Chris Paul in there too.

This is far from a young Team. Barnes, Reddick , Crawford etc. These guys are the epitome of Veteran players who have years worth of experience between them. They even added Spencer Hawes and he's solid to be coming off your bench.

Doc, nor CP3 has an excuse why this Team shouldn't be in the WCF.


How old were KG, Dirk, Bosh, Pau, etc when they won titles? Every one was around 30. Shaq was 28.

Blake and DJ are, what, 25? Duncan is a bit of an exception but he was paired with Robinson for his first titles.

Not to mention neither of those guys are as GOOD as prime Shaq, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Pau and even Bosh were.

But it doesn't matter, because I'm not gonna change your mind. "Blake is like teh superduperstar, he dunked on a car mannn!!!!" Whoever the media tells you is a star, you've got as a star. And you equate coaches and individual players to team record and rings and all that dumb fan crap from the school of tony kornheiser sports analysis. You don't understand anything about basketball, and so there's really no point in going any further. And that's all I have to say about that.

[HOoopCityJones]

CP3 choked in Game 5 last season, costing the Clippers a WCF trip (and can take heat for underachieving). Like I said, DJ got outplayed by Adams/Perkins in that series. They, mostly Adams, had more big-impact plays.

This season CP3's either taking it easy or truly slowing down. I don't fault CP3 for being hurt vs. Spurs in the semis (he's injury-prone so I don't "blame" him when he gets hurt. I don't think that makes him overrated, but it is a big cause for concern) and he gets blame for getting backdoor swept vs. Memphis in the first round (though Blake/DJ underwhelmed & VDN got out-coached.)

He isn't whining about teammates, NBA fans are talking about teammates. Doc has said they don't have a real wing defender and that's why a 5'11" PG sometimes takes the toughest perimeter defensive assignment. That's not sustainable imo and could definitely keep them out of the WCF. How are they going to guard Steph/Klay with a 3 guard line-up? How are they gonna guard the Spurs closing line-up? Doc really botched the SF position and refuses to give Bullock, or Wilcox, any run to develop them.

Doc's not known for his tactical decisions- he's known for leading a group. His defensive philosophy is straight from Thibs. He's good at ATO plays imo though. He's not winning a coaching matchup vs. Pop or Carlisle.

The funny part is Barnes is supposed to be a decent defender , but even when he was with us he was kind of mediocre. Idk what to say about The Clippers or CP3. All i know is give Kobe the same squad and he woulda led this team to a Finals already.


If The Clippers do end up fading out of contention in the next two years that'll be the clearest form of karma for the Lakers being robbed of Cp3 Ive ever witnessed.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wait, how exactly? :biggums:

All they had was Noah and I think Robinson , but he's not really a game changer. Unless you're telling me Kurt Heinrch is a difference maker? If Thibs didn't maximize guys like Butler and Gibson's potential , they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

Hindsight is 20/20, stop trying to reshape their roster into something it wasn't.

Luol Deng was a pretty good player. You may have heard of him. Saying Thibs maximized guys like Butler and Taj is giving him too much credit. Those two would have been good players on any team in the league. Thibs isn't a bad coach by any means, not saying that. Saying he's had a hell of a lot more to work with in Chi than what you're saying.

[HOoopCityJones]

How old were KG, Dirk, Bosh, Pau, etc when they won titles? Every one was around 30. Shaq was 28.

Blake and DJ are, what, 25? Duncan is a bit of an exception but he was paired with Robinson for his first titles.

Not to mention neither of those guys are as GOOD as prime Shaq, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Pau and even Bosh were.

But it doesn't matter, because you think like an idiot and I'm not gonna change your mind. "Blake is like teh superduperstar, he dunked on a car mannn!!!!" Whoever the media tells you is a star, you've got as a star. And you equate coaches and individual players to team record and rings and all that dumb fan crap from the school of tony kornheiser sports analysis. You don't understand anything about basketball, and so there's really no point in going any further. And that's all I have to say about that.


Who gives a shit about Jumping cars? :biggums:

You tried to make it seem like these guys were still Rooks or Sophs.


Point blank period this Team is talented, and full of Vets they're not even as young as the 2012 Thunder who steamrolled the three anointed Teams out West the last 10 years.

Oh, and they're not only talented, they are considered one of the more Top heavy Teams of the league yet they play like they have The Grizzles roster or something. Who are a very good Team in their own right , but they aren't bursting at the seams with talent like the Clippers.

I don't care if you think DJ and Griffin shouldn't be held accountable til they're in their late thirties , ask Lebron and Kobe, or even Dwight how hard it is to try an play your best Basketball while not being as physically gifted as your first four years.


So you go ahead and keep waiting til they're 28 and such, shit mofo, the main pieces will probably go their separate ways by then, CP3 ain't a spring chicken.

[SwishSquared]

The funny part is Barnes is supposed to be a decent defender , but even when he was with us he was kind of mediocre. Idk what to say about The Clippers or CP3. All i know is give Kobe the same squad and he woulda led this team to a Finals already.


If The Clippers do end up fading out of contention in the next two years that'll be the clearest form of karma for the Lakers being robbed of Cp3 Ive ever witnessed.
Last year this team underachieved and they should have made the WCF (no way they were beating SAS though imo).CP3 had an awful 47 seconds to sink them and between that choke and how mentally distracted they were, nobody else could pull them past OKC.

Barnes was great for them 2 years ago off the bench. He's not a terrible player but this year his shooting is beyond awful, and the toll it's taking on his confidence is affecting his defense (or age, dude's getting up there). He shouldn't be the designated wing stopper on a team anymore. He's an an energy guy off the bench.

Maybe the Kobe of like 3 years ago could have pushed this team to a very competitive series vs. the Spurs last year. I don't know how the dynamic between Blake Griffin/Kobe would work out. BG's reserved and that's why it took CP3 being out a long time for him to step up to control the offense. Idk if Kobe would let BG become the leader as he slows down the same way CP3 has been doing.

Doc needs to bring in a better bench next summer. He's done a terrible job as a GM (Bledsoe + Butler expiring+ 2017 first round pick + 2nd rounder for 1 year rental of Dudley + Reddick is a terrible trade so far) along with offering the full MLE to get Hawes, which hard-capped them this year. He needs to step it up or he will botch the team's contending window by not getting the right role players.

[HOoopCityJones]

Luol Deng was a pretty good player. You may have heard of him. Saying Thibs maximized guys like Butler and Taj is giving him too much credit. Those two would have been good players on any team in the league. Thibs isn't a bad coach by any means, not saying that. Saying he's had a hell of a lot more to work with in Chi than what you're saying.

Deng was hurt pretty much during their entire run without Rose though. Why do you think Chicago saw him as expendable? Besides , Deng isn't some stud that can get you 20 and ten or even nine, he's a glue guy at best.

[Thorpesaurous]

As a Celtic fan, this is a bit of tough topic to tackle, but a lot of it depends on just how well regarded you think he is, and that can fluctuate pretty wildly.

He does have a definitive strong suit. He's really good with personalities, and driving motivation. He deals with star players better than almost anyone in the league, and that has a definitive value. He's also shown a willingness to give responsibility to assistants and let them build stuff for him, which while exposes a weakness, also speaks to a certain strength.

He did win a CoY in Orlando if I recall correctly. And that seemed to be a result of getting a group of guys to really go at it and overachieve for a year, but it ran it's course for sure. When he started in Boston, as a guy who was watching everything at the time, he was a mess. He had absolutely no clue how to defend the PnR, and even when he stumbled onto something, he'd make seemingly wholesale changes to the approach of the defense it felt like every week. And the offense was a stale mess of ball stopping. I will admit that he's always been good in timeout spots though.


So he's a weird case. If you're going by the people who think he's top three guy, then he's certainly overrated. If you're going by the guys in Boston who are pissed he wasn't let go so they could just hire Thibs, or the guys who never forgave him for those early seasons, then they're probably underselling him. If you're going by how much he gets paid, he's probably overrated, but then again, even better coaches probably couldn't have handled their postseason situation any better than Doc did last year.

As a Celtic fan in our current position ... I'm much happier with Brad Stevens.

You know who else managed personalities and did the media work better than anyone and relied heavily on his assitants was Phil Jackson. Some people say he's overrated too.

[Akrazotile]

Is therer a good case to be made for 5 coaches in the game over him? And he has a good shot at the Hall. There are 95 coaches in the Hall. Did they all have better careers than Rivers? Rivers already has 1 Championship and 2 Finals. Over the years as the Clipper roster is altered he could definitely get a team that adds to the number of Finals and Championships. As for past "failure," he's only been there for one season, a season that ended with a pretty huge distraction. Losing in the second round to the league MVP is no great shame.


This is why it's stupid to try and order coaches into an arbitrarily numbered ranking. To determine the actual difference between, for instance, Spoelstra and Rivers you'd have to actually spend an abundance of time with each coach and his team, which obviously is impossible for anyone here. It's a stupid argument to try and rank coaches one by one, and only idiots engage in it, basing it on random criteria like "rings, wcf finals appearance, how many superstars?" etc.

You can approximately tier coaches when there are some clearly discintinct groupings that some are on and some aren't. Popovich and Carlisle are clearly at the top end of the spectrum, and that's about as precise as you can sensible state it. After that there is a group of guys that are largely indistinguishable, and their varied successes is most likely due to circumstance rather than any drasticly different coaching philosophy. Even then, some of those guys like Thibs and perhaps Hornacek very well could be every bit the coach Pop or Carlisle are, and just simply haven't been around long enough yet to prove it.


But these things like "Well, I have Doc #4, because you know he won 1 ring, but he had like 2.5 superstars, and spoelstra tho is like #5 bc he has teh 2 rings, and he had like teh 2.5 superstars too"


I used to be amused at how stupid the average person is but as I get older it actually becomes really annoying and frustrating. So many idiots out there.

[Akrazotile]

Who gives a shit about Jumping cars? :biggums:

You tried to make it seem like these guys were still Rooks or Sophs.


Point blank period this Team is talented, and full of Vets they're not even as young as the 2012 Thunder who steamrolled the three anointed Teams out West the last 10 years.

Oh, and they're not only talented, they are considered one of the more Top heavy Teams of the league yet they play like they have The Grizzles roster or something. Who are a very good Team in their own right , but they aren't bursting at the seams with talent like the Clippers.

I don't care if you think DJ and Griffin shouldn't be held accountable til they're in their late thirties , ask Lebron and Kobe, or even Dwight how hard it is to try an play your best Basketball while not being as physically gifted as your first four years.


So you go ahead and keep waiting til they're 28 and such, shit mofo, the main pieces will probably go their separate ways by then, CP3 ain't a spring chicken.


wtf do you mean not accountable? I specifically stated they're not as good as most championship bigs of the past. That isn't their fault. They're also still a few years younger than most championship bigs of the past. What else do you want? How do you want to hold them accountable? Bring them in front of a tribunal and officially charge them with failing in their duties to secure a championship for the Clippers? Do you want them dishonorably discharged from the NBA?

It's not their fault you've decided to build them up as superstars and act like anything short of a championship is a spectacular choke that is entirely their fault because they are head and shoulders more talented than all other frontcourts. That's simply not the case. They're an average frontcourt by NBA standards and that's all there is too it. What else do you want???

[Akrazotile]

As a Celtic fan, this is a bit of tough topic to tackle, but a lot of it depends on just how well regarded you think he is, and that can fluctuate pretty wildly.

He does have a definitive strong suit. He's really good with personalities, and driving motivation. He deals with star players better than almost anyone in the league, and that has a definitive value. He's also shown a willingness to give responsibility to assistants and let them build stuff for him, which while exposes a weakness, also speaks to a certain strength.

He did win a CoY in Orlando if I recall correctly. And that seemed to be a result of getting a group of guys to really go at it and overachieve for a year, but it ran it's course for sure. When he started in Boston, as a guy who was watching everything at the time, he was a mess. He had absolutely no clue how to defend the PnR, and even when he stumbled onto something, he'd make seemingly wholesale changes to the approach of the defense it felt like every week. And the offense was a stale mess of ball stopping. I will admit that he's always been good in timeout spots though.


So he's a weird case. If you're going by the people who think he's top three guy, then he's certainly overrated. If you're going by the guys in Boston who are pissed he wasn't let go so they could just hire Thibs, or the guys who never forgave him for those early seasons, then they're probably underselling him. If you're going by how much he gets paid, he's probably overrated, but then again, even better coaches probably couldn't have handled their postseason situation any better than Doc did last year.

As a Celtic fan in our current position ... I'm much happier with Brad Stevens.

You know who else managed personalities and did the media work better than anyone and relied heavily on his assitants was Phil Jackson. Some people say he's overrated too.


^ This is the only way to legitimate critique coaches. You have to state their actual strengths and weaknesses, instead of just saying "hes been in the league 5 years and the team hasnt reached the finals!!!!!" And even then it's impossible to actually order them like a laundry list. But at least this is better than "well he has 2 rings and dis guy has teh 4 rings so that guy is better than this a guy."

[Charlie Sheen]

Deng was hurt pretty much during their entire run without Rose though. Why do you think Chicago saw him as expendable? Besides , Deng isn't some stud that can get you 20 and ten or even nine, he's a glue guy at best.

There isn't a fine line between superstar and glue guy. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

btw Deng was good for 2900 minutes in 12-13. Bulls went for 45 wins and a 5th seed. 2nd round loss to the eventual NBA champs that year. It doesn't add up Here's why: You've said there was nothing on that team outside of Noah. You also said Deng was hurt most of that year. That would make what he did on the court more impressive, wouldn't it? Thibs isn't the one out there playing all those minutes. And, you want to call him a glue guy? That's not even being unkind...it's dishonest.

[Doctor Rivers]

No

[masonanddixon]

He's basically an AA hire.

He has no concept for Xs and Os and has been exposed ever since moving West.

You can get away with it if you have talent in the East, but not against the big boys.

[thefatmiral]

yup. some people believe he is the great grand master wizard. I think the clips generally perform below their potential.