View Full Version : Career-high single-season PER (Anthony Davis vs Wilt, LeBron, Jordan, etc)
WillC
11-23-2014, 08:21 AM
Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is one of the best advanced statistics. I know we're only 11 games into the season, so Davis's PER is subject to change, but here are the career-high single-season PERs by players averaging 30+ mpg:
1. Anthony Davis 34.2 (2014-15)
2. Wilt Chamberlain 31.8 (1962-63)
3. LeBron James 31.7 (2008-09)
4. Michael Jordan 31.7 (1987-88)
5. David Robinson 30.7 (1993-94)
6. Shaquille O'Neal 30.6 (1999-00)
7. Dwyane Wade 30.4 (2008-09)
8. Tracy McGrady 30.3 (2002-03)
9. Chris Paul 30.0 (2008-09)
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 29.9 (1971-72)
11. Kevin Durant 29.8 (2013-14)
12. Kevin Garnett 29.4 (2003-04)
13. Charles Barkley 28.9 (1990-91)
14. Karl Malone 28.9 (1996-97)
15. George Mikan 28.7 (1953-54)
16. Elgin Baylor 28.2 (1960-61)
17. Bob Pettit 28.2 (1958-59)
18. Dirk Nowitzki 28.1 (2005-06)
19. Kobe Bryant 28.0 (2005-06)
20. Larry Bird 27.8 (1987-88)
21. Oscar Robertson 27.6 (1963-64)
22. Amare Stoudemire 27.6 (2007-08)
23. Hakeem Olajuwon 27.3 (1992-93)
24. Tim Duncan 27.1 (2003-04)
25. Magic Johnson 27.0 (1986-87)
Nowitness
11-23-2014, 08:51 AM
This goes to prove Davis is already better than Wilt.
Magic 32
11-23-2014, 09:20 AM
Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is one of the best advanced statistics.
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/3204840swsw.gif
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 09:37 AM
This topic was discussed here about a week ago, as well.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359261
BTW, it is likely higher at the moment following last night's 43 point game.
First of all, AD is having a great season. If he can sustain this for an entire season, it would be remarkable.
But as other's have pointed out, PER tends to hurt the players from the 60's because blocks and steals were not officially recorded. Secondly, it tends to reward scoring over all else.
For instance, and IMHO, Chamberlain's three most dominating seasons were '65-66, '66-67, and '67-68. Here were his PER's... 28.3, 26.5, and 24.7. His two highest seasons were his two highest scoring seasons, and they came in at 31.8 and 31.7 (BTW, you missed his 61-62 season above.) Oh, and Wilt also had another 31.6 season, too.
Just look at his '65-66 season for a moment. He LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg. He LED the NBA in rpg, at 24.6 rpg. He LED the NBA in FG% at .540 (in a league that shot an eFG% of .433.) In fact, he LED the NBA in 13 of their 22 major statistical categories, including Win-Shares, and was top five in five more. And, he was top-ten (#7) in apg. Of course, Harvey Pollack would tell you that Chamberlain likely blocked 8+ shots per game, which probably led the NBA. And if other advanced stats, like Offensive rebounds, Defensive rebounds, and TRB% were recorded, he likely would have led in those, as well.
And again, AD's current overall stats, are not much more impressive than what Kevin Garnett's were in '03-04 (a season in which he was at 29.4.)
In any case, I seriously doubt AD's PER will break the record by the time the year is over.
Nor do I believe that Brandon Wright will continue to shoot at a .785 clip from the field, either.
Sarcastic
11-23-2014, 09:53 AM
How many threads on Davis' PER do we need?
This happens in baseball all the time, when a player starts the season on pace for 90 home runs in April. Till this day, no one has kept up with that pace.
Demarco Murray was on pace for like 2,200 yards rushing for the Cowboys this year. Now he is on pace for like 1,900. It's still an amazing season, but comparing to all time records so early in the year is foolish.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 09:54 AM
BTW...let's compare KAJ's 71-72 season, with AD's 14-15 season (this does not include last night's game.)
AD: 34.2
KAJ: 29.4
AD: 24.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.2 spg, 3.7 bpg, .564 FG%, and .779 FT%.
KAJ: 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, .574 FG%, and a .689 FT%.
Obviously, KAJ is missing bpg and spg. And, his rpg is slightly inflated due to pace. But, then again, his FG% of .574 came in a league that shot .455, too, while AD's .564 is in a league that is currently shooting .498.
Davis playing less, at 36.4 mpg, compared to KAJ's 44.2. But then again, in theory, playing more mpg should actually hurt overall efficiencies.
BTW, how about KAJ's 70-71 season?
40.3 mpg, 31.7 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, .577 FG% (league shot .449), and a .690 FT%.
Incidently, the NBA started officially recording bpg and spg, in the 73-74 season. In that year, KAJ averaged 3.5 bpg and 1.4 spg. His career high's were 4.1 bpg, and 1.7 spg. I think it is a safe bet that KAJ would have bn around those numbers in either 71-72 or 70-71, as well.
sbw19
11-23-2014, 09:59 AM
Deflections, shots altered, double-teams drawn, picks set. Talk to me when PER takes into account stuff like that.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:01 AM
Deflections, shots altered, double-teams drawn, picks set. Talk to me when PER takes into account stuff like that.
Excellent points.
BTW, Russell's career high PER season... 22.8.
WillC
11-23-2014, 10:06 AM
Nowhere in my opening post did I say that PER is faultless or that this means Davis is better than every player in history.
It's just an interesting observation, that's all.
If you don't like it, no problem. No need for people to get angry :pimp:
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:06 AM
This goes to prove Davis is already better than Wilt.
And everyone else who has ever played the game, too. So, do you then rank him ahead of MJ, KAJ, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, Lebron, etc...and at their PEAKS?
Im Still Ballin
11-23-2014, 10:08 AM
Wilt's PER should be lowered due to era competition.
His PER would be closer to 28 when adjusted.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:10 AM
Nowhere in my opening post did I say that PER is faultless or that this means Davis is better than every player in history.
It's just an interesting observation, that's all.
If you don't like it, no problem. No need for people to get angry :pimp:
I'm not "angry" at all.
It's just that, even if he would finish the year with the exact same averages, and with the exact same PER (which of course might change based on how other player's performed)...his overall numbers are not really any better than KG's 03-04 season (which was a great season BTW, but just not a monumental one.)
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:12 AM
Wilt's PER should be lowered due to era competition.
His PER would be closer to 28 when adjusted.
Had Chamberlain played in "watered down" 30 team leagues, maybe. But he played in leagues with between nine to 17 teams.
There were teams, like the 66-67 Lakers who were STACKED with GREAT players, and still could only go 36-45, at the time.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:14 AM
Wilt's PER should be lowered due to era competition.
His PER would be closer to 28 when adjusted.
BTW, a prime Chamberlain just CRUSHED players like Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, and yes, even Russell in their H2H's. I could post his numbers, but no need. Most everyone here SHOULD know that by now.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:17 AM
Nowhere in my opening post did I say that PER is faultless or that this means Davis is better than every player in history.
It's just an interesting observation, that's all.
If you don't like it, no problem. No need for people to get angry :pimp:
Incidently, do you rank AD's current season over Oscar's greatest seasons? The Big-O's highest PER season was 27.6 in 63-64, and his "triple-double" season in 61-62 was good for a 26.0 .
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:19 AM
BTW, Brandan Wright's current PER is 31.1 .
Just saying...
T_L_P
11-23-2014, 10:26 AM
AD is having a historic season thus far. If they can make the Playoffs, I'd probably give him the MVP (unless Golden State win 60+ games and Curry remains their absolute best player).
That said, I don't think his game will transition into post-season play as well as other great bigs (same thing happened with Kevin Garnett). He relies on his teammates for baskets a little too much, and when they inevitably play worse Davis will need to rely on his post-game (and I'm not really sure how good it is).
His game last night was sick though. :bowdown:
WillC
11-23-2014, 10:26 AM
BTW, Brandan Wright's current PER is 31.1 .
Just saying...
Which is why I wrote in my opening post that I only ranked players who played 30+ mpg in a given season. It's easy to play flat-out if you're only on the court for 18mpg.
Regarding PER, yes, it is flawed. For example, Bill Russell's contributions are notoriously overlooked by the PER calculations.
Still, if you look down the list of the top 25 that I posted, you can quibble about the order of some players (Bird and Magic too low, Amare too high, Russell not included, etc) but it's generally a good list of the best peaks ever relative to the players' competition/era.
And it goes some way towards highlighting quite how outstanding Davis's start to the season has been.
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:27 AM
Wilt's PER should be lowered due to era competition.
His PER would be closer to 28 when adjusted.
they didn't count blocks 'till '74.... so Chamberlain gets a zero in that category.
That's real accurate.......... lmao
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:29 AM
Which is why I wrote in my opening post that I only ranked players who played 30+ mpg in a given season. It's easy to play flat-out if you're only on the court for 18mpg.
Regarding PER, yes, it is flawed. For example, Bill Russell's contributions are notoriously overlooked by the PER calculations.
Still, if you look down the list of the top 25 that I posted, you can quibble about the order of some players (Bird and Magic too low, Amare too high, Russell not included, etc) but it's generally a good list of the best peaks ever relative to the players' competition/era.
And it goes some way towards highlighting quite how outstanding Davis's start to the season has been.
dude is on fire no doubt. Can he sustain it is the question.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:30 AM
Which is why I wrote in my opening post that I only ranked players who played 30+ mpg in a given season. It's easy to play flat-out if you're only on the court for 18mpg.
Regarding PER, yes, it is flawed. For example, Bill Russell's contributions are notoriously overlooked by the PER calculations.
Still, if you look down the list of the top 25 that I posted, you can quibble about the order of some players (Bird and Magic too low, Amare too high, Russell not included, etc) but it's generally a good list of the best peaks ever relative to the players' competition/era.
And it goes some way towards highlighting quite how outstanding Davis's start to the season has been.
No question that AD is having an outstanding season. But my point is, even if he could somehow sustain that PER with the exact same numbers he has now, for the entire season, it would still be well down the list of truly dominant seasons.
To blow-away the PER record, and with basically the equivalent of KG's 03-04 season just doesn't seem "historic" to me.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:43 AM
they didn't count blocks 'till '74.... so Chamberlain gets a zero in that category.
That's real accurate.......... lmao
And, can you explain WHY they didn't "officially" record blocks until that season...just for the enlightenment of ISH?
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:44 AM
AD is having a historic season thus far. If they can make the Playoffs, I'd probably give him the MVP (unless Golden State win 60+ games and Curry remains their absolute best player).
That said, I don't think his game will transition into post-season play as well as other great bigs (same thing happened with Kevin Garnett). He relies on his teammates for baskets a little too much, and when they inevitably play worse Davis will need to rely on his post-game (and I'm not really sure how good it is).
His game last night was sick though. :bowdown:
You're kidding, right?
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:45 AM
No question that AD is having an outstanding season. But my point is, even if he could somehow sustain that PER with the exact same numbers he has now, for the entire season, it would still be well down the list of truly dominant seasons.
To blow-away the PER record, and with basically the equivalent of KG's 03-04 season just doesn't seem "historic" to me.
Kevin Garnett's 03-04 season was imminently historic. One for the ages
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:47 AM
AD is having a historic season thus far. If they can make the Playoffs, I'd probably give him the MVP (unless Golden State win 60+ games and Curry remains their absolute best player).
That said, I don't think his game will transition into post-season play as well as other great bigs (same thing happened with Kevin Garnett). He relies on his teammates for baskets a little too much, and when they inevitably play worse Davis will need to rely on his post-game (and I'm not really sure how good it is).
His game last night was sick though. :bowdown:
Don't ask me to explain why other than just.... completeness..... but that dude in your avi needs to go in the Hall.
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:49 AM
Don't ask me to explain why other than just.... completeness..... but that dude in your avi needs to go in the Hall.
Ivan Drago?
T_L_P
11-23-2014, 10:50 AM
Don't ask me to explain why other than just.... completeness..... but that dude in your avi needs to go in the Hall.
Best non big defender ever in my opinion (speaking primes).
:bowdown:
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:51 AM
Ivan Drago?
LOL is it? I thought it was Kirelenko
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:53 AM
LOL is it? I thought it was Kirelenko
Just kidding, of course...
but...
http://hairstylesarea.com/hair-pic/HLIC/48042c80115e8837f1e83e324d087f2e.jpg
http://cdn.hark.com/images/000/002/081/2081/original.jpg
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:54 AM
Best non big defender ever in my opinion (speaking primes).
:bowdown:
He was still amazing at times on the Wolves too
La Frescobaldi
11-23-2014, 10:55 AM
Just kidding, of course...
but...
http://hairstylesarea.com/hair-pic/HLIC/48042c80115e8837f1e83e324d087f2e.jpg
http://cdn.hark.com/images/000/002/081/2081/original.jpg
twin brothers of different mothers
LAZERUSS
11-23-2014, 10:59 AM
twin brothers of different mothers
BTW, and before someone blindly jumps in...
BOTH those pics were of Dolph Lundgren.
But the similarities to Kirilenko are pretty suspicious...
WillC
11-23-2014, 01:31 PM
T-Mac :dancin
One of the most underrated players in NBA history. A victim of circumstances and bad fortune.
Cladyclad
11-23-2014, 01:39 PM
so a man who avg 50 & 20 is not the all time leader in per?
so a man who avg 50 & 20 is not the all time leader in per?
No, its pace adjusted. Playing 48.2mpg does that.
KD35Brah
11-23-2014, 02:03 PM
Durant had a 28.3 PER in 2013, so he is 16th on the list in the OP.
WillC
11-23-2014, 02:57 PM
Durant had a 28.3 PER in 2013, so he is 16th on the list in the OP.
Erm, no.
Durant's highest PER was 29.8 in 2013-14, which ranks him 11th all-time.
....Which is why I ranked him 11th.
KD35Brah
11-23-2014, 03:29 PM
Erm, no.
Durant's highest PER was 29.8 in 2013-14, which ranks him 11th all-time.
....Which is why I ranked him 11th.
I didn't know you were only doing career highs, my bad.
Carry on.
Poetry
11-23-2014, 03:38 PM
3. LeBron James 31.7 (2008-09)
4. Michael Jordan 31.7 (1987-88)
MJ should be number 3 with 31.71, then it's LeBron at 4 with 31.67.
BigBoss
11-23-2014, 03:39 PM
SO Anthony Davis is the GOAT?
One of the most underrated players in NBA history. A victim of circumstances and bad fortune.
http://img.pandawhale.com/39876-The-Rock-applauds-applause-cla-OmWp.gif
SpanishACB
11-23-2014, 04:00 PM
he knows he's gonna be the goat
why else would you choose not to shave that unibrow if you weren't aware oft he market value and inmediate recognition power it has over people and that will ultimatel yield you a fortune in the form of the unibrow brand
i can already see the synergies with the mcdonalds logo
Sarcastic
11-23-2014, 04:12 PM
SO Anthony Davis is the GOAT?
No. It's a flawed stat to begin with, and even more flawed with small sample sizes.
Akhenaten
11-23-2014, 04:32 PM
goofy azz "advanced" stats, i hate all that crap: win shares (TF is a win share:rolleyes: ), "true" shooting (cause missing 6 out of ten 3pA doesn't actually mean that you made 40% of your attempted shots and MISSED 60%, NO! what it REALLY means is that you shot 50% because 4X3= 12), individual Ortg/Drtg.
All smart dumb nikka garbage.
How is it BTW that Lebron has a higher PER than Wade in 09, when Wade avg more points, more assists, more steals, more blocks and shot a better percentage from the field.
I dont need some goofy's algorithmic interpretation or representation of raw stats, I can read, add, subtract, divide and multiply GTFO.
magnax1
11-23-2014, 04:44 PM
His PER is just high because he never turns the ball over-further showcasing that PER is just built in a stupid way.
kennethgriffin
11-23-2014, 04:47 PM
per is so stupid
give me wilts 50ppg season any day of the week.
obviously way too much credit is given to blocks.
considering wilts blocks werent record. so davis's 4 blocks to wilts 0 puts his PER higher?
give me a break. even without the blocks anyone with 50+ppg and 20+rpg should have a value twice that of an anthony davis
PER Is ****ing retarded
Anaximandro1
11-23-2014, 06:38 PM
Problems with PER
-depends on the team structure and varies across eras (was Karl Malone better than Magic/Bird ?)
-declines in the late stages of the NBA playoffs (there was, however, one notable exception)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iq7bZ5sYKwQ/VHJZwVE_WeI/AAAAAAAADeE/Snt19MWSB34/s1600/4.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PH7xAXIhmS0/VHJZwPFVJwI/AAAAAAAADeI/YGvAZlu51V8/s1600/5.jpg
-Moreover, PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive impact.
-That said, the combination of H2H, PER, WS/48, USG% and ORtg - DRtg works reasonably well.
Anthony Davis is a beast, but 1) he needs to show that he can do it in the playoffs ; 2) he needs a real rival
Wilt/Russell, Wilt/Kareem, Kareem/Moses, Hakeem/Ewing, Robinson/Hakeem, Barkley/Malone, Duncan/Shaq, Duncan/Dirk, etc
3ball
11-23-2014, 07:52 PM
.
MJ Posterizes Duncan
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Dunks_On_Tim_Du_c637e9b63274127bb96 6a04f34e07da9.gif
CavaliersFTW
11-23-2014, 08:00 PM
Let's be real Wilts PER with his advanced stats like blocks and steals would probably be over 40 for multiple seasons
RoseCity07
11-23-2014, 08:09 PM
There is a long way to go in the year. Davis doesn't belong on that list because they season isn't complete.
And just lol at people that bash PER. It's a mathematical formula you retards. It applies equally to all players.
3ball
11-23-2014, 08:09 PM
Let's be real Wilts PER with his advanced stats like blocks and steals would probably be over 40 for multiple seasons
take all those open shots or play-finishes that davis got last night (12 of his 16 makes) - wilt would get all those, plus wilt would overpower defenders in numerous other spots that davis wouldn't be able to.
back the day, it was impossible to score 43 by getting such a high proportion of open shots and play-finishes - you had to create your own shot and score ON defenders much more to get 43.
Deuce Bigalow
11-23-2014, 08:24 PM
Let's be real Wilts PER with his advanced stats like blocks and steals would probably be over 40 for multiple seasons
You think Wilt could get a PER of 20 at his peak in the modern era?
La Frescobaldi
11-24-2014, 02:57 AM
There is a long way to go in the year. Davis doesn't belong on that list because they season isn't complete.
And just lol at people that bash PER. It's a mathematical formula you retards. It applies equally to all players.
No, not equally to all players, at all. If you knew more about PER you would bash it too.
It changes meaning when some rules change; and it adds points for blocks and steals which were not stats at all prior to 1974.
A guy like Jerry West gets zero credit for steals.... the same zero as Don Ohl or some bench guy. But the Logo had torrid numbers of steals and gets no credit at all. Russell is world famous for blocked shots.... he gets a zero.
Using it to measure across eras... or anyone before 1974.... is positively a mathematical fallacy.
See? Bash away! Bashing is accurate and fun!!
Psileas
11-24-2014, 08:44 AM
No, not equally to all players, at all. If you knew more about PER you would bash it too.
It changes meaning when some rules change; and it adds points for blocks and steals which were not stats at all prior to 1974.
A guy like Jerry West gets zero credit for steals.... the same zero as Don Ohl or some bench guy. But the Logo had torrid numbers of steals and gets no credit at all. Russell is world famous for blocked shots.... he gets a zero.
Using it to measure across eras... or anyone before 1974.... is positively a mathematical fallacy.
See? Bash away! Bashing is accurate and fun!!
Also: The way it accounts for pace is unrealistic, not only implying that stats improve or worsen in a linear way (20 ppg for a player per 80 possessions = 30 ppg per 120 possessions), thus, ignoring factors like fatigue or fouling trouble, it also implies that pace affects all players the same, regardless of position, speed/quickness, ability to create personal/team plays, etc.
Nice but Anthony Davis would probably not even be in the top 25 there if we went by all-time best 11 game stretches.
Let's be real Wilts PER with his advanced stats like blocks and steals would probably be over 40 for multiple seasons
It would go up indeed but not likely that much, unless he averaged like 10 spg & 10 bpg, but then there is turnovers aswell which depending on how much he had could bottleneck that advantage somewhat. PER unfortunately factors in productions per minute & possession, that is what is really keeping his PER down (and all those 60s / sub 60s players). He played like literally entire games & was in a era where they averaged more poss. per game than in any era/decade ever, especially those Russell & Wilt teams.
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