Thoughts on this Top 50 all time?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Dirk Nowitzki
17. Karl Malone
18. David Robinson
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley
21. Bob Pettit
22. Patrick Ewing
23. Dwyane Wade
24. George Mikan
25. Steve Nash
26. John Stockton
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Walt Frazier
29. Rick Barry
30. John Havlicek
31. Chris Paul
32. Clyde Drexler
33. Elgin Baylor
34. Jason Kidd
35. Artis Gilmore
36. Kevin Durant
37. Gary Payton
38. George Gervin
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Reggie Miller
41. Paul Pierce
42. Alonzo Mourning
43. Dwight Howard
44. Kevin McHale
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Ray Allen
47. Willis Reed
48. Tracy McGrady
49. Dikembe Mutombo
50. Robert Parish

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Bump. It's not my list it's from realgm. It's pretty good IMO.

[riseagainst]

terrible list

[russwest0]

Karl Malone and Kobe are too low and LeBron is too high.

[Deuce Bigalow]

That list explains itself

[Jlamb47]

oscar and Kg has no case over kobe wtf
Lebron at 7???
Bill and Wilt too high imo

[MP.Trey]

You'll never be able to find a top 50 without criticism but there are a couple glaring issues such as LeBron being considerably higher than Kobe, Willis Reed being way too low, KG being way way way too high. Elgin Baylor being disrespectfully low, Nash/Durant/Howard are too high, etc.

Also lol @ Dikembe being top 50. If you're gonna have Dwight & Dikembe and not Thurmond, something is wrong.

[Genaro]

Duncan, KG and Lebron are too high. Kobe belongs in the top 10.
Larry and Magic are too low. A lot of guys have no business being there.

[Lebronxrings]

kobe and duncan too high. Lebron too low.


Also whats durant doing in a top 50 list? :biggums:

[Mr. Jabbar]

i support ish giving room for humor lists :applause:

[L.Kizzle]

T-Mac at 48. Not bad.

[G0ATbe]

Horrible list.

[L.Kizzle]

List is really bad, to be honest. Some things that jump right out at me:

-Chris Paul about ten spots ahead of Isiah Thomas. CP3 is like a poor mans Zeke, without the titles and yet he's ahead.
Point guard ahead of Isiah Thomas:
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Chris Paul
Walt Frazier
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Rings between those gentleman (minus Walt Frazier), 2 as Gary Payton and Jason Kidd received theirs ten years past their peak.
-Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing and Barkley about 15 spots ahead of Elgin Baylor, yet all four are ringless.
-Jerry West 20 spots ahead of Elgin Baylor
-Rick Barry and John Havlicek ahead of Elgin Baylor
-ELGIN BAYLOR AT 33!!
-Artis Gilmore ten spots ahead of Willis Reed

[SouBeachTalents]

Too high: Garnett, Robinson, Ewing, Nash, CP3, and Drexler
Too low: Moses, Barkley, Havlicek, Baylor, Isiah, and Reed
No business on the list: Gilmore, Mourning, McGrady, and Mutombo
Missing: Cousy and Hayes

[bizil]

My top ten for all time for sure are:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russ
Magic
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
Shaq
Lebron

From there I think these 40 would round it out (no particular order)

11 Big O
12 Hakeem
13 Dr. J
14.Hondo
15.West
16.Dirk
17.KG
18.Barry
19.Barkley
20.Baylor
21. Moses
22. Mailman
23. Isiah
24. Stockton
25. Cousy
26. Wade
27. Admiral
28. AI
29. Nique
30. McAdoo
31. Drexler
32. Pippen
33. Gervin
34. Pettit
35. Kidd
36. Tiny
37. Frazier
38. Hayes
39. Mikan
40. Ewing

I wanted Nash on the list so bad as a two time MVP. But I had to have a guy like Tiny on the list ahead of him. Tiny was so far ahead of his time and revolutionized his position. But if one were to put Nash on there ahead of him, I wouldn't complain. It also hurt me not to include Pistol Pete or Monroe as well.

[SouBeachTalents]

My top ten for all time for sure are:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russ
Magic
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
Shaq
Lebron

From there I think these 40 would round it out (no particular order)

11 Big O
12 Hakeem
13 Dr. J
14.Hondo
15.West
16.Dirk
17.KG
18.Barry
19.Barkley
20.Baylor
21. Moses
22. Mailman
23. Isiah
24. Stockton
25. Cousy
26. Wade
27. Admiral
28. AI
29. Nique
30. McAdoo
31. Drexler
32. Pippen
33. Gervin
34. Pettit
35. Kidd
36. Tiny
37. Frazier
38. Hayes
39. Mikan
40. Ewing

No Reed?

[ImKobe]

the disrespect for Wade & Moses :kobe:

Russell being 3rd :kobe:

Otherwise the list seems to be stats over accolades, but putting Bill Russell 3rd on that list is ridiculous, being that most people have zero knowledge of his game on that forum. Clearly gets the benefit of the doubt though he played on the most stacked team of his era in a much smaller/less competitive league.

I like the overall complexion of that list, but IMO it lacks balance between accolades and production. A guy with 5 rings & 2 FMVPs with a career 28/5/5 average as a starter should be ranked ahead of a big man that only has one ring (on arguably the most stacked team of that decade).

And Nash is ranked ridiculously high. He's not better than Kevin Johnson or Jason Kidd or John stockton, cmon...

And Isiah Thomas being ranked that low? Are you kidding me?

[SouBeachTalents]

the disrespect for Wade & Moses :kobe:

Russell being 3rd :kobe:

Otherwise the list seems to be stats over accolades, but putting Bill Russell 3rd on that list is ridiculous, being that most people have zero knowledge of his game on that forum. Clearly gets the benefit of the doubt though he played on the most stacked team of his era in a much smaller/less competitive league.

I like the overall complexion of that list, but IMO it lacks balance between accolades and production. A guy with 5 rings & 2 FMVPs with a career 28/5/5 average as a starter should be ranked ahead of a big man that only has one ring (on arguably the most stacked team of that decade).

And Nash is ranked ridiculously high. He's not better than Kevin Johnson or Jason Kidd or John stockton, cmon...

And Isiah Thomas being ranked that low? Are you kidding me?

Where would you have Wade ranked?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Crap list but realgm has a bunch of retards
how in the living hell are there only 5 spots separating Parish and Mchale???? Mchale was a way better player :wtf: :wtf:

[ImKobe]

Where would you have Wade ranked?

If Dirk is ranked 16th, Wade has to be right there because he has a better Playoff run to show for it plus 2 additional NBA Championships, in which he did play a big part in. And his 2009 regular season is among the greatest in NBA history. Wade is also 8th all-time in PER for his career. Top 5 greatest shot blockers among guards, one of the best individual defenders at the SG position, 3rd GOAT SG.

Yeah, you can make a case for others too, but Wade is in that MJ & Kobe tier as a player.

[Marchesk]

No way Baylor is outside the top 20. He should be close to wherever Dr J gets ranked.

[bizil]

No Reed?

I know Reed was another tough one for me. He's certainly has all the credentials to be on the list. Hell he's in the HOF and on the NBA's original list. But I think what hurt him was guys like KG, Dirk, and Duncan coming along in terms of bigs. Those guys FOR SURE had better careers than Reed. And if u look at Reed's career stats, he only has 12,183 career points. He retired at 31 WHICH means his wasn't very durable over the long haul. Sure he has two rings, but was he EVER the best at his position. NO. And his individual numbers aren't GREAT enough to really supercede that. In a career that short, u gotta have one or the other. He made the first 50 rightfully so. But with guys like Kobe, Duncan, KG, Dirk, AI, Kidd, and Lebron coming down the pike, somebody has to get bumped. Plus Nique and McAdoo were robbed in the first list, so I had to get them on this one. Those two were TOO DOMINANT!

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

If Dirk is ranked 16th, Wade has to be right there because he has a better Playoff run to show for it plus 2 additional NBA Championships, in which he did play a big part in. And his 2009 regular season is among the greatest in NBA history. Wade is also 8th all-time in PER for his career. Top 5 greatest shot blockers among guards, one of the best individual defenders at the SG position, 3rd GOAT SG.

Yeah, you can make a case for others too, but Wade is in that MJ & Kobe tier as a player.
Dirk is clearly better than Wade. Way more consistent and he had alot less help overall

[ImKobe]

Dirk is clearly better than Wade. Way more consistent and he had alot less help overall

a lot less help? Nikka had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Antoine Walker & Antawn Jamison in the early 2000s on those Don Nelson teams...

then later on had Jason Terry, Stackhouse, Josh Howard, a lot of solid role players throughout those years. Then obviously the championship squad with Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, Peja.... Now he has another deep roster to work with. He can play 20-30 minutes and win comfortably. Also helps that he has one of the greatest NBA coaches ever in RC.

If anything, Dirk has had more help than Duncan over the years and has done less with it. How many years in a row did the Mavs win 50+ games and make the Playoffs prior to last season? And now they seem to be back at it. Yes, Wade has had better all-time players in Shaq & Lebron, but Shaq in Miami was not the Shaq in LA (especially the Shaq in 06 that put up 13/11 in the Finals). Wade's 06 run is more impressive than any Playoff run Dirk's had. And even in the 2011 Finals, Wade was the best player in that series and arguably the best player in the league that year. Wade's outperformed Dirk head-to-head.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron a bit too low for my taste..Russell too high, Magic too low, Chuck too low, but I really like it tbh..But that is RealGM's list if I remember correctly. Pretty sure. Could check.

[ArbitraryWater]

a lot less help? Nikka had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Antoine Walker & Antawn Jamison in the early 2000s on those Don Nelson teams...

then later on had Jason Terry, Stackhouse, Josh Howard, a lot of solid role players throughout those years. Then obviously the championship squad with Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, Peja.... Now he has another deep roster to work with. He can play 20-30 minutes and win comfortably. Also helps that he has one of the greatest NBA coaches ever in RC.

If anything, Dirk has had more help than Duncan over the years and has done less with it. How many years in a row did the Mavs win 50+ games and make the Playoffs prior to last season? And now they seem to be back at it. Yes, Wade has had better all-time players in Shaq & Lebron, but Shaq in Miami was not the Shaq in LA (especially the Shaq in 06 that put up 13/11 in the Finals). Wade's 06 run is more impressive than any Playoff run Dirk's had. And even in the 2011 Finals, Wade was the best player in that series and arguably the best player in the league that year. Wade's outperformed Dirk head-to-head.

You're insanely retarded.. Quickly heading for worst poster on ISH.

Tell me more about Dirk's glorious help during his peak/prime from 2005-2013... Or 2005-2010.

[ImKobe]

You're insanely retarded.. Quickly heading for worst poster on ISH.

Tell me more about Dirk's glorious help during his peak/prime from 2005-2013... Or 2005-2010.

Nikka had 60 win teams in the mid 2000s, what the f you talking about? 60-22 in 06 and 67-15 in 07...you want to tell me Dirk won those games himself on some 03 Duncan bullshyt? Right... Josh Howard and Jason Terry were balling in the mid-2000s. Nikka lost in the first round on a 67-win team his MVP year while Josh Howard was the best player in that series :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay, I am still waiting for Dirk's glorious help... So we have, Josh Howard and Jason Terry, is that it?

[L.Kizzle]

Crap list but realgm has a bunch of retards
how in the living hell are there only 5 spots separating Parish and Mchale???? Mchale was a way better player :wtf: :wtf:
No he wasn't.

[LAZERUSS]

It's virtually impossible to put together a Top-10 in which the majority agree with, much less a Top-50.

Furthermore, players like McAdoo and Walton were certainly Top-20 at their peaks.

BTW, Moses is generally ranked way too low in these lists, and if you include the ABA years, Dr. J as well. From '79-'83 Moses was by-far-and-away, the best player in the game (sorry Bird, Magic, KAJ, and Dr. J.) Dr. J's ABA seasons came in his prime, and all we needed to see from him to realize just how dominant he could have been had he played in the NBA in those years, was his '77 Finals.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

holy sht this nikka just said Dirk had more help than Duncan
holy sht holy sht holy sht not sure if retarded

the difference in coaching pre Carlisle was massive never mind the actual casts.

[ImKobe]

Okay, I am still waiting for Dirk's glorious help... So we have, Josh Howard and Jason Terry, is that it?

Jason Kidd?
Caron Butler?
Shawn Marion?

You already forgot about the 09-10 squad that won 55 and lost in the 1st round with HCA? How many times has Dirk been eliminated from the Playoffs with Home Court Advantage?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

It's virtually impossible to put together a Top-10 in which the majority agree with, much a Top-50.

Furthermore, players like McAdoo and Walton were certainly Top-20 at their peaks.

BTW, Moses is generally ranked way too low in these lists, and if you include the ABA years, Dr. J as well. From '79-'83 Moses was by-far-and-away, the best player in the game (sorry Bird, Magic, KAJ, and Dr. J.) Dr. J's ABA seasons came in his prime, and all we needed to see from him to realize just how dominant he could have been had he played in the NBA in those years, was his '77 Finals.
Mcadoo doesnt have a top 20 peak lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Jason Kidd?
Caron Butler?
Shawn Marion?

You already forgot about the 09-10 squad that won 55 and lost in the 1st round with HCA? How many times has Dirk been eliminated from the Playoffs with Home Court Advantage?

Oh, so now you're including guys from the 2010's I see?

So his best help over 7 something years was Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion?

All who were past their prime? None of who scored 20 ppg?

And he had multiple 60+ win seasons with THAT help? Name me someone else who won 67 games with similar help...

Dirk :bowdown:

Carrying decent rosters to 50-60 wins since' forever :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Mcadoo doesnt have a top 20 peak lol

His '73-74 to '75-76 seasons, including his playoff performances, were probably Top-10.

BTW, he finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting those three years, and was robbed in '76.

[SouBeachTalents]

His '73-74 to '75-76 seasons, including his playoff performances, were probably Top-10.

BTW, he finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting those three years, and was robbed in '76.

Nash finished 1st, 1st, and 2nd in MVP voting between 05-07, was this a top 10-20 peak as well?

[ImKobe]

holy sht this nikka just said Dirk had more help than Duncan
holy sht holy sht holy sht not sure if retarded

the difference in coaching pre Carlisle was massive never mind the actual casts.

He had 60+ win teams pre-carlisle

Who's the best player Duncan's ever had? Manu Ginobili? Dirk had Nash, Finley, Jamison, and those dudes played with him in their PRIMES.

Jamison came to Dallas to play off the bench during his prime for crying out loud...

Dirk's had the better supporting casts for his career than Duncan pre-2013.

That wasn't really the debate anyways, it was more about Wade deserving to be ranked higher than he is on that list. I don't really care about Dirk vs Duncan.

[ImKobe]

Oh, so now you're including guys from the 2010's I see?

So his best help over 7 something years was Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion?



This is total bullshit. And you said 2005-2010, that roster was assembled in 2009, so it fits the time frame you presented, idiot.

And those guys were balling for Dallas, you're acting like they were scrubs. How in hell was dirk outperformed by Josh Howard in multiple Playoff series? (the times he lost in the 1st round)???

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Dirk won 60+ games by himself during his prime? Like Terry wasn't putting up over 16 a game while shooting a high percentage from the field, being an elite 3pt shooter, like his role players were not elite 3pt shooters. What is your excuse for Dirk getting wrecked by Golden State in the 1st round?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Jason Kidd?
Caron Butler?
Shawn Marion?

You already forgot about the 09-10 squad that won 55 and lost in the 1st round with HCA? How many times has Dirk been eliminated from the Playoffs with Home Court Advantage?
Kidd was past his prime
lol @ u mentioning Shaq not being the same when he was robbed of MVP in 05 then bring up these nikkas

Caron Butler? He played 56 games thru 2 seasons and Dallas won a ring w/ him riding the bench for the playoffs

Marion was past his prime too not sure why youre bringing him up. He was a role player w/ elite defense at that point nothing more.

Duncan had Robinson, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Elliot, Horry, Diaw, Brent, SJax, etc:oldlol: :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

This is total bullshit. And you said 2005-2010, that roster was assembled in 2009, so it fits the time frame you presented, idiot.

And those guys were balling for Dallas, you're acting like they were scrubs. How in hell was dirk outperformed by Josh Howard in multiple Playoff series? (the times he lost in the 1st round)???

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Dirk won 60+ games by himself during his prime? Like Terry wasn't putting up over 16 a game while shooting a high percentage from the field, being an elite 3pt shooter, like his role players were not elite 3pt shooters. What is your excuse for Dirk getting wrecked by Golden State in the 1st round?

Don't put words in my mouth you little ******... You said Dirk had more help than Duncan throughout his career :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Dirk had some decent surporting casts, but nothing special.... Definitely nothing you win a title with.

He was the lone superstar. Guys like '03 Duncan and '11 Dirk are exceptions, as they had good complimentary help, that stepped up, but still won without another star....

This guy routinely won 50+ games with Jason Terry as his 2nd guy, and you can't even give him credit for it or acknowledge it :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Nash finished 1st, 1st, and 2nd in MVP voting between 05-07, was this a top 10-20 peak as well?

In McAdoo's '75 season, alone, and in 43 mpg, he averaged 34.5 ppg on a .512 eFG% (and an .805 FT%), in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg on a .457 eFG%. Think about that...just last year, the NBA averaged 101.0 ppg on an eFG% of .501. Furthermore, McAdoo also averaged 14.1 rpg.

In that post-season, he averaged 37.4 ppg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 100.5 ppg.

And he was nearly as great in both his regular seasons, and post-seasons, in '73-74 and '75-76.

Oh, and he routinely outscored Kareem in their H2H's.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

He had 60+ win teams pre-carlisle

Who's the best player Duncan's ever had? Manu Ginobili? Dirk had Nash, Finley, Jamison, and those dudes played with him in their PRIMES.

Jamison came to Dallas to play off the bench during his prime for crying out loud...

Dirk's had the better supporting casts for his career than Duncan pre-2013.

That wasn't really the debate anyways, it was more about Wade deserving to be ranked higher than he is on that list. I don't really care about Dirk vs Duncan.
Manu and Parker are better than all those players except maybe Nash. Are u really tryna pimp Finley and Antawn Jamison:oldlol: :oldlol: youre trying way too hard

Dallas had those 60 win teams because Dirk was amazing. His supporting cast rarely was amazing. In 2011 they were 2-9 in the games Dirk missed and lost to an injured raptors team at home whos best player available was Jerryd Bayless:oldlol: :oldlol: every other player on Dallas was healthy........seriously its like u dont understand the impact Dirk has w/ his spacing at the 4 position. He routinely makes players look way better than they actually are. Just look at Monta Ellis nikkas think he a top 5 SG now:oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Kidd was past his prime
lol @ u mentioning Shaq not being the same when he was robbed of MVP in 05 then bring up these nikkas

Caron Butler? He played 56 games thru 2 seasons and Dallas won a ring w/ him riding the bench for the playoffs

Marion was past his prime too not sure why youre bringing him up. He was a role player w/ elite defense at that point nothing more.

Duncan had Robinson, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Elliot, Horry, Diaw, Brent, SJax, etc:oldlol: :oldlol:

Kidd was still a walking double-double when he joined Dallas and played elite defense (notably on Lebron in the 2011 NBA Finals)

Shaq robbed of MVP in 05? Perhaps, but it has nothing to do with Wade's 2006 Championship run. Him destroying Dallas in the Finals while Shaq was reduced to being a role player.

Caron Butler, Marion, Stevenson, Barea, Terry, Chandler = all of them were great as a TEAM, their TEAM effort on containing Lebron is one of the greatest things ever seen in NBA history. RC is one of the GOAT coaches.

My debate wasn't even about Duncan vs. Dirk bro, it was about Wade being ranked too low on that all-time list.... I don't care whether Dirk really had more help than Duncan, though he had a lot of different players that played great over the years. People really underrate the team aspect and are just looking at names and disregard overall production of the team.

[eklip]

a lot less help? Nikka had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Antoine Walker & Antawn Jamison in the early 2000s on those Don Nelson teams...

then later on had Jason Terry, Stackhouse, Josh Howard, a lot of solid role players throughout those years. Then obviously the championship squad with Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, Peja.... Now he has another deep roster to work with. He can play 20-30 minutes and win comfortably. Also helps that he has one of the greatest NBA coaches ever in RC.

If anything, Dirk has had more help than Duncan over the years and has done less with it. How many years in a row did the Mavs win 50+ games and make the Playoffs prior to last season? And now they seem to be back at it. Yes, Wade has had better all-time players in Shaq & Lebron, but Shaq in Miami was not the Shaq in LA (especially the Shaq in 06 that put up 13/11 in the Finals). Wade's 06 run is more impressive than any Playoff run Dirk's had. And even in the 2011 Finals, Wade was the best player in that series and arguably the best player in the league that year. Wade's outperformed Dirk head-to-head.
Dirk played with Nash and Finley before he really hit his prime. 2003 Dirk got injured in the playoffs and 2004 both Finley and Nash under-performed immensely in the playoffs, it was one of the reasons why Cuban didn't resign Nash. Finley moved to the Spurs after 2004.

After 2003 Dirk was the only All-star on the Mavs with two exceptions:
Josh Howard made it 2007 into the All-star game as one of 4 injury replacements (because Mavs won 67 games)
Kidd was one of 4 injury replacements in 2009.

Dirk made it into two finals without another all-star player and with two almost completely different teams and two different coaches. He won the championship without another all-star and the championship team was horrible without Dirk. When he was injured they lost 8 of 10 games or something like that.

Wade won his first championship with Shaq. The next two championships he wasn't the best player on his team and he didn't even perform well in these two runs, at least not for a superstar.

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk played with Nash and Finley before he really hit his prime. 2003 Dirk got injured in the playoffs and 2004 both Finley and Nash under-performed immensely in the playoffs, it was one of the reasons why Cuban didn't resign Nash. Finley moved to the Spurs after 2004.

After 2003 Dirk was the only All-star on the Mavs with two exceptions:
Josh Howard made it 2007 into the All-star game as one of 4 injury replacements (because Mavs won 67 games)
Kidd was one of 4 injury replacements in 2009.

Dirk made it into two finals without another all-star player and with two almost completely different teams and two different coaches. He won the championship without another all-star and the championship team was horrible without Dirk. When he was injured they lost 8 of 10 games or something like that.

Wade won his first championship with Shaq. The next two championships he wasn't the best player on his team and he didn't even perform well in these two runs, at least not for a superstar.

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.


Manu and Parker are better than all those players except maybe Nash. Are u really tryna pimp Finley and Antawn Jamison:oldlol: :oldlol: youre trying way too hard

Dallas had those 60 win teams because Dirk was amazing. His supporting cast rarely was amazing. In 2011 they were 2-9 in the games Dirk missed and lost to an injured raptors team at home whos best player available was Jerryd Bayless:oldlol: :oldlol: every other player on Dallas was healthy........seriously its like u dont understand the impact Dirk has w/ his spacing at the 4 position. He routinely makes players look way better than they actually are. Just look at Monta Ellis nikkas think he a top 5 SG now:oldlol:

good post

[SouBeachTalents]

Dirk played with Nash and Finley before he really hit his prime. 2003 Dirk got injured in the playoffs and 2004 both Finley and Nash under-performed immensely in the playoffs, it was one of the reasons why Cuban didn't resign Nash. Finley moved to the Spurs after 2004.

After 2003 Dirk was the only All-star on the Mavs with two exceptions:
Josh Howard made it 2007 into the All-star game as one of 4 injury replacements (because Mavs won 67 games)
Kidd was one of 4 injury replacements in 2009.

Dirk made it into two finals without another all-star player and with two almost completely different teams and two different coaches. He won the championship without another all-star and the championship team was horrible without Dirk. When he was injured they lost 8 of 10 games or something like that.

Wade won his first championship with Shaq. The next two championships he wasn't the best player on his team and he didn't even perform well in these two runs, at least not for a superstar.

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.

2012 Wade played well, 2013 he did not until games 4-7 of the Finals

[ImKobe]

Dirk played with Nash and Finley before he really hit his prime. 2003 Dirk got injured in the playoffs and 2004 both Finley and Nash under-performed immensely in the playoffs, it was one of the reasons why Cuban didn't resign Nash. Finley moved to the Spurs after 2004.

After 2003 Dirk was the only All-star on the Mavs with two exceptions:
Josh Howard made it 2007 into the All-star game as one of 4 injury replacements (because Mavs won 67 games)
Kidd was one of 4 injury replacements in 2009.

Dirk made it into two finals without another all-star player and with two almost completely different teams and two different coaches. He won the championship without another all-star and the championship team was horrible without Dirk. When he was injured they lost 8 of 10 games or something like that.

Wade won his first championship with Shaq. The next two championships he wasn't the best player on his team and he didn't even perform well in these two runs, at least not for a superstar.

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.

So what that he won with Shaq? He was a shell of his former self and a glorified garbage man in the Finals while Wade had one of the best averages in the Finals history, I believe highest PER by any Finals MVP ever. Heat were on the verge of going 0 - 3 in that series and Wade went HAM. Dirk literally has nothing to match what Wade did in he Final 4 games of that series. 39/8/4 on 51% shooting after team was down 0 - 2 in that series. I'm sorry, but Dirk has nothing to counter that.

3 rings & 1 FMVP > 1 ring & 1 FMVP :confusedshrug:

Not to mention that Wade's peak > Dirk's

Wade's 09 season >>> Dirk's MVP season


Dirk obviously has better longetivity due to his skillset, but peak for peak, Wade's better.

[ImKobe]

2012 Wade played well, 2013 he did not until games 4-7 of the Finals

2012 Wade was very good and underrated by many, 2013 the health issues caught up with him, but he delivered when it mattered.

[ArbitraryWater]

ImKobe keeps moving the goal post.. The topic changes once again.

Now it's "Wade's peak > Dirk's peak"

Try replying to Hamtaro's post. Or mine.

[bizil]

It's virtually impossible to put together a Top-10 in which the majority agree with, much less a Top-50.

Furthermore, players like McAdoo and Walton were certainly Top-20 at their peaks.

BTW, Moses is generally ranked way too low in these lists, and if you include the ABA years, Dr. J as well. From '79-'83 Moses was by-far-and-away, the best player in the game (sorry Bird, Magic, KAJ, and Dr. J.) Dr. J's ABA seasons came in his prime, and all we needed to see from him to realize just how dominant he could have been had he played in the NBA in those years, was his '77 Finals.

I agree! In my book, I think Doc is the GOAT SF in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! Now NBA wise, its Bird or Bron. But when u take a look at Doc's resume, he's the GOAT SF in my mind. ABA did a lot to redefine basketball and some of the greatest of all time played in that league. ABA was NO XFL bullshit. And it wasn't the USFL either. ABA teams and concepts were integrated and made REALLY helped make the NBA what it is today. So I feel that holds MAJOR WEIGHT when it comes to Doc. Moses was also a BEAST as well! He brought brute force to the middle and was also very skilled in terms of his scoring arsenal. Of all the great centers, he was the most physical besides Shaq and Wilt.

[Cold soul]

Terrible list don't make another one.

[Beastmode88]

when you see chris paul above isiah thomas you know u got something wrong.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

when you see chris paul above isiah thomas you know u got something wrong.
CP is a better PG and basketball player than Zeke ever was. Even Zeke knows and has said as much
CP has multiple seasons better than Zekes best especially 08 CP which shts on every PG season not belonging to Magic or Big O

[iTare]

Terrible list don't make another one.
You're such a horrible poster.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No he wasn't.
yes he was.........in what world is Parish close to Mchale as a basketball player?

[LAZERUSS]

I agree! In my book, I think Doc is the GOAT SF in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! Now NBA wise, its Bird or Bron. But when u take a look at Doc's resume, he's the GOAT SF in my mind. ABA did a lot to redefine basketball and some of the greatest of all time played in that league. ABA was NO XFL bullshit. And it wasn't the USFL either. ABA teams and concepts were integrated and made REALLY helped make the NBA what it is today. So I feel that holds MAJOR WEIGHT when it comes to Doc. Moses was also a BEAST as well! He brought brute force to the middle and was also very skilled in terms of his scoring arsenal. Of all the great centers, he was the most physical besides Shaq and Wilt.

My only real problem with the ABA, was that the quality of centers was considerably less than the NBA. But, at the forward slots, they were right there with the NBA's best. Rick Barry, while shooting on a higher efficiency, scored about the same, as did Billy Cunningham, and Connie Hawkins.

I don't believe that Erving would have rebounded at the same level, but his scoring probably would have been reasonably close to his ABA levels, had he been playing in the NBA in the same time.

Moses was the most feared player in the NBA from '79 thru '83. And even after that, he was still a force. And no one dominated a near-prime KAJ like a prime Moses did. He just brutalized Kareem...especially on the glass. I won't take the time to look up the numbers, but he likely held somewhere between a 7-to-10 rpg margin over Abdul-Jabbar in their career H2H's (and most certainly at his peak.) He also outscored Kareem by a solid margin over the course of their careers, and had some monster games against him, as well. Not to mention that he held a 6-1 playoff H2H margin over KAJ, too.

[TheNaturalWR]

Dirk is clearly better than Wade. Way more consistent and he had alot less help overall

I hope you're not saying Dirk was a better player than Wade.......better longevity as a top 10 player? Sure. But don't tell me Prime/Peak Dirk was better than Prime/Peak Wade because he wasn't. I have no problem with Dirk being ranked higher as I have him 3-4 spots higher than I have Wade but lets' not say stuff that's not true.

[RRR3]

T-Mac is way too low. Terrible list.






Jk. List looks suspect tho.

[LAZERUSS]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Dirk Nowitzki
17. Karl Malone
18. David Robinson
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley
21. Bob Pettit
22. Patrick Ewing
23. Dwyane Wade
24. George Mikan
25. Steve Nash
26. John Stockton
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Walt Frazier
29. Rick Barry
30. John Havlicek
31. Chris Paul
32. Clyde Drexler
33. Elgin Baylor
34. Jason Kidd
35. Artis Gilmore
36. Kevin Durant
37. Gary Payton
38. George Gervin
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Reggie Miller
41. Paul Pierce
42. Alonzo Mourning
43. Dwight Howard
44. Kevin McHale
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Ray Allen
47. Willis Reed
48. Tracy McGrady
49. Dikembe Mutombo
50. Robert Parish

Magic at #8 is WAY too low; Hakeem at #9 is considerably too high; Kobe at #13 is too low; Moses at #19 is WAY too low; Garnett at #11 is probably too high; Dr. J, if you include his ABA years, is too low; Ewing is WAY too high; Baylor is WAY too low; Havlicek is WAY too low; and McAdoo and Sam Jones should be on that list. I would certainly take McAdoo over Howard, McGrady, Mutombo, and Parish. And Sam Jones had a better career than Reggie Miller did, among others.

[WadeStan]

No way Ewing should be in the top 30.

Same with Steve Nash. Better than Stockton and Pippen??? :wtf:

Chris Paul and KD shouldn't even be on this thing. KD some day for sure. If Paul's on it, it certainly shouldn't be ahead of winners like Kidd and Payton.

Oh, and no way Duncan should be ahead of Magic. Magic is top 5.

[Cold soul]

You're such a horrible poster.

Oh yeah? This is coming from some nobody sure means a lot. :oldlol:

[L.Kizzle]

yes he was.........in what world is Parish close to Mchale as a basketball player?
This world. Never seen a player so overrated as McHale. Never seen a guy ranked so high on many list (not this one, they actually got it right around 40 is where he should be) with a low number of accolades.

[tpols]

-Hakeem over bird.. Just a wtf ranking.

-Garnett over Kobe.. Another one. In terms of careers.

-dirk so far over Wade.. They've virtually the same level of play and accomplishment. Wade has outplayed him twice head to head in the finals by a wiiide margin.

-steve Nash 9 spots over Jason kidd.. Seriously? Wtf.

-also really disagree with Shaq over magic.. Don't feel that's close.

[CelticBaller]

Magic being over hakeem and bird :no:

[LAZERUSS]

Magic barely over hakeem and bird :no:

You're right. He is much too close. He should be ranked WAY ahead of both.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[iTare]

Oh yeah? This is coming from some nobody sure means a lot. :oldlol:
Who fvck are u

[BIZARRO]

Things are always debatable on these lists, but...

Magic is WAY too low at #8.

And there is NO universe where Jason Kidd was a better basketball player than Isaiah Thomas. That is completely ridiculous and insulting to Isaiah.

Other than that, there are some things I'd disagree with, but only those two things are pretty egregious.

[pauk]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Dirk Nowitzki
17. Karl Malone
18. David Robinson
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley
21. Bob Pettit
22. Patrick Ewing
23. Dwyane Wade
24. George Mikan
25. Steve Nash
26. John Stockton
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Walt Frazier
29. Rick Barry
30. John Havlicek
31. Chris Paul
32. Clyde Drexler
33. Elgin Baylor
34. Jason Kidd
35. Artis Gilmore
36. Kevin Durant
37. Gary Payton
38. George Gervin
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Reggie Miller
41. Paul Pierce
42. Alonzo Mourning
43. Dwight Howard
44. Kevin McHale
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Ray Allen
47. Willis Reed
48. Tracy McGrady
49. Dikembe Mutombo
50. Robert Parish

:cheers:

[penny4president]

lebron and KG are too high,

[oarabbus]

KG is 11? Steve Nash, Scottie Pippen, Dr. J over John Havlicek?

Don't know about all that.

[ArbitraryWater]

-Hakeem over bird.. Just a wtf ranking.

-Garnett over Kobe.. Another one. In terms of careers.

-dirk so far over Wade.. They've virtually the same level of play and accomplishment. Wade has outplayed him twice head to head in the finals by a wiiide margin.

-steve Nash 9 spots over Jason kidd.. Seriously? Wtf.

-also really disagree with Shaq over magic.. Don't feel that's close.

You're confused about Dirk over Wade?

I mean, seriously?

[fragokota]

Magic and Larry at #8 & #10 :biggums:

[Dresta]

Okay, I am still waiting for Dirk's glorious help... So we have, Josh Howard and Jason Terry, is that it?
You really are that typical retard that sees big names on a teamsheet and nothing else. Dirk has had great help pretty much his whole career despite never playing with another actual superstar. This doesn't mean his team didn't have great depth, he doesn't have a great coach etc.

Dallas's team right now attests to this - he has only been playing 27mpg and the Mavs have still been cruising. Ellis, Chandler, Parsons, Wright - none of these guys are stars but they still make up a great supporting cast for 36-year old Dirk.

Josh Howard was a great two way player in 06 and 06/07, Jason Terry was as good (and probably more useful because of his shooting) as Ellis is right now. He also had Stackhouse (averaged 16 points of the bench against the Spurs) and Harris and a couple of good defensive big men (something every team with Dirk has needed to win).

The Mavs won 60 games in 06 and 67 in 07 - that was a GREAT supporting cast, and Dirk should have won a championship with them (would have if he hadn't missed shots and FTs he should have made). Dirk in 06 clearly had more help than Wade did, yet he lost in a finals where he played woefully. That he didn't do anything with that team, in his prime, is most certainly a big blemish on his career (losing in finals and then 1st round season after).

[Dresta]

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.
:roll:

Maybe if numbers in the first round are as important as numbers in the finals and conference finals to you? Wade was dominant in the last 3 rounds of the playoffs, whereas Dirk was only dominant in the first 3. That's the difference, and it's a pretty important one. When you add in that Dirk's team lost in fact because of his drop-off in performance and Wade's elevation in performance it becomes pretty bloody obvious who had the better run in 06 so cut the bullshit.

Dirk struggled to score in the finals with single coverage from Haslem or Posey while a guy on his own team put up as many points as him on superior efficiency (Terry) - yet this guy is a scrub in your eyes. Josh Howard was an all-star in 06-07 (one that played both ends of the floor too) and yet the next season Dirk won 67 games and got brushed aside by an 8 seed in the first round. You simply need to accept that Dirk was almost as much of a mental creampuff in his early career as Lebron was.


Oh, so now you're including guys from the 2010's I see?

So his best help over 7 something years was Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion?

All who were past their prime? None of who scored 20 ppg?

And he had multiple 60+ win seasons with THAT help? Name me someone else who won 67 games with similar help...

Dirk :bowdown:

Carrying decent rosters to 50-60 wins since' forever :applause:
Again, Dirk had great help that year. He had guys on his team with winshares of 10.8, 8.8, 6.5, 6.4 - that combined with one of his best regular seasons is why they won 67 games (Josh Howard improvement 06 reg season to 07 reg season was one of the biggest factors in winning more than in 06).

Compare this to Wade's 'amazing help in 06' when he had only two guys above 6 (6.2 & 7) and it becomes pretty clear who had to carry a bigger load.

Tell me, when was the last time a guy dragged a starting lineup including Jason Williams and Toine Walker to an NBA title? At the time people understood Dallas had a far more balanced supporting cast, and that's why Dallas were favourites despite the fact both Dirk and Wade had been unstoppable in the past couple of rounds.

edit: also, KG one spot behind Bird @ 11? Wtf is wrong with these morons...

[pastis]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Dirk Nowitzki
17. Karl Malone
18. David Robinson
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley
21. Bob Pettit
22. Patrick Ewing
23. Dwyane Wade
24. George Mikan
25. Steve Nash
26. John Stockton
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Walt Frazier
29. Rick Barry
30. John Havlicek
31. Chris Paul
32. Clyde Drexler
33. Elgin Baylor
34. Jason Kidd
35. Artis Gilmore
36. Kevin Durant
37. Gary Payton
38. George Gervin
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Reggie Miller
41. Paul Pierce
42. Alonzo Mourning
43. Dwight Howard
44. Kevin McHale
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Ray Allen
47. Willis Reed
48. Tracy McGrady
49. Dikembe Mutombo
50. Robert Parish

in fact good list. But kevin garnett is too high and bird too low.
but other than that: :applause:

biatches like tpool, dresta are trolling like always.

at dresta and alts: even if your suicide watch is running down. wade is a tier below dirk. he is rank 25-35. thats it. you cant change it. he is a beta whining biatch, carried by lebron, choking in eastern conference his whole career.

[kurple]

isiah thomas #39???

horrible list

[kurple]

and where is Iverson?

[Sakkreth]

Bird too low, KG way too high, Isiah way too low.

That's what I noticed at first glance.

[Dresta]

in fact good list. But kevin garnett is too high and bird too low.
but other than that: :applause:

biatches like tpool, dresta are trolling like always.

at dresta and alts: even if your suicide watch is running down. wade is a tier below dirk. he is rank 25-35. thats it. you cant change it. he is a beta whining biatch, carried by lebron, choking in eastern conference his whole career.
Who the **** are you then Apr 2014? A Lebronstan alt no-doubt, as there seem to be about 3 of you running 10+ accounts between yourselves.

I see like a true non-troll you've taken the time to write a real cogent point-by-point discussion of the points i raised, but nah, he's a 'beta', and a 'biatch' choker who needs to be carried by a guy who'd never won a ring before teaming up with him :lol - i guess that settles it then, that argument's iron-clad.

Funny you accuse others of being trolls while this post is pure troll language.