Larry Bird closes out Jordan's Bulls (1987 playoffs) [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 03:28 PM

just got finished watching yesterday nights re-aired ESPN classic version of this game. what an ending! and what a performance by bird! he finished with 32pts, 14reb, 6ast and 11/21 from the field (jordan shot 9/30 in comparison) - as the celtics close out chicago to face the bucks and eventually go on to meet the lakers in the finals.

watching though - you couldnt help but notice how cerebral and SKILLED bird was. dude couldnt make the game look any easier in crunchtime - which kind of leads me into this next question: who are you taking peak vs peak? jordan or bird?

sure you can't go wrong with either.

but bird's overall shooting, better playmaking and rebounding are to be noted. both are GOAT level when it comes to overall intangibles but Bird is a bit above IMO.

if i wasnt sure of the team i could build around them, and had to chose between them both at their peak, i would have to go with bird simply because he showed he could LEAD his teams past all time SUPERTEAMS (sixers, lakers, pistons)

game i referenced can be seen here BTW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvBv-eCvhyg

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-27-2014, 03:36 PM

Probably an agenda thread, but they're 1A and 1B for me. I think Jordan's scoring prowess and slightly better defense hold up better, against playoff defenses.

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 03:43 PM

here's another GREAT performance from bird that season (against jordan):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COiKFL3ky3M

^foreshadowing about what was to come in the postseason. bird just tooling jordan and oakley in the post. :eek: 41/7/7 on good efficiency (i believe in this game, jordan shot just 9/23 - he never had too much success with those boston teams).

juju151111

11-27-2014, 04:02 PM

Mj every time 6>3

T_L_P

11-27-2014, 04:15 PM

Probably an agenda thread, but they're 1A and 1B for me. I think Jordan's scoring prowess and slightly better defense hold up better, against playoff defenses.

I think peak Jordan is slightly overvalued and peak Bird is slightly undervalued. But 'slightly' better defense? Are you serious?

Bird's biggest celebrity fan, Bill Simmons, admits he played in a weak era for SFs. When the athletic ones came around Bird's good defense at best got exposed. He cannot be compared to Jordan on that end of the floor. And I think Bird is an underrated defender.

Paul George 24

11-27-2014, 04:16 PM

3ball

11-27-2014, 05:11 PM

Bird's biggest celebrity fan, Bill Simmons, admits he played in a weak era for SFs. When the athletic ones came around Bird's good defense at best got exposed.

bill simmons is a FAN like you and me... he doesn't have any special knowledge about the game... actually, i played D1 ball, so i have more special knowledge than he does.

Bird played against plenty of athletic forwards, better than he would play against today actually - Karl Malone, Charles Barkely, Dominique Wilkins, Dr. J, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Roy Tarpley, Larry Nance, Tom Chambers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10757215&postcount=33), Jerome Kersey, Bernard King, Clyde Drexler.

btw, explain how jordan's peak is overvalued.

Quickening

11-27-2014, 05:14 PM

I thought mj never had a bad game when it mattered, shooting under 30 percent?

lilteapot

11-27-2014, 05:15 PM

bill simmons is a FAN like you and me... he doesn't have any special knowledge about the game... actually, i played D1 ball, so i have more special knowledge than he does.

Bird played against plenty of athletic forwards, better than he would play against today actually - Karl Malone, Charles Barkely, Dominique Wilkins, Dr. J, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Roy Tarpley, Larry Nance, Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10757215&postcount=33)

Tom Chambers ([url=), Jerome Kersey, Bernard King, Clyde Drexler.

btw, explain how jordan's peak is overvalued.

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/jennifer-lawrence-oh-yeah-thumbs-up.gif

3ball

11-27-2014, 05:16 PM

Sarcastic

11-27-2014, 05:16 PM

Bird is the GOAT small forward, but Jordan > Bird.

ArbitraryWater

11-27-2014, 05:17 PM

how would you like me to prove it to you

that def would be a nice change for once

3ball

11-27-2014, 05:18 PM

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/jennifer-lawrence-oh-yeah-thumbs-up.gif
how would you like me to prove it to you?

that def would be a nice change for once
how you do you think i have insight on the game regarding footwork that you don't see anywhere else?... because i didn't learn all that footwork myself?... oh, i learned it.

lilteapot

11-27-2014, 05:27 PM

Give us your name, clown.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-27-2014, 05:28 PM

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 06:20 PM

T_L_P

11-27-2014, 06:22 PM

what made bird's legacy so GREAT, was the fact he had to compete against moses, dr j, and magic. jordan's best competition was john stockton, karl malone and barkley (great players, but again, the 80s were a more difficult environment to be a dominant player in). people like to point out the bulls' titles ala "6/6" but Bulls they were just another playoff team in the 80s, while jordan was just 1-9 to start his playoff career.

if people researched they would understand that chicago didnt start winning until the great SUPER teams of the 80s - erving/malone's sixers, magic/kareem's lakers and bird's celtics, were aged and depleted - too old to compete.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/187016-michael-jordan-is-not-the-greatest-player-in-nba-history

^ great article discussing what i am talking about. read the piece on "winning ability" and "era difference"

Maybe because's MJ's best teammates in the 80s were past-his-prime Gerving, Oakley, Paxon, and Orlando Woolridge.

That scenario kind of represents LeBron in the mid 2000s. Didn't win a title until Detroit were gone and Boston got old, and he joined a superteam to do it.

KingPush

11-27-2014, 06:23 PM

how would you like me to prove it to you?

yes

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 06:30 PM

[/I]
i agree with this...

the 80's had only 20 teams for a most of the decade, and the Celtics, Lakers and Sixers are the most talented teams of all time.

no way the bulls win 6 in the 80's.

pretty certain they win 6 today though.... the talent is far more diluted, and both jordan and scottie's game would be enhanced under the current brand of basketball.
exactly. i see them winning somewhere half of that - which is GREAT. jordan and the bulls were one of the greatest dynasties ever, but their competition was somewhat meek - especially in the late 90s.

about winning 6 in today's game - that i am not sure of. i think the 96' team would have beaten last years spurs but no other bulls version beside them. the game is played different - more 3pt shooting, less spacing, better defensive principles etc. scottie pippen's team defense probably gets better but his man defense along with jordan's takes a step back because of the lack of handchecking and having to move your feet.

would be interesting though - like these quotes that are just fascinating with reference to larry's smarts and toughness:

Cooper: “He was the toughest in the sense that anytime Larry was on the floor, you had to be aware of his presence because he was going to make something good happen. I played against George Gervin, Andrew Toney, Dr. J., and Michael Jordan, some of the best players that have ever played this game, but Larry would have to be the best. You knew if Jordan had the ball, once he gave it up, you were okay with that. Larry could go get offensive rebounds. He could make a great pass. He was the ultimate offensive threat. Anytime he was on the offensive side of the floor you had to defend him. To me, that makes him the best I’ve ever played against.”

James Worthy: "Most players are one- or two-dimensional. Larry was ten-dimensional.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 06:49 PM

Maybe because's MJ's best teammates in the 80s were past-his-prime Gerving, Oakley, Paxon, and Orlando Woolridge.
lebron did carry his teams into the ecf/finals though - BIG difference. he deserves a TON of credit for that. jordan (hate referencing this because it feels like im crapping on him), was just 1-9 in the playoffs to start his career. im not sure any other top 10 player has had worse success in the playoffs their first 3 or 4 seasons.

That scenario kind of represents LeBron in the mid 2000s. Didn't win a title until Detroit were gone and Boston got old
the cavs beat detroit in 2007 (who had homecourt), and took boston to 7 games in 2008 with a mediocre cast - i dont think its a stretch to presume they get past boston with another allstar caliber player alongside lebron.

Hey Yo

11-27-2014, 07:08 PM

lebron did carry his teams into the ecf/finals though - BIG difference. he deserves a TON of credit for that. jordan (hate referencing this because it feels like im crapping on him), was just 1-9 in the playoffs to start his career. im not sure any other top 10 player has had worse success in the playoffs their first 3 or 4 seasons.

the cavs beat detroit in 2007 (who had homecourt), and took boston to 7 games in 2008 with a mediocre cast - i dont think its a stretch to presume they get past boston with another allstar caliber player alongside lebron.
:applause:

:cheers:

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 08:03 PM

:applause:

:cheers:
the dunk heard around the world:
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/2007/06/01/fulljgetty74165832nb049_cavs_pist_2.jpg
:eek:

and just for threads sake:
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-25-2014/rSkiCn.gif
:bowdown:

AlphaWolf24

11-27-2014, 08:17 PM

how would you like me to prove it to you?

how you do you think i have insight on the game regarding footwork that you don't see anywhere else?... because i didn't learn all that footwork myself?... oh, i learned it.

Pics or GTFO!!

anyone can say " I played college/NBA"....without solid evidence you look like a turd.

( haven't you read the I'm Matt Gieger's son thread)

3ball

11-27-2014, 08:20 PM

lebron did carry his teams into the ecf/finals though - BIG difference.

you're comparison indicates that you are one of those results-oriented guys that looks at a trust-fund baby whose parents gave him everything and who now has a 150k+ per year job, and you're like "wow, that guy's impressive."

then the guy that didn't have anything and grew up in the projects, but still managed to get to college and get like a 75k per year job - you're like, "yawn, unimpressive... doesn't compare to the trust fund baby."

that's what you are doing here with lebron and jordan - jordan's teams pre-1990 were not nearly as good as lebron's and he played much better competition.

you concede that the 80's boston celtics were one of the 3 most talented teams ever, yet you knock Jordan for losing to them when Charles Oakley, Sam Vincent, and Dave Corzine were Jordan's best options on his 80's teams.

btw, if you are going to be results-oriented, than why not compare Finals records - at least in that scenario, we know that BOTH players have good teams they are working with... using that more fair comparison: 6/6 is ALOT > better than... i'll let you fill in the blank.. :pimp:

SHAQisGOAT

11-27-2014, 08:44 PM

I think peak Jordan is slightly overvalued and peak Bird is slightly undervalued. But 'slightly' better defense? Are you serious?

Bird's biggest celebrity fan, Bill Simmons, admits he played in a weak era for SFs. When the athletic ones came around Bird's good defense at best got exposed. He cannot be compared to Jordan on that end of the floor. And I think Bird is an underrated defender.

I can post plenty of Simmons' quotes that make you go :wtf: (if you know about basketball and its history, at least)...

Weak era for small forwards? :biggums:
Throughout the decade you had SF's such as Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Wilkes, Paul Pressey, Orlando Woolridge, Purvis Short, Mike Mitchell, Rodney McCray, Dennis Rodman, Chris Mullin, Chuck Person, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniel, Kelly Tripucka, Eddie Johnson, Calvin Natt, Danny Vranes, Bill Hanzlik; players like Bobby Jones or Michel Cooper could play/guard the 3, got Pippen coming in, in the late 80's.
...
That's completely stacked like crazy, most likely the GOAT era for SF's (considering Bird too), lots of "variety" also.

Athletic ones? :coleman:
-Dr J in the NBA before Bird even got there, and the same goes for his teammate Bobby Jones (very athletic player, all-time great defender who guarded Larry lots of times);
-King was a very good athlete before injuries, drafted in 1977;
-Marques Johnson was a pretty good athlete, in the league even before Bird also;
-Cooper guarded Bird lots of times, great athlete, all-time great defender, playing full-time since 1979-80;
-Woolridge, beast of an athlete, in the league since 1981;
-Aguirre was pretty athletic in his younger years, drafted in 1981;
-Worhy was the #1 pick in 1982;
-Nique drafted in 1982, in his prime since 1984-85;
-Pressey in the league since 1982, great athlete, great defender;
-McCray, a great defender, buff and athletic, in the league since 1983;
-McDaniel drafted in 1985;
-Rodman was drafted in 1986;
...
Shit, what about non-SF's that used to guard Bird plenty (or even that he guarded sometimes)... Dudes like Larry Nance, Drexler, Chambers, Kenny Walker, Moncrief, even Jordan... Made plenty look like complete fools, too.
(just scratching the surface...)

I'd like to know when the athletic ones came around, now? :rolleyes: :oldlol:
Larry was guarded by many great athletes, different "types" of athletes, different positions too, plenty that were great defenders...

Exposed? In what manner?
Bird was never known for his on-ball perimeter defense, he was a great team defender though, one of the best. Celtics got MUCH better on defense when he came around, and were considerably better on that end while he was on the floor.
Plus, Bird was always more of a terrific all-around stretch 4, better suited to guard the post - pretty good there, m2m. He was "forced" to really play full-time SF (or listed as one) because McHale was coming into his own playing great, and they had no better options.
When Larry was younger/healthier he guarded SF's more and was better for it, before back troubles got "serious" (pre-1986) he more than held his own against those guys. After that he shouldn't even be guarding those really athletic SF's, on an island... He was older and not in perfect conditions (always more of a PF), McHale was a great defender better for it at that time, Bird was more impactful for them at roaming around and he had to be spared more for offense.

Oh, and those extremely athletic SF's? Bird was winning must matchups, Bird was considered the best forward - better yet, best player -Bird was winning rings, MVP's, tearing up the league... Not them, or not at the same level, not close.

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 08:46 PM

you're comparison indicates that you are one of those results-oriented guys that looks at a trust-fund baby whose parents gave him everything and who now has a 150k+ per year job, and you're like "wow, that guy's impressive."

truthfully everything needs perspective - this subject isn't any different. first of all, i do not think lebron can be used in this analogy because he was ANYTHING but a trust fund kid. in fact, his teams were so awful, a legit comparison would draw more parallels to a homeless boxer who came from nothing, becoming p4p one of the greatest to ever fight, drawing massive ppv ratings and such.

yes, lebron deserves credit for not ONLY taking his teams to the ecf/finals with BAD teammates, but doing so without homecourt.

you concede that the 80's boston celtics were one of the 3 most talented teams ever

true - but i also consider the 2008 celtics a superteam - one of the greatest modern era teams in nba history.

OTH, jordan with a so called "bad roster" never ONCE beat the celtics in the 2 postseason runs they went H2H (1986-1987).

people need to read between the lines, CAREFULLY - and comprehend what's being said here. its important to understand, lebron should be lauded for taking obsolete talent into the finals WITHOUT homecourt and to a game 7 semi finals (without homecourt) against a superteam - which brings me back to my original premise - something that i have ALWAYS stated here....lebron does more with less and has had LESS help than the listed, undisputed top 10 players of all time.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-27-2014, 09:01 PM

I can post plenty of Simmons' quotes that make you go :wtf: (if you know about basketball and its history, at least)...

Weak era for small forwards? :biggums:
Throughout the decade you had SF's such as Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Wilkes, Paul Pressey, Orlando Woolridge, Purvis Short, Mike Mitchell, Rodney McCray, Dennis Rodman, Chris Mullin, Chuck Person, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniel, Kelly Tripucka, Eddie Johnson, Calvin Natt, Danny Vranes, Bill Hanzlik; players like Bobby Jones or Michel Cooper could play/guard the 3, got Pippen coming in, in the late 80's.
...
That's completely stacked like crazy, most likely the GOAT era for SF's (considering Bird too), lots of "variety" also.

Athletic ones? :coleman:
-Dr J in the NBA before Bird even got there, and the same goes for his teammate Bobby Jones (very athletic player, all-time great defender who guarded Larry lots of times);
-King was a very good athlete before injuries, drafted in 1977;
-Marques Johnson was a pretty good athlete, in the league even before Bird also;
-Cooper guarded Bird lots of times, great athlete, all-time great defender, playing full-time since 1979-80;
-Woolridge, beast of an athlete, in the league since 1981;
-Aguirre was pretty athletic in his younger years, drafted in 1981;
-Worhy was the #1 pick in 1982;
-Nique drafted in 1982, in his prime since 1984-85;
-Pressey in the league since 1982, great athlete, great defender;
-McCray, a great defender, buff and athletic, in the league since 1983;
-McDaniel drafted in 1985;
-Rodman was drafted in 1986;
...
Shit, what about non-SF's that used to guard Bird plenty (or even that he guarded sometimes)... Dudes like Larry Nance, Drexler, Chambers, Kenny Walker, Moncrief, even Jordan... Made plenty look like complete fools, too.
(just scratching the surface...)

I'd like to know when the athletic ones came around, now? :rolleyes: :oldlol:
Larry was guarded by many great athletes, different "types" of athletes, different positions too, plenty that were great defenders...

Exposed? In what manner?
Bird was never known for his on-ball perimeter defense, he was a great team defender though, one of the best. Celtics got MUCH better on defense when he came around, and were considerably better on that end while he was on the floor.
Plus, Bird was always more of a terrific all-around stretch 4, better suited to guard the post - pretty good there, m2m. He was "forced" to really play full-time SF (or listed as one) because McHale was coming into his own playing great, and they had no better options.
When Larry was younger/healthier he guarded SF's more and was better for it, before back troubles got "serious" (pre-1986) he more than held his own against those guys. After that he shouldn't even be guarding those really athletic SF's, on an island... He was older and not in perfect conditions (always more of a PF), McHale was a great defender better for it at that time, Bird was more impactful for them at roaming around and he had to be spared more for offense.

Oh, and those extremely athletic SF's? Bird was winning must matchups, Bird was considered the best forward - better yet, best player -Bird was winning rings, MVP's, tearing up the league... Not them, or not at the same level, not close.

:pimp:

Educating the young masses, one past at a time. Good sh!t, my brother.

SHAQisGOAT

11-27-2014, 09:09 PM

:pimp:

Educating the young masses, one past at a time. Good sh!t, my brother.

Thanks :cheers:

And on that whole Bird vs Jordan subject... They both have top5 all-time peaks as overall players (along with Shaq, Kareem and Wilt), while Jordan probably has a slight better one and he's obviously better ranked on the all-time list (mostly because Bird dealt with career ending injuries also).

With that said, Larry won his titles in a tougher era, and more often than not Bird's Celtics were winning against Jordan's Bulls... Bird at his absolute best (pre-1988) while MJ was in his prime but not peak and didn't have quite as good of teammates as Bird during those years though, but Larry was also winning the "matchup" more often than the other way around.

Anaximandro1

11-27-2014, 09:17 PM

so much bullshit ...

1987 ECFR - Celtics 3 vs Bulls 0

McHale 20.5 pt/8.3 rb/3.0 as/1.0 blk

Parish 16.7 pt/10.3 rb/1.7 as/2.7 blk

Johnson 19.3 pt/7.7 as/3.0 rb /1.7 stl

Ainge 17.0 pt/5.7 as/3.0 rb/1.3 stl

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oxPTeOE9mLk/VHfMj30n2VI/AAAAAAAADgc/DmgmVhJt7FM/s1600/11.jpg

3ball

11-27-2014, 09:17 PM

Mehyta... my *****... :facepalm

3ball

11-27-2014, 09:18 PM

yes, lebron deserves credit for not ONLY taking his teams to the ecf/finals with BAD teammates, but doing so without homecourt.

Have you looked at the 2008 Cavs roster?

Zydrunas Illgauskaus, Larry Hughes, Delonte West, Drew Gooden, Anderson Varejao, Daniel Gibson.

Do you know how much better that is than Jordan's 80's teams?

Jordan had Charles Oakley, Dave Corzine, John Paxson, Brad Sellers, Gene Banks - i can't go further than that because... i don't know who the **** they are after that.

Btw, Lebron's best option was Zydrunas - he was a legit offensive big man - a GO-TO offensive big man that the Cavs used extensively - he was huge 7'3", could really bang, and had been an all-star.

Delonte and Larry Hughes were athletic two-way players.

This is the team that took Boston to 7 in 2008 - not only were they actually kind of stacked as the roster shows, but they were in nothing-to-lose, surprise-everyone mode and they overachieved.

yes, lebron deserves credit for not ONLY taking his teams to the ecf/finals with BAD teammates, but doing so without homecourt.

After the nothing-to-lose season of 2008, the Cavs roster improved even more, adding Shaq, all-star Mo Williams, JJ Hickson, and frieking Antawn Jamison.... But with this now legitimately stacked team, they UNDERACHIEVED by losing to Boston team in 6 games, and even to Dwight Howard in 6 games.

and when those Cavs teams lost to Boston again and to Dwight, they were considered UNDERACHIEVEMENTS because the roster had been improved so much... so are you going to knock lebron for his UNDERACHIEVEMENTS in 2009 and 2010?... also, Lebron was considered to have been mentally shook vs. Boston in 2010.

lebron does more with less and has had LESS help than the listed, undisputed top 10 players of all time.

this isn't true obviously - in cleveland, his 2008-2010 teams were actually quite stacked... and obviously in miami, he teamed up with the best SG in the game, and the best PF in the game - no one in history has had a bigger silver spoon in their mouth than that.. no one.

So again, if you are going to be results-oriented, than why not compare Finals records - at least in that scenario, we know that BOTH players have good teams they are working with... using that more fair comparison: 6/6 is ALOT > better than 2/5....

i mean, it's not like we are talking about 5/5 or 4/5... it's 2/5, which doesn't hold a candle to Jordan, who is the greatest champion ever, other than Bill Russell (Kareem wasn't the #1 option or MVP for all his rings)..

SHAQisGOAT

11-27-2014, 09:53 PM

so much bullshit ...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oxPTeOE9mLk/VHfMj30n2VI/AAAAAAAADgc/DmgmVhJt7FM/s1600/11.jpg

Don't get what's "bullshit"? :confusedshrug:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2efrd53.jpg

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285611
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146170

From another forum, not me:

Because Bird started succumbing to injuries beginning with the 88-89 season, we have 4 informative seasons (from 84-85 to 87-88) and 2 playoffs encounters (86 and 87) to use in this H2H comparison.

84-85 Season:

11/15/84-

Jordan: 27/2/2 (12/24. 3/3)

Bird: 14/17/3 (6/17, 2/2)

Celtics win.

12/22/84-

Jordan: 32/12/8 (12/18, 8/8)

Bird: 10/7/4 (3/14, 4/4) - injured; McHale and Johnson DNP

Bulls win.

1/9/85-

Jordan: 36/6/6 (12/24, 12/13)

Bird: 28/11/4/3/3 (9/21, 10/10)

Celtics win.

2/5/85-

Jordan: 41/12/7 (14/25, 13/14)

Bird: 27/9/7 (9/21, 8/8)

Celtics win.

2/22/85-

Jordan: 26/4/7 (8/18, 10/12)

Bird: 34/8/5 (16/28, 0/0)

Celtics win.

3/6/85-

Jordan: 33/7/3 (13/28, 7/7)

Bird: 25/9/10 (11/24, 2/2)

Bulls win.

Cumulative Stats-

Jordan: 32.5/7.2/5.5 (52%)
Bird: 23.0/10.2/5.5 (44%)

In his rookie season Jordan actually had his best performances compared to Larry and really played well.

85-86 Season:

3/21/86-

Jordan: 20/2/1 (7/16, 6/7) - in 16 min

Bird: 32/6/8 (11/18, 8/8)

Celtics win.

In 85-86, MJ missed 5/6 of the regular season games against Boston due to injury and the one that he played it was off the bench with limited minutes.

85-86 Playoffs:

Game 1-

Jordan: 49/4/2 (18/36, 13/15)
Bird: 30/6/8 (9/13, 10/13)

Game 2-

Jordan: 63/5/6 (22/41, 19/21)
Bird: 36/12/8 (14/27, 6/7)

Game 3-

Jordan: 19/10/9 (8/18, 2/3)
Bird: 19/6/8 (5/13, 9/10)

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 28.3/8.0/8.0 (53%)
Jordan: 43.7/6.3/5.7 (50.5%)

Celtics win 3-0.

Jordan put up better numbers and had that legendary 63 point Game 2 in a 2OT loss. Funny enough, no one mentions Game 3 in Chicago where Jordan choked, scoring only 19 points on 8-18 shooting with 5 turnovers. It has been said that Boston coach KC Jones decided to let Jordan get his in Game 1 & 2 while shutting down everyone else. Seeing how close the first 2 games were and the fact that MJ could go for 60+ points if "you let him get his", KC decided to reverse the strategy and lock down on MJ in Game 3 which supposedly destroyed his offensive rhythm.

86-87 Season:

11/14/86-

Bird: 37/10/5 (52%)
Jordan: 48/5/1 (51.5%)

Celtics win.

01/02/87-

Bird: 37/8/9 (61.1%)
Jordan: 34/8/3 (41.9%)

Celtics win. Bird easily outplays Jordan.

27/01/87-

Bird: 24/14/3 (39%)
Jordan: 30/5/6 (38%)

Celtics win.

28/01/87-

Bird: 26/5/9 (65%)
Jordan: 27/4/4 (48%)

Celtics win. Bird wins match-up.

27/03/87-

Bird: 41/7/7 (58.6%)
Jordan: 22/7/7 (39.1%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins match-up.

17/04/87-

Bird: 38/8/7 (59%)
Jordan: 17/4/8 (33%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins match-up.

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 33.7/8.8/6.5 (56%)
Jordan: 29.7/5.5/4.8 (43%)

Bird really pistol-whipped MJ this season. Outplayed him in arguably every game and Celtics won 6-0.

87 Playoffs:

Game 1-

Jordan: 35/6/7 (12/25, 11/11)
Bird: 17/9/13 (4/7, 7/7)

Game 2-

Jordan: 42/4/4 (14/29, 12/14)
Bird: 29/7/8 (9/17, 11/13)

Game 3-

Jordan: 30/11/7 (9/30, 12/14)
Bird: 32/14/6 (11/21, 10/11)

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 26.0/10.0/9.0 (53%)
Jordan: 35.7/7.0/6.0 (41.7%)

Celtics win 3-0.

Bird again outplayed MJ in this postseason. Jordan scored more in volume but on poor efficiency and again saved his worst game for the pivotal Game 3 in Chicago. With the Bulls up 7 with 11 min left, Jordan went 0-8 from the field the rest of the way and 9-30 overall. Bird scored 15 points in the final stanza, dominating the Bulls and sweeping the series.

87-88 Season:

12/01/88-

Bird: 38/9/8 (58%)
Jordan: 42/4/6 (53%)

Celtics win. Bird wins match-up.

18/03/88-

Bird: 19/10/6 (42%)
Jordan: 50/5/9 (59%)

Bulls win. Jordan finally wins head to head and it's the only time he really outplayed Bird in these 2 seasons.

20/03/88-

Bird: 33/7/8 (67%)
Jordan: 26/4/7 (56%)

Celtics win. Bird wins match-up

21/04/88-

Bird: 44/10/3 (65.5%)
Jordan: 39/3/8 (51.5%)

Celtics win. Bird wins match-up.

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 33.5/9.0/6.3 (59%)
Jordan: 39.3/4.0/7.5 (55%)

Stats are close this year but they are skewed by the one game Jordan dominated and outscored Bird 50-19. Bird still outplayed MJ in 3/4 games and Boston went 3-1.

88-89 Season:

11/09/88-

Bird: 18/10/6 (36.8%)

Jordan: 52/3/2 (54.5%)

Bulls win. Jordan takes this one easily. Bird plays just 6 games all year due to back injury and is never really the same afterwards.

89-90 Season:

11/04/89-

Bird: 27/9/6 (50.0%)

Jordan: 24/5/6 (55.6%)

Celtics win.

03/04/90-

Bird: 38/11/9 (50.0%)

Jordan: 36/6/11 (47.8%)

Bulls win.

04/17/90-

Bird: 23/5/8 (39.1%)

Jordan: 35/11/6 (54.2%)

Bulls win.

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 29.3/8.3/7.7 (46.8%)

Jordan: 31.7/7.3/7.7 (52.3%)

Impressive showings by a declining Bird. He plays Jordan to a virtual draw.

90-91 Season:

11/06/90-

Bird: 24/11/1 (68.8%)

Jordan: 33/8/12 (50.0%)

Celtics win.

11/09/90-

Bird: 23/8/5 (40.0%)

Jordan: 41/5/6 (68.0%)

Bulls win.

02/26/91-

Bird: 12/7/5 (42.9%)

Jordan: 39/8/4 (58.6%)

Celtics win.

03/31/91-

Bird: 34/15/8 (41.7%)

Jordan: 37/7/9 (33.3%)

Bulls win.

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 23.3/10.3/4.8 (46.5%)

Jordan: 37.5/7.0/7.8 (50.8%)

91-92 Season:

11/06/91-

Bird: 30/2/9 (59.1%)

Jordan: 44/3/6 (61.5%)

Bulls win.

12/25/91-

Bird: 8/8/4 (40.0%)

Jordan: 14/8/5 (42.9%)

Bulls win.

03/11/92-

Bird: 10/4/6 (26.7%)

Jordan: 32/13/3 (60.9%)

Bulls win.

Cumulative Stats-

Bird: 16.0/4.7/6.3 (44.7%)

Jordan: 30.0/8.0/4.7 (57.1%)

So, with both stars in their prime (from '86-'88), Bird outplayed Jordan in a large portion of the games. More importantly, Celtics went 14-3 against Chicago in the regular season and a stunning 6-0 in the postseason.

What makes Bird outplaying MJ in so many games even more impressive is that his USG% was almost half of MJ's... Bird played within his team (which was more talented though no doubt) and Jordan tried to do everything on his own which inflated his stats.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyways, like I've said before:

Thanks :cheers:

And on that whole Bird vs Jordan subject... They both have top5 all-time peaks as overall players (along with Shaq, Kareem and Wilt), while Jordan probably has a slight better one and he's obviously better ranked on the all-time list (mostly because Bird dealt with career ending injuries also).

With that said, Larry won his titles in a tougher era, and more often than not Bird's Celtics were winning against Jordan's Bulls... Bird at his absolute best (pre-1988) while MJ was in his prime but not peak and didn't have quite as good of teammates as Bird during those years though, but Larry was also winning the "matchup" more often than the other way around.

poido123

11-27-2014, 10:18 PM

what made bird's legacy so GREAT, was the fact he had to compete against moses, dr j, and magic. jordan's best competition was john stockton, karl malone and barkley (great players, but again, the 80s were a more difficult environment to be a dominant player in). people like to point out the bulls' titles ala "6/6" but they were just another playoff team in the 80s, while jordan was just 1-9 to start his playoff career.

if people researched they would understand that chicago didnt start winning until the great SUPER teams of the 80s - erving/malone's sixers, magic/kareem's lakers and bird's celtics - were aged and depleted - too old to compete.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/187016-michael-jordan-is-not-the-greatest-player-in-nba-history

^ great article discussing what i am talking about. read the piece on "winning ability" and "era difference".

pretty sure you're Tony Montana or someone's alt.

gets tiring the agenda Threads? Is 1 billion jordan threads not enough for You?

F.cking moron.

SHAQisGOAT

11-27-2014, 10:21 PM

would be interesting though - like these quotes that are just fascinating with reference to larry's smarts and toughness:

[B]:applause: Great quotes.
Here's some more...

Michael Cooper:
[QUOTE]

Round Mound

11-27-2014, 10:34 PM

:applause: Great quotes.
Here's some more...

Michael Cooper:

(from 'Showtime')

James Worthy:
"I'd much rather guard Michael Jordan than Larry Bird(...)"
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rg1sFMxnbM&t=2m26s)

Michael Jordan:

(from 'When the Game Was Ours')

:applause:

Bird > Jordan as Team Player. Period!

mehyaM24

11-27-2014, 11:49 PM

Don't get what's "bullshit"? :confusedshrug:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2efrd53.jpg

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285611
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146170

From another forum, not me:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyways, like I've said before:

:cheers:

made a thread on this a while back...while jordan was winning the MVP race in 1988 (and later the actual award), bird just thrashed him in h2h matchups.

iirc, bird had a 3-1 h2h advantage over "MVP jordan" in the regular season - and in all but ONE game, he outplayed jordan statistically.

few highlights to the games referenced:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg

of course - in the playoffs, the bulls were to be had by detroit. ironically enough, just a year before, the celtics swept chicago - in one of those games, mj went BLANK in the 4th quarter (0pts), this while the bulls were up DOUBLE DIGITS to begin the period. OTH, bird had ~12 points to close the game and series - as usual, a monster in crunchtime - and those quotes you digged up is proof of that.

97 bulls

11-27-2014, 11:59 PM

:cheers:

made a thread on this a while back...while jordan was winning the MVP race in 1988 (and later the actual award), bird just thrashed him in h2h matchups.

iirc, bird had a 3-1 h2h advantage over "MVP jordan" in the regular season - and in all but ONE game, he outplayed jordan statistically.

few highlights to the games referenced:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg

of course - in the playoffs, the bulls were to be had by detroit. ironically enough, just a year before, the celtics swept chicago - in one of those games, mj went BLANK in the 4th quarter (0pts), this while the bulls were up DOUBLE DIGITS to begin the period. OTH, bird had ~12 points to close the game and series - as usual, a monster in crunchtime - and those quotes you digged up is proof of that.
So what's the point? The Celtics were a much better team than the Bulls during the 80s. The Celtics should've won more often than not when facing those Bulls.

97 bulls

11-28-2014, 12:01 AM

And for the life of me. Why do we keep making these references as if Bird played Jordan 1-1? The Celtics beat the Bulls. Plain and simple.

Pointguard

11-28-2014, 12:06 AM

Plus, Bird was always more of a terrific all-around stretch 4, better suited to guard the post - pretty good there, m2m. He was "forced" to really play full-time SF (or listed as one) because McHale was coming into his own playing great, and they had no better options.
When Larry was younger/healthier he guarded SF's more and was better for it, before back troubles got "serious" (pre-1986) he more than held his own against those guys. After that he shouldn't even be guarding those really athletic SF's, on an island... He was older and not in perfect conditions (always more of a PF), McHale was a great defender better for it at that time, Bird was more impactful for them at roaming around and he had to be spared more for offense.
In '85 Bird wasn't guarding Worthy or Bernard King. McHale and Maxwell held the defense down against the better SF's. And Bird admitted he could not hold Bernard King - Most people couldn't.

1987_Lakers

11-28-2014, 12:07 AM

No secret that Bird from '86-'88 routinely outplayed Jordan.

SHAQisGOAT

11-28-2014, 12:13 AM

In '85 Bird wasn't guarding Worthy or Bernard King. McHale and Maxwell held the defense down against the better SF's. And Bird admitted he could not hold Bernard King - Most people couldn't.

So I've said that he did? :rolleyes:

I can probably say who guarded who more in most of those series, off the top, but I don't want to get into all of that... What I meant there is that he was guarding SF's more in his younger years than afterwards (better suited for it, logical, also healthier); younger years where he gets "listed" as a PF more, before McHale got into the starting 5 and so.

97 bulls

11-28-2014, 12:18 AM

No secret that Bird from '86-'88 routinely outplayed Jordan.
Statistically? Or did the Celtics normally beat the Bulls

Pointguard

11-28-2014, 01:07 AM

So I've said that he did? :rolleyes:

I was just clearing up this statement because it dubious as hell. The statement should read an earlier date than what you wrote.

When Larry was younger/healthier he guarded SF's more and was better for it, before back troubles got "serious" (pre-1986)
The back injury had nothing to do with him not guarding the better SF's. I was just pointing that out. His youth and health didn't mean he guarded the high powered SF either.

There was never a comparison between Bird and Jordan defensively. Many times Jordan would take the harder cover at guard and Bird would take the easier cover - at times cross three positions.

I can probably say who guarded who more in most of those series, off the top, but I don't want to get into all of that... What I meant there is that he was guarding SF's more in his younger years than afterwards (better suited for it, logical, also healthier); younger years where he gets "listed" as a PF more, before McHale got into the starting 5 and so.[/B]
It was more logical, but it had nothing to do with his back which you clearly suggest. It was something that was happening when he was getting on all defensive teams.

ILLsmak

11-28-2014, 01:19 AM

not gonna have time to watch this all right now, but even that first pass Bird threw was godlike lol. SHIT.

DJ wasn't ready for that kind of a laser to start a game.

-Smak

Pointguard

11-28-2014, 01:20 AM

Statistically? Or did the Celtics normally beat the Bulls
That was Bird at his peak play, and statistically it showed. But in no way would I give that to Bird. Eye test??? Jordan was unstoppable, a one man wrecking crew. Capable of totally taking over games with little help. Didn't Bird call him god???

L.A. Jazz

11-28-2014, 02:34 AM

There was never a comparison between Bird and Jordan defensively. Many times Jordan would take the harder cover at guard and Bird would take the easier cover - at times cross three positions.
That's just logical if you know the Celtics. With D. Johnson and K.McHale they had two of the best and most versatile defenders back then. Larry was a good defender but not great. You do whats best for the team, not to fuel internet discussions 20 or 30 years later (yeah, thats a shot at Lebron ;) )

Lebron23

12-16-2019, 02:30 PM

No secret that Bird from '86-'88 routinely outplayed Jordan.
6-0 in the playoffs. Swept his team twice. That's what happened when Jordan played against legit Super Teams.

Sportal

12-16-2019, 03:02 PM

Besides the massive necro-post....... 3ball played D1 ball?? But after the statement completely dodged anything to do with proof, lol.

Rico2016

12-16-2019, 03:05 PM

bill simmons is a FAN like you and me... he doesn't have any special knowledge about the game... actually, i played D1 ball, so i have more special knowledge than he does.

Bird played against plenty of athletic forwards, better than he would play against today actually - Karl Malone, Charles Barkely, Dominique Wilkins, Dr. J, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Roy Tarpley, Larry Nance, Tom Chambers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10757215&postcount=33), Jerome Kersey, Bernard King, Clyde Drexler.

btw, explain how jordan's peak is overvalued.

Proof? Or just another 3ball fantasy fable?

RRR3

12-16-2019, 03:08 PM

Proof? Or just another 3ball fantasy fable?
He’s a known liar.

He also claimed....

•he’s 6’8
•he dunked twice on Zach Randolph in one pickup game
•he can score “at will” on all-defensive teamer Raja Bell
•he has the hottest girlfriend in Las Vegas

Rico2016

12-16-2019, 03:11 PM

He’s a known liar.

He also claimed....

•he’s 6’8
•he dunked twice on Zach Randolph in one pickup game
•he can score “at will” on all-defensive teamer Raja Bell
•he has the hottest girlfriend in Las Vegas

This is just getting sad now :( Like I legit feel for the guy. He's been bullied all his life in the e-world for supporting a fraud and now he has to create fantasy worlds to make himself feel better. Damn, I legit feel bad for bragging about going to my Lakers game last month now.

Dear 3ball,

I am sorry.

Lebron23

12-16-2019, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=RRR3]He

3ball

12-16-2019, 04:36 PM

6-0 in the playoffs. Swept his team twice. That's what happened when Jordan played against legit Super Teams.
MJ lost to a super-team with an 8 seed/lottery cast, while Lebron lost by more (record amount) with super-team casts, and to 2 different opponents (14' and 18' Finals)

Da_Realist

12-16-2019, 04:52 PM

Much respect to Larry Bird. Top 5 in my book and my 2nd favorite player. I don't knock a young MJ for not beating a top 5 GOAT in the midst of his prime playing on a great team.

MJ kept coming though. He didn't go passive and then team up with superstar friends in order to compete. (Yeah, that's a shot at LeBron)

Rico2016

12-16-2019, 04:53 PM

MJ lost to a super-team with an 8 seed/lottery cast, while Lebron lost by more (record amount) with super-team casts, and to 2 different opponents (14' and 18' Finals)

I am sorry for all the bullying you have endured.

72-10

12-16-2019, 06:37 PM

MJ noticeably gave up on scoring in the third game of this series and instead deferred to his scrub cast of teammates.

Manny98

12-16-2019, 06:41 PM

LeBron would have never have allowed himself to get swept by the same team two years in a row

Pathetic

ranigma

12-16-2019, 07:35 PM

LeBron would have never have allowed himself to get swept by the same team two years in a row

Pathetic

Lebron would have joined the Celtics to prevent that.

Manny98

12-16-2019, 08:00 PM

Lebron would have joined the Celtics to prevent that.
Nope he took the Celtics to 7 games and joined a Heat team who were first round fodder and carried them to 4 straight finals :applause:

3ball

12-16-2019, 08:08 PM

and joined a Heat team who were first round fodder and carried them to 4 straight finals

So wait... Lebron joined a playoff team in 2011 and didn't 3-peat like MJ did when he joined a barely-playoff team in 1995?..

Despite also being joined by a top 4 PF?

Just another example of his vast inferiority... :facepalm

Lebron joins 3 HOF in Wade/Bosh/Allen and goes 2/4... MJ joins Pippen and fossil Rodman and goes 3/3.... no comparison.

Nope he took the Celtics to 7 games

No, his cast and team defense carried him while he shit the bed with 26 on 35%

MJ never had a cast that could go 7 games against an all-time assemblage of talent while he shit the bed with 26 on 35%... infact, MJ never even had a series anywhere near that bad... :facepalm:

ELITEpower23

05-01-2021, 11:39 AM

Besides the massive necro-post....... 3ball played D1 ball?? But after the statement completely dodged anything to do with proof, lol.

3ball?

hateraid

05-01-2021, 12:10 PM

Proof? Or just another 3ball fantasy fable?

Lol, that's a total utter lie. Nobody who plays D1 ball has his take on current basketball and be so slanted in their opinions. Thorpesaurus is someone believable who's played college ball. Someone who has an unbias analysis. 3ball pulled that notion out of his ass just.like how he describes Jordan. It exists in his mind

Axe

07-11-2023, 05:12 AM

bill simmons is a FAN like you and me... he doesn't have any special knowledge about the game... actually, i played D1 ball, so i have more special knowledge than he does.

Bird played against plenty of athletic forwards, better than he would play against today actually - Karl Malone, Charles Barkely, Dominique Wilkins, Dr. J, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Roy Tarpley, Larry Nance, Tom Chambers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10757215&postcount=33), Jerome Kersey, Bernard King, Clyde Drexler.

btw, explain how jordan's peak is overvalued.
:roll: