Who do you respect more.. Kobe or Lance Armstrong?

[Budadiiii]

Title.

[riseagainst]

Armstrong is a fake. Busted for steroids. He's a terrible role model for any sport. Was the GOAT but now the WOAT cus lies and deceit.
Kobe, on the other hand, is still da GOAT even if he raped a girl.

[Dragic4Life]

Lance Armstrong didn't need prime Shaq so him.

[Budadiiii]

Lance Armstrong didn't need prime Shaq so him.
Word.

Just needed blood transfusions and EPO.

I still respect Lance as a competitor though. Dude is one tough cookie. Still one of the greatest athletes ever IMO.... blood doping or not. Practically everyone was doing it anyway, he just did it better and wanted it more. True sociopath.

[AirFederer]

Kobe.

Easy one.

[BasedTom]

One is a lying, cheating, egocentric fraud, and the other has 1 testicle.

[moaz]

Thanks Jeff for the Ignore function

[kurple]

Armstrong is a fake. Busted for steroids. He's a terrible role model for any sport. Was the GOAT but now the WOAT cus lies and deceit.
Kobe, on the other hand, is still da GOAT even if he raped a girl.
like 80% of the best syclists in the world aint using PED's

[Kblaze8855]

In 1998 8 of the top 10 in the tour de France are now tied to doping.

In 99(Lances first win) its 7 of 10.

2000 its 9 of 10

2001 8 of 10

2002 8 of 10

2003 8 of 10

2004 8 of 10

2005 9 of 10

And the one "clean" guy in 2005?

Hes a client of this guy who gave Lance some of the drugs:



Michele Ferrari (born 26 March 1953) is an Italian physician, cycling coach and author. On 10 July 2012 the United States Anti-Doping Agency issued Ferrari a lifetime sports ban for numerous anti-doping violations including possession, trafficking, administration and assisting doping.[1]


So hes not directly known to be on drugs but...cmon.

I consider it cheating when you have an unfair advantage over the people you play with.

If all the other top guys are doing the same thing its not so much cheating to me...

Not sure what to call it....but if the ENTIRE TOP 10...is doing the same thing?

Maybe some low level guys were clean. But its a BS sport really. Not because of the cheating so muh as the people involved with it acting like the people caught cheating are especially vile.

I dont know shit about cycling and I know most of the best have been on drugs since the 50s. The in sport critics have to know the same.

They are just talking shit in public to put the sport in a better light.

[Marchesk]

I dont know shit about cycling and I know most of the best have been on drugs since the 50s. The in sport critics have to know the same.

From what I've heard on the radio or read online, it sounds like Lance was a bad dude because he would go out of his way to destroy people's careers if they crossed him or threatened to expose him. If someone would go to the media to accuse him, he would respond by going on radio shows proclaming his innocence and denouncing his detractors.

It's one thing to cheat in a sport filled with cheaters. It's another thing to lie so boldly, deceiving people into thinking your this great humanitarian, and going after people who threaten your image. That's the real bad part about Lance. Despite all the good he did with his Live Strong.

[noob cake]

Everyone cheats in Cycling. Armstrong was just too successful to hide all the cheating.

Even on the coattails of two hall of famers, Kobe still can't break top 10 status. Also rape + chucking.

[Nash]

http://vimeo.com/89723547

you're welcome

[Budadiiii]

From what I've heard on the radio or read online, it sounds like Lance was a bad dude because he would go out of his way to destroy people's careers if they crossed him or threatened to expose him. If someone would go to the media to accuse him, he would respond by going on radio shows proclaming his innocence and denouncing his detractors.

It's one thing to cheat in a sport filled with cheaters. It's another thing to lie so boldly, deceiving people into thinking your this great humanitarian, and going after people who threaten your image. That's the real bad part about Lance. Despite all the good he did with his Live Strong.
And livestrong is a big reason for why he was so defensive. He had the trust of millions of people worldwide and was honestly a legit hero to the cancer community. I'm not condoning what he did, but I get it.

And in his mind, he didn't cheat. It was physically impossible to win the race without "cheating"

To work that hard and suffer like he did only to be shunned as a fraud is kinda wack to me...

He won those races, regardless of what the record books say.

[Marchesk]

To work that hard and suffer like he did only to be shunned as a fraud is kinda wack to me...

He won those races, regardless of what the record books say.

He won those races, but he won them cheating. Doesn't matter if everyone else was doing it. He boldly lied about being clean, got caught, and paid the price. Cylcing is a very dirty sport, and it needed to be cleaned up. It's not fair that anyone who has aspirations has to cheat to compete (put shit in their bodies). And that filters down to younger cyclists.

It's one thing if Lance just cheated like everyone else and said nothing. Then it would be like, oh well, he was like everyone else in the sport, but got caught. And it is against the rules. Just like in Track & Field when the occasional star gets busted there and is banned or has their medal(s) and record(s) stripped (Ben Johnson anyone).

But the backlash is over what he did to protect his image, not that he simply cheated like lots of others have done.

[penny4president]

no brainer, black mamba:rockon:

[Budadiiii]

He won those races, but he won them cheating. Doesn't matter if everyone else was doing it. He boldly lied about being clean, got caught, and paid the price. Cylcing is a very dirty sport, and it needed to be cleaned up. It's not fair that anyone who has aspirations has to cheat to compete (put shit in their bodies). And that filters down to younger cyclists.

It's one thing if Lance just cheated like everyone else and said nothing. Then it would be like, oh well, he was like everyone else in the sport, but got caught. And it is against the rules. Just like in Track & Field when the occasional star gets busted there and is banned or has their medal(s) and record(s) stripped (Ben Johnson anyone).

But the backlash is over what he did to protect his image, not that he simply cheated like lots of others have done.
He's a guy out to get his. But no murderer or dare I say, rapist.

And there really isn't a comparable situation to his in the history of sports. His image was beyond sports. He was defending himself to uphold the livestrong empire. To uphold his reputation as a hero. Not just as simple as defending himself as an athlete/competitor.. insanely precarious situation to be in. Shit happened way too fast and the dude found himself in a situation he didn't know how to handle except lie his way out of it. Which he happened to be very good at... all he knows is winning. He thought he could "win" at lying too.

How could he not lie? It's just that the situation was so big, it really magnified his lies and painted him as the manipulative sociopath that he is. Which is fine.... at least he isn't a shitty father

[supercybergeek]

Depends on what is a worst crime, taking performance enhancing drugs or rape :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

He won those races, but he won them cheating. Doesn't matter if everyone else was doing it.

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.

[Marchesk]

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.

It's never been an acceptable excuse to do something just because everyone else is doing it. Try that next time a cop pulls you over (well officer, everyone else was going over the speed limit).

Lance broke the rules and paid the price. So have others. It's cheating, even if everyone else is cheating. If it wasn't, then why do they have to be sneaky about it? Why did Lance feel the need to lie?

Anyway, I only really care because Lance and many of his vocal supporters were so outspoken about how he was clean. Now that the whole world knows this is a lie, it's supposed to not be a big deal. Then why proclaim his innocence the whole time?

And as I stated from what I've heard and read, he not only lied, he went out of his way to ruin people. That's not acceptable. That makes him a bad person.

[iTare]

Rape is overrated.

[Trollsmasher]

Shaq > EPO

Armstrong also did not rape anyone

You could argue that Kobe got more balls though

[Kblaze8855]

Im talking competition not public perception, not losing endorsements, and not the law.

How do 30 people I know are doing the same thing look at me and call me a cheater?

This isnt a speeding ticket.

Its me...them...same drugs. Same mountain to climb.

Him lying about it to save face to an ignorant populace and keep money coming in has nothing to do with an unfair in sport advantage...which you know is the only thing im talking about.

[riseagainst]

You could argue that Kobe got more balls though

:lol
quite literally

[Marchesk]

Its me...them...same drugs. Same mountain to climb..

They're all cheating. So if they get caught, they pay the price for cheating. Simple as that. Lance won those races, but he also got caught. Same goes for anyone else. I understand the motivation for cheating like everyone else in that sport. I also understand why some people want it cleaned up. So they either legalize PEDs for cycling, or they crack down. They decided to crack down. Fact of the matter is that officially, PEDs are not acceptable in sports. Yeah, they're a bigger deal in some (baseball, track, cycling) than others (basketball, football). But they're not permitted. So if you get caught, you pay whatever penalty that sport has decided on. And you suffer the public backlash. That's the risk you take.

[Kblaze8855]

May be cheating a rule book....they arent cheating eachother....and if you dont gain an unfair advantage its just outsiders passing judgement.

The reason I wouldnt want to cheat is mostly because you cant really be proud of a victory you had an unfair advantage in.

When the field is level...its fair.

You can call it fair cheating if you like....but that kinda defeats the purpose of the word.

We dont need to go all "Look it up!" and start trading definitions....but cheating is pretty much defined by that unfair advantage.

Once thats out...we need a new word.

[Budadiiii]

They're all cheating. So if they get caught, they pay the price for cheating. Simple as that. Lance won those races, but he also got caught. Same goes for anyone else.
Technically, you're correct. But we can all sit here and say Lance is one of the greatest athletes ever, if not, THE best.

He's the MJ of cycling. Pristine physical gifts + insane drive to be the best + that polarizing aura that sucks you in.

The guy literally has a huge heart. Three times bigger than the average person. That is ****ing insane.

[iamgine]

LMAO you guys are talking about two completely different things.

Kblaze was saying if everyone cheated the same way, then Lance had beaten them fair and square since his cheating provided no advantage over other people.

Marchesk was saying anyone caught cheating should be punished.

[Kblaze8855]

Technically, you're correct.

Im not even sure of that really.

If cheating is to:


act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

Wouldnt that require the cheater to be doing something others arent?

If not....where is the advantage gained?

We would have to assume that some of the racers are clean.....ive heard from people in the sport being interviewed...that nobody they knew was clean.

It would only be cheating the people who are clean. And in that sport it seems like the only "clean" people are guys who didnt get caught yet.

[iamgine]

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.
Although...cheating is really hard to quantify.

Not everyone cheating gets the same benefit.

If two person is cheating by given the answers to a test, the one with better memorization will get better score, even though the other person was smarter and may have scored higher had they both not given the answers.

I believe this principle also apply to the bodies and medicines. Two people drinking Red Bull, one is energized and focused, the other is energized but got a slight headache. Same Red Bull, different effect.

Then there's the issue of if Lance cheated harder. If he brought two big ass brass knuckles while his opponent only bring one small brass knuckles, that's a problem even though they're both cheating.

And from what I read, Lance always brought two big ass brass knuckles.

[Budadiiii]

Im not even sure of that really.

If cheating is to:



Wouldnt that require the cheater to be doing something others arent?

If not....where is the advantage gained?

We would have to assume that some of the racers are clean.....ive heard from people in the sport being interviewed...that nobody they knew was clean.

It would only be cheating the people who are clean. And in that sport it seems like the only "clean" people are guys who didnt get caught yet.
It's just semantics. I don't think of him as a cheat the same way you don't. But I refuse to believe EVERY single cyclist was doing what Lance was doing, to the extent that he was doing it, so "technically" he is a cheat.

Pretty sure he was doing it all... EPO, blood doping, tesosterone, HGH, Cortisone, etc....

[Kblaze8855]

Thats the big brass knuckles vs small brass knuckles thing there.

Not sure what to make of it. If two people inject illegal PEDs....am I calling the one with better PEDs a super cheater?

Id say once you go down that path you are all equals.

The only people being cheated to me are the clean guys....assuming of course that they exist. Which the more I look into it...seems almost naive.

[Gr]

Jan Ulrich would've been the best natural bicyclist. It's a shame he had to do some of it to be able to compete.

[iamgine]

If you call em equal then you call all cheating equal though...when it's not.

using HGH in boxing recovery is not the same as padding your hand with concrete in a boxing match.

[dunksby]

I dunno much about cycling still the distances these athletes have to cover is just insane, I might be wrong but it seems to me the way cycling competitions are designed it doesn't leave much room for a an athlete to do it without the help of PEDs.

[Budadiiii]

If you're gonna cheat, might as well go all in.

That's another fascinating thing about the whole Lance thing. There was a competition off the track that no outsider had any idea about at the time. I almost look at drug use as another aspect of the sport at the time.. an aspect you had to be dedicated to or you couldn't make it. Lance's stop at nothing attitude is admittedly a big turn on to me. I feel like he outsmarted everyone else more than anything. Of course he was a freak specimen, but he really maximized his potential with that state of the art training program with Dr. Ferrari

[dunksby]

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.
Well if you have a Katana and the other guy has brass knuckles it does give you unfair advantage although both of you are cheating.

[Marchesk]

Let's say you're a student and it's really important for you to be valedictorian. Maybe it will get you into a really prestigious university. But the other good students are cheating. So you cheat and perhaps even take it a step beyond what they're doing. You finish first in your class.

But you get found out. So does the Principle or Dean accept your excuse that everyone else who mattered was doing it? No. You're going to get expelled. And if any of the other cheaters were caught, the same thing goes.

Now in the context of cycling, if you don't want to call it cheating, then we can just say that Lance was breaking the rules. He, and plenty of others, were willing to take that risk to win. Fine, then. But if you can accept Lance winning by breaking rules, then you can accept him suffering the punishment the Cycling officials handed out for getting caught. You don't get one without the other.

You choose to break the rules, then you have to be willing to accept whatever punishment if you get caught.

[Marchesk]

I dunno much about cycling still the distances these athletes have to cover is just insane, I might be wrong but it seems to me the way cycling competitions are designed it doesn't leave much room for a an athlete to do it without the help of PEDs.

They could do it without PEDs, just not as fast. There was a time in cycling before PEDs were widely used. Really though, it's up to the sport to determine whether that's an acceptable thing to do. If it is, then legalize it. If not, you crack down hard. Either way, it has to be a level playing field, not one where the competition is based on who's the best at breaking the rules.

[Kblaze8855]

Who said anything about the right to punish him or if hypocritical officials will punish the guy when he gets caught?

Nobody thinks they dont have a right to do whatever they do...

The issue is competition. Cheating as it relates to creating an unfair advantage. That would seem to be necessary to even meet the definition.

I never said everyone doing it means you wont be punished. I said if everyone is doing it...it isnt cheating any of them.

Your school and speeding example have nothing to do with it...because the issue never was....if Lance can or will be punished.

The issue I brought up is...can you cheat a cheater. And really....not sure how you can.

[Kblaze8855]

I was just reading about a guy named Choppy Warburton. Dudes have been doping in cycling since at least the 1870s.

Guys back then were mixing cocaine, caffeine, and rat poison into pre race drinks.

It wasnt illegal at the time but...it was doping.

[dunksby]

They could do it without PEDs, just not as fast. There was a time in cycling before PEDs were widely used. Really though, it's up to the sport to determine whether that's an acceptable thing to do. If it is, then legalize it. If not, you crack down hard. Either way, it has to be a level playing field, not one where the competition is based on who's the best at breaking the rules.
Cycling about 3700 KM in 21 days is just too much IMO.

[tpols]

I was just reading about a guy named Choppy Warburton. Dudes have been doping in cycling since at least the 1870s.

Guys back then were mixing cocaine, caffeine, and rat poison into pre race drinks.

It wasnt illegal at the time but...it was doping.

That guy was a legit scumbag though.. Drugging his cyclists and they all died before 40.:wtf:

Nowadays athletes like Lance are in a lab with scientists and doctors getting way more advanced treatment.. Better monitoring.. Safer. I don't really care what they take.

[AirFederer]

One thing: imho all (American) sports are drug infested. So easy to beat the few tests and so much to gain. As Rose said, doping in the league is rampant.
have no illusions :no:

[chocolatethunder]

[QUOTE=Gr

[chocolatethunder]

One thing: imho all (American) sports are drug infested. So easy to beat the few tests and so much to gain. As Rose said, doping in the league is rampant.
have no illusions :no:
Let's get it straight, PED use is rampant in all sports in all countries. A player in the ACB was busted for doping last year. In distance running runners are getting caught all the time. Sprinters are too. Cycling, football (american and otherwise), you name it.

The fact of the matter is that people are always looking for an edge and always will be because they are competitors are there are millions of dollars at stake. PED use is rampant in the NBA and everywhere else and how can you blame them? I'd be using too if that's what was standing between me and millions of dollars. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them human.

What does make them bad people is when guys like Armstrong and Ullrich go on the offensive and try to destroy people who are outing them as cheaters. There is a risk that comes along with doing something illegal/against the rules and you have to be willing to assume that risk and all the bad that comes along with it. Armstrong (and Ullruch to a degree) isn't a bad guy because he cheated, he's a bad guy because he ruined people's lives (and this is well documented) who tried to expose him and then he would talk about all the good he had done for cancer any time he was cornered. The irony of it all is that Lance did very little for cancer. Livestrong didn't spend money on cancer research, they spent money on their brand and "cancer awareness". It was just all a PR machine for Lance. I don't feel bad for him at all and while he's started to apologize and admit his lies, he still has a long way to go in proving himself a reformed guy.

Everyone cheats in sports whether it's scuffing a baseball or stealing signs or recording team's practices or using PEDs or whatever. That's not going to stop and that's not really a problem because everyone is doing it. Who cares that cycling is dirty? They are literally all on dope, so the playing field is even. The same goes for all sports.

[chocolatethunder]

Thats the big brass knuckles vs small brass knuckles thing there.

Not sure what to make of it. If two people inject illegal PEDs....am I calling the one with better PEDs a super cheater?

Id say once you go down that path you are all equals.

The only people being cheated to me are the clean guys....assuming of course that they exist. Which the more I look into it...seems almost naive.

It's is of course naive and everyone is a victim of that naivet