President of Turkey says Muslims Discovered America

[zoom17]

This guy is insane:roll:


https://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-muslims-not-columbus-discovered-americas-162759161.html

[HitandRun Reggie]

Muslims didn't even build or found Turkey's largest, richest, most famous city. :rolleyes:

[sweggeh]

Seems legit.

[Nowitness]

I've heard people say African Muslims encountered America hundreds of years before Columbus but still.

[sweggeh]

I've heard people say African Muslims encountered America hundreds of years before Columbus but still.

I've heard that too. That was probably what he was talking about I guess.

Once again, ISH poster provides great context while ridiculing a statement....

:facepalm

[Trollsmasher]

Ignoring natives, Leif Erikson made it there somewhere after 986 after Bjarni Herj

[KingBeasley08]

I've heard people say African Muslims encountered America hundreds of years before Columbus but still.
The Vikings were the one's that came to America first. Unless they were Muslims, that idiot is still wrong.


Ataturk must be turning in his grave. Current Turkish President is destroying everything he stood for

[Patrick Chewing]

What's next, they were the first ones to land on the moon too?? :oldlol:

[rezznor]

asians beat them both

[LJJ]

The Vikings were the one's that came to America first. Unless they were Muslims, that idiot is still wrong.


Ataturk must be turning in his grave. Current Turkish President is destroying everything he stood for

Well they were kind of like Muslims. Invading civilized European lands. Raping the women and children and profiteering from the hard work of others. Justifying this all with an ass backwards culture and religion. Then back away and hide when the retaliation comes.

[fiddy]

asians beat them both

vikings beat everyone

[HitandRun Reggie]

asians beat them both

Those "Asians" weren't like the vast majority of Asians today. They were more like European-Asian hybrids. They had both Mongloid and Caucasoid DNA.

[KingBeasley08]

Well they were kind of like Muslims. Invading civilized European lands. Raping the women and children and profiteering from the hard work of others. Justifying this all with an ass backwards culture and religion. Then back away and hide when the retaliation comes.
True, cant say I know about Viking history. Are only Scandinavians really descended from the Vikings or do England and other North European countries in that category too. I've heard it said that the English are a Germanic people? Not sure, that whole topic is confusing


vikings beat everyone
Well technically Rez is right. The Native Americans in the Americas came from Asia across Siberia but I assume when people mean "discover", they mean recently which in case the Vikings were the first to get there

[Trollsmasher]

Well they were kind of like Muslims. Invading civilized European lands. Raping the women and children and profiteering from the hard work of others. Justifying this all with an ass backwards culture and religion. Then back away and hide when the retaliation comes.
Hollywood history:lol

[NumberSix]

True, cant say I know about Viking history. Are only Scandinavians really descended from the Vikings or do England and other North European countries in that category too. I've heard it said that the English are a Germanic people? Not sure, that whole topic is confusing
The English are NOT Germanic people. The English LANGUAGE is a western Germanic language.

And no, the English were not Vikings. The Scandinavian countries like Norway is were the Vikings came from.

[9erempiree]

The Mussies didn't do shit.

[gigantes]

I've heard it said that the English are a Germanic people?
after the celts and romans, it was indeed germanic-related tribes that conquered england. i.e., the angles, the saxons, the normans (vikings who had already conquered northern france).

but like the aryans who conquered india, the victors typically merge and intermingle with the previous tenants, and it all becomes a big hybrid. so the english are a mixture of celtic, germanic, latin and many variations of those peoples, plus additional smaller influences.

but yea, the english language is based on the old west german structure and vocabulary, mixed primarily with norman french and evolved from there.

[KingBeasley08]

after the celts and romans, it was indeed germanic-related tribes that conquered england. i.e., the angles, the saxons, the normans (vikings who had already conquered northern france).

but like the aryans who conquered india, the victors typically merge and intermingle with the previous tenants, and it all becomes a big hybrid. so the english are a mixture of celtic, germanic, latin and many variations of those peoples, plus additional smaller influences.

but yea, the english language is based on the old west german structure and vocabulary, mixed primarily with norman french and evolved from there.
Isn't the Aryan invasion thought to be bogus? Rather just migration over a large period of time

As for the English, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation :cheers:

[masonanddixon]

We still know very little about how the Native Americans got there.

[gigantes]

Isn't the Aryan invasion thought to be bogus? Rather just migration over a large period of time

As for the English, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation :cheers:
np. :cheers:

re: aryans,
yes indeed, i believe it was correctly a combination of migrations / smallish-scale invasions in to india over time, altho there were a darker-skinned peoples already there.

for example from what i understand, most of the (many, many) gods worshipped today in india are combinations and transformations of the original gods with the (much smaller) number the aryans brought with them.

[NumberSix]

after the celts and romans, it was indeed germanic-related tribes that conquered england. i.e., the angles, the saxons, the normans (vikings who had already conquered northern france).

but like the aryans who conquered india, the victors typically merge and intermingle with the previous tenants, and it all becomes a big hybrid. so the english are a mixture of celtic, germanic, latin and many variations of those peoples, plus additional smaller influences.

but yea, the english language is based on the old west german structure and vocabulary, mixed primarily with norman french and evolved from there.
Let's be careful not to get people mixed up with language and culture.

The English mainly consist of the native people of the British isles. To say they are some kind of hybrid of Celtic, Germanic and Latin (?) peoples is just not true.

First, it depends what you mean by "Celtic". When people hear the term Celtic, they mainly think of Irish and Scottish people, but in modern times, it's actually been debated whether its appropriate for these people to even be labeled as Celtic. ASSUMING that by "Celtic" what you meant was native British, then that part is true.

As for Germanic peoples, the problem with that is that it is relying too much on very outdated information and techniques. It used to be that the only way we could estimate the movement of populations was through language and culture. This makes perfect sense for migration, but in the age of empire and trade, this kind of technique gets sticky. It's gets difficult to tell the difference between if linguistic and cultural influences can be attributed to migration or due to trade/interactions with other populations. Of course, these days we now have DNA which is infinitely more reliable than tracking cultural things like religion, art and language. The truth is, Germanic people's genetic contribution to the English is maybe 5%. The people of the British isles are actually most genetically related to the northern Spanish.

The Irish, Scottish, welsh and english like to think they are different peoples, and culturally they are, but genetically they're all the same.

[gigantes]

Let's be careful not to get people mixed up with language and culture.

The English mainly consist of the native people of the British isles. To say they are some kind of hybrid of Celtic, Germanic and Latin (?) peoples is just not true.

First, it depends what you mean by "Celtic". When people hear the term Celtic, they mainly think of Irish and Scottish people, but in modern times, it's actually been debated whether its appropriate for these people to even be labeled as Celtic. ASSUMING that by "Celtic" what you meant was native British, then that part is true.

As for Germanic peoples, the problem with that is that it is relying too much on very outdated information and techniques. It used to be that the only way we could estimate the movement of populations was through language and culture. This makes perfect sense for migration, but in the age of empire and trade, this kind of technique gets sticky. It's gets difficult to tell the difference between if linguistic and cultural influences can be attributed to migration or due to trade/interactions with other populations. Of course, these days we now have DNA which is infinitely more reliable than tracking cultural things like religion, art and language. The truth is, Germanic people's genetic contribution to the English is maybe 5%. The people of the British isles are actually most genetically related to the northern Spanish.

The Irish, Scottish, welsh and english like to think they are different peoples, and culturally they are, but genetically they're all the same.
at the Mexican bar right now. I'll deal with your interesting notions later, brokowski.

[Nowitness]

The Vikings were the one's that came to America first. Unless they were Muslims, that idiot is still wrong.


Ataturk must be turning in his grave. Current Turkish President is destroying everything he stood for

I wasn't debating vikings, just stating that African Muslims prolly found America before Columbus.

[tomtucker]

I wasn't debating vikings, just stating that African Muslims prolly found America before Columbus.

How did they travel ?

[Timmy D for MVP]

How did they travel ?

By boat? Were you presuming they flew?

There is a debate, and some thought, that African sailors landed in the Americas before and Europeans. Not a lot of people are involved in it though if I remember correctly. I haven't really had time to get to the literature myself but I intend to at some point. Very interesting stuff.

[tomtucker]

So the Muslims discovered America by boat.........pretty amazing since they haven't even discovered soap..........:eek:

[Inactive]

True, cant say I know about Viking history. Are only Scandinavians really descended from the Vikings or do England and other North European countries in that category too.The vikings who conducted raids on England, Ireland, and France, were mostly from Norway, and Denmark. The vikings involved in (slave)trade down the Volga river, and across the Black sea, and Caspian sea, were mostly Swedes. The vikings who guarded the Byzantine emperors were probably mostly Swedes, but some were certainly Danes, and Norwegians. The rest of northwestern Europe was Christian by the time you get to the viking age.

Many Danes, and Norwegians settled in Scotland, northern England, and Ireland as well. Dublin started off as a viking settlement. The name of the northern English city York (Jorvik) comes from the vikings, though the city was founded by the Romans centuries earlier. Throughout the 9th-10th centuries, much of northern England was a semi-autonomous region called the Danelaw, where viking settlers continued to live according to Danish custom, under their own leader. Northern (particularly the islands), and eastern Scotland was also heavily settled by vikings.

Over time, the Hiberno-Norse (Irish vikings), and Norwegian/Danish settlers in Great Britain, converted to Christianity, and began to identify as Irish, Scottish, or English. Some of the northern English dialects are apparently still heavily influenced by old Norse though.

The Normans, who conquered England in 1066, were sort of half vikings. The Normans were originally vikings who terrorized the coast of France. In order to stop the raids, the king of France just gave them the land, so that they would be responsible for defending it from their viking cousins. They took French wives, converted to Christianity, learned the French language, and basically became culturally French. A few generations later, they invaded England over a disputed succession to the English throne, and defeated Norwegians led by the famous viking Harald Hardrada, as well the English. After that, the Normans became the ruling class in England.

Swedes settled in southern Russia, and Ukraine, because it gave them convenient access to the Black, and Caspian seas. The Arab, and Byzantine empires were wealthier and more technologically advanced than the western European countries at that time, so it was important to have a trading route to Turkey (across the Black sea), and Iran (across the Caspian sea). These vikings were also absorbed by the local population, and eventually became Russians, and Ukrainians. In the west, most scholars think the name Rus' comes from ruots (rower) referring to the vikings, and that the Kievan Rus', and thus the roots of Russian civilization come from the vikings. Even if that's the case, it seems clear that they merged with the local Slavs, and adopted their language, pretty early on. There is some controversy over how all this happened, and not much of a historical record.

tl;dr: The vikings were Scandinavians, but the the history of the northern European countries overlaps a great deal. All northern Europeans have some connection to the vikings, even though the vikings came from Scandinavia specifically.


I've heard it said that the English are a Germanic people? Not sure, that whole topic is confusingEnglish language comes from various Germanic peoples who conquered south east Britain, and settled there. They're the Angles (probably from north east Germany), Saxons (north west Germany), Jutes (Denmark), and Frisians (Netherlands). Prior to that, the native people of Great Britain spoke languages related to Welsh, which they received from earlier Celtic conquerors.

It's not clear to what extent these Germanic tribes, other conquerors, and settlers, replaced the Britons. Numbersix is going to say hardly at all; the British are all descended from ice age settlers, because of his UKIP/BNP anti-immigration agenda. If he cites anyone, it will probably Stephen Oppenheimer, a British pediatrician, who wrote a popular book about the subject.

[sweggeh]

This idiocy just goes to show the general opinions of most Westeners. This blatant racism is exactly the kind of stuff that was happening in NAZI Germany just before World War 2.

You do realise that Muslims ARE the cleanest people in the world do you not? If you knew anything (which you dont since im assuming youre America), youde know that the Koran makes it clear that all Muslims should keep themselves clean at all times. And just like you and the other racists in this thread keep alluding too, the majority of Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammad way to seriously. Well they would in this case as well, and they do.

When the Christians (mostly from England/France and Germany) marched to the Holy Land during the Crusades they stopped over in Serbia on the way. The hosts set up accommodation and meals for them, but were disgusted that their guests were using their hands to eat like savages. Your ancestors didnt even know what a knife and fork was.......

Dat ether was vicious. The bolded part made me LOL.

Seriously though I used to like TomTucker but has been progressively becoming way more bitch made over time. Similar situation with 9erempiree too. Dudes quality of posting has dropped like crazy since he started letting Muslims live rent free in his head.

[tomtucker]

:oldlol: :lol ..........no soap and obvious no sense of humor.......:oldlol: i was joking, BUT:
.
You do realise that Muslims ARE the cleanest people in the world do you not?

:biggums:
-
then why do bus and cab drivers smell like shit and sweaty socks ?

[tomtucker]

Dat ether was vicious. The bolded part made me LOL.

Seriously though I used to like TomTucker but has been progressively becoming way more bitch made over time. Similar situation with 9erempiree too. Dudes quality of posting has dropped like crazy since he started letting Muslims live rent free in his head.

That

[boozehound]

not what this guy means, but there were probably muslims in Columbus's fleet. People forget that the various kingdoms that made up spain were pretty religiously diverse, with lots of jews and muslims. Now, the converso laws of the 1490s made people hide their faith, but certainly lots of jews escaped to the new world (lots of articles about this in the early settlement of new mexico as well as parts of peru).

[NumberSix]

It's not clear to what extent these Germanic tribes, other conquerors, and settlers, replaced the Britons. Numbersix is going to say hardly at all; the British are all descended from ice age settlers, because of his UKIP/BNP anti-immigration agenda. If he cites anyone, it will probably Stephen Oppenheimer, a British pediatrician, who wrote a popular book about the subject.
You do make a legit point. Some people like the BNP do in fact try to use the information we are discussing for pretty shady reasons. They are a former nazi/white supremacist group. I think it's unfair to assume that my personal interest in the subject is the same as their interest which is motivated by a political agenda.

Here's what people like the BNP never understand though. What makes being related to Germanic people "pro-immigration" and being related to Spanish people "anti-immigration"? Does that make any sense? What's the difference?

[nightprowler10]

Who are you and what have you done with NumberSix?

[Inactive]

You do make a legit point. Some people like the BNP do in fact try to use the information we are discussing for pretty shady reasons. They are a former nazi/white supremacist group. I think it's unfair to assume that my personal interest in the subject is the same as their interest which is motivated by a political agenda.I'm sorry if my suspicions regarding your motives were unfair.


Here's what people like the BNP never understand though. What makes being related to Germanic people "pro-immigration" and being related to Spanish people "anti-immigration"? Does that make any sense? What's the difference?I think it's just the common neo-Nazi, racial essentialist idea, that every people has a single ursprungsland which they should all stay in. As if ethnic groups popped out of the ground in locations corresponding to the borders of modern countries, and never crossed those boundaries until today.

The pro-immigration left likes to emphasize the way in which the nation, and people were created by numerous migrations, and cultural exchanges, making them a multicultural patchwork. The idea is that the nation has changed continually, so changes brought on by immigration today are really nothing new. There is no "pure", or authentic, native people to preserve, and immigrants only enrich the existing diversity of the nation.

The anti-immigration right likes to claim that their ancestors have lived in Britain since the ice age, that any past immigration was insignificant, and that the people and culture are entirely autochthonous. The idea is that they evolved on British soil. Thus, the influx of foreign people is a new, and destructive phenomenon, which threatens their race, which had remained pure for tens of thousands of years.

Both sides are dishonest, and twist information to fit their agendas.

[kentatm]

since it looks like nobody read the article, here is what the Turkish president's claim is based off of


A tiny minority of Muslim scholars have recently suggested a prior Muslim presence in the Americas, although no pre-Columbian ruin of an Islamic structure has ever been found.

In a controversial article published in 1996, historian Youssef Mroueh refers to a diary entry from Columbus that mentions a mosque in Cuba. But the passage is widely understood to be a metaphorical reference to the shape of the landscape.

[nightprowler10]

While it wouldn't be shocking since Muslims were known to be explorers/traders at one point, this is all just a bunch of hooey.

[Dresta]

.

It's not clear to what extent these Germanic tribes, other conquerors, and settlers, replaced the Britons. Numbersix is going to say hardly at all; the British are all descended from ice age settlers, because of his UKIP/BNP anti-immigration agenda. If he cites anyone, it will probably Stephen Oppenheimer, a British pediatrician, who wrote a popular book about the subject.
Erm... don't lump UKIP and BNP together please, as the former are not 'anti-immigration' only anti-EU and are opposed unfettered immigration rather than immigration per se, as any sensible person is. The BNP on the other hand is just a bunch of angry and racist assholes.

Here's Farage saying the government should help Syrian refugees by allowing them entry to the UK: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nigel-farage-calls-on-government-to-let-syrian-refugees-into-uk-9029113.html

They are the only party with any political influence that doesn't plain ignore the effect economic migration has had on the working classes in the UK, and that you can't afford to have a welfare state and free healthcare and then allow citizens to pour in from all over the shop taking advantage of it. I know people from Slovakia (who studied there) and in the summer would come over to London, accumulate money (with minimum wage being 3-4 times higher in England), and take the money home.

These people are hardly much help as they tend to bring high standards to even the shittiest work, making it harder for the more useless to get employment at all (and working those kind of shitty jobs showed me just how useless some people are - like children almost). So the government is now offering businesses cash incentives (quite large ones too) to take on their long-term unemployed (more than 6 months). I've done a good amount of waiting in my time and was surprised at the standards demanded even for minimum wage work.

[kurple]

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]Ignoring natives, Leif Erikson made it there somewhere after 986 after Bjarni Herj

[GimmeThat]

I am unfamiliar with the Koran

but I don't know if it mentions that of a God in which created the universe

[gigantes]

not what this guy means, but there were probably muslims in Columbus's fleet. People forget that the various kingdoms that made up spain were pretty religiously diverse, with lots of jews and muslims. Now, the converso laws of the 1490s made people hide their faith, but certainly lots of jews escaped to the new world (lots of articles about this in the early settlement of new mexico as well as parts of peru).
really? this might clarify why a certain peruvian-jewish portion of history is rather missing.

could you point me to some of the alleged articles, pls?

[gigantes]

Let's be careful not to get people mixed up with language and culture.

The English mainly consist of the native people of the British isles. To say they are some kind of hybrid of Celtic, Germanic and Latin (?) peoples is just not true.

First, it depends what you mean by "Celtic". When people hear the term Celtic, they mainly think of Irish and Scottish people, but in modern times, it's actually been debated whether its appropriate for these people to even be labeled as Celtic. ASSUMING that by "Celtic" what you meant was native British, then that part is true.

As for Germanic peoples, the problem with that is that it is relying too much on very outdated information and techniques. It used to be that the only way we could estimate the movement of populations was through language and culture. This makes perfect sense for migration, but in the age of empire and trade, this kind of technique gets sticky. It's gets difficult to tell the difference between if linguistic and cultural influences can be attributed to migration or due to trade/interactions with other populations. Of course, these days we now have DNA which is infinitely more reliable than tracking cultural things like religion, art and language. The truth is, Germanic people's genetic contribution to the English is maybe 5%. The people of the British isles are actually most genetically related to the northern Spanish.

The Irish, Scottish, welsh and english like to think they are different peoples, and culturally they are, but genetically they're all the same.
sorry, but almost everything you just said is flawed / already debunked / highly inconclusive / pure speculation.

i won't neg you, bro... you seem honest in a sense. but it does need to be asked-- WHERE did you learn your... version of history from?

[NumberSix]

sorry, but almost everything you just said is flawed / already debunked / highly inconclusive / pure speculation.

i won't neg you, bro... you seem honest in a sense. but it does need to be asked-- WHERE did you learn your... version of history from?
I don't claim to be an expert in any way. The poster asked if the English are Germanic people and I just did some quick google research and came across that 5% figure. As another poster pointed out, there is quite a bit of political agenda so I fully concede that the information I took at face value may not be as reliable as I assumed.

It actually occurs to me as I'm writing this that it's possible I might not have even interpreted it correctly. Maybe it was saying that EACH Germanic group made a 5% contribution, where I took it to mean ALL Germanic groups combined made a total 5% contribution.

I'll have to do more research and be more careful to check how reliable the information is.

[gigantes]

I don't claim to be an expert in any way. The poster asked if the English are Germanic people and I just did some quick google research and came across that 5% figure. As another poster pointed out, there is quite a bit of political agenda so I fully concede that the information I took at face value may not be as reliable as I assumed.

It actually occurs to me as I'm writing this that it's possible I might not have even interpreted it correctly. Maybe it was saying that EACH Germanic group made a 5% contribution, where I took it to mean ALL Germanic groups combined made a total 5% contribution.

I'll have to do more research and be more careful to check how reliable the information is.
you're a good man, repped. I'm not some kind of expert either, but I'm used prolly too used to interesting topics turning sour here. my last response had some ISH pre-aggression built in to it, sorry mate.