Obama will use executive order to shield 5 million illegals tonight .

[longhornfan1234]

How do you feel about this? Is Obama over stepping his boundaries?

[MavsSuperFan]

How do you feel about this? Is Obama over stepping his boundaries?
Feel goods. the bleeding heart liberal in me sympathizes with families that are broken up when the parents get deported.


Is Obama over stepping his boundaries?
Not sure, but havent previous presidents such as Reagan taken similar action. Based on my basic understanding of our political system it seems like executive overreach.

correct me if i am wrong but doesnt the law basically stipulate that people in the country illegally need to be deported?

Seems a stretch to me that the executive can interpret it as loosely as is being done. But its not like Obama is the first president to overreach.

[Akrazotile]

The problem isnt with overlooking the ones already here. The problem is it just further encourages MORE to come.


Mr Obama, put up that wall!

[KyleKong]

Be greatful for the illegals that work the jobs no one else would.

You wanna pick lemons for 14 hours a day for $20?

[longhornfan1234]

Feel goods. the bleeding heart liberal in me sympathizes with families that are broken up when the parents get deported.


Not sure, but havent previous presidents such as Reagan taken similar action. Based on my basic understanding of our political system it seems like executive overreach.

correct me if i am wrong but doesnt the law basically stipulate that people in the country illegally need to be deported?

Seems a stretch to me that the executive can interpret it as loosely as is being done. But its not like Obama is the first president to overreach.




Reagan/Bush issued executive orders to clarify the standing of illegal aliens that were not specifically addressed in the 1986 immigration bill passed by Congress.

Obama is issuing an executive order to defer deportation of illegal aliens that are clearly subject to deportation according to the laws in force that were passed by Congress.

What Reagan/Bush did... and what Obama is going to do....are not the same thing at all.

[oarabbus]

Be greatful for the illegals that work the jobs no one else would.

You wanna pick lemons for 14 hours a day for $20?


This. For better or worse our economy is now reliant upon illegal agricultural workers. If we kicked out all the illegals and replaced them with Americans being paid $7.25/hr the economy would collapse.

[Draz]

Feels good. I don't sympathize with the criminal illegals but some of these people work just as hard if not more than most Americans. Some people didn't choose to come here. They were forced to.

[MavsSuperFan]

This. For better or worse our economy is now reliant upon illegal agricultural workers. If we kicked out all the illegals and replaced them with Americans being paid $7.25/hr the economy would collapse.
I agree it would cause problems. Grocery store prices would skyrocket. though the economy wouldnt collapse lol

On a totally unrelated note I am not sure president has the power to do this without congress. I agree with what is being done, but I am not sure it is within obama's powers.

[theballerFKA Ace]

It's not the agricultural workers that concerns people. It's the factory jobs. I would say here in LA 95% of the workers in factories and food processing plants are latino, and at least(very conservative) 75% can't speak English and are probably illegal. Those jobs used to pay way over minimum wage. And I'm willing to bet it's like that not just in California but lots of places. I hear all the meat packing places that used pay $15/hr when minimum wage was $4.25 and under, now only pay minimum wage because there is no shortage of illegals wanting to apply.

I was in Bakersfield talking to this one Mexican guy in a carrot field, and I noticed he dressed very nice and was well groomed. We got to talking, and I asked him how much the enormous harvester he drove cost. He said almost a million dollars, I was like wow, they must pay you good, how much do you make. He said minimum wage. I told him he had to be joking, driving a million dollar machine that requires lots of experience, only pays minimum wage??? "Why don't you ask for a raise?" He says, "Naw, they'll replace me with another Mexican in 5 minutes if I complain. At least the machine is air conditioned, that's my biggest benefit".

So those of you people without an education or specialized skill set, and support unchecked illegal immigration, don't you dare complain about wages being too low. As long as there is massive illegal immigration, labor will have no bargaining power, the poor will get poorer and the rich will laugh all the way to the bank with their unlimited supply of cheap, willing labor. If you support massive amnesty and no wall, you are a hypocrite and an idiot of the highest order if you also cry about labor wages being too low.

[NumberSix]

I agree it would cause problems. Grocery store prices would skyrocket. though the economy wouldnt collapse lol

On a totally unrelated note I am not sure president has the power to do this without congress. I agree with what is being done, but I am not sure it is within obama's powers.
You know, you could just import lemons from Mexico. Bananas aren't grown in America, but there doesn't seem to be a problem getting cheap bananas.

I agree that serious conversations need to be had, but hyperbole like claiming the lemon picking industry will collapse the economy isn't very helpful.

The BEST argument is the issue of morality. The morality of separating American born children from undocumented parents is a lot more convincing of a argument. There really are no perfect solutions.

[MavsSuperFan]

It's not the agricultural workers that concerns people. It's the factory jobs. I would say here in LA 95% of the workers in factories and food processing plants are latino, and at least(very conservative) 75% can't speak English and are probably illegal. Those jobs used to pay way over minimum wage. And I'm willing to bet it's like that not just in California but lots of places. I hear all the meat packing places that used pay $15/hr when minimum wage was $4.25 and under, now only pay minimum wage because there is no shortage of illegals wanting to apply.

I was in Bakersfield talking to this one Mexican guy in a carrot field, and I noticed he dressed very nice and was well groomed. We got to talking, and I asked him how much the enormous harvester he drove cost. He said almost a million dollars, I was like wow, they must pay you good, how much do you make. He said minimum wage. I told him he had to be joking, driving a million dollar machine that requires lots of experience, only pays minimum wage??? "Why don't you ask for a raise?" He says, "Naw, they'll replace me with another Mexican in 5 minutes if I complain. At least the machine is air conditioned, that's my biggest benefit".

So those of you people without an education or specialized skill set, and support unchecked illegal immigration, don't you dare complain about wages being too low. As long as there is massive illegal immigration, labor will have no bargaining power, the poor will get poorer and the rich will laugh all the way to the bank with their unlimited supply of cheap, willing labor. If you support massive amnesty and no wall, you are a hypocrite and an idiot of the highest order if you also cry about labor wages being too low.
This is why there is no chance that illegal immigration will stop.

Nothing that benefits rich people is stopped in america

[russwest0]

Dumb.

[MavsSuperFan]

You know, you could just import lemons from Mexico. Bananas aren't grown in America, but there doesn't seem to be a problem getting cheap bananas.

I agree that serious conversations need to be had, but hyperbole like claiming the lemon picking industry will collapse the economy isn't very helpful.

The BEST argument is the issue of morality. The morality of separating American born children from undocumented parents is a lot more convincing of a argument. There really are no perfect solutions.
thats the point i was trying to make.

Also its a strawman to say that if obama werent doing this every illegal is going to be deported. its almost impossible to do that

[Patrick Chewing]

Be greatful for the illegals that work the jobs no one else would.

You wanna pick lemons for 14 hours a day for $20?


That's a stupid argument to make. Migrant workers are the only ones to work for that cheap. No American can sustain themselves on that kind of money. So that's not the American citizen's fault, it's the fault of the company for getting away with paying such low wages knowing full well there are plenty of illegals that will snatch it up, and it's also the fault of the government for letting it happen.

[SCdac]

Without typing a paragraph or two I'll just say I have really mixed feelings on the matter. I can completely understand both sides of the argument. Honestly, I think it'd create an incentive for millions more illegal immigrants to come over which is whack.

[Akrazotile]

This is why there is no chance that illegal immigration will stop.

Nothing that benefits rich people is stopped in america

If that were true we would have much lower taxes, lower minimum wage etc.

There are always politicians who will pander to the populace.

[dunksby]

Overstepping his boundaries? If it's within his powers how is he overstepping anything?

[SpecialQue]

Fvcking sweet. My only regret is that I won't be able to vote for him a third time.

[MavsSuperFan]

If that were true we would have much lower taxes, lower minimum wage etc.

There are always politicians who will pander to the populace.
Nothing is an obvious hyperbole

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/charles-wheelan/2014/04/22/study-shows-wealthy-americans-and-businesses-control-politics-and-policy



It's Official: In America, Affluence Equals Influence
A new study shows policy caters to the desires of wealthy American

Sadly, the answer is b. Martin Gilens of Princeton University and Benjamin Page of Northwestern University have done a unique study of which groups get what they want from the American government. Their paper, which can be read in its entirely here, will be published in the fall issue of Perspectives in Politics.

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS15375927140 01595a.pdf&code=a1daa1bd64cc120e3592b187924f0996
link to the research paper.

[QUOTE]Specifically, Gilens and Page compiled a data set on nearly 2,000 proposed policy changes over two decades that fit several important criteria: The issue was binary, meaning that public opinion could be described as either

[Droid101]

Reagan/Bush issued executive orders to clarify the standing of illegal aliens that were not specifically addressed in the 1986 immigration bill passed by Congress.

False.

Here are summaries of the the 18 immigration-related executive orders issued by non-impeached GOP Presidents.

Pres. Dwight Eisenhower:
1956
By executive order, circumvented immigration quotas to allow 900 orphans to join their adoptive families in the U.S.
1956-1958
By executive order, allowed 31,000 Hungarian anti-Soviet insurgents to emigrate.
1959-72
By executive order, allowed 600,000 Cubans fleeing Castro to emigrate. [PDF]

Pres. Gerald Ford:
1975
By executive order, allowed 360,000 refugees, mostly from from Vietnam, to emigrate.
1976
By executive order, allowed 14,000 Lebanese nationals to emigrate.

Pres. Ronald Reagan:
1981
By executive order, allowed 7,000 Polish anti-Communists to emigrate.
1982
Allowed 15,000-plus Ethiopians to emigrate.
1987
By executive order, rescinded deportation of 200,000 Nicaraguans.
1987
By executive order, deferred deportation of undocumented children of 100,000 families. [JSTOR]

George H.W. Bush:
1989
By executive order, deferred deportations of Chinese students.
1989
By executive order, reversed visa denials of 7,000 Soviets, Indochinese.
1990
By executive order, deferred deporations of previously amnestied citizens' 1.5 million spouses and children.
1991
By executive order, deferred deportation of 2,000 Gulf War evacuees.
1992
By executive order, deferred deportations of 190,000 El Salvadorans.

George W. Bush:
2002
By executive order, expedited naturalization for green-card holders who joined military.
2005
By executive order, deferred deportation of students affected by Hurricane Katrina.
2006
By executive order, enabled 1,500 Cuban physicians to seek asylum at US embassies.
2007
By executive order, deferred deportation of 3,600 Liberians.



Please stop lying to try to make the current president look bad.

[nightprowler10]

So that's 5 million more people who will pay taxes?

[KingBeasley08]

Yeah I have mixed feelings. The best way to tackle illegal immigration would be for Mexico to stabilize itself. I can't say I'm not rooting for some of these people to make it and do good for them and their kids in the land of opportunity

[magic chiongson]

Mexicans can stay... them pinoys got to go
how are you going to tell us apart? :D

[masonanddixon]

Be greatful for the illegals that work the jobs no one else would.

You wanna pick lemons for 14 hours a day for $20?

in Australia you make $22-26 an hour picking fruits. If America closed the borders and forced companies to pay fair wages it would solve the problem. Paying migrants $4/hr to do the shit and then letting the receive education and health benefits without paying any taxes is far more damaging.

[kentatm]

It's not the agricultural workers that concerns people. It's the factory jobs. I would say here in LA 95% of the workers in factories and food processing plants are latino, and at least(very conservative) 75% can't speak English and are probably illegal. Those jobs used to pay way over minimum wage. And I'm willing to bet it's like that not just in California but lots of places. I hear all the meat packing places that used pay $15/hr when minimum wage was $4.25 and under, now only pay minimum wage because there is no shortage of illegals wanting to apply.

I was in Bakersfield talking to this one Mexican guy in a carrot field, and I noticed he dressed very nice and was well groomed. We got to talking, and I asked him how much the enormous harvester he drove cost. He said almost a million dollars, I was like wow, they must pay you good, how much do you make. He said minimum wage. I told him he had to be joking, driving a million dollar machine that requires lots of experience, only pays minimum wage??? "Why don't you ask for a raise?" He says, "Naw, they'll replace me with another Mexican in 5 minutes if I complain. At least the machine is air conditioned, that's my biggest benefit".

So those of you people without an education or specialized skill set, and support unchecked illegal immigration, don't you dare complain about wages being too low. As long as there is massive illegal immigration, labor will have no bargaining power, the poor will get poorer and the rich will laugh all the way to the bank with their unlimited supply of cheap, willing labor. If you support massive amnesty and no wall, you are a hypocrite and an idiot of the highest order if you also cry about labor wages being too low.


The illegals who are willing to work for whatever they can get aren't the problem. The real issue are the companies who are never punished for hiring them to such shit wage levels in a greedy attempt to squeeze as much profit for themselves as possible.

They piss and moan that nobody will do the work for the pay but no shit nobody will do back breaking work that doesn't even pay minimum wage. They set it up so only the desperate who won't ask questions take the work and pretend that those are the only people willing to work in the fields.

The fact that they pretend like their industries would collapse if they had to pay a fair wage is laughable.

To me they are no different than the greedy ass biz owners that move manufacturing abroad in order to take advantage of countries with lax labor laws. The US economy would be better off if those jobs stayed here but poor old Boss McBosserson wants that stock to be a quarter of a percent higher b/c he thinks he is entitled to a second summer home.

[Patrick Chewing]

Yeah I have mixed feelings. The best way to tackle illegal immigration would be for Mexico to stabilize itself. I can't say I'm not rooting for some of these people to make it and do good for them and their kids in the land of opportunity


Plenty of Americans are trying to "make it" too and can't. If we keep allowing everyone in, somebody has to pay to feed them and house them while we keep paying to feed and house actual Americans as well.


America shouldn't be the world police, but we don't have to be Mother Theresa either.

[Akrazotile]

The illegals who are willing to work for whatever they can get aren't the problem. The real issue are the companies who are never punished for hiring them to such shit wage levels in a greedy attempt to squeeze as much profit for themselves as possible.




So if businesses did stop hiring illegal immigrants, you would applaud that, yes?

Remember, that would mean higher prices on goods, AND no work in America for the chicanos. And remember, theyre still coming here and TAKING those $4/hr jobs, so it must be an improvement right?


People need to get real and get over their ideology. Yes we can use the cheap labor, yes we need to regulate immigration, and yes those people take the work for a reason. Set the system up so that people have to GO THROUGH THE PROCESS, and agree to work for wages below the American citizen minimum wage as part of the agreement, and give them an eventual path to citizenship. And stringently boot anyone who is then found here without having gone through the process.


The only real solution to this requires the weeny libf@gs to get over their "im gonna cry about fair wages for illegals so that ill look sensitive and progressive and cool, its teh only way i can stand out!" shtick. If we want laborers to come here and work cheap, and if they want to do it, then lets just formalize it. Have to stop beating around the ideologue bush.

[kentatm]

So if businesses did stop hiring illegal immigrants, you would applaud that, yes?

Remember, that would mean higher prices on goods, AND no work in America for the chicanos. And remember, theyre still coming here and TAKING those $4/hr jobs, so it must be an improvement right?


I think that if a business is hiring illegal aliens they should pay a stiff penalty when caught. As it is now they get a light slap on the wrist at best. I have no issue with prices of goods going up if it means people aren't getting paid exploitative bullshit wages like they so often do in agriculture.

Also, if you want to stem the flow of illegal immigration our govt HAS to do something about the countries where they are coming from. We cannot sit back and let a countries like Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc go to shit and then be surprised when people trying to escape extreme gang violence try and cross into the US.

[Trollsmasher]

I thought USA shoots traitors so how is this man still in the office?

[Derka]

There's no perfect solution to this, but I'll agree with one thing he said: if Congress gave a damn about getting immigration reform done, he'd have had a bill on his desk already.

Truth is Congress cares not a single shit about immigration reform because...they're Congress. Republicans will thwart and whine at every possible turn in hopes of putting things off until a Republican has a shot at winning the White House in 2016 while Democrats will point and whine and similarly do nothing.

[Derka]

I think that if a business is hiring illegal aliens they should pay a stiff penalty when caught. As it is now they get a light slap on the wrist at best.

Start with the 537 men and women who constitute your legislative branch of government. You probably wouldn't be to shocked that many of them use illegals for cleaning/nanny work/etc.

[iamgine]

What are the arguments for and against this?

[stalkerforlife]

Everyone should be allowed here.

If they commit crimes, put them in jail. Same with naturalized Americans.

[dkmwise]

There's no perfect solution to this, but I'll agree with one thing he said: if Congress gave a damn about getting immigration reform done, he'd have had a bill on his desk already.

Truth is Congress cares not a single shit about immigration reform because...they're Congress. Republicans will thwart and whine at every possible turn in hopes of putting things off until a Republican has a shot at winning the White House in 2016 while Democrats will point and whine and similarly do nothing.

You could say the same thing that if he really gave a damn that he could have had any bill pass between 2009-11 when the dems has a super majority in the house and senate. Or gave executive order at anypoint over the last 5-6 years. Or for that matter congress should have fixed this for the last 10-20 years. And with the last bill the house said they'd pass it if they took out that people can get full citizenship and instead said they could become legal permanent residents but the dems wouldn't budge on that point.

Both parties are at fault because despite what the news keeps saying this issue has been much longer that the last year.

[Derka]

You could say the same thing that if he really gave a damn that he could have had any bill pass between 2009-11 when the dems has a super majority in the house and senate. Or gave executive order at anypoint over the last 5-6 years. Or for that matter congress should have fixed this for the last 10-20 years. And with the last bill the house said they'd pass it if they took out that people can get full citizenship and instead said they could become legal permanent residents but the dems wouldn't budge on that point.

Both parties are at fault because despite what the news keeps saying this issue has been much longer that the last year.

Absolutely true on all accounts. I didn't say the Mouthpiece in Chief was blameless in all of this by any stretch; he's not. But the hypocrisy of a Congress whining about executive orders when they themselves are petulant and ineffective in their dealings with anybody is pretty stunning...and that's all we're going to be hearing about for the next few months.

[dkmwise]

Absolutely true on all accounts. I didn't say the Mouthpiece in Chief was blameless in all of this by any stretch; he's not. But the hypocrisy of a Congress whining about executive orders when they themselves are petulant and ineffective in their dealings with anybody is pretty stunning...and that's all we're going to be hearing about for the next few months.

True enough.

I always find it fascinating that I can sit down with someone who has the exact opposite political opinions that I do and we can completely agree on just as many important things that we disagree on and I just think, why doesn't congress first try and fix all the things that most people can come to terms on, and save some of the more explosive stuff for later. Makes you think they really don't want to do anything except yell and get reelected.

[Patrick Chewing]

Everyone should be allowed here.



Legally.


These 5 million were here, illegally. Understand?

[kentatm]

You could say the same thing that if he really gave a damn that he could have had any bill pass between 2009-11 when the dems has a super majority in the house and senate.

That really isn't true. It was only during 2009 and 2010 they had it and out of those 2 years they really only had a potential filibuster proof majority for about 5 months due to Ted Kennedy's illness/death and Norm Coleman's demand for a recount vs Al Franken (which was a purposeful and successful attempt to keep Dems from being able to vote on anything w/o risking a filibuster b/c it was pretty clear he wasn't going to win the recount)

[senelcoolidge]

This is going to hurt people that need jobs and people that are poor. This is bad for blacks and other minorities that have high numbers in the lower social economic brackets. I don't think the solution is to bring more poor low skill people into a country. But hey I guess this will keep certain people in power and the rich keep getting richer by doing this too.

[KevinNYC]

How do you feel about this? Is Obama over stepping his boundaries?

The answer to the second question is clearly no and there's a lot of law behind it.

The thing that people don't understand is Congress does not provide enough funds to deport 5 million people in a year. The funding can cover about 400,000 deportations a year. So how to prioritize these cases is what is being talked about. This is not about a path to citizenship (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/us/obamas-immigration-plan-could-grant-papers-to-millions-at-least-for-now.html?_r=0).

So this debate is about "prosectuorial discretion." If we can do 400,000 deportations, which ones should we do? Prosecutorial discretion is fairly well established and immigration law grants wide discretion to the executive and this has been upheld by the Supreme Court. (http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42924.pdf) Deporting criminals might be considered to higher priority than breaking up a family.

My understanding of the plan talked about tonight is to defer action on some people's status. It's not making them citizens.

For this to be illegal, Congress would need to rewrite the immigration laws much more strictly.

[KevinNYC]

You can hear a debate on the issue of prosecutorial discretion and immigration here.

http://www.fed-soc.org/multimedia/detail/the-presidents-duty-to-take-care-that-the-law-be-faithfully-executed-event-video

[dkmwise]

The answer to the second question is clearly no and there's a lot of law behind it.

The thing that people don't understand is Congress does not provide enough funds to deport 5 million people in a year. The funding can cover about 400,000 deportations a year. So how to prioritize these cases is what is being talked about. This is not about a path to citizenship (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/us/obamas-immigration-plan-could-grant-papers-to-millions-at-least-for-now.html?_r=0).

So this debate is about "prosectuorial discretion." If we can do 400,000 deportations, which ones should we do? Prosecutorial discretion is fairly well established and immigration law grants wide discretion to the executive and this has been upheld by the Supreme Court. (http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42924.pdf) Deporting criminals might be considered to higher priority than breaking up a family.

My understanding of the plan talked about tonight is to defer action on some people's status. It's not making them citizens.

For this to be illegal, Congress would need to rewrite the immigration laws much more strictly.

For many years now they have pretty much only deported people who were previously deported or convicted of a FELONY. The people in question here had almost no chance to ever be deported anyway. This new order does not allow them to become citizens, but does allow them to apply for legal permanent residency, which allows them to legally live and work here for life, just not the ability to vote

[dkmwise]

That really isn't true. It was only during 2009 and 2010 they had it and out of those 2 years they really only had a potential filibuster proof majority for about 5 months due to Ted Kennedy's illness/death and Norm Coleman's demand for a recount vs Al Franken (which was a purposeful and successful attempt to keep Dems from being able to vote on anything w/o risking a filibuster b/c it was pretty clear he wasn't going to win the recount)

My bad, off by one year. Regardless the bigger point was that both parties have had many chances to deal with this before now, like the news is making it out. During Bush's term too there were times when each party had control of house and senate and neither party did anything then either

[Ne 1]

Overstepping his boundaries? If it's within his powers how is he overstepping anything?
He said so himself before. "With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that

[Ne 1]

But now what he's saying is what he's going to do is simply sign an executive order telling border patrol and homeland security to not enforce our immigration laws on the books. That's an impeccable offense. I know Republicans wouldn't want to impeach him for political reasons, but that's their only remedy under the constitution if the President breaks the law.

[Akrazotile]

The answer to the second question is clearly no and there's a lot of law behind it.

The thing that people don't understand is Congress does not provide enough funds to deport 5 million people in a year. The funding can cover about 400,000 deportations a year. So how to prioritize these cases is what is being talked about. This is not about a path to citizenship (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/us/obamas-immigration-plan-could-grant-papers-to-millions-at-least-for-now.html?_r=0).

So this debate is about "prosectuorial discretion." If we can do 400,000 deportations, which ones should we do? Prosecutorial discretion is fairly well established and immigration law grants wide discretion to the executive and this has been upheld by the Supreme Court. (http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42924.pdf) Deporting criminals might be considered to higher priority than breaking up a family.

My understanding of the plan talked about tonight is to defer action on some people's status. It's not making them citizens.

For this to be illegal, Congress would need to rewrite the immigration laws much more strictly.


This whole amnesty vs deportation thing is a diversion tactic IMO. Most people do not want the govt to spend the effort and money chasing and deporting millions of people alrewdy living here. They want concrete and stringent efforts to prevent future illegal immigration. Congress doesnt want to do that obviously, so they try to pit the two bases against each other by framing the argument as either amnesty or deportation and let people get riled up defending one or the other.


This is just like with healthcare. The solution all along was to have the states handle it individually, but Congress didnt want that so it was framed as either a federal healthcare system or people dont have healthcare.


The govt wants people arguing, not coming up with useful solutions that take the power out the govts hands. Govt stay using partisan tactics to manipulate sheeple and get what it wants. Thats why the 1% is where they are and the 99% is where it is. Sheep have a very low ceiling. They are limited-upside prospects.

[nathanjizzle]

Dont worry about losing your job to an illigal longhorn, walmart doesnt hire them

[kentatm]

My bad, off by one year. Regardless the bigger point was that both parties have had many chances to deal with this before now, like the news is making it out. During Bush's term too there were times when each party had control of house and senate and neither party did anything then either

Well Obama did use that short 5 month span to push something through called the ACA. You may better know that as Obamacare.

[JtotheIzzo]

Regardless of the midterm results (which aren't an accurate pulse of society as a whole), Obama was elected twice and healthcare and immigration reform were part of his deal.

Not sure why this is big news.

[Ne 1]

"Sometimes when I speak with immigration advocates, they wish I could just bi-pass congress and change the law myself, but that's not how democracy works."- Obama on May 10, 2011

[Boogaloo]

So its better to come to US illegally, rather than spend years and lots of money getting in legally

[Boogaloo]

Everyone should be allowed here.

If they commit crimes, put them in jail. Same with naturalized Americans.

Sure let everybody come. No checks required open it up.
Until its you or somebody that you care about has a crime committed against them .

[riseagainst]

"execute order 66"

[rezznor]

How do you feel about this? Is Obama over stepping his boundaries?
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fnAu0L0R--/bpmzlrkfblncm9p1lbah.gif

[knickballer]

So that's 5 million more people who will pay taxes?

Not really. I would assume alot of these people still won't be on the "books" and therefore not have any reported money. The ones that will be on the "books" will probably get money back from the government as they will probably report such low income on the taxes they will get all the witholding and state taxes back while getting credits like the Earned Income Tax credit and other benefits.

I use to do volunteer tax preparation work for low income families and they would get alot of money back. I'm talking about $10k/family.. Lots of times big families with a few dependent kids, able to claim the EIC(previously mentioned) which can give you a big credit if you have a low income along with multiple dependents, etc.

If anything they will be more of a burden on the tax system.

[chosen_one6]

Not really. I would assume alot of these people still won't be on the "books" and therefore not have any reported money. The ones that will be on the "books" will probably get money back from the government as they will probably report such low income on the taxes they will get all the witholding and state taxes back while getting credits like the Earned Income Tax credit and other benefits.

I use to do volunteer tax preparation work for low income families and they would get alot of money back. I'm talking about $10k/family.. Lots of times big families with a few dependent kids, able to claim the EIC(previously mentioned) which can give you a big credit if you have a low income along with multiple dependents, etc.

If anything they will be more of a burden on the tax system.

As opposed to the top 1% that pay virtually no taxes whatsoever because they know all of the loopholes.

[Akrazotile]

As opposed to the top 1% that pay virtually no taxes whatsoever because they know all of the loopholes.


So if this is true then where are the hundreds of billions in govt revenue coming from?

[Dresta]

Nothing is an obvious hyperbole

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/charles-wheelan/2014/04/22/study-shows-wealthy-americans-and-businesses-control-politics-and-policy



http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS15375927140 01595a.pdf&code=a1daa1bd64cc120e3592b187924f0996
link to the research paper.


American effective rates of taxation are usually lower than other advanced countries in western europe and japan.Rubbish. The power now granted to the plutocratic elite is a direct consequence of the policies pursued by the democratic citizenry. They have got what they asked for and many people predicted this inevitable consequences at the time idealistic morons were plugging the Federal government with more and more power to act arbitrarily.

[Dresta]

This whole amnesty vs deportation thing is a diversion tactic IMO. Most people do not want the govt to spend the effort and money chasing and deporting millions of people alrewdy living here. They want concrete and stringent efforts to prevent future illegal immigration. Congress doesnt want to do that obviously, so they try to pit the two bases against each other by framing the argument as either amnesty or deportation and let people get riled up defending one or the other.


This is just like with healthcare. The solution all along was to have the states handle it individually, but Congress didnt want that so it was framed as either a federal healthcare system or people dont have healthcare.


The govt wants people arguing, not coming up with useful solutions that take the power out the govts hands. Govt stay using partisan tactics to manipulate sheeple and get what it wants. Thats why the 1% is where they are and the 99% is where it is. Sheep have a very low ceiling. They are limited-upside prospects.
Spot on.

[Ne 1]

Everyone should be allowed here.

If they commit crimes, put them in jail. Same with naturalized Americans.
Sorry, but no. The United States, as with any country, has a right and a responsibility to control who enters its territory. While there are certainly many people who wish to enter the US for work, there are also many with more nefarious reasons, such as organized crime, human trafficking, terrorism etc. It is only natural that the US check who enters, to make sure those coming are there for the right reasons, and not to harm its citizens. That's why we have all these amendments and laws. Having an open border policy only jeopardizes this belief. Furthermore, drugs, crimes, and human trafficking will be more prevalent in the U.S. All the U.S has worked for will go to waste because of one action- enacting an open border policy. Try to immigrate to Mexico illegally and see what they will do to you. Mexico has a far stricter immigration policy than the U.S. does and much stricter enforcement of their policy.

[Akrazotile]

So if businesses did stop hiring illegal immigrants, you would applaud that, yes?

Remember, that would mean higher prices on goods, AND no work in America for the chicanos. And remember, theyre still coming here and TAKING those $4/hr jobs, so it must be an improvement right?


People need to get real and get over their ideology. Yes we can use the cheap labor, yes we need to regulate immigration, and yes those people take the work for a reason. Set the system up so that people have to GO THROUGH THE PROCESS, and agree to work for wages below the American citizen minimum wage as part of the agreement, and give them an eventual path to citizenship. And stringently boot anyone who is then found here without having gone through the process.


The only real solution to this requires the weeny libf@gs to get over their "im gonna cry about fair wages for illegals so that ill look sensitive and progressive and cool, its teh only way i can stand out!" shtick. If we want laborers to come here and work cheap, and if they want to do it, then lets just formalize it. Have to stop beating around the ideologue bush.


Bump bc libs duck this sensible idea like an iron dodgeball

[Balla_Status]

As opposed to the top 1% that pay virtually no taxes whatsoever because they know all of the loopholes.

The top 10% pay 70% of all tax revenue. Stop being an idiot please. Thanks.

[russwest0]

The top 10% pay 70% of all tax revenue. Stop being an idiot please. Thanks.

:lol

[KevinNYC]

The top 10% pay 70% of all tax revenue. Stop being an idiot please. Thanks.

Please give a citation for this.

You either misquoting this or citing a number for income tax not all tax revenue.

Because for all tax revenue is more like the top 20% pay 67% of income taxes.

[theballerFKA Ace]

Please give a citation for this.

You either misquoting this or citing a number for income tax not all tax revenue.

Because for all tax revenue is more like the top 20% pay 67% of income taxes.


Yeah it's true. The top 10% paid 68% of the taxes but they also made almost half of the nation's income, 45%. The top 5% paid 56% of the taxes, and the top 1% paid 35% of the taxes. The bottom 50% only made 12% of America's total income but they only pay 3% of the taxes.

http://247wallst.com/economy/2014/04/05/5-big-tax-myths/

[KevinNYC]

Yeah it's true. The top 10% paid 68% of the taxes but they also made almost half of the nation's income, 45%. The top 5% paid 56% of the taxes, and the top 1% paid 35% of the taxes. The bottom 50% only made 12% of America's total income but they only pay 3% of the taxes.

http://247wallst.com/economy/2014/04/05/5-big-tax-myths/

I think you missed my point. Income Taxes are not "all taxes." Income taxes provide less than half of federal tax revenue.

If you are talking "all taxes" than you are talking about the top 20% not the top 10%.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Two Points

1) You should be mad at corporations for not paying taxes, not people. They're responsible for a hilarious amount of money that no one in America sees, but is owed.

2) You can't have a system with non citizens working for less money because then all employers have to do is fire someone around the time they're due for a wage increase and hire someone else for less. That solves 0 problems.

[Akrazotile]

Two Points

1) You should be mad at corporations for not paying taxes, not people. They're responsible for a hilarious amount of money that no one in America sees, but is owed.

Corporations employ people and provide services that citizens need or want. Would rather help them than some bum collecting welfare, selling loose cigs on the corner getting arrested every week and having 7 kids with 5 women. Honestly, I dont think you really understand who the people are that you continuously champion for blindly. Hardworking responsible Americans are not on welfare. Unless they got recently laid off and are using the unemployment safety net briefly while looking for work. Ive lived all over the past few years including in sketchy and ridiculous areas. A lot of people out there are just flat out bums. They sit around and smoke, drink, fight, antagonize, steal, and they get a welfare check for it. These dummies walkin around on tuesday afternoon in a wifebeater and flat brim hat with oversized shorts and neck tats and theyre just constantly up to no good and THEY GET WELFARE. There are way more of these people than you appreciate. Youre trying to position yourself as "hero" by pretending there are all sorts of honest, struggling, innocent Americans out there who need you to rescue them. Nobody needs your help dude. They dont. People decide for thenselves if they wanna make it or not. Stop trying to play hero. Youre only setting up a system that gets abused by people society needs way less of.



2) You can't have a system with non citizens working for less money because then all employers have to do is fire someone around the time they're due for a wage increase and hire someone else for less. That solves 0 problems.

Que?

[Dresta]

What exactly is KevNYC trying to argue here? That the wealthy don't contribute the vast majority of tax revenue? Don't be such a child by focusing on pedantries, when it is an undeniable reality that the United States Federal Government engages in mass wealth re-distribution, and has done for more than half a century. It even spends its time harassing US citizens around the globe who earn more than $60,000, acting in a way that can only be called tyrannical by forcing them to pay taxes in a country they can have not lived in for decades (and they have to act in this disgusting way because of their own gross fiscal irresponsibility).

The welfare state has failed you and here people think the solution is a revamped welfare state, or just to pretend that what we had before wasn't proper welfare - i mean look at Sweden and Norway!!!!!!!!!

Every thread even slightly related to economics in here will have some ignoramus referring to big business and evil corporations who are evil for supplying us with the cheap products we all enjoy. Without big business you would not have any of the luxury goods you enjoy today, unless you are particularly rich. Accept it and move on. Luxury goods provided to the few can be produced by small companies, but luxury goods for the masses can only come from big business.

If you want the things you enjoy you have to put up with these people, you have to accept bigness, and it's as simple as that (remember the biggest monopoly is still the US Federal Government). What a democratic populace should be doing is restricting the power of politicians as much as possible to prevent their granting of political favours to established businesses (generally what Federal power has been used to do ever since farmers started using the USDA to achieve their own ends at the expense of every other American citizen).

[KevinNYC]

Tyranny!

[Dresta]

Jesus, kev, you really are a disgraceful apologist for the incessant expansion of Federal power. As usual you have nothing interesting to say and can only parrot things you've stolen from others. Are you really denying that the IRS is a tool of political power, that it has the power to and does tyrannise over many individuals and groups? In fact, it has a long history of doing so, and there have been a number of books written on this very fact. You are a good example of what happens to someone who is devoid of strong principles and instead only has loyalties to mould himself around.

But of course you will ignore this because you are in favour of leading America into collective suicide, because, you know, at least that'll be some sort of collectivisation! You'll finally be a part of something Kev, finally belong! As long you can continue to associate with those pitiful herd animals you call friends and acquaintances everything will be just fine.

You live in ****ing la-la land dude. A world where money appears out of thin air, a world of honest politicians (only Dems ofc) who work together for the greater good, a world where the government protects the people from big business, instead of simply teaming up to swindle the public and ignorant asses like yourself. Keep believing it's so because Obama and Janet Yellen are telling you so, it's a recipe for success, because no-one's ever been taken for a ride by politicians before :facepalm.

[KevinNYC]

Jesus, kev, you really are a disgraceful apologist for the incessant expansion of Federal power. As usual you have nothing interesting to say and can only parrot things you've stolen from others. Are you really denying that the IRS is a tool of political power, that it has the power to and does tyrannise over many individuals and groups? In fact, it has a long history of doing so, and there have been a number of books written on this very fact. You are a good example of what happens to someone who is devoid of strong principles and instead only has loyalties to mould himself around.

But of course you will ignore this because you are in favour of leading America into collective suicide, because, you know, at least that'll be some sort of collectivisation! You'll finally be a part of something Kev, finally belong! As long you can continue to associate with those pitiful herd animals you call friends and acquaintances everything will be just fine.

You live in ****ing la-la land dude. A world where money appears out of thin air, a world of honest politicians (only Dems ofc) who work together for the greater good, a world where the government protects the people from big business, instead of simply teaming up to swindle the public and ignorant asses like yourself. Keep believing it's so because Obama and Janet Yellen are telling you so, it's a recipe for success, because no-one's ever been taken for a ride by politicians before :facepalm.

OH NO! I've been negged.
11-22-2014 03:17 PM disgraceful apologist - dresta


TYRANNY!

[KyrieTheFuture]

Corporations employ people and provide services that citizens need or want. Would rather help them than some bum collecting welfare, selling loose cigs on the corner getting arrested every week and having 7 kids with 5 women. Honestly, I dont think you really understand who the people are that you continuously champion for blindly. Hardworking responsible Americans are not on welfare. Unless they got recently laid off and are using the unemployment safety net briefly while looking for work. Ive lived all over the past few years including in sketchy and ridiculous areas. A lot of people out there are just flat out bums. They sit around and smoke, drink, fight, antagonize, steal, and they get a welfare check for it. These dummies walkin around on tuesday afternoon in a wifebeater and flat brim hat with oversized shorts and neck tats and theyre just constantly up to no good and THEY GET WELFARE. There are way more of these people than you appreciate. Youre trying to position yourself as "hero" by pretending there are all sorts of honest, struggling, innocent Americans out there who need you to rescue them. Nobody needs your help dude. They dont. People decide for thenselves if they wanna make it or not. Stop trying to play hero. Youre only setting up a system that gets abused by people society needs way less of.




Que?

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-52629-Michael-Jordan-laughing-gif-Im-5pAX.gif

[KyrieTheFuture]

Jesus, kev, you really are a disgraceful apologist for the incessant expansion of Federal power. As usual you have nothing interesting to say and can only parrot things you've stolen from others. Are you really denying that the IRS is a tool of political power, that it has the power to and does tyrannise over many individuals and groups? In fact, it has a long history of doing so, and there have been a number of books written on this very fact. You are a good example of what happens to someone who is devoid of strong principles and instead only has loyalties to mould himself around.

But of course you will ignore this because you are in favour of leading America into collective suicide, because, you know, at least that'll be some sort of collectivisation! You'll finally be a part of something Kev, finally belong! As long you can continue to associate with those pitiful herd animals you call friends and acquaintances everything will be just fine.

You live in ****ing la-la land dude. A world where money appears out of thin air, a world of honest politicians (only Dems ofc) who work together for the greater good, a world where the government protects the people from big business, instead of simply teaming up to swindle the public and ignorant asses like yourself. Keep believing it's so because Obama and Janet Yellen are telling you so, it's a recipe for success, because no-one's ever been taken for a ride by politicians before :facepalm.
Not really responding to this, but I just thought I'd let you know that I appreciate that when you debate you at least make points and know what you're talking about, a characteristic that is sorely lacking for both political ideologies

[kentatm]

2) You can't have a system with non citizens working for less money because then all employers have to do is fire someone around the time they're due for a wage increase and hire someone else for less. That solves 0 problems.

they are already doing that the reg here in Texas

[Relinquish]

This is going to hurt people that need jobs and people that are poor. This is bad for blacks and other minorities that have high numbers in the lower social economic brackets. I don't think the solution is to bring more poor low skill people into a country. But hey I guess this will keep certain people in power and the rich keep getting richer by doing this too.

Yeah, because blacks definitely want to clean sewers and work at slaughterhouses for below minimum wage. :facepalm

[NumberSix]

Yeah, because blacks definitely want to clean sewers and work at slaughterhouses for below minimum wage. :facepalm
:facepalm

[Patrick Chewing]

Yeah, because blacks definitely want to clean sewers and work at slaughterhouses for below minimum wage. :facepalm


Wow, you are so uneducated. Those jobs pay double if not triple the minimum wage.

You need to go back to school, son.