From Nov 2014: People still think LeBron > Bird/Pippen?

[unbreakable]

No way, jose.

Bird and Pippen would dismantle the current East 1v5.. nobody could phase them, mentally or physically.

Why did some of yall fall for Lebron's hype? 2 rings and yall had him over Pip and Bird?

Thats basketball blasphemy :no:

[IllegalD]

No way, jose.

Bird and Pippen would dismantle the current East 1v5.. nobody could phase them, mentally or physically.

Why did some of yall fall for Lebron's hype? 2 rings and yall had him over Pip and Bird?

Thats basketball blasphemy :no:

Prisoners of the moment.

[nba_55]

I dont waste time thinking of old players who are done and who s time has passed. Pippen and bird s time has passed. Move on.

[Taller than CP3]

I dont waste time thinking of old players who are done and who s time has passed. Pippen and bird s time has passed. Move on.

Good, don't waste time because Lebron has no chance of ever becoming as good as them. One day Lebron will be done and no one will be talking about him, whereas Bird and Pippen are highly regarded as the top SF's in the history of the game.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron > Pippen

[riseagainst]

I dont waste time thinking of old players who are done and who s time has passed. Pippen and bird s time has passed. Move on.

Agreed. Bird/MJ/Pippen > Lebron. let's all move on then and stop bringing this up again.

[K Xerxes]

Pippen is not in the same class as LeBron and Bird. It's debatable between Bird and LeBron.

[HOoopCityJones]

I'd take Bird over Lebron.

[T_L_P]

Pippen is not in the same class as LeBron and Bird. It's debatable between Bird and LeBron.

This.

Pippen?

[iamgine]

blatant trolling from OP. Mods?

[Myth]

LeBron better than Bird? No
LeBron better than Pippen? A little

[Optimus Prime]

Only LeBron stans and trolls ever thought that LeBron was greater than Bird, Pippen or a handful of other greats. He is a media manufactured and protected "legend".

:kobe:

[oarabbus]

If you think Pippen >LeBron you are retarded

But Bird >>> LEbron

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pippen? Yea, not much doubt about it.

Bird? Never did, not really far at all but also... no way.

[kunk75]

If you think Pippen >LeBron you are retarded

But Bird >>> LEbron

this

[ImKobe]

29 yr old Pippen put up 21/8/5 a game on 48% shooting and led the league in steals, at his peak defensively...and he played on a shit team that year.

29 yr old Bird averaged 26/10/7/2 on 50/42/90 shooting, leading his team to a 3rd ring while his production skyrocketed in the POs....

Bran's decline is going to hit him hard. Dude might not be top 20 when it's all said & done.

[Prometheus]

LeBron/Bird is a debate that will never die.

Pippen isn't close :facepalm

[ImKobe]

LeBron/Bird is a debate that will never die.

Pippen isn't close :facepalm

Bird so far is better no question. At least accolades wise.

[Prometheus]

Bird so far is better no question. At least accolades wise.

How do you figure? Have you actually compared their resumes side-by-side? it's dead even.

[oarabbus]

29 yr old Pippen put up 21/8/5 a game on 48% shooting and led the league in steals, at his peak defensively...and he played on a shit team that year.

29 yr old Bird averaged 26/10/7/2 on 50/42/90 shooting, leading his team to a 3rd ring while his production skyrocketed in the POs....

Bran's decline is going to hit him hard. Dude might not be top 20 when it's all said & done.


29 year old pippen wasn't 2/5ths the player LeBron was at 29.

That's not me making fun of LeBron, Pippen isn't shit compared to LeBron

[pastis]

29 yr old Pippen put up 21/8/5 a game on 48% shooting and led the league in steals, at his peak defensively...and he played on a shit team that year.

29 yr old Bird averaged 26/10/7/2 on 50/42/90 shooting, leading his team to a 3rd ring while his production skyrocketed in the POs....

Bran's decline is going to hit him hard. Dude might not be top 20 when it's all said & done.

you all really believing he is declining so hard because he and his m8s are strugeling at the beginning of the 82 games season after maybe 15 games? What was at the beginning of the big 3 era in Miami? the same!

Betting that lebron will reach with his cavs in a 7 games series FINALS AGAIN?

Im not saying he isnt declining....thats normal with getting older (exception in Dirk 2011 playoffs run with alien, not-human being 4th quarter stats in whole playoffs at age 33), but you all are dramatizing all now. not even top 20 at the end of his career?

[unbreakable]

Pippen won 6 rings as a co-alpha, defensive anchor, and primary offensive playmaker...

Pippen also led his team to 55 wins and a rigjob away from the Finals without MJ (and not even a decent substitute in his place)

[ImKobe]

How do you figure? Have you actually compared their resumes side-by-side? it's dead even.

So you think Lebron having an extra MVP makes up for him having one less ring than Bird, who's 4-year stretch from 83-87 is better than Bran's entire Playoff resume?

Dude's career was basically cut short after his 9th season, and Bran's still trying to catch up to him in rings.

Plus, he has the edge in career averages, and his '86 Finals is better than anything Bran has done on that stage. Dude averaged 24/10/10/3 and shot lights out. Dude's beat the showtime Lakers twice, washed Hakeem & the Rockets in 86, had to get past the Pistons to even make the Finals, so you know he didn't have no cakewalks to the Finals like Bran's had. And even in the Finals losses to the Lakers, dude was putting up big all-around numbers.

I just don't see it right now. You add on the cultural impact and he's by far the greater player. All those things will be considered when people compare careers and all. If Lebron fails to deliver a ring in Cleveland, it will hold his legacy back. Good thing he's a very durable player, he will have a lot of seasons to prove his greatness, but Bird's first 9 seasons (before back injury) are better than Lebron's entire career up to this point, or at worst, like you said, dead even, and that's if you think Lebron's extra MVP is worth more than Bird's 1st ring in his 2nd NBA season, putting up 22/14/6 for the Playoffs that year.

Dude has beaten Dr.J's Sixers, Moses Malone's Rockets, Bernard King's Knicks, Hakeem's Rockets, Bad Boy Pistons and other great teams in his career to earn those rings, who was Lebron's toughest opponent that he beat? The 2013 Spurs, who were up 3 - 2 on them and had one of the greatest choke jobs in NBA history...2nd being the OKC Thunder, that were a mis-match and had none of their players in their primes yet..

It's just not comparable to me right now. Lebron needs to do more.

[Prometheus]

Pippen won 6 rings as a co-alpha, defensive anchor, and primary offensive playmaker...

Pippen also led his team to 55 wins and a rigjob away from the Finals without MJ (and not even a decent substitute in his place)

:wtf:

"co-alpha"


:facepalm



http://memeshappen.com/media/created/lmpiiw.jpg


...


"co-alpha" ... nah.

And yeah, Pippen is better because he won 55 games and made it to the second round without Jordan... Meanwhile LeBron had multiple 60+ win seasons with Mike Brown and the f*cking Cleveland Cavaliers, dragging those pathetic rosters to the finals at age 22 and then taking the eventual-champion STACKED Boston Celtics to seven games in '08.

I get it, LeBron is a clown and it's easy to laugh at him, but damn... you can't just pretend his career didn't happen.

[ImKobe]

29 year old pippen wasn't 2/5ths the player LeBron was at 29.

That's not me making fun of LeBron, Pippen isn't shit compared to LeBron

Lebron is currently 29. He's playing like dogshit. Pippen at the same age was playing DPOY-level defense while also having a great all-around game on offense and led a team without Michael Jordan to 55 wins...please. Stats right now show that Pippen at the same age was better.

[Mr.Kite]

I rather have Pippen than Bran.

Pippen may sit out for a game winning shot because it wasn't designed to him, but at least he won't pass it.

[ImKobe]

:wtf:

"co-alpha"


:facepalm



http://memeshappen.com/media/created/lmpiiw.jpg


...


"co-alpha" ... nah.

And yeah, Pippen is better because he won 55 games and made it to the second round without Jordan... Meanwhile LeBron had multiple 60+ win seasons with Mike Brown and the f*cking Cleveland Cavaliers, dragging those pathetic rosters to the finals at age 22 and then taking the eventual-champion STACKED Boston Celtics to seven games in '08.

I get it, LeBron is a clown and it's easy to laugh at him, but damn... you can't just pretend his career didn't happen.

Pippen ran the offense and was the Bulls' best defender for their 2nd 3-peat.

Plus, Scottie in his first 2 NBA Finals was by far better than Lebron in his first two.

[SHAQisGOAT]

So you think Lebron having an extra MVP makes up for him having one less ring than Bird, who's 4-year stretch from 83-87 is better than Bran's entire Playoff resume?

Dude's career was basically cut short after his 9th season, and Bran's still trying to catch up to him in rings.

Plus, he has the edge in career averages, and his '86 Finals is better than anything Bran has done on that stage. Dude averaged 24/10/10/3 and shot lights out. Dude's beat the showtime Lakers twice, washed Hakeem & the Rockets in 86, had to get past the Pistons to even make the Finals, so you know he didn't have no cakewalks to the Finals like Bran's had. And even in the Finals losses to the Lakers, dude was putting up big all-around numbers.

I just don't see it right now. You add on the cultural impact and he's by far the greater player. All those things will be considered when people compare careers and all. If Lebron fails to deliver a ring in Cleveland, it will hold his legacy back. Good thing he's a very durable player, he will have a lot of seasons to prove his greatness, but Bird's first 9 seasons (before back injury) are better than Lebron's entire career up to this point, or at worst, like you said, dead even, and that's if you think Lebron's extra MVP is worth more than Bird's 1st ring in his 2nd NBA season, putting up 22/14/6 for the Playoffs that year.

Dude has beaten Dr.J's Sixers, Moses Malone's Rockets, Bernard King's Knicks, Hakeem's Rockets, Bad Boy Pistons and other great teams in his career to earn those rings, who was Lebron's toughest opponent that he beat? The 2013 Spurs, who were up 3 - 2 on them and had one of the greatest choke jobs in NBA history...2nd being the OKC Thunder, that were a mis-match and had none of their players in their primes yet..

It's just not comparable to me right now. Lebron needs to do more.

:applause:

[Indian guy]

LeBron's resume is flat out superior to Bird's. More MVPs, better statistically in both forms of the game and better longevity. He especially blows him away in advanced stats. LeBron's career playoff PER is better than Bird's best playoff run.

Don't think Bird's extra ring makes up for that. And those bringing up some of LeBron's stinkers on the big stage need to take a closer look at some of Bird's own playoff showings.

[Rolando]

So you think Lebron having an extra MVP makes up for him having one less ring than Bird, who's 4-year stretch from 83-87 is better than Bran's entire Playoff resume?

Dude's career was basically cut short after his 9th season, and Bran's still trying to catch up to him in rings.

Plus, he has the edge in career averages, and his '86 Finals is better than anything Bran has done on that stage. Dude averaged 24/10/10/3 and shot lights out. Dude's beat the showtime Lakers twice, washed Hakeem & the Rockets in 86, had to get past the Pistons to even make the Finals, so you know he didn't have no cakewalks to the Finals like Bran's had. And even in the Finals losses to the Lakers, dude was putting up big all-around numbers.

I just don't see it right now. You add on the cultural impact and he's by far the greater player. All those things will be considered when people compare careers and all. If Lebron fails to deliver a ring in Cleveland, it will hold his legacy back. Good thing he's a very durable player, he will have a lot of seasons to prove his greatness, but Bird's first 9 seasons (before back injury) are better than Lebron's entire career up to this point, or at worst, like you said, dead even, and that's if you think Lebron's extra MVP is worth more than Bird's 1st ring in his 2nd NBA season, putting up 22/14/6 for the Playoffs that year.

Dude has beaten Dr.J's Sixers, Moses Malone's Rockets, Bernard King's Knicks, Hakeem's Rockets, Bad Boy Pistons and other great teams in his career to earn those rings, who was Lebron's toughest opponent that he beat? The 2013 Spurs, who were up 3 - 2 on them and had one of the greatest choke jobs in NBA history...2nd being the OKC Thunder, that were a mis-match and had none of their players in their primes yet..

It's just not comparable to me right now. Lebron needs to do more.

And Repped.

[Prometheus]

So you think Lebron having an extra MVP makes up for him having one less ring than Bird, who's 4-year stretch from 83-87 is better than Bran's entire Playoff resume?

Dude's career was basically cut short after his 9th season, and Bran's still trying to catch up to him in rings.

Plus, he has the edge in career averages, and his '86 Finals is better than anything Bran has done on that stage. Dude averaged 24/10/10/3 and shot lights out. Dude's beat the showtime Lakers twice, washed Hakeem & the Rockets in 86, had to get past the Pistons to even make the Finals, so you know he didn't have no cakewalks to the Finals like Bran's had. And even in the Finals losses to the Lakers, dude was putting up big all-around numbers.

I just don't see it right now. You add on the cultural impact and he's by far the greater player. All those things will be considered when people compare careers and all. If Lebron fails to deliver a ring in Cleveland, it will hold his legacy back. Good thing he's a very durable player, he will have a lot of seasons to prove his greatness, but Bird's first 9 seasons (before back injury) are better than Lebron's entire career up to this point, or at worst, like you said, dead even, and that's if you think Lebron's extra MVP is worth more than Bird's 1st ring in his 2nd NBA season, putting up 22/14/6 for the Playoffs that year.

Dude has beaten Dr.J's Sixers, Moses Malone's Rockets, Bernard King's Knicks, Hakeem's Rockets, Bad Boy Pistons and other great teams in his career to earn those rings, who was Lebron's toughest opponent that he beat? The 2013 Spurs, who were up 3 - 2 on them and had one of the greatest choke jobs in NBA history...2nd being the OKC Thunder, that were a mis-match and had none of their players in their primes yet..

It's just not comparable to me right now. Lebron needs to do more.

I respect the fact that you're a kobe homer who actually makes an effort to be reasonable, but you're really just cherry-picking whichever facts help your case. You're over-thinking it and not looking at the whole picture.

Bird was a very productive all-around player who made it to the Finals five times and won three championships in twelve seasons.

LeBron is a slightly more productive all-around player who has gone to the Finals five times and won two championships so far in eleven seasons.

LeBron has carried a greater burden on offense than Bird throughout his career, as both a scorer and a playmaker. This is evident in their numbers and really not up for debate. I would say it's also not up for debate that LeBron is a far superior defensive player (certainly much more versatile). Bird's only clear production advantage was his rebounding.

I would still pick Bird for my team, because I trust his composure, leadership, decision-making and championship attitude in ways that I do not trust LeBron nearly as much.

But you said Bird is obviously better so far in terms of accolades, which is obviously NOT the case. You believe that Bird's resume is worth more because of your interpretation of its context, not because it's actually a better resume.

[SugarHill]

LeBron better than Bird? No
LeBron better than Pippen? A little
A lot

Anyone who honestly thinks Pippen and LeBron is debatable and isn't trolling might actually be retarded.

[Quickening]

Bird statistically isn't close to Lebron, especially if you factor in pace, which you would be a retard not to, when comparing different era players.

[colts19]

I think the more you watch and listen to lebron, the more you see he just doesn't have the mental toughness of Bird. Lebron is a great player, but the way he is falling off this early is shocking.

If you watched Bird you can see the difference/

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Pippen was a MUCH better defender than Lebron can ever hope to be but Lebron is better overall since Pippen was too soft on offense.

Bird is no question better than both

[Kvnzhangyay]

People that have watched Bird/Pippen would know that Bird and Lebron is a tossup (Bird obviously has the slight edge right now but Lebron is practically guarenteed to surpass him at the end of his career).

And cmon man people DONT think Lebron> Pippen? :roll: :roll:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird statistically isn't close to Lebron, especially if you factor in pace, which you would be a retard not to, when comparing different era players.

Same old, same old ignorant, kiddie argument :rolleyes: Difference of pace from now to the 80's is not really considerable, especially when regarding star players.

Bird was averaging the same at today's pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
Even in 1992, with a completely wrecked up back, after surgeries on heels and back, years of extremely physical basketball, when he couldn't even practice much, when he was in conditions that most players wouldn't even have gone through... Larry averaged 20/10/7/1/1, through the course of 45 games, Celtics' average pace of 95.8.

Celtics had the 2nd worst record before Larry got there, were in a complete mess as a franchise... as a rookie with basically the same core roster, he improved them by 32-wins, leading them to the best record and ECF.
In his 2nd year, with Cowens gone and the main addition of Robert Parish, he leads them to the title.

1984 Playoffs, when his teammates were really underperforming he leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title, against terrific competition.

1986 he leads the GOAT team, only losing once at home all year... Another ring, only player that averaged a triple-double in a Finals series (rounding up the numbers).

When he was out injured, they got considerably worse. And even when he returned as a shell, was able to improve them considerably.

Bird was playing in the thoughest era when you consider top teams and star players, also in the toughest conference and probably the GOAT era for SF's overall (position he spent his prime playing).
Celtics led by him beat the showtime Lakers, Bad Boys Pistons, Malone/Erving 76ers, Hakeem/Sampson Rockets, 80's Bucks, King's Knicks.....
He played in the same era as Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Moses, Dr J, Hakeem, Wilkins, Isiah, Barkley, Malone, King, Dantley, Moncrief....

....

All of the above are just some examples, the main ones.
Sorry, LeBron ain't ****ing with that... And if you switch their "situations" Bird would've had more success than James, while LeBron would've had less success than Larry.
Bron played/plays in a much weaker conference, league didn't have the same level of superstars while he's winning MVP's, Bird faced much greater competition. Not to mention that Bron joined two ESTABLISHED top10 players (one even argued as top3) and couldn't win more than 2 then "quit", in a weak conference... And now that he joined Love/Kyrie, shit ain't working that well, let's see though. Bird in those "positions"? :eek: Game over :lol

Plus, Bird was a better shooter, better rebounder, better pure passer, better team and post defender, better footwork, better postgame, better touch around the rim with both hands, higher IQ, greater leader, much tougher physically and mentally, better in the clutch, better at meshing with any strategy and teammate while still dominating, while teammates do their thing and the team dominates....

[JT123]

Same old, same old ignorant, kiddie argument :rolleyes: Difference of pace from now to the 80's is not really considerable, especially when regarding star players.

Bird was averaging the same at today's pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
Even in 1992, with a completely wrecked up back, after surgeries on heels and back, years of extremely physical basketball, when he couldn't even practice much, when he was in conditions that most players wouldn't even have gone through... Larry averaged 20/10/7/1/1, through the course of 45 games, Celtics' average pace of 95.8.

Celtics had the 2nd worst record before Larry got there, were in a complete mess as a franchise... as a rookie with basically the same core roster, he improved them by 32-wins, leading them to the best record and ECF.
In his 2nd year, with Cowens gone and the main addition of Robert Parish, he leads them to the title.

1984 Playoffs, when his teammates were really underperforming he leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title, against terrific competition.

1986 he leads the GOAT team, only losing once at home all year... Another ring, only player that averaged a triple-double in a Finals series (rounding up the numbers).

When he was out injured, they got considerably worse. And even when he returned as a shell, was able to improve them considerably.

Bird was playing in the thoughest era when you consider top teams and star players, also in the toughest conference and probably the GOAT era for SF's overall (position he spent his prime playing).
Celtics led by him beat the showtime Lakers, Bad Boys Pistons, Malone/Erving 76ers, Hakeem/Sampson Rockets, 80's Bucks, King's Knicks.....
He played in the same era as Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Moses, Dr J, Hakeem, Wilkins, Isiah, Barkley, Malone, King, Dantley, Moncrief....

....

All of the above are just some examples, the main ones.
Sorry, LeBron ain't ****ing with that... And if you switch their "situations" Bird would've had more success than James, while LeBron would've had less success than Larry.
Bron played/plays in a much weaker conference, league didn't have the same level of superstars while he's winning MVP's, Bird faced much greater competition. Not to mention that Bron joined two ESTABLISHED top10 players (one even argued as top3) and couldn't win more than 2 then "quit", in a weak conference... And now that he joined Love/Kyrie, shit ain't working that well, let's see though. Bird in those "positions"? :eek: Game over :lol

Plus, Bird was a better shooter, better rebounder, better pure passer, better team and post defender, better footwork, better postgame, better touch around the rim with both hands, higher IQ, greater leader, much tougher physically and mentally, better in the clutch, better at meshing with any strategy and teammate while still dominating, while teammates do their thing and the team dominates....

Bron is better than Bird, end of story. Keep writing more essay's though, they are funny. :lol

[kennethgriffin]

hes better than pippen

but hes slipping on the alltime rankings a bit

1. kareem
2. jordan
3. russell
4. wilt
5. kobe
6. duncan
7. magic
8. bird
9. shaq
10. hakeem
11. oscar
12. west
13. moses
14. lebron

[tpols]

Bird statistically isn't close to Lebron, especially if you factor in pace, which you would be a retard not to, when comparing different era players.

Yea but LeBron isnt close to bird in everything outside stats.. Intangibles/leadership/toughness/clutch ability.. And most importantly.. Ability to create at an elite level off ball.. Making his teammates better. When in lebrons case it's the inverse.

[bizil]

This comes to to Bron vs. Bird. Pip ain't even a part of the this equation. His lack of alpha dog gene puts him on a tier below in terms of peak value. When it comes to Bron vs. Bird, u could go either way. They are the two greatest passing forwards of all time. Bird is more clutch and I would rather have him as my go to scorer. But on both sides of the ball, Bron is the most versatile player of all time. So peak wise, i will take Bron narrowly over Bird. GOAT wise is close too. If Bron hasn't passed Bird by now GOAT wise (which u can make the argument for) its inevitable that he will. Once again, won't argue one bit is somebody prefers Bird over Bron. Bron's defensive impact makes the difference for me.

[unbreakable]

Pippen was the defensive anchor for 6 rings and one of the best offensive SFs in the league, consistently..

dude was 50 yrs old and almost led the Blazers to the finals ... cmon now

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bron is better than Bird, end of story. Keep writing more essay's though, they are funny. :lol

:rolleyes: Took me less than 3min to write all of that, not even 500 words there... Do you find that difficult or something? Guess you must be dumb af then.
Pauk's lion essay had more than 1500 words btw, and was about... nothing.

Anyways, meltdown? :rolleyes: Due to what? LeBron's great success as off late, after joining yet again two stars? :lol While he can't really **** with some of Bird's stuff I've mentioned there...

Are you that mad to make a thread about it though? :oldlol: As they say, rent free.

Anyways, I shouldn't even be responding to such an ignorant child. Plus, I'm not even hating on LeBron like that, he's top10 in my book and #2 GOAT SF.
Moving on...

[navy]

Lebron has had 1 bad regular season start in his entire career and Pippen has overtaken him. Not overtaken, Lebron was never better than Pippen. Excuse me.

ISH in a nutshell.


Do you realize how stacked the Bulls were if Jordan was playing with a player better than Lebron James for basically his entire relevant career? What the hell?

[3ball]

we can't just consider stats.. we have to evaluate how good these guys are to adjusting to teammates.

[3ball]

we see lebron routinely get contained for 15 point and 22 point impactless nights against boris diaw, fossil pierce, and unathletic teams like the Spurs and Mavs.

the notion that he could get 61 points in the Finals against the goat confidence and swag of Bill Russell's 4-time, defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back champions, is ridiculous.

lebron would crap his paints, let alone get 61 shooting the shots he hates the most - mid-range and all contested, low-percentage two-pointers - no waiting for the easy stuff like he tries to do today.

therefore, lebron < elgin baylor, let alone bird... with bird, he could and get his production off-ball AND on-ball - we have to take into consideration how these guys adjust to teammates... not just stats.

scottie is actually pretty garbage... even jordan's enemies like isiah and other greats concur.

[unbreakable]

Do you realize how stacked the Bulls were if Jordan was playing with a player better than Lebron James for basically his entire relevant career? What the hell?


every goofball idiot knows the bulls were insanely stacked..

2 top 5 players on the same team (2 best perimeter players actually).. and one of the GOAT defensive/rebounding anchors in Rodman, 6thMOY kukoc, vets like harper, kerr etc.

FOH :biggums:

[riseagainst]

we see lebron routinely get contained for 15 point and 22 point impactless nights against boris diaw, fossil pierce, and unathletic teams like the Spurs and Mavs.

the notion that he could get 61 points in the Finals against the goat confidence and swag of Bill Russell's 4-time, defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back champions, is ridiculous.

lebron would crap his paints, let alone get 61 shooting the shots he hates the most - mid-range and all contested, low-percentage two-pointers - no waiting for the easy stuff like he tries to do today.

therefore, lebron < elgin baylor, let alone bird... with bird, he could and get his production off-ball AND on-ball - we have to take into consideration how these guys adjust to teammates... not just stats.

scottie is actually pretty garbage... even jordan's enemies like isiah and other greats concur.


this won't end well.
:oldlol:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Same old, same old ignorant, kiddie argument :rolleyes: Difference of pace from now to the 80's is not really considerable, especially when regarding star players.

Bird was averaging the same at today's pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
Even in 1992, with a completely wrecked up back, after surgeries on heels and back, years of extremely physical basketball, when he couldn't even practice much, when he was in conditions that most players wouldn't even have gone through... Larry averaged 20/10/7/1/1, through the course of 45 games, Celtics' average pace of 95.8.

Celtics had the 2nd worst record before Larry got there, were in a complete mess as a franchise... as a rookie with basically the same core roster, he improved them by 32-wins, leading them to the best record and ECF.
In his 2nd year, with Cowens gone and the main addition of Robert Parish, he leads them to the title.

1984 Playoffs, when his teammates were really underperforming he leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title, against terrific competition.

1986 he leads the GOAT team, only losing once at home all year... Another ring, only player that averaged a triple-double in a Finals series (rounding up the numbers).

When he was out injured, they got considerably worse. And even when he returned as a shell, was able to improve them considerably.

Bird was playing in the thoughest era when you consider top teams and star players, also in the toughest conference and probably the GOAT era for SF's overall (position he spent his prime playing).
Celtics led by him beat the showtime Lakers, Bad Boys Pistons, Malone/Erving 76ers, Hakeem/Sampson Rockets, 80's Bucks, King's Knicks.....
He played in the same era as Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Moses, Dr J, Hakeem, Wilkins, Isiah, Barkley, Malone, King, Dantley, Moncrief....

....

All of the above are just some examples, the main ones.
Sorry, LeBron ain't ****ing with that... And if you switch their "situations" Bird would've had more success than James, while LeBron would've had less success than Larry.
Bron played/plays in a much weaker conference, league didn't have the same level of superstars while he's winning MVP's, Bird faced much greater competition. Not to mention that Bron joined two ESTABLISHED top10 players (one even argued as top3) and couldn't win more than 2 then "quit", in a weak conference... And now that he joined Love/Kyrie, shit ain't working that well, let's see though. Bird in those "positions"? :eek: Game over :lol

Plus, Bird was a better shooter, better rebounder, better pure passer, better team and post defender, better footwork, better postgame, better touch around the rim with both hands, higher IQ, greater leader, much tougher physically and mentally, better in the clutch, better at meshing with any strategy and teammate while still dominating, while teammates do their thing and the team dominates....

damn..........:applause: :applause:

[colts19]

Lebron is the more physically talented player. Bird however was more skilled and clearly made his teammates better. Pippen was really when you consider everything not that far below Lebron. But clearly below.

[knicksman]

Only low standard betas would ever dare compare a ringchasers ring to that of a 1st option

[SouBeachTalents]

Only low standard betas would ever dare compare a ringchasers ring to that of a 1st option

Let's compare him to the Knicks 1st options on their title teams from the past 40 years

[knicksman]

Let's compare him to the Knicks 1st options on their title teams from the past 40 years

Why you gotta be so rude?

[Dro]

Bird statistically isn't close to Lebron, especially if you factor in pace, which you would be a retard not to, when comparing different era players.
:facepalm

[coin24]

Bran is a media hyped bullshit "superstar".

[Papaya Petee]

I'm not a fan of LeBron at all, but some of you are feeding yourself this bullshit you don't even believe in to fit in with the crowd, when in reality you sound like a bunch of retards :roll: :roll: :roll: Delusional to say the least.

LeBron and Bird right now in terms of accomplishments are probably equal, with LeBron being individually slightly better. If you have Bird over LeBron right now that's fine, but its super close.

Pippen? :lol :lol Are you kidding me? I don't even have to write anything about that, Pippen isn't 1\5th of the player LeBron is.

You can hate him for his personality or whatever you want to, but don't try to feed this garbage down people's throats when you know its just false.

[Bigsmoke]

hes better than pippen

but hes slipping on the alltime rankings a bit

1. kareem
2. jordan
3. russell
4. wilt
5. kobe
6. duncan
7. magic
8. bird
9. shaq
10. hakeem
11. oscar
12. west
13. moses
14. lebron

You're acting like Wilt didn't have his flaws in the playoffs when he was playing.

West 1-9 in the Finals

[Suguru101]

Bird's career is better than LeBron's so far.

But 2013 LeBron is a better player than Bird ever was, so was 2012 LeBron.

Some people here really arguing that Bird was a better team defender.... what does that even mean? LeBron is a better help and one one one defender. Post might be a wash what with LeBron's strength.

LeBron is a better ball handler, equal passers, Bird is a better regular season rebounder, though not by much in the playoffs/Finals.

Someone really said Bird is a "two handed finisher around the rim"... :roll:

LeBron is the best finisher around the rim of any perimeter player ever.

Anyways, what it comes down to is, 2012-2013 LeBron was able to play defense in a way Bird couldn't even dream of. It was close to Pippen level. Combine that with the fact that Bird, though a better shooter, wasn't that much better a scorer, gives the nod to LeBron.

[Heatles201]

Lebron has had 1 bad regular season start in his entire career and Pippen has overtaken him. Not overtaken, Lebron was never better than Pippen. Excuse me.

ISH in a nutshell.


Do you realize how stacked the Bulls were if Jordan was playing with a player better than Lebron James for basically his entire relevant career? What the hell?


At the end of the day People hate greatness in general. I don't know why.
Do people hate the 76ers? and bad teams? sure, but when it comes down to it what teams do people really hate? ex: the yankees ( 27 rings) the lakers ( won multiple nba championships), the cowboys ( one time dominated the nfl) and so on. You don't hear people hating SCRUBS in fact its the opposite grown men out here praise Brian Scalabrine when the dude was a flat out scrub

[Megabox!]

I'm not a fan of LeBron at all, but some of you are feeding yourself this bullshit you don't even believe in to fit in with the crowd, when in reality you sound like a bunch of retards :roll: :roll: :roll: Delusional to say the least.

LeBron and Bird right now in terms of accomplishments are probably equal, with LeBron being individually slightly better. If you have Bird over LeBron right now that's fine, but its super close.

Pippen? :lol :lol Are you kidding me? I don't even have to write anything about that, Pippen isn't 1\5th of the player LeBron is.

You can hate him for his personality or whatever you want to, but don't try to feed this garbage down people's throats when you know its just false.
Great post. But let's be honest, a good chunk of the posters on this board are f*cking retarded

[Prometheus]

Bird's career is better than LeBron's so far.

But 2013 LeBron is a better player than Bird ever was, so was 2012 LeBron.

Some people here really arguing that Bird was a better team defender.... what does that even mean? LeBron is a better help and one one one defender. Post might be a wash what with LeBron's strength.

LeBron is a better ball handler, equal passers, Bird is a better regular season rebounder, though not by much in the playoffs/Finals.

Someone really said Bird is a "two handed finisher around the rim"... :roll:

LeBron is the best finisher around the rim of any perimeter player ever.

Anyways, what it comes down to is, 2012-2013 LeBron was able to play defense in a way Bird couldn't even dream of. It was close to Pippen level. Combine that with the fact that Bird, though a better shooter, wasn't that much better a scorer, gives the nod to LeBron.

Actually LeBron is a better scorer than Bird. Bird has better fundamentals and a much better shot, of course, but LeBron is more of a threat to score for his career. And Bird is a slightly better passer (more talented, better vision) but LeBron is a more productive playmaker because his superior scoring ability draws more defensive attention.

[pauk]

Bird vs Lebron is arguable, both as players & career, very close.

But Pippen?

[coin24]

Bird vs Lebron is arguable, both as players & career, very close.

But Pippen?


Bran is more of a Pippen than a Jordan...

[pauk]

Bran is more of a Pippen than a Jordan...

Lebron is of that breed, absolutely, super versatile players on both ends......

But unfortunately, Lebron is the best of that breed in NBA history.... a Pippen on supercharge & turbo.... no matter if you like the thought or not the reality is if Pippen was actually that good and/or better we wouldnt know who was the better player in that Bulls team and Jordan would highly likely losed a couple of MVPs & FMVPs to him, probably not even ending up GOAT.... luckily enough for MJ, Pippen wasnt that good... Hell, you could go as far as to say that if Pippen was that good or better than Lebron there is a big chance he would often look as the better & more impactful player compared to his teammate Jordan......

[La Frescobaldi]

Lebron is of that breed, absolutely, super versatile players on both ends......

But unfortunately, Lebron is the best of that breed in NBA history.... a Pippen on supercharge & turbo.... no matter if you like the thought or not the reality is if Pippen was actually that good and/or better we wouldnt know who was the better player in that Bulls team and Jordan would highly likely losed a couple of MVPs & FMVPs to him, probably not even ending up GOAT.... luckily enough for MJ, Pippen wasnt that good... Hell, you could go as far as to say that if Pippen was that good or better than Lebron there is a big chance he would often look as the better & more impactful player compared to his teammate Jordan......

Conjugate:
Lose
Lost
Have lost

I know it's your second language and all..... you really do write so exceptionally well that.... it matters

[3ball]

Actually LeBron is a better scorer than Bird. Bird has better fundamentals and a much better shot, of course, but LeBron is more of a threat to score for his career.


Bird played with much better teammates than Lebron's pre-Heat career, so Bird's usage was much lower - he never got full reign to take all the shots or undertake all the offensive burden like Lebron has - but replace Lebron on his first Cavs teams with Bird, and Bird scores as much or more than Lebron did.

also, keep in mind that certain player's games are designed to demolish a certain competition level, but they aren't as good when the competition goes up to the next level (i.e. christian laettner).

lebron's game is like laettner's, because although lebron has better regular season scoring numbers, in the Finals, he puts up worse stats than Larry (10% pace adjustment necessary, but keep in mind, larry has the lower usage):

Lebron Finals Stats: 24ppg, 8 rebs, 6 assists

Bird's Finals Stats: 24ppg, 12 rebs, 6 assists





And Bird is a slightly better passer (more talented, better vision) but LeBron is a more productive playmaker because his superior scoring ability draws more defensive attention.


Bird has never gotten nearly the time of possession of Lebron - if Bird had the same time of possession as Lebron, the Celtics would have sucked and Bird's teammates would have routinely underperformed (McHale definitely wouldn't have been HOF with Bird playing lebron-ball).

[305Baller]

I didnt see enough Bird.

[ILLsmak]

I'm not a fan of LeBron at all, but some of you are feeding yourself this bullshit you don't even believe in to fit in with the crowd, when in reality you sound like a bunch of retards :roll: :roll: :roll: Delusional to say the least.

LeBron and Bird right now in terms of accomplishments are probably equal, with LeBron being individually slightly better. If you have Bird over LeBron right now that's fine, but its super close.

Pippen? :lol :lol Are you kidding me? I don't even have to write anything about that, Pippen isn't 1\5th of the player LeBron is.

You can hate him for his personality or whatever you want to, but don't try to feed this garbage down people's throats when you know its just false.

I dunno man. Bird is better to me. I don't think it's close. It's no closer than MJ vs Kobe. I give no**** about stats. Stats are a record of what happened. It's a minimalist numerical representation of 48 minutes of basketball or, as people use them, years of basketball.

People say shit like BUT HE AVERAGED 2 MORE REBS THO. HE SHOT 55% INSTEAD OF 50%!! Really, in all honesty, that doesn't matter. If someone made one more shot out of 20, is that amazing? 2 more rebounds?

Bird went harder than Bron. Bird was more skilled. Bron, at his best, isn't even as good as Bird at his best, even though you'd think he would be because of his athletic gifts. Bird also fits into more teams. He always tries.

I still don't think Bron has done enough to be compared to Bird, when you think about how he accomplished what he accomplished. What Bron has done well is win some MVPs pre-Miami. From Miami until now, it's all been ****ed.

Context, eh.

-Smak

[aj1987]

I dunno man. Bird is better to me. I don't think it's close. It's no closer than MJ vs Kobe. I give no**** about stats. Stats are a record of what happened. It's a minimalist numerical representation of 48 minutes of basketball or, as people use them, years of basketball.

People say shit like BUT HE AVERAGED 2 MORE REBS THO. HE SHOT 55% INSTEAD OF 50%!! Really, in all honesty, that doesn't matter. If someone made one more shot out of 20, is that amazing? 2 more rebounds?

Bird went harder than Bron. Bird was more skilled. Bron, at his best, isn't even as good as Bird at his best, even though you'd think he would be because of his athletic gifts. Bird also fits into more teams. He always tries.

I still don't think Bron has done enough to be compared to Bird, when you think about how he accomplished what he accomplished. What Bron has done well is win some MVPs pre-Miami. From Miami until now, it's all been ****ed.

Context, eh.

-Smak
Stats are irrelevant. Why do you want to compare? Accolades? They're pretty much even. You must be insane if you honestly believe that LeBron at his best wasn't as good as Bird at his best.

4 MVP's, 2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, 8x All-NBA First Teams, 5x All-Defensive First Teams, 2x DPOY runner up, etc.. Still not good enough to be compared to Bird. :facepalm

The LeBron hate on this board is just unreal.

[sportjames23]

Agreed. Bird/MJ/Pippen > Lebron. let's all move on then and stop bringing this up again.


https://38.media.tumblr.com/5d287cc3b3a54b70e756754725795fd1/tumblr_mnotddvOdJ1r986t6o1_r3_500.gif

[RRR3]

I've yet to see a good argument as to what makes Bird obviously better than LeBron (or Kobe for that matter).

Seems like a bunch of nostalgia tbqh.

[pauk]

Conjugate:
Lose
Lost
Have lost

I know it's your second language and all..... you really do write so exceptionally well that.... it matters

Thx there, i try.

..and its more like my 8th language. Bosnian, Macedonian, Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Montenegrin, Danish and then English. :lebronamazed:

[JT123]

I've yet to see a good argument as to what makes Bird obviously better than LeBron (or Kobe for that matter).

Seems like a bunch of nostalgia tbqh.
QFT

[3ball]

so basically, we've reached consensus itt - we are going along with the all-time greats like isiah and webber that say scottie sucked.

[3ball]

Bird had could score in many more ways and was the far better shooter, so he was harder to stop when the game was on the line down the stretch.

[3ball]

I've yet to see a good argument as to what makes Bird obviously better than LeBron.


1) Bird could make a wider variety of shots, so he's harder to defensively gameplan against because he can adjust better - his offensive attack was much more diverse.

2) Bird was the better rebounder... unlike lebron, Bird could really bang down low, and ACTUALLY GUARDED POWER FORWARDS - everyone from Karl Malone and Barkely, to Dominique and Scottie.

3) Bird was a better passer - he got the same assists with far less time of possession... if Bird had taken as long with the ball as lebron to get his assists, the Celtics wouldn't have been nearly as good, and teammates would have routinely underperformed - certainly McHale would never have made the HOF playing lebron-ball... this is not a troll, it's for real - McHale would not have made the HOF playing lebron-ball... and that's a huge difference between Bird and Lebron, where Bird wins.

4) Bird was the better leader - he demanded and got more out of his teammates, and commanded respect from everyone.

5) Bird was more clutch and fearless... do i need to elaborate here, or can we all just think 2011, 4th quarters, lechoke and on and on... it's like night and day between the two players - Bird wins all the intangibles vs Lebron.

6) Bird fits in better with teammates - his more diverse offensive ability allowed him to adjust, something lebron can't do.

[bdreason]

Bird and Pippen aren't in the same category.


And Bird > LeBron.

[Kvnzhangyay]

1) Bird could make a wider variety of shots, so he's harder to defensively gameplan against because he can adjust better - his offensive attack was much more diverse.

2) Bird was the better rebounder... unlike lebron, Bird could really bang down low, and ACTUALLY GUARDED POWER FORWARDS - everyone from Karl Malone and Barkely, to Dominique and Scottie.

3) Bird was a better passer - he got the same assists with far less time of possession... if Bird had taken as long with the ball as lebron to get his assists, the Celtics wouldn't have been nearly as good, and teammates would have routinely underperformed - certainly McHale would never have made the HOF playing lebron-ball... this is not a troll, it's for real - McHale would not have made the HOF playing lebron-ball... and that's a huge difference between Bird and Lebron, where Bird wins.

4) Bird was the better leader - he demanded and got more out of his teammates, and commanded respect from everyone.

5) Bird was more clutch and fearless... do i need to elaborate here, or can we all just think 2011, 4th quarters, lechoke and on and on... it's like night and day between the two players - Bird wins all the intangibles vs Lebron.

6) Bird fits in better with teammates - his more diverse offensive ability allowed him to adjust, something lebron can't do.

those are just blanket arguments- thats not a good argument

[bdreason]

those are just blanket arguments- thats not a good argument


How about this argument;

You're headed into the NBA Finals, who do you take?



I find it hard to believe that anyone who watched both these guys play would choose LeBron.

[Angel Face]

Come on now, I like Pippen and don't like Lebron, but Lebron's all around game is better than Pippen. Pippen better defensively though and both isn't known to be clutch. Bird is clutch af.

Bird > Lebron > Pippen

[KingPush]

Bird>Lebron>Pippen


Right now



Whos knows what happens int he future though

[Collie]

One thing to note is that Bird unequivocally made his teammates better. There wasn't a single guy on Earth who wouldn't have liked to play with Larry Bird. If you played with the Legend, you would have become a better player.

On the other hand, Lebron does make his teammates better, but only on his terms. You first had to fit in with Lebron and played the game depending on how your strengths complemented his. For example, Bosh became a three point threat because that's what Lebron needed. Wade had to become a better off-ball player because Lebron was the primary ball handler.

With Bird, he would play according to how his teammates needed him to. They needed a guy to grab 20 rebounds? He'd do it. His teammates were primary post players like McHale and Walton? Bird would become a perimeter distributor and entry pass guy. You could place Bird in any team in NBA history, and he'd fit right in without disrupting anything. You can't say the same about Lebron.

[ILLsmak]

Stats are irrelevant. Why do you want to compare? Accolades? They're pretty much even. You must be insane if you honestly believe that LeBron at his best wasn't as good as Bird at his best.

4 MVP's, 2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, 8x All-NBA First Teams, 5x All-Defensive First Teams, 2x DPOY runner up, etc.. Still not good enough to be compared to Bird. :facepalm

The LeBron hate on this board is just unreal.

yea but the thing is Bird is top 5, could even be top 3. Bron has no argument for top 5. Nobody is hating Bron, he just hasn't done what some of those guys did and may not ever. I think you are assuming he's just going to keep winning MVPs and FMVPs... he may, but he also may not. His window is closing.

Dudes who want an argument, think of all of the people who played vs Bird and were like oJesus. Bird shit all over MJ many times. Bird shit all over Magic. All of those guys, you really think they're gonna say, unless they have something against Bird (like say Isiah, who said Bird would just be another guy if he was black), that LeBron is a better player than Bird? You're taking LeBron on your team if you have to win a championship or die, over Bird?

I dunno. I think we just value different things. It's not close in terms of comparing all time greats. Like I said, I see it as MJ vs Kobe type comparison. Plenty of people want to believe one is as good as the other, but sadly...

It's mainly media people and fans trying to make that argument, anyway.

-Smak

[Papaya Petee]

1) Bird could make a wider variety of shots, so he's harder to defensively gameplan against because he can adjust better - his offensive attack was much more diverse.

2) Bird was the better rebounder... unlike lebron, Bird could really bang down low, and ACTUALLY GUARDED POWER FORWARDS - everyone from Karl Malone and Barkely, to Dominique and Scottie.

3) Bird was a better passer - he got the same assists with far less time of possession... if Bird had taken as long with the ball as lebron to get his assists, the Celtics wouldn't have been nearly as good, and teammates would have routinely underperformed - certainly McHale would never have made the HOF playing lebron-ball... this is not a troll, it's for real - McHale would not have made the HOF playing lebron-ball... and that's a huge difference between Bird and Lebron, where Bird wins.

4) Bird was the better leader - he demanded and got more out of his teammates, and commanded respect from everyone.

5) Bird was more clutch and fearless... do i need to elaborate here, or can we all just think 2011, 4th quarters, lechoke and on and on... it's like night and day between the two players - Bird wins all the intangibles vs Lebron.

6) Bird fits in better with teammates - his more diverse offensive ability allowed him to adjust, something lebron can't do.

Once again not arguing Bird vs LeBron because I don't care, but 80% of what you posted here is opinion based bullshit with zero facts to back it up.

[Marchesk]

Hondo > Pippen, if you're going to throw Scottie in the mix

[3ball]

Once again not arguing Bird vs LeBron because I don't care, but 80% of what you posted here is opinion based bullshit with zero facts to back it up.
it's all common knowledge.

everyone knows bird is the better leader than lebron.

everyone knows bird is more clutch and fearless than lebron.

everyone knows bird is the better rebounder than lebron.

everyone knows bird can adjust his game better and fit in with teammates better than lebron.

the other two are more debateable among fans, but very arguable - the other two were 1) that bird was a better passer (less time of possession to get the same number of assists), and 2) that he can make a wider variety of shots, not just 3-pointers and at-rim like lebron, so bird is harder to gameplan for.

[DMAVS41]

No way, jose.

Bird and Pippen would dismantle the current East 1v5.. nobody could phase them, mentally or physically.

Why did some of yall fall for Lebron's hype? 2 rings and yall had him over Pip and Bird?

Thats basketball blasphemy :no:

Lebron became a better player than Pippen ever was in like year 3 of his career.

As for Bird...the clear cut two best small forwards ever. Depends on what else Lebron does...

[aj1987]

yea but the thing is Bird is top 5, could even be top 3.
Are you being serious? Shaq/MJ/BR/KAJ/Duncan/Magic are above Bird. Arguments could be made for Hakeem (one less ring and MVP but 2 DPOY's more than Bird) and Wilt. Bird is DEFINITELY not top 5. Not even close to being top 3.


Bron has no argument for top 5.
And what argument does Bird have? LeBron is as close to being above Bird as anyone else.


Nobody is hating Bron, he just hasn't done what some of those guys did and may not ever.
What hasn't LeBron done? Lead his team to championships, while leading in points, rebounds, assists, steals, etc.? Being the BEST defender on championship teams? Honestly, what has Bird done better than LeBron? LeBron has ALWAYS been pretty much the leader or top 3 in all major statistical categories throughout his career.


I think you are assuming he's just going to keep winning MVPs and FMVPs... he may, but he also may not. His window is closing.
Bird may be better, but lets not act like it's not close.


You're taking LeBron on your team if you have to win a championship or die, over Bird?
Considering the FACT that LeBron won only one ring less than Bird, while playing on weaker teams than the ones which Bird played on, yes. It's pretty close though. I wouldn't call you an idiot for picking Bird.


It's mainly media people and fans trying to make that argument, anyway.

-Smak
Don't forget nostalgia.

-Smfh

[3ball]

Shaq/Duncan/ are above Bird.


hold the phone here bud... bird is better than duncan and shaq - hear me out - those guys were big men that had to fit into a system and couldn't control the game as much as bird could - bird was a playmaker... he WAS the system.

now sometimes a big man can be SO dominant like KAJ, that it doesn't matter that they aren't a ballhandling playmaker... and shaq was actually this guy, but only for a VERY short period of time - his dominant prime was very short.

but here's an example of what i'm talking about - i remember when duncan had no ability to control the way the games were going when he lost with Team USA against international competition in 2004 - the whole team was playing like OKC, where they just took turns going 1-on-1... being a big man, Duncan was powerless to change it - Otoh, Bird would have been the leading playmaker on that team, and would have been able to affect that situation much better.





Honestly, what has Bird done better than LeBron?


this much is confirmed: bird was a better rebounder, better at all intangibles like clutch, fearlessness, and leadership, and he had superior scoring versatility which allowed him to fit in better with teammates and made his game less exploitable.




while playing on weaker teams than the ones which Bird played on


lebron's championship teams were not weaker than bird's.

bird's #2 was not as good as wade... when lebron first joined the heat, wade was on lebron's level - it was like having two lebrons on the same team - remember that?

[aj1987]

hold the phone here bud... bird is better than duncan and shaq - hear me out - those guys were big men that had to fit into a system and couldn't control the game as much as bird could - bird was a playmaker... he WAS the system.

now sometimes a big man can be SO dominant like KAJ, that it doesn't matter that they aren't a ballhandling playmaker... and shaq was actually this guy, but only for a VERY short period of time - his dominant prime was very short.

but here's an example of what i'm talking about - i remember when duncan had no ability to control the way the games were going when he lost with Team USA against international competition in 2004 - the whole team was playing like OKC, where they just took turns going 1-on-1... being a big man, Duncan was powerless to change it - Otoh, Bird would have been the leading playmaker on that team, and would have been able to affect that situation much better.
You're an idiot. You've always been one and you always will be. Unless you're a troll account for a bored kid, I actually feel sorry for you. That being said, Bird has NO argument over Duncan and Shaq.




this much is confirmed: bird was a better rebounder, better at all intangibles like clutch, fearlessness, and leadership, and he had superior scoring versatility which allowed him to fit in better with teammates and made his game less exploitable.
Almost all of what you've said is opinion. LeBron is pretty much on par with Bird when it comes to rebounding the in Playoffs (adjusted for pace).



lebron's championship teams were not weaker than bird's.

bird's #2 was not as good as wade... when lebron first joined the heat, wade was on lebron's level - it was like having two lebrons on the same team - remember that?
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

You do realize that Wade was constantly injured since game 5 of the '11 Finals, right? Of course you don't.

Oh, and are you forgetting that Bird played with Tiny, Cedric, Ainge, Parish, McHale, DJ, etc.?

[3ball]

Bird has NO argument over Duncan and Shaq.


NO argument?... now you are the one losing it like a girl.





Almost all of what you've said is opinion. LeBron is pretty much on par with Bird when it comes to rebounding the in Playoffs (adjusted for pace).


no, it is common knowledge by everyone (including you) that bird is a better rebounder, better defender on power forwards, better banger inside, better at all intangibles, more versatile scorer so he fits in better with teammates.

regarding that last one (being able to fit in better with teammates) - can you imagine Mchale playing lebron-ball??... what a travesty that would be.






You do realize that Wade was constantly injured since game 5 of the '11 Finals, right? Of course you don't.


this is a massive exaggeration and an indication of your severe bias... nothing else needs to be said here.





Oh, and are you forgetting that Bird played with Tiny, Cedric, Ainge, Parish, McHale, DJ, etc.?


bosh is as good as mchale.... but bosh was the #3.... McHale was Bird's #2.

btw, i notice that now you claim ainge is better than chalmers, but i'm pretty sure i saw you in another thread claiming how ainge was garbage... maybe it was someone else.

[aj1987]

NO argument?... now you are the one losing it like a girl.
How am I losing it? Again, Bird has NO argument over Shaq/Duncan.



no, it is common knowledge by everyone (including you) that bird is a better rebounder, better defender on power forwards, better banger inside, better at all intangibles, more versatile scorer so he fits in better with teammates.

regarding that last one (being able to fit in better with teammates) - can you imagine Mchale playing lebron-ball??... what a travesty that would be.
Please stop posting, retard.



this is a massive exaggeration and an indication of your severe bias... nothing else needs to be said here.
Missed 17 games in '12 (66 game season), 13 games in '13, 28 games in '14. There's a reason why he dropped of SEVERELY from '11 onwards. His injuries have limited him. Healthy Wade is one of the greatest ever, but he hasn't been healthy since then.

It's not bias you *** dumpster, those are facts.




bosh is as good as mchale.... but bosh was the #3.... McHale was Bird's #2.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

You REALLY need to stop talking about basketball.


btw, i notice that now you claim ainge is better than chalmers, but i'm pretty sure i saw you in another thread claiming how ainge was garbage... maybe it was someone else.
When the **** did I say Ainge was better than Chalmers? I'm going to say it now though. Ainge >>>>>>> Chalmers.

[Prometheus]

3ball literally ruins every thread he posts in. Will continue arguing until he has the last word, no matter the circumstances. Dude is terrifying.

[3ball]

3ball literally ruins every thread he posts in. Will continue arguing until he has the last word, no matter the circumstances. Dude is terrifying.
look at the evidence we have with love and bosh - i mean, you can't GET more or better evidence than that....................

so when guys won't admit that McHale playing lebron-ball would have been a travesty and hurt his career, THEY are the ones being whatever all the names i was just called, not me.

[tpols]

aj your form of arguing is to just call somebody a retard.:facepalm

You have yet to refute the fact that bird's off ball passing playstyle makes him a more flexible fit for any great team.. and allows him to better is teammates and give them tons more individual opportunity.

Bird could score and dish from anywhere on the court and didnt use up much possession of the ball at all. It allowed others like mchale to develop great individual games themselves. Lebron doesnt make his teammates shine in the same way because he needs to be dribbling to be effective.. and it relegates them to spot up shooting much more over being given a chance to create off the dribble themselves.


Bird is also unquestionably tougher.. a guy who outrebounded prime moses malone, and loved to scrap down low. Doesnt flop, or make himself look weak in front of opponents. Lebron tries to be seen as a friendly, team first nice guy.. always PC with his comments and demeanor. Bird is the opposite. Does not give a fk. Brash and aggressive. Also mean as hell.


I would take a bird led team over a lebron led one anyday. Bird on the Heat allows wade and bosh to go back to their natural forms and the Heat gain some toughness inside.. which was always one of their weaknesses.

Larry spacing on the outside with wade and bosh working the midrange/paint.. 1/2 the dribbling, and pin point passing everywhere. :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

aj your form of arguing is to just call somebody a retard.:facepalm

You have yet to refute the fact that bird's off ball passing playstyle makes him a more flexible fit for any great team.. and allows him to better is teammates and give them tons more individual opportunity.

Bird could score and dish from anywhere on the court and didnt use up much possession of the ball at all. It allowed others like mchale to develop great individual games themselves. Lebron doesnt make his teammates shine in the same way because he needs to be dribbling to be effective.. and it relegates them to spot up shooting much more over being given a chance to create off the dribble themselves.


Bird is also unquestionably tougher.. a guy who outrebounded prime moses malone, and loved to scrap down low. Doesnt flop, or make himself look weak in front of opponents. Lebron tries to be seen as a friendly, team first nice guy.. always PC with his comments and demeanor. Bird is the opposite. Does not give a fk. Brash and aggressive. Also mean as hell.


I would take a bird led team over a lebron led one anyday. Bird on the Heat allows wade and bosh to go back to their natural forms and the Heat gain some toughness inside.. which was always one of their weaknesses.

Larry spacing on the outside with wade and bosh working the midrange/paint.. 1/2 the dribbling, and pin point passing everywhere. :bowdown:

Well said.

And just more evidence that individual defense isn't so vital...because if it was...Lebron would definitely be a much better player than Bird. Obviously important...especially at the 4 and 5, but so much else goes into the art of a basketball player.

But he's not...in fact, I'd agree with you that I'd rather have prime Bird than prime Lebron on my team unless I was able to know the exact team. You are dead on that Bird could make it work better in a variety of teams Lebron's style simply wouldn't work with.

I do think, however, that if I built the perfect teams around each...that Lebron would be ever so slightly more valuable. But it's close enough to a toss up there.

[tpols]

Well said.

And just more evidence that individual defense isn't so vital...because if it was...Lebron would definitely be a much better player than Bird. Obviously important...especially at the 4 and 5, but so much else goes into the art of a basketball player.

But he's not...in fact, I'd agree with you that I'd rather have prime Bird than prime Lebron on my team unless I was able to know the exact team. You are dead on that Bird could make it work better in a variety of teams Lebron's style simply wouldn't work with.

I do think, however, that if I built the perfect teams around each...that Lebron would be ever so slightly more valuable. But it's close enough to a toss up there.

Yup.. unless youre a 7 footer whose anchoring the defense.. like david robinson or something. But the heat's defense is of the perimeter trapping variety, which they had a top 5 or 6 defense before lebron or bosh ever came. Their defense would be at worst top 3 with larry and bosh joining.. minimal drop off in defense and massive potential for improvement on offense.

[aj1987]

aj your form of arguing is to just call somebody a retard.:facepalm
Because 3ball is genuinely retarded? You need to read his earlier posts about Kobe. That might change your mind.


Lebron doesnt make his teammates shine in the same way because he needs to be dribbling to be effective.. and it relegates them to spot up shooting much more over being given a chance to create off the dribble themselves.
Didn't the '11 Heat completely tear the league a new one after the bad start, even though they had a garbage ass bench and weren't all that good outside the big 3? I really don't remember Wade being a spot-up shooter the 4 years that LeBron was in Miami. I might not be remembering correctly, but didn't Wade take more 3's in the '09 season than he did in the 4 years WITH LeBron? That was LeBron's second option, BTW. The "LeBron turns his teammates into spot-up shooters" is just an idiotic argument.


Bird is also unquestionably tougher.. a guy who outrebounded prime moses malone, and loved to scrap down low. Doesnt flop, or make himself look weak in front of opponents. Lebron tries to be seen as a friendly, team first nice guy.. always PC with his comments and demeanor. Bird is the opposite. Does not give a fk. Brash and aggressive. Also mean as hell.
That doesn't change the FACT that LeBron has more points and assists than Bird, while attempting fewer shots in fewer games than Bird did. The 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's speak for themself.


I would take a bird led team over a lebron led one anyday.
I definitely would not call you out on it either.


Bird on the Heat allows wade and bosh to go back to their natural forms and the Heat gain some toughness inside.. which was always one of their weaknesses.
Injured Wade. Bosh who can't defend even DECENT bigs. Etc. Etc. Kid, as I said, you really need to watch a Heat game before you comment on its players. Miami would've definitely won in '11. Wade was still a monster. What about the defense though? Miami's defense worked because of its players' speed. Does Bird replicate LeBron's speed on the trapping defense, which was so lethal?


Larry spacing on the outside with wade and bosh working the midrange/paint.. 1/2 the dribbling, and pin point passing everywhere. :bowdown:
Again, Bird might be able to replicate the results, but he's not going to do better than LeBron. Bird playing on the Heat is not going to magically repair Wade's knees or turn Bosh into a man, who likes to play in the paint.

[3ball]

aj, you can't explain away the lebron-ball-inspired 92 ORtg the Heat mustered against the Spurs.

there is no Finals team in history that such a horrible offense would have beaten.

[DMAVS41]

Because 3ball is genuinely retarded? You need to read his earlier posts about Kobe. That might change your mind.


Didn't the '11 Heat completely tear the league a new one after the bad start, even though they had a garbage ass bench and weren't all that good outside the big 3? I really don't remember Wade being a spot-up shooter the 4 years that LeBron was in Miami. I might not be remembering correctly, but didn't Wade take more 3's in the '09 season than he did in the 4 years WITH LeBron? That was LeBron's second option, BTW. The "LeBron turns his teammates into spot-up shooters" is just an idiotic argument.


That doesn't change the FACT that LeBron has more points and assists than Bird, while attempting fewer shots in fewer games than Bird did. The 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's speak for themself.


I definitely would not call you out on it either.


Injured Wade. Bosh who can't defend even DECENT bigs. Etc. Etc. Kid, as I said, you really need to watch a Heat game before you comment on its players. Miami would've definitely won in '11. Wade was still a monster. What about the defense though? Miami's defense worked because of its players' speed. Does Bird replicate LeBron's speed on the trapping defense, which was so lethal?


Again, Bird might be able to replicate the results, but he's not going to do better than LeBron. Bird playing on the Heat is not going to magically repair Wade's knees or turn Bosh into a man, who likes to play in the paint.

Well...I don't think all of that has to happen.

These are broad discussions. Of course Bird isn't healing Wade's knee...tpols never claimed anything like that.

And I don't think Bird is coming close to beating the Spurs last year in place of Lebron either.

Also don't think Bird kills the Heat like Lebron did in the 11 finals.

But those are specific examples and not really what tpols or me would be getting it. Obviously in certain conditions Lebron would be better than Bird and vice versa.

However, I'm becoming more convinced that Lebron can really only play 1 style. Dominate the ball in his hands virtually an entire possession and hit guys with great passes for open shots. Nothing really wrong with that as it's been absurdly effective for his career to date.

My issue with that...is that when Lebron is then surrounded by other great players...it either marginalizes their games to an extent...or his own game can suffer...sometimes drastically so.

Take a guy like Bird and I don't see that happening. Kind of see the opposite actually...just like Dirk. Certain guys are just better suited to play with other greats....not sure Lebron is that guy unless the greats in question are defensive stoppers / spot up shooters that don't need the ball a lot.

This is why Lebron/Wade from the jump was a bad pairing and we all knew it. We knew they'd overcome and win a title or two, but it hardly was an optimal pairing.

But Bird and Wade? Damn near perfect. Bird can space the floor and post and board without the ball much better than Bron...so Wade could play his optimal style much better with Bird than Lebron...I think Bosh could as well.

Now, again, that is a specific example....but really, the truth is, at least on offense....being able to drain shots like Bird could really just allows you to be able to do so much.

It's why I think Dirk remains historically undervalued for what he brings to the table. The value of having a 7 footer set 100 screens a game and then can pick and pop at like 40% from the 3 point line is just hard to put a number on it. Put good players around that and it's damn near unstoppable...

There is just a difference in having options like that which Bird would give you off the ball...than having a guy hold the ball 15 seconds most possessions. Not sure which one is actually better overall given all the variables of help players get, but I'm convinced Bird's style of play would work better on loaded teams.

[aj1987]

My issue with that...is that when Lebron is then surrounded by other great players...it either marginalizes their games to an extent...or his own game can suffer...sometimes drastically so.
Bosh was never going to average the same numbers he put on on the Raptors. He went form being the #1 option to the #3 option. The same with Love. Kyrie is pretty much averaging the same and Wade, when he was healthy was putting up great numbers as well. Don't you remember Wade and LeBron dominating in '11, '12 (when healthy), and '13 (when healthy)? He was pretty much putting up the same numbers as '11 and '10, whenever he was healthy.

Even with Bird in LeBron's place, Bosh is never going to averaging 24/10, unless Bird decides to be the 3rd option (which would be just stupid).



aj, you can't explain away the lebron-ball-inspired 92 ORtg the Heat mustered against the Spurs.

there is no Finals team in history that such a horrible offense would have beaten.
I can live with the 4 Finals and 2 championships that LeBron carried my team to.

[tpols]

He doesnt need to repair Wade's knees.. Wade played great in the 2011 and 2012 playoffs/Finals.. he was only really terrible to start the 2013 playoffs and last year.

But, regarding 2013, when you dont face a single 50 win team until the Finals, and your first two rounds consist of the bucks and third string bulls.. it isnt like Bird would need to perform at anything above what his standard level was to make the finals that year(he also wouldnt have relegated bosh into a full time spot up 3 pt shooter like bron did against indy).. and of course wade was great against the spurs in 2013 and without bron choking in the first half of the series, the bird-led heat wouldve made quicker work of SAS.



No way they lose 2011 either. For all your talk about 2011 working with lebron and wade with regards to dribbling duties.. It didnt work!

As co-alphas the two collapsed on the highest stage because lebron didnt want to step on wades toes while he dominated, but then didnt know how to get himself back in his groove after taking himself out to accomodate wade's increased role from the '11 ECFs to the 11 finals.

It didnt work.

Wade had to take a step down in 2012 and allow lebron to have full reigns and thats when the teqam clicked and won a championship. With Bird, that 2011 collapse never happens. Bird is basically a better version of Dirk.. and they would rape the mavs. I say 3 titles in 4 years.. and larry would remain a heat player even after they lost in 2014.. and he definitely wouldnt have let his guys get beat by the biggest margin in nba history. Too much pride for that.. thered at least be some blood on the court.

[3ball]

I can live with the 4 Finals and 2 championships that LeBron carried my team to.
not sure why you got mad then, when i pointed out that Mchale would never have made the HOF and his career would have been hurt playing lebron-ball.

[DMAVS41]

Bosh was never going to average the same numbers he put on on the Raptors. He went form being the #1 option to the #3 option. The same with Love. Kyrie is pretty much averaging the same and Wade, when he was healthy was putting up great numbers as well. Don't you remember Wade and LeBron dominating in '11, '12 (when healthy), and '13 (when healthy)? He was pretty much putting up the same numbers as '11 and '10, whenever he was healthy.

Even with Bird in LeBron's place, Bosh is never going to averaging 24/10, unless Bird decides to be the 3rd option (which would be just stupid).



I can live with the 4 Finals and 2 championships that LeBron carried my team to.

It's not about the numbers....and I never said Bosh should average the same. It's about the style of play.

[bizil]

The one thing I'm enjoying about this discussion is THE FACT that Bron is being compared to Bird in great debate. People always compare MJ to Bron, but for me Bird and Magic are the proper comparisons to Lebron. Bron, Magic, and Bird are the basically THE BRIDGE from perimeter players to the power positions. So in that sense, they bring a versatility that even MJ, Kobe, West, Big O, Wade, Hondo, etc. can't bring.

GOAT wise, MJ is the man for Bron to try to conquer. But in terms of style of play, versatility, skillset, etc., Magic and Bird are the guys more similar in my opinion. And even Pippen or Grant Hill are better comparisons Only thing he really have in common with MJ or Kobe is freak athletic ability. Bron and Bird are both SO EPIC that u can't go wrong either way. Very different and YET very similar at the same time.

[aj1987]

not sure why you got mad then, when i pointed out that Mchale would never have made the HOF and his career would have been hurt playing lebron-ball.
Because 2 rings are going to hurt Bosh's chances of getting into the HOF, right?



It's not about the numbers....and I never said Bosh should average the same. It's about the style of play.

Why are you complaining about it, when it's extremely effective? You said it yourself. It's not like injured Wade is going to put up 25 PPG playing with Bird and Bosh is going to go back to playing in the post.


he also wouldnt have relegated bosh into a full time spot up 3 pt shooter like bron did against indy
Really? I remember Bosh shooting 50% from the 3 and having <40% FG%.


the bird-led heat wouldve made quicker work of SAS.
:oldlol:

ISH would've blamed Bird for not "shutting down" Green, Neal, Parker, Duncan, etc..



No way they lose 2011 either. For all your talk about 2011 working with lebron and wade with regards to dribbling duties.. It didnt work!
Probably. If Bird can get the Heat past the Bulls, they would've swept the Mav's without question.


Wade had to take a step down in 2012 and allow lebron to have full reigns and thats when the teqam clicked and won a championship.
WADE WAS INJURED AND HAD TO STEP BACK. You might not remember it, but he basically missed a third of the season.


With Bird, that 2011 collapse never happens.
Sure, if they get past the Bulls.


I say 3 titles in 4 years..
'11 for sure. '12 if they get past the Celtics and '13, I doubt it. 2 tiles.


and he definitely wouldnt have let his guys get beat by the biggest margin in nba history. Too much pride for that.. thered at least be some blood on the court.
Pride doesn't help Wade, Chalmers, etc. perform better.

Again, you can't go wrong with picking either, but lets not pretend like the gap is huge. The gap is extremely small (either way).

[DMAVS41]

Because 2 rings are going to hurt Bosh's chances of getting into the HOF, right?




Why are you complaining about it, when it's extremely effective? You said it yourself. It's not like injured Wade is going to put up 25 PPG playing with Bird and Bosh is going to go back to playing in the post.


Really? I remember Bosh shooting 50% from the 3 and having <40% FG%.


:oldlol:

ISH would've blamed Bird for not "shutting down" Green, Neal, Parker, Duncan, etc..



Probably. If Bird can get the Heat past the Bulls, they would've swept the Mav's without question.


WADE WAS INJURED AND HAD TO STEP BACK. You might not remember it, but he basically missed a third of the season.


Sure, if they get past the Bulls.


'11 for sure. '12 if they get past the Celtics and '13, I doubt it. 2 tiles.


Pride doesn't help Wade, Chalmers, etc. perform better.

You realize most of those quotes aren't mine...

[aj1987]

You realize most of those quotes aren't mine...
Yeah, fixed it. My bad.

[Elosha]

One can argue either way in the Larry v. Lebron debate. Personally, I'd take Larry Bird. Although he had some playoff failings, he was often clutch and came up with great plays time after time. He simply rises to the occasion more often than Lebron does.

Lebron is clearly better than Scottie Pippen, but those posters who are mocking Pippen and stating he's nowhere close to Lebron are way off base. Scottie was a bit of an inconsistent scorer, but in all of his years as a Bull from 91 through 98, he could usually be counted on for at least 18-20, 6, and 6. I also believe he was a bit better as a help defender and possibly a better individual defender than Lebron. He had a bit better lateral quickness and tenacity, especially when comparing Lebron's defense over the last 2+ seasons.

Also, Scottie was very comparable athletically to Lebron. He was extremely fast in the open court, and dunked just about as well as Lebron off one foot and better off of two feet. He was an excellent finisher with either right or left hands and had beautiful finger rolls and floaters as well as amazing dunks. Honestly, Pippen is one of the top athletes of all time in the NBA. He just gets overshadowed by Jordan.

Scottie's jumpshot, while fairly solid, was not as potent as Lebron's, which isn't to say Lebron is an all time great in that category by any means. Lebron's biggest advantage was his power; he can bull his way to the basket where Pippen might not be able to. Lebron is a more explosive and skilled scorer overall. Both are very good ballhandlers and equivalent playmakers and rebounders. Neither of them is particularly eager to take the last shot and both have noticeably come up short in big playoff moments.

In short, these are three of the top 10 SF in NBA history. Bird and Lebron are obviously near the top of that list, but Scottie can respectably compare to either of them.

[Hey Yo]

not sure why you got mad then, when i pointed out that Mchale would never have made the HOF and his career would have been hurt playing lebron-ball.
Was Chris Bosh's career headed into the direction of the HOF before he joined the Heat and LeBron ball?

[tpols]

Pride doesn't help Wade, Chalmers, etc. perform better.

Again, you can't go wrong with picking either, but lets not pretend like the gap is huge. The gap is extremely small (either way).

Pride in the form of leadership actually does and can make teammates perform better. The heat looked dead and unmotivated in the finals last year.. there was no commradery, not even a single rally. Its as if lebron wasnt even speaking in huddles and daydreaming about going back to cleveland.

Bird played in the boston Garden where it routinely got hotter in their building than what the temperature was in game 1 of last year in San Antonio. Guys dying on the court.. Bird could withstand some adversity, and tougher conditions.. he wouldnt be collapsing on the court in the 4th quarter because the air conditioning levels didnt quite meet his usual standards. :oldlol: :facepalm

Last years finals was such a sham.. all teamwork, motivation, and leadership were gone and lebron went down quiet with the sinking ship imo.



Sure, if they get past the Bulls.



You have to be kidding right.. ? prime larry bird, Chris bosh, and dwayne wade losing to the at the time struggling, derrick rose led chicago bulls.

:lol

[Milbuck]

Lol at Pippen. Might as well throw Alonzo Mourning into the mix the next time we're arguing Shaq vs Kareem :oldlol:

Imo, Lebron at his absolute highest level edges out Bird. But I think the difference in their skillsets, physique, mentality, etc is so vast that there's no way to predict how series would play out if you just swapped them. Both ends of the floor, Miami's style of play would have to change with Bird there. Their defense would no doubt suffer, Lebron's help defense and unreal versatility allowed them to do so many different things and have a vicious trapping defense..I don't see that with Bird..quality defender, but he's not quarterbacking that D the way Lebron did at his best. But I think Bird's superior off-ball game, jumper, post game, etc might enhance their offense. Wade would be able to play his game a bit more naturally, resume higher ball handling duties, and they could still run a similar offense except with less redundancy and even more elite shooting in Bird. If I had to do it, I say they win in 2011 and 2013. People are overrating Lebron's 2013 run and underrating his 2012 run imo.

[unbreakable]

Lol at Pippen. Might as well throw Alonzo Mourning into the mix the next time we're arguing Shaq vs Kareem :oldlol:




Zo has 6 rings? Zo was a co-alpha who routinely saved MJ aka Da GOATs ass in big moments?

Pip was robbed of atleast 1 Finals MVP and outplayed the GOAT plenty of times... youre talking out your ass if you think LBJ would ever outplay the GOAT.. he dont have the mental fortitude

smarten up kiddo:sleeping

[bizil]

For those that say Bird is the better fit with Wade over Bron are CORRECT! But u are CORRECT in terms of scoring areas they could dominate. And of course the floor spacing Bird would provide. But let's not get it twisted, Bron would be a better fit with Wade in terms of defense. The heat wouldn't be on Wade to always guard the other teams best perimeter scorer.

Wade was for many years Miami's de facto PG. Bron also took the pressure off Wade in that regard too. Bron and Wade both have PG pace and skillset in their game. Bird was more of a point forward in the halfcourt from his SF or PF spot. I mean shit, Bron-Wade, MJ-Pip, and West-Baylor is as good as it gets in terms of SG-SF combos.

So let's not get carried away with dissing Bron while saying Bird is BY FAR the better fit with Wade. U could certainly say that in terms of scoring skillset. But in other areas, Bron is just as good and AN EVEN better fit next to Wade.

[SouBeachTalents]

Was Chris Bosh's career headed into the direction of the HOF before he joined the Heat and LeBron ball?

**** no

[PsychoBe]

here we go underrating bird's defense because he's an "unathletic white guy" :lol

he was an extremely potent post-defender (bran can't even properly defend in the post), a fantastic help defender (had great length) and a great man-defender (you had to actually know how to play defense in that time period to get playing time)

anyone who didn't study bird's game in detail should not be replying in this thread at all.

[plowking]

I'm a bigger fan of Bird than Bron, even given Bron's time at Miami, but are people serious with picking Bird over Bron? I really don't think it is a discussion anymore.

He's achieved more than Bird has and he is just 29, and not to mention Bron at his peak was undoubtedly a better player. It's not a knock on Bird either, who I consider to have a top 6 peak, but it isn't better than Bron's.

I mean, anyone who has Bird ahead, explain it to me, because going by explanations in here, it seems like the typical Bron haters crusading again. Bron was better at his peak, he has achieved more accolades and Bron is as good or better playoff performer. What more are we basing it on, because Bron has him beat everywhere aside from clutch play.

[DMAVS41]

I'm a bigger fan of Bird than Bron, even given Bron's time at Miami, but are people serious with picking Bird over Bron? I really don't think it is a discussion anymore.

He's achieved more than Bird has and he is just 29, and not to mention Bron at his peak was undoubtedly a better player. It's not a knock on Bird either, who I consider to have a top 6 peak, but it isn't better than Bron's.

I mean, anyone who has Bird ahead, explain it to me, because going by explanations in here, it seems like the typical Bron haters crusading again. Bron was better at his peak, he has achieved more accolades and Bron is as good or better playoff performer. What more are we basing it on, because Bron has him beat everywhere aside from clutch play.

The bold is simply not true. I mean...I'm fine with someone saying peak Lebron was better, and I might agree, but this whole "undoubtedly" notion is total bullshit.

Peak/Prime Bird was a ****ing artist on the basketball court.

[tpols]

^Not only that.. but when the differences are so minimal, what does individual peak matter when talking fit for team? Lebron could peak 2% higher than Larry Bird.. but he reduces teammates ability/confidence by -10%, while Larry Bird increases it by +10% nullifying the individual advantage tenfold.

[mehyaM24]

I'm a bigger fan of Bird than Bron, even given Bron's time at Miami, but are people serious with picking Bird over Bron? I really don't think it is a discussion anymore.

He's achieved more than Bird has and he is just 29, and not to mention Bron at his peak was undoubtedly a better player. It's not a knock on Bird either, who I consider to have a top 6 peak, but it isn't better than Bron's.

I mean, anyone who has Bird ahead, explain it to me, because going by explanations in here, it seems like the typical Bron haters crusading again. Bron was better at his peak, he has achieved more accolades and Bron is as good or better playoff performer. What more are we basing it on, because Bron has him beat everywhere aside from clutch play.
interesting. who are the only players to have better peaks than lebron, IYO?

[bizil]

When it comes to Bird's defense, he was VERY GOOD defending PF's. The thing is Boston's glory days came with Bird at SF. Lineup up at SF, he's not nearly as good defending SF's on an island. And this is when u had to either double team a superstar, switch the matchup, or take your medicine on an island. So historically, Bird is classified as a SF even though he played lots of PF.

So in the defensive context, people think of him defending the premier SF's. Or having to switch off and let McHale take a crack at those guys. But once again, Bird was a very good defender at PF, so we can't forget that either.

[SouBeachTalents]

interesting. who are the only players to have better peaks than lebron, IYO?

IMO, I'd say Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Bird, and Magic

[mehyaM24]

IMO, I'd say Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Bird, and Magic
i cant cosign with wilt because of his ordinary playoff success (given that blocks and steals weren't recorded in that era is something to give credence to but still). the others are definitely arguable.

magic/bird/shaq/jordan/lebron = all interchangeable and in the same tier for me. i would say 2000 shaq is the greatest player i ever saw though.

[tpols]

IMO, I'd say Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Bird, and Magic
No KAJ? 2003 Duncan is certainly arguable.

[SouBeachTalents]

No KAJ? 2003 Duncan is certainly arguable.

Well the 5 I listed are ones I'd put ahead of LeBron, others like Duncan, Hakeem, and Kareem are definitely arguable as well

[SHAQisGOAT]

No KAJ? 2003 Duncan is certainly arguable.

Top5 peaks:

Shaq
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

[bizil]

Top5 peaks:

Shaq
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

I think that's a great top five peak. It goes to show how dominant a great alpha center can truly be. Shaq was really the last one we had. Duncan by all rights is an alpha dog center BUT he's listed at PF. That's the one thing I regret in today's game. The PF spot is thriving but the center position disappoints me.

[3ball]

given lebron's time in miami...


match up any all-time great with another all-time great and a top 2 PF, and they will do what lebron did in miami - lebron's team-hopping for the best talent DOES hurt his legacy - all his championships are the result of team-hopping.





typical Bron haters crusading again.


so pointing out lebron's flaws translates to "haters crusading" in lebron-stan talk.





What more are we basing it on, because Bron has him beat everywhere aside from clutch play.


and rebounding... and leadership... and defending power forwards and banging inside... and being a more versatile scorer that could adjust to teammates and opposition better.

btw, clutch is huge - and given that most things between lebron and bird are close, clutch definitely puts Bird over the top - clutch is that important.

[aj1987]

Pride in the form of leadership actually does and can make teammates perform better. The heat looked dead and unmotivated in the finals last year.. there was no commradery, not even a single rally. Its as if lebron wasnt even speaking in huddles and daydreaming about going back to cleveland.
I still don't see how that helps in making Wade healthier and Bosh play in the post.


Bird played in the boston Garden where it routinely got hotter in their building than what the temperature was in game 1 of last year in San Antonio. Guys dying on the court.. Bird could withstand some adversity, and tougher conditions.. he wouldnt be collapsing on the court in the 4th quarter because the air conditioning levels didnt quite meet his usual standards. :oldlol: :facepalm

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

He cramped up. Happens to players. Injuries are a part of the game. Even with PEAK Bird on the '14 Heat, the Spurs would've embarrassed them.


You have to be kidding right.. ? prime larry bird, Chris bosh, and dwayne wade losing to the at the time struggling, derrick rose led chicago bulls.

Rose struggled because of LeBron's defense. Wade was terrible in that series as well. As I said, if they get past the Bulls, they're winning for sure in '11. Bird wouldn't have choked as bas as LeBron did.

[Paul George 24]

LeBron > Pippen

pippen defence >>>>>>>>>>>>> lebron :banana:

[Paul George 24]

i cant cosign with wilt because of his ordinary playoff success (given that blocks and steals weren't recorded in that era is something to give credence to but still). the others are definitely arguable.

magic/bird/shaq/jordan/lebron = all interchangeable and in the same tier for me. i would say 2000 shaq is the greatest player i ever saw though.

lebron is same tier as jordan :roll: nice joke
but I haven't seen Jordan ever chock like lebron ever did and Jordan wouyld never team up with superstars to get a ring

[Paul George 24]

I still don't see how that helps in making Wade healthier and Bosh play in the post.



:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

He cramped up. Happens to players. Injuries are a part of the game. Even with PEAK Bird on the '14 Heat, the Spurs would've embarrassed them.


Rose struggled because of LeBron's defense. Wade was terrible in that series as well. As I said, if they get past the Bulls, they're winning for sure in '11. Bird wouldn't have choked as bas as LeBron did.

DEFINTELY WRONG,LEBRON NEVER DEFENCE ROSE 1 ON 1,WITHOUT WADE DOUBLE ROSE,LEBRON WILL NOT ABLE TO STOP ROSE :hammerhead: LEBRON IS ALWAYS A POOR MAN DEFENDER :rockon:

[plowking]

The bold is simply not true. I mean...I'm fine with someone saying peak Lebron was better, and I might agree, but this whole "undoubtedly" notion is total bullshit.

Peak/Prime Bird was a ****ing artist on the basketball court.

He isn't a way better basketball player or anything, but it is clear. Bron was the best offensive player in the league, and the best defensive wing in the league at one point. Put up a fantastic finals and playoffs in a dominating fashion, more so than Bird ever did.

What am I missing? Why is Bird ranked higher than Bron?

[3ball]

Even with PEAK Bird on the '14 Heat, the Spurs would've embarrassed them.


horseshit... you don't know that.

[Paul George 24]

He isn't a way better basketball player or anything, but it is clear. Bron was the best offensive player in the league, and the best defensive wing in the league at one point. Put up a fantastic finals and playoffs in a dominating fashion, more so than Bird ever did.

What am I missing? Why is Bird ranked higher than Bron?

MORE RINGS THAN BRON,NUFF.SAID

[3ball]

Even with PEAK Bird on the '14 Heat, the Spurs would've embarrassed them.


horseshit... don't know that.

and considering that lebron and bird play night-and-day differently, a Bird-led Heat team would have played entirely differently than the Lebron-led Heat played... they would probably play a lot like the Spurs.

also, considering bird's teammates all loved playing with him and were super-comfortable alongside him, and considering how Bird's teammates didn't routinely underperform like Lebron's, your statement is pure poppycock... wild speculation with zero basis whatsoever.

from all indications, a bird-led team would be opposite to a lebron-led team in many ways.
.

[plowking]

MORE RINGS THAN BRON,NUFF.SAID

Dude, you type all kinds of stupid, so I know you're stupid away from the computer.

[aj1987]

horseshit... don't know that.

and considering that lebron and bird play night-and-day differently, a Bird-led Heat team would have played entirely differently than the Lebron-led Heat played... they would probably play a lot like the Spurs.

also, considering bird's teammates all loved playing with him and were super-comfortable alongside him, and considering how Bird's teammates didn't routinely underperform like Lebron's, your statement is pure poppycock... wild speculation with zero basis whatsoever.

from all indications, a bird-led team would be opposite to a lebron-led team in many ways.
.
:oldlol:

Seriously, kid? I'm done here.

[3ball]

Seriously


yeah seriously... a bird-led team would be completely different from a lebron-led team.

that much should be intuitive.

[Kvnzhangyay]

yeah seriously... a bird-led team would be completely different from a lebron-led team.

that much should be intuitive.

Yea but which team would be better is completely theoretical and up to debate, but I don't see how replacing Lebron with Bird in 2014 would give the Heat a championship. To be honest Lebron and Bird is a tossup, and its not going to make up for such a large average loss margin. Maybe if we're talking about Bird from 2010 onwards, the team may be completely different as different FA attractions, etc. so no point in talking about that either; too much of an ripple effect

[3ball]

I don't see how replacing Lebron with Bird in 2014 would give the Heat a championship.


people act like the Spurs had a talent advantage over the Heat.

they didn't.

they won due to strategy and team cohesion.

a bird-led team would have been better in both areas than a lebron-led team, simply because bird's scoring versatility allowed him to fit in with teammates better and adjust to opposition better.

and we know that bird's teammates loved him to death, and didn't underperform like lebron's always do.

these things indicate that a bird-led team would have been better - for one, we know the heat were WORSE with wade and lebron on the floor at the same time - NO WAY this happens with Bird.
.

[colts19]

people act like the Spurs had a talent advantage over the Heat.

they didn't.

they won due to strategy and team cohesion.

a bird-led team would have been better in both areas than a lebron-led team, simply because bird's scoring versatility allowed him to fit in with teammates better and adjust to opposition better.

and we know that bird's teammates loved him to death, and didn't underperform like lebron's always do.

these things indicate that a bird-led team would have been better - for one, we know the heat were WORSE with wade and lebron on the floor at the same time - NO WAY this happens with Bird.
.

You can talk all you want but 3ball hit it on the head. Bird just makes teams better.

[20Four]

Bron is better than Bird, end of story. Keep writing more essay's though, they are funny. :lol
What he wrote is an essay for you?? Da fvck???? I guess McDonald's doesn't require much eh? You are fvcking dumber than I thought.....just shine my shoes already.........

[sportjames23]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

What he wrote is an essay for you?? Da fvck???? I guess McDonald's doesn't require much eh? You are fvcking dumber than I thought.....just shine my shoes already.........

:lol

[Bigsmoke]

It's not about the numbers....and I never said Bosh should average the same. It's about the style of play.

I remember somewhere that Bosh averaged 25ppg without wade in that 2011-2012 season. Bosh played that style because the Heat were at their best that way. Take LeBron or Wade out the equation= you'll get Toronto Raptors Chris Bosh.

[Papaya Petee]

people act like the Spurs had a talent advantage over the Heat.

they didn't.

they won due to strategy and team cohesion.

a bird-led team would have been better in both areas than a lebron-led team, simply because bird's scoring versatility allowed him to fit in with teammates better and adjust to opposition better.

and we know that bird's teammates loved him to death, and didn't underperform like lebron's always do.

these things indicate that a bird-led team would have been better - for one, we know the heat were WORSE with wade and lebron on the floor at the same time - NO WAY this happens with Bird.
.


You are an idiot. That is all.

He really tried saying if you switched Bird with LeBron they would of beaten the Spurs last year :roll: :roll:

[kshutts1]

Pippen was so alpha that he chose to sit, rather than pass the last shot.
Lebron is so beta he wants Kyrie to take the last shot.

On a more serious note in an otherwise troll-thread, the phrase "basketball blasphemy", and the thinking it entails, is a huge problem with what's wrong with historical basketball talk today.

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron isn't better than Bird yet.

[aj1987]

DEFINTELY WRONG, DUNCAN NEVER DEFENCE ANY1 1 ON 1,WITHOUT KAWHI/BOWEN/ROBINSON/ETC DOUBLE, DUNCAN WILL NOT ABLE TO STOP ANYONE :hammerhead: DUNCAN IS ALWAYS A POOR MAN DEFENDER :rockon:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Agreed.

[RRR3]

Lebron isn't better than Bird yet.
:roll:


Bird has zero case over LeBron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Its all about who you respect more. Definitely its bird. Bran is not even respected as dirk

It's ironic you're so obsessed with respect considering the franchise you root for

[tmacattack33]

29 yr old Pippen put up 21/8/5 a game on 48% shooting and led the league in steals, at his peak defensively...and he played on a shit team that year.

29 yr old Bird averaged 26/10/7/2 on 50/42/90 shooting, leading his team to a 3rd ring while his production skyrocketed in the POs....

Bran's decline is going to hit him hard. Dude might not be top 20 when it's all said & done.

Please tell me more about this "decline" that you thought Lebron was going to go through. :roll: :roll:

[aj1987]

Pride in the form of leadership actually does and can make teammates perform better. The heat looked dead and unmotivated in the finals last year.. there was no commradery, not even a single rally. Its as if lebron wasnt even speaking in huddles and daydreaming about going back to cleveland.

Bird played in the boston Garden where it routinely got hotter in their building than what the temperature was in game 1 of last year in San Antonio. Guys dying on the court.. Bird could withstand some adversity, and tougher conditions.. he wouldnt be collapsing on the court in the 4th quarter because the air conditioning levels didnt quite meet his usual standards.

Last years finals was such a sham.. all teamwork, motivation, and leadership were gone and lebron went down quiet with the sinking ship imo.
:facepalm :facepalm


You have to be kidding right.. ? prime larry bird, Chris bosh, and dwayne wade losing to the at the time struggling, derrick rose led chicago bulls.

:facepalm :facepalm

Bird guarding Rose the way LeBron did... :oldlol:

[Paul George 24]

PIPPEN Is A ROLE PLAYER :lol

[tpols]

Larry Bird won multiple rings with a handful of guys who were borderline top 25 players in the league ~ dennis johnson, cedric maxwell, robert parish, etc .. and one guy who might have been borderline top 10 player in kevin mchale. Lebron otoh needed Dwayne Wade when he was a bonafide top 3 player in the game, and then a handful of top 25ish guys in bosh, love and Kyrie. Bird also competed in a tougher conference.

So as far as olympic style ring counting goes, Bird and LeBron are tied neck and neck with 3 Gold rings a piece, but due to above circumstances ^^^ i have to give larry legend the edge for now.




:facepalm :facepalm


:facepalm :facepalm

Bird guarding Rose the way LeBron did... :oldlol:


uh, that wouldnt matter much .. a team with dwayne wade, larry bird, and chris bosh would destroy derrick rose and his band of hustle scrubs regardless.. that shit's a joke lol. it's hilarious watching you guys prop that team after what we know about the players in hindsight.

[TheWinningFam]

Larry Bird won multiple rings with a handful of guys who were borderline top 25 players in the league ~ dennis johnson, cedric maxwell, robert parish, etc .. and one guy who might have been borderline top 10 player in kevin mchale. Lebron otoh needed Dwayne Wade when he was a bonafide top 3 player in the game, and then a handful of top 25ish guys in bosh, love and Kyrie. Bird also competed in a tougher conference.

So as far as olympic style ring counting goes, Bird and LeBron are tied neck and neck with 3 Gold rings a piece, but due to above circumstances ^^^ i have to give larry legend the edge for now.






uh, that wouldnt matter much .. a team with dwayne wade, larry bird, and chris bosh would destroy derrick rose and his band of hustle scrubs regardless.. that shit's a joke lol. it's hilarious watching you guys prop that team after what we know about the players in hindsight.

Comon breh, larry bird was slow as hell and nowhere near as good, (dont even get me talking bout defense) larry bird had a better jumpshot thats it lol. lebron passed bird after he won his first ring :lol

[Sarcastic]

:roll:


Bird has zero case over LeBron.


Bird certainly does. If you have Lebron over Bird, that is fine, but to say Bird has zero case is retarded.

[LostCause]

Bird certainly does. If you have Lebron over Bird, that is fine, but to say Bird has zero case is retarded.

True

Bird definitely does have a case against anyone in history, the guy was that good.

Pippen I'd give the advantage defensively but that's about it, Lebron is better everywhere else

Bron is better than both overall, but Bird is a lot closer than some here are giving him credit for

[Hoopz2332]

Larry Bird won multiple rings with a handful of guys who were borderline top 25 players in the league ~ dennis johnson, cedric maxwell, robert parish, etc .. and one guy who might have been borderline top 10 player in kevin mchale. Lebron otoh needed Dwayne Wade when he was a bonafide top 3 player in the game, and then a handful of top 25ish guys in bosh, love and Kyrie. Bird also competed in a tougher conference.

So as far as olympic style ring counting goes, Bird and LeBron are tied neck and neck with 3 Gold rings a piece, but due to above circumstances ^^^ i have to give larry legend the edge for now.




lebron has surpassed Bird

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/bird_vs_james2.jpg




trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better eff, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7




....lets not even get started on defense:oldlol:

[tpols]

^ you want to go pure stats, when its obvious that Bird's off ball, facilitating style puts a much better lid on what his teammates were capable of as compared to LeBron's ball dominating, one off passing, assist accumulating style.. which is why Larry won the same amount with weaker overall casts talent wise, and against tougher competition. Bird was simply better at making others around him better, bridging the gap for any differences in stat lines.

[Hoopz2332]

^ you want to go pure stats, when its obvious that Bird's off ball, facilitating style puts a much better lid on what his teammates were capable of as compared to LeBron's ball dominating, one off passing, assist accumulating style.. which is why Larry won the same amount with weaker overall casts talent wise, and against tougher competition. Bird was simply better at making others around him better, bridging the gap for any differences in stat lines.

:kobe:

lebron's advanced stats all across the board blow bird out the water. lets talk about defense.

lebron was runner up for 2 defensive player of year awards and 2 other top 5 selections for that award togo go along with 6 All defensive teams. 5 times on the first team.

[Hey Yo]

Larry Bird won multiple rings with a handful of guys who were borderline top 25 players in the league ~ dennis johnson, cedric maxwell, robert parish, etc .. and one guy who might have been borderline top 10 player in kevin mchale. Lebron otoh needed Dwayne Wade when he was a bonafide top 3 player in the game, and then a handful of top 25ish guys in bosh, love and Kyrie. Bird also competed in a tougher conference.

So as far as olympic style ring counting goes, Bird and LeBron are tied neck and neck with 3 Gold rings a piece, but due to above circumstances ^^^ i have to give larry legend the edge for now.
McHale was rookie of the year and B2B 6th man of the year in 84-85. He was that good and Boston still couldn't break him into the starting line-up.

If I'm Bird...I'd rather have DJ, Ainge, Maxwell and Parrish as my starting teammates > 14th year Bibby, Wade , Bosh and Joel Anthony.

Then you have the 6th man of the year McHale >>>> any 6th man James ever had with the Cavs or Heat.

[aj1987]

uh, that wouldnt matter much .. a team with dwayne wade, larry bird, and chris bosh would destroy derrick rose and his band of hustle scrubs regardless.. that shit's a joke lol. it's hilarious watching you guys prop that team after what we know about the players in hindsight.
You didn't watch that series, did you?




^ you want to go pure stats, when its obvious that Bird's off ball, facilitating style puts a much better lid on what his teammates were capable of as compared to LeBron's ball dominating, one off passing, assist accumulating style.. which is why Larry won the same amount with weaker overall casts talent wise, and against tougher competition. Bird was simply better at making others around him better, bridging the gap for any differences in stat lines.
:biggums: :biggums:

You're kidding, right? Johnson, Parish, McHale, Maxwell, Ainge, Tiny, etc..

Has LeBron had any teammate make the All-Def and All-NBA teams in the same season? Heck, if I'm not mistaken, LeBron has never even played with someone who made the All-Def team (while playing with LeBron). Bird has had multiple teammates do it in the SAME season.

[juju151111]

lebron has surpassed Bird

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/bird_vs_james2.jpg




trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better eff, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7




....lets not even get started on defense:oldlol:
Look at the Celtics pace not the League. It was pretty face through.