Crazy drop in oil prices today

[KevinNYC]

Russian Ruble hit hard. Canadian and Norwegian currency dropped.
http://marketbusinessnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/WTI-prices.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AtGe1dmRUbc/VHfhXlWp-eI/AAAAAAAAbX8/fLuNF8Epwig/s1600/WTI%2BDaily.png

Oil prices keep plummeting (http://www.vox.com/2014/11/28/7302827/oil-prices-opec) as OPEC starts a price war with the US


Oil prices have been in free-fall for the past three months — a huge energy story with major consequences for dozens of countries, from the United States to Russia to Iran.

But this week, prices started plummeting even further. The reason? OPEC — a cartel of oil producers that includes Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, and Venezuela — had a big meeting in Vienna on November 27. Before the meeting, there was speculation that OPEC countries might cut back on their own oil production in order to prop up prices. But in the end, the cartel couldn't agree on how to respond and did nothing.

As a result, oil prices nosedived, with the price of Brent crude now hovering around $70 per barrel:

This is a big shift in global oil politics. Essentially, OPEC is now engaged in a price war with oil producers in the United States. The cartel will let prices keep falling, in the hopes that many of the newest drilling projects in the US will prove unprofitable.

This is a risky situation for OPEC, since many of its member countries require high oil prices to balance their budgets. Iran, for one, is facing a real pinch. It's also a sign that OPEC's influence over global oil markets may be weakening.

[KevinNYC]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/29/upshot/oil-prices-are-tumbling-heres-who-wins-and-who-loses.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0

Winners and losers.

[longhornfan1234]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/29/upshot/oil-prices-are-tumbling-heres-who-wins-and-who-loses.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0

Winners and losers.
You're such a agenda driven, F@99ot.

[Godzuki]

they didn't mention it hurts ISIS

[Kungfro]

It's certainly slowed things down here in Alberta.

[KevinNYC]

You're such a agenda driven, F@99ot.
What in hell are you talking about? That's a serious question. What caused this knee-jerk reaction?

[KevinNYC]

It's certainly slowed things down here in Alberta.
Yeah, this is why I posted the winners and losers, Some folks are saying that at these prices fracking might not be profitable. Also if you are a drilling company that has borrowed a lot money to expand during boom times, you might be in trouble.

We have more than a few frackers on this board.

[Nanners]

so we get cheaper gas, and things like fracking and oil sands become less profitable? sounds good to me.

[KevinNYC]

Dow hit another record today, wonder what will happen Monday as folks return from vacation.

[kentatm]

You're such a agenda driven, F@99ot.

:facepalm

way to show your true colors brah

[nathanjizzle]

we dont need these arab countries, electric cars are coming because we rely on our intelligence not the lay of the land.

[DeuceWallaces]

You're such a agenda driven, F@99ot.

Someone get this guy a mirror.

[Jasper]

An oil man / told me that OPEC needs to keep the barrel prices below $75 , because the US goverment believes North Dakota in 2020 will provide our country independence from them.
OPEC's objective is to keep business with US :D

I don't care , I filled up today with a : :whatever:

[BurningHammer]

Gas below 110 tomorrow night! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Bandito]

Someone get this guy a mirror.
:lol

[dunksby]

People are the winners, remember this is a war between governments (corporations vs govs), so enjoy that oil price who knows how long it is gonna last anyway.

[fiddy]

Saudis dumping large quantities of oil in favor of the U.S. to hurt Russian economy

[KevinNYC]

Saudis dumping large quantities of oil in favor of the U.S. to hurt Russian economy

Not what a lot of oil analysts are saying. They are saying this goes beyond Russia and is about fracking in the US

At OPEC Meeting, Saudi Arabia Stares Down Texas and North Dakota

Oil News: OPEC Looks to Stomp Out American Rival Before it Loses Control

Oil Seen in New Era as OPEC Won't Yield to U.S. Shale

OPEC decision means 'pain train' for U.S. oil industry

A Cold War Brews Between Saudi Arabia and Texas

How low can it go? Oil, gas prices in freefall as OPEC reels from US fracking

The idea is if you oil prices drop right now you can kill off some of the weaker businesses doing fracking.

[fiddy]

if true...R.I.P. OPEC rats

[GimmeThat]

I'm gonna go ahead and take that warehouse that I can store crude oil with.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

A Cold War Brews Between Saudi Arabia and Texas

:lol

[KevinNYC]

http://m.bbc.com/news/business-30276353

Ruble hit hard today

[KevinNYC]

Oil hit a five year low and then rebounded.

[KevinNYC]

Analysts are talking about the possibility of $2 gas in the US by Christmas.
(http://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl=dEtyDSdkgfB00KM7g3PAB1kskmOoM&authuser=0&ned=us&topic=b&siidp=8e35ebe3fc8fbbad8586158774a370480c59)

Newt Gingrich when running for President in 2012 (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/why-the-sudden-drop-gas-prices-matters)

[rufuspaul]

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]

Newt Gingrich when running for President in 2012 (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/why-the-sudden-drop-gas-prices-matters)

[Nanners]

You do realize that pushing fracking is a Republican agenda.

not really, fracking is bipartisan. barely any mainstream democrats are anti fracking, and certainly not obama.

[B-hoop]

This isn't news in economic circles, OPEC is trying to stop the expansion of shale oil by lowering prices.

Actually the only country in OPEC capable of lowering their production of oil and really impacting oil prices is Saudi Arabia. The objective is to end a possible threat to OPEC down the road and at the same time they get to screw with Iran and other oil producing Shiites countries.

They have been expecting to see this happening since last year.

[KevinNYC]

You do realize that pushing fracking is a Republican agenda.

You do realize that pushing fracking is a Republican agenda.You do realize it's 2014 right? When's the last time Obama stood in the way of fracking? Obama's energy policy is called "all of the above" and he specifically has talked about fracking and natural gas as bridge to the a future with cleaner energy.

I'm not saying these gas prices are due to Obama, but it was also stupid to blame him when they were high.

Prices have come down because Europe and China's economies have slowed downed and there is less demand. The one thing Obama could take some credit for is US cars are not required to be more fuel efficient and they are 25% more efficient than 2007.

http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/img/EDI_mpg_October-2014_small.png

[KevinNYC]

A drop in the oil price from $115 to under $70 is monumental.

In the geopolitical arena, the ramifications are also monumental. Budgets of many foreign countries are coming under duress. Civil unrest is unlikely to increase in those countries due to their inability to fund subsidies that have acted to bribe the population. We look for more geopolitical turmoil worldwide and regime change in some countries. In others, dictators suppress the population with machine guns, so the unrest is below the surface until it explodes.

There is one more dynamic set in motion in circumstances like this. The strongest of the currencies and most durable of the economies get stronger and more durable. We expect a continual increase of capital flows into the US. America is the safest of havens in the world. These flows are bullish for US stocks and high-grade bonds, as global agents from throughout the world safety seek safety.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/12/oil-part-1/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[rufuspaul]

barely any mainstream democrats are anti fracking

Which should change as the negative environmental impact becomes more evident. Unless (gasp) Democrats in congress are two-faced political bullshitters.


I'm not saying these gas prices are due to Obama

Right. :rolleyes:

[KevinNYC]

Right. :rolleyes:
A little dishonest not to quote my full sentence, no?

So I guess you missed that first post about Opec, Russia, Norway and Canada, huh?

[Jailblazers7]

This really is an interesting event because of the implication it has on so many different areas. US energy industry could potentially take a big hit, it could delay the progress made in hybrid/electric cars (TSLA down $30 in the past 2 weeks), there are massive geopolitical ramifications, etc.

We could be witnessing the last desperate attempt of OPEC to maintain it's geopolitical bargaining power but who really knows. It should be pretty awesome for the US economy tho as transportation becomes easier which should be great for consumers and domestic/international trade.

[~primetime~]

This really is an interesting event because of the implication it has on so many different areas. US energy industry could potentially take a big hit, it could delay the progress made in hybrid/electric cars (TSLA down $30 in the past 2 weeks), there are massive geopolitical ramifications, etc.

We could be witnessing the last desperate attempt of OPEC to maintain it's geopolitical bargaining power but who really knows. It should be pretty awesome for the US economy tho as transportation becomes easier which should be great for consumers and domestic/international trade.
The overall impact in the US will be GREAT

Lower gas prices equates to lower prices on most everything equates to people spending more in general equates to a huge boost in the economy.

[Jailblazers7]

The overall impact in the US will be GREAT

Lower gas prices equates to lower prices on most everything equates to people spending more in general equates to a huge boost in the economy.

Yeah, it's basically like we just got a giant tax decrease.

[rufuspaul]

A little dishonest not to quote my full sentence, no?

So I guess you missed that first post about Opec, Russia, Norway and Canada, huh?


How I picture you


http://a1.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE1ODA0OTcxOTc5OTk4NzMz.jpg

[KevinNYC]

Yeah, it's basically like we just got a giant tax decrease.
The head of the IMF says she's expecting 3.5% GDP growth for the US next year.

[KevinNYC]

How I picture you


http://a1.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE1ODA0OTcxOTc5OTk4NzMz.jpg
My glasses are thicker and I'm more feminine.

[KevinNYC]

Apparently the average break even point for North Dakota's oil is just 42$ and OPEC would have to drop all the way to $50 to make a dent in production. I can't see them going that low, but what was the last time oil was $50 a barrel?

That's for operations that are up and running. If you are still acquiring land or doing exploration your costs are going to be higher. Also if you floated a bunch of junk bonds to finance your exploration, you might be in some trouble.

[rufuspaul]

what was the last time oil was $50 a barrel?


2005. It was Bush's fault.

[Droid101]

How I picture you

Speaks more of your bias than his.

[Nanners]

Which should change as the negative environmental impact becomes more evident. Unless (gasp) Democrats in congress are two-faced political bullshitters.


:oldlol:

aside from one or two outliers, everyone in congress is a two-faced bullshitter.

the vast majority of democrats dont give a fvck about the environment. look at how obama and the left wing reacted to the BP oil spill.

[KevinNYC]

This really is an interesting event because of the implication it has on so many different areas. .... there are massive geopolitical ramifications, etc.

OPEC is not going to meet again until June.

I wonder what shape Venezuela will be in by June. They are said to have the oil industry with the highest costs. They already have a lot of social unrest.

Russia just cut its 2015 by 2% of GDP and are now expecting a recession.

[rufuspaul]

Speaks more of your bias than his.

says the other Obama head cheerleader


:pimp:

[rufuspaul]

it could delay the progress made in hybrid/electric cars (TSLA down $30 in the past 2 weeks)



One of the biggest negatives imo.

[Balla_Status]

Although different circumstances, this happened in 2008 and the price rebounded. I expect big companies to keep doing fine. They might cutback a bit on operations but thats all. BHP Billiton has found a loophole in legislation and can export refined condensate since it's not technically crude oil. They can get better prices that way. Smart. This will just hurt the start ups.

Fracking is one of the reasons why prices have dropped.

In the meantime, I need to start diversifying my skills. Australia is all gas but it would be in my best interest to start learning something else on the side.

[boozehound]

Although different circumstances, this happened in 2008 and the price rebounded. I expect big companies to keep doing fine. They might cutback a bit on operations but thats all. BHP Billiton has found a loophole in legislation and can export refined condensate since it's not technically crude oil. They can get better prices that way. Smart. This will just hurt the start ups.

Fracking is one of the reasons why prices have dropped.

In the meantime, I need to start diversifying my skills. Australia is all gas but it would be in my best interest to start learning something else on the side.
what happened to oil is forevah, hawker?

While domestic production has played a role in this, it is my understanding that this is purposeful manipulation by OPEC to keep them in charge of the game.

While it is true that the big companies will survive this, even BP (value down over a quarter the last 5 months) and Haliburton (value down to half over that period) are impacted. Besides, most of the domestic development is smaller companies (at least in the mercan west).

[Droid101]

says the other Obama head cheerleader


:pimp:
I cheerlead facts and science, things that the far right don't really ascribe to. Lesser of two evils is still evil at times.

In Droid's defense he was born really fvkin dum
http://media.giphy.com/media/1guRIRK7SuVJyc9bBUA/giphy.gif

[Balla_Status]

what happened to oil is forevah, hawker?

While domestic production has played a role in this, it is my understanding that this is purposeful manipulation by OPEC to keep them in charge of the game.

While it is true that the big companies will survive this, even BP (value down over a quarter the last 5 months) and Haliburton (value down to half over that period) are impacted. Besides, most of the domestic development is smaller companies (at least in the mercan west).

Wouldnt mind getting out of the industry at some point. If I ever get pigeonholed into an office job (currently trying to get out of one now), I'd like to switch. I hate working in the office...

Unfortunately distance learning programs are a fortune. $40k for a masters in industrial engineering at A&M internationally...no thanks.


Experienced engineers/scientists/technologists will be fine. It's the support staff that will be made redundant the majority of the time.

Then the engineers/scientists/technologists will be expected to pick up the slack for the same pay.

[johndeeregreen]

It's certainly slowed things down here in Alberta.
I've made 30% more than last year and am finishing the busiest two week stretch of work this year. We have been pretty much all out, all year, uninterrupted. So I can't say that I've noticed any sort of slowdown whatsoever.

[KevinNYC]

"The ruble situation is looking quite ugly" (http://online.wsj.com/articles/bank-of-russia-spent-700-million-dec-1-trying-to-ease-ruble-pressure-1417592893) The service portion of Russia's economy is back to 2009 financial crisis levels.


The Bank of Russia intervened in the currency market for the second time this week on Wednesday in an effort to defend the crumbling ruble, traders said, but the effect was short-lived.

The ruble weakened to a record low of 54.91 against the dollar in morning trading, pressured by a recent slide in the oil price and Russia’s gloomy economic outlook. But at 0951 GMT, the ruble suddenly firmed to 52.79 per dollar.

The central bank let the ruble float freely from Nov. 10 and eliminated regular interventions after spending nearly $30 billion of its reserves did little to stop the ruble’s decline. But the central bank has repeatedly said it reserved the right to carry out sudden interventions at any level to ensure financial stability and avoid panic. On Wednesday, it revealed that it had sold $700 million earlier in the week in defense of the ruble, which has been hitting record lows daily.

MORE

Central Bank Moves Rattle Currency Markets
MoneyBeat: Russia Struggles With Ruble Defense
The central bank’s latest move back into the market, however, supported the ruble only briefly. The dollar quickly pushed back up to 54.

“The ruble situation is looking quite ugly,” said Luis Saenz, head of equity and derivatives sales and trading at BCS Financial Group.

[rufuspaul]

In Droid's defense he was born really fvkin dum


:lol

[BurningHammer]

It might drop to one loonie one litre very soon here.

[RoseCity07]

So how cheap is gas going to get. I saw 2.97 at an overpriced station. Costco must be like 2.50. I gotta fill up soon.

[Droid101]

Costco California is down to 2.77 today. Lowest I've seen in ages.

[KevinNYC]

Oil fell another 4% today. $63 a barrel. (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oil-continues-slide-trades-near-five-year-lows-2014-12-08)


Crude-oil prices again tumbled to five-year lows Monday, pressured by forecasts that a global glut of oil will persist into the first half of next year.

On the New York Mercantile Exchange, crude futures for January delivery CLF5, -4.18% dropped $2.79, or 4.2%, to settle at $63.05 a barrel. The U.S. oil benchmark logged the lowest settlement for a front-month contract since July 16, 2009, sliding further just one session after ending at levels last seen on July 29, 2009.

they expect prices in the $60 for another 6 months.

[~primetime~]

It's crazy how cheap gas is right now...it's around $2.30 a gallon here

[BurningHammer]

It could go below a dollar here in Ontario very soon, the first time in years.

[KevinNYC]

Oil fell another 4% today. $63 a barrel. (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oil-continues-slide-trades-near-five-year-lows-2014-12-08)



they expect prices in the $60 for another 6 months.

Well that was quick.

Oil went under $60 today.

The price for a barrel of West Texas Intermediate crude oil -- a U.S. benchmark -- closed today at $59.95


I saw one analyst say if your oil costs $80 a barrel to produce, you are better off just waiting a couple of years until your price rebounds because the prices won't stay this low for that long.

[KevinNYC]

Ruble keeps getting pounded too. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/russian-ruble-hits-all-time-low-of-55-to-1-versus-u-s-dollar-1.2870009)


The Russian ruble continued its slow slide Thursday, falling to an all-time low against the U.S. dollar. It now costs 55 rubles to get one U.S. dollar.

Against the euro, the rube was threatening to break through the 70 rubles to one euro threshold for the first time ever, too. Russia's central bank tried to stem the tide in the afternoon by hiking its benchmark interest rate by another quarter of a point.

But it wasn't enough, as the ruble sell-off continued. Russian stocks were also lower, with the benchmark RTS stock index losing almost four per cent.

.....

Last week the Russian central bank said the country is likely to slip into recession next year. The country's inflation rate has skyrocketed to above 10 per cent this year, very much related to the decline in the ruble (because it costs a lot more rubles to buy anything imported from outside Russia.)

The ruble has lost about 42 per cent of its value since January, battered by Western sanctions imposed over the conflict in eastern Ukraine and the drop in the price of oil, the backbone of the Russian economy.

[Bandito]

And I don't have a car to drive anymore...Yipee....:(

[KevinNYC]

Venezuela is getting killed.

If you're looking for high yield Venezuela is paying 22% on their 10 year bonds.
However, there's a 93% chance they will default on those bonds.

[QUOTE]Judging by the bond market, the probability of Venezuela defaulting on its debt is 93%.

The cost of Venezuela default insurance is now the highest of any country in the world. Investors must now pay $5.9 million in advance to insure against the default of $10 million of Venezuelan five-year bonds, plus $500,000 a year. That

[KevinNYC]

Damn, inflation in Venezuela is over 60%.

[KevinNYC]

Ruble keeps getting pounded too. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/russian-ruble-hits-all-time-low-of-55-to-1-versus-u-s-dollar-1.2870009)
Oil still going down.

Ruble getting killed. (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30490082). Interest rates almost doubled to 17% today


The Russian central bank has announced it is hiking its key interest rate to 17% from 10.5%.

The bank said the move was to try to ease the rouble's recent descent in value.

The Russian rouble has dropped to a new low against the US dollar, as falling oil prices and Western sanctions continue to weigh on the country's economy.

It snapped back to 60 roubles per dollar from a low of 67 earlier.

Rubles per dollar keeps going up as oil plunges
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B46jsRvCEAAdbg1.png

[~primetime~]

Gasoline is below $2.00 a gallon in 13 US states.

I never ever thought we would see that again.

[DCL]

Supply and demand never really controlled oil prices. they'd want you to think that it did, but it only played a small role.

shit has always been rigged as hell.

[longhornfan1234]

US taking a 35 billion hit.

[KevinNYC]

Column on Putin's experiment
Putin has, in effect, launched a vast experiment into whether it is possible to extract a large and relatively well-integrated country from the global mainstream, and to reject the rules by which that mainstream runs.

.....Sanctions have exacerbated the difficulties created by the collapse in oil prices, and in this narrow economic sense, Putin’s experiment has failed, or at least proved to be very expensive. Oil prices may rise again, Russia has large reserves and its economy may well recover — but in the meantime ordinary Russians will pay a huge price. If nothing else, we have learned that it is very expensive to break international economic rules and to live without allies. Even the Chinese have used the crisis to take advantage of Russian weakness, negotiating for themselves an advantageous gas deal: it’s often forgotten that they like the rules of globalisation, which until now have suited them very well.The drop in oil prices is having the effect of making the bite of the sanctions stronger.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9390902/will-russians-put-up-with-economic-hardship-for-the-glory-of-the-motherland/

[KevinNYC]

US taking a 35 billion hit.
The US? or the US oil industry? They are not the same.

[longhornfan1234]

The US? or the US oil industry? They are not the same.

You knew what I meant. :coleman:

[Nanners]

US oil industry is losing money? someone get me my tiny violin

[KevinNYC]

You knew what I meant. :coleman:

Actually, I'm continually astounded by what you think.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10776317&postcount=3

[longhornfan1234]

Actually, I'm continually astounded by what you think.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10776317&postcount=3


You're trying to dig up anything to make Putin look bad. We all know Putin embarrassed Obama on world wide stage all year until the last couple of months.

[enayes]

Price is at $1.99 here in Oneonta

[rezznor]

US taking a 35 billion hit.
you are so transparent

[KevinNYC]

Since the US is not a petrostate, but has a robust mixed economy, GDP for the US is going to pretty nice next year.

Petorstates not so much. If Oil states at $60/barrel next year, Russia will go into a deep recession.
Gross domestic product may shrink as much as 4.7 percent in 2015, if oil remains at $60 a barrel, the central bank said before the rate decision. Inflation may quicken to 11.5 percent next quarter.

So far the giant rate hike has stopped the ruble from plunging.
The Russian central bank took a big enough step to halt the ruble’s record decline by unexpectedly raising the benchmark interest rate to 17 percent, according to Alliance Bernstein LP and Stone Harbor Investment Partners.

Policy makers lifted the rate 6.5 percentage points from 10.5 percent, the biggest increase since the nation’s 1998 default, at an unscheduled meeting after the ruble fell to an all-time low. One-month ruble forwards rallied 2.3 percent at 6:36 p.m. in New York trading, halting a six-day slide.

[Godzuki]

i'm about to put $10k into PBR, tempted to put $20k. fukk :facepalm @6.26 right now...feel like i can't lose on it in the long run.

[Nanners]

Price is at $1.99 here in Oneonta

whoever owns the stolen credit card you are filling your tank with will be grateful for that

[longhornfan1234]

Since the US is not a petrostate, but has a robust mixed economy, GDP for the US is going to pretty nice next year.

Petorstates not so much. If Oil states at $60/barrel next year, Russia will go into a deep recession.

So far the giant rate hike has stopped the ruble from plunging.
:roll:

Kevin, I see what you're doing. You're just giggling at the fact Putin is vulnerable. Where were you when Putin made Obama look like a fool?

[KevinNYC]

Price is at $1.99 here in Oneonta
You at SUNY?

Ever hear that 30 Rock joke? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrZF5esecyc)

[KevinNYC]

:roll:

Kevin, I see what you're doing. You're just giggling at the fact Putin is vulnerable. Where were you when Putin made Obama look like a fool?

Like I said, you continually astound me. Giggling :facepalm

Governments are going to fall next year over this. Venezuela's will be first.


Also do you remember the 1998 Russia financial crisis? That did not stay contained to Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Russian_financial_crisis#Background_and_cours e_of_events

[KevinNYC]

whoever owns the stolen credit card you are filling your tank with will be grateful for that

Nicely done.

[longhornfan1234]

Like I said, you continually astound me. Giggling :facepalm

Governments are going to fall next year over this. Venezuela's will be first.


Also do you remember the 1998 Russia financial crisis? That did not stay contained to Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Russian_financial_crisis#Background_and_cours e_of_events

How do I astound you?

[KevinNYC]

How do I astound you?
OH I dunno, I started a thread about the biggest economic news in the world and you replied like this?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10776317&postcount=3


Who thinks like that?

[Godzuki]

Pabst blue ribbon?
Hoestly, putting that much money in an oil company is retarded. It's possible oil doesn't pop back above $80 a barrel for another decade, or it could go back up in a few months. There's a reason oil is tanking. Production has increased a lot and OPEC isn't really working as a cartel anymore.


it HAS to go back up. OPEC is strategically overproduciing right now. oils real value in the world is much higher than where its currently at tho. these levels are not going to last long...

its very reassurring to me i'm also buying it at a ridiculous low point of the normal stock price has been for years.

just makes me nervous as fukk going so all in on it, and never invested in a commodity stock before. i mean i'm strongly considering close to all in. either way i got to wait 4 days~ for a money transfer to clear to use most of my investment if i do.

[KevinNYC]

just makes me nervous as fukk going so all in on it, and never invested in a commodity stock before. i mean i'm strongly considerin

So don't go all in. It may take a while for it to go back up.

[longhornfan1234]

Like I said, you continually astound me. Giggling :facepalm

Governments are going to fall next year over this. Venezuela's will be first.


Also do you remember the 1998 Russia financial crisis? That did not stay contained to Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Russian_financial_crisis#Background_and_cours e_of_events

How do I astound you?

[Godzuki]

So don't go all in. It may take a while for it to go back up.


yeah i expect to hold it for a year or two~ if that, i dont think oiil will just jump back to highs but it won't stay this low either. this low is a anomaly.


its just going to kill me if i don't maximize the value if it pans out well, especially when i've been waiting for something to crash to put money into..

[longhornfan1234]

OH I dunno, I started a thread about the biggest economic news in the world and you replied like this?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10776317&postcount=3


Who thinks like that?


I kno your agenda. You and I have been debating each other over 2 years.

[DCL]

politics are playing a much bigger role than fundamentals of economics in the price of oil.

anyone who believes the price of oil is a singular function of the free market is swallowing a load from mainstream media.

this was an agenda-based policy. don't see oil suddenly popping up back high anytime soon. it will eventually in the future whenever that is, but this is punishment time for those who rely on high price of oil. (it's not us)

[KevinNYC]

politics are playing a much bigger role than fundamentals of economics in the price of oil.

Explain what the politics are.

You mentioned the game was rigged earlier. Tell us why players in a rigged market would drive down prices.

[DCL]

Explain what the politics are.

You mentioned the game was rigged earlier. Tell us why players in a rigged market would drive down prices.

well, first we have to understand why oil prices were so damn high in the first place. OPEC is pretty dishonest and corrupt, but the US just happens to flex good amount of influence on OPEC. and contrary to what the media had always reported, high ass oil prices were actually desired by the us policy makers who were pushing for QE because by having oil prices high, that kept petro-dollars in very high demand, which is one reason why our currency never depreciated despite all that money-printing, so they can continue with more QE.

well, QE is over in the meantime, so the need to keep oil prices high wasn't a priority anymore, and USD is semi-stable, at least for now. but there's really no point in keeping oil prices high because that's helping out our enemies. they are the ones who benefited the most when oil prices were high because their economy relied heavily on the export, but we had to give it them then because we were also tied to that commitment until now.

and since we have no need for petro dollars to stay high anymore, we're crashing oil to f...k russia. sanctions aren't enough. we're going after them where it hurts the most, sticking a fat one up their asses. the political motivations are there, and the timing is no coincidence. these are the games that they play.

i'm very curious to see how this plays out. will the dollar fall back? will QE re-enter the picture after the rest period. maybe that's when they decide to pump up oil prices again.

[KevinNYC]

well, first we have to understand why oil prices were so damn high in the first place. OPEC is pretty dishonest and corrupt, but the US just happens to flex good amount of influence on OPEC. and contrary to what the media had always reported, high ass oil prices were actually desired by the us policy makers who were pushing for QE because by having oil prices high, that kept petro-dollars in very high demand, which is one reason why our currency never depreciated despite all that money-printing, so they can continue with more QE.

well, QE is over in the meantime, so the need to keep oil prices high wasn't a priority anymore, and USD is semi-stable, at least for now. but there's really no point in keeping oil prices high because that's helping out our enemies. they are the ones who benefited the most when oil prices were high because their economy relied heavily on the export, but we had to give it them then because we were also tied to that commitment until now.

and since we have no need for petro dollars to stay high anymore, we're crashing oil to f...k russia. sanctions aren't enough. we're going after them where it hurts the most, sticking a fat one up their asses. the political motivations are there, and the timing is no coincidence. these are the games that they play.

i'm very curious to see how this plays out. will the dollar fall back? will QE re-enter the picture after the rest period. maybe that's when they decide to pump up oil prices again.
Thanks. That was way more thought out than I expected. I don't agree with it, but it's a coherent argument. Are you a Zero Hedge fan?

[Droid101]

I kno your agenda. You and I have been debating each other over 2 years.
You flapping your arms against your chest and yelling "Hurrrrrrrr" is not a debate.

[DCL]

Thanks. That was way more thought out than I expected. I don't agree with it, but it's a coherent argument. Are you a Zero Hedge fan?

i check it out occasionally. so many things out there to digest.

[enayes]

whoever owns the stolen credit card you are filling your tank with will be grateful for that

I've actually thought about buying some large jugs at walmart so I can really stock up on gas the next time I find a credit card. I would feel a little uncomfortable filling them up though, we'll see.

[KevinNYC]

I've actually thought about buying some large jugs at walmart so I can really stock up on gas the next time I find a credit card. I would feel a little uncomfortable filling them up though, we'll see.

Are you familiar with the term contango?

It's the term for what you are talking about. Koch industries in late 2008 supposedly leased four jumbotankers to just stay afloat and not deliver oil. It was a way of artificially driving the prices back up.

[DeuceWallaces]

whoever owns the stolen credit card you are filling your tank with will be grateful for that

I don't think the autistic kid will notice.

[KevinNYC]

OPEC has been producing the same amount of oil for three years straight. In fact, most of OPEC is producing less and Saudi Arabia is picking up the slack because OPEC as a cartel is no longer that functional. The glut is coming from North America, not the middle east. OPEC just isn't cutting production like they once might have.

So lets think this through though. Production in the US drops over the next few years and oil prices are back up to 100+ a barrel. Great, now we're right back where we started because most of these projects to produce shale oil are easy to start up and shut down, and the tar sands are the complete opposite where shutting them down isn't realistic unless you're looking over long periods (think a decade at least) Technology is creating the oil glut, not some OPEC policy. OPEC is hoping they can shut down a few very expensive oil production projects that might not start back up, mainly really old stuff in the north sea.

Further on most of these oil productions in the US are not all that expensive. The stuff in North Dakota's break even is about $40 a barrel, and the average overall is only $50. Remember though, many of these wont shut down even at this point because of the sunk costs they're looking to regain, so the effects of this glut will be seen down the line, not immediately.


So all in all, oil probably won't be $50 dollars a barrel, but it probably won't spike up past $100 again without dropping back down.

An Australian shale oil company that was do drilling in US closed to the low oil prices the other day. I think it was the first.

Shale oil in ND is $40 a barrel if you already own the land. The first couple of years are more expensive, because you need the land rights, from what I understand. This makes it harder to generalize.

[KevinNYC]

Oil still going down.

Ruble getting killed. (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30490082). Interest rates almost doubled to 17% today

Man, Russia is in full blown crisis. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-16/ruble-snaps-six-day-loss-on-surprise-rate-increase-to-17-percent.html) The central bank tried to stop the ruble's bleeding, by announcing a rate hike from 10.5% to 17%. A massive unexpected hike. And it hasn't stopped the bleeding. The initial overnight reaction looked good

So far the giant rate hike has stopped the ruble from plunging.
Then Russians woke up. [QUOTE]The ruble fell for a seventh day, reversing its biggest advance in 16 years, as slumping oil outweighed Russia

[KevinNYC]

1998 Comes Calling (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-15/russia-venezuela-rekindle-memories-of-1998-emerging-market-rout.html) in Currency and Credit Plunges From Russia to Venezuela
Emerging markets are ending the year much like how they began it -- in freefall.

From Russia to Venezuela, Thailand to Brazil, stocks, bonds and currencies across the developing world are plunging.

The Russian ruble tumbled past 64 for the first time on record today while Venezuelan bonds sank below 40 cents on the dollar and Thai stocks fell the most in 11 months. Brazil’s corporate debt market is reeling as a graft probe of state oil producer Petroleo Brasileiro SA infects the market.

All of this has something of a familiar feel to it, dating back to 1998, when, just like now, oil was tumbling and driving crude exporters Russia and Venezuela into financial crisis.

[KevinNYC]

A new round of sanctions against Russia is sitting on President Obama's desk to sign The "Ukraine Freedom Support Act" was signed Saturday.
Administration officials said they are deeply concerned about Russia's actions in Ukraine, but they want any sanctions regime to minimize the impact on U.S. business, international oil markets and the global economy.

Obama had said previously he opposed further sanctions on Russia unless Europe is on board. The administration had also held off supporting lethal military aid for the Kiev government, which is also authorized in the bill.

Congress passed the "Ukraine Freedom Support Act" on Saturday, seeking to put more pressure on President Vladimir Putin by authorizing new sanctions on weapons companies and investors in its high-tech oil projects, and to boost the Kiev government with military aid.

At the White House's request, the measure authorizes sanctions but does not make them mandatory, giving Obama leeway over what would actually be in force.

Lethal aid to the Ukraine is also part of the bill.

[Eric Cartman]

The US is making out like bandits with this oil drop.

Hope it continues :banana:

[Dresta]

US & EU for some reason are determined to create a bloodbath in Ukraine, as if they don't already have enough problems. You have to be completely ignorant of history not to recognise that they are the aggressors in this instance, and that their constant eastward expansionism is seen as a direct threat by Russians, who are of course still anxious about the two previous invasions from the West (that caused incredible carnage).

Putin has been sending warning signals for 5+ years now: just because Western leaders decided to ignore them, doesn't mean they weren't there, and that Westerners aren't creating another problem they will not be able to solve (who do you know that's going to give up their life to fight over Ukraine?). Making them poor is only going to make them more violent you morons! And we certainly aren't going to send our militaries to Ukraine over something so pointless (that's what this is: pointless death and carnage over phoney ideals).

"Ukraine Freedom Support Act" - what disgraceful hypocrisy.

[Godzuki]

well just put in a order for 380 shares, all i could until my transfeer clears. really hope it doesn't jump in 4 days~ its already up on premarket but who knows.

i don't really want to push this with a argument until my investment clears. i'll just say i feel its money. at the least a 15-20% gain on iinvestment, imo very likely a lot more. there are a lot of variables at play right now for what Opec is doing IMO and its effects, but i do think some factors trump everything else with its value.

[KevinNYC]

well just put in a order for 380 shares, all i could until my transfeer clears. really hope it doesn't jump in 4 days~ its already up on premarket but who knows.

i don't really want to push this with a argument until my investment clears. i'll just say i feel its money. at the least a 15-20% gain on iinvestment, imo very likely a lot more. there are a lot of variables at play right now for what Opec is doing IMO and its effects, but i do think some factors trump everything else with its value.

Have you seen any other news for PBR?

[Godzuki]

Have you seen any other news for PBR?


yeah i did some reads on them only releasing audited 3rd qtr financials, oil field hype possibly misleading investors, and how brazilians were overcharging the company conspiracy mumbo jumbo. thats pretty much it tho.

[KevinNYC]

Man, Russia is in full blown crisis. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-16/ruble-snaps-six-day-loss-on-surprise-rate-increase-to-17-percent.html) The central bank tried to stop the ruble's bleeding, by announcing a rate hike from 10.5% to 17%. A massive unexpected hike. And it hasn't stopped the bleeding. The initial overnight reaction looked good

Then Russians woke up.Then it got much worse. Last night when I posted this, I wondered if "full blown crisis" was too much or not. No, something very bad is happening very fast in Russia right now.

Overnight

The ruble weakened 2.1 percent to 65.8425 a dollar by 12:36 p.m. in Moscow

At one point it got as low at 79 rubles to the dollar.
[QUOTE]In afternoon trading, the Russian currency resumed its fall to record lows, with the dollar rising above 79 rubles in spite of the bank

[Droid101]

Then it got much worse. Last night when I posted this, I wondered if "full blown crisis" was too much or not. No, something very bad is happening very fast in Russia right now.

Overnight


At one point it got as low at 79 rubles to the dollar.

It finished at 72.

They are saying the ruble won't reach bottom until oil stabilizes.

Russia has been trying to prop up the ruble at the expense of its interest rates which is also going to be costly to the country. YIKES
But you don't understand! 0BAMA was made a FOOL of by PUTIN at some point and furthermore comma

[KevinNYC]

You know how much of Russias GDP is oil? Less than %15. That may be true for GDP, but I believe the Russian government's revenue is greatly dependent on oil. (http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/28/news/economy/russia-oil-price-100-dollars-budget/)


More than half of Russia's revenue, between $191 and $195 billion last year, comes from oil and gas revenues.

Also I realize that losing one company isn't a big deal, I was just pointing out the the shakeout had started.

[KevinNYC]

Republicans will push the keystone pipeline as their first bit of business when they take over in January.


http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/mitch-mcconnell-keystone-xl-pipeline-113608.html

[boozehound]

The thing is this isnt about Russia if you actually paid attention. This is about OPEC falling apartt and Saudi Arabia hoping to kill some competition, because Oil is the only thing their economy produces. You know how much of Russias GDP is oil? Less than %15. Saudi Arabias is 55%. If they have any sort of oil crisis like Russia is having (and btw capital flight is a huge problem too, not just oil) theyre considerably worse off.
The west doesnt even directly control its energy manufacturers like most of these petrostates do. They cant plan to dump oil to drag Russia down. This is the culmination of almost ten years of policy change in the US and Canada.
GDP is largely irrelevant. Nearly half of all govt revenue in Russia is from oil. Saudi Arabia has stockpiles of money and can produce oil at about $5/barrel.

[longhornfan1234]

OPEC is whipping Putin. Not Obama. I hope people realize that.

[DCL]

if you look at the accounting aspect, it is *ABOUT* russia.

do you know who's getting hammered from oil price drop besides russia? the smaller US companies. they do have expensive production costs. so why would the US agree to this (letting their own companies get fked)? because that's collateral damage to give Russia a huge uppercut, actually, no, it's more like a prison-style **** raping because that's how the makers of US foreign policy like to operate.

Boozehound gave the figure that Saudi's production costs are about $5/barrel. that's not pretty far off from i've seen too. they've been at this a long time, and their access to oil is a lot easier than everyone else. the middle east has a tremendous advantage in extracting resources. they don't have to dig too deep to the earth to get it. it's the same for most countries in surrounding areas. iraq, iran, UAE, oman, qatar, etc all have production costs that are only a fraction of ours in amercia.

http://opinion.bdnews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Rabiul-zaki-final1.jpg
http://opinion.bdnews24.com/2014/02/04/crude-oil-production-cost-2-market-price-100/

even with oil having dropped so much, many countries are still profitting, but just not as much as the glory days.

whereas, in the us, companies are getting slaughtered already because it's waaaaay more expensive:

https://oilprice.com/images/tinymce/James%208/AE3137.jpg
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-Report-Finds-Oil-Sands-Production-Costs-Below-U.S.-Tight-Oil.html

so why would the US just happily accept this? wouldn't this be considered as economic warfare against the US? no, because it's economic warfare against Russia. their production costs aren't high neither, but they heavily depend on high prices to function.

[DCL]

Agree? What does the US agreeing have to do with anything?

well.... in short, because the great USA are gangsters. :oldlol:

we don't have the oil, but we have always had a big hand in the oil business. why do you think oil is denominated in petro-dollars instead of petro-euros? because that benefits our situation and we demanded it. any country that tried to move away from the game plan had always been punished pretty good.


They range from 10-25 a barrel actually. Maybe just pumping it out of the ground costs $5 or something.

$5, $10, or even $20... the production cost is still a lot cheaper than what our companies have to deal with.

[DCL]

and the idea that oil prices are rationally determined by supply and demand is just the silliest notion. if people believe that, then they believe anything that mainstream media puts out.

demand for oil didn't just suddenly fall off the cliff in the last 5 weeks. and supplies didn't just suddenly shoot up to the stratospheres.

oil is the most manipulated commodity in the world.

[KevinNYC]

if you look at the accounting aspect, it is *ABOUT* russia.

so why would the US just happily accept this? wouldn't this be considered as economic warfare against the US? no, because it's economic warfare against Russia. their production costs aren't high neither, but they heavily depend on high prices to function.

I don't see anything in your post that indicates this is ABOUT Russia.

The idea this is economic warfare against the US is completely myopic and my issue with longhorn's post above. That only makes sense if US OIL COMPANIES = THE US.

Low oil prices will benefit the entire US economy and be a boost to growth. I think you're really out there on this.


demand for oil didn't just suddenly fall off the cliff in the last 5 weeks. and supplies didn't just suddenly shoot up to the stratospheres.Yes, but oil prices are different than most prices the relationship between change in price IS NOT 1 to 1 with change in demand. Prices go up quick and fall quick on small changes in demand. One to one looks like this

http://www.amosweb.com/images/45-degree.gif

Oil, Supply and Demand curves are much steeper.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/243/2888/320/oil1.jpg


I pointed out that with a small increase in Demand (from D1 to D2), we would see a small increase in Quantity (Q1 to Q2), but a large change in Price (from P1 to P2). Also a large price increase would also occur if we had a small decrease in supply such as a disruption to production, transport or refining.

And the opposite is also true. A relatively small decrease in demand or increase in supply (fracking) could cause a significant decline in prices. Especially now with OPEC's diminished role (since cutting production helps other producers).
Read more at http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2014/12/a-comment-on-oil-prices.html#r2SeD5UDMzrHoQoL.99

[KevinNYC]

Here's another pricing model with real data until June 2014 or summer driving time in Europe and North America.

https://oilprice.com/images/tinymce/Evan1/ada713.png

We have North American oil production booming, we have Libyan production was back up pretty high this year, (though fighting has halted that again.) combined with economic slowdown in China and Europe.

[KevinNYC]

The world's worst performing Currencies this year are Russia's and the Ukraine's.

Ruble doing better today. Russia seems to be buying rubles

The ruble USDRUB, -6.16% shot higher in early trade on Wednesday after Russian news agency Interfax reported that the Russian finance ministry has started to sell its foreign currency reserves. Against the dollar, the ruble traded at 65.2550 compared with 67.8939 in late trade on Tuesday.

The Russia is facing stagflation, high inflation during a stagnant economy.
[QUOTE]Stagflation Risk

Russia, meanwhile, is sinking into stagflation.

A recession looms at the same time that inflation is soaring to a three-year high. The economy may shrink as much as 4.7 percent next year if oil, the country

[KevinNYC]

Should be an interesting week.

Germany's Merkel has reached out to Putin for comprehensive ceasefire in the Ukraine. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/merkel-calls-putin-over-ukraine-amid-ruble-plunge/2014/12/17/cd5e5b52-85bf-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html)

The US FED meets today. (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/three-most-important-things-to-watch-during-fed-meeting-2014-12-16)

Putin gives his annual press conference on State TV this on Thursday. Last year he talked for four hours. This year, State TV has put together a trailer, I'm not kidding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xai7ttzbx5M

[DCL]

The idea this is economic warfare against the US is completely myopic and my issue with longhorn's post above. That only makes sense if US OIL COMPANIES = THE US.

it's not economic warfare against the US. it's economic warfare on Russia. or do you believe the US has zero interest in domestic companies blowing up, which only makes the US more dependent on foreign oil? it's light collateral damage compared to what they're really targeting: Russia. the US can and will continue without the survival of the domestic oil companies and it does not depend on high oil prices to operate. but Russia does.




We have North American oil production booming, we have Libyan production was back up pretty high this year, (though fighting has halted that again.) combined with economic slowdown in China and Europe.

they've been talking about slowdown for years. and this slowdown didn't come out of the blue. we've had it for a while. this goes back to 2007/2008.

but what was still happening just not so long ago?

all time high oil prices for years despite the slowdown that was already happening in europe and china. that's not this month's news.

you won't find the answer in an econ 101 textbook because the price of oil has always been rigged.

[DCL]

and it's not the first time that this has been played in the game book. the soviets broke up during the same period that oil prices got crushed and stayed low for a period. that's hardly a coincidence. the US owns the bible on economic warfare. look at cuba. look at north korea. with prolonged sanctions and recession, it'll be interesting to see what russia looks like in 20 years unless they have a change of leadership and direction.

[B-hoop]

Magnax you are right about the supply side of the equation, but you are forgetting about the demand side. Demand right now is weak as ****, so what Saudi Arabia (and OPEC) expect is to keep prices low, **** with shale oil companies while demand is low and profit when supply overshoots on the downside and oil explodes to 120$ once again.

And yes, oil in Saudi Arabia costs around 7$ to extract.

[Godzuki]

there are too many variables to really throw US agenda based conspiracy theories out there. i mean while low oil does hurt Russia, does hurt US oil/shale companies, it helps consumers and spending considerably. i know they said its like a extra $100+ in everyones pocket a month with these fuel prices which really is good for everyone but the oil/gas industry.

i also agree that our government does not do stuff based on our companies so much as people think. i think Russia is actually a bigger concern for them than all of our energy company profits considering their provocations and investment in arms build up. even then its very arguable our gov would take more money in consumers pockets since it helps a lot more entitites over a energy sectors well being/profits.

i think there is a lot of truth to OPEC trying to shake off the weak or heavily debted from the tree branch with the low oil, which creates a bigger market for them if those companies go under or downsize. its not like these companies planned 10-20 years ahead of time with oil at $5-10 prices. they spent on equipment, operations, exploration, eetc. and borrowed based on $80+~ fuel costs with those profits they made expected to be used to pay back those loans. i mean all of them seem to have heavy reinvestment costs they're committed to over long terms, and without the money to pay those notes they're at risk of default/bk. it is true that some can afford it much more than others, which is why i think its a strategic squeeze by OPEC like has been reported. i do not think they're doing it for the US so much but we aren't complaining too much either.

i still can't see oil staying this low for much longer, it has to bottom out pretty soon. its not like OPEC likes making half their usual profits, even if they would make less than usual if they cut production as well.

[KevinNYC]

they've been talking about slowdown for years. and this slowdown didn't come out of the blue. we've had it for a while. this goes back to 2007/2008.

but what was still happening just not so long ago?

all time high oil prices for years despite the slowdown that was already happening in europe and china. that's not this month's news.

What are you talking about?

http://www.businessinsider.in/photo/45467577/Oil-Prices-Are-Cratering-But-So-Is-The-Price-Of-Gas.jpg

Oil was over $140 a barrel in 2008 because the dollar was a bit weak. Then during the financial crisis it crashed into the 30's. Remember $1.61 a gallon gas? Oil then recovered and has been bouncing around a $100 a barrel for the past three years.

[DCL]

What are you talking about?

http://www.businessinsider.in/photo/45467577/Oil-Prices-Are-Cratering-But-So-Is-The-Price-Of-Gas.jpg

Oil was over $140 a barrel in 2008 because the dollar was a bit weak. Then during the financial crisis it crashed into the 30's. Remember $1.61 a gallon gas? Oil then recovered and has been bouncing around a $100 a barrel for the past three years.

and those were near all-time high historical averages over durational period. i kinda had an idea you might throw that out, but the 140 and low point were blips and didn't stay there very long during an exremely volatile market phase, like a guy dropping 50points one night or 6 points on another when he averages 27. but the following years were all consistently high range territory, without the hiccups, if you pull down the full chart to compare.

but don't tell me you thought 3.80/gallon was cheap just because you paid $4/gallon for a month in 2008?!? (unless you were living in europe...) for the most part, oil has been expensive till recently.

and the real point of that post was that oil prices had been on the high side for awhile despite the global slowdown, and this global slowdown was certainly more than 5 weeks ago when oil price plummeted.

also, you can resize and shrink your image if you use tinypic.com

[KevinNYC]

and the real point of that post was that oil prices had been on the high side for awhile despite the global slowdown, and this global slowdown was certainly more than 5 weeks ago when oil price plummeted.
I think we are talking about different slowdowns. I talking about say the last 9 months or so. Germany's demand for oil was down 6% in the second quarter of 2014 compared to the previous year. This slowdown occurred as supply of oil seemed steady and increasing. The plummet five weeks ago was the culmination of a trend that started way more than 5 weeks ago

Oil Prices are Having a Brutal Summer. (http://www.businessinsider.com/oil-prices-brutal-summer-2014-8)


As for Oil being high in 2003 we had a war in a major oil producing country at the same time that China and India were growing
http://www.usfunds.com/media/images/investor-alert/-2011-ia/2011-10-28/COMM-NumberChinaVehiclesGrowingRapidly-10282011.gif


thanks on the tinypic

[KevinNYC]

Ruble is back under 60 to the dollar. Russia has been spending its hard currency reserves to support the ruble. It's been working so far.



However, Russians have been looking to convert their cheaper rubles into hard goods. So much so that Apple and GM have suspended shipping new products to Russia.


Well-known brands such as Apple and IKEA have had to suspend sales and increased prices over recent weeks as they struggle to keep up with the falling value of the currency, while car companies including General Motors, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Audi have all suspended shipments to the country.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-ikea-mcdonalds-raise-prices-in-russia-due-to-ruble-falls-2014-12#ixzz3MMM4tmOF The head of Nissan has said this has been a bloodbath for car makers.

[KevinNYC]

Ruble is back under 60 to the dollar. Russia has been spending its hard currency reserves to support the ruble. It's been working so far.

Ruble down to 54 to the dollar. Big day today.

Oil price went up and then the Saudi's announced they and other OPEC members might increase production and it went back down.

Russia just bailed out it's first bank.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russian-minister-talks-ruble-27758538

[Dresta]

So you endorse this kind of economic terrorism do you Kevin? You still gonna do so when the ripples start affecting European economies? Have you completely forgotten what kind of economic conditions usher in the worst of possible leaders? In your gloating over the debauchment of the rouble have you forgotten that it was the destruction of the German mark that led to the election of Hitler?

Jesus Christ western political leaders are ****ing retarded. They are going to create another bloodbath completely needlessly. What they are doing with the Saudi's to cripple Russia is pretty disgraceful. The Russian people have undergone enough hardship (more than your sheltered existence could imagine), and now you consider yourself morally justified in heaping on more misery? How conceited, how inhuman. And the way you gloat over it... urgh..

People like you make me want to vomit.

[CeltsGarlic]

Chinas token support is pretty big in these conditions.

[Godzuki]

So you endorse this kind of economic terrorism do you Kevin? You still gonna do so when the ripples start affecting European economies? Have you completely forgotten what kind of economic conditions usher in the worst of possible leaders? In your gloating over the debauchment of the rouble have you forgotten that it was the destruction of the German mark that led to the election of Hitler?

Jesus Christ western political leaders are ****ing retarded. They are going to create another bloodbath completely needlessly. What they are doing with the Saudi's to cripple Russia is pretty disgraceful. The Russian people have undergone enough hardship (more than your sheltered existence could imagine), and now you consider yourself morally justified in heaping on more misery? How conceited, how inhuman. And the way you gloat over it... urgh..

People like you make me want to vomit.


lol how do u not blame Putin? :confusedshrug:

most countries, even China, aren't happy with Putin's actions in Ukraine, much less his needless provocations with the west. its not just the US, he's as bad as NKorea right now. Russian people are fukking themselves over with their high approval ratings of him while he leads them into isolation from the world. he'll be ousted sooner or later.

big deal he has Iran and India in his corner. they ain't shit. US/Europe pretty much run the world thru financials and world economy. and good luck having happy people in a country with no American/European goods with currency that is having less and less value throughout the world.

[GimmeThat]

Less reasons for safety and security concerns

[Dresta]

lol how do u not blame Putin? :confusedshrug:

most countries, even China, aren't happy with Putin's actions in Ukraine, much less his needless provocations with the west. its not just the US, he's as bad as NKorea right now. Russian people are fukking themselves over with their high approval ratings of him while he leads them into isolation from the world. he'll be ousted sooner or later.

big deal he has Iran and India in his corner. they ain't shit. US/Europe pretty much run the world thru financials and world economy. and good luck having happy people in a country with no American/European goods with currency that is having less and less value throughout the world.
You have it the wrong way round. It is the West that is provoking Russia and Putin (despite repeated warnings against it) through NATO and EU expansion

People need to seriously get over their Russia neuroses: this isn't the Cold War. It's not a Communist nation anymore; it's actually become somewhat conservative and reasonably sensible, and wasn't doing too bad before this attempt to crash it. Remember, it was a conservative country before the Bolsheviks: its most loved writers were Dostoevsky and Tolstoi. It has a rich and proud cultural history so why are we treating it like dirt, with the respect usually accorded Iran or N. Korea? It could be a useful ally, one we should have supported in the 90s rather than plundering.

Russians have every right to distrust and not want a Western military alliance camped on its borders (not to mention the repeated agreements that NATO would not expand eastwards). How would you like it if there was an expansionist military force on the Candian border? What if America had been invaded from that direction twice in the past century resulting in the death of around 50 million Americans? How would you react then? Try to put things into perspective

The real question is are you willing to go to war over Ukraine? Because Russia is and Russians are. Are you willing to risk another European bloodbath for a country containing a lot of ethnic Russians and that is really none of your business? You know Russia could have done the same thing as it has done with Ukraine with the Baltic states? But it allowed it on the presumed trust that the same thing would not happen in Ukraine, a borderline failed state as it is. You willing to lose them too?

[DCL]

Oil price went up and then the Saudi's announced they and other OPEC members might increase production and it went back down.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russian-minister-talks-ruble-27758538

there's a lot of funny business going on.

[Dresta]

there's a lot of funny business going on.
What do you think? Americans and Saudis conspiring to take down the Russian economy. Saudis are still pissed at Russia for their support for the Assad regime (where Obama refuses to admit how wrong he was) and this is revenge.

[DCL]

What do you think? Americans and Saudis conspiring to take down the Russian economy. Saudis are still pissed at Russia for their support for the Assad regime (where Obama refuses to admit how wrong he was) and this is revenge.

the saudis have always sorta been the most unlikely buttbuddies with washington. both have strong motives to take down russia. makes no sense for saudis to bring down oil to cut their own revenues. if they were really doing it to attack US oil companies, you'd see retaliation from washington immediately, so i don't buy that one at all. the most logical explanation to me is that it is a collaboration for economic warfare on russia. these games have been played before too, so it's not the first time.

[KevinNYC]

So you endorse this kind of economic terrorism do you Kevin? You still gonna do so when the ripples start affecting European economies? Have you completely forgotten what kind of economic conditions usher in the worst of possible leaders? In your gloating over the debauchment of the rouble have you forgotten that it was the destruction of the German mark that led to the election of Hitler?

Jesus Christ western political leaders are ****ing retarded. They are going to create another bloodbath completely needlessly. What they are doing with the Saudi's to cripple Russia is pretty disgraceful. The Russian people have undergone enough hardship (more than your sheltered existence could imagine), and now you consider yourself morally justified in heaping on more misery? How conceited, how inhuman. And the way you gloat over it... urgh..

People like you make me want to vomit.
Wipe the froth from your mouth, take your medication and then reread this thread and point out where I was "gloating."

Your history is a little skewed too. The destruction of the mark in 1923 led to Hitler ruling Germany by 1933?

By the end of 1923 Hitler was arrested for treason and was convicted in 1924. If the German courts/politicians hadn't given him special treatment, he would have gone to prison for a lot longer than he did. So you can say the rise of Hiter was due to pro-Nazi politicians

But if you actually look at the economics and timeline. Hitler did not come to power during or immediately after the days of hyperinflation. So what was the effect of the introduction of the Rentenmark and then the Reichsmark stabilizing of Germany's currency and economy in 1924 on the rise of Hitler?

Why was the second half of 1920's called the Golden Age of Weinmar or the "Goldene Zwanziger?" Why was the Nazi's political power declining in the second half of the 1920's with them winning almost three times more seats the Reichstag in 1924 than they did 1928? Did the Nazi actually come to power during a period of inflation or deflation?

[Godzuki]

You have it the wrong way round. It is the West that is provoking Russia and Putin (despite repeated warnings against it) through NATO and EU expansion

People need to seriously get over their Russia neuroses: this isn't the Cold War. It's not a Communist nation anymore; it's actually become somewhat conservative and reasonably sensible, and wasn't doing too bad before this attempt to crash it. Remember, it was a conservative country before the Bolsheviks: its most loved writers were Dostoevsky and Tolstoi. It has a rich and proud cultural history so why are we treating it like dirt, with the respect usually accorded Iran or N. Korea? It could be a useful ally, one we should have supported in the 90s rather than plundering.

Russians have every right to distrust and not want a Western military alliance camped on its borders (not to mention the repeated agreements that NATO would not expand eastwards). How would you like it if there was an expansionist military force on the Candian border? What if America had been invaded from that direction twice in the past century resulting in the death of around 50 million Americans? How would you react then? Try to put things into perspective

The real question is are you willing to go to war over Ukraine? Because Russia is and Russians are. Are you willing to risk another European bloodbath for a country containing a lot of ethnic Russians and that is really none of your business? You know Russia could have done the same thing as it has done with Ukraine with the Baltic states? But it allowed it on the presumed trust that the same thing would not happen in Ukraine, a borderline failed state as it is. You willing to lose them too?


just like Ukraine has every right to join the European Union. they're a sovereign nation, they're not part of the USSR anymore. you can't treat them like Russia owns them.

lets also not forget shooting down the Malaysian airliiner, and how poorly Putin handled that in spite of world leaders. That is not even just the west who were affected by that tragedy, it was many different countries.

Then there are his provocations sending a war ship to take him to a UN meeting. Having war ships on stand by. Using submarines to recon Swedish waters. Russian war planes breaching UK air space, provoking US war ships, etc, etc..

There is so much Putin is responsible for regarding the ill will towards him which equates to Russia, its ridiculous to blame anyone but Putin/Russa in this. Russian people have high approval ratings of Putin, therefore they will live and die together unless they oust him. They have no one to blame but themselves.

and this is all based on Putin/Russia's paranoia, along with conspiracy theorist notions, that the west wants to take over Russia because of Ukraine wanting to join a thriving economy.

[Godzuki]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/350/681/6d7.jpg


good argument terrorist sympathizer :applause:

[Godzuki]

Meh Islamic nutters are just as dangerous to the world as American soldiers. Both groups are terrorists and im happy when both are dying. :cheers:


not really, only to internet conspiracy theorists :sleeping

ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban killing kids for getting educations, chopping off heads for not being muslim, raping and owning females they capture, etc. etc. are far worse than anything US troops have done in recent memory.

funny how WE, the US, are leading the charge against them, leading the world in helping their victims, sending special forces for a country's people we have nothing to do with to recover their kidnapped girls, and the thanks we get is retards painting us just as bad :rolleyes: only on the internets full of schizo paranoid conspiracy theorists that don't have a clue... :facepalm

[Godzuki]

You mean after creating and funding them in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: . We should give you guys a parade. And while were at it we will hold one for the Germans for ending the use of gas chambers.


its funny how you internet conspiracy theorists always revisionist initial intentions to fit your conspiracy agendas in hindsight. Never truthful, always disingenuous, forever twisting history to paint your conspiracy picture :facepalm

sure, we wanted Bin Ladin to head Al Qaeda and be the mastermind behind 9/11 years after we helped Afghan rebels against Communist invasion :rolleyes:

sure we wanted ISIS to form and take over Iraq, the country we poured billions of dollars into rebuilding, all for nothing...and then to commit all of these atrocities was our master plan :rolleyes:

there is sooo much wrong with so much of the stuff a lot of you conspiracy idiots say here its unbelievable you all keep stickiing to your agenda when its so unrealistic to common sense reality.

[Godzuki]

Half of Ukraine doesn't want to join the EU, and the half that does overthrew the government. Not exactly a democratic method.


i don't think its exactly half and half, and a lot of it was after Russia's influencing,. it was democratically voted on i believe with democratically elected officials wanting to join.

even the U.S. is almost 50/50 on issues and voting parties, but we at least we all go along reluctantly with those elected into office.

[Godzuki]

pbr on a roll. about to double my moneys :pimp: