Pistons-Pacers Brawl: 10 Years Ago

[Soundwave]

Maybe I missed the thread but no mention of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQIIOWPNYM0

David Stern's worst nightmare. I remember watching the game and I remember coming on this board after and people actually thought Artest might only get like a 5-10 game suspension or something :oldlol: :oldlol:

I remember people said I was crazy when I stated Artest would be banned for the year at least.

[Rake2204]

Not a great moment in Detroit sports history. The debates that came along with the incident made my brain explode (ex: "If someone walked down the street and poured beer on my head I'd start attacking fans at random too" or "Ben Wallace responded to the intentional foul to his head from Artest and Artest went into the crowd after that, so Ben Wallace should be suspended for 70 games too.")

I recall the ESPN team having a terrible first response as well. It was as if it was not possible to hand out blame to more than one person. It either had to be all Artest's fault, all Wallace's fault, all John Green's fault or the entire city of Detroit's fault. Very frustrating to watch and hear. I felt at least a slight amount of vindication in the NBA's punishments, which seemed logical in the face of a lot of illogic.

Regarding the actual incident unfolding though, it's one of the most unbelievable things I've ever seen in my life. To go from watching the tail end of a blowout Indiana victory, to seeing Ron Artest barreling into the crowd, it was surreal. There's certain things you are accustomed to seeing from NBA players in uniform (including fights on-court). But to watch him cross that threshold, running into the stands at random - the uncertainty of the insanity that was taking place - it was incredible. I do not think that feeling can be matched by those who did not see it firsthand.

[tpols]

Its crazy.. Artest just goes and lays down on the scorers table as an angry ben wallace storms toward him. :lol Fkin nuts.

[fragokota]

That was pretty serious even for soccer standards :oldlol:

[Dro]

................

[Rake2204]

Its crazy.. Artest just goes and lays down on the scorers table as an angry ben wallace storms toward him. :lol Fkin nuts.I know this is going to sound crazy, but I often felt like I knew what Artest was thinking in a lot of those weird situations - or at least what his plan was for what he wanted to portray. He was a big fan of doing bad things in a manner that made them look accidental or completely circumstantial (like the Harden "elbow celebration").

When he laid on the scorer's table in Detroit, even before he jumped into the crowd, I felt pretty strongly that he was a ticking time bomb, trying to outwardly display a sense of cool for two reasons 1) For his own good and 2) As a strategic means by which he could attempt to profess his own innocence, as if to say, "I don't know his problem is, I didn't do anything at all and he just went crazy for no reason."

It's actually kind of a childish response. When my brother and I would fight, I'd do the same thing - try to find some way to illustrate a false sense of cool so as to draw all the attention to the negative response of my older sibling.

Either way, I thought him laying on the table was a precursor to something crazy, but I had no idea it'd be that.

[fragokota]

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I often felt like I knew what Artest was thinking in a lot of those weird situations - or at least what his plan was for what he wanted to portray. He was a big fan of doing bad things in a manner that made them look accidental or completely circumstantial (like the Harden "elbow celebration").

When he laid on the scorer's table in Detroit, even before he jumped into the crowd, I felt pretty strongly that he was a ticking time bomb, trying to outwardly display a sense of cool for two reasons 1) For his own good and 2) a strategic means by which to attempt to profess his own innocence, as if to say, "I don't know his problem is, I didn't do anything at all and he just went crazy for no reason."

It's actually kind of a childish response. When my brother and I would fight, I'd do the same thing - try to find some way to illustrate a false sense of cool so as to draw all the attention to the negative response of my older sibling.

Either way, I thought him laying on the table was a precursor to something crazy, but I had no idea it'd be that.


If he was smart enough to make that thought he wouldn't have attacked in the first place. The guy is a retard.

[Rake2204]

If he was smart enough to make that thought he wouldn't have attacked in the first place. The guy is a retard.Not to delve too deeply, but I think the amount of thought or intelligence it takes to veil an emotion or action is a little overrated. I've worked with low-achieving elementary students who were even good at it.

It's a pretty straightforward train of thought. "If I want do something bad to someone and make them upset, what if I did it while performing a casual action, so people wouldn't be able to tell I did it on purpose?"

It's a simple task, and onlookers are often very, very quick to pull the line of, "What do you mean he pulled that on purpose? You can clearly tell in the replay that he was just contesting the shot. You think you could contest a shot and hit that player with his offhand on purpose?" Those onlookers make for good cover, because people do that type of stuff and it is not very difficult.

[oarabbus]

I just wish I could have seen it live. I know in the long run it was real bad for the league but in the short term (as in the following week) it took over the national media :lol

[DirkNowitzki41]

I remember watching the Heat game that day and Wade got the game winner I think it was against the Jazz...

Went to sportscenter to see them talk about it and they were just talking about the brawl all day :lol

[ProfessorMurder]

Pacers would've won that year if not for that.

1 year suspension was harsh in my opinion. Yeah he went after a guy but he was provoked, and after the initial stuff it's basically self defense against a crowd.

If that dude never dumped the beer it wouldn't have happened.

[Asiantastic]

Was the game actually finalized? Like was the win given to the Pacers?

[Haymaker]

IMO Stephen Jackson was key in that shit escalating further. You see the whole Pistons teammates just wanted to restrain Wallace, but jackson started with his thuggish attitude and acted like he was the one who got pushed.

[Smoke117]

**** Ron Artest that piece of shit savage. He's a huge reason the rules are so stringent and the game is so soft these days.

[Rake2204]

Pacers would've won that year if not for that.

1 year suspension was harsh in my opinion. Yeah he went after a guy but he was provoked, and after the initial stuff it's basically self defense against a crowd.

If that dude never dumped the beer it wouldn't have happened.I felt the suspension was valid. It's close to being the worst thing an NBA basketball player could do at a game, particularly from a business perspective. Not to mention, Artest was a repeat-repeat-repeat offender.

The man who dumped the beer should have been identified and removed. I think fans who did that often were removed, but it felt a little lax. It's not the first time a player had been hit with a drink.

I remember a Detroit Tiger (I want to say Brandon Inge or Robert Fick) getting ejected a few years prior and getting multiple drinks poured on him in Chicago. I have a memory of him putting his arms up and letting them rain down, but I could be imagining that.

Edit: Did not think I'd be able to find it because MLB kind locks down YouTube, but here it is: 1:00 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1-pc9JdJg4

Either way, lobbing a drink was never right and it deserved to be punished, but it most certainly never, ever, ever, ever warrants a professional basketball player to leap into the crowd, grab folks at random, and incite a riot. Had the drink fallen on Artest's chest and he was as chilled out as he was trying to portray himself to be, he wouldn't have budged an inch. He was not at all harmed. And again, worst case scenario, even if he was harmed, one can never respond in that manner.


Was the game actually finalized? Like was the win given to the Pacers?Yes. A win was awarded to the Pacers. They were up by double digits with less than a minute remaining. It's a valid question though. I was just looking at the play-by-play the other day. It just skips to 0:00 after the Artest foul was committed.

[NuggetsFan]

Either way, lobbing a drink was never right and it deserved to be punished, but it most certainly never, ever, ever, ever warrants a professional basketball player to leap into the crowd, grab folks at random, and incite a riot. Had the drink fallen on Artest's chest and he was as chilled out as he was trying to portray himself to be, he wouldn't have budged an inch. He was not at all harmed. And again, worst case scenario, even if he was harmed, one can never respond in that manner.


I think that the whole Artest was pretending to be "chill" thing is absurd. He was laying down on the scorers table. It wasn't an act or some tactical move. He actually just looks really tired, really for the entire video. Like he's in some kinda daze, even the announcer points it out saying he doesn't like the look in Artest's eyes :oldlol:

Stupid and unacceptable by Artest. He just has a quick fuse. Got hit with a drink and snapped. Jackson was worse IMO because he just kept escalating things. Artest is just crazy which we knew before this and come to know after it.

Wallace started it with the huge overreaction, Artest is crazy, Jackson/O'Neal etc. escalated it, and all those Detroit fans throwing shit are idiots. Entertaining even if it was brutal for the game.

[Dro]

I think that the whole Artest was pretending to be "chill" thing is absurd. He was laying down on the scorers table. It wasn't an act or some tactical move. He actually just looks really tired, really for the entire video. Like he's in some kinda daze, even the announcer points it out saying he doesn't like the look in Artest's eyes :oldlol:

Stupid and unacceptable by Artest. He just has a quick fuse. Got hit with a drink and snapped. Jackson was worse IMO because he just kept escalating things. Artest is just crazy which we knew before this and come to know after it.

Wallace started it with the huge overreaction, Artest is crazy, Jackson/O'Neal etc. escalated it, and all those Detroit fans throwing shit are idiots. Entertaining even if it was brutal for the game.
You explained better than even I could have...You're pretty much on point with all your points except him being tired. He was laying on the scorers moreso like "ok, I'm trying to stay over here because if I fight him, I'll be tossed"....It wasn't because he was tired, I've never thought that....But he still didn't deserve to get the drink thrown on him...Its a black eye for the league and cost us a chance at a title but at the time, I was still happy he went and tried to beat the hell out of that dude and I was glad his teammates had his back, even if they were ill-advised....

[Rake2204]

I think that the whole Artest was pretending to be "chill" thing is absurd. He was laying down on the scorers table. It wasn't an act or some tactical move. He actually just looks really tired, really for the entire video. Like he's in some kinda daze, even the announcer points it out saying he doesn't like the look in Artest's eyes :oldlol:

Stupid and unacceptable by Artest. He just has a quick fuse. Got hit with a drink and snapped. Jackson was worse IMO because he just kept escalating things. Artest is just crazy which we knew before this and come to know after it.

Wallace started it with the huge overreaction, Artest is crazy, Jackson/O'Neal etc. escalated it, and all those Detroit fans throwing shit are idiots. Entertaining even if it was brutal for the game.We'll have to agree to disagree on that front, regarding what Artest was going for by laying on the scorer's table. I think him trying to put on the headset only added to that perception. I thought this portion from the Grantland article put it well:
Montieth: In a way, he provoked it passively by lying down on that table. He picked up a set of radio headphones like he was going to talk to people back home. He was clowning around a bit too much. In his mind, he was saying, “Look, I’m not doing anything here. I’m trying to be good.” It didn’t work out that way.

Boyle: We had a headset out because we were anticipating bringing a player over for a postgame interview. We had known Ronnie for a while — there was no way we were going to put an open mic in front of Ron Artest in that situation. The mic wasn’t live.

Wilson: It was almost like an “I’m so cool” thing to sort of disassociate yourself and act above everything. Which I think is how the crowd took it.As for Wallace, it was wrong for him to respond in the manner he did, undoubtedly, but I'd hardly say he started it. It sort of oversimplifies things in my opinion to do so.

In truth, all of this may have started two years earlier, when Corliss threw a ball at Jermaine O'Neal after a hard foul and punches were thrown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu4CYLYLTGw). Then, there was the dog fight of a series in '04, with the culminating Artest forearm to Hamilton's face (which was nothing if not stupid to even half attempt on Artest's part, when facing elimination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYehOBuP4k8)

As a result, things had been brewing for a while and everyone was on alert. Beyond anything Artest did to Hamilton, everyone on the Pistons side of the ball was well aware of how Artest got down. As such, hearing someone tell Ron he could "get one", and Ben Wallace claiming that Ron told him he was going to hit him prior, probably put Ben on double super extra high alert.


Stephen Jackson (guard/forward, Pacers): [Toward] the end of the game, I recall somebody on the team told Ron, “You can get one now.” I heard it. I think somebody was shooting a free throw. Somebody said to Ron, “You can get one now,” meaning you can lay a foul on somebody who he had beef with in the game.

Ben Wallace (forward/center, Pistons): He told me he was going to hit me, and he did it. That was just one of those things. It happened in the heat of the battle.So, when a pointless foul is committed and Wallace is hit in the back of the head, far away from the ball, there was likely little to no doubt as to intent, particularly considering the person committing the foul. Was Ben Wallace wrong for his response? Yes. Did he start it? No. The problem between these two teams had already existed for a while.

And even on this particular night, the fallacy of laying such blame on Wallace is that we could just as well take it one step further. Couldn't we say Artest would be to blame for "getting one" and hitting Wallace on purpose with his off-hand? Even then, I believe that would be a case of oversimplification.

Long story short, there are a ton of people to blame, dating all the way back to Corliss Williamson, Jon Barry, and Brad Miller. Ben Wallace shares culpability just as well. But no one aside from Ron Artest himself is to blame for the choice he made to leap into a crowd and begin a riot after a plastic cup was lobbed upon his chest.

[NuggetsFan]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that front, regarding what Artest was going for by laying on the scorer's table. I think him trying to put on the headset only added to that perception. I thought this portion from the Grantland article put it well: As for Wallace, it was wrong for him to respond in the manner he did, undoubtedly, but I'd hardly say he started it. It sort of oversimplifies things in my opinion to do so.

That article is crazy IMO. The crowd took it as Artest trying to be "I'm so cool"? Not even close. They just tossed drinks/shit at the away team like thousands of other fans have done before. Difference was the guy they hit laying on the scorers table is actually crazy and went into the stands. It's not this long drawn out thing your trying to make it out to be. Things like that happen all the time. Difference was Artest is crazy/Jackson thinks he's a gang member etc. and Ben Wallace's retaliation was overboard.

Artest clearly was trying to get under Wallace's skin and he did. He than lied down. Detroit fans were morons and tossed drinks at people. In a situation like that everyone has there share of blame. Wallace, Artest, the fans, Jackson etc. It wasn't some tactical move your making it out to be like snicker snicker I'm going to start a huge brawl by going to lie down. Artest is actually just crazy.

I'd say Wallace started it because millions of cheap fouls happen all the time. Tons of players do what Artest did. Wallace overreacted and drove him back and went at him pretty good. Take a stupid foul at the other end or push him or whatever, Wallace started the overreaction and Artest/Jackson etc. took it to an entirely different level. Wallace's reaction isn't a normal one and with a normal reaction that entire situation probably doesn't take place. Everyone deserves blame but Wallace IMO gets the first man in penalty.

[tontoz]

I remember watching that game live with a friend. We were in stunned silence until they showed Jermaine Oneal's sliding punch where he knocked out a fan. Then we started laughing and cheering.

[PsychoBe]

espn during the feed was like "we warn you, what you're about to see might disturb you" :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

It wasn't some tactical move your making it out to be like snicker snicker I'm going to start a huge brawl by going to lie down. Artest is actually just crazy.
.

Idk.. I agree with rake that he was pulling a Rodman.. Like Ben Wallace is coming at him all pissed, but artests acting like :sleeping.. Non chalant, like what are you gonna do? Putting himself in a defenseless position as one of the scariest guys in the league comes at him as the ultimate 'I'm not scared of you'.

[ProfessorMurder]

I felt the suspension was valid. It's close to being the worst thing an NBA basketball player could do at a game, particularly from a business perspective. Not to mention, Artest was a repeat-repeat-repeat offender.

Either way, lobbing a drink was never right and it deserved to be punished, but it most certainly never, ever, ever, ever warrants a professional basketball player to leap into the crowd, grab folks at random, and incite a riot. Had the drink fallen on Artest's chest and he was as chilled out as he was trying to portray himself to be, he wouldn't have budged an inch. He was not at all harmed. And again, worst case scenario, even if he was harmed, one can never respond in that manner.

Before that Artest's biggest suspension was 4 games for flipping off someone in Miami. He missed a few for techs or various elbows and things. Escalating from 4 to 86 is absurd.

Throwing a drink on someone is deserving of a punch in the face. If you throw a drink on someone on the street or in a bar, you're playing the odds and might be attacked. Artest took it too far but you can't expect every person to react well to that. That is scum level behavior by the instigator.

Half a season at most is fair. Look at the dude on Charlotte, guilty of beating a chick, 11 games. Artest is attacked with a drink mid-heated game and punches a guy, 86 games. That's bullshit.

[Rake2204]

That article is crazy IMO. The crowd took it as Artest trying to be "I'm so cool"? Not even close. They just tossed drinks/shit at the away team like thousands of other fans have done before. Difference was the guy they hit laying on the scorers table is actually crazy and went into the stands. It's not this long drawn out thing your trying to make it out to be. Things like that happen all the time. Difference was Artest is crazy/Jackson thinks he's a gang member etc. and Ben Wallace's retaliation was overboard.

Artest clearly was trying to get under Wallace's skin and he did. He than lied down. Detroit fans were morons and tossed drinks at people. In a situation like that everyone has there share of blame. Wallace, Artest, the fans, Jackson etc. It wasn't some tactical move your making it out to be like snicker snicker I'm going to start a huge brawl by going to lie down. Artest is actually just crazy.We shall not know for sure what Artest's intent was when he lay on that scorers table so again, I think we're pretty much at an impasse there. There's not much that can be proven one way or another. The best I could do was find his post-altercation actions relatable to things I've seen done before from others, things I've seen from Ron, and things I've done myself.

And to be honest, as a Pistons fan sitting at home, that was pretty close to how I interpreted his action at that time. It kind of felt like he was mocking the Pistons by playing a role in starting an altercation, then trying to act like nothing was wrongly, laying down on a scorer's table and pretending to give an interview to a TV team by grabbing the headset and putting it on.


I'd say Wallace started it because millions of cheap fouls happen all the time. Tons of players do what Artest did. Wallace overreacted and drove him back and went at him pretty good. Take a stupid foul at the other end or push him or whatever, Wallace started the overreaction and Artest/Jackson etc. took it to an entirely different level. Wallace's reaction isn't a normal one and with a normal reaction that entire situation probably doesn't take place. Everyone deserves blame but Wallace IMO gets the first man in penalty.A cheap foul happening all the time doesn't mean the cheap foul didn't start it. The suggested logic here is that if Wallace never overreacted, then the riot doesn't occur. Yet, if the dirty foul never occurs, then Wallace never overreacts. And if no one tells Ron he can get someone, maybe the dirty foul doesn't occur.

As I mentioned before, the root of this issue between these teams actually likely extended back multiple years, so it's quite difficult for me to arbitrarily pick one random act and lay the blame on that person for Artest opting to leap into the stands.

As far as the article being crazy goes, again, you're welcome to your opinion. However, I'm not sure there's much more we can ask for than first-person accounts of virtually every single person involved in the incident that day.

[NuggetsFan]

We shall not know for sure what Artest's intent was when he lay on that scorers table so again, I think we're pretty much at an impasse there. There's not much that can be proven one way or another. The best I could do was find his post-altercation actions relatable to things I've seen done before from others, things I've seen from Ron, and things I've done myself.


Fair enough.


And to be honest, as a Pistons fan sitting at home, that was pretty close to how I interpreted his action at that time. It kind of felt like he was mocking the Pistons by playing a role in starting an altercation, then trying to act like nothing was wrongly, laying down on a scorer's table and pretending to give an interview to a TV team by grabbing the headset and putting it on.


I can't get behind this. Some of the fans may have never even noticed Artest laying down with the scrum in full effect still. Giving way too much credit to ignorant fans. Stupid fans do stupid things across all sports. Artest laying down didn't all of a sudden make everybody start throwing shit which is why people continued to throw things across the stadium when they were going into the tunnel. Guy still tosses his drink at Artest if he's standing up probably.


A cheap foul happening all the time doesn't mean the cheap foul didn't start it. The suggested logic here is that if Wallace never overreacted, then the riot doesn't occur. Yet, if the dirty foul never occurs, then Wallace never overreacts. And if no one tells Ron he can get someone, maybe the dirty foul doesn't occur.


One thing is apart of the game, the other isn't. Cheap fouls are in the NBA, it's impossible to remove. What isn't apart of the game, and what can and has been removed is a player overreacting like Wallace did. Players don't react like Wallace did because they are smart enough to know it can escalate situations to a degree that can destroy there careers. So you get fake tough guy stuff and light pushing and the occasional serious incident with an elbow or something. Yet fouls like what Artest did? Happens all the time.

Agree to disagree tho to each his own.

[NuggetsFan]

Idk.. I agree with rake that he was pulling a Rodman.. Like Ben Wallace is coming at him all pissed, but artests acting like :sleeping.. Non chalant, like what are you gonna do? Putting himself in a defenseless position as one of the scariest guys in the league comes at him as the ultimate 'I'm not scared of you'.

Fights don't happen in the NBA. It's completely possible and IMO likely Artest is laying down saying whatever because he's assuming the situation is coming to an end. People had done a pretty good job breaking it up if it wasn't for Jackson antagonizing everybody and further escalating things.

Defenseless position is kinda irrelevant. How many full out punches have been thrown in the past 20 years? How many of those mini scrums have took place? I mean even in the NY/Denver brawl the second Melo suckered Collins he was like oh shit what have I done and got out of there. Nobody wants to toss there careers away. Most of what happens in the NBA is just posturing.

[Rake2204]

Before that Artest's biggest suspension was 4 games for flipping off someone in Miami. He missed a few for techs or various elbows and things. Escalating from 4 to 86 is absurd.

Throwing a drink on someone is deserving of a punch in the face. If you throw a drink on someone on the street or in a bar, you're playing the odds and might be attacked. Artest took it too far but you can't expect every person to react well to that. That is scum level behavior by the instigator.

Half a season at most is fair. Look at the dude on Charlotte, guilty of beating a chick, 11 games. Artest is attacked with a drink mid-heated game and punches a guy, 86 games. That's bullshit.I think Artest ran out of benefit-of-the-doubt well before his Palace incident. That was primarily what I was saying. I think it was worthy of a year-long suspension regardless. I was just saying his past likely made the decision even easier.

Also, I feel there is a monumental difference between what we feel someone deserves versus what is acceptable retaliatory behavior. The man who threw the cup was wrong and deserved whatever legal action comes with what he did (assault?)

What the NBA did with their suspension is strongly reiterate that they can expect every NBA player to respond to such an action a certain way. It's fascinating how quickly behavior can change when its understood one's livelihood is at stake.

The NBA, as a league, organization, and/or business could not have afforded to err on the side of a light sentence, considering what happened, who it involved (the fans who pay the tickets), and where it happened (on national television, dominating discussion across America).

The league did not condone the actions of the cup thrower (he was banned for life from The Palace and served 30 days in jail). A ban is about all they could do with him. But they could do something about making absolutely certain they made a strong statement about what they will never, ever tolerate from their players.

Sidenote: Ron had a litany of issues and in fact, he even once threw a water bottle at a fan. From 2003: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZpja5bNYBc. Normally, I'd agree, an escalation from 4 to 73 games seems steep. It'd take something absolutely crazy and unprecedented to warrant such a jump. And that's exactly what we got.

[tpols]

Fights don't happen in the NBA. It's completely possible and IMO likely Artest is laying down saying whatever because he's assuming the situation is coming to an end. People had done a pretty good job breaking it up if it wasn't for Jackson antagonizing everybody and further escalating things.

Defenseless position is kinda irrelevant. How many full out punches have been thrown in the past 20 years? How many of those mini scrums have took place? I mean even in the NY/Denver brawl the second Melo suckered Collins he was like oh shit what have I done and got out of there. Nobody wants to toss there careers away. Most of what happens in the NBA is just posturing.
Fights don't happen in the NBA.. That's kinda the point. Artest knows it will be more of the usual.. Shoving trash talking etc. Just decides to lay down as an act of intimidation.. Again 'what are you gonna do?' like you said his chance of getting hit was very low..

It's just like Bulls Rodman and brickowski.. How he stood facing him with both arms behind his back.

[Rake2204]

I can't get behind this. Some of the fans may have never even noticed Artest laying down with the scrum in full effect still. Giving way too much credit to ignorant fans. Stupid fans do stupid things across all sports. Artest laying down didn't all of a sudden make everybody start throwing shit which is why people continued to throw things across the stadium when they were going into the tunnel. Guy still tosses his drink at Artest if he's standing up probably.I can't speak for every other single fan out there but I imagine if that's how I was feeling at home, there were likely others who felt similarly within the Palace (as Tom Wilson also suggested).

Artest was the focal point of the entire altercation (along with Wallace). People did not forget him from his series a few months earlier and as mentioned - he already had a heck of a reputation for his antics. I have much doubt that he escaped much of anyone's field of vision or interest during that scrum.

That said, I agree that fans do stupid things all the time in all sports. However, him laying the scorer's table presented an unusually easy target for a careless lobbing of one's drink. In contrast, if Artest wasn't laying down, I don't think that drink gets released. The throw is still wrong though, even if it was in the vane of "Wanna lay down and play it cool after hitting one of our players? Okay here ya go hotshot" (followed by cup lob).

With sincerity, do you truly not believe that an opposing player splayed across the scorer's table after inciting an altercation may have not increased the likelihood that someone could see him as a target for their beverage?

As for the drinks thrown in the tunnel, still very wrong, but all bets were perceived off at that point. My initial emotional reaction, again - sitting at home, was that if the Pacers were going to plow into the crowd and begin grabbing and punching Pistons fans at complete random, what did they think the response was going to be?

The resulting perception of "arena vs. Pacers" is the exact reason it's so imperative that certain boundaries are never crossed - even if someone catches a cup on their sweaty jersey. That brawl was just an awful mess of wrong from every direction (players, fans, chair-throwers).


One thing is apart of the game, the other isn't. Cheap fouls are in the NBA, it's impossible to remove. What isn't apart of the game, and what can and has been removed is a player overreacting like Wallace did. Players don't react like Wallace did because they are smart enough to know it can escalate situations to a degree that can destroy there careers. So you get fake tough guy stuff and light pushing and the occasional serious incident with an elbow or something. Yet fouls like what Artest did? Happens all the time.

Agree to disagree tho to each his own.Cheap and/or intentional fouls aren't supposed to be a part of the game, which is why they have flagrant foul labels. Marking a guy, and following through on that mark, should not be a part of the game, and it's most certainly not sportsmanlike or legal.

Again though, that does not give the go-ahead for a player to respond in the manner Wallace did. But Artest had illegal intent, and that does not belong in the game any more than what Wallace did.

[PistonsFan#21]

did the fan getting punched got any money from that incident?

[Rake2204]

did the fan getting punched got any money from that incident?Which one? I do not recall any fans getting anything out of the incident, but I am not for certain on that.

The ones punched on the court... one by Ron and then the Falcon Punch from O'Neal - I think those fans may have tried to press charges but were rightfully turned down because they were the ones trespassing on the court creating a threat.

All of that is off really shaky memory though. I could be wrong on each aspect.

The dude who threw the cup got 30 days in jail, for the punches he was landing on Artest while Ron was grabbing the wrong guy, not for the cup toss.

[PistonsFan#21]

Which one? I do not recall any fans getting anything out of the incident, but I am not for certain on that.

The ones punched on the court... one by Ron and then the Falcon Punch from O'Neal - I think those fans may have tried to press charges but were rightfully turned down because they were the ones trespassing on the court creating a threat.

All of that is off really shaky memory though. I could be wrong on each aspect.

The dude who threw the cup got 30 days in jail, for the punches he was landing on Artest while Ron was grabbing the wrong guy, not for the cup toss.

oh ok i was mostly referring to the first guy that was attacked by Artest in the stands. I didnt expect the fans that were on the court to get paid anything since they were involved in the brawl themselves

[Dro]

VERY INTERESTING READ FROM DAVID HARRISON'S BLOG........HIS VERSION OF HOW THINGS HAPPENED.......

[QUOTE]June 28th 2004 was supposed to be the best day of my life. In that moment I was almost 22 years old and sitting in a downtown Nashville hotel room with my family waiting on David J Stern to say my name. That moment came as fast as a man with whiskey dick. I remember looking at my family and thinking how will I take care of us if I don

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Continued.....
[QUOTE]To this day, If i see Bilias on tv commenting on his

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And an expert about how much they DID have to pay out....


I was so afraid that I would be put in a prison and then sued into bankruptcy. I began to drink heavily and the stress of the situation was causing me to snap. I would see cars following me, people too but thanks to the lawyer, who represented the rapper Eminem and the lead singer from the group “The White Strips”. He told me that I will be fine explained insurance and then he explained his bill. During the process its so gross but absolutly every body sued JO because he had the most money or all black people look alike. When the father of the man i punched in his mouth who was injured in the fight found out that its my rookie salary instead of the $20 million dollar man that would be the subject of his lawsuit I bet he saw many zeros fly out of the window. Many short flights to detroit, meetings with lawyers called depositions and dollars were spent on this situation, and the end result was we all payed out of the ass to placate the very people who attacked us.

[Rake2204]

Yikes, David Harrison has been through some things. There seems to be a lot of underlying psychological points of interest in the manner with which he writes - along with a lot of self-glorification. A lot of folks seem to be to blame for his perceived shortcomings.

Hopefully he's doing better these days but it's tough to tell. I'll have to read more.


I was trying to die “Leaving Las Vegas” style, but some force had other plans for me. I blacked out in my room at the Mondrian Hotel in Hollywood and woke up in my apartment in Indianapolis. Apparently I tried to jump off my balcony but one of the people I was with (who shall remain nameless but thanks) saw I was completely out of control and called my agent. They found me the that night and got me home.

Harrison said that he wanted to have a role in the public debate over U.S. sentencing laws and drug use.

"I wanted to try to have the public view me as a patriot for the millions of minor, non-violent, drug offenders who were serving minimum mandatory sentences, a voice for those who were afraid too of the system, but all I did was catch the ire of David J Stern and his lackey Billy Hunter," Harrison writes.http://www.si.com/nba/2014/11/19/indiana-pacers-david-harrison-pistons-brawl
http://www.vigilantsports.com/2014/11/18/former-pacer-david-harrison-recalls-the-brawl-says-it-drastically-shifted-his-life/