If Dirk wins 2nd title, where do you rank him?

[stalkerforlife]

If he wins the 2nd title without the finals MVP, I have him at top 10-14 all time.

If he wins finals MVP, he is top 8-12.

[DMAVS41]

If he wins the 2nd title without the finals MVP, I have him at top 10-14 all time.

If he wins finals MVP, he is top 8-12.

Fringe top 50.

[stalkerforlife]

Fringe top 50.

:biggums:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

he has to have a better postseason than he did last year
if hes bad in the playoffs and they still win it all he shouldnt get much credit at all

[Akrazotile]

Definitely ahead of Kobe.





Oh wait he's already there.

[stalkerforlife]

he has to have a better postseason than he did last year
if hes bad in the playoffs and they still win it all he shouldnt get much credit at all

Duncan gets all the credit no matter what.

[stalkerforlife]

Definitely ahead of Lebron.





Oh wait he's already there.

Agreed.

[Patrick Chewing]

Definitely ahead of Kobe.





Oh wait he's already there.


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2606600/dirk-dance-o.gif

[T_L_P]

Duncan gets all the credit no matter what.

Maybe because he lead his team in every postseason advanced statistic, and had the best raw numbers? :biggums:

You're the one saying Kobe can do no wrong (goes 0-10, is alpha and has a shitty team -- goes 5-10, GOAT). What a hypocrite.

If Dirk wins another as his team's best player (or close second, depending on how good Ellis plays), he'd have a very real top 15 case. He's a better Playoff performer than Garnett or Malone were.

[masonanddixon]

Top 10-15. I'd kick out Hakeem.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Top 10-15. I'd kick out Hakeem.

:biggums:

[tpols]

Fringe top 50.
What? Lol..

Top 15. Easy.

[Bird]

He's a top 16-20 guy regardless of what happens this year, but winning a 2nd ring as the first or second option would bump him up a few slots.

A few more seasons at the level of last year and how he has begun this year will get him bumped up without winning another title though, so he doesn't necessarily NEED another title to get bumped up in people's all time opinion pieces.

[J Shuttlesworth]

lol DMAVS with the giant :wtf:

[masonanddixon]

:biggums:

It would be his 3rd Finals in the West without another all star.

He'd have same number of rings as Hakeem.

I'd take him over Hakeem.

[lilteapot]

Top 15. I still wouldn't have him in my top 10, just too many great players.

bird
magic
mj
kobe
lebron
shaq
kareem
russell
duncan
wilt

[Bird]

It would be his 3rd Finals in the West without another all star.

He'd have same number of rings as Hakeem.

I'd take him over Hakeem.

I am a HUGE Mavericks and especially Dirk homer, but there is no world where someone should be taking Dirk over one of the 3-4 greatest two players in the HISTORY of the game.

If the greatest player in the history of the league didn't play at the same time as Hakeem, I am willing to bet he would have won more than 2 titles (and he won his back to back).

Very few teams post-Jordan would beat either of Jordan's 3 peat teams (Shaq-Kobe could have probably snagged one or two in the first 3 peat, the Heatles the same, maybe the Spurs during either), so I wouldn't put Hakeem's two ring's on the same level of a hypothetical second ring of Dirk's.

[masonanddixon]

I am a HUGE Mavericks and especially Dirk homer, but there is no world where someone should be taking Dirk over one of the 3-4 greatest two players in the HISTORY of the game.

If the greatest player in the history of the league didn't play at the same time as Hakeem, I am willing to bet he would have won more than 2 titles (and he won his back to back).

Very few teams post-Jordan would beat either of Jordan's 3 peat teams (Shaq-Kobe could have probably snagged one or two in the first 3 peat, the Heatles the same, maybe the Spurs during either), so I wouldn't put Hakeem's two ring's on the same level of a hypothetical second ring of Dirk's.

I think you're overrating Hakeem. Remember his two rings came in a post-MJ weakened transition era. And he had a shitload of 1st round exits.

Sure he's the better defensive player but Dirk was the better offensive player and the better floor spacer. One of the biggest issues with Hakeem was that he spent so much time going to work in the post that it took his teammates out of the offense.

[riseagainst]

probably between 10 and 12. Definitely cemented as the 2nd GOAT pf and no one will come close to him. Right now he's 2nd GOAT pf but Garnett has an argument for that.

[juju151111]

It would be his 3rd Finals in the West without another all star.

He'd have same number of rings as Hakeem.

I'd take him over Hakeem.
Smoking crack.

[masonanddixon]

Smoking crack.

Nah I'm on the slow.

[JohnFreeman]

Top 15

[juju151111]

I think you're overrating Hakeem. Remember his two rings came in a post-MJ weakened transition era. And he had a shitload of 1st round exits.

Sure he's the better defensive player but Dirk was the better offensive player and the better floor spacer. One of the biggest issues with Hakeem was that he spent so much time going to work in the post that it took his teammates out of the offense.
Hmm no Hakeem led his team to the finals in his second year and then most of his teammates turned into crackheads. Dirk might not have Allstar but fringe all stars. He had a great team around him most of his career with Nash,Finley, Josh Howard,Chandler, and 6 man of the year Terry. Mark Cuba n assembled good teams. Hakeem is way superior to Dirk on the defensive end and Dirk isn't superior to him offensively.

[SugarHill]

I think you're overrating Hakeem. Remember his two rings came in a post-MJ weakened transition era. And he had a shitload of 1st round exits.

Sure he's the better defensive player but Dirk was the better offensive player and the better floor spacer. One of the biggest issues with Hakeem was that he spent so much time going to work in the post that it took his teammates out of the offense.

Dirk is nowhere near as good as Hakeem.

[Bird]

I think you're overrating Hakeem. Remember his two rings came in a post-MJ weakened transition era. And he had a shitload of 1st round exits.

Sure he's the better defensive player but Dirk was the better offensive player and the better floor spacer. One of the biggest issues with Hakeem was that he spent so much time going to work in the post that it took his teammates out of the offense.

I don't think I am overrating him at all.

There was no post-MJ weakened transition era until after the SECOND three-peat. The league was just as deep, with just as many stars sans one.

Dirk is a better overall offensive player, but the gap between his offense and Hakeem's offense is equal too or smaller than the gap between Hakeem's defense and Dirk's defense.

And I do know about Hakeem's work in the post, but during Hakeem's career, that's what a front court player did: put in work in the post.

I think Hakeem is one of the 10 or 11 greatest players of all time and Dirk is around 20 or so right now, though he can definitely close the gap with another title and/or a few more seasons of efficient scoring while helping lead his team to 50 or more wins and a spot in the playoffs.

We have differing opinions on Dirk and Hakeem that one title wouldn't change, but it also doesn't mean either one of us is wrong since we are talking about the two greatest foreign-born players in the history of the NBA.

[PsychoBe]

I don't think I am overrating him at all.

There was no post-MJ weakened transition era until after the SECOND three-peat. The league was just as deep, with just as many stars sans one.

Dirk is a better overall offensive player, but the gap between his offense and Hakeem's offense is equal too or smaller than the gap between Hakeem's defense and Dirk's defense.

And I do know about Hakeem's work in the post, but during Hakeem's career, that's what a front court player did: put in work in the post.

I think Hakeem is one of the 10 or 11 greatest players of all time and Dirk is around 20 or so right now, though he can definitely close the gap with another title and/or a few more seasons of efficient scoring while helping lead his team to 50 or more wins and a spot in the playoffs.

We have differing opinions on Dirk and Hakeem that one title wouldn't change, but it also doesn't mean either one of us is wrong since we are talking about the two greatest foreign-born players in the history of the NBA.

how many dpoy does dirk have :roll: :roll: :roll:

dirk can have three titles and i'd still take hakeem over him. he was just a phenomenal, phenomenal player.

[masonanddixon]

I don't think I am overrating him at all.

There was no post-MJ weakened transition era until after the SECOND three-peat. The league was just as deep, with just as many stars sans one.

Dirk is a better overall offensive player, but the gap between his offense and Hakeem's offense is equal too or smaller than the gap between Hakeem's defense and Dirk's defense.

And I do know about Hakeem's work in the post, but during Hakeem's career, that's what a front court player did: put in work in the post.

I think Hakeem is one of the 10 or 11 greatest players of all time and Dirk is around 20 or so right now, though he can definitely close the gap with another title and/or a few more seasons of efficient scoring while helping lead his team to 50 or more wins and a spot in the playoffs.

We have differing opinions on Dirk and Hakeem that one title wouldn't change, but it also doesn't mean either one of us is wrong since we are talking about the two greatest foreign-born players in the history of the NBA.

Yeah I am not saying either of us is wrong, we simply have opinions, which is the whole focus of the board :)

I think a lot of people take Dirk's spacing for granted, in that every time he's on the floor or runs a pick and roll, it's essentially an automatic unofficial assist for his teammate.

I'd personally take Dirk's otherwordly offense and above average defense over great defense and great offense. Simply because it's easier to get a decent defensive bigman that it is to get a once in a lifetime offensive talent.

[PsychoBe]

Yeah I am not saying either of us is wrong, we simply have opinions, which is the whole focus of the board :)

I think a lot of people take Dirk's spacing for granted, in that every time he's on the floor or runs a pick and roll, it's essentially an automatic unofficial assist for his teammate.

I'd personally take Dirk's otherwordly offense and above average defense over great defense and great offense. Simply because it's easier to get a decent defensive bigman that it is to get a once in a lifetime offensive talent.

hakeem's just a "decent" defensive bigman now? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[lilteapot]

Since when does Dirk have above average defense?

[masonanddixon]

hakeem's just a "decent" defensive bigman now? :roll: :roll: :roll:

No, I'm saying getting a decent defensive bigman to complement him is a lot easier than replacing his offense.

[Bird]

Hmm no Hakeem led his team to the finals in his second year and then most of his teammates turned into crackheads. Dirk might not have Allstar but fringe all stars. He had a great team around him most of his career with Nash,Finley, Josh Howard,Chandler, and 6 man of the year Terry. Mark Cuba n assembled good teams. Hakeem is way superior to Dirk on the defensive end and Dirk isn't superior to him offensively.

To be fair, Hakeem had Ralph Sampsonto help him complete dominate opposing front courts. He also had John Lucas for 65 games playing at a top 10 PG level (his 8.8 APG was 8th best in the league) before his release due to drug problems.

Plus, he has some decent overall help in the playoffs from multiple players on the team, so it's not like it was Hakeem and a bunch of scrubs. Sampson was an AS right next to Hakeem that year and was a top 5 rebounder in the league.

[masonanddixon]

Since when does Dirk have above average defense?

For about a decade now, son.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah I am not saying either of us is wrong, we simply have opinions, which is the whole focus of the board :)

I think a lot of people take Dirk's spacing for granted, in that every time he's on the floor or runs a pick and roll, it's essentially an automatic unofficial assist for his teammate.

I'd personally take Dirk's otherwordly offense and above average defense over great defense and great offense. Simply because it's easier to get a decent defensive bigman that it is to get a once in a lifetime offensive talent.

I agree that sometimes Hakeem does get a tad bit over-rated here...he was a better player, flat out, than Dirk.

Lets also just call Dirk's defense what it was/is...average. Not sure it's above average.

You are spot on about Dirk's value overall though. People don't grasp how impactful his mere presence on the court really is.

But it's all a big "meh" from here on in...Dirk's place in history is somewhere around the 15th or so best player ever with a lot of room to debate and move 5 or so places either way in my opinion.

It would take some special shit to put him on a different tier for me. Others that might have him lower...then yea...I could see a 2nd title doing a lot, but not much for me.

[Bird]

Since when does Dirk have above average defense?

Dirk being a poor defensive player was a trope beat into the ground too many years ago to continue bringing up.

He is not a great defender, but he is above league average at the PF position.

Blocks and steals do not a great defender make.

[juju151111]

Yeah I am not saying either of us is wrong, we simply have opinions, which is the whole focus of the board :)

I think a lot of people take Dirk's spacing for granted, in that every time he's on the floor or runs a pick and roll, it's essentially an automatic unofficial assist for his teammate.

I'd personally take Dirk's otherwordly offense and above average defense over great defense and great offense. Simply because it's easier to get a decent defensive bigman that it is to get a once in a lifetime offensive talent.
Once again bro stay off the crack. Hakeem is a top 5 C ever and Dirk isn't much better offensive ly. They are probably equal offensively. Hakeem could space too he just wasn't a 3 PT shooter. He could hit the midrange.

[juju151111]

Dirk being a poor defensive player was a trope beat into the ground too many years ago to continue bringing up.

He is not a great defender, but he is above league average at the PF position.

Blocks and steals do not a great defender make.
He good at being in position at times, but he doesn't really change shots. Hakeem can anchor a defense while playing high level offensively. Don't get me wrong through Dirk is a amazing player himself. I have him top 13.

[stalkerforlife]

If Dirk wins another finals MVP, I am definitely taking him over Hakeem.

Dirk's longevity and ability to take over games offensively gives him the edge.

[Cone]

top 12 at worst

[PsychoBe]

If Dirk wins another finals MVP, I am definitely taking him over Hakeem.

Dirk's longevity and ability to take over games offensively gives him the edge.

no i'd have to disagree.

i wouldn't take dirk over a back-to-back finals mvp/mvp/dpoy player. i just can't.

there's a reason there's a documentary of hakeem titled "it changed everything" because he did.

he changed everything.

[stalkerforlife]

no i'd have to disagree.

i wouldn't take dirk over a back-to-back finals mvp/mvp/dpoy player. i just can't.

there's a reason there's a documentary of hakeem titled "it changed everything" because he did.

he changed everything.

No, I don't take any Dirk over prime Hakeem. However, I would take him overall.

[PsychoBe]

No, I don't take any Dirk over prime Hakeem. However, I would take him overall.

i'm not speaking just prime though. i understand dirk has longevity but that can only mean so much. hakeem was like a modern mix of russel/wilt when it came to impact for his team. he was their best scorer/defender/rebounder and even arguably their most prominent passer by a wide margin since they played through him so often.

[houston]

better than garnett with 2 titles

[ralph_i_el]

GOAT


Just imagine Dirk with horns. Literally a goat

[Bird]

Yeah I am not saying either of us is wrong, we simply have opinions, which is the whole focus of the board :)

I think a lot of people take Dirk's spacing for granted, in that every time he's on the floor or runs a pick and roll, it's essentially an automatic unofficial assist for his teammate.

I'd personally take Dirk's otherwordly offense and above average defense over great defense and great offense. Simply because it's easier to get a decent defensive bigman that it is to get a once in a lifetime offensive talent.

I absolutely love the space created by every Dirk PnR, but I just prefer Hakeem's defense to Dirk's offense.

Don't get me wrong, if I had to pick one to start a team with, I'd find it very difficult to choose either one, but would probably lean Hakeem's way, even through my homer colored glasses.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

i'm not speaking just prime though. i understand dirk has longevity but that can only mean so much. hakeem was like a modern mix of russel/wilt when it came to impact for his team. he was their best scorer/defender/rebounder and even arguably their most prominent passer by a wide margin since they played through him so often.
do u take hakeem over magic, larry and russell then (russell wasnt his teams best scorer)?

[pastis]

Dirk is already top 15. Or top 16. this area.

another title would make him fringe top10 player from an objective point of view. if he has a good playoff series, it will make him top 10.



:bowdown: :bowdown:

[goldcrow]

Right now he's in the Top 15+ range for me. If he can get another ring and mvp, with the top 5/6 in career scoring, his resume would look like this:

MVP, 2-time FMVP, 2-time NBA champion, Top 5 All-Time in Career Scoring, Best European/Foreign Player in Nba History (Let's be honest, Hakeem is an African-American who was a first generation migrant, he attended College in the US) and then add up the All-star appearances he racked up. That's easily a top 10 resume right there.

[ArbitraryWater]

What? Lol..

Top 15. Easy.

He's kidding :wtf:

[StephHamann]

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/dirk-is-actually-riding-marty-mcflys-hoverboard-here.jpg

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/dirk_drunk1-500x4272.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmk3tsVP861qdu1jm.jpg

:applause:

[StephHamann]

His wife is black doe..

http://i.imgur.com/tZpMSmi.jpg

:pimp:

banging all races, pimp :pimp:

[PsychoBe]

do u take hakeem over magic, larry and russell then (russell wasnt his teams best scorer)?

magic and larry are untouchable i think you understand that

russell wasn't the best scorer but he did so many things for that celtics team that it would take an essay to elaborate on it

but in the conversation of hakeem vs dirk, hakeem's number was called on all facets much more often.

remember, he changed everything.

[Magic 32]

Top 12

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10 Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Dirk
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Moses

[RicksPlace]

better than garnett with 2 titles


Indeed. Although someone will still underrrate Dirk and will still brag about Garnett's superior leadership, determination, defense, all around game, bla bla bla.

[rmt]

Dirk over Hakeem? That's crazy. Dirk is just average on defense. Hakeem is an all-time great defensive player.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Dirk over Hakeem? That's crazy. Dirk is just average on defense. Hakeem is an all-time great defensive player.
So hakeem > Magic and larry then:confusedshrug:

why do ppl keep using this double standard...............what makes magic and larry so untouchable...........

[PsychoBe]

So hakeem > Magic and larry then:confusedshrug:

why do ppl keep using this double standard...............what makes magic and larry so untouchable...........

:facepalm

they were phenomenal players that changed the landscape of basketball as we know it.

dont even attempt to bring them up in this argument.

this is between hakeem and dirk and we both know hakeem is far superior.

[iTare]

Top 12

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10 Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Dirk
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Moses
How is Kobe better than Duncan AND Shaq.
:wtf:

[stalkerforlife]

How is Kobe better than Duncan AND Shaq.
:wtf:

Well um, he routinely torched the Spurs. And um, he's done far better without Shaq than Shaq has done without him.

And um, don't act like it's some major deal to feel he's better than both.

[rmt]

Well um, he routinely torched the Spurs. And um, he's done far better without Shaq than Shaq has done without him.

And um, don't act like it's some major deal to feel he's better than both.

Kobe did not have the IMPACT on the court that Duncan and Shaq had. You seem to forget that every team had their hands full with Shaq leaving Kobe open to chuck.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Top 10 for me.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Duncan
4. Magic
5. Kobe
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. LeBron
10. Dirk

[stalkerforlife]

His wife is black doe..

http://i.imgur.com/tZpMSmi.jpg

:pimp:

Dirk got a fine sista.

He must be hung.

[bizil]

I think Dirk would be in the top 15. He would have a great argument. Because a 2nd ring FOR SURE would vault him past Mailman into the 2nd GOAT PF. Mailman is already a top 15 kind of player, so I think Dirk would be a top 15 kind of guy. For now, he's more a top 18-25 GOAT.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:facepalm

they were phenomenal players that changed the landscape of basketball as we know it.

dont even attempt to bring them up in this argument.

this is between hakeem and dirk and we both know hakeem is far superior.
thats just a narrative. I dont know why nikkas is using the changed the landscape sht........just value them as players and if u look at their playoff numbers Dirk has better numbers than Bird. And he was a better defender than Magic.........
im just playin devils advocates and alot of ppl are being hypocrites and not using linear logic here

[Fazotronic]

dirk is top 15-20 all time but winning another title as the man would not get him in the top 10.
dirk is my favorite player of all time and i think he is the most underappreciated player ever. at least one of them but putting him ahead of hakeem?
that seems crazy. i would rather kick someone else out of the top 10 but even that seems abit difficult.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

they were phenomenal players that changed the landscape of basketball as we know it.

dont even attempt to bring them up in this argument.

this is between hakeem and dirk and we both know hakeem is far superior.

I agree that Hakeem was a better player than Dirk (although the gap isn't as big as most are suggesting), but what a player does off the court (unless it impacts what happens on it like...like leadership or being a good teammate...etc....) doesn't matter. We shouldn't rank Bird or Magic higher than a better player just because they "saved" basketball.

I think both Magic and Bird were clearly better players than Hakeem, but if defense is as important as some of you are claiming here...I'm curious to know where you guys have Hakeem ranked as a player.

Forget the career stuff and off court stuff...do you guys rank Hakeem over Magic and Bird?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Honestly the only player i see as clearly better than Hakeem is MJ.
Every other player has something whether its their peak, prime, consistency, longevity, durability, completeness, cross era translation, defense, raise playoff performance etc.. they have something that Hakeem shts on them in
that doesnt mean i rank Hakeem 2nd alltime but hes just an enigma b/c u never know.........if he had the teams MJ had or the right coach to use his correctly who knows how his career wouldve turned out

[PsychoBe]

I agree that Hakeem was a better player than Dirk (although the gap isn't as big as most are suggesting), but what a player does off the court (unless it impacts what happens on it like...like leadership or being a good teammate...etc....) doesn't matter. We shouldn't rank Bird or Magic higher than a better player just because they "saved" basketball.

I think both Magic and Bird were clearly better players than Hakeem, but if defense is as important as some of you are claiming here...I'm curious to know where you guys have Hakeem ranked as a player.

Forget the career stuff and off court stuff...do you guys rank Hakeem over Magic and Bird?

no.

magic as a rookie took over in the finals when kareem was out and played center and put on a legendary performance. he was also just far too good at what he did to be compared to the likes of hakeem. magic could post up, could pass on a legendary level, had a decent jump shot, was the unquestioned leader, etc etc

bird is in that same category. infinite range, great help defender, could post up (not as well obviously), great rebounder relative to his position, legendary passer, etc etc

hakeem was a great, great player but he's not in their echelon because the gap in their offensive capabilities were too wide. even though hakeem was a far superior defender than both, you have to take into account too that he wasn't the one guarding the jordans or millers or barkleys or wilkins. he even used to brag to kenny that he only had to "play" three games a season or so. (shaq, ewing, robinson).

he's just not on magic or bird's level.

[Demitri98]

It depends entirely on how he performs in the playoffs.