Curry this season so far vs 2010-2011 Rose

[Im Still Ballin]

Lets say the Warriors win 60 games, Currys stats stay the same

Who had the better season?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Curry is better...Considerably.

[Heavincent]

Steph Curry is shooting 49% on the year while averaging eight 3 pt attempts per game...absolutely mind blowing efficiency.

[KingPush]

If you think Rose is better then you just went full Poido.



Never go full Poido

[roffie]

curry is better.. and so is his overall game

[ThatCoolKid]

Rose was the better defender. I give Curry the slight edge, but people aren't giving Rose enough credit. It's a close call.

[SyRyanYang]

Rose was the better defender. I give Curry the slight edge, but people aren't giving Rose enough credit. It's a close call.

Oh please.

You'd have a case if it was CP3, Russ or Rondo, but Rose? :lol

[eeeeeebro]

Curry is on his own level right now he has the perfect jump shot and he has point guard agility, but to be fair rose mvp season he was a beast with a deadly jump shot. Results are curry is on a different lvl right now than any point guard of all time. hes on durant lvl right now.

[JohnFreeman]

But which do you trust in the playoffs?

[andremiller07]

The things Curry does on the floor and how he dominates without relying on athletic ability is just mind blowing, kid is such a naturally talented freak it's not even fair.

[eeeeeebro]

the reason rose won his MVP was because when bulls played teams with good players rose out played them and he would shut down people like CP3 westbrook. Rose would hold oponent point guards to low scoring while scoring 25+ per game on them. it was a defense / offense thing. I do not know if curry is shutting his pg opponents down.

[Bobcats2013]

But which do you trust in the playoffs?

Curry has shown he's more than trust worthy in the playoffs. He's just had bad luck with injuries in both post seasons.

[dabigbaws]

Reggie Jackson just outplayed curry :lol :lol :lol

[nathanjizzle]

it all depends on how he does against elite competition if you ask me. if he can put up those numbers throughout the season and still put up elite numbers against elite teams then i can easily say this year is better than roses.

but keep in mind, rose produced 28.5 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the league that year while leading the bulls to a winning record against elite competition.

[Phenith]

it all depends on how he does against elite competition if you ask me. if he can put up those numbers throughout the season and still put up elite numbers against elite teams then i can easily say this year is better than roses.

but keep in mind, rose produced 28.5 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the league that year while leading the bulls to a winning record against elite competition.

But keep in mind, that was 3 years ago and Rose has hardly played basketball since then.

[DMAVS41]

Curry is better...Considerably.

This.

Curry's season last year was better as well.

The difference in the Warriors season last year and the Bulls season in 11 was help.

While both players were on the court:

Warriors +9.2
Bulls +8.8

Virtually the same.

While both players were on the bench:

Warriors -5.9
Bulls +6.1

That was the difference....obvious to anyone other than the moronic Rose stans.

Bulls were 12 points better than the Warriors when both players weren't on the court.

You give Curry a plus 6.1 bench last year and the Warriors would have won around 60 games.

[tontoz]

Curry's current numbers are unreachable by Rose. His TS is over 8% better than Rose's MVP season and he is scoring at a higher rate.

GS is 2nd in defensive efficiency so Curry isn't hurting them too much on that end.

[DMAVS41]

Curry's current numbers are unreachable by Rose. His TS is over 8% better than Rose's MVP season and he is scoring at a higher rate.

GS is 2nd in defensive efficiency so Curry isn't hurting them too much on that end.

Curry isn't hurting them at all actually....the defense is way better with him on the court. Granted, Curry isn't the reason for that, but he's in no way hurting the defense.

Defense with Curry? 94.1
Defense without Curry? 103.4

Compare that to Rose in 11.

Defense with Rose? 102.2
Defense without Rose? 94.8

FYI...lower number is better for defense.

It's too early to really compare, but so far Curry's season is on a whole other level than Rose's 11.

[nathanjizzle]

But keep in mind, that was 3 years ago and Rose has hardly played basketball since then.

read the title.

[ImKobe]

Curry isn't hurting them at all actually....the defense is way better with him on the court. Granted, Curry isn't the reason for that, but he's in no way hurting the defense.

Defense with Curry? 94.1
Defense without Curry? 103.4

Compare that to Rose in 11.

Defense with Rose? 102.2
Defense without Rose? 94.8

FYI...lower number is better for defense.

It's too early to really compare, but so far Curry's season is on a whole other level than Rose's 11.

It's better to compare their DRTG to the team's overall DRTG, the defense "without player x" is basically showing how effective the 2nd unit is..

GSW is just stacked from top to bottom. Granted, Rose is no stopper himself, but what I'm saying is that neither should be praised for their defense.

Curry's been better on offense, that should answer the question, tbh.

[tontoz]

Curry isn't hurting them at all actually....the defense is way better with him on the court. Granted, Curry isn't the reason for that, but he's in no way hurting the defense.

Defense with Curry? 94.1
Defense without Curry? 103.4

Compare that to Rose in 11.

Defense with Rose? 102.2
Defense without Rose? 94.8

FYI...lower number is better for defense.

It's too early to really compare, but so far Curry's season is on a whole other level than Rose's 11.


I agree that Curry's current season is on a different level from anything Rose has done. However it is a little early to be using +/- stats. That works better on large sample sizes.

GS is 2nd in defensive efficiency. In the end that is what really matters.

Individual DRTG is pretty much a worthless stat. Team DRTG is fine though.

[nathanjizzle]

Defense with Curry? 94.1
Defense without Curry? 103.4

Compare that to Rose in 11.

Defense with Rose? 102.2
Defense without Rose? 94.8

.

you need to get over those stats. theirs 12-14 other players that factor into that and their is no base stat to compare it too. for example, you claim curry isnt hurting his team because when he is in the game the teams defense is better than when hes out, whos to say if you replaced curry with an average point gaurd defender that the stat would even be less than 94.1, thus making curry a detriment to the team defense. Thats why your stats dont mean shit, their is no base comparison. Your stats are for elementary thinking. But thats okay, i dont expect much from someone that thinks monta ellis is better than derrick rose.

[DMAVS41]

I agree that Curry's current season is on a different level from anything Rose has done. However it is a little early to be using +/- stats. That works better on large sample sizes.

GS is 2nd in defensive efficiency. In the end that is what really matters.

For I'm Kobe: Individual DRTG is pretty much a worthless stat. Team DRTG is fine though.

Hence why I said "it's too early to really compare"

But this thread is Curry this season so far. And "so far"...it's not close.

[Genaro]

Curry and it's not even close.

[DMAVS41]

you need to get over those stats. theirs 12-14 other players that factor into that and their is no base stat to compare it too. for example, you claim curry isnt hurting his team because when he is in the game the teams defense is better than when hes out, whos to say if you replaced curry with an average point gaurd defender that the stat would even be less than 94.1, thus making curry a detriment to the team defense. Thats why your stats dont mean shit, their is no base comparison. Your stats are for elementary thinking. But thats okay, i dont expect much from someone that thinks monta ellis is better than derrick rose.


Well, when Rose was replaced by CJ Watson the defense got better.

Also, I specifically said I don't credit Curry with that. I was just responding to the notion that Curry is possibly hurting the defense so far. He's absolutely not. How much or how little he's improving it over the average guard is a totally different debate and I don't think we have enough information yet to make that claim.

But so far Curry is absolutely not "hurting" the Warriors defense.


I love how you say "your stats" like I made them up. Simply counting the point differential when a player is on or off the court over an entire season makes sense when making some of the idiotic claims you and fellow Rose stans make.

This notion that Rose does something to help his team have a dominant bench when he's not on the court needs to stop.

Sorry...it's just a fact that the Bulls straight up raped teams when Rose went to the bench in 11. Rose isn't on the court...he's on the bench. You don't credit him for that...that has nothing to with him. Especially when it's not like Thibs staggered his minutes a ton like Carlisle does with Dirk where he plays Dirk with the 2nd unit a lot like he did last year.

You just have to understand how important it is for a star player to go to the bench...and come back in and know the lead will grow or the deficit will be cut...Rose had that luxury to the tune of 6 points per 100 possessions. Meanwhile, Curry goes to the bench and his team gets outscored by 6...a 12 point difference.

That explains everything actually.

But I don't expect someone propping the most bitch made player of all time to understand this.

[Mass Debator]

Idk but just on better season? Probably, but thinking about it as a defender, I'd probably fear guarding Rose more even though Curry is crazy too.

[eeeeeebro]

This.

Curry's season last year was better as well.

The difference in the Warriors season last year and the Bulls season in 11 was help.

While both players were on the court:

Warriors +9.2
Bulls +8.8

Virtually the same.

While both players were on the bench:

Warriors -5.9
Bulls +6.1

That was the difference....obvious to anyone other than the moronic Rose stans.

Bulls were 12 points better than the Warriors when both players weren't on the court.

You give Curry a plus 6.1 bench last year and the Warriors would have won around 60 games.

ROSE faced every team in the league and was Best player in all the games with good players. Thats not a stat its watching games. Rose would shut down point guards like CP3 westbrook.

[nathanjizzle]

This.

Curry's season last year was better as well.


roses 2011 regular season vs curry's 2014 regular season
rose 25 points 7.7 assists
curry 24 points 8.5 assists


against top 8 teams in the league
rose 26.9 points 6.7 12-6
curry 24.8 points 8.5 assists 11-12

clutch stats per 48
rose 40% 47.8 points 75% win
curry 41% 36.9 points 55.9% win

why do you believe that curry was the better player? i mean you can be moderate with your opinion and say curry was close, but saying hes better is just not true nor are there any real statistics to prove it. and keep in mind, GS is an offensive oriented team, so natural curry would have an advantage is scoring and assists.

and comparing a player that is 22 to a 26 year old is already unfair but thats different argument.

[tontoz]

why do you believe that curry was the better player? .


Maybe because Curry's TS% was 6% higher.

[DMAVS41]

roses 2011 regular season vs curry's 2014 regular season
rose 25 points 7.7 assists
curry 24 points 8.5 assists


against top 8 teams in the league
rose 26.9 points 6.7 12-6
curry 24.8 points 8.5 assists 11-12

clutch stats per 48
rose 40% 47.8 points 75% win
curry 41% 36.9 points 55.9% win

why do you believe that curry was the better player? i mean you can be moderate with your opinion and say curry was close, but saying hes better is just not true nor are there any real statistics to prove it. and keep in mind, GS is an offensive oriented team, so natural curry would have an advantage is scoring and assists.

and comparing a player that is 22 to a 26 year old is already unfair but thats different argument.

lets start with the first thing...and at least you called it a different argument. we aren't grading on a curve...Rose does not get extra points for being younger.

We are simply comparing players...it doesn't matter if one is 50 or one is 25. Please get that through your head.

By all means....start a thread talking about how good Rose was for his age. He was...totally agree.

Now....for the other stuff.

1. Nobody gives a **** about this arbitrary top 8 teams in the league thing. It has to stop. It's just so arbitrary...just means nothing to me. Rose's shit play in the playoffs carries far more weight...sorry.

2. Curry's far better scoring efficiency trumps any of the other stuff for me...quite easily I might add. Curry was able to score at 61% TS. Rose was at 55% TS...big gap there.

3. While Curry's sample in the playoffs is smaller at only 7 games...he was better. 23/8/4 60% TS vs 27/8/4 50% TS...give me Curry pretty easily. Especially when Rose didn't play anyone good until the conference finals anyway...and he was dreadful. 23/4/7 44% TS...not setting the bar very high. Not enough is made of this series for Rose if we aren't grading on a curve. This series was just horrid...way worse than Dirk's 07 series for example. In large part because the Bulls actually had chances to win each game despite Rose's shit play. At least with Dirk we were getting blown out and it was clear the Warriors just had our number. But my point is that Rose's series was just like two levels worse. Just horrid...shit play combined with choking at the ft line...falling apart late in close games. Again...you can't ignore that. In the 5 biggest games of the year....Rose was absolutely dreadful. Not setting the bar high at all.

4. The clutch stuff. Curry shot 41/28/100 vs Rose shot 40/20/89. Rose turned it over more as well. Rose was clearly less efficient here. Now, Rose did get more rebounds and assists, but I'm not seeing a huge difference here.

5. The difference was obviously the help. Rose had way more help and played in a far worse conference. That is where those differentials really come into play. Give Curry a plus 6 points per 100 bench and put the Warriors in the East and you'd get 60 plus wins as well. Virtually everything supports this.

That is what this comes down to as always...you Rose fans under-rated Rose's help just so god damn much in 11. They were loaded. Especially that bench defensively...they came in and shut teams down...they outscored them by a pretty good margin while also wearing teams out.

It's not hard. It's simple math. Scoring differential really matters. The difference between -6 and +6 is large...denying that is silly. It's like 15 wins huge...

[Papaya Petee]

Never have I seen so many people harp on a 24\8\5 season on average efficiency as people have with Roses "MVP" season.

Steph Curry is better this season by a decent amount.

[DMAVS41]

Never have I seen so many people harp on a 24\8\5 season on average efficiency as people have with Roses "MVP" season.

Steph Curry is better this season by a decent amount.


I know...

Gary Payton had a 24/7/9 season and finished 6th in MVP voting. The next year he had a 23/5/8 season and didn't finish in the top 15 in MVP voting. And he played better defense...even at that age....than Rose ever has.

[tpols]

lets start with the first thing...and at least you called it a different argument. we aren't grading on a curve...Rose does not get extra points for being younger.

We are simply comparing players...it doesn't matter if one is 50 or one is 25. Please get that through your head.

By all means....start a thread talking about how good Rose was for his age. He was...totally agree.

Now....for the other stuff.

1. Nobody gives a **** about this arbitrary top 8 teams in the league thing. It has to stop. It's just so arbitrary...just means nothing to me. Rose's shit play in the playoffs carries far more weight...sorry.

2. Curry's far better scoring efficiency trumps any of the other stuff for me...quite easily I might add. Curry was able to score at 61% TS. Rose was at 55% TS...big gap there.

3. While Curry's sample in the playoffs is smaller at only 7 games...he was better. 23/8/4 60% TS vs 27/8/4 50% TS...give me Curry pretty easily. Especially when Rose didn't play anyone good until the conference finals anyway...and he was dreadful. 23/4/7 44% TS...not setting the bar very high.

4. The clutch stuff. Curry shot 41/28/100 vs Rose shot 40/20/89. Rose turned it over more as well. Rose was clearly less efficient here. Now, Rose did get more rebounds and assists, but I'm not seeing a huge difference here.

5. The difference was obviously the help. Rose had way more help and played in a far worse conference. That is where those differentials really come into play. Give Curry a plus 6 points per 100 bench and put the Warriors in the East and you'd get 60 plus wins as well. Virtually everything supports this.

1. How a player plays against the best superstars and t he is teams certainly should hold some weight. You stress the importance of beating good teams yourself with your emphasis on playoff play.

Roses playoffs don't really matter in this comparison either since curry as yet to play in them yet this year.

2. Curry is playing on a very good offensive team. They're loaded with creative talent. Klay has an argument for best sg in the league.. Rose had Keith Bogans starting at sg. Curry has Barnes who can create h is own shot/do some isoing.. Deng thrives off others play and has little iso ability at all. Bogut and David Lee are better offensive players than anyone on those Bulls front court. This affects how a star gets numbers.

It's much easier to obtain higher efficiency with great offensive help. Rose had elite defensive help.. Way better than curry there. But his offensive help was worse. Just different circumstances.


I do think curry is a little better than rose but he still has to finish the year strong.

[DMAVS41]

1. How a player plays against the best superstars and t he is teams certainly should hold some weight. You stress the importance of beating good teams yourself with your emphasis on playoff play.

Roses playoffs don't really matter in this comparison either since curry as yet to play in them yet this year.

2. Curry is playing on a very good offensive team. They're loaded with creative talent. Klay has an argument for best sg in the league.. Rose had Keith Bogans starting at sg. Curry has Barnes who can create h is own shot/do some isoing.. Deng thrives off others play and has little iso ability at all. Bogut and David Lee are better offensive players than anyone on those Bulls front court. This affects how a star gets numbers.

It's much easier to obtain higher efficiency with great offensive help. Rose had elite defensive help.. Way better than curry there. But his offensive help was worse. Just different circumstances.


I do think curry is a little better than rose but he still has to finish the year strong.


He was talking about 14 Curry when I said that...so playoffs absolutely do matter.

Also, the playoffs are the big games. These arbitrary regular season games don't mean even close to the same.

Also, it's very difficult because, again having a +6 point differential from the bench.

Serious question. How many wins do you think the 14 Warriors get if they replaced the 11 Bulls in the East...and they had a plus 6 bench rather than a minus 6 bench?

I mean...they won 51 in just a much much much harder conference. Give them far easier teams to play for nearly half the year and give them a 12 point better bench per 100? Honestly 65 games is pretty reasonable.


I don't think Curry's efficiency is very dependent on on his help actually. In a lot of cases what you say is true, but I actually think both Rose and Curry are kind of who they are here. Just like Kobe. You give Kobe shit help and he's gonna be right in the same range efficiency wise when he was great help.

The only thing that would change the efficiency of Rose is if he just shot a lot less. But if shot a lot less...his scoring would go way down and he'd be a different player.

So I actually don't think that argument holds much weight here.

Especially when the Warriors didn't even have a very good offense last year under Mark Jackson. In fact, in relation to the league...the 11 Bulls actually had a better offense than the 14 Warriors. Again...I really think people under-rate those 11 Bulls...

[Budadiiii]

Curry and it isn't close. And that's the best Rose could have ever played.. dude hit his peak at age 22.

He lacks the intelligence and know-how that it takes to be a consistently good player. Couple that with his fragile body and mind and you get a guy who is quitting during games to go eat skittles.

Curry shits on Rose. Rose in 2010 wasn't even a top 10 player. That team won games with defense, rebounding, and toughness.

[tontoz]

12. Curry is playing on a very good offensive team. They're loaded with creative talent. Klay has an argument for best sg in the league.. Rose had Keith Bogans starting at sg. Curry has Barnes who can create h is own shot/do some isoing.. Deng thrives off others play and has little iso ability at all. Bogut and David Lee are better offensive players than anyone on those Bulls front court. This affects how a star gets numbers.

It's much easier to obtain higher efficiency with great offensive help. Rose had elite defensive help.. Way better than curry there. But his offensive help was worse. Just different circumstances.


I do think curry is a little better than rose but he still has to finish the year strong.


Huh? Barnes has minimal iso ability which is why he was moved into the starting lineup. He needs others to create for him.

Klay was tied for 21st in PER among 2s last year.

And Curry's primary advantage over other players is his ability to shoot 3s accurately off the dribble. Teamates have little relevance for him.

[tpols]

He was talking about 14 Curry when I said that...so playoffs absolutely do matter.

Also, the playoffs are the big games. These arbitrary regular season games don't mean even close to the same.

Also, it's very difficult because, again having a +6 point differential from the bench.

Serious question. How many wins do you think the 14 Warriors get if they replaced the 11 Bulls in the East...and they had a plus 6 bench rather than a minus 6 bench?

I mean...they won 51 in just a much much much harder conference. Give them far easier teams to play for nearly half the year and give them a 12 point better bench per 100? Honestly 65 games is pretty reasonable.


I don't think Curry's efficiency is very dependent on on his help actually. In a lot of cases what you say is true, but I actually think both Rose and Curry are kind of who they are here. Just like Kobe. You give Kobe shit help and he's gonna be right in the same range efficiency wise when he was great help.

The only thing that would change the efficiency of Rose is if he just shot a lot less. But if shot a lot less...his scoring would go way down and he'd be a different player.

So I actually don't think that argument holds much weight here.

Especially when the Warriors didn't even have a very good offense last year under Mark Jackson. In fact, in relation to the league...the 11 Bulls actually had a better offense than the 14 Warriors. Again...I really think people under-rate those 11 Bulls...

I think we just got mixed up. I was going off what the OP said curry so far this season(like in the title).

As far as last year's playoffs.. Curry never faced a perimeter defense on 2011 Miami level. A trapping perimeter oriented defense with Rose on an island. Curry has more offensive help to relieve pressure plus the clippers were never as good defensively as the heat were. This affects the numbers heavily IMO.

There's nobody on the 11 Bulls better offensively than klay Thompson outside of rose.. I'd rank Barnes bogut and Lee over the next best Chicago player as well. We just are on opposite sides here with this Chicago help

They've been winning 50 games a year on pure defense. The bulls offense last season with noah, boozer, Taj, Jimmy Butler, around the same level of offensive help rose had in 2011, finished as the 28th ranked offense.

They have a horrible offense without rose. This year Pau has obviously helped with that tremendously combined with the growth of Butler. But in previous years their offense was very limited. When they win without rose they do it with pure defensive and rebounding energy and effort. It's not with their offense.

[tpols]

Huh? Barnes has minimal iso ability which is why he was moved into the starting lineup. He needs others to create for him.

Klay was tied for 21st in PER among 2s last year.

And Curry's primary advantage over other players is his ability to shoot 3s accurately off the dribble. Teamates have little relevance for him.

Idk.. When I've seen Barnes play he seemed to get looks on the block backing guys down.. Slashing through the lane. He certainly looked to have a better iso back down game than Iggy or Deng at sf.

[Optimus Prime]

Curry can score from any where at any time. It is so much fun to watch.

Rose is the worst MVP in league history. We all know this.

:kobe:

[tontoz]

Idk.. When I've seen Barnes play he seemed to get looks on the block backing guys down.. Slashing through the lane. He certainly looked to have a better iso back down game than Iggy or Deng at sf.

Watching Barnes try to create off the dribble can be painful. Other than straight line drives he cant do much.

Not to many 3s are going to be posting up in general. You need spacing for post ups to be effective and unless you have bigs who can shoot it isn't going to work well.

[tpols]

Watching Barnes try to create off the dribble can be painful. Other than straight line drives he cant do much.

Not to many 3s are going to be posting up in general. You need spacing for post ups to be effective and unless you have bigs who can shoot it isn't going to work well.

I mean we watch guys like Joe Johnson who is Barnes same size.. Iso back down on the high block with success all the time. Taking advantage of mismatches. I can only imagine if the nets had curry and klay beside him. He would have tons of space or somebody is getting a three.

[r0drig0lac]

PG is the best today (video mode game in a few moments)
less when facing Tony Parker and Danny Green

[tontoz]

I mean we watch guys like Joe Johnson who is Barnes same size.. Iso back down on the high block with success all the time. Taking advantage of mismatches. I can only imagine if the nets had curry and klay beside him. He would have tons of space or somebody is getting a three.

Lopez and KG can shoot, clearing space for JJ. Bogut can't shoot a lick. His man can ignore him when he is away from the basket.

If your bigs cant shoot the lane will be clogged no matter who your guards are.

[DMAVS41]

I think we just got mixed up. I was going off what the OP said curry so far this season(like in the title).

As far as last year's playoffs.. Curry never faced a perimeter defense on 2011 Miami level. A trapping perimeter oriented defense with Rose on an island. Curry has more offensive help to relieve pressure plus the clippers were never as good defensively as the heat were. This affects the numbers heavily IMO.

There's nobody on the 11 Bulls better offensively than klay Thompson outside of rose.. I'd rank Barnes bogut and Lee over the next best Chicago player as well. We just are on opposite sides here with this Chicago help

They've been winning 50 games a year on pure defense. The bulls offense last season with noah, boozer, Taj, Jimmy Butler, around the same level of offensive help rose had in 2011, finished as the 28th ranked offense.

They have a horrible offense without rose. This year Pau has obviously helped with that tremendously combined with the growth of Butler. But in previous years their offense was very limited. When they win without rose they do it with pure defensive and rebounding energy and effort. It's not with their offense.


It shouldn't be about what they are without Rose...I don't think that makes a lot of sense to be honest. Also, you are getting pretty far removed using last year as an example. I mean...we are talking about the 2011 Bulls here. I think the 12 or 13 Bulls would be far better comparisons...and even then I don't love it because it's not the same team.

Do you really think Rose is a better offensive player than Curry? Because if we follow your logic through and Rose just had way worse offensive help...then he must be a demonstrably better offensive player than Curry to get his team to have a better offense than Curry.

Do you really think that?

The Warriors had the 12th best offense last year. In 2011, the Bulls had the 11th best offense.

Either you are wrong about how these teams fit around Curry and Rose respectively on offense...or Rose is just clearly better offensively than Curry.

Let me know which one you think it is so we can move forward.



Also, what do you then have to say about Rose's numbers the previous rounds...where he was a 52% TS player? I mean...are the Pacers and Hawks (two average defensive teams in 11) also harder than the Clippers? In what reality is Rose going to shoot above about like 53% TS in a playoff series in 2011? He played 3 series and was at that or much worse in all of them.

And what does it say about his team strength that the following can happen:

7/23 38% TS down 3 with 2 minutes left
8/19 49% TS down 4 with 7 minutes left
8/27 38% TS goes to OT
9/29 35% TS up 5 going into the 4th (loses by 3)

[DMAVS41]

Also tpols.

Could you answer my question?

How many wins do you think the 14 Warriors get in the 11East if they replace the Bulls in the conference....and had a plus 6 bench differential.

Remember, the 14 Warriors were minus 6 without Curry in the game.

They won 51 in one of the strongest conferences we've seen in some time. How many do they win?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Oh please.

You'd have a case if it was CP3, Russ or Rondo, but Rose? :lol
rondo????:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

And what does it say about his team strength that the following can happen:

7/23 38% TS down 3 with 2 minutes left
8/19 49% TS down 4 with 7 minutes left
8/27 38% TS goes to OT
9/29 35% TS up 5 going into the 4th (loses by 3)

It shows that Chicago had a great enough defensive efficiency and likely higher number of possessions due to better rebounding to offset their poor shooting. Doesn't tell us anything about the strength of roses offensive help.

[tpols]

Also tpols.

Could you answer my question?

How many wins do you think the 14 Warriors get in the 11East if they replace the Bulls in the conference....and had a plus 6 bench differential.

Remember, the 14 Warriors were minus 6 without Curry in the game.

They won 51 in one of the strongest conferences we've seen in some time. How many do they win?

Maybe in the mid/low 60s..

But if you wanna compare to 11 rose you'd have to have Currys seconds best player miss a lot of time like noah did that year.

So if you account for that he'd lead his team just about as far as rose did.. Maybe a little less with his main guys missing time

[DMAVS41]

Maybe in the mid 60s..

But if you wanna compare to 11 rose you'd have to have Currys seconds best player miss a lot of time like noah did that year.

So if you account for that he'd lead his team just about as far as rose did..

And what about Rose vs Curry offensively?

What is your stance...that Rose is far better than Curry? Because I'm having trouble how you can say Curry had way more offensive help...but the Bulls actually had the better offense. If anyone has an advantage on rebounding and defense it's Rose....so I'm having trouble understanding how you said you'd take Curry slightly over Rose.

You keep claiming that Rose had far worse offensive help...yet his team had a better offense. Not only in relation to the leagues they played in, but also just on straight ortg as well. Seems like those conflict...

So please clear that up.


Also, Lee, Iggy, and Bogut missed quite a bit of time as well...and that Warriors team wasn't all that deep. Blake and O'neal weren't there for even half the year iirc.

[tpols]

And what about Rose vs Curry offensively?

What is your stance...that Rose is far better than Curry? Because I'm having trouble how you can say Curry had way more offensive help...but the Bulls actually had the better offense.

So please clear that up.
l think 2011 rose was a greater player than steph curry last year.. Overall. You don't like roses defense but I feel he brings a lot more toughness on that end than curry does.. Curry is improving on that this year though and is really starting to blow up so I feel he will pass peak rose level this season.

[DMAVS41]

l think 2011 rose was a greater player than steph curry last year.. Overall. You don't like roses defense but I feel he brings a lot more toughness on that end than curry does.. Especially in his last few years. Curry is improving this year though and is really starting to blow up so I feel he will pass peak rose level this season.

So you think Rose is a better offensive player than Curry? I'm not talking defense. I'm trying to figure out your ideas about offense.

[tpols]

So you think Rose is a better offensive player than Curry? I'm not talking defense. I'm trying to figure out your ideas about offense.

No but the difference in past few years curry and 2011 rose isn't that big. Rose lit up every top team that year.. The big games, his offensive performances on one man army offensive team. It's tough to see that in raw season averages. The difference is very small.. But like I said I'll take roses ability to make a big defensive play or take a tough assignment or get a tough rebound.

Curry will likely pass him this year peak for peak based on what we've seen so far.

[DMAVS41]

No but the difference in past few years curry and 2011 rose isn't that big. Rose lit up every top team that year.. The big games, his offensive performances on one man army offensive team. It's tough to see that in raw season averages. The difference is very small.. But like I said I'll take roses ability to make a big defensive play or take a tough assignment or get a tough rebound.

Curry will likely pass him this year peak for peak based on what we've seen so far.

But then I don't understand your comments about the help.

You keep saying Curry played with far better offensive help...and he turned that help into the 12th best offense.

If they are similar or you give a slight edge to Curry....why? Why, if Rose turned far worse help into a better offense?

You see my point? I don't think those make sense...

Either you are wrong about how each team fit around Curry / Rose...or you aren't really following your arguments through.

Not very logical to say Curry is slightly better offensively...then turn around and say...but Rose led a far worse offensive team to a better offense than Curry did.

[nathanjizzle]

No but the difference in past few years curry and 2011 rose isn't that big. Rose lit up every top team that year.. The big games, his offensive performances on one man army offensive team. It's tough to see that in raw season averages. The difference is very small.. But like I said I'll take roses ability to make a big defensive play or take a tough assignment or get a tough rebound.

Curry will likely pass him this year peak for peak based on what we've seen so far.

this is accurate.

[tpols]

The far better help offensively argument applied to you bringing up the playoffs. Playoff teams can single in on one guy far easier than playing random teams during the regular season.. Which is why rose dipped. He still wouldn't have gotten to Currys playoff efficiency because he's not half the shooter curry is.. But rose also collapsed defenses like no others. That probably created more opportunity for roses teammates than Curry did for his especially in the regular season when he was playing great.. Which led to the Bulls higher regular season offense.

But curry showed in the playoffs to be able to score really well.. His offense translated better. His team being more talented offensively definitely made his life easier like I've been saying but he still was > rose offensively in the playoffs. Not in the regular season though.

[DMAVS41]

The far better help offensively argument applied to you bringing up the playoffs. Playoff teams can single in on one guy far easier than playing random teams during the regular season.. Which is why rose dipped. He still wouldn't have gotten to Currys playoff efficiency because he's not half the shooter curry is.. But rose also collapsed defenses like no others. That probably created more opportunity for roses teammates than Curry did for his especially in the regular season when he was playing great.. Which led to the Bulls regular season offense.

But curry showed in the playoffs to be able to score really well.. His offense translated better. His team being more talented offensively definitely made his life easier like I've been saying but he still was > rose offensively in the playoffs. Not in the regular season though.

Okay....I'm still not following.

Which player had more offensive help the regular season. Curry in 11 or Rose in 14? And could you also try to quantify it a bit....because I'm still not following...you have kept saying there was a big difference in offensive help and I'm not sure why that would just randomly change in the playoffs.

But we'll ignore that issue for now.

Who had the better regular season offensive help...and by how much?


I'm not saying there is anything wrong with taking Rose over Curry offensively in the regular season only...I'm just confused as to how you are taking Curry when I've seen you say what you have about help.

The funny thing about this is that we both agree that Rose was better defensively, but the advanced stats say otherwise. And Rose actually graded out better on offense than Curry as well...

I'm skeptical of this though because I think rapm numbers can get a bit skewed by certain situations. I think Rose having an elite defense that good actually hurt his defensive rapm numbers a bit. I certainly don't think there is a big gap between Curry and Rose defensively like those rapm numbers suggest.

But I've seen you use rapm a lot....so just a heads up...

2011 Rose had a 3.2 rapm (offense and defense combined)
2014 Curry had a 4.3 rapm (offense and defense combined)

[tontoz]

In 2011-12 Chicago ranked 5th in offensive efficiency. Rose missed 27 of the 66 games. The Bulls finished with a 50-16 record.

[tpols]

Golden state had better offensive help.

Klay Thompson near 20ppg of elite shooting/scoring.
David Lee and bogut for 68 games each.

Rose had boozer and Noah for less than that and they're not even on Lee or bogut levels offensively.

Rose did perform better offensively in the regular season in 2011 than Curry did in 2014 but curry performed better in the playoffs and has continued that so far this season. What's so difficult about this?

[DMAVS41]

Golden state had better offensive help.

Klay Thompson near 20ppg of elite shooting/scoring.
David Lee and bogut for 68 games each.

Rose had boozer and Noah for less than that and they're not even on Lee or bogut levels offensively.

Rose did perform better offensively in the regular season in 2011 than Curry did in 2014 but curry performed better in the playoffs and has continued that so far this season. What's so difficult about this?


Well, for starters, you've said a lot of contradictory things and it's taken some time to clear it up.

Now I'm clear. Okay...so the big difference was the playoffs. I agree....which is what I said in my first post that you attacked for using the playoffs...LOL

I posted it above, but I'll post it again...Curry actually beats Rose out in the regular season on rapm (the best method we have to compare players playing similar roles)

Curry +4.3
Rose +3.2

Given that....all the other stuff we've talked about...and Curry's playoff play. I see no reason to say Rose was a better player in 11 than Curry was in 14.

[DMAVS41]

In 2011-12 Chicago ranked 5th in offensive efficiency. Rose missed 27 of the 66 games. The Bulls finished with a 50-16 record.

Is there a way you can find out the offensive rating in the 27 games without Rose and the 39 games with him?

I have the on / off stuff, but it'd be nice to see it broken down the other way. Again, those 11 and 12 Bulls teams were just not nearly as been offensively as everyone is letting on.

This is where the big misconception about that 11 Bulls team is.

[tpols]

Well, for starters, you've said a lot of contradictory things and it's taken some time to clear it up.

Now I'm clear. Okay...so the big difference was the playoffs. I agree....which is what I said in my first post that you attacked for using the playoffs...LOL

I posted it above, but I'll post it again...Curry actually beats Rose out in the regular season on rapm (the best method we have to compare players playing similar roles)

Curry +4.3
Rose +3.2

Given that....all the other stuff we've talked about...and Curry's playoff play. I see no reason to say Rose was a better player in 11 than Curry was in 14.

It depends on what you value more.. Great efficiency in a first round loss.. Or an MVP trophy for leading an injured team to the best record in the league.

Being a dirk fan.. I think I know what you'd value more.

[DMAVS41]

It's also important to acknowledge the following:

14 Warriors with Curry? 112 ortg Without? 96
14 Warriors with Curry in playoffs? 114 ortg Without? 88


11 Bulls with Rose? 111 ortg Without? 101
11 Bulls without Rose playoffs? 107 ortg Without? 100


Once again...the difference is help.

[DMAVS41]

It depends on what you value more.. Great efficiency in a first round loss.. Or an MVP trophy for leading an injured team to the best record in the league.

Being a dirk fan.. I think I know what you'd value more.


So there it is. You have given up.

You already conceded that Curry would have led his team to a roughly the same amount of wins....in which Curry likely wins MVP. So you've backed yourself into a corner here.

Just admit you don't even know what you think. Care to explain why the Bulls offense was actually better without Rose than the Warriors offense without Curry in both the regular season and playoffs if Curry had much better offensive help?

No need to bring Dirk into this...you actually rate Dirk higher than me. You previously have posted that Duncan is only slightly, if at all, better than Dirk...LOL

[tontoz]

The MVP trophy was suspect at best. Lebron had better numbers, just not as much hype.

The following year the Bulls went 18-9 without him.

[Crose]

It's also important to acknowledge the following:

14 Warriors with Curry? 112 ortg Without? 96
14 Warriors with Curry in playoffs? 114 ortg Without? 88


11 Bulls with Rose? 111 ortg Without? 101
11 Bulls without Rose playoffs? 107 ortg Without? 100


Once again...the difference is help.
the on off stuff you posted for curry is better than dirk in his mvp season ,both regular season and playoffs. for both ortg and +/-

is curry better than peak dirk?

[DMAVS41]

the on off stuff you posted for curry is better than dirk in his mvp season ,both regular season and playoffs. for both ortg and +/-

is curry better than peak dirk?

no, but I'm not using it to compare Rose to Curry...I'm using it to combat the claim that Curry played with a lot more offensive help.

totally different....and it's certainly no the end all be all...no one thing ever is. i'm not sure you understand on / off like that if you think it should be used to determine the best player. it's far better when talking about help or team strength or more specifically the strength of the 2nd unit or how a team performs without it's star.

The 11 and 12 Bulls had some of the best support differentials I can recall when their best player sits.

I will say that Curry's regular season last year is grossly under-rated here and with better coaching he could done some special things in both the regular season and playoffs.

You bring up Dirk...lets have a look at the best scoring differential the Mavs have ever had when Dirk isn't on the floor in his entire career before this year:

2006....with an amazing plus .2 scoring differential by the Mavs when Dirk wasn't on the floor. I want you to think about that. Every other year of Dirk's career....every single time he went to the bench...odds were his team would either watch their lead dwindle or their deficit grow. 2006 was the only year in Dirk's entire career he had a positive scoring differential by his bench. ****ing pathetic.

Now, lets look at Rose and count each year his team has had a better differential than Dirk's best:

09...+5.5
11...+6.1
12...+8.7

LOL

[tpols]

So there it is. You have given up.

You already conceded that Curry would have led his team to a roughly the same amount of wins....in which Curry likely wins MVP. So you've backed yourself into a corner here.

Just admit you don't even know what you think. Care to explain why the Bulls offense was actually better without Rose than the Warriors offense without Curry in both the regular season and playoffs if Curry had much better offensive help?

No need to bring Dirk into this...you actually rate Dirk higher than me. You previously have posted that Duncan is only slightly, if at all, better than Dirk...LOL

We were talking Warriors there.. How would the Warriors do in the east. I said around the same as the Bulls possibly but then you have to factor in Rose lost his next best player and his starting frontcourt for more time than Curry lost bogut and Lee.. And he still had klay Thompson. And I said they'd finish a little less implying Rose was better in the regular season.

No way curry wins mvp unless he plays great in all the nationally televised big games like Rose did.. You need the drama and narrative to win if your a second tier candidate

[Crose]

no, but I'm not using it to compare Rose to Curry...I'm using it to combat the claim that Curry played with a lot more offensive help.

totally different....and it's certainly no the end all be all...no one thing ever is.

I will say that Curry's regular season last year is grossly under-rated.
well then you're using it wrongly because its not even debatable that curry has more offensive help. you can use all the stats you want but it doesnt change anything. keith bogans was starting on that team.

[DMAVS41]

well then you're using it wrongly because its not even debatable that curry has more offensive help. you can use all the stats you want but it doesnt change anything. keith bogans was starting on that team.

So? Mark Jackson was coaching the Warriors.

If Curry had that much more offensive help...it would show up somewhere. Why doesn't it show up anywhere?

[tpols]

the on off stuff you posted for curry is better than dirk in his mvp season ,both regular season and playoffs. for both ortg and +/-

is curry better than peak dirk?


.
totally different....and it's certainly no the end all be all...no one thing ever is.


:oldlol:

Talk about being backed into a corner.

[DMAVS41]

We were talking Warriors there.. How would the Warriors do in the east. I said around the same as the Bulls possibly but then you have to factor in Rose lost his next best player and his starting frontcourt for more time than Curry lost bogut and Lee.. And he still had klay Thompson. And I said they'd finish a little less implying Rose was better in the regular season.

No way curry wins mvp unless he plays great in all the nationally televised big games like Rose did.. You need the drama and narrative to win if your a second tier candidate

That has nothing to do with how good these guys are at basketball. Stop shifting the argument into pointless areas talking about narrative and drama. Jesus tools....come on.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

Talk about being backed into a corner.

Dude...I was using it to show help. You don't use on / off to compare players in that way...it wouldn't even make sense.

I'm just destroying your assertions...again, where is the evidence that Curry had demonstrably more offensive help. It seems to me that your only out is to say that Rose is just a far better offensive player....but you've already said you don't think that. So you are stuck not being able to even speak coherently. So you start talking about drama, narrative, me being a Dirk fan...etc.

Just so awesome.

What?

I know you aren't this stupid. You'd have to use rapm for that....and well...we already know that rapm grades out Curry as better...but you've ignored that like the plague...even though you use rapm all the ****ing time here.

Priceless.

[SugarHill]

:oldlol:

Talk about being backed into a corner.

Damn :(

[DMAVS41]

Damn :(

:facepalm

You people can't be this stupid.

[riseagainst]

:oldlol:

Talk about being backed into a corner.

dam.

:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

that doesnt change the fact that currys supporting cast was vastly better

again you can try to throw out numbers to prove a point but theres no getting around it - klay thompson, andre iguodala, david lee, andrew bogut, harrison barnes, draymond green, jordan crawford, steve blake , so on is so much better than the bulls offensive guys around rose.

rose doesn't have the luxury of having an excellent sg like clay next to him, and an excellent playmaking guard-forward like iggy. he has the luxury of carrying the offense with keith bogans next to him :lol


Well, Blake hardly played. Crawford was there like half the year and didn't play more than like 12 mpg iirc.

Boozer is about as good as Lee.
Deng is being drastically under-rated here offensively.
Barnes played like shit last year...seriously...did you watch a game?

And not enough is made of Mark Jackson being a very poor offensive coach.



Again...if what you say were actually the case....you just wouldn't see the following:

Warriors offense without Curry? 95.9 ortg
Bulls offense without Rose? 100.9 ortg

Isn't a little odd that the team with the apparently far worse offensive help just performs demonstrably better????? This is over an entire season...with like roughly 1,000 minutes of data. That is like 25% of the season these teams are out there without Curry or Rose. If the Warriors really did have a much better offense outside of Curry than the Bulls did outside of Rose...you just wouldn't see the above.

[Milbuck]

Well, Blake hardly played. Crawford was there like half the year and didn't play more than like 12 mpg iirc.

Boozer is about as good as Lee.
Deng is being drastically under-rated here offensively.
Barnes played like shit last year...seriously...did you watch a game?

And not enough is made of Mark Jackson being a very poor offensive coach.
eh i agree that deng is underrated but we're also underrating how awful boozer was. lee is far better imo. how awful is barnes really when we're comparing him to keith bogans?

on my phone right now, will respond to this in depth when i get on a computer.

off topic, also dont get why people are bringing up dirk in this discussion.

[DMAVS41]

eh i agree that deng is underrated but we're also underrating how awful boozer was. lee is far better imo. how awful is barnes really when we're comparing him to keith bogans?

on my phone right now, will respond to this in depth when i get on a computer.

Cool. Sounds good.

I'm interested in you explaining this:

Warriors offense without Curry? 95.9 ortg
Bulls offense without Rose? 100.9 ortg

Because a lot could explain that, but very rarely would you find that a team with much better offensive help like you claimed...would actually produce offensively worse than the team that supposedly has far less offensive help.

Something just doesn't fit right. And int he playoffs...the disparity gets even worse.

Again...I'm only using this to combat the claim that the Warriors had a lot more offensive help. I'm not saying Curry is better because of this. Should go without saying...but morons above can't understand it. So I'll make that clear.