more success with shaq from 98-04: wade vs kobe

[mehyaM24]

kobe
- better shooter, midrange player and possibly volume scorer
- horrific shot selection, monopolizes possessions, is selfish

wade
- better on ball defender, playmaker, more efficient style of play
- lazy, sits out games when he doesnt need to, streak shooter

assuming each player starts playing with shaq their rookie season, on the lakers, who has more titles when its all said and done?

[mehyaM24]

oh and FWIW, i began with 98 because i felt that was the season shaq began his prime (04/05 could be argued, in terms of his exit, but this comparison has a bit more substance with just one franchise).

[DMAVS41]

how are you doing it for Wade?

98 was Kobe's 2nd year and he still wasn't a starter. Wade's 2nd year...he was elite and one of the best players in the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd roll with Wade. His positive and negatives outweigh Kobe's.. plus I've always felt in the triangle, he would have been deadly (at least his passing would've been).

[mehyaM24]

how are you doing it for Wade?

98 was Kobe's 2nd year and he still wasn't a starter. Wade's 2nd year...he was elite and one of the best players in the game.
wade starts his rookie campaign during the 98 season, the year Shaq entered his prime.

[DMAVS41]

wade starts his rookie campaign during the 98 season, the year Shaq entered his prime.

Roughly the same. Could see 2 titles minimum. Could see 4 titles maximum...

Assuming we aren't talking about injuries here.

[Im so nba'd out]

kobe thread...

[mehyaM24]

Roughly the same. Could see 2 titles minimum. Could see 4 titles maximum...

Assuming we aren't talking about injuries here.
i see 3 or 4 titles as well, and yes, everything the same....injuries/coaches/personnel etc.

[SouBeachTalents]

Anywhere from 2-4

[T_L_P]

I think they win in 99, 00, 01 and 04 with Wade.

[chazzy]

Rookie Wade - no
2nd year Wade - hurt in the playoffs
3rd year Wade - yes
4th year Wade - injured
5th year Wade - injured
6th year Wade - close call. Both Kobe and Wade dealt with injuries in their respective playoffs

[DMAVS41]

Rookie Wade - no
2nd year Wade - hurt in the playoffs
3rd year Wade - yes
4th year Wade - injured
5th year Wade - injured
6th year Wade - close call. Both Kobe and Wade dealt with injuries in their respective playoffs

he said no injuries (I'm assuming that means when Kobe was hurt...Wade would be hurt in the hypothetical)...otherwise...you'd have to rule out his rookie year (no chance), and his 2nd, 4th, and 5th years....seems pointless to debate that. also, that is a 7 year span...

Which I believe would be Wade in 10...real possibility that 10 Wade wins with the 04 Lakers.

[royalbluecosby]

kobe
- better shooter, midrange player and possibly volume scorer
- horrific shot selection, monopolizes possessions, is selfish

wade
- better on ball defender, playmaker, more efficient style of play
- lazy, sits out games when he doesnt need to, streak shooter

assuming each player starts playing with shaq their rookie season, on the lakers, who has more titles when its all said and done?

Kobe is a better on ball defender but wade is the better help defender

[mehyaM24]

basically everything the same with the lakers. if kobe misses games, then so does wade. just common sense.

applying the same injuries wade had in miami to LA and the hypothetical is pointless.

i see that most feel that wade wins anywhere from 3 - 4 rings. dude is underrated when comparing him to kobe as players and not legacies. no doubt about it.

[DMAVS41]

basically everything the same with the lakers. if kobe misses games, then so does wade. just common sense.

applying the same injuries wade had in miami to LA and the hypothetical is pointless.

i see that most feel that wade wins anywhere from 3 - 4 rings. dude is underrated when comparing him to kobe as players and not legacies. no doubt about it.

I really don't think Wade is under-rated anymore. You won't see many balanced fans act like there is some huge difference between Kobe and Wade from 04 to the present.

The difference between them is that Kobe has had far better longevity for his career as before Wade even stepped foot on the basketball court...Kobe was a good player in 99, very good in 00...and a top 5 or so player each of the next 4 years. That 6 years is where Kobe had the edge on Wade....not from 04 to present...where this just isn't much difference either way.

04 to present...regular season:

Wade 24/5/6 57% TS
Kobe 28/6/5 56% TS

04 to present....playoffs:

Wade 23/5/5 55% TS
Kobe 28/5/5 55% TS

Any gap offensively in favor of Kobe over that time is made up by Wade playing considerably better defense most of the years in question. Like always...it remains a toss up as to who has been the best shooting guard in the NBA over the last 10 years when objectively looking at it.

[tpols]

basically everything the same with the lakers. if kobe misses games, then so does wade. just common sense.

applying the same injuries wade had in miami to LA and the hypothetical is pointless.

i see that most feel that wade wins anywhere from 3 - 4 rings. dude is underrated when comparing him to kobe as players and not legacies. no doubt about it.

There's 2 problems with your argument..

1) Wade gets hurt more than kobe.. that of course factors in to how the results will come out. And Wade was seriously hurt for two years in your comparisons' parameters.. which would objectively make it harder for him to win rings in those years.

2) This comparison is also skewed slightly because youre giving wade from 98 to 04, 5-6 years of his prime where as Kobe in the same timespan only had 4 years of prime play(01-04). This is mostly due to Kobe coming into the league as a 17 year old while Wade spent some time in college.

[kennethgriffin]

A) if kobe started in 97 at age 20 or 21 instead of 17 then the lakers probly win 6 titles by 2004. Dell harris also stunted kobes growth due to wanting to stick with an allstar level back court of eddie jones and nick vanexel.

And kobe actually did play more of a wade style game during those years. He drove and penitrated. Drew fouls. Was unselfish. And the perfect complement to shaq.

the team just needed retooling and a new coach to become great



Besides. 3 rings out of 4 finals in 8 years is really good anyways. Especially considering they only had phil for 5 years

A prime phil/kobe/ shaq combo wins the title 8 or 9 times out of 10

Both could manage 28 to 30 ppg at the same time and be successful. Winning with low grade 3rd options against stacked allstar teams like sacramento or portland

[HOoopCityJones]

Any gap offensively in favor of Kobe over that time is made up by Wade playing considerably better defense most of the years in question. Like always...it remains a toss up as to who has been the best shooting guard in the NBA over the last 10 years when objectively looking at it.

No. Everyone knows its Kobe except a dumbass Dirk stan on ISH.


DWade's greatest individual accomplishments all came against your boy Dirk, including 2011 if LBJ doesn't choke so what does that say about a not even Top 15 player like him?

Wade is like the literal definition of what people try to use against Kobe AND Lebron to excuse their success. He's never won anything without the most dominant player in the league and he's only done damage in the weakest conference for the last 10 years and counting. I laugh whenever you try to push this "Not much distance between Wade and Kobe" agenda.


It's like saying Dirk is better than KG JUST because he's the better shooter and they have the same amount of rings. That's not how shit works, well, maybe in your head, but no.

[SouBeachTalents]

No. Everyone knows its Kobe except a dumbass Dirk stan on ISH.


DWade's greatest individual accomplishments all came against your boy Dirk, including 2011 if LBJ doesn't choke so what does that say about a not even Top 15 player like him?

Wade is like the literal definition of what people try to use against Kobe AND Lebron to excuse their success. He's never won anything without the most dominant player in the league and he's only done damage in the weakest conference for the last 10 years and counting. I laugh whenever you try to push this "Not much distance between Wade and Kobe" agenda.


It's like saying Dirk is better than KG JUST because he's the better shooter and they have the same amount of rings. That's not how shit works, well, maybe in your head, but no.

Shaq was not the most dominant player in the league in '06

[DMAVS41]

No. Everyone knows its Kobe except a dumbass Dirk stan on ISH.


DWade's greatest individual accomplishments came all against your boy Dirk, so what does that say about a not even Top 15 player like him?

Wade is like the literal definition of what people try to use against Kobe AND Lebron to excuse their success. He's never won anything without the most dominant player in the league and he's only done damage in the weakest conference for the last 10 years and counting. I laugh whenever you try to push this "Not much distance between Wade and Kobe" agenda.


It's like saying Dirk is better than KG JUST because he's the better shooter and they have the same amount of rings. That's not how shit works, well, maybe in your head, but no.

I'm not talking about team accomplishments. Which, by the way, Wade has more titles in the time frame I'm talking about you moron.

Why has Kobe been the better player since 04 or 05? They've both now had about the same amount of injuries / missed time. They've played virtually the exact amount of games regular season and playoffs since 04 as well.

Wade's made 5 finals and has 3 titles.
Kobe's made 4 finals and has 2 titles.

According to you moronic Kobe stans...that should give Wade a huge edge. He's made more finals and won more titles since Wade entered the league. Why doesn't that matter now to you? And shit...Kobe's never had one of his teammates cost him a title like Lebron did to Wade in 11. In fact, it was Kobe costing his teammates a title in 04 with one of the worst finals in NBA history.

Again...please explain why these things don't matter....but matter when Kobe has more of them.

What is the big difference? That Kobe shot jacks his way to like 3 to 4 more points per game on slightly worse efficiency while playing demonstrably worse defense?

No...there is no real difference between the two. The only year, when right, there was a huge difference since Wade entered the league was when Wade was a rookie.

After that...it's been a total toss up overall. Tell me why Kobe has been better demonstrably better please...

[MastaKilla]

I'm not talking about team accomplishments. Which, by the way, Wade has more titles in the time frame I'm talking about you moron.

Why has Kobe been the better player since 04 or 05? They've both now had about the same amount of injuries / missed time. They've played virtually the exact amount of games regular season and playoffs since 04 as well.

Wade's made 5 finals and has 3 titles.
Kobe's made 4 finals and has 2 titles.

According to you moronic Kobe stans...that should give Wade a huge edge. He's made more finals and won more titles since Wade entered the league. Why doesn't that matter now to you? And shit...Kobe's never had one of his teammates cost him a title like Lebron did to Wade in 11. In fact, it was Kobe costing his teammates a title in 04 with one of the worst finals in NBA history.

Again...please explain why these things don't matter....but matter when Kobe has more of them.

What is the big difference? That Kobe shot jacks his way to like 3 to 4 more points per game on slightly worse efficiency while playing demonstrably worse defense?

No...there is no real difference between the two. The only year, when right, there was a huge difference since Wade entered the league was when Wade was a rookie.

After that...it's been a total toss up overall. Tell me why Kobe has been better demonstrably better please...

All NBA 1st team since 05..

Kobe: 9

Wade: 2

All NBA defense 1st team since 05:

Kobe: 6

Wade: 2

Historic record breaking seasons in 06 & 07. B2B FMVPs in 09 & 10, scored 81 points in a game. Beat the Dallas Mavericks by himself. Made 3 straight finals as the best player on his team.

averaged 30/6/6 while going to 3 straight finals and winning 2 FMVP. Averaged 30+/5+/5+ in the 09 finals (only player since Jordan)

[DMAVS41]

All NBA 1st team since 05..

Kobe: 9

Wade: 2

All NBA defense 1st team since 05:

Kobe: 6

Wade: 2

Historic record breaking seasons in 06 & 07. B2B FMVPs in 09 & 10, scored 81 points in a game. Beat the Dallas Mavericks by himself. Made 3 straight finals as the best player on his team.


averaged 30/6/6 while going to 3 straight finals and winning 2 FMVP. Averaged 30+/5+/5+ in the 09 finals (only player since Jordan)


No substance behind those all nba and all d awards. Wade has been demonstrably better defensively overall and it's not close.

That is the equivalent of me saying Wade is better because he's made more finals in that span. Both are retarded.

As for the other stuff....Wade has had his own share of impressive feats as well like the 06 finals and his absurdly good 30/8/5 2009 season.

[MastaKilla]

No substance behind those all nba and all d awards. Wade has been demonstrably better defensively overall and it's not close.

That is the equivalent of me saying Wade is better because he's made more finals in that span. Both are retarded.

As for the other stuff....Wade has had his own share of impressive feats as well like the 06 finals and his absurdly good 30/8/5 2009 season.

there are 2 guard spots.. Kobe isn't taking both..

and if Kobe is the guy keeping Wade from the first team all d awards then he should have plenty of 2nd team all d awards right? So how come he only has 3? 05,06 and 11. So who's keeping Wade off the all nba 2nd team all those years...

[mehyaM24]

bumppp

looks like most are going with wade. i think only 2 posters went with kobe - they were kobe fans.

will tally up the vote if need be.

[f0und]

there are 2 guard spots.. Kobe isn't taking both..

and if Kobe is the guy keeping Wade from the first team all d awards then he should have plenty of 2nd team all d awards right? So how come he only has 3? 05,06 and 11. So who's keeping Wade off the all nba 2nd team all those years...

its not just about kobe taking wade's defensive spots. its about kobe not deserving several of them and just getting it on rep. and star power. heck, one year he got the spot over defensive specialist tony allen. someone who's known to play lockdown defense the entire game, every game.

[HOoopCityJones]

there are 2 guard spots.. Kobe isn't taking both..

and if Kobe is the guy keeping Wade from the first team all d awards then he should have plenty of 2nd team all d awards right? So how come he only has 3? 05,06 and 11. So who's keeping Wade off the all nba 2nd team all those years...

:applause: Preach.

[HOoopCityJones]

All NBA 1st team since 05..

Kobe: 9

Wade: 2

All NBA defense 1st team since 05:

Kobe: 6

Wade: 2

Historic record breaking seasons in 06 & 07. B2B FMVPs in 09 & 10, scored 81 points in a game. Beat the Dallas Mavericks by himself. Made 3 straight finals as the best player on his team.

averaged 30/6/6 while going to 3 straight finals and winning 2 FMVP. Averaged 30+/5+/5+ in the 09 finals (only player since Jordan)


Ether. Dat shit Hot.:bowdown:

[TheNaturalWR]

People who bring up All-NBA teams as a knock against Wade should really just stop. The disrespect is just insane. In 2008-09 one of the greatest seasons of all time and probably the greatest SG non-MJ season, he received less votes for the first team than Kobe. His 200+ steals and 100+ blocks along with elite on-ball defense only got him a second team.Despite, being CLEARLY the better player. And in 2011, 26/6/5 on 50% FG gets him a SECOND team. Again, despite being CLEARLY better than Kobe AND Rose. Just stop.

[mehyaM24]

People who bring up All-NBA teams as a knock against Wade should really just stop. The disrespect is just insane. In 2008-09 one of the greatest seasons of all time and probably the greatest SG non-MJ season, he received less votes for the first team than Kobe. His 200+ steals and 100+ blocks along with elite on-ball defense only got him a second team.Despite, being CLEARLY the better player. And in 2011, 26/6/5 on 50% FG gets him a SECOND team. Again, despite being CLEARLY better than Kobe AND Rose. Just stop.
good post brah. how many titles does rookie wade win with the 98-04 lakers, IYO?

[Mass Debator]

there are 2 guard spots.. Kobe isn't taking both..

and if Kobe is the guy keeping Wade from the first team all d awards then he should have plenty of 2nd team all d awards right? So how come he only has 3? 05,06 and 11. So who's keeping Wade off the all nba 2nd team all those years...
Wade was actually only a first-teamer twice.

04 - Rookie
05 - MVP Nash and Iverson (Wade 2nd, Kobe 3rd)
06 - MVP Nash and Kobe (2nd but arguably the best player that year)
07 - Injured, didn't play enough games 27/8/5 (3rd)
08 - Same as above (0)
09 - Arguably best season for a guard since Jordan (1st)
10 - 1st team
11 - MVP Derrick Rose (Could've been either Wade or Kobe and Wade was considered top 3 that year)
12-14 - Injury-riddled seasons

So basically, MVPs took three of his spots. I'm not complaining but to me Wade was a better individual player and was just as deserving. And in 11, Wade should've gotten the nod over Kobe but this whole Lebron teammate thing kind of screwed him over. If it weren't for injuries, Wade could've been a 7x All-NBA First Team player from 05-11. Unfortunately, that's just a what if kind of deal, but everyone knows Wade was a top 3 guard in impact probably his whole career (excluding rookie year).

[BasedTom]

wade living rent free

[DMAVS41]

there are 2 guard spots.. Kobe isn't taking both..

and if Kobe is the guy keeping Wade from the first team all d awards then he should have plenty of 2nd team all d awards right? So how come he only has 3? 05,06 and 11. So who's keeping Wade off the all nba 2nd team all those years...

Who said Kobe took Wade's spot. I don't think Wade was one of the two best guards on defense many of those years either.

He was just a demonstrably better defender than Kobe by any measure you can come up with most years.

Using such a subjective award like all defense just isn't a very good argument. I'm not interested in popular opinion...I'm interested in which player was actually better defensively in this example.

And I'm still confused as to your argument that Kobe was better defensively since Wade came into the league.


All I see between the two since 04 is Kobe better some years, Wade better some years.....injury issues for both (roughly the same number of games played between the two)...championships and finals and great play. Poor play in big moments at times...

I'd give Kobe the slight edge on offense and Wade a pretty real edge on defense....because defense doesn't matter as much...I think it's pretty even.

Personally I'd rather have Wade on both ends, but I think it's fair to say Kobe's been better offensively the way most people will look at this.