Derrick Rose 2013: I will die on that court, Derick Rose 2014: life after basketball

[STATUTORY]

:roll: :roll: :facepalm :facepalm wow how far has this kid fallen

[navy]

Hmm...did he actually say that?

[STATUTORY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCBLJ1ANtGY

he literally said that :roll:

[STATUTORY]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5w7gH4YX1qa7dafo1_r1_500.gif

[ballinhun8]

He's still active this season :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:




.......so how could he have fallen?

[Pointguard]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5w7gH4YX1qa7dafo1_r1_500.gif
I see after Kobe went garbage mode you figured why Not join the heap.

[STATUTORY]

He's still active this season :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:




.......so how could he have fallen?
the statements hes made, that hunger is gone, dude feasted on too many skittles

[ballinhun8]

the statements hes made, that hunger is gone, dude feasted on too many skittles




When he's on that court playing, there aren't many players better than him or trying harder than him.


That hunger ain't gone boy.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5w7gH4YX1qa7dafo1_r1_500.gif
so forced - hes over compensating for media concerns/fan backlash about his health :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

so forced - hes over compensating for media concerns/fan backlash about his health :oldlol:
When you learn to read better you will see that this was said awhile back.

[CavaliersFTW]

When you learn to read better you will see that this was said awhile back.
I'm just giving chicago fans some needle I don't actually care when or what was said :oldlol:

[ThatCoolKid]

When you learn to read better you will see that this was said awhile back.

Hey man, he's getting up there in years. Sometimes the words just don't come out right. Just humor him.

[Pointguard]

:roll: :roll: :facepalm :facepalm wow how far has this kid fallen
Every man, wait I take that back, every Driven Man, turned family man makes that decision. Its basically called becoming wiser as a man. Its not falling off as much as it is to rising up. If you were a driven man or even a family man you would know.

With that said, he's going as hard to the rim as anybody not matter what their philosophy might be.

[Pointguard]

I'm just giving chicago fans some needle I don't actually care when or what was said :oldlol:
On my phone I don't always see who is who.

[CavaliersFTW]

On my phone I don't always see who is who.
haha all part of the fun of ISH :cheers:

[STATUTORY]

Every man, wait I take that back, every Driven Man, turned family man makes that decision. Its basically called becoming wiser as a man. Its not falling off as much as it is to rising up. If you were a driven man or even a family man you would know.

With that said, he's going as hard to the rim as anybody not matter what their philosophy might be.
you are not disagreeing with what i said, I　agree this is probably sign of maturity and foresight. But part of greatness and hunger is existing in the moment. If a player or an athlete step into his respective arena and he's concerned about how this will affect his health insurance premium decades down the line, it's over as far as him being a competitor is concerned. This does not indict him as a family man, it's probably great for him as a balanced human being to value family over basketball, but greatness requires that sociopathic dedication to winning we see in Kobe and MJ.

[Pointguard]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5w7gH4YX1qa7dafo1_r1_500.gif
If that was Kobe it would read:
"That's my life, I would die rather than pass that ball, I live to go in on missing shots. You think that record is safe around me? You think the Lakers future is safe around me. Dwight lead the league in FG% who Da fug needs that I ran him out of town..."

[STATUTORY]

If that was Kobe it would read:
"That's my life, I would die rather than pass that ball, I live to go in on missing shots. You think that record is safe around me? You think the Lakers future is safe around me. Dwight lead the league in FG% who Da fug needs that I ran him out of town..."

:coleman:

[DMAVS41]

If that was Kobe it would read:
"That's my life, I would die rather than pass that ball, I live to go in on missing shots. You think that record is safe around me? You think the Lakers future is safe around me. Dwight lead the league in FG% who Da fug needs that I ran him out of town..."

You are so mad right now...:roll:

[mehyaM24]

Every man, wait I take that back, every Driven Man, turned family man makes that decision. Its basically called becoming wiser as a man. Its not falling off as much as it is to rising up. If you were a driven man or even a family man you would know.

With that said, he's going as hard to the rim as anybody not matter what their philosophy might be.
so pretty much every player in the nba?

what rose said was idiotic. period. dude just came back from sitting out a year and change, is being paid boat loads of cash.. and yet has the gull to talk about his health 20 years from now? he needs to toughen up - as do you.

[nathanjizzle]

now if you are a kobe stan, why would you want more people posting "1-14"

[nathanjizzle]

You are so mad right now...:roll:

seriously, if rose is irrelevant, why do you come into every rose thread?
you do understand that youre the one coming into rose threads and posting about rose, not rose fans going into dirk threads (as if there any) and posting about dirk. talk about irrelevancy.

[Pointguard]

You are so mad right now...:roll: :lol
Optiions in Interpreting attitudes in retorts:

1. Jokes--- 4.SARACASM-----------------50.mad

But to an idiot one size fits all.

[Ariza4three]

Pointguard getting his shit pushed. Don't make me get his ass.

[DMAVS41]

seriously, if rose is irrelevant, why do you come into every rose thread?
you do understand that youre the one coming into rose threads and posting about rose, not rose fans going into dirk threads (as if there any) and posting about dirk. talk about irrelevancy.

I just want to see what the Rose fans will say next...it never ceases to amaze

[Cocaine80s]

I think hed rather die before going 1/14 tho

[nathanjizzle]

I just want to see what the Rose fans will say next...it never ceases to amaze

Rose played better than dirk in 2011. Thats why he won it unanimously and dirk was an after thought.

[Cocaine80s]

Rose played better than dirk in 2011. Thats why he won it unanimously and dirk was an after thought.
Dirk was fmvp in 2011

Rose shot 6% vs Lebron :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Rose played better than dirk in 2011. Thats why he won it unanimously and dirk was an after thought.

Nah...he won it because of the narrative, the Bulls defense, Lebron fatigue, and Dirk getting hurt.

I totally agree that Rose deserved MVP, but he wasn't close to the best player.

As for actually comparing Dirk and Rose in 11 as basketball players...not very close. Although Rose was young and had/has a lot to learn so it's a bit of an unfair comparison.

But removing all that and just comparing them? Please...Dirk was a far better player...especially when the games really count.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rose played better than dirk in 2011. Thats why he won it unanimously and dirk was an after thought.
Was Nash a better player than Kobe, Wade or LeBron in 2006? Terrible argument.

[nathanjizzle]

Nah...he won it because of the narrative, the Bulls defense, Lebron fatigue, and Dirk getting hurt.

I totally agree that Rose deserved MVP, but he wasn't close to the best player.

As for actually comparing Dirk and Rose in 11 as basketball players...not very close. Although Rose was young and had/has a lot to learn so it's a bit of an unfair comparison.

But removing all that and just comparing them? Please...Dirk was a far better player...especially when the games really count.

Narrative, thats what you would like tobelieve. What was the narrative btw, that he said "why not me, why cant i be mvp"? Get real idiot. You believe the dumbest shit such as monta being as good as rose, you couldnt run that by anyone idiot.

[nathanjizzle]

Was Nash a better player than Kobe, Wade or LeBron in 2006? Terrible argument.
I dont know, didnt pay attention to basketball duing that time. But whos to say he wasnt more impactful than those players? Because hes short? Because wade kobe and. Lebron are big names so they absolutely have to be the best players every year? Derrick didnt think so thats why he shitted on every body in 2011 and again it was unanimous

[DMAVS41]

Narrative, thats what you would like tobelieve. What was the narrative btw, that he said "why not me, why cant i be mvp"? Get real idiot. You believe the dumbest shit such as monta being as good as rose, you couldnt run that by anyone idiot.

The narrative is always a huge part of the MVP. Was a huge part when Dirk won MVP in 2007.

It's team success, the narrative, individual play...etc.

Not just about Rose dude.

He was not close to the best player overall that year. You couldn't run that by anyone...idiot.


Why is Rose better than Ellis again? Seems like you put Ellis in a good position on the right team with a great coach and he's about the same player. I see no real difference...

[DMAVS41]

I dont know, didnt pay attention to basketball duing that time. But whos to say he wasnt more impactful than those players? Because hes short? Because wade kobe and. Lebron are big names so they absolutely have to be the best players every year? Derrick didnt think so thats why he shitted on every body in 2011 and again it was unanimous

Anyone is to say. I am to say.

Steve Nash was absolutely not as good as some of the guys you mention. ROFL...sorry.

[STATUTORY]

I think hed rather die before going 1/14 tho
but not before a DNP doe :confusedshrug:

[nathanjizzle]

The narrative is always a huge part of the MVP. Was a huge part when Dirk won MVP in 2007.

It's team success, the narrative, individual play...etc.

Not just about Rose dude.

He was not close to the best player overall that year. You couldn't run that by anyone...idiot.

Lol, you would put individual play last wouldnt you. And as if a mvp player didnt have to do with his teams sucess. I guess the bulls were going to win 9 straight avainst the top 8 teams in the league without rose right, or perhaps rose had something to do withthat with his 28.5 points and 7 assists.

Ofcourse, if you could actually go back in time, the consensus was that rose was top 2

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I dont know, didnt pay attention to basketball duing that time. But whos to say he wasnt more impactful than those players? Because hes short? Because wade kobe and. Lebron are big names so they absolutely have to be the best players every year? Derrick didnt think so thats why he shitted on every body in 2011 and again it was unanimous
:facepalm

[SugarHill]

I dont know, didnt pay attention to basketball duing that time. But whos to say he wasnt more impactful than those players? Because hes short? Because wade kobe and. Lebron are big names so they absolutely have to be the best players every year? Derrick didnt think so thats why he shitted on every body in 2011 and again it was unanimous
:oldlol:

[nathanjizzle]

Anyone is to say. I am to say.

Steve Nash was absolutely not as good as some of the guys you mention. ROFL...sorry.

Great, your judgment doesnt matter though, you believe monta is as good as rose. What was the narrative behind nash winning mvp anyway?

[eeeeeebro]

__________________if Derrick Rose Played Football How Many Games Would He Last?

[DMAVS41]

Great, your judgment doesnt matter though, you believe monta is as good as rose. What was the narrative behind nash winning mvp anyway?

Educate yourself on Nash.

Could you tell me why Rose is a demonstrably better player than Ellis?

[DMAVS41]

Lol, you would put individual play last wouldnt you. And as if a mvp player didnt have to do with his teams sucess. I guess the bulls were going to win 9 straight avainst the top 8 teams in the league without rose right, or perhaps rose had something to do withthat with his 28.5 points and 7 assists.

Ofcourse, if you could actually go back in time, the consensus was that rose was top 2

Dude. I argued Rose for MVP all year with people. He deserved it.

Just don't tell me he was the best player in 11. He wasn't. He probably wasn't top 5.

But he deserved MVP and of course had a ton to do with the Bulls record.

You are arguing with a ghost.

But not surprising...you started watching NBA like 5 years ago.

[tpols]

Dmavs in another rose thread. :oldlol:

Like a fly to sticky tape.. You just can't help yourself.

[nathanjizzle]

Dude. I argued Rose for MVP all year with people. He deserved it.

Just don't tell me he was the best player in 11. He wasn't. He probably wasn't top 5.

But he deserved MVP and of course had a ton to do with the Bulls record.

You are arguing with a ghost.

But not surprising...you started watching NBA like 5 years ago.

Im not arguing with you, im teaching you something idiot. I dont care if you think rose deserved mvp based on your mvp criteria of a "narrative" idiot

[DMAVS41]

Im not arguing with you, im teaching you something idiot. I dont care if you think rose deserved mvp based on your mvp criteria of a "narrative" idiot

Teaching me what? You are just calling me an idiot and not backing anything up.

[Budadiiii]

Narrative, thats what you would like tobelieve. What was the narrative btw, that he said "why not me, why cant i be mvp"? Get real idiot. You believe the dumbest shit such as monta being as good as rose, you couldnt run that by anyone idiot.
Coming from the guy who said current Rose > Westbrook.

"you couldnt run that by anyone idiot"

Rose is done though, and I've been saying it since he tore his ACL. His mind is way too weak and way too dumb to recover from these injuries and actually come back a good player.

Rose was already the most cringe worthy athlete before all the injuries when you consider his autistic interviews... but now? Now after all that has transpired these last few years? Yikes mode...... calling it a train-wreck doesn't do it justice. This is a ****ing nuclear disaster.

[nathanjizzle]

Coming from the guy who said current Rose > Westbrook.

"you couldnt run that by anyone idiot"

Rose is done though, and I've been saying it since he tore his ACL. His mind is way too weak and way too dumb to recover from these injuries and actually come back a good player.

Rose was already the most cringe worthy athlete before all the injuries when you consider his autistic interviews... but now? Now after all that has transpired these last few years? Yikes mode...... calling it a train-wreck doesn't do it justice. This is a ****ing nuclear disaster.


More rose haters throwing there favorite players into the discussion. Rose is better than westbrook. Thats why you are in every rose thread hating on him trying to redeem westbrooks inferiority when compared to rose. Me im not really fased by westbrook as a rose fan, hes eccentric and makes dumb plays.

[AirFederer]

Rose taking his talents to SAT, biitch.

[Budadiiii]

More rose haters throwing there favorite players into the discussion. Rose is better than westbrook. Thats why you are in every rose thread hating on him trying to redeem westbrooks inferiority when compared to rose. Me im not really fased by westbrook as a rose fan, hes eccentric and makes dumb plays.
D-Rose iz dunn

Meanwhile, Rose can't stay on the court and is contemplating life after basketball. How do you like them skittles, jizz boy? :banana:

[Pointguard]

Pointguard getting his shit pushed. Don't make me get his ass.
What are you? a dung beetle? Is this something that's in style in your neighborhood? What, you want to be my pet dung beetle. I know that's probably a huge upgrade to what you got going on now, but in my neck of the woods we have toilets and don't have need for your services?

In your dung beetle capacity, what you can do is shovel Dmavs out this thread. And both of you can relish in living up to your qualities and abilities. :lol "ohhh, you so mad now."

[Pointguard]

but not before a DNP doe :confusedshrug:
Well, there's this other term, SNP, Should not play or should not ruin the future anymore than he already has. Dwight Howard might get a MVP this year... .

[Pointguard]

Educate yourself on Nash.

Could you tell me why Rose is a demonstrably better player than Ellis?
1. he controls the game better
2. he drives harder
3. he drives more often
4. he runs a team better
5. he's more unstoppable
6. he's a better floor general
7. he's a better passer
8. he's a better leader
9. has Better TS%
10.paces himself better in the game
11.paces himself better during the year
12.a better creator
13.a better facilitator
14.is more resourceful
15.adapts better

I got more but it will overwhelm you. I numbered them so you can follow up.

[Pointguard]

More rose haters throwing there favorite players into the discussion. Rose is better than westbrook. Thats why you are in every rose thread hating on him trying to redeem westbrooks inferiority when compared to rose. Me im not really fased by westbrook as a rose fan, hes eccentric and makes dumb plays.

Right look at them line up. If their players was worth anything wouldn't there be threads about them? Their motor and engine for Rose is waaaaay greater than their engine for their own players. People are what they get up for. They ain't fooling anybody.

[TheCalmInsanity]

1. he controls the game better
2. he drives harder
3. he drives more often
4. he runs a team better
5. he's more unstoppable
6. he's a better floor general
7. he's a better passer
8. he's a better leader
9. has Better TS%
10.paces himself better in the game
11.paces himself better during the year
12.a better creator
13.a better facilitator
14.is more resourceful
15.adapts better

I got more but it will overwhelm you. I numbered them so you can follow up.

Lol I'm just lurking with my popcorn here (not a Rose fan or a Dirk fan), but this is probably one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen... And putting the numbers in there makes it worse.

It's like when you're writing an essay for class and you repeat the same sentence over and over again with barely different words and call it a paragraph.

[STATUTORY]

Right look at them line up. If their players was worth anything wouldn't there be threads about them? Their motor and engine for Rose is waaaaay greater than their engine for their own players. People are what they get up for. They ain't fooling anybody.

:oldlol: this wasn't even a hate thread brah, I just pointed out the drastic turnaround in his stance'

i actually have nothing against rose. he's one of the guys i like watching in this league

[DMAVS41]

1. he controls the game better
2. he drives harder
3. he drives more often
4. he runs a team better
5. he's more unstoppable
6. he's a better floor general
7. he's a better passer
8. he's a better leader
9. has Better TS%
10.paces himself better in the game
11.paces himself better during the year
12.a better creator
13.a better facilitator
14.is more resourceful
15.adapts better

I got more but it will overwhelm you. I numbered them so you can follow up.

Agree with some of that...disagree with some.

I do get a good chuckle out of the mythological type talk like...."is more resourceful" and "paces himself better" and "adapts better"

About what I would expect from someone when there really is not much of a tangible difference between the two players.

FYI...Ellis led the league in drives last year. I don't think there is much room to speak of Rose as the more frequent or better driver to the basket in any real sense.

And paces himself better? Really? Ellis has played back to back 82 game seasons and only missed 8 games in the last 3 years. Rose? Not so much....it's definitely Rose that doesn't leave anything left in the tank in games or in seasons as he's always hurt.

[SugarHill]

6. he's a better floor general
7. he's a better passer
12.a better creator
13.a better facilitator

That's just padding :kobe:

[STATUTORY]

6. he's a better floor general
7. he's a better passer
12.a better creator
13.a better facilitator

That's just padding :kobe:
dude was definitely using thesaurus.com for that post :oldlol:

[PsychoBe]

Lol I'm just lurking with my popcorn here (not a Rose fan or a Dirk fan), but this is probably one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen... And putting the numbers in there makes it worse.

It's like when you're writing an essay for class and you repeat the same sentence over and over again with barely different words and call it a paragraph.

rose was top 10 in scoring and assist and lead his team to an mvp season as well as scored 44 points in the playoffs that same year :facepalm

ellis is nowhere close and it's insulting to suggest that he is.

[Pointguard]

Lol I'm just lurking with my popcorn here (not a Rose fan or a Dirk fan), but this is probably one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen... And putting the numbers in there makes it worse.

Are you capable of explaining why it is dumb. Or is that the premise you always begin and end with anyway? The numbers are so that the point of ignorance can be changed or challenged or brought to light. Its there for clarity, not ignorance. What

[Lebron23]

Brandon Roy and Derrick Rose are this generations Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway.

[Pointguard]

Agree with some of that...disagree with some.

I do get a good chuckle out of the mythological type talk like...."is more resourceful" and "paces himself better" and "adapts better"
Ellis started off good last year and I told you he was going to tire out and not only once but a couple of times. And it took only like ten games. At the end of games, two things do happen: Ellis tires and he can't turn the game around. One is resourcefulness and the other is pacing.


About what I would expect from someone when there really is not much of a tangible difference between the two players.
Why do you think Ellis doesn't get much attention at all? Give him a lot of attention and he's not a worry at all.


FYI...Ellis led the league in drives last year. I don't think there is much room to speak of Rose as the more frequent or better driver to the basket in any real sense.

Give Rose, Dirk and it wouldn't be close. Rose had more drives to the basket with teams shadowing him and focused primarily and sometimes totally on him. Do you really think they are the same?

[DMAVS41]

Ellis started off good last year and I told you he was going to tire out and not only once but a couple of times. And it took only like ten games. At the end of games, two things do happen: Ellis tires and he can't turn the game around. One is resourcefulness and the other is pacing.

Why do you think Ellis doesn't get much attention at all? Give him a lot of attention and he's not a worry at all.


Give Rose, Dirk and it wouldn't be close. Rose had more drives to the basket with teams shadowing him and focused primarily and sometimes totally on him. Do you really think they are the same?

But this isn't factual though....Ellis was our best crunch time player last year.
Meh...could make a lot of the same arguments in reverse.

Give Ellis the ultimate green light and the best defense/rebounding team behind him and he'd do all the things you say he can't.

But wears down at the end of games? Not true at all...he was one of the best clutch players last year.

Just to confirm...I looked it up. Ellis was 7th in crunch time scoring last year and did so on very respectable shooting splits of 45% fg, 55% 3, and 75% ft. He had a plus/minus of plus 64.

Now...the test. Will you admit that Ellis was good at the end of games last year?

[Pointguard]

But this isn't factual though....Ellis was our best crunch time player last year.
Meh...could make a lot of the same arguments in reverse.
So you are telling me I should expect Ellis to lead the league in flipping fourth quarter leads. Really??? The highest proportion of points in the 4th quarter in the league. Because that's the reverse.


Give Ellis the ultimate green light and the best defense/rebounding team behind him and he'd do all the things you say he can't.
What are you talking about the ultimate green light. He shot more than Rose did in a freestyle offense even in 2011. He had waaay more freedom. Rose never shot more than 20 times per game, Ellis has gone up to 22. Defense and a rebounding team would have demanded more of Ellis - not less. And teams would be more focused on him and he isn't as efficient as Rose either. Am I wrong?


But wears down at the end of games? Not true at all...he was one of the best clutch players last year. It could have changed last year as he's in his prime. But Rose didn't tire until the playoffs where he was guarding Wade AND had an offensive burden that Ellis never came close to handling.

In the playoffs, last year, Ellis was definitely a step down from Rose as a rookie in every dimension. And this is Rose's worst year by a mile in the playoffs, yet Rose was a far better rebounder, shooter, decision-maker, passer, efficiency AND CLUTCH shooting than Ellis in this year you are claiming. Not close in any of the those categories. In fact, since you are claiming facts, in what way was he better than Rookie Rose??? This is comparing a rookie to a prime player.



Just to confirm...I looked it up. Ellis was 7th in crunch time scoring last year and did so on very respectable shooting splits of 45% fg, 55% 3, and 75% ft. He had a plus/minus of plus 64.

Now...the test. Will you admit that Ellis was good at the end of games last year?
No, we are comparing him to a guy that ruled the league in taking over games in the 4th quarter. He has to be top 5 to deserve being put up against a guy that was the best at it and killing the elite while at it. That's fair, no???

[ImKobe]

Brandon Roy and Derrick Rose are this generations Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway.

Grant & Penny were healthy compared to Rose & Roy.

[LilEddyCurry]

LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Durant and Kobe were all better than Rose in 2011. Melo, Dirk and Amare are all arguable. But however Rose did deserve MVP because of regular season team record.

[jaybee682]

Back to Back major injuries will do that to a players physche. People tend to forget that the game, hell everything is more mental than physical. All the work it takes to get back on the floor becomes draining. So I can understand what he is feeling.

[ballinhun8]

Monta Ellis???


You're reaching Gino. Reaching pretty badly. No need to get into detail because the argument shouldn't even be made.

[DMAVS41]

So you are telling me I should expect Ellis to lead the league in flipping fourth quarter leads. Really??? The highest proportion of points in the 4th quarter in the league. Because that's the reverse.

What are you talking about the ultimate green light. He shot more than Rose did in a freestyle offense even in 2011. He had waaay more freedom. Rose never shot more than 20 times per game, Ellis has gone up to 22. Defense and a rebounding team would have demanded more of Ellis - not less. And teams would be more focused on him and he isn't as efficient as Rose either. Am I wrong?
It could have changed last year as he's in his prime. But Rose didn't tire until the playoffs where he was guarding Wade AND had an offensive burden that Ellis never came close to handling.

In the playoffs, last year, Ellis was definitely a step down from Rose as a rookie in every dimension. And this is Rose's worst year by a mile in the playoffs, yet Rose was a far better rebounder, shooter, decision-maker, passer, efficiency AND CLUTCH shooting than Ellis in this year you are claiming. Not close in any of the those categories. In fact, since you are claiming facts, in what way was he better than Rookie Rose??? This is comparing a rookie to a prime player.


No, we are comparing him to a guy that ruled the league in taking over games in the 4th quarter. He has to be top 5 to deserve being put up against a guy that was the best at it and killing the elite while at it. That's fair, no???


What are you talking about now?

You just got done saying Ellis does not pace himself well and has nothing left at the end of games. I respond showing you he was actually one of the best late game players last year...and you talk about more nonsense about flipping leads like it's all on one player.

Just admit you were wrong about Ellis in the clutch. He was excellent last year for the Mavs. You were wrong...just flat out wrong.

Also not sure what you are referencing about the playoffs when you say career. These guys have hardly played playoff games. Rose has played 29 and Ellis has played 22. Basically we have 2011 for Rose and 2014 for Ellis...that's it.

You are judging Ellis playing on average to poor teams without great coaching...the Ellis of the Mavs last year is a different animal. Still has a ways to go on some stuff, but I don't think you watched him play much at all with some of your comments.

My contention is that the old Ellis was just as capable...he just needed the right situation. And the Mavs are that.

Funny how you say..."if Rose had Dirk"...LOL...you are constantly saying how Dirk isn't that good...etc. Now Dirk is making Ellis? Not even I think that and I'm a Dirk fan.

What year am I claiming? I didn't know we were talking about a specific year. I'm talking just as players. I don't see any real difference...I'd much rather have Ellis on the Mavs for example. I don't want a guy that settles for around five 3's a game and bumps it up to 6 when the going gets tough in the playoffs....

Just don't like that style of guard. I don't think that would fit all that well with what we have.

In other situations Rose is a better fit in my opinion.

But factor in what I've seen from 2011 to present? Shit...give me Ellis for sure over that stretch. Hate to break it to you...but part of Rose the player is his inability to stay on the court. And just as a fan as well...I don't want my 20 million dollar a year player talking like playing basketball is akin to going to war.

[tpols]

Monta Ellis last year on a very good offensive team, with Dirk commanding attention like he always does,especially in the clutch, put up a crunchtime line of:

40/6/6 45FG
+64
Assisted on 33% of his baskets


Derrick Rose in 2011 put up a line of:

48/10/10 40FG
+73
Assisted on 11% of his baskets


This is while having less distraction than monta and having the whole defense coming at him. And D-Rose creating for himself and others literally 3X more than Monta Ellis..

Its why its so silly to compare numbers across vastly different situations. Monta Ellis put up worse clutch stats and overall numbers than 2011 Rose while being in an environment that allowed for easier production. That alone should tell you how much more ability rose has than ellis.

[DMAVS41]

Monta Ellis last year on a very good offensive team, with Dirk commanding attention like he always does,especially in the clutch, put up a crunchtime line of:

40/6/6 45FG
+64
Assisted on 33% of his baskets


Derrick Rose in 2011 put up a line of:

48/10/10 40FG
+73
Assisted on 11% of his baskets


This is while having less distraction than monta and having the whole defense coming at him. And D-Rose creating for himself and others literally 3X more than Monta Ellis..

Its why its so silly to compare numbers across vastly different situations. Monta Ellis put up worse clutch stats and overall numbers than 2011 Rose while being in an environment that allowed for easier production. That alone should tell you how much more ability rose has than ellis.


You left out some important stuff. For starters...I never said Ellis in 14 was better than Rose in 11 in crunch time.

All I said was that Ellis did not wear down and play poorly in crunch time like PG claimed.

So that is the first important distinction.

You also left out the fact that Rose took 37 shots to score his 48 points while Ellis took 27 shots to score his 41 points (yes tpols...if you are going to round...40.5 rounds to 41). Tpols trying to change numbers as usual...shocking.

You left out Rose shooting 20% from the 3 point line and Ellis shooting 55% from the 3 point line.

Rose shot better from the ft line, but overall Ellis was the more efficient scorer.

You also left out Rose averaging 3 more turnovers in crunch time as well per 48 minutes...all the above stats are per 48 if you are getting them from 82games.com...which I think you are.

So congrats...Rose took 10 more shots...and 2 more ft's to score 7 more points...while also turning it over 3 more times.

Yea...uhhhh...that just isn't better.

As for Dirk...actually Dirk was kind of shit last year in crunch time. He wore down at the end of games and wasn't close to his normal self...he shot 39% from the field and 21% from 3 in crunch time last year. Yes...he absolutely drew attention, but he wasn't dominating teams like he used to. So acting like it was the same old Dirk is misleading.

So...you need to paint the entire picture first. Like just being able to comprehend the actual data. The fact that you think scoring 7 more points while taking 10 more shots, 2 more ft's, and turning it over 3 more times per 48 minutes...is better...well...even for you is surprising.

Seems like it makes sense. You'd expect that out of roughly similar players. You put one in a better offensive system with more offensive help and watch his efficiency go up and the need for him to score all the points go down. You put Rose on the 14 Mavs and he's not getting up 37 shots...you realize this...right? He's getting up 27 to 30 shots and probably playing similarly to Ellis. I'd imagine he'd have a few more boards and maybe an extra assist (although the ball wouldn't be in his hands nearly as much) and he'd probably turn it over more as well.

This is my point...you guys are creating myth and legend about Rose in 2011. He had a really good regular season, but this was not some all time great season. And then it crumbled in the playoffs with the first good team he played. Really good season and all, but that's it.

You say it's easier, but it doesn't always work like that. The 14 Mavs had a better offense than Ellis has ever really played on, but he wasn't the most efficient. Ellis was actually more efficient as a scorer in 2011...when he averaged 5 more points per game.

Doesn't always work like that. You guys discount how good the fit was on that Bulls team for Rose.

[tpols]

And why are you not factoring in their all around games.. youre quick to point out a difference in efficiencies.. and in turnovers.. yet completely ignore that Rose is a 10 rpg/10apg player while Monta is only 6/6. Big difference there. Better passing, rebounding and defending seems to matter in basketball.

You also didnt address the fact that Ellis was being assisted on three times as many of his field goals..

And the defense had to worry about other players granting ellis much more single coverage than rose saw..

But you ignore all context and try to compare their efficiencies in a vacuum.


Monta isnt even that far off rose as a scorer.. hes pretty far off in playmaking/passing ability, and the ability to command defensive attention leaving him as the noticeably worse offensive player. Monta is also not known for being a defensive player while rose is at worst average, posting better d-ratings than monta.. and being given duties to cover stars in the playoffs on an elite defensive team while ellis has never played as a main piece for any elite defense.. him and dirk led a 22nd ranked one last year.:lol


Fun fact. I know you love your advanced stats. Monta Ellis has never had a PER above 20. Rose is on pace for 3 times right now while playing half the seasons. Hmmm...

[DMAVS41]

And why are you not factoring in their all around games.. youre quick to point out a difference in efficiencies.. and in turnovers.. yet completely ignore that Rose is a 10 rpg/10apg player while Monta is only 6/6. Big difference there. Better passing, rebounding and defending seems to matter in basketball.

You also didnt address the fact that Ellis was being assisted on three times as many of his field goals..

And the defense had to worry about other players granting ellis much more single coverage than rose saw..

But you ignore all context and try to compare their efficiencies in a vacuum.


Monta isnt even that far off rose as a scorer.. hes pretty far off in playmaking/passing ability, and the ability to command defensive attention leaving him as the noticeably worse offensive player. Monta is also not known for being a defensive player while rose is at worst average, posting better d-ratings than monta.. and being given duties to cover stars in the playoffs on an elite defensive team while ellis has never played as a main piece for any elite defense.. him and dirk led a 22nd ranked one last year.:lol


Fun fact. I know you love your advanced stats. Monta Ellis has never had a PER above 20. Rose is on pace for 3 times right now while playing half the seasons. Hmmm...

I'm not ignoring it all...I even mentioned in my post what I thought their numbers would be.

You are the one that posted the numbers.

Sorry...give me 41/6/6 while getting the 41 on 11 less possessions and turning it over 3 less teams.

Jesus...Rose essentially uses up 14 more possessions to score 7 more points.

That is far more important than rebounding/assists there...especially when Rose has the ball in his hands way more often. Of course Monta is assisted more...he actually gives up the ****ing ball at times. Rose doesn't do this...

Rose has also never been the main piece of an elite defense. See...this is just nonsense. You put steve nash on that 11 Bulls team in place of Rose and they are still an elite defense.

You continue to judge Monta like the narrative about him is set in stone and it's reality. His playmaking is actually stellar since he's been in Dallas. You clearly don't watch any Mavs games consistently or you wouldn't say this crap. Once again...put a player in the right situation and things change.

I think where we really disagree is on the strength of the 11 Bulls....they get supremely under-rated here imo. They just were not nearly as bad of an offensive supporting cast as is claimed.

[tpols]

I'm not ignoring it all...I even mentioned in my post what I thought their numbers would be.

You are the one that posted the numbers.

Sorry...give me 41/6/6 while getting the 41 on 11 less possessions and turning it over 3 less teams.

Jesus...Rose essentially uses up 14 more possessions to score 7 more points.

That is far more important than rebounding/assists there...especially when Rose has the ball in his hands way more often. Of course Monta is assisted more...he actually gives up the ****ing ball at times. Rose doesn't do this...

Rose has also never been the main piece of an elite defense. See...this is just nonsense. You put steve nash on that 11 Bulls team in place of Rose and they are still an elite defense.

You continue to judge Monta like the narrative about him is set in stone and it's reality. His playmaking is actually stellar since he's been in Dallas. You clearly don't watch any Mavs games consistently or you wouldn't say this crap. Once again...put a player in the right situation and things change.

I think where we really disagree is on the strength of the 11 Bulls....they get supremely under-rated here imo. They just were not nearly as bad of an offensive supporting cast as is claimed.

Youve officially gone off the deep end. :lol


The funny thing is.. in what you dub Rose's horrendous 2011 playoff run, he had a PER of 22.5. All star-fringe superstar level. While facing more attention and top notch defensive teams to lower his efficiencies. Yet he gets ripped for that run non-stop by haters such as yourself.


Monta.. on the other hand.. saw a slumping spurs team in their worst playoff series of the year and still posted only a 15 PER. :eek: ..literal role player level. And everyone was in agreement that he looked pretty solid and would be great for dallas going forward.

I guess thats what expectations will do.

[aj1987]

Do people still consider Rose to be a good defender? :oldlol:

[penny4president]

Brandon Roy and Derrick Rose are this generations Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway.

Grant Hill and Penny, never won the MVP:lol

[Pointguard]

What are you talking about now?

You just got done saying Ellis does not pace himself well and has nothing left at the end of games. I respond showing you he was actually one of the best late game players last year...and you talk about more nonsense about flipping leads like it's all on one player.
One.
He doesn't pace himself like Rose. We are comparing the two. I was never talking about Ellis in isolation. NEVER EVER. Ellis slowed down the majority of his career. I said it maybe different in his prime. Com'on keep up.

Flipping leads offensively was incredibly lopsided on Rose much more than any other player. Rose was accountable for more percentage of his teams points than any player that year and in the fourth quarter it was definitely increased as he scored most of his points in the fourth. If we are talking about endurance this is really a big issue. Are you insane?



Just admit you were wrong about Ellis in the clutch. He was excellent last year for the Mavs. You were wrong...just flat out wrong.

We are comparing him to a guy that flipped 20 games in the fourth quarter, that attacked like no other player in the league.


Also not sure what you are referencing about the playoffs when you say career. These guys have hardly played playoff games. Rose has played 29 and Ellis has played 22. Basically we have 2011 for Rose and 2014 for Ellis...that's it.
Just in case you get confused again this is the post that started everything and keeps everything in context here.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10738419&postcount=41
"Could you tell me why Rose is a demonstrably better player than Ellis?"
All of this is relevant. No more wiggling out of this.

Rose vs Ellis in the playoffs.
Ellis has a much older slant than Rose in the playoffs, having played half of 22 games in his prime. And one series at 20. Rose about 28 games before 23 and 1 game at 23.

Monta Ellis 13ppg, 2.4 assist, 2.5 rebs, 1.3 steals, 02 blocks, 409fg%,485TS%, PER12.1

D Rose..... 25ppg, 7.3 assist, 4.8 rebs, 1.1 steals, 06 blocks, 425fg%,503TS%, PER19.6

In what universe is this equal?

In all of the key areas Rose is close to doubling his output. And this is with Ellis playing half of his games in his prime. So this isn't demonstrably better to you. And he was never as clutch as Rose was in his rookie year. His playoffs last year are not even comparable to Rose's rookie year.



You are judging Ellis playing on average to poor teams without great coaching...the Ellis of the Mavs last year is a different animal. Still has a ways to go on some stuff, but I don't think you watched him play much at all with some of your comments.
Well looked who learned a little something in our previous arguments. Nonetheless, Rookie Rose won two games on his back and hit 7 very clutch shots in the last minute of regulation and overtimes. Compare Ellis playoff play to rookie Rose much less when he was given leadership at 22 years old.


My contention is that the old Ellis was just as capable...he just needed the right situation. And the Mavs are that.

Funny how you say..."if Rose had Dirk"...LOL...you are constantly saying how Dirk isn't that good...etc. Now Dirk is making Ellis? Not even I think that and I'm a Dirk fan.
At the very least he creates space to make driving easy. Defenses were cued on Dirk. If they que in on Monta Ellis just two years ago, he got a bit wild.


What year am I claiming? I didn't know we were talking about a specific year. I'm talking just as players. I don't see any real difference...I'd much rather have Ellis on the Mavs for example. I don't want a guy that settles for around five 3's a game and bumps it up to 6 when the going gets tough in the playoffs....
You don't see any real difference in them as players and you thought Houston had an equal offense to SA last year IN THE PLAYOFFS. Its getting real bad dude.

Rose is complete player that's a leader, controls tempo, gets assist, twice as many rebounds, is more efficient, scores more and just does everything better except steals. That's a whole lot to miss.


Just don't like that style of guard. I don't think that would fit all that well with what we have.

In other situations Rose is a better fit in my opinion.
Rose nearly does everything better. Not somethings, the vast majority of things. And he's very coachable and I see Ellis has gotten better at that.


But factor in what I've seen from 2011 to present? Shit...give me Ellis for sure over that stretch. Hate to break it to you...but part of Rose the player is his inability to stay on the court. And just as a fan as well...I don't want my 20 million dollar a year player talking like playing basketball is akin to going to war.
Dude, its obvious we are comparing players on the court, and not off of it. Its a cop out to go in another direction as you were obviously comparing them as players - not nonplayers and has said as much one paragraph up. Don't go the punk route.