could you play in the 60s?

[swagga]

Real talk sons, describe how you'd fit in the league in its infancy stage.

I'm 6'3', with good handles and a decent midrange J. Seeing the cousy clips there is no doubt in my mind that i'd be starter material.

For the wilt stans: taking the D in the lockeroom doesn't count.

[SouBeachTalents]

Obviously, I'd be doing this on a nightly basis

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Wilt_Chamberlain_100-point.jpg

[CelticBaller]

I can dribble without looking at the ball

[ImKobe]

I'd be the GOAT.

[Myth]

Real talk sons, describe how you'd fit in the league in its infancy stage.

I'm 6'3', with good handles and a decent midrange J. Seeing the cousy clips there is no doubt in my mind that i'd be starter material.

For the wilt stans: taking the D in the lockeroom doesn't count.

You are a fool.

Anyway, when I was roughly 19-20, I played against a former NBA "scrub" who was already over 60 years old, so likely played in that era. The guy was just as good as me even though he was old as dirt and I was a collegiate sprinter at the time with a decent amount of basketball experience. It really taught me how good NBA players, even from his era, must be.

[Myth]

I can dribble without looking at the ball

:applause:

[SugarHill]

I can dribble without looking at the ball
:oldlol:

[andremiller07]

I can dribble without looking at the ball
lmao

[Deuce Bigalow]

Can I get that Bob Cousy ankle breaker gif please

[CavaliersFTW]

1. Cousy played mostly in the 50's. And none of you can even play close to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8IXS49q1DE

2. As trolls I can see it now. Walk on the court with clownish overconfidence. First sight of how big those guys are up close, you realize you made a big ****ing mistake and piss your pants a little. First rebound you try to get or shot you try to take inside you've got to contend with the competitive drive and physicality of men like this who are pissed off that you had the audacity to believe you could play with the best players on the planet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKL7y7n5_Rc

R.I.P.

[Poetry]

Can I get that Bob Cousy ankle breaker gif please


http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1805975/piercelol.gif

[CavaliersFTW]

I can dribble without looking at the ball
That's cute.

Can you do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTsggmiEkU

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P0c_oNOSUtM/UQy_9vq_bFI/AAAAAAAAEKQ/arL5pUBoKDA/s800/weak%2520era.gif

[fos]

I did play in the '60s.

[CelticBaller]

1. Cousy played mostly in the 50's. And none of you can even play close to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8IXS49q1DE

My little cousins and his YMCA league play better than this :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

My little cousins and his YMCA league play better than this :roll:
Show us the footage :cheers:

[swagga]

You are a fool.

Anyway, when I was roughly 19-20, I played against a former NBA "scrub" who was already over 60 years old, so likely played in that era. The guy was just as good as me even though he was old as dirt and I was a collegiate sprinter at the time with a decent amount of basketball experience. It really taught me how good NBA players, even from his era, must be.

son this thread is for the real conesseurs of basketaball, keep your rationality out of it. :lol

[andremiller07]

That's cute.

Can you do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTsggmiEkU

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P0c_oNOSUtM/UQy_9vq_bFI/AAAAAAAAEKQ/arL5pUBoKDA/s800/weak%2520era.gif
Punching a guy in the face who is not expecting it makes you tough?:facepalm You can see coward ass kids doing that to grown men in the street now days. Nothing tough about sucker punches.

[navy]

That's cute.

Can you do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTsggmiEkU

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P0c_oNOSUtM/UQy_9vq_bFI/AAAAAAAAEKQ/arL5pUBoKDA/s800/weak%2520era.gif
Did you make this for this forum?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Could I? Of course. Being able to dribble with my left hand automatically gives me an advantage over 95 percent of the players.

Would I? Nope. Not enough money/allure in pro ball back then. I would probably be a doctor/engineer.

[swagga]

That's cute.

Can you do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTsggmiEkU

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P0c_oNOSUtM/UQy_9vq_bFI/AAAAAAAAEKQ/arL5pUBoKDA/s800/weak%2520era.gif

jokes aside army training make you a much better puncher then these dudes. Haymakers don't win shit. But I understand you have to resort to such insignificant details when the talent gap is so large that even YMCA regulars today are much more skilled than your average guard from the 60s.

[CavaliersFTW]

Punching a guy in the face who is not expecting it makes you tough?:facepalm You can see coward ass kids doing that to grown men in the street now days. Nothing tough about sucker punches.
Difference is they aren't 6 foot 8 inch 240lb professional athletes with dinner plate size hands.

Most of you can't even shoot like old man West: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buYB75cMehY

But sure, you out of shape nerds at home could "play" in the 60s NBA... a time period where small players handling the ball was completely overshadowed by dominating freak athlete bigs that ran the floor and played defense with pride and physicality :oldlol:

[RoseCity07]

I think if I had the dedication of Pistol Pete I'd make it. But I'd have to have the skill sets of the modern game to use in that era.

I'm actually not sure the more I think about it. NBA players are so fast. There's a reason short players don't last long. Berea is the shortest player that I've seen have a decent career.

[andremiller07]

Difference is they aren't 6 foot 8 inch 240lb professional athletes with dinner plate size hands.

Most of you can't even shoot like old man West: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buYB75cMehY

But sure, you out of shape nerds at home could "play" in the 60s NBA... a time period where small players handling the ball was completely overshadowed by dominating freak athlete bigs that ran the floor and played defense with pride and physicality :oldlol:
:facepalm

There's plenty of heavyweight's that are 6'6 250 pounds in the history of combat sports that lack punching power and actually know how to throw a punch. Your logic is flawed, I don't get how cheap shoting someone makes it a tough era? It's not hard for a scrawny kid to come up to someone punch them in the face and daze them.

[swagga]

Difference is they aren't 6 foot 8 inch 240lb professional athletes with dinner plate size hands.

Most of you can't even shoot like old man West: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buYB75cMehY

But sure, you out of shape nerds at home could "play" in the 60s NBA... a time period where small players handling the ball was completely overshadowed by dominating freak athlete bigs that ran the floor and played defense with pride and physicality :oldlol:

damn I better pump more iron to stay in the league of ALL STAR & SUPERSTAR supremely athletically gifted beasts like cousy.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0903/this.day.sports.history.march17/images/bob-cousy.jpg

Imagine fighting for position or through a screen set by that cousy dude, or just boxing him out. His shoulders rival those of lebron's :eek: Dat definition :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

damn I better pump more iron to stay in the league of ALL STAR & SUPERSTAR supremely athletically gifted beasts like cousy.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0903/this.day.sports.history.march17/images/bob-cousy.jpg

Imagine fighting for position or through a screen set by that cousy dude, or just boxing him out. His shoulders rival those of lebron's :eek: Dat definition :lol
The houdini of the hardwood :bowdown:

[3ball]

Really brah?

http://i.imgur.com/qNagD2T.jpg



http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Luke+Ridnour+Los+Angeles+Lakers+v+Minnesota+GrPC2S qus0Jl.jpg

[stanlove1111]

That's cute.

Can you do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTsggmiEkU

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P0c_oNOSUtM/UQy_9vq_bFI/AAAAAAAAEKQ/arL5pUBoKDA/s800/weak%2520era.gif


When ever you want to show that it was not soft era compared to today you show a video of a fight..why don't you show some rough play, how about battling for a rebound..you don't because they were basically not allowed to touch each other back then, while today it's a rough game,

[3ball]

two-time MVP baby

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Steve-Nash-is-the-Best-Player-in-the-NBA-2.jpg

[3ball]

.

Elgin Baylor Top Ten (from the 1% of footage we have of him)



http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2894eb83d0d85ce7d2b346fafb7302fe.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a37bb1bb35d856c228b81a37714aa4ff.gif... Standard Paint-Camping (Wilt Waiting)


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8cbc9ed6f9326539735030269a26f653.gif... Poster AND1 Over Bill Russell


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5a9291cd6f8fbc45c768b84894268a16.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/788eee3f33eaf8a4ffede903ccf529f1.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7470430a7f4d517b6b869bff51444752.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b790f3aea0dc2a655f517ff7d2477be1.gif...Another poster over Russell


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/25b3be360ab18956d0e87818dd283134.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f7a70a0117dc65528c179129c032014c.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7f599bc9f590bcb726a21b83083d94f5.gif


we see lebron routinely get contained for 15 point and 22 point impactless nights against boris diaw, fossil pierce, and unathletic teams like the Spurs and Mavs.

the notion that he could get 61 points in the Finals against the goat confidence and swag of Bill Russell's 4-time, defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back champions, is ridiculous.

lebron would crap his paints, let alone get 61 shooting the shots he hates the most - mid-range and all contested, low-percentage two-pointers - no waiting for the easy stuff like he tries to do today.

therefore, elgin > lebron.

[fpliii]

two-time MVP baby

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Steve-Nash-is-the-Best-Player-in-the-NBA-2.jpg
I like Nash, but IMO Dirk should've won in 06. Doesn't change your point though, Dirk is both white and not super athletic.

[3ball]

I like Nash, but IMO Dirk should've won in 06. Doesn't change your point though, Dirk is both white and not super athletic.
indeed, there is always a useful and revealing comparison from previous eras for each player.

guys like fossil kobe and no-3-point-shooting wade lead the league in scoring using jordan's moves and being lesser versions, so a prime jordan could average 40+ today.

dirk crushes it... so bird would too (and crush it more with his quicker release and better handle and playmaking).

gordan hayward does pretty well in today's game... so Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034) would have a field day with today's spacing..

nash was two-time mvp, so cousy would have been pretty good too.

and on down the line.

[CelticBaller]

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Luke+Ridnour+Los+Angeles+Lakers+v+Minnesota+GrPC2S qus0Jl.jpg
all these dudes look more athletic and can dribble with both hands

so your point is?

[stanlove1111]

The most glaring weakness of the 60s players when compared to today's players is ball handling. A lot of great players for thier day players of the 60s couldn't dribble better then most 8 grade player today. Have you even seen dave debusshere dribble..it's funny after watching today's players.

My son was a really good high school player especially on the defensive end and he saw a little of the 7th game of the 1970 finals with west dribbling with his right hand right in front of frazier and my son laughed and said that's mine.

They practice on ripping the ball every day from 8 th grade on nowadays when any ball handler makes any mistake...players from the 60 s could not handle that speed and pressure, getting the ball past half court would be a nightmare if they played against today's players.

[3ball]

so your point is?


we see lebron routinely get contained for 15 point and 22 point impactless nights against boris diaw, fossil pierce, and unathletic teams like the Spurs and Mavs.

the notion that he could get 61 points in the Finals against the goat confidence and swag of Bill Russell's 4-time, defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back champions, is ridiculous.

lebron would crap his paints, let alone get 61 shooting the shots he hates the most - mid-range and all contested, low-percentage two-pointers - no waiting for the easy stuff like he tries to do today.

therefore, elgin > lebron

indeed, there is always a useful and revealing comparison from previous eras for each player.

guys like fossil kobe and no-3-point-shooting wade lead the league in scoring using jordan's moves and being lesser versions, so a prime jordan could average 40+ today.

dirk crushes it... so bird would too (and crush it more with his quicker release and better handle and playmaking).

gordan hayward does pretty well in today's game... so Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034) would have a field day with today's spacing..

nash was two-time mvp, so cousy would have been pretty good too.

and on down the line.

[HomieWeMajor]

I'd be so good I'd have CavFTW posting my measurements

[deja vu]

I could take a spot in the bench on one of the NBA teams in the 60s. Then smoke in the lockers at halftime and go to my office job during the day.

[Bless Mathews]

In my peak I could play.

Real type. 6'2" 200. Handles. Point guard. Decent j. Good defense. Would yoke on cousys face.

[Asukal]

I could probably steal 15000 of Wilt's hoes. :pimp:

[Kvnzhangyay]

we see lebron routinely get contained for 15 point and 22 point impactless nights against boris diaw, fossil pierce, and unathletic teams like the Spurs and Mavs.

the notion that he could get 61 points in the Finals against the goat confidence and swag of Bill Russell's 4-time, defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back champions, is ridiculous.

lebron would crap his paints, let alone get 61 shooting the shots he hates the most - mid-range and all contested, low-percentage two-pointers - no waiting for the easy stuff like he tries to do today.

therefore, elgin > lebron

indeed, there is always a useful and revealing comparison from previous eras for each player.

guys like fossil kobe and no-3-point-shooting wade lead the league in scoring using jordan's moves and being lesser versions, so a prime jordan could average 40+ today.

dirk crushes it... so bird would too (and crush it more with his quicker release and better handle and playmaking).

gordan hayward does pretty well in today's game... so Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034) would have a field day with today's spacing..

nash was two-time mvp, so cousy would have been pretty good too.

and on down the line.

its not like you watched any of the older players play so...

[3ball]

its not like you watched any of the older players play so...



i've watched the older guys play.

and i've watched lebron too, and know that he would crap his paints before scoring 61 in the Finals against the confidence and swag of Bill Russell's back-to-back-to-back-to-back defending champion Celtics.....

....while shooting all two-pointers and mid-range, when his mid-range is flat broke, and he can't get half that on boris diaw, 1/4 of that against old man Pierce, or average even 1/3 of that against the unathletic Mavs in the 2011 Finals... and this was while enjoying all the advantages of being able to shoot 3-pointers.


http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

[Kvnzhangyay]

i've watched the older guys play.

and i've watched lebron too, and know that he would crap his paints before scoring 61 in the Finals against the confidence and swag of Bill Russell's back-to-back-to-back-to-back defending champion Celtics.....

....while shooting all two-pointers and mid-range, when his mid-range is flat broke, and he can't get half that on boris diaw, 1/4 of that against old man Pierce, or average even 1/3 of that against the unathletic Mavs in the 2011 Finals... and this was while enjoying all the advantages of being able to shoot 3-pointers.

no you didn't. tell me more about how your at least 50-60 years old and you still go on ISH :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

no you didn't. tell me more about how your at least 50-60 years old and you still go on ISH
the guys i talked about in my post, i HAVE seen - bird, nash, kobe, wade....

the only guy i never saw at the time he was playing, was elgin.

but you didn't see jordan, yet you knew he was the GOAT from hearing all the greats and coaches talk about him, and seeing his highlights and accolades.

i can do the same with guys like elgin.

[Kvnzhangyay]

the guys i talked about in my post, i HAVE seen - bird, nash, kobe, wade....

the only guy i never saw at the time he was playing, was elgin.

but you didn't see jordan, yet you knew he was the GOAT from hearing all the greats and coaches talk about him, and seeing his highlights and accolades.

i can do the same with guys like elgin.

Nah I've watched Jordan and injury ridden Bird.

[3ball]

we see lebron routinely get contained for 15 point and 22 point impactless nights against boris diaw, fossil pierce, and unathletic teams like the Spurs and Mavs.

the notion that he could get 61 points in the Finals against the goat confidence and swag of Bill Russell's 4-time, defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back champions, is ridiculous.

lebron would crap his paints, let alone get 61 shooting the shots he hates and sucks at the most - mid-range and all contested, low-percentage two-pointers - no waiting for the easy stuff like he tries to do today.

therefore, elgin > lebron

indeed, there is always a useful and revealing comparison from previous eras for each player.

for example, guys like fossil kobe and no-3-point-shooting wade lead the league in scoring using jordan's moves and being lesser versions, so a prime jordan could average 40+ today.

dirk crushes it... so bird would too (and crush it more with his quicker release and better handle and playmaking).

gordan hayward does pretty well in today's game... so Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034) would have a field day with today's spacing..

nash was two-time mvp, so cousy would have been pretty good too.

and on down the line.





Nah I've watched Jordan and injury ridden Bird.


Okay, in that case, not sure why you would have a problem with the post above to begin with then.
.

[swagga]

i've watched the older guys play.

and i've watched lebron too, and know that he would crap his paints before scoring 61 in the Finals against the confidence and swag of Bill Russell's back-to-back-to-back-to-back defending champion Celtics.....

....while shooting all two-pointers and mid-range, when his mid-range is flat broke, and he can't get half that on boris diaw, 1/4 of that against old man Pierce, or average even 1/3 of that against the unathletic Mavs in the 2011 Finals... and this was while enjoying all the advantages of being able to shoot 3-pointers.


http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

lemme put it this way, do you think you coulda dunked on some tractor salesmen and school librarians that played after a hard day of work?

[CelticBaller]

The most glaring weakness of the 60s players when compared to today's players is ball handling. A lot of great players for thier day players of the 60s couldn't dribble better then most 8 grade player today. Have you even seen dave debusshere dribble..it's funny after watching today's players.

My son was a really good high school player especially on the defensive end and he saw a little of the 7th game of the 1970 finals with west dribbling with his right hand right in front of frazier and my son laughed and said that's mine.

They practice on ripping the ball every day from 8 th grade on nowadays when any ball handler makes any mistake...players from the 60 s could not handle that speed and pressure, getting the ball past half court would be a nightmare if they played against today's players.
Seriously, it's like half of these posters never played organized ball

Let me tell you something, those layups and dribbles moves are basic, those are the things coaches teach you early the youth programs for ball. Not only these guys look skinny and slow, they dribble like they just learned to play ball the other day.

[stalkerforlife]

I can dribble without looking at the ball

:roll:

[Marchesk]

Let me tell you something, those layups and dribbles moves are basic, those are the things coaches teach you early the youth programs for ball. Not only these guys look skinny and slow, they dribble like they just learned to play ball the other day.

You weren't allowed to palm or carry the ball back then. You had to dribble on top of the ball. That makes a difference.

Anyway, Clyde Drexler had to look down when dribbling. Doesn't change the fact that he's a top 30-50 all-time and would still be great in today's league.

[Marchesk]

http://www.jpnn.com/picture/normal/20141024_171742/171742_429712_Steve_nash.jpg

Can someone explain how this dude won 2 MVPs in the modern era of super PED athletic freaks?

Bigger, stronger, faster anyone?

[FKAri]

Could I? Of course. Being able to dribble with my left hand automatically gives me an advantage over 95 percent of the players.

Would I? Nope. Not enough money/allure in pro ball back then. I would probably be a doctor/engineer.

This. I'd be too busy developing the microprocessor and making billions off the back of that to spend time putting a ball through a hoop.

Next question, OP?

[T_L_P]

Yes.

Cousy's footage isn't all that impressive. And he was considered the best guard in the league.

So I'd say almost everyone on here who isn't really out of shape could...at least as bench scrubs.

[3ball]

lemme put it this way, do you think you coulda dunked on some tractor salesmen and school librarians that played after a hard day of work?


i do that currently.. dunk on bums all the time.

but based on almost 20 years of evaluating and playing against top talent, i can effectively analyze the little footage we DO have of these guys - and it is clear to me that i'm just as far away from elgin and oscar, as i am from jordan and kobe.

here's the truth, and it's something i've never mentioned on any forum, because i feared people won't understand - everyone back then, including elgin and oscar, didn't dribble in the optimal, efficient way like guys do now - mainly, elgin takes an extra dribble when changing direction and right before he goes up for a layup attempt - he's a step behind on his footwork at all times....

what's the significance of this?... taking an extra dribble the way elgin does robs you of your hops and explosion when you go up with the ball - so while elgin was doing all the things he did on the court, his explosion and takeoff ability was actually being held back by his suboptimal dribbling style - AND THIS WAS THE CASE FOR ALL PLAYERS BACK THEN - almost no one dribbled optimally except a few select guys, like tiny archibald for example...

.... but if elgin was playing today, he would dribble like everyone else, and would be more explosive than he already was... this is the case for ALL guards and wings back then... this is the main reason why point guards dunk more now than before - their improved handle makes them more dunk-capable in many spots.

nonetheless, the 1% of footage that we have of elgin demonstrates that he frequently displayed elite athletic ability DESPITE being held back by suboptimal dribbling footwork...

AND1 dunk on Bill Russell...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8cbc9ed6f9326539735030269a26f653.gif


And hangtime like Michael's - which guys in the league today make shots like this??... i've never even seen a guy like Westbrook make this shot (only jordan tbh.. :confusedshrug:).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2894eb83d0d85ce7d2b346fafb7302fe.gif


honestly, when i watch elgin play, i get goosebumps because even though his dribbling was suboptimal in spots, he was similar to greats like Magic and Durant in that his style is like nothing i've ever seen and it's a treat to watch a guy that plays like that... and i can only imagine how he would play today using optimal dribbling footwork.... there is no guard in today's league that compares to Elgin's strength, power, and finesse.

[jongib369]

i do that currently.. dunk on bums all the time.

but based on almost 20 years of evaluating and playing against top talent, i can effectively analyze the little footage we DO have of these guys - and it is clear to me that i'm just as far away from elgin and oscar, as i am from jordan and kobe.

here's the truth, and it's something i've never mentioned on any forum, because i feared people won't understand - everyone back then, including elgin and oscar, didn't dribble in the optimal, efficient way like guys do now - mainly, elgin takes an extra dribble when changing direction and right before he goes up for a layup attempt - he's a step behind on his footwork at all times....

what's the significance of this?... taking an extra dribble the way elgin does robs you of your hops and explosion when you go up with the ball - so while elgin was doing all the things he did on the court, his explosion and takeoff ability was actually being held back by his suboptimal dribbling style - AND THIS WAS THE CASE FOR ALL PLAYERS BACK THEN - almost no one dribbled optimally except a few select guys, like tiny archibald for example...

.... but if elgin was playing today, he would dribble like everyone else, and would be more explosive than he already was... this is the case for ALL guards and wings back then... this is the main reason why point guards dunk more now than before - their improved handle makes them more dunk-capable in many spots.

nonetheless, the 1% of footage that we have of elgin demonstrates that he frequently displayed elite athletic ability DESPITE being held back by suboptimal dribbling footwork...

AND1 dunk on Bill Russell...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8cbc9ed6f9326539735030269a26f653.gif


And hangtime like Michael's - which guys in the league today make shots like this??... i've never even seen a guy like Westbrook make this shot (only jordan tbh.. :confusedshrug:).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2894eb83d0d85ce7d2b346fafb7302fe.gif


honestly, when i watch elgin play, i get goosebumps because even though his dribbling was suboptimal in spots, he was similar to greats like Magic and Durant in that his style is like nothing i've ever seen and it's a treat to watch a guy that plays like that... and i can only imagine how he would play today using optimal dribbling footwork.... there is no guard in today's league that compares to Elgin's strength, power, and finesse.
What's your top 10 if you have one? And GOAT fantasy team

[Psileas]

i do that currently.. dunk on bums all the time.

but based on almost 20 years of evaluating and playing against top talent, i can effectively analyze the little footage we DO have of these guys - and it is clear to me that i'm just as far away from elgin and oscar, as i am from jordan and kobe.

here's the truth, and it's something i've never mentioned on any forum, because i feared people won't understand - everyone back then, including elgin and oscar, didn't dribble in the optimal, efficient way like guys do now - mainly, elgin takes an extra dribble when changing direction and right before he goes up for a layup attempt - he's a step behind on his footwork at all times....

what's the significance of this?... taking an extra dribble the way elgin does robs you of your hops and explosion when you go up with the ball - so while elgin was doing all the things he did on the court, his explosion and takeoff ability was actually being held back by his suboptimal dribbling style - AND THIS WAS THE CASE FOR ALL PLAYERS BACK THEN - almost no one dribbled optimally except a few select guys, like tiny archibald for example...

.... but if elgin was playing today, he would dribble like everyone else, and would be more explosive than he already was... this is the case for ALL guards and wings back then... this is the main reason why point guards dunk more now than before - their improved handle makes them more dunk-capable in many spots.

nonetheless, the 1% of footage that we have of elgin demonstrates that he frequently displayed elite athletic ability DESPITE being held back by suboptimal dribbling footwork...

AND1 dunk on Bill Russell...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8cbc9ed6f9326539735030269a26f653.gif


And hangtime like Michael's - which guys in the league today make shots like this??... i've never even seen a guy like Westbrook make this shot (only jordan tbh.. :confusedshrug:).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2894eb83d0d85ce7d2b346fafb7302fe.gif


honestly, when i watch elgin play, i get goosebumps because even though his dribbling was suboptimal in spots, he was similar to greats like Magic and Durant in that his style is like nothing i've ever seen and it's a treat to watch a guy that plays like that... and i can only imagine how he would play today using optimal dribbling footwork.... there is no guard in today's league that compares to Elgin's strength, power, and finesse.

Spot on on Elgin. Also, remember that most of his footage (and most of his career, honestly) comes after the period when he injures his leg and athletically he's never the same (nowadays, he might still become some 95% of what he was, but back then he couldn't hope for more than 80%).

But the good thing is that Baylor wasn't just a leaper. There were more leaping guys around in the 60's, but nobody had the strength to control the ball in the air that comfortably - which is the main ingredient of the illusion of "hangtime". Some claim all the time that the things he did are now considered "basic", and yet I'm not seeing moves similar to his being shown in highlight clips or outside highlight clips. It's not that they are basic, it's that few have the ability to perform them and the few ones who do, just prefer to follow the trend of posterizing.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2894eb83d0d85ce7d2b346fafb7302fe.gif





It's not that they are basic, it's that few have the ability to perform them and the few ones who do, just prefer to follow the trend of posterizing.



if there was someone that could do the Elgin move above, they would not be able to dunk it... i'm not sure where you get the idea that someone who takes that shot could somehow dunk it instead.

Also, as it turns out, I haven't seen anyone do the shot above, which is a backwards-type shot off the wrong leg (elgin's right leg)... Jordan did it off a vertical, or off his left leg (below), but i can't find him doing it off the wrong leg anywhere - doing the shot off the left leg (below) is standard footwork for a right-hander and easier to get explosion than Elgin doing it off the wrong leg (above).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4d6872ee570241c6ffa5c118d822224d.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/eda695051d3fb621eeb1e8804abae1a8.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e622990eed303624f32fd6d3727ae07.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2aec398518dd6d591dd1beedb32b6b7e.gif


The actual shots are still impressive, but the footwork is standard - I have never seen Jordan do this shot off his right leg (the wrong leg for right-handers), and I haven't seen anyone else do it either off the wrong leg, but elgin makes it look normal.
.

[iznogood]

if there was someone that could do the Elgin move above, they would not be able to dunk it... i'm not sure where you get the idea that someone who takes that shot could somehow dunk it instead.

Also, as it turns out, I haven't seen anyone do the shot above, which is a backwards-type shot off the wrong leg (elgin's right leg)... Jordan did it off a vertical, or off his left leg (below), but i can't find him doing it off the wrong leg anywhere - doing the shot off the left leg (below) is standard footwork for a right-hander and easier to get explosion than Elgin doing it off the wrong leg (above).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4d6872ee570241c6ffa5c118d822224d.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/eda695051d3fb621eeb1e8804abae1a8.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e622990eed303624f32fd6d3727ae07.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2aec398518dd6d591dd1beedb32b6b7e.gif


The actual shots are still impressive, but the footwork is standard - I have never seen Jordan do this shot off his right leg (the wrong leg for right-handers), and I haven't seen anyone else do it either off the wrong leg, but elgin makes it look normal.
.
Westbrook does the right foot - right hand lay up on the left side all the time. He'd often get criticised by the commentators for going of the "wrong" leg. Even Coach Nick from bballbreakdown mentions this as he breaks down some of the Westbrook's games.

And I don't even think Westbrook is the only one, I see it from time to time. The reason we don't see much of that move today is people are much better at driving at finishing with their left hand, with gives you better balance and ball protection. Finishing with your inside hand of the wrong leg is not the best way to finish if the inside defence is good. Either you'll get the ball swiped or your shot blocked or there's contact with the defender's body and you can't finish with your inside hand.

As for finishing the way Elgin does on the rest of the clips (right hand - left leg lay up on the left side of the basket), players do it often. Just yesterday Ben Maclemore did it, I've just seen it on the highlights.

As for the dribbling "optimally" as you called it, their dribbling was optimal for the era they played in. Had they gathered the ball the way players today do sometimes, they would get called for travelling.

[swagga]

if there was someone that could do the Elgin move above, they would not be able to dunk it... i'm not sure where you get the idea that someone who takes that shot could somehow dunk it instead.

Also, as it turns out, I haven't seen anyone do the shot above, which is a backwards-type shot off the wrong leg (elgin's right leg)... Jordan did it off a vertical, or off his left leg (below), but i can't find him doing it off the wrong leg anywhere - doing the shot off the left leg (below) is standard footwork for a right-hander and easier to get explosion than Elgin doing it off the wrong leg (above).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4d6872ee570241c6ffa5c118d822224d.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/eda695051d3fb621eeb1e8804abae1a8.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e622990eed303624f32fd6d3727ae07.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2aec398518dd6d591dd1beedb32b6b7e.gif


The actual shots are still impressive, but the footwork is standard - I have never seen Jordan do this shot off his right leg (the wrong leg for right-handers), and I haven't seen anyone else do it either off the wrong leg, but elgin makes it look normal.
.

how much does jordan drop in the 60s? lebron? kobe?

[3ball]

it's an interesting point made by iznogood... he said that the rules disallowed optimal dribbling - they didn't let players gather the ball.

so this severely hurt their explosiveness - the dribbling rules is THE primary reason for point guards dunking less back then.

[3ball]

As for the dribbling "optimally" as you called it, their dribbling was optimal for the era they played in. Had they gathered the ball the way players today do sometimes, they would get called for travelling.


this is VERY true... you got me here...

it sort of nullifies my points regarding optimal dribbling - they didn't let you gather the ball back then, so you COULDN'T dribble optimally.

but if you are on board with this, then you should also know that this is a major reason why we didn't see as much explosiveness back then - they were held back by rules disallowing today's optimal dribbling - and today's optimal dribbling facilitates and allows for more explosiveness.





Westbrook does the right foot - right hand lay up on the left side all the time.


this is true, you got me here again, but you can't show me a play where he hangs like elgin - the play is actually a great example of elgin's elite athleticism.

we assume that elgin didn't dunk as much, but this is probably a bad assumption since we only have 2% of his footage and we know that he was not allowed to dribble optimally, which hampered his explosiveness, just like everyone else back then.





The reason we don't see much of that move today is people are much better at driving at finishing with their left hand.


this is a VERY common misconception.. a lot of fans aren't aware of how easy it is to finish with one's left hand - junior highers can do it well and seamlessly... contrary to belief by a lot of fans that haven't played much, they think finishing with the left is some sort of special skill... it's NOTHING, and EVERY pro from any era could do it seamlessly - that's how easy it is.

if you had checked out the top 10 plays from Elgin earlier itt, you would have seen him do the exact same drive and finish with his left on Bill Russell for an AND1.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7470430a7f4d517b6b869bff51444752.gif


the only reason he finished the earlier hangtime shot with his RIGHT hand, is because he was being fancy, plain and simple - guys that have the ability, will go for shots like that, because it feels awesome, and it looks cool - it's a form of swag... we see guys today put a little extra mustard on the hot dog all the time.

[iznogood]

this is true, you got me here again, but you can't show me a play where he hangs like elgin - the play is actually a great example of elgin's elite athleticism.
Westbrook usually does this finish when he's trying to cover a larger distance after a gather. That means he's jumping in distance, not height, that's why I think the effect of "hanging" might not be as obvious. I also think a part of the effect of hanging in this animations is the fact that he's already falling down as he's releasing the ball (which does indeed require a great amount of strength and coordination). I believe it's got more to do with strength than it does with hops. By the way, I'm not trying to argue Baylor's athleticism in any way, I just wanted to clear up what I think is a misconception about the use of this particular move.



this is a VERY common misconception.. a lot of fans aren't aware of how easy it is to finish with one's left hand - junior highers can do it well and seamlessly... contrary to belief by a lot of fans that haven't played much, they think finishing with the left is some sort of special skill... it's NOTHING, and EVERY pro from any era could do it seamlessly - that's how easy it is.

if you had checked out the top 10 plays from Elgin earlier itt, you would have seen him do the exact same drive and finish with his left on Bill Russell for an AND1.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7470430a7f4d517b6b869bff51444752.gif
I think you are wrong here. Dribbling and finishing with one's weak hand was not nearly as stressed as it is today and players were nearly not as good at it as they are today. I believe the ability to finish with both hands was considered to be something extra back in the days, while it's considered a flaw today, when a player is not ambidextrous.



the only reason he finished the earlier hangtime shot with his RIGHT hand, is because he was being fancy, plain and simple - guys that have the ability, will go for shots like that, because it feels awesome, and it looks cool - it's a form of swag... we see guys today put a little extra mustard on the hot dog all the time.
Again, you are wrong. The player will always opt for an easier shot. This is why he shoots left handed to get by Russell - he'd get rejected, if he didn't protect the ball with his body.

The rules back then did not allow the help defense we see today (and taking charges wasn't considered as important as it is now), so there was more opportunities to finish with your inside hand. Even in the gifs you showed, there's nobody really cutting Jordan off - meaning he would force Jordan to pass the ball. Simply because they were not allowed to. Today a defender will try to come in and set his body, so as attacker you are taught to initiate the contact with their inside shoulder and shoot with your weak hand.

To finish my point, finishing with your weak hand is not always considered to be easier when it would normally look so. You have to take in the angle, the speed and the position of the defender. Also the reverse lay-up he does is not considered very difficult. It sure looks great, but it's an easy shot to make when the setting is right (which I believe it often is not). When you do it off the same leg, it's actually difficult, but again, we rare see this type of finishes, because it's something that's not considered "correct" and people restore to it when the defense cuts off the "correct" options.

[3ball]

does require a great amount of strength and I believe it's got more to do with strength than it does with hops. By the way, i'm not trying to argue elgin's athleticism in any way..


both hops and strength are needed to do that move - and doing it off the wrong leg requires even more hops and strength than otherwise.





Dribbling and finishing with one's weak hand was not nearly as stressed as it is today


you are 100% wrong here and showing some severe ignorance on this particular topic - do you really think they just started teaching guys to finish with their left hand recently?

they have been stressing finishing with your left hand to junior highers since the 50's.

do you know what the Mikan Drill is?... it's a drill where you work on your left hand, taught to every junior higher since it was originated by George Mikan.... in the 50's.

not that there's anything wrong with it, but you have revealed yourself to not be a basketball player, because if you were, you would know how easy finishing with your left is.

i'm not sure what else to say - i can't think of ONE PRO in the history of the game that didn't finish with their left seamlessly... maybe you can point me to one.





Again, you are wrong. The player will always opt for an easier shot.


this REALLY lets me know that you don't play ball... at all.... or maybe you are just one of those guys that "plays really good defense"... ha, just kidding, sort of





This is why he shoots left handed to get by Russell - he'd get rejected, if he didn't protect the ball with his body.


remember, you are the one that said that elgin used his right hand because players back then weren't good at using their left... but clearly, elgin finishes seamlessly with his left, just like everyone else does.





The rules back then did not allow the help defense we see today


one of the most common misconceptions that fans get from watching espn and the like - it's not true - not only do today's defenses give up consistent, ROUTINE penetration that we see on every possession more than previous eras - but defenders in previous eras were allowed to camp in the paint and didn't have to guard the 3-point line... today's defenders cannot camp in the paint and must extend out to the 3-point line... this was a massive advantage for previous era defenses.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif

you can't show me plays like this from today's game, where multiple defenders are WAITING under the basket - but i can show you millions from previous eras if i had to, because it happened on every possession in previous eras... guys didn't have to help as much back then because they were already there waiting.

camping in the paint was allowed and quite standard - and defenders were guarding a smaller court because they didn't guard the 3-point line.... let me know if you want to get into the actual rulebook regarding camping in the paint.

[SpanishACB]

it's a dumb question

but Cavsfans is getting overly defensive

having a 50 year handicap is a big deal. It's almost more of a bigger handicap than height or athletism.

now I'm sure people who post on boards aren't exactly good at sports, in average.

but if collegue players of today could travel in time of course they would have a spot in the league, plenty of them. Even some forum posters.

that's nothing against the 60s, the only reason people of today are better equipped is because we have all the craft of past players.

it's as if bob cousy was born 20 years ago. He'd be a lottery pick and most likely one of the better PGs in the league

but the only reason Irving is good at crossovers and handling skills is because he practiced it, and he did so because he saw it on television. You put Irving in the 60s and he would most likely play similar to Cousy. Or are we going to pretend Irving would have come up with the moves and his handling skills by himself?

[swagga]

it's a dumb question

but Cavsfans is getting overly defensive

having a 50 year handicap is a big deal. It's almost more of a bigger handicap than height or athletism.

now I'm sure people who post on boards aren't exactly good at sports, in average.

but if collegue players of today could travel in time of course they would have a spot in the league, plenty of them. Even some forum posters.

that's nothing against the 60s, the only reason people of today are better equipped is because we have all the craft of past players.

it's as if bob cousy was born 20 years ago. He'd be a lottery pick and most likely one of the better PGs in the league

but the only reason Irving is good at crossovers and handling skills is because he practiced it, and he did so because he saw it on television. You put Irving in the 60s and he would most likely play similar to Cousy. Or are we going to pretend Irving would have come up with the moves and his handling skills by himself?

Trolling aside, the question simply highlights the enormous difference in skill between the 60s and today. It doesn't concern itself with training, previous experience etc.Not even athleticism, even if that evolved too through nutrition and better training.

It's about taking one ISH forum poster right now, teleporting him to the 60s and letting him destroy these waterboys. It's not about what if X had training and experience and grew up watching Y, but cold hard realities. Realities like it being a weak league, the game being at its beginnings with a fast pace chucking style not much different from what you see at your YMCA league, with primitive plays, making the stats absolutely irrelevant.... and making the game overly physical to try to compensate for the lack of skill.

Nash or dirk would shit all over that league with their skill.

[SpanishACB]

Trolling aside, the question simply highlights the enormous difference in skill between the 60s and today. It doesn't concern itself with training, previous experience etc.Not even athleticism, even if that evolved too through nutrition and better training.

It's about taking one ISH forum poster right now, teleporting him to the 60s and letting him destroy these waterboys. It's not about what if X had training and experience and grew up watching Y, but cold hard realities. Realities like it being a weak league, the game being at its beginnings with a fast pace chucking style not much different from what you see at your YMCA league, with primitive plays, making the stats absolutely irrelevant.... and making the game overly physical to try to compensate for the lack of skill.

Nash or dirk would shit all over that league with their skill.

oh son don't give me verbose just because your weak agenda was exposed please

[iznogood]

both hops and strength are needed to do that move - and doing it off the wrong leg requires even more hops and strength than otherwise.

The important thing here is to get by the defender and use your body to protect the ball. One doesn't need crazy hops for doing that, it's either speed or being able to change direction on the take off.



i'm not sure what else to say - i can't think of ONE PRO in the history of the game that didn't finish with their left seamlessly... maybe you can point me to one.


There's ton of evidence, mainly players dribbling to the left with their right hand and players adjusting the way they approached the rim so they could finish with their right hand on the left side of the basket. Or players posting on the left block dribbling with their right hand going to the middle! There are clips of Wilt doing that. You can't afford to dribble like that today, because you'll lose the ball. You're just trolling here, this shouldn't even be a point of debate. Players today in general are much more skilled using their weak hand both dribbling and finishing, mainly because they have to be. The individual defence is so much tougher. Just watch the old games. You often here the announcers praising somebody for finishing with their left, a rare ability.



remember, you are the one that said that elgin used his right hand because players back then weren't good at using their left... but clearly, elgin finishes seamlessly with his left, just like everyone else does.
This is not true. I said that the players will always opt for an easier shot. What I said about the players being worse using their weak hand as they are today is obvious, even though I suspect you'll start cherrypicking and posting gifs of people, who were actually able to finish or dribble with their weak hand. But the general level was much lower. Watch the games, this is really obvious.



one of the most common misconceptions that fans get from watching espn and the like - it's not true - not only do today's defenses give up consistent, ROUTINE penetration that we see on every possession more than previous eras - but defenders in previous eras were allowed to camp in the paint and didn't have to guard the 3-point line... today's defenders cannot camp in the paint and must extend out to the 3-point line... this was a massive advantage for previous era defenses.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif

you can't show me plays like this from today's game, where multiple defenders are WAITING under the basket - but i can show you millions from previous eras if i had to, because it happened on every possession in previous eras... guys didn't have to help as much back then because they were already there waiting.

camping in the paint was allowed and quite standard - and defenders were guarding a smaller court because they didn't guard the 3-point line.... let me know if you want to get into the actual rulebook regarding camping in the paint.
I guess I must've missed all the invisible defenders that were protecting the rim on the clips that you were showing earlier.

[Psileas]

if there was someone that could do the Elgin move above, they would not be able to dunk it... i'm not sure where you get the idea that someone who takes that shot could somehow dunk it instead.

You got me wrong. I didn't say they'd be able to perform these acrobatic moves AND dunk the ball at the same time, that would be insane. I mean that they refrain from performing the Baylor moves, favoring instead the typical modern posterizing moves, which is what they mostly grew up with.

[swagga]

oh son don't give me verbose just because your weak agenda was exposed please

I tell it like it is son. Don't need to get mad and start seeing agendas where they aren't.

[HomieWeMajor]

Looking at this video I'm not so sure anymore : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhBSYxCqn38

[3ball]

You got me wrong. I didn't say they'd be able to perform these acrobatic moves AND dunk the ball at the same time, that would be insane. I mean that they refrain from performing the Baylor moves, favoring instead the typical modern posterizing moves, which is what they mostly grew up with.
your logic still makes no sense - did jordan refrain from doing elgin moves?.. did he only posterize guys?... absolutely not - jordan did elgin hangtime shots all the time.

and obviously, tons of guys do elgin moves and hangtime.... they don't always dunk it - i have no idea what you're point is here - i think that's because it makes no sense.

your point is "guys don't do hangtime moves anymore - they dunk it instead" is nonsensical.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I tell it like it is son. Don't need to get mad and start seeing agendas where they aren't.

You're probably one of the worst posters here... Just an ignorant child running around acting dumb...

[3ball]

even though I suspect you'll start cherrypicking and posting gifs of people, who were actually able to finish or dribble with their weak hand.


no, you are right here - guys couldn't dribble with their left nearly as good back then - but that is a completely different issue, that you have decided to conflate with shooting left-handed.

it is very common knowledge that maintaining an ongoing dribble with your left hand, is MUCH more difficult than finishing with your left hand... and yes, guys today dribble much better with their left hand, but honestly, there are guys still guys today that don't go left that great.





The important thing here is to get by the defender and use your body to protect the ball. One doesn't need crazy hops for doing that, it's either speed or being able to change direction on the take off.


but you need hops for the hangtime... you can't deny that, try as you are.





adjusting the way they approached the rim so they could finish with their right hand on the left side of the basket.


this is just your ignorance on about the game, sorry my man, i'm not trying to insult, but this is true here - the evidence is you trying to conflate finishing with your left, to dribbling with your left - that is sheer ignorance.

and guys today do the exact same thing that you specified - where they position themselves for a right handed shot... but sometimes guys go up with their left too no problem - this is no different than previous eras.

guys don't always use the optimal hand in every situation - that's intuitive - but you are looking at it in a very biased way, because someone has sold you the ridiculous notion that finishing with your left hand is a special skill - IT IS NOT - you obviously don't play ball to have any real clue just how easy it is even for junior highers..

but the easiest thing is to just go look at old footage yourself - guys finished with their left all the time... i already showed you elgin doing it on russell, but it would take literally a minute or two to find someone else finishing with their left, just like it would take me a minute or two to find someone in today's game finishing with their left.





I guess I must've missed all the invisible defenders that were protecting the rim on the clips that you were showing earlier.


this is a troll right?... seriously, the paint was packed in every elgin GIF i posted.

and wait a minute... do you really think the paint defense and at-rim protection in today's game is ANYWHERE NEAR what it was in previous eras?
.

[LAZERUSS]

What is this NONSENSE that NBA players in the 60's couldn't dribble?

Hell, there were LITTLE KIDS dribbling between their legs and behind their backs in the 60's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

Get that crap outta here.

[Psileas]

your logic still makes no sense - did jordan refrain from doing elgin moves?.. did he only posterize guys?... absolutely not - jordan did elgin hangtime shots all the time.

and obviously, tons of guys do elgin moves and hangtime.... they don't always dunk it - i have no idea what you're point is here - i think that's because it makes no sense.

your point is "guys don't do hangtime moves anymore - they dunk it instead" is nonsensical.

What does Jordan have to do with today's players? I'm talking about today's era, and, yes, I'm seeing a lot more players dunking or trying to dunk than releasing the ball in some other, tougher acrobatic way that requires not as much a brutal vertical leap as strength and body/ball control.
If your issue is that I implied that dunking is excluded from hangtime moves, no, I never meant so.

[swagga]

You're probably one of the worst posters here... Just an ignorant child running around acting dumb...

why you mad son? btw your age assumption skills are on par with your basketball takes, as in shitty.

Nonetheless, could you care to argue how your average 60s guard could fare against the average D3 college guard from today? and don't give me the crap with grooming 60s players in todays environment. That might or might work out for them and besides a couple of obvious talents (wilt, russell, ..) you never know how they'd adapt/evolve in today's game, you can just assume.

Feel free to hate son.

[swagga]

What is this NONSENSE that NBA players in the 60's couldn't dribble?

Hell, there were LITTLE KIDS dribbling between their legs and behind their backs in the 60's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

Get that crap outta here.

:lol :roll: we talking bout NBA dribbling skills with a world class athletic defender glued to you, not a circus tape.

[swagga]

Looking at this video I'm not so sure anymore : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhBSYxCqn38

:roll: homie when is the redguard slaying a mountain lion video comin? Seeing the circus videos laz has been puttin I'm starting to understand that basketball was a different and more creative sport back then, involving props, lions, slaves and tamers ... and I'm looking forward to adding more high quality 60s basketball moves to my dvd collection.

god bless you and your family.

[G-train]

None of you guys would make it unless you are a professional player now.

[G-train]

I'm 6'3', with good handles and a decent midrange J. Seeing the cousy clips there is no doubt in my mind that i'd be starter material.


So you are 6'1, would be called for carry violations constantly and couldn't get a shot up.

[SHAQisGOAT]

why you mad son? btw your age assumption skills are on par with your basketball takes, as in shitty.

Nonetheless, could you care to argue how your average 60s guard could fare against the average D3 college guard from today? and don't give me the crap with grooming 60s players in todays environment. That might or might work out for them and besides a couple of obvious talents (wilt, russell, ..) you never know how they'd adapt/evolve in today's game, you can just assume.

Feel free to hate son.

Mad? Me? :rolleyes: You're the one making threads, posting stuff always trying to bring this "discussion" up... If anything, you're the one who's mad.

I won't engage into any type of discussion with you, serves no point, just futile and leads to nothing. You don't even know what you're talking about. You know little about basketball or its history.

You're the hater here, child.

[iznogood]

no, you are right here - guys couldn't dribble with their left nearly as good back then - but that is a completely different issue, that you have decided to conflate with shooting left-handed.

it is very common knowledge that maintaining an ongoing dribble with your left hand, is MUCH more difficult than finishing with your left hand... and yes, guys today dribble much better with their left hand, but honestly, there are guys still guys today that don't go left that great.
I believe these two are connected in a way that none of them comes naturally so they both need more practice. Neither weak hand finishing nor weak hand dribbling were drilled as thoroughly and early they are today. I am well aware of the Mikan drill, but I've also watched a lot of games and I am not changing my opinion on that matter. It's pretty obvious, just not as obvious as the dribbling is.

Just watch the amount of shots people take with their weak hand today, it's not even comparable. Especially the players in the post - even a player like Dwight Howard, who's post moves are considered under average, shoots left handed jump hooks. I'm not even bringing in the guys like Gasols, Bogut, Jefferson and others, who are very skilled with their weak hand. Then there are guards like Mike Conley or Kyrie, who make weak hand runners and floaters.



but you need hops for the hangtime... you can't deny that, try as you are.[/3ball]
You really don't. I used to pull this move often and I can barely dunk. I'm a tad short of 6'2 so I'd say my vertical is average at best. It mostly has to do with the ability to shoot on your way down, which is means strength and being able to control your body in the air.

[QUOTE=3ball]
this is just your ignorance on about the game, sorry my man, i'm not trying to insult, but this is true here - the evidence is you trying to conflate finishing with your left, to dribbling with your left - that is sheer ignorance.

and guys today do the exact same thing that you specified - where they position themselves for a right handed shot... but sometimes guys go up with their left too no problem - this is no different than previous eras.

guys don't always use the optimal hand in every situation - that's intuitive - but you are looking at it in a very biased way, because someone has sold you the ridiculous notion that finishing with your left hand is a special skill - IT IS NOT - you obviously don't play ball to have any real clue just how easy it is even for junior highers..
You really should stop saying I don't play basketball because you only make yourself look stupid. You literally have no idea about the amount of basketball I've played, teached or called.

As for you saying left hand is not a special skill, you're wrong. First of all, it's not nearly as easy or difficult for everybody. It depends on how ambidextrous someone is. This is most noticeable if you're trying to teach kids how to finish with their weak hand. Even those, who are ambidextrous and have good athletic abilities need a lot of time to learn how to do it. And the ones who are not as talented struggle very hard. And the only reason why most of the high schoolers do it effortlessly today is, because they've made thousands of weak handed shots in practices.

It's pretty obvious to see how difficult finishing with the weak hand is, when you're working with a players, who had tremendous athletic abilities as youngsters and never had the need to incorporate weak hand finishing in their repertoire. Sooner or later they reach the level when the strong-hand-only approach of finishing just won't cut it. It takes a long time and crazy amount of effort to get the guys like this to use their weak hand the way players, who learned how to do it earlier do. But situations like this are nowadays rare, since kids get into organised basketball early and have some sort of coaching.

As for players forcing a strong hand shot when a weak hand shot would seem more optimal - it does happen, but you see it way less often as you would while watching the old games. This is why you don't see people shoot finger rolls the way Wilt would - it's a shot you take with your inside hand and offers no protection. Furthermore, this only proves my point, that players always opt for the shot that seems easier in that specific situation (you claimed that they would do it for the swagger, which is ridiculous). It also proves my point that the weak hand shot is considered a difficult skill. If it was so easy, people would take them all the time. Yet you still see guys trying to use their strong hand as often as possible.


but the easiest thing is to just go look at old footage yourself - guys finished with their left all the time... i already showed you elgin doing it on russell, but it would take literally a minute or two to find someone else finishing with their left, just like it would take me a minute or two to find someone in today's game finishing with their left.
I've seen enough old games to know what I'm talking about, both NBA and FIBA. Of course, you can cherry pick and find players who actually could or would finish with their weak hand, but watch a whole game and you'll see that the general level of using the weak hand is much much lower. Ask any of the guys who used to play competitive basketball back in the days, how often and intense weak hand finishing was practiced and you'll see it can't be compared to the amount of drills people do today.




this is a troll right?... seriously, the paint was packed in every elgin GIF i posted.

and wait a minute... do you really think the paint defense and at-rim protection in today's game is ANYWHERE NEAR what it was in previous eras?
.
Yes, I see people in the paint, yet nobody is cutting him off to take a charge or making any serious effort to defend his plays. The only case when somebody actually challenges him is when Russell does it and Baylor actually has to finish with his left hand. No need to bring in the rules, I know what the rules were. But saying people were allowed to camp in the paint doesn't necessarily mean that the defense was actually better or tougher. Also the amount of contact allowed when defending back in the days was far from what players play through today.

[3ball]

What does Jordan have to do with today's players? I'm talking about today's era, and, yes, I'm seeing a lot more players dunking or trying to dunk than releasing the ball in some other, tougher acrobatic way that requires not as much a brutal vertical leap as strength and body/ball control.
If your issue is that I implied that dunking is excluded from hangtime moves, no, I never meant so.
you know what - you are right, and there's an easy explanation for why you see less tough, low-efficiency shot attempts such as hangtime shots, and are instead seeing more open dunks were guys don't need to adjust versus the defender:

ball movement is more effective than before due to today's spacing and clear lane, which reduces the need for players to take their man and score ON them nearly as much.

those hangtime shots by elgin and others in previous eras aren't nearly as necessary today, because as the Spurs showed in last years Finals, all you need is some decent role players who employ smart ball-movement that takes advantage of the tremendous spacing and clear lane in today's game with the ***** rules - i don't think one guy on the Spurs has any hangtime at all!!!!... :oldlol:... they just get open shot, after open shot, after open shot... and that's how all the teams operate now - the spacing has allowed open shots (which of course includes dunks) to be both available and pursued on every possession, by every team in today's game..

that's why you see guys today that can average 20ppg+ on mostly open shots - you could never average 20ppg in previous eras on open shots... the lack of spacing and congested lane didn't allow ball movement or cutting to be as effective - and that was the point of the new rules - the NBA has stated very prominently, that the new rules were specifically designed to make passing and cutting easier, and to "open up the game".

like, you couldn't go back and find a game from the 60's, where a guy scored 20 points on mostly open shots - impossible - but that super-duper-easy to find in today's game.... like, every night.

can you point me to a game from the 60's where a guy scored 20 points on mostly open shots?... you can't... :confusedshrug: .... but i can easily find such games from today's softer brand of the game.
.

[swagga]

So you are 6'1, would be called for carry violations constantly and couldn't get a shot up.

so I'm 6'3 and I'd be locking up one of the other teams' guards something fierce. With that defense my aunt could put up a shot, not to mention shoot a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open 3.

[swagga]

Mad? Me? :rolleyes: You're the one making threads, posting stuff always trying to bring this "discussion" up... If anything, you're the one who's mad.

I won't engage into any type of discussion with you, serves no point, just futile and leads to nothing. You don't even know what you're talking about. You know little about basketball or its history.

You're the hater here, child.

instead of using some sort of reasonable argument you just stated some random personal opinion about me then called me a hater. whatever makes you sleep at night son, idgaf :banana:

[Dro]

Its pretty stupid honestly to try to answer this question......Its also silly to say that Lebron or whoever from today could go back and play in the 60's and ASSUME they have the same advantages as far as training, medicine, the ability to watch players who came before them and expand on the moves they used, changes in the rules, etc, etc, blah blah and claim they would dominate the 60's...Well no sh*t, Donald Sloan would dominate if he still all the advantages that players have today in the modern era...Yet when someone says take a player from the 60's and put him in today's era, why don't you give them the same advantages? No sh*t if you plucked (insert random 60's player) with few advantages as far as weight training, medicines, physicians, style of game, the advantage of watching players who came before them, etc, etc, blah, blah..

Why in the hell would you make comparisons' like that and handicap players from the old school...Yes put Gus Johnson in today's NBA and give him the same advantages that players of today have and he would probably dominate today also...Its stupid and short sighted to assume it would only work the other way around....

[Draz]

You are a fool.

Anyway, when I was roughly 19-20, I played against a former NBA "scrub" who was already over 60 years old, so likely played in that era. The guy was just as good as me even though he was old as dirt and I was a collegiate sprinter at the time with a decent amount of basketball experience. It really taught me how good NBA players, even from his era, must be.
Bet you can beat him now

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

[navy]

http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg
:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:roll:
Dude's an NBA legend what are you laughing at?

[CelticBaller]

http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg
come ****ing on

this is cookies right here, how can any of you wilt gobblers defend this shit?

[MavsSuperFan]

I can dribble without looking at the ball
:lol :oldlol: you would be a legend

[MavsSuperFan]

are people actually arguing that on average NBA players today arent vastly better than during the 1960s?

[3ball]

Cousy is dribbling out the clock... that's how it looks when you dribble the clock out.

it's no different - a bunch of white boys playing defense vs. Cousy and a bunch of white boys playing defense vs. lebron... :confusedshrug:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/57929f36881400da1070697af1d87f38.gif


the only difference is the paint is wide open for lebron.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

And remember this is a HOFer in the 60s....not some scrub :oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Cousy is dribbling out the clock... that's how it looks when you dribble the clock out.

it's no different - a bunch of white boys playing defense vs. Cousy and a bunch of white boys playing defense vs. lebron... :confusedshrug:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/57929f36881400da1070697af1d87f38.gif


the only difference is the paint is wide open for lebron.

What exactly is unimpressive about that play? It's a play you see like every game yet you seem obsessed with that specific gif.

[The_Pharcyde]

these dudes are trolling its actually kinda funny tho...
any NBA guy from then would kill anyone here, its obvious they would

no need to get worked up

[IncarceratedBob]

Of course I could make a roster, anybody could. Back in the 60s sports weren't what they are now, very few guys actually made their living off of basketball. 95% of the professional players also had 9-5 jobs which is why every game started at 7 PM, they played basketball as a side gig.

[Marchesk]

Steve Nash won 2 MVPs in this bigger, stronger faster era. But if we put him back in the 60s, there's very little chance he's sniffing an MVP over the likes of Wilt, Russell and Oscar. Baylor and West never won an MVP putting up the numbers they did, and reaching the finals every year.

You have Jose Barea guarding Lebron in the finals, and you guys have the temerity to claim how much better today's players are?

[Marchesk]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2013/12/09/SwaggyPLOL.gif

http://solecollector.com/media/up/2013/12/files/kobe-airball.gif

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2632191/chalmersoops.gif

http://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/wade3.gif

http://fattmemrite.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/kendrickperkins.gif

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/pxn5iy.gif

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/680/920/PerkinsPass_original.gif

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Those are just gifs of players ****ing up....(and of Kendrick Perkins - One of the worst offensive players in the league). Thing about the Cousy gif isn't just the guy falling down (the **** up)...it's every thing about the play...the way he gets up...how ridiculously slow and unathletic all 3 players look...how cousy dribbles and seems to have to look at the ball and seems uncomfortable with it in his left hand...etc

heck the first gif you posted shows a guy doing a 360 in air...something completely unheard of in the 60s...if that was a gif from then you would be posting it as evidence of athletic ability.

[3ball]

http://fattmemrite.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/kendrickperkins.gif

wow, kendrick doing the completely legal and allowed move where players take 3 steps off a single dribble and then finish (looks like kendrick didn't finish here tho... lol).

this was not allowed in the 60's - players had to take an extra dribble or get called for carry or travel, and the extra dribbles slowed them down and hurt their ability to generate momentum headed towards the rim.

[swagga]

Steve Nash won 2 MVPs in this bigger, stronger faster era. But if we put him back in the 60s, there's very little chance he's sniffing an MVP over the likes of Wilt, Russell and Oscar. Baylor and West never won an MVP putting up the numbers they did, and reaching the finals every year.

You have Jose Barea guarding Lebron in the finals, and you guys have the temerity to claim how much better today's players are?

further proof of how the league has gotten extremely skilled compared to the 60s, where superstar guards couldn't even dribble the ball and each team force fed their bigmen because they couldn't hit a jumpshot.

thank you for making my point easier son.

[3ball]

further proof of how the league has gotten extremely skilled compared to the 60s, where superstar guards couldn't even dribble the ball and each team force fed their bigmen because they couldn't hit a jumpshot.

thank you for making my point easier son.
back then, they called travel or carry on a lot of the guard moves used today.

this restricted players big time back then on the moves they could do.

this thread explains it pretty well... http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900

[CelticBaller]

What exactly is unimpressive about that play? It's a play you see like every game yet you seem obsessed with that specific gif.
Ironically varejao is a big man. Cousy was 6ft

Are we seriously comparing the handles of an average big man to a "professional"pg? that's not helping your point :lol

[LAZERUSS]

http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

Let's show a little more of that play, shall we...as well as some other's,

and keep in mind that most of these clips were from the 50's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPepEJSxexw


Of course, how about the SIXTIES...

This from a 6-5 player who played college ball in the 60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


Another "magician" from the mid-60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQrtrlQYpI



Or another white player who was playing college ball in the early 70's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY65sR4rvA0


The 5-9 Calvin Murphy who was scoring 38 ppg in college in the 60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmI9MSuXtdY

(BTW, Murphy could easily dunk)...

And here was a 42 point NBA playoff game near the end of his career (and in the Magic and Bird era)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8YWP_QTVkU


And again...LITTLE KIDS in 1962...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

BTW, they obviously were copying the Harlem Globetrotters, who had been doing much the same in the 50's...


Of course, let those players carry and palm the ball like the "moderns" do, and they would have been putting on spectacular displays of dribbling.

[LAZERUSS]

As a sidenote...

how good were the players of the 60's?

How about this one example... in the 69-70 NCAA title game, the 6-9 Sidney Wicks (who?) went H2H with the 7-2 Artis Gilmore...

and outrebounded him, 18-16, held Artis to an unfathomable 9-29 shooting from the field, and blocked five of his shots.

Of course we know that an old Gilmore was beasting against Hakeem in their ten H2H's from 84-85 thru 85-86.

[swagga]

back then, they called travel or carry on a lot of the guard moves used today.

this restricted players big time back then on the moves they could do.

this thread explains it pretty well... http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900

some very unique argumentation. Do you feel that the 4 steps that are legal today are holding back the current crop of athletic players from showcasing their basketball skills? :lol

[swagga]

As a sidenote...

how good were the players of the 60's?

How about this one example... in the 69-70 NCAA title game, the 6-9 Sidney Wicks (who?) went H2H with the 7-2 Artis Gilmore...

and outrebounded him, 18-16, held Artis to an unfathomable 9-29 shooting from the field, and blocked five of his shots.

Of course we know that an old Gilmore was beasting against Hakeem in their ten H2H's from 84-85 thru 85-86.

i hear that Homiewemajor has some sick new video of cousy finishing hard at the rim over legit seven footers, with some sick oldskool beegees rap as a soundtrack too... looking forward :applause:

[swagga]

Let's show a little more of that play, shall we...as well as some other's,

and keep in mind that most of these clips were from the 50's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPepEJSxexw


Of course, how about the SIXTIES...

This from a 6-5 player who played college ball in the 60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


Another "magician" from the mid-60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQrtrlQYpI



Or another white player who was playing college ball in the early 70's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY65sR4rvA0


The 5-9 Calvin Murphy who was scoring 38 ppg in college in the 60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmI9MSuXtdY

(BTW, Murphy could easily dunk)...

And here was a 42 point NBA playoff game near the end of his career (and in the Magic and Bird era)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8YWP_QTVkU


And again...LITTLE KIDS in 1962...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

BTW, they obviously were copying the Harlem Globetrotters, who had been doing much the same in the 50's...


Of course, let those players carry and palm the ball like the "moderns" do, and they would have been putting on spectacular displays of dribbling.

one of the wettest most fundamental Js in the history of the league. Also the high release makes it unblockable, as we see against the incredible defense played in that video.

He'd have a very easy time getting his J off against the likes of tony allen/john wall/lebron today.

at least top 10 goat imo. I even made a GIF outta of it to teach these young bucks like myself the real talk of the harlem courts from my granddaddys days.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-27-2014/B_lovZ.gif

[j3lademaster]

one of the wettest most fundamental Js in the history of the league. Also the high release makes it unblockable, as we see against the incredible defense played in that video.

He'd have a very easy time getting his J off against the likes of tony allen/john wall/lebron today.

at least top 10 goat imo. I even made a GIF outta of it to teach these young bucks like myself the real talk of the harlem courts from my granddaddys days.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-27-2014/B_lovZ.gifThose days it seemed like you can shoot an open 15 footer whenever you wanted to....

The clips of Pistol Pete vs the clips of Cousy were COMPLETELY different. Cousy's era played defense the local YMCA would be embarrassed about and Pistol's actually looked pretty legit.

[ILLsmak]

I think I could under a few impossible circumstances:

If you told me at 12, "At age 22, you will be put in a time machine and send back to the 60s." As well as that I would never injure my ankle and would take training seriously, I could play then.

Would I be a star or even a starter? Doubt, but I could get a roster spot, serious.

Currently... lol. Nah. My ankle is ridic ****ed and I've got too much anxiety nowadays (no idea why.)

I do think athleticism matters, tho. And if I could take advantage of modern nutrition and build myself as a bball player, yeah, I could. But that's just a dream and not even taking into account the reality that I'd probably get bored of training for 10 years even tho when I was a babbie I dreamed of NBA. I dunno if I could get used to the world being black and white tho.

-Smak

[SugarHill]

I think I could under a few impossible circumstances:

If you told me at 12, "At age 22, you will be put in a time machine and send back to the 60s." As well as that I would never injure my ankle and would take training seriously, I could play then.

Would I be a star or even a starter? Doubt, but I could get a roster spot, serious.

Currently... lol. Nah. My ankle is ridic ****ed and I've got too much anxiety nowadays (no idea why.)

I do think athleticism matters, tho. And if I could take advantage of modern nutrition and build myself as a bball player, yeah, I could. But that's just a dream and not even taking into account the reality that I'd probably get bored of training for 10 years even tho when I was a babbie I dreamed of NBA. I dunno if I could get used to the world being black and white tho.

-Smak

:oldlol:

[3ball]

some very unique argumentation. Do you feel that the 4 steps that are legal today are holding back the current crop of athletic players from showcasing their basketball skills?


no, that's exactly what HELPS them do more athletic plays.

when you can take more steps per dribble, you can be in RUNNING MODE more, and can generate more momentum on the way to the rim for more explosiveness at the rim.

here's Jordan doing the standard one-dribble, 3 steps move - if jordan had to take an extra dribble here, it would slow him down immensely, and he wouldn't be able to RUN as much towards the basket and get the tremendous momentum that he did.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/60712a9d11dc0242ae5162a487fff015.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-27-2014/B_lovZ.gif
Motherfking legend :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk308/tsheyunpeng/BobCousycrossmove.gif

http://www.miscupload.com/upload/6034864225591752235013.gif

[swagga]

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk308/tsheyunpeng/BobCousycrossmove.gif

http://www.miscupload.com/upload/6034864225591752235013.gif

shades of kobe. :applause:

[swagga]

no, that's exactly what HELPS them do more athletic plays.

when you can take more steps per dribble, you can be in RUNNING MODE more, and can generate more momentum on the way to the rim for more explosiveness at the rim.

here's Jordan doing the standard one-dribble, 3 steps move - if jordan had to take an extra dribble here, it would slow him down immensely, and he wouldn't be able to RUN as much towards the basket and get the tremendous momentum that he did.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/60712a9d11dc0242ae5162a487fff015.gif

i was thinking more like dunking after 4 steps, starting from the 3pt line, with the value of a 3pter.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

At this point, nope
But what amazes me in this thread is how some people fail to realize that basketball has evolved a lot since the 60's.Everything from shooting mechanics, dribbling, defensive and offensive schemes got better.Not to mention the talent pool is a lot bigger since basketball got more popular and more money is being invested in it.There is no doubt in my mind pretty much any modern player would be able to play in the 60's and put up much better stats than they are now.Still doesn't mean greats like Wilt,Oscar and Russel should be forgotten or less valued, they did dominate their era, but comparing them to modern players on a skill based level is really hard, not to mention comparing stats doesn't make any sense
Remembering the old times is nice, but being biased and overly nostalgic is not

[sick_brah07]

in terms of skill and understanding how to play the game, it has evolved so I believe my knowledge on how to break down a team defensively or how to stop a team offensively would be up there in the 60's so if anything I think I could be a very good coach in the 60's(with the knowledge I have today) also to highlight the fact, thanks to TV and the internet I have probably watched more basketball then a lot of guys could in the sixties hence giving me a hell of a bigger advantage.

In terms of being an athlete I think people under estimate what it means to be a world class athlete, although the pool has grown and more people play basketball, the professional athletes of the 60's were still professional athletes. So I believe we really under estimate how fast and strong the guys from then would have been (obviously guys today are all round faster, stronger and more agile) but its not like we have evolved so much that guys from the 60's are slow old men with broken bones and today we have super hyper athletes that are 10 times faster and stronger. Take for example swimming and sprinting, would athletes today beat the 60's athletes... sure, but would I ? probably not because they were still clocking incredible times (see Carl lewis for example, his not from the 60's but you get my point)

so to my personal conclusion although I consider myself a good basketball player and I have played against very good competition in Australia even played with and against some pros in tournaments I don't believe physically speaking I have enough great GENES to be a world class athlete even in the 60's

but of course this is ISH we is all PROS that averaged 30-10-10 in high school haha

[3ball]

At this point, nope
But what amazes me in this thread is how some people fail to realize that basketball has evolved a lot since the 60's.Everything from shooting mechanics, dribbling, defensive and offensive schemes got better.Not to mention the talent pool is a lot bigger since basketball got more popular and more money is being invested in it.There is no doubt in my mind pretty much any modern player would be able to play in the 60's and put up much better stats than they are now.Still doesn't mean greats like Wilt,Oscar and Russel should be forgotten or less valued, they did dominate their era, but comparing them to modern players on a skill based level is really hard, not to mention comparing stats doesn't make any sense
Remembering the old times is nice, but being biased and overly nostalgic is not
it's naive not to recognize that the explosiveness of players in the 60's was significantly hampered by the league not allowing carrying and travelling like players are allowed today - this was demonstrated in this thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900



it's also naive not to recognize the differences between two-pointer basketball, and basketball WITH a 3-point line.... that was demonstrated in this thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358166

[sick_brah07]

it's naive not to recognize that the explosiveness of players in the 60's was significantly hampered by the league not allowing carrying and travelling like players are allowed today - this was demonstrated in this thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900



it's also naive not to recognize the differences between two-pointer basketball, and basketball WITH a 3-point line.... that was demonstrated in this thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358166


this is very true, you cannot do a ridiculously quick crossover without doing a move that would without a doubt be considered a carry in the 60's

[Marchesk]

Also, try being super explosive in these shoes:

http://thumbs4.picclick.com/d/w1600/pict/111116343411_/Vintage-60s-CONVERSE-HIGH-TOP-Dr-Doc-J.jpg

[DaRkJaWs]

Also, try being super explosive in these shoes:

http://thumbs4.picclick.com/d/w1600/pict/111116343411_/Vintage-60s-CONVERSE-HIGH-TOP-Dr-Doc-J.jpg
And try to make your points against these guys (note: this picture is proof that wilt could touch the top of the backboard. Note how he has a closed fist and imagine if it was fully open.)

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg

[Marchesk]

And try to make your points against these guys (note: this picture is proof that wilt could touch the top of the backboard. Note how he has a closed fist and imagine if it was fully open.)

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg

That's a great pic. There's also the video where he blocks a shot that looks to be something like six inches from the top, and Wilt catches it on the way down.

[3ball]

And try to make your points against these guys (note: this picture is proof that wilt could touch the top of the backboard. Note how he has a closed fist and imagine if it was fully open.)

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg
what a picture... elgin baylor averaged 39ppg and 19 rebounds per game, and he had to play these two (Wilt and Russell) 24 times per season (30% of his games).

[jongib369]

And try to make your points against these guys (note: this picture is proof that wilt could touch the top of the backboard. Note how he has a closed fist and imagine if it was fully open.)

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg
No where near the hoop it seems, possibly a jump ball ?

[swagga]

And try to make your points against these guys (note: this picture is proof that wilt could touch the top of the backboard. Note how he has a closed fist and imagine if it was fully open.)

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg

reaching that high and being stronger than a mountain lion and still shooting fadeaway layups. wilt was a great human being for taking it easy on those milkmen and clerks.

[LAZERUSS]

reaching that high and being stronger than a mountain lion and still shooting fadeaway layups. wilt was a great human being for taking it easy on those milkmen and clerks.

Can you imagine if the NBA would have allowed him to play like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

They would have been carrying those "milkmen and clerks" out in body bags.

As it was Chamberlain ROUTINELY hung 50+ point games of the 6-10 to 7-3 centers that he actually faced, including the greatest defensive center in NBA history. BTW, Russell was the SAME height as Dwight Howard is today, and likely had a higher vertical and reach.

[AirFederer]

reaching that high and being stronger than a mountain lion and still shooting fadeaway layups. wilt was a great human being for taking it easy on those milkmen and clerks.

They say he even did a nasty fade away dunk in practice :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

This guy averaged 17 ppg, 13 rpg, and shot .440 from the field in his NBA career, most of which took place in the 60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

How exceptional was his leaping ability?

http://www.cornerclubmoscow.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=2


When Johnson played at Idaho in 1963, he already had a reputation as a leaper of the highest order. One evening at the Corner Club, a local tavern on Main Street in Moscow, Johnson was requested by owner Herm Goetz to display his rare ability to the patrons. The Corner Club was a very modest establishment, converted from a white-stuccoed small chapel in the 1940s with hardwood floors and a beamed ceiling. From a standing start near the bar, Johnson touched a spot on a beam 11'6" (3.505 m) above the floor. This spot was ceremoniously marked with a nail by Goetz, who then proudly proclaimed that anyone who could duplicate the feat could drink for free. A 40-inch (1.016 m) diameter circle was painted on the floor, and both feet had to start inside the circle to ensure a standing start. A full 23 years went by with many attempts at Gus Johnson's Nail, including Bill Walton in the summer of 1984, but there were no successes.

That was until 1986, when the College of Southern Idaho basketball team from Twin Falls stopped in town in January on their way to a game against NIC in Coeur d'Alene. Joey Johnson, a younger brother of then NBA star Dennis Johnson, was brought into the Corner Club for a try. The 6'3" (1.905 m) guard had a 48" (1.219 m) vertical leap and could put his chin on a basketball rim (10 feet (3.048 m)) with a running start.

Johnson laced up his shoes and touched the nail on his first try but was disqualified because he did not start with both feet inside the 40-inch circle. The next attempt came from a legal static start but was just a bit short. On his third try, Johnson grabbed and bent the legendary nail, a landmark event in Vandal sports history. Goetz pulled the nail out of the beam and pounded it back in, a half inch (13 mm) higher.