ESPN: Lebron's "right way" era vs. Kobe's "hero ball"

[Dr.J4ever]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40363/misses-add-up-to-big-part-of-kobes-legacy

Excerpt:

But beyond that, the game has also changed, and for that, consider the ending of Game 1 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals between the Cleveland Cavaliers and Detroit Pistons.

Cavaliers star LeBron James drove into the lane and passed to a wide open Donyell Marshall in the right corner for a potential, game-tying 3-pointer with 5.9 seconds left rather than taking the shot himself.

Marshall missed, the Pistons won and James was bombarded with criticism after, which essentially stated that Bryant and Jordan -- two old-school, hero-ball gunners -- never would've passed in that situation, that if he were a real winner, a true champion like them, then he would have had the chutzpah to take that shot with the game on the line.

"I go for the winning play," the then-22-year-old James said after. "If two guys come at you, and your teammate is open, then give it up. Simple as that."

Although that ideology ran counter to culturally accepted notions instilled by numerous game-winners from Jordan and Bryant, it represented an idea that would take hold in coming years, especially during the analytics movement, when the game was dissected like never before.

The winning play is the smartest play, even if it isn't the gutsiest play. The quality of shots is as important -- if not more important -- than the quantity. Efficiency is the emphasis, the measuring stick for possessions, players and teams.

The end result is basketball is being played smarter, more efficiently and more selflessly than at any point in the game's history. For proof, rewatch how the San Antonio Spurs surgically dismantled James and the Miami Heat in the 2014 Finals with precision passing that led to numerous wide-open shots, such as Marshall's.

There are still stars who fill up the stat sheet, but hero-ball gunners who are counted on to take a ton of shots, especially the final shot, no matter whether double- or triple-teamed, are few and fewer. In fact, Scott recently called Kobe Bean Bryant "the last of a dying breed."

[STATUTORY]

didn't read typical ESPN anti kobe pro lebron propaganda

you gotta take them in order to make them

nothin more needs to be said

[STATUTORY]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40363/misses-add-up-to-big-part-of-kobes-legacy
Although that ideology ran counter to culturally accepted notions instilled by numerous game-winners from Jordan and Bryant, it represented an idea that would take hold in coming years, especially during the analytics movement, when the game was dissected like never before.

that's the age we live in now, exemplified by Obama's statement "you didn't build that"

it ain't about doing what you can and being the best, it's about stacking the right team and getting the right network so you don't have to be the best or do the work

In this day and age, concepts like heroism and perseverence become quaint throwaway and punchlines in shitty ESPN articles

So yea Kobe might have the most misses, but at least he owns that. as for Lebron's 2 rings? he didn't build that

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

i smell a zero fg attempts game coming from kobe really soon. the season is lost, let the man keep chucking. i'd rather him be in street cloth for the season, but we all know that is not in kobe's dna.

[AirFederer]

Kobe got 14 reasons why he disagrees

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Kobe got 14 reasons why he disagrees
he also has 25,000,000 reasons why he doesn't give a rat's asss.

[Cold soul]

I take everything said from ESPN outlet with a huge grain of salt when it comes to Kobe it's quite obvious the network hates the guy guts and down plays his career at any opportunity.

[coin24]

I take everything said from ESPN outlet with a huge grain of salt when it comes to Kobe it's quite obvious the network hates the guy guts and down plays his career at any opportunity.


This:oldlol: bunch of idiots

[iamgine]

Even MJ gave it up to Steve Kerr.

[I]You know what's the number one killer of a team that

[DonDadda59]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40363/misses-add-up-to-big-part-of-kobes-legacy

Excerpt:

But beyond that, the game has also changed, and for that, consider the ending of Game 1 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals between the Cleveland Cavaliers and Detroit Pistons.

Cavaliers star LeBron James drove into the lane and passed to a wide open Donyell Marshall in the right corner for a potential, game-tying 3-pointer with 5.9 seconds left rather than taking the shot himself.

Marshall missed, the Pistons won and James was bombarded with criticism after, which essentially stated that Bryant and Jordan -- two old-school, hero-ball gunners -- never would've passed in that situation, that if he were a real winner, a true champion like them, then he would have had the chutzpah to take that shot with the game on the line.

"I go for the winning play," the then-22-year-old James said after. "If two guys come at you, and your teammate is open, then give it up. Simple as that."

Although that ideology ran counter to culturally accepted notions instilled by numerous game-winners from Jordan and Bryant, it represented an idea that would take hold in coming years, especially during the analytics movement, when the game was dissected like never before.

The winning play is the smartest play, even if it isn't the gutsiest play. The quality of shots is as important -- if not more important -- than the quantity. Efficiency is the emphasis, the measuring stick for possessions, players and teams.

The end result is basketball is being played smarter, more efficiently and more selflessly than at any point in the game's history. For proof, rewatch how the San Antonio Spurs surgically dismantled James and the Miami Heat in the 2014 Finals with precision passing that led to numerous wide-open shots, such as Marshall's.

There are still stars who fill up the stat sheet, but hero-ball gunners who are counted on to take a ton of shots, especially the final shot, no matter whether double- or triple-teamed, are few and fewer. In fact, Scott recently called Kobe Bean Bryant "the last of a dying breed."

Who wrote this tripe? :oldlol:

As to the bold:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cS5uDMErOE

That was a pivotal moment in a Finals series. But Jordan would never pass in that situation like Bron did to Donyell Marshall en route to being swept in the finals :rolleyes:

[Dr.J4ever]

I believe the game is changing before our eyes.

So the premise of the last couple of paragraphs in the article is very interesting to me. Doing the "right play", as opposed to "hero ball", which the Spurs used to win the NBA title.

First of all, do you guys agree the "right way" is better than "hero ball"? If so, was Lebron one of the first of the superstars to use the "right way" extensively in recent years?

Do you agree with Scott that Kobe is the "last of a dying breed"? Is this good for the game? Is the game today being played at a much higher level of efficiency due to analytics, as the article suggests?

During the Spurs run at the title last year, I created a post," Are the Spurs about to end "hero ball"? I like this article as proof that the Spurs indeed opened some eyes, but the article also suggests that Lebron is one of a new breed in the last few years who has led a "right way" approach to basketball.

[buddha]

the end result of the "right way" is 2/5

hero ball aka MJ and Kobe ball is 11/13

[RRR3]

LeBron (at times) plays "hero ball" too

[Dr.J4ever]

LeBron (at times) plays "hero ball" too

Good point. Yes, he does. It seems Jordan/ AI/ Kobe is one school of "hero ball". It's 90's -early 2000s type of "hero ball" .

Lebron's "hero ball" is of a more moderate school of this type of hoops.

The Spurs have taken the "right way" to a new level completely.

[DonDadda59]

I believe the game is changing before our eyes.

So the premise of the last couple of paragraphs in the article is very interesting to me. Doing the "right play", as opposed to "hero ball", which the Spurs used to win the NBA title.

First of all, do you guys agree the "right way" is better than "hero ball"? If so, was Lebron one of the first of the superstars to use the "right way" extensively in recent years?

Do you agree with Scott that Kobe is the "last of a dying breed"? Is this good for the game? Is the game today being played at a much higher level of efficiency due to analytics, as the article suggests?

During the Spurs run at the title last year, I created a post," Are the Spurs about to end "hero ball"? I like this article as proof that the Spurs indeed opened some eyes, but the article also suggests that Lebron is one of a new breed in the last few years who has led a "right way" approach to basketball.

:oldlol:

The Bulls playing 'hero ball' averaged more assists per game than the Spurs last year in 4 out of their 6 Championship years while playing at slower paces. If anything, a team like the Spurs isn't doing anything new or revolutionary... they're playing more like a team from the mid 80s (think a homeless man's version of the Showtime Lakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM) or Larry's Celtics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFrRnWEt3Z4)).

These nigguhs acting like passing the ball is some new, never before heard of concept :roll:

[Dr.J4ever]

:oldlol:

The Bulls playing 'hero ball' averaged more assists per game than the Spurs last year in 4 out of their 6 Championship years while playing at slower paces. If anything, a team like the Spurs isn't doing anything new or revolutionary... they're playing more like a team from the mid 80s (think a homeless man's version of the Showtime Lakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM) or Larry's Celtics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFrRnWEt3Z4)).

These nigguhs acting like passing the ball is some new, never before heard of concept :roll:

A1 was always a top assist guy in the NBA. Would you consider him a PG that distributes the basketball very well?

It's not in the assist stats. It's the pass that leads to assist passes that's important which is more indicative of team play.

[DonDadda59]

A1 was always a top assist guy in the NBA. Would you consider him a PG that distributes the basketball very well?

It's not in the assist stats. It's the pass that leads to assist passes that's important which is more indicative of team play.

:rolleyes:

So now it's about Hockey assists... regular assists don't count? Isn't that convenient because now we can overlook the fact that the league averaged more APG in the mid 90s than teams do now. And speaking of 'hero ball' you have guys like James Harden living at the free throw line because all he does is barge his way into the lane thanks to the lax perimeter rules. Same with Steph Curry AKA midget Reggie Miller. These guys would've never sniffed the top 15 scoring leaders list back then.

[sammichoffate]

The irony is that "hero ball" will probably get more praise for an individual's career, like Kobe and MJ. Meanwhile, the Lebron's "right way" is criticized because of him stacking the deck in his favor in order to inflate his individual stats up. The Spurs are the middle ground compared to both of these methods because they have stars that get individual praise while playing "the right way".

[stalkerforlife]

5 > 2

[Akrazotile]

Kobe got 14 reasons why he disagrees


:roll:

[Artillery]

:oldlol:

The Bulls playing 'hero ball' averaged more assists per game than the Spurs last year in 4 out of their 6 Championship years while playing at slower paces. If anything, a team like the Spurs isn't doing anything new or revolutionary... they're playing more like a team from the mid 80s (think a homeless man's version of the Showtime Lakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM) or Larry's Celtics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFrRnWEt3Z4)).

These nigguhs acting like passing the ball is some new, never before heard of concept :roll:

2014 Spurs are actually more balanced than those 80s teams seeing as they actually play defense. Also the three ball is a much bigger part of the game now than it was back then.

Mid-range iso-ball is useless in the modern NBA. Ball movement and three point shooting are more important(not to mention more enjoyable to watch)

[guy]

A1 was always a top assist guy in the NBA. Would you consider him a PG that distributes the basketball very well?

It's not in the assist stats. It's the pass that leads to assist passes that's important which is more indicative of team play.

Ummm that still usually results in higher assists for a team.

One player with high assist totals doesn't indicate much, but if the team overall has high assist totals that's saying something.

[3ball]

Cavaliers star LeBron James drove into the lane and passed to a wide open Donyell Marshall in the right corner for a potential, game-tying 3-pointer with 5.9 seconds left rather than taking the shot himself.


but lebron was never greater than he was IN THAT SAME SERIES in game 5, where he scored 48 points, including 25 out of his team's last 28 points.

but today's game reduces the need for him use the individual brilliance it took to be great like that; the spacing has made ball movement more effective and successful than used to be, so passing it around for an open shot makes more sense than using superman skill to take over.

thanks NBA for reducing the amount of individual greatness required in players.





Marshall missed, the Pistons won and James was bombarded with criticism after, which essentially stated that Bryant and Jordan -- two old-school, hero-ball gunners -- never would've passed in that situation, that if he were a real winner, a true champion like them, then he would have had the chutzpah to take that shot with the game on the line.


Except Jordan passed it in this same spot TWICE - he passed to Kerr in 1997 Finals, but also made the hockey assist to John Paxson - on the Paxson play, it was Jordan's lack of hesitation to give the ball up that led to Paxson being wide open - if Jordan hesitates at all, the defense recovers.

Jordan's decision-making in crunch time DWARFS that of Lebron - just look at their turnover rates - Jordan turned it over 40% less - and Jordan only turned it over on a game-deciding possession twice in his entire career... otoh, we've seen lebron turn it over a ton in crucial spots, in part due to his aforementioned, less successful, ball-dominant style of play.





"I go for the winning play," the then-22-year-old James said after. "If two guys come at you, and your teammate is open, then give it up. Simple as that."


ESPN's lack of high level understanding of basketball, causes them consider lebron is a "smart" basketball player for thinking pass-first when the game is on the line, but they ignore lebron's suboptimal, less successful ball-dominant style of play, which is suboptimal, less successful, and therefore less smart than Jordan and Kobe's off-ball style.




The winning play is the smartest play, even if it isn't the gutsiest play. The quality of shots is as important -- if not more important -- than the quantity. Efficiency is the emphasis, the measuring stick for possessions, players and teams.


Except Jordan played way smarter than Lebron ever has - again, just look at lebron's higher turnover rate and how his ball-dominant style can reduce his teammates.

it is not "smart" basketball to play in a way that prevents teammates from being able to play tot their strengths - and throughout lebron's career, his ball-dominance from the forward position has done just that... When your SMALL FORWARD dominates the ball like a point guard, it puts everyone else out of position.





The end result is basketball is being played smarter, more efficiently and more selflessly than at any point in the game's history. For proof, rewatch how the San Antonio Spurs surgically dismantled James and the Miami Heat in the 2014 Finals with precision passing that led to numerous wide-open shots, such as Marshall's.


exactly - the SPURS played great, smart basketball by not holding the ball and moving it quickly... Otoh, Lebron just dominated the ball and did the OPPOSITE of these things that the Spurs did.





In fact, Scott recently called Kobe Bean Bryant "the last of a dying breed."


he's the last of "cadillac" SG's, in that they can do everything - guys like Kobe, Jordan, Drexler, Tmac - the game in previous eras required guys to have the highest leve of 1-on-1 ability in their repertiore, because ball movement was not as effective in their day...

so those SG's had all the highest level of sophistication and skill in their game - i.e. post game, off-ball game, mid-range pull-up game, turnaround jumper game - things that today's 3-and-D stiffs don't have, because the ball-movement has made it easier for them, so they don't need these skills anymore.

we've been over this - the NBA has gone from individual brilliance to ball-movement and open shots - the NBA is now just play-finishing.... that is not better than what Lebron had to do in game 5 of 2007 ECF.

[Haymaker]

Kobe has won his way, Bron has won his too, that doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. There's so much more to basketball than that trivial ESPN bullshit.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

*Yawn* More bullshyt to hype up LeBron and today's superstars. TEAM basketball and skills were at their absolute pinnacle during late 80s and early 90s.

[DonDadda59]

2014 Spurs are actually more balanced than those 80s teams seeing as they actually play defense. Also the three ball is a much bigger part of the game now than it was back then.

'86 Celtics had the #3 ranked offense and the #1 ranked defense bruh. Learn your History before making a fool of yourself. :facepalm


Mid-range iso-ball is useless in the modern NBA. Ball movement and three point shooting are more important(not to mention more enjoyable to watch)

Again, I can easily spot the people who never watched basketball pre Decision 1.0 because they talk out of their ass about things they clearly know nothing about. Let me reiterate- the league in the 90s averaged more team APG than teams in the 00s-10s despite playing at similar and some times slower paces. There was more ball movement then. With the exception of Jordan, the game was dominated by ultra skilled and efficient bigs. Today you have shot-jacking, foul drawing wings like Steph Curry, James Harden, and Mr. 37%be himself leading the league in scoring.

If you find that more enjoyable to watch, more power to you :oldlol:

[Genaro]

It's all about the results. If a guy make the shot with 2 guys guarding he will get praised but if he misses he will be criticized. Same with the passing, if someone passes and the other guy make the shot everybody will talk about him as a great leader, made his teammates better ,etc. Now if he misses (like the Lebron and Marshall situation) the guy will be seen as chocker.
This same ESPN bashed Bran in 2007 for this play so don't come at me with hypocrite columns to talk about the right play. The right play is the ball going through the net.

[chazzy]

And speaking of 'hero ball' you have guys like James Harden living at the free throw line because all he does is barge his way into the lane thanks to the lax perimeter rules. Same with Steph Curry AKA midget Reggie Miller. These guys would've never sniffed the top 15 scoring leaders list back then.
Curry doesn't live at the FT line. Imagine him with a shortened 3pt line though :eek:

[Mr Exlax]

If you actually played basketball, you should hate hero ball. You have to have teammates that are ok with not getting to shoot and hang their hats on being garbage men and defensive specialists. If not, they're not gonna consistently give 100% effort.

[DonDadda59]

Ummm that still usually results in higher assists for a team.

One player with high assist totals doesn't indicate much, but if the team overall has high assist totals that's saying something.

Exactly. Even when Iverson had his best assist numbers, the Sixers were always bottom of the league in terms of team APG, usually in the 20-25th spot.

People just watch Jordan highlights and think that was all the offense was then. If you watch BULLS highlights then you'd see how they ran the triangle to perfection with intelligent, crisp ball movement (which again, is why they averaged more APG than the Spurs do while playing at slower paces). There was a guy on youtube who had highlights of the Bulls championship runs, not just MJ highlight reels, that really focused on the team as a whole. I think his page disappeared though. I think Alan Flowers was his name.


*Yawn* More bullshyt to hype up LeBron and today's superstars. TEAM basketball and skills were at their absolute pinnacle during late 80s and early 90s.


Exactly. The Spurs are just a lite version of a mid 80s team with more 3 point shooting. They're not doing anything new or revolutionary, if anything they're 'regressing' and look what they did to the Superfriends last year. :oldlol:

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

If you actually played basketball, you should hate hero ball. You have to have teammates that are ok with not getting to shoot and hang their hats on being garbage men and defensive specialists. If not, they're not gonna consistently give 100% effort.
a lot of these guys will be free agents at the end of the season, their bad for not giving 100 every night.

[Heavincent]

Today you have shot-jacking, foul drawing wings like Steph Curry, James Harden, and Mr. 37%be himself leading the league in scoring.


I'm starting to get the feeling you haven't watched Steph Curry very much.

- He's not a shot jacker. He's actually extremely efficient. Shooting 44% on 3's for his career (6 attempts per game) and 47% overall.

- He's not a foul baiting flopper...at all. He attempts 3 FT's per game for his career (although that number is steadily increasing, which is good). In fact, he usually prefers to use floaters instead of going all the way to the rim.

Steph Curry's game would translate well in any era. You think his GOAT tier shooting ability would just go away if you put him in the 90's? No. I have no idea why you're putting him in the same sentence as Harden. They have completely different games.

[chazzy]

Today you have shot-jacking, foul drawing wings like Steph Curry
:oldlol:

[Chrono90]

It's all about how you look at it. Both are legends and did it their way.

And as of now, Kobe won more.

Lebron's "right way" to me is joining with 2 other franchise players in their primes. He did it twice already.

[DonDadda59]

I'm starting to get the feeling you haven't watched Steph Curry very much.

- He's not a shot jacker. He's actually extremely efficient. Shooting 44% on 3's for his career (6 attempts per game) and 47% overall.

- He's not a foul baiting flopper...at all. He attempts 3 FT's per game for his career (although that number is steadily increasing, which is good). In fact, he usually prefers to use floaters instead of going all the way to the rim.

Steph Curry's game would translate well in any era. You think his GOAT tier shooting ability would just go away if you put him in the 90's? No. I have no idea why you're putting him in the same sentence as Harden. They have completely different games.

I was speaking in general terms, sue me. But doesn't that fit the description of Bean and Harden?

As to the bold- No it wouldn't go away obviously. He'd still be a great shooter... just like his dad, or Reggie Miller, etc. Just wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the scoring list like he is today.

Remember that 37%be who's been leading the league in PPG and Shot attempts coming off a terrible injury and being 36 years old was a poor man's Jamal Crawford when he played from 96-00. The league was not tailored to that style of play in the least.

[chazzy]

Remember that 37%be whose been leading the league in PPG and Shot attempts coming off a terrible injury and being 36 years old was a poor man's Jamal Crawford when he played from 96-00. The league was not tailored to that style of play in the least.
Because he wasn't that good yet. Defenses didn't suddenly become lax in 01

[Doranku]

Crazy how much "insight" DonDadda59 has to offer considering the only basketball he watches is his 90's Bulls Championship VHS collection.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Crazy how much "insight" DonDadda59 has to offer considering the only basketball he watches is his 90's Bulls Championship VHS collection.
:lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Crazy how much "insight" DonDadda59 has to offer considering the only basketball he watches is his 90's Bulls Championship VHS collection.


:roll: :roll:

[DonDadda59]

Because he wasn't that good yet. Defenses didn't suddenly become lax in 01

He was a 2X all star and was the first guard drafted out of High School. He was so skilled at his age that the GOAT talent evaluator traded away a proven commodity in Vlade Divac to acquire him. There was a reason why no one, especially guards, were never drafted straight out of HS before Garnett/Kobe. It's was a man's game and kids had no business on the court because they would (and eventually did) get bodied.

Compare Bean's first 3 seasons out of HS to LeBron's first 3 seasons out of HS. You think it's a coincidence that both guys had their career best scoring years at the same exact time despite being drafted 7 years apart... which also, by coincidence of course, happened to be the same season the league outlawed handchecking and instated the 3 sec rule?

But now you have a guy who couldn't do a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press as the best scorer in the game, sitting on 4 scoring championships and counting. Steph Curry in the 90s = a shorter version of his father with better playmaking. :oldlol:


Crazy how much "insight" DonDadda59 has to offer considering the only basketball he watches is his 90's Bulls Championship VHS collection.

Nigguh please :oldlol:

If you're feeling so gully, step into the arena. Talk basketball with me. We'll see who has more "insight".

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Heavincent]

As to the bold- No it wouldn't go away obviously. He'd still be a great shooter... just like his dad, or Reggie Miller, etc. Just wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the scoring list like he is today.


Why the hell not? Oh yeah, I forgot, Steph Curry's scoring ability obviously doesn't come close to the likes of Latrell Sprewell, LaPhonso Ellis, Kendall Gill, and Mitch Richmond.


Remember that 37%be who's been leading the league in PPG and Shot attempts coming off a terrible injury and being 36 years old was a poor man's Jamal Crawford when he played from 96-00. The league was not tailored to that style of play in the least.

Kobe put up huge scoring numbers between 00-04, which was considered to be one of the tougher defensive eras.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He was a 2X all star and was the first guard drafted out of High School. He was so skilled at his age that the GOAT talent evaluator traded away a proven commodity in Vlade Divac to acquire him. There was a reason why no one, especially guards, were never drafted straight out of HS before Garnett/Kobe. It's was a man's game and kids had no business on the court because they would (and eventually did) get bodied.

Compare Bean's first 3 seasons out of HS to LeBron's first 3 seasons out of HS. You think it's a coincidence that both guys had their career best scoring years at the same exact time despite being drafted 7 years apart... which also, by coincidence of course, happened to be the same season the league outlawed handchecking and instated the 3 sec rule?

But now you have a guy who couldn't do a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press as the best scorer in the game, sitting on 4 scoring championships and counting. Steph Curry in the 90s = a shorter version of his father with better playmaking. :oldlol:



Nigguh please :oldlol:

If you're feeling so gully, step into the arena. Talk basketball with me. We'll see who has more "insight".

Yeah, that's what I thought.

what kind type of bitch shit is this? :roll:

you open a challenge and then end the challenge before you've even made the post

:roll:

[chazzy]

He was a 2X all star and was the first guard drafted out of High School. He was so skilled at his age that the GOAT talent evaluator traded away a proven commodity in Vlade Divac to acquire him. There was a reason why no one, especially guards, were never drafted straight out of HS before Garnett/Kobe. It's was a man's game and kids had no business on the court because they would (and eventually did) get bodied.

Compare Bean's first 3 seasons out of HS to LeBron's first 3 seasons out of HS. You think it's a coincidence that both guys had their career best scoring years at the same exact time despite being drafted 7 years apart... which also, by coincidence of course, happened to be the same season the league outlawed handchecking and instated the 3 sec rule?

But now you have a guy who couldn't do a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press as the best scorer in the game, sitting on 4 scoring championships and counting. Steph Curry in the 90s = a shorter version of his father with better playmaking. :oldlol:

So do you believe we should adjust Kobe's career numbers because he had to suffer in a brutal defensive era in the beginning of his career, compared to the 00 draftees? This changes everything :eek:

[DonDadda59]

Why the hell not? Oh yeah, I forgot, Steph Curry's scoring ability obviously doesn't come close to the likes of Latrell Sprewell, LaPhonso Ellis, Kendall Gill, and Mitch Richmond.

You just named guys who dwarf Curry. And with the exception of Richmond who had a green light on terrible teams, those guys were never challenging for top 5 PPG or scoring titles.

Steph Curry in the 90s = smaller version of Dell Curry with better play making.


Kobe put up huge scoring numbers between 00-04, which was considered to be one of the tougher defensive eras.

Yet he couldn't get off the bench in the 90s. And when he did, he was launching airballs against the Utah defense. Hmmmm.


what kind type of bitch shit is this?

you open a challenge and then end the challenge before you've even made the post


I know he's not gonna say shit. He's been around long enough to know better. But anyone is free to step up to the plate. Please, it would make my Saturday. :cheers:

[DonDadda59]

So do you believe we should adjust Kobe's career numbers because he had to suffer in a brutal defensive era in the beginning of his career, compared to the 00 draftees? This changes everything :eek:

Like I said- tell me when both Kobe and LeBron, drafted 7 years apart (Bean having played several seasons in the 90s), had their highest PPG season.

Then tell me what the rules were during that season pertaining to perimeter players.

But once again, I'm sure all of this was just a coincidence and LeBron coming out of High School in '03 was just infinitely better and more skilled than Bean coming out of High School in '96. The Chosen One indeed. :applause:

[chazzy]

What changed between 99 and 01 defenses to allow Kobe to blossom into a superstar? Or.. maybe he just improved? :oldlol: Don thinking MJ's retirement caused a mass league wide depression that made everyone stop playing defense

[Doranku]

Nigguh please :oldlol:

If you're feeling so gully, step into the arena. Talk basketball with me. We'll see who has more "insight".

Yeah, that's what I thought.

lmao what arena? I don't even understand what you're trying to argue.

First you call Kobe a poor man's Jamal Crawford from '99-00, then the very next post you flip the script and describe him as a 2x All-Star who was so skilled out of HS that the Lakers traded a proven big man for him.

Are you trying to say that '96-00 was a significantly tougher defensive era than '01-04?

Your whole argument is just awful honestly. As chazzy said, he couldn't get off the bench in the 90's because he wasn't good enough yet. The defense didn't magically change in '99-00 when Kobe was a fringe star or in '00-01 when he became a superstar.

I guess that narrative doesn't fit your revisionist history about the "GOAT 90's" though. :lol

[DonDadda59]

What changed between 99 and 01 defenses to allow Kobe to blossom into a superstar? Or.. maybe he just improved? :oldlol: Don thinking MJ's retirement caused a mass league wide depression that made everyone stop playing defense

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again... when were Kobe and LeBron's best scoring seasons. They were drafted 7 years apart with Kobe having played 3+ seasons in the 90s out of High School and Bron having played the vast majority of his career under different rules out of High School. This has nothing to do with Jordan. Talking about 2 guys who are still active in the league, still leading the top 5 PPG leaders.

Any time you're ready.

[Heavincent]

You just named guys who dwarf Curry. And with the exception of Richmond who had a green light on terrible teams, those guys were never challenging for top 5 PPG or scoring titles.

Steph Curry in the 90s = smaller version of Dell Curry with better play making.


You said he wouldn't sniff the top 15. You seem to be moving the goalposts here. Besides, I really don't see how Curry benefits that much from the current era. There was handchecking, but his lightning quick release and good handles could counter that, and he's great at moving around without the ball to get himself open. He would still be around 24 PPG.

Also, the physicality of the 90's is overblown at times. People act like it was rugby with basketball hoops. Yes, there were refs back then, and yes, they called plenty of fouls. The NBA hasn't changed nearly as much as the NFL for example.



Yet he couldn't get off the bench in the 90s. And when he did, he was launching airballs against the Utah defense. Hmmmm.


I don't see how this refutes my point. Were the early 2000's not one of the tougher defensive eras, if not THE toughest? I don't think the soft competition argument applies to Kobe, considering he's played in the brutal western conference for his entire career and has beaten more 50+ win teams in the playoffs than just about anybody I can think of.

[DonDadda59]

I don't even understand what you're trying to argue.

Naturally.


First you call Kobe a poor man's Jamal Crawford from '99-00, then the very next post you flip the script and describe him as a 2x All-Star who was so skilled out of HS that the Lakers traded a proven big man for him.

Yes, all of these things are true. He was far more skilled than Bron coming out of High School, yet couldn't get on the court while Bron was putting up career high scoring numbers by his third year (which by coincidence was the same time Kobe put up his career best scoring numbers, along with a record number of other perimeter players).


Are you trying to say that '96-00 was a significantly tougher defensive era than '01-04?

For perimeter players? Of course. Kobe, TMac, Iverson, Pierce, VC, etc all played during the former period.


Your whole argument is just awful honestly. As chazzy said, he couldn't get off the bench in the 90's because he wasn't good enough yet. The defense didn't magically change in '99-00 when Kobe was a fringe star or in '00-01 when he became a superstar.

Who said anything about magic? :confusedshrug:

The league started the process of making life easier for perimeter players during this period. They just didn't go all out until the middle of the decade following the Pistons clowning Bean in the '04 finals.


I guess that narrative doesn't fit your revisionist history about the "GOAT 90's" though. :lol

Oh, indeed.

[chazzy]

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again... when were Kobe and LeBron's best scoring seasons. They were drafted 7 years apart with Kobe having played 3+ seasons in the 90s out of High School and Bron having played the vast majority of his career under different rules out of High School. This has nothing to do with Jordan. Talking about 2 guys who are still active in the league, still leading the top 5 PPG leaders.

Any time you're ready.
2006, when the rules were actually changed. But Kobe didn't benefit from the rules relative to his peers. He didn't attack the rim the way Wade or Bron did, and his FT rate was only his 8th highest of his career. It was a perfect storm of him having an absolute green light on a bad team while in his prime.

Lebron was better out of high school. You must be a real Kobe stan to believe his numbers were only suppressed because of the elite 90s defenses. Now answer me this - what changed defensively from 1999 to 2001 when Kobe became a superstar and had one of his best playoff runs of his career? Nothing did. It just took him longer than Lebron to develop out of HS. There's a reason why he was drafted in the teens

or perimeter players? Of course. Kobe, TMac, Iverson, Pierce, VC, etc all played during the former period
LOL you have to be trolling with this shit. Just because players didn't play like stars during their first ONE to three years doesn't mean it was because of the elite defenses. Jesus :lol

Defenses were elite all the way through 2004. There weren't significant rule changes that happened on Y2K that made things suddenly easier

[tpols]

2006, when the rules were actually changed. But Kobe didn't benefit from the rules relative to his peers. He didn't attack the rim the way Wade or Bron did, and his FT rate was only his 8th highest of his career. It was a perfect storm of him having an absolute green light on a bad team while in his prime.

Lebron was better out of high school. You must be a real Kobe stan to believe his numbers were only suppressed because of the elite 90s defenses. Now answer me this - what changed defensively from 1999 to 2001 when Kobe became a superstar and had one of his best playoff runs of his career? Nothing did. It just took him longer than Lebron to develop out of HS. There's a reason why he was drafted in the teens

Not only that but Kobe was on a good team with an all star guard ahead of him.. LeBron came onto a shit Cleveland team and was given the green light from the start.

KG tmac Kobe all high school players with skinny frames took time to physically mature. There's a huge difference physically between rookie Kobe and 01 Kobe.

LeBron had the frame from the start. He was a train since like 17 years old

Wait is this guy saying 97-99 Kobe was just as good as 01 Kobe and the defense between those years was the only difference? Holy shit, Jordan stans are the worst.

[DonDadda59]

You said he wouldn't sniff the top 15. You seem to be moving the goalposts here. Besides, I really don't see how Curry benefits that much from the current era. There was handchecking, but his lightning quick release and good handles could counter that, and he's great at moving around without the ball to get himself open. He would still be around 24 PPG.

When did I move the goal posts? Steph Curry is just a smaller version of Dell Curry. Both phenomenal shooters. But one had the great fortune to play in a league much more favorable to his style of play.



Also, the physicality of the 90's is overblown at times. People act like it was rugby with basketball hoops. Yes, there were refs back then, and yes, they called plenty of fouls. The NBA hasn't changed nearly as much as the NFL for example.

Both the NFL and the NBA have gone far out of their way to make life easier for certain players (in the NBA- perimeter players, in the NFL- QBs and WRs). As a result in both leagues we've seen an unprecedented explosion of offense/scoring from those particular groups. There is no era in NBA History that features as much scoring from perimeter players as a whole as the post early-mid 00s rule changes. Likewise, you see guys like Manning and Brady playing musical chairs with the record books, teams scoring more than ever, etc.

This is common knowledge, but people with misguided agendas still try to argue against the blatantly obvious? :biggums:



I don't see how this refutes my point. Were the early 2000's not one of the tougher defensive eras, if not THE toughest? I don't think the soft competition argument applies to Kobe, considering he's played in the brutal western conference for his entire career and has beaten more 50+ win teams in the playoffs than just about anybody I can think of.

I can think of one guy :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

2006, when the rules were actually changed. But Kobe didn't benefit from the rules relative to his peers. He didn't attack the rim the way Wade or Bron did, and his FT rate was only his 8th highest of his career. It was a perfect storm of him having an absolute green light on a bad team while in his prime.

So you're using my coincidence argument. Awesome. :cheers:

Iverson, who was drafted the same year as Kobe (1996) also had his career best scoring season... but this is all just one big happy coincidence.


Lebron was better out of high school. You must be a real Kobe stan to believe his numbers were only suppressed because of the elite 90s defenses. Now answer me this - what changed defensively from 1999 to 2001 when Kobe became a superstar and had one of his best playoff runs of his career? Nothing did. It just took him longer than Lebron to develop out of HS. There's a reason why he was drafted in the teens

NBA rule changes (source: NBA.com)


1999-00
• In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm. In the post, neither the offensive player nor the defender is allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position. Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player. Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

2000-2001
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

2001-2002
• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.


More coincidences :applause:


LOL you have to be trolling with this shit. Just because players didn't play like stars during their first ONE to three years doesn't mean it was because of the elite defenses. Jesus :lol

Again... tell me about Lebron's first 3 years out of High School compared to HS players that were drafted in the 90s and later became stars (KG, Kobe, T-Mac).

[TheMarkMadsen]

When did I move the goal posts? Steph Curry is just a smaller version of Dell Curry. Both phenomenal shooters. But one had the great fortune to play in a league much more favorable to his style of play.



yeah i remember all of dell curry's 8 assist per game seasons :facepalm

this guy can't be serious :lol

[chazzy]

So you're using my coincidence argument. Awesome. :cheers:

Iverson, who was drafted the same year as Kobe (1996) also had his career best scoring season... but this is all just one big happy coincidence.

I said I agreed the rules changed in 05. It just didn't affect Kobe as much as people think. And despite the nba.com rule changes, everyone knows they weren't actually enforced until the 05 season

Again... tell me about Lebron's first 3 years out of High School compared to HS players that were drafted in the 90s and later became stars (KG, Kobe, T-Mac).
Why do you keep using Lebron? He had an NBA ready body in HS and was the most hyped recruit of all time. He's an outlier. Kobe was drafted in the teens

[Heavincent]

When did I move the goal posts? Steph Curry is just a smaller version of Dell Curry. Both phenomenal shooters. But one had the great fortune to play in a league much more favorable to his style of play.

You originally said he wouldn't sniff the top 15. Now it's "he wouldn't be top 5". Which is it?

Dell Curry wasn't on the same level as his son is right now. He would tell you that himself. It's not even remotely close.


Both the NFL and the NBA have gone far out of their way to make life easier for certain players (in the NBA- perimeter players, in the NFL- QBs and WRs). As a result in both leagues we've seen an unprecedented explosion of offense/scoring from those particular groups. There is no era in NBA History that features as much scoring from perimeter players as a whole as the post early-mid 00s rule changes. Likewise, you see guys like Manning and Brady playing musical chairs with the record books, teams scoring more than ever, etc.

The NFL was more drastic. Don't even get me started on this shit. I can hardly even watch the NFL these days.


I can think of one guy

I assume you're referring to Jordan. Did he? I'm honestly not sure. Even if he did, my point still stands.

[DonDadda59]

yeah i remember all of dell curry's 8 assist per game seasons :facepalm

this guy can't be serious :lol

Dead Serious :crazysam:

From post #44 on the last page:


Steph Curry in the 90s = smaller version of Dell Curry with better play making.

Hit the showers, you'll get em next time kid :applause:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

[QUOTE=iamgine]Even MJ gave it up to Steve Kerr.

[I]You know what's the number one killer of a team that

[TheMarkMadsen]

You just named guys who dwarf Curry. And with the exception of Richmond who had a green light on terrible teams, those guys were never challenging for top 5 PPG or scoring titles.

Steph Curry in the 90s = smaller version of Dell Curry with better play making.



Yet he couldn't get off the bench in the 90s. And when he did, he was launching airballs against the Utah defense. Hmmmm.



I know he's not gonna say shit. He's been around long enough to know better. But anyone is free to step up to the plate. Please, it would make my Saturday. :cheers:

how sad

[bizil]

In my book, u have great passers who are ALSO great scorers like Lebron. But u also have great scorers who are ALSO great passers like Kobe. It's two different mentalities that are very successful throughout NBA history. Most of the guys who were great at both NO MATTER the style won rings. Kobe, Bron, MJ, Magic, Bird, Big O, West, Wade, Frazier, Hondo, Barry, etc. all got the job done.

So Kobe has the skillset, but not a great cast of characters to pass to. So in my book, Kobe NEEDS to be aggressive! On the other hand, Bron has Irving and Love on his squad, so his pass first mentality and versatility is great in that mix. In my book, the difference between Bron and Kobe that's THE BIG ONE is Bron's versatility. He's the most versatile player of all time so it separates Lebron from EVERYBODY in that sense. Even though I think MJ is the GOAT and best player of all time. Kobe's a proven champion and to me alpha dog scoring ability is the MOST PREMIUM ASSET in bball. He has NOTHING to prove to anybody!!

[TheMarkMadsen]

Dead Serious :crazysam:

From post #44 on the last page:



Hit the showers, you'll get em next time kid :applause:

ok, you still can't be serious when you call Curry a smaller version (curry is literally 1 inch shorter ffs) who plays in a league more favorable to his style of play,thats absolutly ridiculous.

curry is an entirely different player

[DonDadda59]

I said I agreed the rules changed in 05. It just didn't affect Kobe as much as people think. And despite the nba.com rule changes, everyone knows they weren't actually enforced until the 05 season


So Kobe's PPG jumped from 24-27 all the way to 35, a career high... which coincided with the wholesale record setting #s from perimeter players league wide (including others that were drafted in the same season- Iverson, Allen, Nash, etc).

But the rule changes didn't affect Kobe.

http://www.somegif.com/gifs/13845845531445580442.GIF


Why do you keep using Lebron? He had an NBA ready body in HS and was the most hyped recruit of all time. He's an outlier. Kobe was drafted in the teens

:rolleyes:

Fine, let's take super athlete LeBron out of the argument and let's use this guy:


Durant, who will likely be chosen No. 2 in the June 28 draft by the Sonics, was the only player who could not bench press 185 pounds at least once. His overall performance ranked 78th out of 80 prospects, and his lackluster workout appears to have widened the gap between him and Ohio State center Greg Oden, who had an impressive combine.

-ESPN Truehoop draft blog

Now I'm sure the HS players who were drafted in the 90s (KG, Kobe, T-Mac) were more physically suited to play the NBA than KD coming out of 1 year in college. Now compare what he did at 19-20 to those guys while playing his whole career (4 scoring championships and counting) under the modern perimeter rules.


My internet connection is on the fritz and this discussion has run its course. It's been fun fellas. :cheers:

[tpols]

Steph curry is the best shooter I've ever seen.. I guess when your dad passes pure shooting blood down to you and you spend your whole life watching pro ballers that mix of nature and nurture produces some of the most skilled best shooting of all time.

He's in a league of his own when it comes to shooting.. The evolution. He shoots off the dribble threes at an unprecedented volume and efficiency. With shortened line? :lol He would literally be the most efficient points per possession player in the league in the 90s.

[gts]

So Kobe's PPG jumped from 24-27 all the way to 35, a career high... which coincided with the wholesale record setting #s from perimeter players league wide (including others that were drafted in the same season- Iverson, Allen, Nash, etc).

But the rule changes didn't affect Kobe.




Kobe's points per game jumped because of the coaching changes added with Shaq and a few others leaving the team not because of rule changes...

[3ball]

Cavaliers star LeBron James drove into the lane and passed to a wide open Donyell Marshall in the right corner for a potential, game-tying 3-pointer with 5.9 seconds left rather than taking the shot himself.


lebron was never greater than he was IN THAT SAME SERIES, where he scored 48 points in Game 5, including 25 out of his team's last 28 points.

but today's game reduces the need for him use this kind of individual brilliance; the spacing has made ball movement more effective and successful than it used to be, so passing it around for an open shot makes more sense than using superman skill to take over...

today's game is just about finishing those open shots created by the ball-movement, so essentially just play-finishing - play-finishing has replaced the individual greatness that used to be required in previous eras... thanks NBA...





The end result is basketball is being played smarter, more efficiently and more selflessly than at any point in the game's history.

For proof, rewatch how the San Antonio Spurs surgically dismantled James and the Miami Heat in the 2014 Finals with precision passing that led to numerous wide-open shots, such as Marshall's.


wait a minute - so now the Spurs destroying the Heat is a boon for Lebron??... sounds like espn is trying to say "Lebron plays like the Spurs."... espn is a joke.

in reality, the SPURS were the ones who played smart basketball by not holding the ball and moving it quickly... otoh, lebron's ball-dominant style is NOT smart - he got through a couple years, but he had to hand-pick a dream team for his suboptimal style to work; in the end, lebron's straightforward game was easy to adjust to and exploit...

espn is so dumb - the play-finishing that today's game is now based on, is not better than the individual brilliance we have seen from past greats, including lebron's 48 points against Detroit and 45 against the Celtics.

[tpols]

Ive posted this before.. but it seems don dadda is completely ignorant of all context.


Kobe from 2001 to 2004(prime before major rule changes)

21 FGA/8 FTA per game = .38 FTs drawn per shot attempted.


Kobe in 2006 during peak scoring season after major rule changes

27 FGA/10 FTA = .37 FTs drawn per shot attempted


Kobe got less free throws given his scoring volume.. which jumped from 21 field goal attempts per game to 27.. a huge difference, because SHAQ was no longer on the team.. you know? A guy that kinda eats up more shots than lamar odom leaving less left over.


If you do this comparison with Wade, Arenas, Iverson, etc. youd see their FTr(free throw rates) went UP in 2006 compared to other years.. because they are slashers.. Kobe was and always has been more of a mid/long range jumpshooter.

[bizil]

lebron was never greater than he was IN THAT SAME SERIES, where he scored 48 points in Game 5, including 25 out of his team's last 28 points.

but today's game reduces the need for him use this kind of individual brilliance to be great like that; the spacing has made ball movement more effective and successful than used to be, so passing it around for an open shot makes more sense than using superman skill to take over.

thanks NBA for reducing the amount of individual greatness required in players.



wait a minute - so now the Spurs destroying the Heat is a boon for Lebron??... sounds like espn is trying to say "Lebron plays like the Spurs."... espn is a joke.

in reality, the SPURS were the ones who played smart basketball by not holding the ball and moving it quickly... otoh, lebron's ball-dominant style is NOT smart - it worked for a couple years, but he had to hand-picking a dream team for his suboptimal style to work; in the end, lebron's straightforward game was easy to adjust to and exploit...

I agree! To me it's why the Golden Era in the 80's as well as the 90's were the best time in basketball. For example, I HATE the fact forms of zone defenses are allowed today. Having to play man to man and double teaming if u can't stop somebody separated the NBA FROM EVERY OTHER LEAGUE in the world. It made u be more strategic in your approach. The most individually dominant players THRIVED!! And in turn, it made their teams better. I also hate how the center position is devalued these days. Historically, seeing what the most dominant position of all time has been reduced to is a shame..

[DonDadda59]

Kobe's points per game jumped because of the coaching changes added with Shaq and a few others leaving the team not because of rule changes...

Just when I thought I was out :facepalm

Kobe in his last season playing with Shaq: 30 PPG (45% FG)
Kobe in the first 2 seasons post Shaq: 26 PPG (43.5% FG)
Kobe in the season he was immune to the rule changes: 35 PPG (45% FG)

http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/2/9/4/0/2/son.jpg

Seriously doe, I'm out.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/1135868_o.gif

[bizil]

Ive posted this before.. but it seems don dadda is completely ignorant of all context.


Kobe from 2001 to 2004(prime before major rule changes)

21 FGA/8 FTA per game = .38 FTs drawn per shot attempted.


Kobe in 2006 during peak scoring season after major rule changes

27 FGA/10 FTA = .37 FTs drawn per shot attempted


Kobe got less free throws given his scoring volume.. which jumped from 21 field goal attempts per game to 27.. a huge difference, because SHAQ was no longer on the team.. you know? A guy that kinda eats up more shots than lamar odom leaving less left over.


If you do this comparison with Wade, Arenas, Iverson, etc. youd see their FTr(free throw rates) went UP in 2006 compared to other years.. because they are slashers.. Kobe was and always has been more of a mid/long range jumpshooter.

Even though Kobe was a great slasher, I agree that his midrange dominance is what he used to REALLY dominate a game. Just like MJ did. I would also throw the post dominance in their too as a great weapon. It's why Kobe and MJ had great longevity being dominant players. Sure they could AND DID overwhelm u with freak athletic ability. BUT they could also dominate a game simply by the midrange arsenal. Ironically, AI and Wade had very good midrange games, but they preferred slashing to it. And in terms were't as durable in the long run as Kobe.

[tpols]

Even though Kobe was a great slasher, I agree that his midrange dominance is what he used to REALLY dominate a game. Just like MJ did. I would also throw the post dominance in their too as a great weapon. It's why Kobe and MJ had great longevity being dominant players. Sure they could AND DID overwhelm u with freak athletic ability. BUT they could also dominate a game simply by the midrange arsenal. Ironically, AI and Wade had very good midrange games, but they preferred slashing to it. And in terms were't as durable in the long run as Kobe.

Yea in all of Kobe's 'big' games it was mostly streak jumpshooting that he went off with. He wasnt like a james harden or something where he was just exploiting rule changes and going to the line all day to average what he did. He was getting less FTAs than Wade while taking NINE more shots! :oldlol:

[gts]

Just when I thought I was out :facepalm

Kobe in his last season playing with Shaq: 30 PPG (45% FG)
Kobe in the first 2 seasons post Shaq: 26 PPG (43.5% FG)
Kobe in the season he was immune to the rule changes: 35 PPG (45% FG)


Stop making up numbers.. kobe 2003-2004 final year with Shaq, 24 ppg

First year with the roster/coaching change 2004-05 27.6 ppg
2005-06 35.4ppg
2006-07 31.6

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe in his last season playing with Shaq: 30 PPG (45% FG)



:facepalm :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Curry? A spot up shooter? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

It doesn't matter if Stephen Curry is the best shooter you've ever seen. He's fragile.

And in a more physical defensive enviornment, like the 90's or early 2000s as many of these young guards today such as Kyrie, Curry, Lillard ... that aren't exceptional athletes either due to strength, or quickness they'd get brutalized or worn out physically to the point in Curry's case be reduced to what his pops was ... a spot up shooter.

Obviously Curry has much better handle, plus a better passer than his father but it doesn't make a huge difference when defenders can put their hands on you or hip check you. He's not all that explosive physically to negate that kind of physicality.

And LMAO @ "the shortened line" it wasn't that significant of a difference and it was only around for a couple years. It ended up making the driving lanes even more congested.

I see steph as a shorter reggie miller with better handles, and playmaking ability.. not as ball dominant iso player, moreso comes off of screens to create or shoot like iverson always did.

Maybe 23/6-7/4 player with absurd TS.

If Reggie Miller could get through all of the brutal contact youre implying Im sure steph could to the same degree. Curry can spot up from like literally 30 feet from the hoop.. Guys back then didnt even have the accuracy and range he does.

Guy shoots 43% from 3 pt land on 6.2 attempts per game.

Reggie Miller shoots 39% on 4.7 attempts.

And steph frequently shoots them from some distance behind the line. Hes been posting some of the greatest 3 pt efficiencies of all time on some of the highest volume. That shooting skill isnt going away.

[Mr Exlax]

a lot of these guys will be free agents at the end of the season, their bad for not giving 100 every night.

I mean, it's not professional of them, but I understand. That's what I was saying. They aren't garbage men other than Jordan Hill. They aren't defensive specialists. To get them to consistently give 100% effort you have to involve them in the game. Even if they suck at offense, you gotta let them at least try so they'll try on defense and shit.

[9erempiree]

There is no "right way" in basketball. I believe "results" is the most important thing here. A player or a team can play the right way and still lose and someone like Kobe or MJ can play the wrong way but win.

[Inferno]

Curry? A spot up shooter? :roll: :roll: :roll:

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Charlie Sheen]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40363/misses-add-up-to-big-part-of-kobes-legacy


:lol ish shortens the url to end ...f kobes legacy

[IncarceratedBob]

kobe system 5 rings 1 mvp

bron system 2 rings alot mvp

Kobes system is more conducive to winning championships while lebrons style glorifies personal achievements ...

at the end of the day it is up to you, which do u prefer? ... :)

[red1]

kobe system 5 rings 1 mvp

bron system 2 rings alot mvp

Kobes system is more conducive to winning championships while lebrons style glorifies personal achievements ...

at the end of the day it is up to you, which do u prefer? ... :)
kobe system

http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/shaq_gasol_09.jpg

[guy]

:oldlol: Kobe really loves overstating and misrepresenting things to make excuses for himself. First of all, pretty much every superstar wing scorer that has ever played has had to take a lot of bailout shots at the end of the shot clock. Kobe is not unique in that regard. Second of all, Jordan never shot 49 times in any Finals game. The most was 43 times in a losing effort in the Finals and it was also a triple OT game, which would correlate to about 33 shots in a regulation game. That's hardly the same thing as what Kobe is suggesting.

Then after this we got the comment about the Spurs. Given its only been like 2 weeks into the season, I have a feeling the rest of this dude's career is just going to be a bunch of damn excuses for why his career wasn't as great, which is pretty stupid since his career was great anyway. And if that's the case, I hope this guy just retires ASAP.

[Cali Syndicate]

Curry > miller

Steph curry >>> his dad

And curry isn't fragile. He severely injured his ankle in a pre season game and never allowed it to heal, playing the entire season, occasionally re-spraining it, progressively making it worse. Had surgery in the off season and was fine ever since. He rolled his ankle the following season, but because the Warriors were tanking anyways, they had him sit the rest of the season. The surgery he had that offseason was to clean up some scar tissue, that's it. This glass ankles thing about curry is a huge misrepresentation.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Great read.

[AKADS]

ESPN Satire (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jg-BzfmF_iY)
Watch this Video about ESPN.

[jstern]

The article wasn't as negative as the OP's headline, but the Kobe quotes does make him sound really insecure. You can tell it affects him even if he says he doesn't care.

[Dr.J4ever]

:rolleyes:

So now it's about Hockey assists... regular assists don't count? Isn't that convenient because now we can overlook the fact that the league averaged more APG in the mid 90s than teams do now. And speaking of 'hero ball' you have guys like James Harden living at the free throw line because all he does is barge his way into the lane thanks to the lax perimeter rules. Same with Steph Curry AKA midget Reggie Miller. These guys would've never sniffed the top 15 scoring leaders list back then.

I just don't what you've been watching all these years. Most everyone will agree that the 90s were a more rugged era in NBA hoops with emphasis on iso ball and post ups as the most effective half court offenses.

Again, assists aren't necessarily a good indicator of team play. Why? Because it doesn't preclude the possibility of 1 or 2 ball dominant players in 1 team passing it to 1 player who finishes. Simple, but dumbed down offenses. It is easier to defend a team in the long run that doesn't pass the ball around to other players. Yes, with today's rules, it is easier to defend a team that doesn't move the ball around.

This is why hockey assists are a much better, but not the only, indicator of team play. "Hockey assists" will indicate more players are handling the rock and creating for other teammates, and thus making them harder to stop.Example...the Spurs.

Stop with the era comparisons already. One decade had a different style of play, and this era has it's own way too. That era is done with, and the story of this era is still being written. I like the suspense better.

The thread has more to do with Kobe's style or recent history or "era" vs. Lebron's style or "right way". Is Lebron's style just like the 2014 Spurs? Not even. SA has certainly taken the "right way" into another level altogether. It's beautiful to watch.

However, you're entitled to love the historical side of the 90s. More power to you.:cheers:

[coin24]

Stay classy ESPN:lol

Look how shook those di.ck slurping f@ggots are acting ever since kobe called them a bunch of idiots :oldlol:

All of there dumb polls and stupid opinion pieces from there writers with as much credibility as pauk, just pathetic.

[JebronLames]

kobe system 5 rings 1 mvp

bron system 2 rings alot mvp

Kobes system is more conducive to winning championships while lebrons style glorifies personal achievements ...

at the end of the day it is up to you, which do u prefer? ... :)
5 sidekick rings < 2 alpha rings and Lebron will get more.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Even I could win a couple of rings playing with Shaq in his prime.

[BigBoss]

Kobe has more rings and Lebrons lost in the finals 3 times. I dont get it.

[3ball]

Even I could win a couple of rings playing with Shaq in his prime.


your point that a prime shaq insta-rings with anyone decent is not valid - a prime Shaq plus 3 other all-stars, robert horry, elden campbell, derek fisher, and rick fox couldn't even get to the Finals, let alone ring - they lost in 5 games to the Utah Jazz in the 1997 WCSF, and got swept by the Jazz in the 1998 WCF..

prime shaq was a lot like lebron - super-athletic but with a rigid, limited, unadjustable, and ultimately exploitable repertoire... only when he played with prime kobe and wade did his teams insta-ring - and that was the case for other players as well (pau, lebron).

[sportjames23]

*Yawn* More bullshyt to hype up LeBron and today's superstars. TEAM basketball and skills were at their absolute pinnacle during late 80s and early 90s.


/thread

[aau]

I was speaking out my ass again

Kobe surpassing Jordan got me ishin







sue me.





applause




made my Sunday

[Hey Yo]

your point that a prime shaq insta-rings with anyone decent is not valid - a prime Shaq plus 3 other all-stars, robert horry, elden campbell, derek fisher, and rick fox couldn't even get to the Finals, let alone ring - they lost in 5 games to the Utah Jazz in the 1997 WCSF, and got swept by the Jazz in the 1998 WCF..

prime shaq was a lot like lebron - super-athletic but with a rigid, limited, unadjustable, and ultimately exploitable repertoire... only when he played with prime kobe and wade did his teams insta-ring - and that was the case for other players as well (pau, lebron).
Insert Phil Jackson (and the triangle) for 99-00 season = instant success and a championship Would be a safe bet that if he were there a year or two before, they would have won a title.

Kobe was in his prime against the Pacers for Shaq's first Finals MVP? His 15ppg that series couldn't be replaced by someone else and still win the title?

[PsychoBe]

Insert Phil Jackson (and the triangle) for 99-00 season = instant success and a championship Would be a safe bet that if he were there a year or two before, they would have won a title.

Kobe was in his prime against the Pacers for Shaq's first Finals MVP? His 15ppg that series couldn't be replaced by someone else and still win the title?

this guy :facepalm

name another "star" that could imitate kobe's clutch road performance during the finals after shaq fouled out. please. t-mac didn't have the offensive arsenal, a.i. didn't have the defensive versatility nor the size/length to secure the boards, we already saw what a prime penny capable of :oldlol:

just face it. kobe and phil made shaq's run possible.

[macpierce]

hero ball vs coward ball

:D

[sbw19]

Cavs 3rd best scorer is Kevin Love.

Lakers 2nd best scorer is Swaggy P, and he isn't even playing.

West no joke. LeBron's right way got massacred in the finals last season. And his teammates were 10x as good as Kobe's this season. Current Laker team with a healthy Randle would be vying for a 6-8th seed in the east, prolly would make playoffs regardless.

As for Kobe's hero ball, it got him 2 titles as main man, and 5 in total. In the west. I'd call that an accomplishment worth noting. Then again, we all know how objective ESPN writers are.

[Nash]

Kobe has more rings and Lebrons lost in the finals 3 times. I dont get it.
only thing he has over lebron is sidekick rings.

[mehyaM24]

this guy :facepalm

name another "star" that could imitate kobe's clutch road performance during the finals after shaq fouled out.

the same kobe that was outscored by austin croshere, just averaging 15ppg on 37% shooting for the series? that kobe?

meanwhile, shaq's fould-out self maintained a 38ppg/16 reb/61% shooting average, winning the finals mvp in a landslide.

[PsychoBe]

the same kobe that was outscored by austin croshere, just averaging 15ppg on 37% shooting for the series? that kobe?

meanwhile, shaq's fould-out self maintained a 38ppg/16 reb/61% shooting average, winning the finals mvp in a landslide.

the same injured ankle kobe that jalen rose caused intentionally? :oldlol:

shaq fouled out and if kobe didn't step-up they would had lost that game in ot plain and simple.

[mehyaM24]

the same injured ankle kobe that jalen rose caused intentionally? :oldlol:

shaq fouled out and if kobe didn't step-up they would had lost that game in ot plain and simple.
thats right, the lakers won a title with kobe averaging austin croshere numbers.

shaq was definitely rocking his jansport in that series.

[greymatter]

During the Spurs run at the title last year, I created a post," Are the Spurs about to end "hero ball"? I like this article as proof that the Spurs indeed opened some eyes, but the article also suggests that Lebron is one of a new breed in the last few years who has led a "right way" approach to basketball.

People forget all about the 2004 Pistons. They also won as a complete team effort. The difference was that they destroyed their opponent with suffocating defense rather than razor sharp offensive efficiency. But what the Spurs managed to do was even more unprecedented in that their role players had a bigger overall impact than TD/TP/Gino collectively. The Spurs big three averaged 48ppg while the rest of the team combined for ~56ppg.

There's only one Greg Poppovich. Other teams might want to emulate their formula, but it's all about having the right type of players and coach. Never in NBA history has a Finals MVP been a player with 0 all star selections and the 4th best player on his team.

Hero ball might become less relevant when it comes to winning at the highest level, but it's certainly in no danger of being "ended".

[TheMarkMadsen]

If anything this will just increase Kobes legacy years from now when they look back at Kobe and realize he was the true last real alpha alive & did things his own way.

He'll be known as the guy who shipped out Shaq just so he could prove a point, and won b2b fmvps while exiting his prime while others had to ship themselves to other teams with other all stars in their primes just to win a ring or two

[Prometheus]

hero ball aka MJ and Kobe ball is 11/13

Weird, I thought it was called the "triangle offense".

[DonDadda59]

Weird, I thought it was called the "triangle offense".

You mean mid range iso hero ball, no? What is this 'triangle offense' you speak of? :confusedshrug:

[Blue&Orange]

Let me see if i get it...

ESPN is crediting the spurs type of basketball to Lebron cowardly passing the ball when he was in the paint under the basket?


There isn't enough smileys in the world!

[DonDadda59]

Bulls Championships in the 90s


APG (League Rank) / Pace / ORTG
'91:

27 (4th)/ 95.6/ 114.6
'92:

27.8 (3rd)/ 94.4/ 115.5
'93:

26 (6th)/ 92.5/ 112.9
'96:

24.8 (5th)/ 91.1/ 115.2
'97:

26.1 (2nd)/ 90.0/ 114.4
'98:

23.8 (7th)/ 89.0/ 107.7

Spurs Championship Last Season

'14:

25.2 (1st)/ 95.0/ 110.5

League Wide
'95-'99: Pace- 90.28 APG- 21.85 ORTG- 105.38
'10-'14: Pace- 92.4 APG- 21.56 ORTG- 106.06

Spurs played at a higher pace than the vast majority of the Bulls championship teams but had lower offensive ratings and averaged less assists as a team. League wide, teams now are playing at higher paces but averaging slightly less assists than teams in the mid to late 90s did. Dat hero ball :bowdown:

[3ball]

Bulls Championships in the 90s


APG (League Rank) / Pace / ORTG
'91:

27 (4th)/ 95.6/ 114.6
'92:

27.8 (3rd)/ 94.4/ 115.5
'93:

26 (6th)/ 92.5/ 112.9
'96:

24.8 (5th)/ 91.1/ 115.2
'97:

26.1 (2nd)/ 90.0/ 114.4
'98:

23.8 (7th)/ 89.0/ 107.7

Spurs Championship Last Season

'14:

25.2 (1st)/ 95.0/ 110.5

League Wide
'95-'99: Pace- 90.28 APG- 21.85 ORTG- 105.38
'10-'14: Pace- 92.4 APG- 21.56 ORTG- 106.06

Spurs played at a higher pace than the vast majority of the Bulls championship teams but had lower offensive ratings and averaged less assists as a team. League wide, teams now are playing at higher paces but averaging slightly less assists than teams in the mid to late 90s did. Dat hero ball :bowdown:
indeed... what more is there to say really

[guy]

I just don't what you've been watching all these years. Most everyone will agree that the 90s were a more rugged era in NBA hoops with emphasis on iso ball and post ups as the most effective half court offenses.

Again, assists aren't necessarily a good indicator of team play. Why? Because it doesn't preclude the possibility of 1 or 2 ball dominant players in 1 team passing it to 1 player who finishes. Simple, but dumbed down offenses. It is easier to defend a team in the long run that doesn't pass the ball around to other players. Yes, with today's rules, it is easier to defend a team that doesn't move the ball around.

This is why hockey assists are a much better, but not the only, indicator of team play. "Hockey assists" will indicate more players are handling the rock and creating for other teammates, and thus making them harder to stop.Example...the Spurs.

Stop with the era comparisons already. One decade had a different style of play, and this era has it's own way too. That era is done with, and the story of this era is still being written. I like the suspense better.

The thread has more to do with Kobe's style or recent history or "era" vs. Lebron's style or "right way". Is Lebron's style just like the 2014 Spurs? Not even. SA has certainly taken the "right way" into another level altogether. It's beautiful to watch.

However, you're entitled to love the historical side of the 90s. More power to you.:cheers:

Pretty much every hockey assist leads to a regular assist. So high assist numbers for a TEAM overall still indicates great team play. High assists for an individual doesn't necessarily because it could just indicate that one individual dominates the ball too much.

[Hey Yo]

this guy :facepalm

name another "star" that could imitate kobe's clutch road performance during the finals after shaq fouled out. please. t-mac didn't have the offensive arsenal, a.i. didn't have the defensive versatility nor the size/length to secure the boards, we already saw what a prime penny capable of :oldlol:

just face it. kobe and phil made shaq's run possible.
Shaq fouled out with 2:33 left in OT and scored right before doing so. He put up 38pts and 21 rebounds playing the same amount of minutes as Kobe did, 47.

Kobe made 2 jumpers and a put back off of Brian Shaw's miss. Yeah, no other star could ever dream about doing what Kobe did after Shaq fouled out. :rolleyes: :lol :rolleyes: :lol

[PsychoBe]

Shaq fouled out with 2:33 left in OT and scored right before doing so. He put up 38pts and 21 rebounds playing the same amount of minutes as Kobe did, 47.

Kobe made 2 jumpers and a put back off of Brian Shaw's miss. Yeah, no other star could ever dream about doing what Kobe did after Shaq fouled out. :rolleyes: :lol :rolleyes: :lol

this guy :roll: :roll: :roll:

kobe was one of the reasons why they were still in the game, if he hadn't been rolling into that ot then the lakers would had lost thanks to the almighty shaq's foul trouble. simple as that.

give credit where credit is due. kobe stepped up big time. remember the saying was "two deep" when it came to the early 2000's lakers as it was literally kobe and shaq. no one ever said "oh it's just shaq's team he does all the work" :oldlol: revisionist history at its finest.

[bizil]

Once again, THE BOTTOM LINE is both styles work!! They've both won rings so NEITHER ONE has nothing to prove!! My theory is most of the legendary kind of guys who were great scorers AND great passers in one won rings. Some were score first while others were pass first. But in any event they were great offensive players who could dominate a game either way. Sure u could prefer one to the other, but either way works. And the thread seems to be slanted against Kobe as it is. Kobe has nothing to prove because he's WON RINGS!! He may come across as an asshole at times to people, but it is what it is. But of course Lebron's versatility and pass first nature is epic too! For me, it depends on the team makeup. As great as MJ was, I might prefer Magic or Bird for that particular team.

When it comes to the Spurs, sure they have a great system and coach. But even in roster depth, The Spurs were the superior team to Miami anyway. Their big three ALSO fit together better than Miami's. U have a two way post anchor in Duncan, which is something the Heat NEVER HAD. U have a great all around versatile perimeter guy in Ginobli. Plus u have an unstoppable slasher at PG in Parker. From there u have an rising freak athlete star in Leonard. After that u have a multitude of specialists or u have Diaw who's has a great IQ and versatile as hell. So we can break out all the formulas u want, the Spurs STILL had three HOFers and a deep cast of characters. The 2004 Pistons is a MUCH MORE INTERESTING case to look at in terms of team ball. Because they didn't have has much offensive firepower. AND they didn't have three HOFers on the team either. Chauncey may get in. Big Ben will get in, but he's going in for his defense and rebounding contributions.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Weird, I thought it was called the "triangle offense".

How many rings does the triangle offense have without Jordan or Kobe?

[riseagainst]

How many rings does the triangle offense have without Jordan or Kobe?

to be fair, Phil only coached while having the two on his team.

[TheMarkMadsen]

to be fair, Phil only coached while having the two on his team.

there's a reason the triangle offensive is hardly ever ran these days and it has more to do with teams not having a Kobe/Jordan than not having a Phil Jackson..

[Prometheus]

there's a reason the triangle offensive is hardly ever ran these days and it has more to do with teams not having a Kobe/Jordan than not having a Phil Jackson..

Care to explain your expert insight on this?

[NBAplayoffs2001]

SportsNation > Sportscenter

[kentatm]

that's the age we live in now, exemplified by Obama's statement "you didn't build that"

it ain't about doing what you can and being the best, it's about stacking the right team and getting the right network so you don't have to be the best or do the work

In this day and age, concepts like heroism and perseverence become quaint throwaway and punchlines in shitty ESPN articles

So yea Kobe might have the most misses, but at least he owns that. as for Lebron's 2 rings? he didn't build that

:lol

Actually, the thing that exemplifies the age we live now is your post. You took a tiny piece of an out of context quote and ran with it in a wildly wrong direction based off horseshit spewed at you by paid liars otherwise known as political flacks.

Congrats. You are part of the low information, distracted by shiny objects, only read the headlines, spoon feed me please generation. :hammerhead: :applause:

[stephanieg]

This "hero vs. team player" spiel is as old as the NBA. Wilt vs. Russell media narrative in a nutshell.

[3ball]

Care to explain your expert insight on this?
the triangle is a pass-initiation offense that throws the ball into the post on every possession forming a triangle.

accordingly, the triangle does not allow for ANY ball-domination, and it requires it's first option to be a goat-level post player, as kobe, jordan, and shaq were.

so only THEY could use the triangle at a high level, while everyone else fell short.

only THEY were had sufficient skill worthy of unlocking the triangle's greatness... :lol

hate on it but it's true.. :confusedshrug: