Regarding today's rules allowing weak side defenders to help on the strong side

[3ball]

.
Today's zones allow defenders on the weak side to come over to the strong side and cut off driving lanes before the driver reaches the paint.

However, this is not spectacular, because the approach is easily countered by various screen roll actions and floor-positioning that allows the type of consistent lane penetration we see in today's games... Not only do strong-side floods still allow consistent lane penetration, but they create holes elsewhere in the defense, like a leaky boat.

First of all, the strong side flood is routinely countered with passes to a weak side that is now short a defender.. Off-ball players on the weak side are the beneficiary.

Secondly, all defenders in today's game must abide by defensive 3 seconds, so they can only help from outside of the paint, which opens up the possibility of being "late"... Being "late" is a big issue in today's game - it is one of the biggest differences between this era and previous eras, when defenders were allowed to wait under the rim and therefore couldn't be late... today's tardy defenders are the reason for higher at-rim percentages.

With defenders having to help from outside the paint and no one waiting at the rim, it gives a free pass for alley-oops to be completed... It also enhances the effectiveness of off-ball players, whose entire objective is to beat defenders to the spot, which is a lot easier with no one waiting at the destination... The NBA has prominently stated that the objective of the new rules was to make passing and cutting easier, and they did this by implementing a 3 seconds rule that forced defenders to help from outside the paint.

In the end, today's game is easier for off-ball players and wings that can beat defenders to the open paint.

[3ball]

my mouse keeps double clicking and submitting a second thread.. :hammerhead:

[IGOTGAME]

I think you need to realize the illegal defense rules. The new rules give you three see onder of illegal defense that you weren't allowed before. Back then you should have been calld d for illegal defense on the first second u der the rim.

[3ball]

The new rules give you three seconds



you are right - the defensive 3 seconds rule governs how players are guarded in the paint, and today's 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html)


1981-82
"Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)".

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif


in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.


in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1).

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.

[KingPush]

nah

[Prometheus]

sweet

[navy]

Did 3ball post anything new or did he simply reword everything and post it again?

[Prometheus]

Did 3ball post anything new or did he simply reword everything and post it again?

usually its not even reworded

[andgar923]

Rules and implementation of rules aren't always followed to a tee by refs, and obviously players and coaches scheme to find a way around them.

Gifs aren't the end all of an argument, since one can find dozens of clips and gifs showing the opposite.

BUT

Any objective ball observer will agree that having said all that, today's game is more open to allow perimeter players driving opportunities. Not only that, it's also clearly less physical which hinders an offensive player's 'consistency'. Sure they may not always be stopped, but it does affect their overall consistency, combine that with more clogged lanes it makes it harder for perimeter players (or players in general).

Today's game is simply formatted to allow perimeter players to blossom, it's as simple as that.

[Nash]

my mouse keeps double clicking and submitting a second thread.. :hammerhead:
what your mouse is trying to tell you:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/491/stop-posting.jpg

[3ball]

what your mouse is trying to tell you:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/491/stop-posting.jpg
post more?

[3ball]

Did 3ball post anything new or did he simply reword everything and post it again?
OP is 100% new material regarding the ability of today's defenses to bring weakside defenders over to the strong side to stop a would-be penetrator, and how this benefited off-ball players and still allowed the consistent penetration we see in today's game, while also opening up other areas of weakness in the defense, like a leaky boat.

the subsequent post that included the GIF of klay thompson's dad was just to explain the current defensive 3 seconds rule to a poster, and explain the difference between the new rule and the old rule.

[Kvnzhangyay]

cool

[3ball]

Gifs aren't the end all of an argument, since one can find dozens of clips and gifs showing the opposite.


actually, you can't.

you can't find plays in today's game with defenders waiting under the rim with their man outside of the paint - the rules disallow this - you have to be within "armslength" to stay in the lane, and the open paint on every possession in today's game reflects the words in the rule.

so it's not about the GIF's - the GIF's just support the actual rules - the rules DO exist.

different words mean different things - "adjacent" is not the same as "armslength", so to assume it is in the analysis is wrong... the GIF's only support the actual rules.

[KobesFinger]

If a Jordan era team played a post Jordan era team with the JE players playing by JE rules and PJE by PJE rules, who would win and why? You can pick the teams

[3ball]

If a Jordan era team played a post Jordan era team with the JE players playing by JE rules and PJE by PJE rules, who would win and why? You can pick the teams



the jordan team would win in both scenarios... he had goat-level ability in every aspect of the game, so his game naturally adjusts to any scenario or era - he's better than today's players at everything.

but this thread isn't about Jordan - it's about weak side defenders being allowed to help on the strong side in today's game, as explained in the OP, reposted below:





Today's zones allow defenders on the weak side to come over to the strong side and cut off driving lanes before the driver reaches the paint.

However, this is not spectacular, because the approach is easily countered by various screen roll actions and floor-positioning that allows the type of consistent lane penetration we see in today's games... Not only do strong-side floods still allow consistent lane penetration, but they create holes elsewhere in the defense, like a leaky boat.

First of all, the strong side flood is routinely countered with passes to a weak side that is now short a defender.. Off-ball players on the weak side are the beneficiary.

Secondly, all defenders in today's game must abide by defensive 3 seconds, so they can only help from outside of the paint, which opens up the possibility of being "late"... Being "late" is a big issue in today's game - it is one of the biggest differences between this era and previous eras, when defenders were allowed to wait under the rim and therefore couldn't be late... today's tardy defenders are the reason for higher at-rim percentages.

With defenders having to help from outside the paint and no one waiting at the rim, it gives a free pass for alley-oops to be completed... It also enhances the effectiveness of off-ball players, whose entire objective is to beat defenders to the spot, which is a lot easier with no one waiting at the destination... The NBA has prominently stated that the objective of the new rules was to make passing and cutting easier, and they did this by implementing a 3 seconds rule that forced defenders to help from outside the paint.

In the end, today's game is easier for off-ball players and wings that can beat defenders to the open paint.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You're turning into one of those crazy Wilt stans, dude. If not already there.

[jstern]

If a Jordan era team played a post Jordan era team with the JE players playing by JE rules and PJE by PJE rules, who would win and why? You can pick the teams

The team playing under their own rules will have a significant advantage. They were built for those rules, and trained with those rules.

You could make the argument that a Jordan led team playing under today's rules will give Jordan a big advantage, thus giving his teams the upper hand.