Tim Duncan vs Kobe Bryant ( year by year TOP 10 rankings ) you decide

[kennethgriffin]

forget duncans short term success at the top of the nba. his team/coach is more responsible for his resume than his individual status in the nba. and looking at the top 10 players in the nba each year since both players have been in the league together. this is more than evident


1997-98 top 10 players

#1 Michael Jordan
#2 Karl Malone
#3 Shaquille Oneal
#4 David Robinson
#5 Grant Hill
#6 Tim Duncan
#7 Gary Payton
#8 Scottie Pippen
#9 Tim Hardaway
#10 Reggie Miller

1998-99 top 10 players

#1 Karl Malone
#2 Shaquille Oneal
#3 Alonzo Mourning
#4 Tim Duncan
#5 Allen Iverson
#6 Jason Kidd
#7 Grant Hill
#8 Gary Payton
#9 Kevin Garnett
#10 Kobe Bryant


1999-00 top 10 players

#1 Shaquille Oneal
#2 Tim Duncan
#3 Kevin Garnett
#4 Jason Kidd
#5 Kobe Bryant
#6 Grant Hill
#7 Gary Payton
#8 Alonzo Mourning
#9 Karl Malone
#10 Allen Iverson


2000-01

#1 Shaquille Oneal
#2 Kobe Bryant
#3 Tim Duncan
#4 Allen Iverson
#5 Chris Webber
#6 Kevin Garnett
#7 Jason Kidd
#8 Vince Carter
#9 Tracy Mcgrady
#10 Karl Malone


2001-02

#1 Shaquille Oneal
#2 Tim Duncan
#3 Kobe Bryant
#4 Tracy Mcgrady
#5 Kevin Garnett
#6 Chris Webber
#7 Jason Kidd
#8 Allen Iverson
#9 Dirk Nowitzki
#10 Gary Payton

2002-03

#1 Tim Duncan
#2 Kobe Bryant
#3 Tracy Mcgrady
#4 Kevin Garnett
#5 Shaquille Oneal
#6 Dirk Nowitzki
#7 Allen Iverson
#8 Chris Webber
#9 Jason Kidd
#10 Paul Pierce

2003-04

#1 Kevin Garnett
#2 Tim Duncan
#3 Kobe Bryant
#4 Tracy Mcgrady
#5 Shaquille Oneal
#6 Jermaine Oneal
#7 Dirk Nowitzki
#8 Peja Stojakovic
#9 Ron Artest
#10 Yao Ming

2004-05

#1 Tim Duncan
#2 Shaquille Oneal
#3 Dirk Nowitzki
#4 Kevin Garnett
#5 Allen Iverson
#6 Steve Nash
#7 Amare Stoudemire
#8 Lebron James
#9 Kobe Bryant ( thick injuries/ rebuilding )
#10 Ray Allen

2005-06

#1 Kobe Bryant
#2 Dirk Nowitzki
#3 Lebron James
#4 Dwyane Wade
#5 Shaquille oneal
#6 Steve Nash
#7 Tim Duncan
#8 Kevin Garnett
#9 Yao Ming
#10 Elton Brand


2006-07

#1 Kobe Bryant
#2 Dirk Nowitzki
#3 Steve Nash
#4 Amare Stoudemire
#5 Lebron James
#6 Tim Duncan
#7 Gilbert Arenas
#8 Yao Ming
#9 Kevin Garnett
#10 Dwyane Wade

2007-08

#1 Kobe Bryant
#2 Lebron James
#3 Chris Paul
#4 Kevin Garnett
#5 Dwight Howard
#6 Dirk Nowitzki
#7 Amare Stoudemire
#8 Steve Nash
#9 Tim Duncan
#10 Yao Ming

2008-09

#1 Kobe Bryant
#2 Lebron James
#3 Dwyane Wade
#4 Dirk Nowitzki
#5 Dwight Howard
#6 Chris Paul
#7 Yao Ming
#8 Paul Pierce
#9 Carmelo Anthony
#10 Tim Duncan


2009-10

#1 Kobe Bryant
#2 Lebron James
#3 Dwight Howard
#4 Dwyane Wade
#5 Kevin Durant
#6 Dirk Nowitzki
#7 Carmelo Anthony
#8 Amare Stoudemire
#9 Steve Nash
#10 Deron Williams


2010-11

#1 Dwight Howard
#2 Lebron James
#3 Dirk Nowitzki
#4 Kevin Durant
#5 Kobe Bryant
#6 Dwyane Wade
#7 Derrick Rose ( yes.... hes overrated as ****. even during his MVP year )
#8 Chris Paul
#9 Amare Stoudemire
#10 Russell Westbrook

2011-12

#1 Lebron James
#2 Kevin Durant
#3 Kobe Bryant
#4 Dwight Howard
#5 Chris Paul
#6 Russell Westbrook
#7 Tony Parker
#8 Andrew Bynum
#9 Carmelo Anthony
#10 Dwyane Wade

2012-13

#1 Lebron James
#2 Kevin Durant
#3 Kobe Bryant
#4 Chris Paul
#5 Carmelo Anthony
#6 Tony Parker
#7 Russell Westbrook
#8 Blake Griffin
#9 Paul George
#10 tim duncan ( semi comeback )

2013-14

#1 Kevin Durant
#2 Lebron James
#3 Chris Paul
#4 Blake Griffin
#5 James Harden
#6 Stephen Curry
#7 Kevin Love
#8 Dwight Howard
#9 Kevin Love
#10 Paul George
(kobe achilles/broken leg - out for season)

2014-15

Kobe Bryant - 28ppg/5rpg/4apg ( rank him wherever you want. all i know is hes above tim duncan thats for sure. )


in the end... its clear that kobes had the better career individually. duncan hasnt been near the top of the nba in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time

kobes still there after 20 years... says allot

[lilteapot]

pretty dumb to try and evaluate duncan's greatness by stats because he's sacrificed stats for almost his entire career to win games.

[iamgine]

Kobe was never the #1 player in the league.

[kennethgriffin]

pretty dumb to try and evaluate duncan's greatness by stats because he's sacrificed stats for almost his entire career to win games.


thats the whole f*cking point i'm trying to make

he had a 12 man deep roster his whole life and they win 90% of the time he DNP's due to "age" or "rest"


we'l never know how great he truly was because he only saw flashes of individual dominance way back when i was in grade 10,11 or some shit... and i'm 30 years old now

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe was never the #1 player in the league.
even if he was #2 every year i ranked him #1 he'd still have a waaaaaaaaaaaay more impressive career than duncan

so save your thread derailment for another time idiot

[pastis]

i like kenneth. he doesnt hate or undervalue Dirk Nowitzki unlike some of Kobe stans.:applause:

saying that, i would rank dirk in some years higher:bowdown: :bowdown:

e.g. 2013/2014 he was a top10 guy

e.g. 2011 he was rank 1 or 2 and lebron rank 1 or 2 and dwight only rank 3
e.g 2010 he was top3-4
e.g 2007 he was rank1

[iamgine]

In addition to never being #1, Kobe also isn't #2 every year.

[ArbitraryWater]

I just started reading but 2000 Kobe better than 2000 Grant Hill is the first :roll:

[SugarHill]

How the fvck was Kobe better than Malone in 2000? :coleman:

lmfao @ Kobe being better than Shaq in 04

[kennethgriffin]

I just started reading but 2000 Kobe better than 2000 Grant Hill is the first :roll:

23/5/5 1st team all defense, 2nd team all nba, nba champion, WCF game 7 MVP

kobe was f*cking ballin you doofus

just because he got hurt in the finals and it f*cked with his stats doesnt take away from the player he was

and he had to share with glen rice during that season.. imagine if they dumped his useless ass before the season started. his 23ppg goes up to 27-28ppg easy

so gtfo bro




and funny thing is people laugh at 23ppg for kobe. yet its duncans career high practically and hasnt been seen since the stone age

[ArbitraryWater]

i like kenneth. he doesnt hate or undervalue Dirk Nowitzki unlike some of Kobe stans.:applause:

saying that, i would rank dirk in some years higher:bowdown: :bowdown:

At first sight, but then you realize its just to have someone over Lebron :lol

(Yeah, would put Dirk higher in 2010, 2012, 2014... Perhaps 2002 a bit.)

[Mr. Jabbar]

just going by the eye-test kobe is the better/more skilled player, accolade-wise they're pretty similar but its not really fair due to teammates/organization throughout their careers.

i used to have all these void discussions with biased rankings and stats but using the eye test rlly changed my life

[ArbitraryWater]

Grant Hill's best year was in 2000 when he as 28 and just in his prime. His numbers that season were 26/7/5 on 49% shooting... Putting up LeBron #'s.

Among the league leader in triple doubles in most seasons. The Pistons lone star for most years and the only real help he had was Allan Houston.

No doubt superior to '00 Bean, same for Karl Malone.

[kennethgriffin]

How the fvck was Kobe better than Malone in 2000? :coleman:

lmfao @ Kobe being better than Shaq in 04


2000 kobe is perhaps the most underrated player ever

if his name was lebron james and at age 21 he was taking over finals games, saving the season in game 7's against a stacked portland team down 15 in the 4th q, slappin game winners on jason kidds suns in the PO's. and having 1st team all defensive accolades as the youngest to ever do it. while claiming nba titles with a 23/5/5 season, 21/5/5 playoff average.... then everyone would say "WOW"

but its kobe... we hold him to higher standards i guess

[RoundMoundOfReb]

These rankings are ****ing awful

[SugarHill]

2000 kobe is perhaps the most underrated player ever

if his name was lebron james and at age 21 he was taking over finals games, saving the season in game 7's against a stacked portland team down 15 in the 4th q, slappin game winners on jason kidds suns in the PO's. and having 1st team all defensive accolades as the youngest to ever do it. while claiming nba titles with a 23/5/5 season, 21/5/5 playoff average.... then everyone would say "WOW"

but its kobe... we hold him to higher standards i guess

Higher standards? More like you'll say anything to propel him into a deity so you can rationalize your worship.

BTW, 21 year old Bron did 31/7/7 :yaohappy:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

2000 Kobe averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Not impressed.

[kennethgriffin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqRbAT34fko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4FEFygK1ts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k43TNVKTSYc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHlY74ry7-Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c8E5EzKmUg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtudOhIaFaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ePntdivC8


give me 2000 kobe over old man malone and glass foot hill any day of the week

[tpols]

2000 Kobe averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Not impressed.


Did you see grant hills stats in the playoffs?

11/5/5 on 37% shooting. :roll: :roll:

Makes 2000 Finals Kobe look like peak MJ.

[kennethgriffin]

Higher standards? More like you'll say anything to propel him into a deity so you can rationalize your worship.

BTW, 21 year old Bron did 31/7/7 :yaohappy:

did that come with 1st team all defense, saving the season, winning a title with epic clutch performances?

[gts]

Grant Hill's best year was in 2000 when he as 28 and just in his prime. His numbers that season were 26/7/5 on 49% shooting... Putting up LeBron #'s.

Among the league leader in triple doubles in most seasons. The Pistons lone star for most years and the only real help he had was Allan Houston.

No doubt superior to '00 Bean, same for Karl Malone.

For somebody who screams about the lakers record every time he's trying to knock Kobe down a notch you sure are overlooking the pistons 42-40 record that season in a pathetically weak eastern conference

[ArbitraryWater]

Did you see grant hills stats in the playoffs?

11/5/5 on 37% shooting. :roll: :roll:

Makes 2000 Finals Kobe look like peak MJ.

11/6/5 on 37% in two ****ing games (guess why) you moron....

BTW: 11/6/5 on 37% makes 16/5/4 on 37% look like peak MJ?

[ArbitraryWater]

For somebody who screams about the lakers record every time he's trying to knock Kobe down a notch you sure are overlooking the pistons 42-40 record that season in a pathetically weak eastern conference

Yeah because one wasn't chucking 24 fga on sub-40% shooting....

You Laker brains are incredibly small.

[chazzy]

11/6/5 on 37% in two ****ing games (guess why) you moron....
They both had ankle injuries

[ArbitraryWater]

They both had ankle injuries

I guess we can cut that entire point then (Roundmound)

but then again, Kobe didn't seem to be to infected by an ankle injury in his great&clutch game 4....

Or his 27 fga chuck fest game 6.

[kennethgriffin]

grant hill on his own team without having to share with anyone in 2000 only managed 2 more ppg than kobe


kobe had 2 less PPG than hill while having to share with 30ppg shaq and 16ppg rice

imagine if shaq and rice went down with injuries during the season. kobe wouldve averaged 35 for god sake

[RoundMoundOfReb]

More egregious is Kobe being so high in 2013. WTF. Better than Chris Paul? GTFO. He did nothing that year to be above, Harden, Wade, Duncan, Curry and a lot of other guys.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Also, interestingly don't see chazzy bitching about this agenda thread.

[tpols]

11/6/5 on 37% in two ****ing games (guess why) you moron....

BTW: 11/6/5 on 37% makes 16/5/4 on 37% look like peak MJ?

Wait a second.. so now injuries matter?

:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

grant hill on his own team without having to share with anyone in 2000 only managed 2 more ppg than kobe


kobe had 2 less PPG than hill while having to share with 30ppg shaq and 16ppg rice

imagine if shaq and rice went down with injuries during the season. kobe wouldve averaged 35 for god sake

"Kobe had to share the ball" "Hill didn't have to share the ball with anyone" "Kobe would have put up much more points if he could play Hill's role"

Kobe: 18 FGA for 22.5 ppg
Hill: 19 FGA for 25.8 ppg

Next

[kennethgriffin]

More egregious is Kobe being so high in 2013. WTF. Better than Chris Paul? GTFO. He did nothing that year to be above, Harden, Wade, Duncan, Curry and a lot of other guys.

lol he literally could have been considered for the MVP

he dragged that depleted laker team to the playoffs

and before the achilles injury it was arguably the best version of kobe we've seen since 2006

i remember that year. tons of amazing games

and dunks like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN8h_LiEzIA

:bowdown:

[ArbitraryWater]

Also, interestingly don't see chazzy bitching about this agenda thread.

Dude still tries to come off as objective though :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

"Kobe had to share the ball" "Hill didn't have to share the ball with anyone" "Kobe would have put up much more points if he could play Hill's role"

Kobe: 18 FGA for 22.5 ppg
Hill: 19 FGA for 25.8 ppg

Next


you act like kobe would have settled for a 19 fga role on detroit LOL

kobes more alpha than that on bad teams

[ArbitraryWater]

I just remember his 2013 defense

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/3/26/4149732/kobe-bryants-defensive-hypocrisy-knows-no-bounds

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/an-open-letter-to-kobe-bryant-about-his-defense/

[ArbitraryWater]

you act like kobe would have settled for a 19 fga role on detroit LOL

kobes more alpha than that on bad teams

Oh so you're saying, even though Kobe was 2nd option, he attempted just one less shot than Hill, but scored 3 less Points? And if he were to match Hill's scoring output, he would need more shots?



And you think this helps you make a pro-Kobe Argument in scoring, how?

[chazzy]

Also, interestingly don't see chazzy bitching about this agenda thread.

my trolling

my trolling

my trolling

my trolling
You've admitted you're trolling. I called out 9erempire in the same post as you, moron.

2013 Kobe put up 27/6/6 on 57 TS%.. most agreed he was in the mix for top 5 that year

[RoundMoundOfReb]

lol he literally could have been considered for the MVP

he dragged that depleted laker team to the playoffs

and before the achilles injury it was arguably the best version of kobe we've seen since 2006

i remember that year. tons of amazing games

and dunks like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN8h_LiEzIA

:bowdown:

No, he didn't. He barely made the playoffs with a stacked team and then didn't even play in the playoffs. Dwight was better than Kobe that year, anyways. And I really have no clue how you can rank him above Harden who took a cast (very similar to this years laker cast and much worse than the 2013 Laker cast) of Lin, 2nd year Parsons, Asik, (I forget who their PF was) to the playoffs.

[kennethgriffin]

You've admitted you're trolling. I called out 9erempire in the same post as you, moron.

why do you even read or respond to that dubeta/dragic wannabe

roundmoundofreb doesnt even have his own style

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You've admitted you're trolling. I called out 9erempire in the same post as you, moron.

Comparing me to 9erempiree alone shows your bias. Dude has maximum negative rep....that's legitimately hard to do.

I troll sometimes in a way that amuses me (and maybe others) he just trolls to piss people off.

[chazzy]

I troll sometimes
:oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

2013 Kobe put up 27/6/6 on 57 TS%.. most agreed he was in the mix for top 5 that year
With god awful defense. Tell me why he's better than Chris Paul? Blake Griffin? James Harden? Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Tony Parker? How about Melo?

Kobe was not top 10 in 2013, he was probably somewhere in the 10-20 range.

[riseagainst]

With god awful defense. Tell me why he's better than Chris Paul? Blake Griffin? James Harden? Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Tony Parker? How about Melo?

Kobe was not top 10 in 2013, he was probably somewhere in the 10-20 range.

he was only -0.7 in DBPM how is that "god awful".

[ArbitraryWater]

With god awful defense. Tell me why he's better than Chris Paul? Blake Griffin? James Harden? Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Tony Parker? How about Melo?

Kobe was not top 10 in 2013, he was probably somewhere in the 10-20 range.

He was definitely top 10.

But low end. And not a strong argument over any of those guys.

Again, everyone seems to ignore the locker room issues with Dwight like they never happened... That Team had zero chemistry, and some blame needs to go to the leader. Kobe seems to always escape that.


he was only -0.7 in DBPM how is that "god awful".

Did you actually watch his defense in '13? It was god awful... Here, recap of just one game... one game.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy34bi_kobe-lazy-defense-2012-2013-volume-1-of-many-more-to-come_sport#.UbOou5y632v

[Droid101]

I troll sometimes
:roll:

[chazzy]

With god awful defense. Tell me why he's better than Chris Paul? Blake Griffin? James Harden? Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Tony Parker? How about Melo?

Kobe was not top 10 in 2013, he was probably somewhere in the 10-20 range.
The only way you can argue he wasn't top 10 was the fact that he missed the playoffs due to injury. If we're just judging ability on the court, he's arguably top 5. Lebron, KD, and CP3 were my top 3 that year and the rest isn't definitive.

[SugarHill]

With god awful defense. Tell me why he's better than Chris Paul? Blake Griffin? James Harden? Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Tony Parker? How about Melo?

Kobe was not top 10 in 2013, he was probably somewhere in the 10-20 range.

There were 10 players better than a 27/6/6 SG in 2013? :kobe:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

he was only -0.7 in DBPM how is that "god awful".

DRAPM = -1.2

[STATUTORY]

it's not even really close and this is not factoring off the court cultural impact. how many disney channel episodes, GQ magazine covers, albums, movies has Duncan been part of?

and there ain't no way that a cuckold is making my personal top 5

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll:


http://i.gyazo.com/6e450c34301de465d2d3d6f9ce0fb8e6.png
http://i.gyazo.com/c3ffca08f7ad4b9c42911a10b47479ba.png
http://i.gyazo.com/23a9d1b6e7e35a31038c632a83c77860.png
http://i.gyazo.com/3dfde20162b94fc9915fd768ab75bb94.png
http://i.gyazo.com/b10484f3af446519fc0129bcd75f1559.png

I actually hope you ARE trolling, because if not, you're the most retarded person on ISH... Which says alot.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

There were 10 players better than a 27/6/6 SG in 2013? :kobe:


Better without a doubt:

LeBron
Durant
Chris Paul
Steph Curry
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony
Tony Parker
Russell Westbrook
Tim Duncan

Other players who were better:

Marc Gasol
Dwyane Wade
Blake Griffin
Dwight Howard
etc...

[SugarHill]

it's not even really close and this is not factoring off the court cultural impact. how many disney channel episodes, GQ magazine covers, albums, movies has Duncan been part of?

and there ain't no way that a cuckold is making my personal top 5
disney channel episodes :roll:

[STATUTORY]

lets just put it this way, Kobe stepped out on his woman, Duncan let his woman step out on him

alpha, beta

:confusedshrug:

[SugarHill]

Better without a doubt:

LeBron
Durant
Chris Paul
Steph Curry
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony
Tony Parker
Russell Westbrook
Tim Duncan

Other players who were better:

Marc Gasol
Dwyane Wade
Blake Griffin
Dwight Howard
etc...
:oldlol:

[riseagainst]

Better without a doubt:

LeBron
Durant
Chris Paul
Steph Curry
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony
Tony Parker
Russell Westbrook
Tim Duncan

Other players who were better:

Marc Gasol
Dwyane Wade
Blake Griffin
Dwight Howard
etc...

ok you have gone too far.
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

[SOD 21]

Honestly, I just don't care that much because I simply categorize each of them as to the top 10 players of all time and there isn't that much separation between them.

I used to have Kobe one or two spots ahead of Duncan after the Lakers went to three straight finals from 2008 to 2010 and won consecutive championships. But now I probably would move Tim Duncan I slightly ahead because he's been to two additional finals since then and won another championship.

I'm at a point where I just want to appreciate great players instead of constantly criticizing all but one of them (insert whoever your favorite player is).

[chazzy]

Ignore Round. His entire basketball knowledge is comprised entirely of WS and RAPM rankings. Seriously

[SamuraiSWISH]

Umm ...

2009:
1) LeBron
2) Wade
3) Kobe

2010:
1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Wade

You can't give Kobe 2006 then disrespect LeBron, and Wade's superior individual seasons in 2009 and 2010.

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol:

Wade definitely wasn't better...

But you shouldn't laugh at Curry, Parker or Duncan :biggums:

Damn, Duncan turned back the clock and was perhaps the playoff's best Player on a Team literally 1 shot away from the title... Parker was an MVP candidate (Skip's top pick). Played amazingly well balanced Basketball, efficient, effective, scored when needed to, the entire Spurs' offensive engine...

And had this masterpiece to advance to the finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8SyHl_0KLE

37/6 (on 71%!)

Then scored one of the GOAT game winners in the finals, and dropped two insanely clutch shots in game 6 to put his Team on the brink of a title... Then Ray Allen happened.


And Curry was absolutely amazing... What I remember most from that season is him dropping 47 on LA in this game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG--YA80FsE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VeVKf2EHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq7u5xdSxVg

[SugarHill]

Umm ...

2009:
1) LeBron
2) Wade
3) Kobe

2010:
1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Wade

You can't give Kobe 2006 then disrespect LeBron, and Wade's superior individual seasons in 2009 and 2010.

You're talking to him like he's rational.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Ignore Round. His entire basketball knowledge is comprised entirely of WS and RAPM rankings. Seriously
I don't think I've cited WS once (seriously) in an argument.

[chazzy]

I don't think I've cited WS once (seriously) in an argument.
Ok, then you're reliant only on RAPM. I tried to give you some credit by throwing in 2 stats, but if you wanna live and die by just one that's fine by me :lol

[Anaximandro1]

Duncan is a tier above Kobe


ESPN (Total votes: 543,012) (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/poll/conversation/_/id/4587835)

Who has had the better career?

America

Duncan 65%

Kobe 35%

---------------------
California

Duncan 53%

Kobe 47%


Career

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bZuKEuvE0k4/VGzvi64qRSI/AAAAAAAADdY/NCpTEbNN-M4/s1600/1.jpg


2014/15

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gPMgM4zJGcM/VGzzXzUXMjI/AAAAAAAADd0/JofgC4-es8c/s1600/3.jpg


Duncan peak

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-t-GfV7k1U4s/UzdI1w7K9BI/AAAAAAAACsY/F7D84r1ycnc/s1600/8.jpg

[chazzy]

I have Duncan ahead of Kobe all time. They've been pretty close throughout their careers but Duncan's two final appearances and title made it a bit more definitive.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

:oldlol:

How on earth any of those names ridiculous?

Kobe 27.3/6.0/5.6 57% TS- 7th seed, 45-37, doesn't play in the playoffs


Steph Curry - 23/6.9/4.0 58.9% TS, 6th seed, 47-35, Plays extremely well in the playoffs. Took a worse team farther.

James Harden - 25.9/5.8/4.9 60% TS, 8th seed, 45 -37. Played pretty well in the playoffs. Took a clearly worse supporting cast as far as Kobe.

Tony Parker - Meant to put him in a "debatable" category i was gonna make underneath but decided not to. Ignore him.

Tim Duncan - How on earth is this one laughable? He should've won DPOY. Won 58 games, anchored the third best defense in the league, made the NBA finals where he played pretty damn well and was a Ray Allen 3 pointer from winning a title and probably an FMVP.

Marc Gasol - Although, Duncan should've won DPOY, Marc winning wasn't a travesty. he is one of the most impactful players in the league. made the wcf

Dwyane Wade - I don't feel like looking up more stats, but what did he average? 23/5/5 on like 60%TS playing solid defense in the regular season. He fell apart in the post season due to injuries, but so did Kobe.

Blake Griffin - This one is debatable but they won like 55 games Blake played pretty well in the regular season, and sucked in the playoffs. Then again Kobe didn't even play in the playoffs.

Dwight Howard - He was playing at pretty much current Rockets level post-all star break. Was a defensive force.

[tpols]

I have Duncan ahead of Kobe all time. They've been pretty close throughout their careers but Duncan's two final appearances and title made it a bit more definitive.

If anything the last two finals have shown that duncan's had really, really elite help his entire career. People are so used to doing the first/second option comparisons.. but duncans help transcends that. Hes running with a euro all star team and GOAT coach.Could average 10ppg and have his team still win.:lol


Kawhi + Parker + Manu + Diaw + elite shooting and all orchestrated by GOAT coach > Peak Shaq + Derek Fisher + Phil.

[chazzy]

If anything the last two finals have shown that duncan's had really, really elite help his entire career. People are so used to doing the first/second option comparisons.. but duncans help transcends that. Hes running with a euro all star team and GOAT coach.Could average 10ppg and have his team still win.:lol


Kawhi + Parker + Manu + Diaw + elite shooting and all orchestrated by GOAT coach > Peak Shaq + Derek Fisher + Phil.
He had excellent help, no doubt. I just didn't expect his 2013 resurgence

[chazzy]

Dwight Howard - He was playing at pretty much current Rockets level post-all star break. Was a defensive force.
So Kobe doesn't get credit for post all star break play? He was putting up 29/6/7 on 58 TS%

Like I said, the only way you can say he was 10-20 is if you're including playoffs since he didn't play.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Ok, then you're reliant only on RAPM. I tried to give you some credit by throwing in 2 stats, but if you wanna live and die by just one that's fine by me :lol

No. I use PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG, TS% just like everyone else too. RAPM just happens to be the most mathematically sound way of measuring a player's impact. It's not flawless obviously, but if I'm forced to use just 1 stat I'd choose it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So Kobe doesn't get credit for post all star break play? He was putting up 29/6/7 on 58 TS%

Like I said, the only way you can say he was 10-20 is if you're including playoffs since he didn't play.

If we're talking just regular season he has case for like the 7+ range. #3 is just absurd.

[chazzy]

If we're talking just regular season he has case for like the 7+ range. #3 is just absurd.
Never said #3. I had him at 5 or so.

I think you're overrating the hell out of the negative impact of Kobe's defense. SGs in general don't affect their team's defense too much one way or another IMO. He was an even worse defender in 2011 when they were 6th in the league. You're telling me that there's a significant enough difference between him and guys like Harden, Melo, Curry, Parker that he causes his teams to be noticeably worse on that end?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Never said #3. I had him at 5 or so.

I think you're overrating the hell out of the negative impact of Kobe's defense. SGs in general don't affect their team's defense too much one way or another IMO. He was an even worse defender in 2011 when they were 6th in the league. You're telling me that there's a significant enough difference between him and guys like Harden, Melo, Curry, Parker that he causes his teams to be noticeably worse on that end?

He was on a similar level to Melo and Harden, I would say. PG defense is even less important than SG defense. He was worse on offense than either of them though. BTW not really relevant, Harden > Melo IMO.

[ArbitraryWater]

Never said #3. I had him at 5 or so.

I think you're overrating the hell out of the negative impact of Kobe's defense. SGs in general don't affect their team's defense too much one way or another IMO. He was an even worse defender in 2011 when they were 6th in the league. You're telling me that there's a significant enough difference between him and guys like Harden, Melo, Curry, Parker that he causes his teams to be noticeably worse on that end?

I can't believe you're defending his defense when I know you watched just about every Laker game in 2013 I'm sure AND even LA based Newspapers were ripping his defensive effort, for like the first time ever...

[chazzy]

I can't believe you're defending his defense when I know you watched just about every Laker game in 2013 I'm sure AND even LA based Newspapers were ripping his defensive effort, for like the first time ever...
I'm not saying he wasn't a bad defender. I'm saying the impact of it on his team is overstated, because I saw him play even worse defense on a bum knee in 2011 and the team was 6th in the league. Team defense is a product of both the players' abilities and coach's scheme/gameplan. There's a reason why those seemingly talentless Cavs teams back in the day were great on defense

[tpols]

He was on a similar level to Melo and Harden, I would say. PG defense is even less important than SG defense. He was worse on offense than either of them though. BTW not really relevant, Harden > Melo IMO.

Melo scores 29 ppg on 56TS with 2.6 assists per game
Kobe scores 27 ppg on 57TS with 6 assists per game

So Kobe is more efficient, and more than doubles melo in playmaking and passing ability. Care to explain how they are equal offensively? Surely you dont think an extra 2 ppg is worth more than 3.4 assists and an extra percentage in efficiency... as a bran stan and all.. right?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Melo scores 29 ppg on 56TS with 2.6 assists per game
Kobe scores 27 ppg on 57TS with 6 assists per game

So Kobe is more efficient, and more than doubles melo in playmaking and p[assing ability. Care to explain how they are equal offensively? Surely you dont think an 2 ppg is worth more than 3.4 assists and an extra percentage in efficiency... as a bran stan and all.. right?
I never made a purely stat based case for Melo being better.

However, adjusting for pace:

Melo: 30.5 ppg, with 2.7 apg
Kobe: 27 ppg with 6 apg

Also Melo would be arounf 8 rpg...which is something

Still, based purely off statlines, you're right Kobe's was slightly better. I'd give Melo the nod as the better player because he took a worse cast farther than Kobe did and seemed to fit in better with his teammates. i don't even really like Melo as a player.

[chazzy]

I never made a purely stat based case for Melo being better.

However, adjusting for pace:

Melo: 30.5 ppg, with 2.7 apg
Kobe: 27 ppg with 6 apg

Melo's play style is ideal in a slower paced, isolation style anyway though.. you can't just crank up the pace and expect linear production. We actually just saw him on the 5th fastest team with D'antoni the year before and he was worse.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Melo's play style is ideal in a slower paced, isolation style anyway though.. you can't just crank up the pace and expect linear production

Yes but you do realize that if the Knicks play at a certain pace it is = the average of the pace the opposing team played against them. Thus it reduces the opposing teams pace as well. So Melo's actual scoring impact is linearly higher.

Example:

Player A plays at pace of 50.
Player B plays at pace of 100

Player A scores 20 ppg
Player B scores 30 ppg

Well you're probably right in that Player A's scoring wouldn't progress linearly to 40 ppg at 100 pace, but that's still what his scoring impact is equivalent to.

[riseagainst]

Yes but you do realize that if the Knicks play at a certain pace it is = the average of the pace the opposing team played against them. Thus it reduces the opposing teams pace as well. So Melo's actual scoring impact is linearly higher.

Example:

Player A plays at pace of 50.
Player B plays at pace of 100

Player A scores 20 ppg
Player B scores 30 ppg

Well you're probably right in that Player A's scoring wouldn't progress linearly to 40 ppg at 100 pace, but that's still what his scoring impact is equivalent to.

but why do all the hypotheticals and projections? Why not just compare what they ACTUALLY did?
:confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Yes but you do realize that if the Knicks play at a certain pace it is = the average of the pace the opposing team played against them. Thus it reduces the opposing teams pace as well. So Melo's actual scoring impact is linearly higher.

Example:

Player A plays at pace of 50.
Player B plays at pace of 100

Player A scores 20 ppg
Player B scores 30 ppg

Well you're probably right in that Player A's scoring wouldn't progress linearly to 40 ppg at 100 pace, but that's still what his scoring impact is equivalent to.
I understand what pace is and how to adjust for pace. You're looking at this in purely mathematical terms. Melo's game is best suited in a slower paced system in which he's allowed to take his time creating a shot for himself. In the year before, 2012, he played with D'Antoni and was on the 5th fastest team in the league, and his numbers were significantly worse. So no, you cannot linearly adjust Melo's numbers by pace.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't think Melo's defense was as bad that year... I also don't believe he was a cancer as teammate.

I don't know how you can struggle so damn much with Howard (Hurt but still Dwight Howard, borderline all-star), Gasol, Nash (Who was hurt, but put up the same #'s as in his previous Suns season where they earned him an all-star selection)...

Those pieces should actually fit very well on together on a Basketball court as well.

As long as you allow Nash to handle the ball, give Dwight touches and shots, (Gasol was misused by the Coach), and have Kobe drop an efficient 25 while playing DEFENSE....

They had a losing record in the games they played together, too.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

but why do all the hypotheticals and projections? Why not just compare what they ACTUALLY did?
:confusedshrug:

So you think the impact of Elgin baylor's 37-14 is equivalent impact wise to somebody doing that with today's pace?:oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I understand what pace is and how to adjust for pace. You're looking at this in purely mathematical terms. Melo's game is best suited in a slower paced system in which he's allowed to take his time creating a shot for himself. In the year before, 2012, he played with D'Antoni and was on the 5th fastest team in the league, and his numbers were significantly worse. So no, you cannot linearly adjust Melo's numbers by pace.

Except I'm not literally saying he would score 30.5 ppg with D'antoni. I'm saying the impact of his scoring on that pace is equivalent to that.

[Smoke117]

I just started reading but 2000 Kobe better than 2000 Grant Hill is the first :roll:

Kobe over Hill and Zo made me bust out laughing. Mourning was a top 2-3 player in the league in 2000 along with Shaq and Duncan. (likely 2nd in the league after Shaq. He was peaking.) I doubt this fool even saw him play in 2000. Kobe's at the bottom of a top 10 in 2000 below Malone, Garnett, Kidd etc.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

So let me get this skraight, Duncan has similar accolades to Kobe because he had elite help his entire career, but yet Kobe is the one who had a top 5 player in the league alongside him half of his career? And Duncan rarely even had anyone in the top 10 alongside him in his career? Straight up trolling. No idea how you're not banned yet.

:coleman:

Then to top it off, Kobe only started appearing higher on the rankings after Duncan was well out of his prime and Kobe entered his. C'mon, son. Not to mention, we got stans in here cherry picking stats and listing only points/assists/TS% for Kobe instead of also listing rebounds, defensive rating, FG%, etc.

:roll:

No shame whatsoever.

[riseagainst]

So you think the impact of Elgin baylor's 37-14 is equivalent impact wise to somebody doing that with today's pace?:oldlol:

that was decades ago. With inferior competition. But you just "adjusted for pace" for 2 players from the same year in the same league at the same time. That's so desperate. Nice red herring though.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

that was decades ago. With inferior competition. But you just "adjusted for pace" for 2 players from the same year in the same league at the same time. That's so desperate. Nice red herring though.
No it isn't. I've already explained why I adjusted for pace. Read it.

[boldarblood]

and there ain't no way that a cuckold is making my personal top 5

so your not a serious basketball fan, good to know.