A PRIME Walton vs a PRIME Sabonis

[LAZERUSS]

Who you got?

[T_L_P]

When comparing skilled big men, you always take the white guy.

[LAZERUSS]

When comparing skilled big men, you always take the white guy.

Well then...Dave Cowens it is...

[FatComputerNerd]

This is about the hardest matchup one could make. They were both so good, and rather similar in several ways.

I think I take Sabonis personally. VERY close though.

[LAZERUSS]

Easily Walton.

Slightly related...I wouldn't think twice about taking a prime McAdoo over a prime Sabonis, either.

[SpanishACB]

if you ask Walton, he'd say Sabonis

he always speaks in those Sabonis documentaries and he claims Sabonis was the best C he ever saw play or would of been bar injuries or whatever

[LAZERUSS]

if you ask Walton, he'd say Sabonis

he always speaks in those Sabonis documentaries and he claims Sabonis was the best C he ever saw play

He must have had amnesia then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w

BTW, KAJ also hung games of 48 and 50 points on Walton, as well.

[SpanishACB]

He must have had amnesia then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w

BTW, KAJ also hung games of 48 and 50 points on Walton, as well.

i edited it anyway but sure:

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wheres_Walton__Day_15.html


The lineage then continued to Arvydas Sabonis, who was the second greatest young player I ever saw after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

he follows


He was 19 years old and played like a 7-3 Larry Bird, running like the wind, shooting threes, dribbling like Magic Johnson, rebounding like Wilt Chamberlain and blocking shots like Bill Russell.

regardless of the hyperbole, sabonis was 30/20 at the half in a european championship game against grown profesionals...

[Psileas]

if you ask Walton, he'd say Sabonis

he always speaks in those Sabonis documentaries and he claims Sabonis was the best C he ever saw play or would of been bar injuries or whatever

By saying so, he'd imply that Sabonis would be the greatest overall player he's ever seen, since he's also claimed that Jabbar was the greatest overall player he's ever faced, including Jordan, Magic, Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

i edited it anyway but sure:

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wheres_Walton__Day_15.html

Artis Gilmore generally gave Walton all he could handle, as well.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=waltobi01

and I wonder if Sabonis could have accomplished this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4

http://www.artisgilmore.com/imgs_2/Artishomeimg_sml.jpg


BTW, Robert Parish played against both Gilmore and Shaq, and guess which one he claimed was stronger?

[Psileas]

(I just saw the edit)

[SpanishACB]

Artis Gilmore generally gave Walton all he could handle, as well.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=waltobi01

and I wonder if Sabonis could have accomplished this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4

http://www.artisgilmore.com/imgs_2/Artishomeimg_sml.jpg


BTW, Robert Parish played against both Gilmore and Shaq, and guess which one he claimed was stronger?

why do you suggenly bring Gilmore to the conversation and pretend blocking a skyhook is some sort of a relevant point in this conversation?

you don't need an excuse to talk about a random old player, but this is not much of a conversation if you don't stick to an actual topic and reply with different shit every time.

[LAZERUSS]

i edited it anyway but sure:

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wheres_Walton__Day_15.html



he follows



regardless of the hyperbole, sabonis was 30/20 at the half in a european championship game against grown profesionals...

just as a sidenote, who averaged more ppg in their Euro careers, Sabonis, or a 36-42 year old McAdoo?

And how about this...

http://www.euroleague.net/features/voices/2011-2012/vladimir-stankovic/i/93850/6180/bob-mcadoo-the-nba-and-european-champ

[QUOTE]McAdoo played in Milan until 1990. The two following years he played in Forli with averages of 31.7 points and 9.6 rebounds. He put an end to his career in Teamsystem Fabriano in 1992-93 at 42 years old. Over seven seasons in Italy, he played 201 games, scored 5,427 points (27.3 ppg.) and averaged 9.0 boards per game. He won the Italian League twice, the Italian Cup once and one Intercontinental cup

[LAZERUSS]

why do you suggenly bring Gilmore to the conversation and pretend blocking a skyhook is some sort of a relevant point in this conversation?

you don't need an excuse to talk about a random old player, but this is not much of a conversation if you don't stick to an actual topic and reply with different shit every time.

Basically because you claimed that Walton said that Sabonis was the best (well, second best player) he ever saw.

Hell, and OLD Gilmore, covering TEN straight H2H's with a young Hakeem, averaged 24 ppg on a .677 FG% against Olajuwon.

I don't think there is any question that a prime Gilmore would have had his way with a prime Arvydas.

[LAZERUSS]

To be honest, Sabonis is one of the most over-rated players on this forum.

I could come up with a LONG list of NBA centers, and in their primes, that I would take over a prime Arvydas.

[LAZERUSS]

I think a closer comparison would be a prime Dave Cowens and a prime Sabonis.

And I likely would take Cowens.

[SpanishACB]

that's most likely because the only footage you've seen is of a washed up injured Sabonis

[LAZERUSS]

that's most likely because the only footage you've seen is of a washed up injured Sabonis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUz3C0p-Yso

A young, skinny Robinson, at nowhere near his peak, outplayed what was probably a peak Sabonis.

BTW, Robinson was CLEARLY more athletic.

[LAZERUSS]

Russell
Thurmond
Reed
Lanier
Gilmore
McAdoo
Walton
Cowens
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
KAJ
Wilt

That's a start, and I likely would take players like Cowens and Hayes over a prime Sabonis, as well.

There are probably some that I unintentionally left out, too.

[SouBeachTalents]

Russell
Thurmond
Reed
Lanier
Gilmore
McAdoo
Walton
Cowens
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
KAJ
Wilt

That's a start, and I likely would take players like Cowens and Hayes over a prime Sabonis, as well.

There are probably some that I unintentionally left out, too.

Hakeem's a pretty big omission

[Uncle Drew]

I could come up with a LONG list of NBA centers, and in their primes, that I would take over a prime Arvydas.
Based on what?

[LAZERUSS]

Hakeem's a pretty big omission

Oh yes...thanks.

I did a quick list in my head.

[LAZERUSS]

Based on what?

Based on what we know.

A nowhere near his prime Robinson outplayed a peak Sabonis. And a decade later he was wiping the floor with him.

Shaq just crushed Robinson, Hakeem, and Ewing in his career H2H's, and destroyed an old Sabonis.

McAdoo at age 40 was a better scorer in the Euroleague than Sabonis ever was.

A 39 year old Kareem annihilated a 24 year old Hakeem in their H2H's.

An aging Thurmond outplayed a PEAK Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and overall, in their career H2H's, held a PEAK KAJ to a .447 FG%.

Moses just pounded Kareem in their 40 career H2H's.

A prime Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the same centers that a PEAK Kareem faced.

[SpanishACB]

you make arguments based off one game or on even one action of the game and don't feel silly when you make those big posts?

by the way, the thread is now about wilt

[LAZERUSS]

you make arguments based off one game or on even one action of the game and don't feel silly when you make those big posts?

by the way, the thread is now about wilt

Not at all. It's about ALL of the truly great centers. And a prime Sabonis would be well down that list.

[Uncle Drew]

A nowhere near his prime Robinson outplayed a peak Sabonis..
You mean the game in '88 when Sabonis just came back from an achilles tendon injury?


And a decade later he was wiping the floor with him.
You mean when Sabonis finally decided to come to the NBA, while being broken down, and it being a miracle for him to basically walk, let alone play?

[LAZERUSS]

You mean the game in '88 when Sabonis just came back from an achilles tendon injury?


Alright...tell us exactly when this "peak" Sabonis ever played a game, then. And please give us the list of true NBA centers that he outplayed in that time frame.

[Uncle Drew]

Alright...tell us exactly when this "peak" Sabonis ever played a game
I don't know. If you don't mind, I wasn't watching European basketball in the 80's. I'm just keeping to the facts.

But comparing a broken down player to Shaq, the most dominant ever, and, at his peak, the greatest to ever play, seems pretty unfair to me.

[SpanishACB]

Alright...tell us exactly when this "peak" Sabonis ever played a game, then. And please give us the list of true NBA centers that he outplayed in that time frame.

there was no peak sabonis in the NBA, I thought american NBA fans were aware of this?

there was just a broken down player, think of Kobe, just worse, doing what Duncan has been doing the past couple of years with added range

[LAZERUSS]

I don't know, If you don't mind, I wasn't watching European basketball in the 80's. I'm just keeping to the facts.

But comparing a broken down player to Shaq, the most dominant ever, and, at his peak, the greatest to ever play, seems pretty unfair to me.

You asked me, "based on what?"

I responded by what we KNOW.

Show us a peak Sabonis dominating someone of the calibre of a peak David Robinson.

Was Sabonis an outstanding NBA center? Yes, even a well past his peak Arvydas played well in his short NBA career. But there are those here who would have us believe that he was a Top-10 center of all-time. I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.

[Uncle Drew]

I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.
No one does. At the time Sabonis really was at his peak, without injuries, most people didn't even know he existed. Guess he's just as mythical as Wilt was.

[SpanishACB]

You asked me, "based on what?"

I responded by what we KNOW.

Show us a peak Sabonis dominating someone of the calibre of a peak David Robinson.

Was Sabonis an outstanding NBA center? Yes, even a well past his peak Arvydas played well in his short NBA career. But there are those here who would have us believe that he was a Top-10 center of all-time. I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.

you need all this h2h and arbitrary bullshit to rate a player it's as if you cannot simply watch the game and understand it

go get some actual pre-injury Sabonis footage, now, regardless of this dominance stat you talk about, regardless of h2h and who he blocked and who he didn't, can't you realize the level, ability and overall game of the guy is only matched by the likes of Larry Bird and never seen in the C position?

sure, he was playing in the European competitions when he was healthy, which at the time was closer to the NBA than you most likely realize, but there weren't as many phisical specimens, either way, how that's stopping you from admiring a player of this caliber is amazing.

hating on sabonis doesn't do wilt any good, so i'm not sure what your goal is here

[LAZERUSS]

No one does. At the time Sabonis really was at his peak, without injuries, most people didn't even know he existed. Guess he's just as mythical as Wilt was.

We KNOW how dominant Chamberlain was.

Just take a look at the NBA RECORD BOOK. And yes, we have a TON of evidence of a prime Chamberlain just CRUSHING the best centers of his era, including Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy. Even an OLD Wilt was outplaying centers like McAdoo and Lanier. And we have video footage of the '72 NBA-ABA All-Star game, in which a 36 year old Wilt was outplaying a young Gilmore.

[Uncle Drew]

We KNOW how dominant Chamberlain was.

Just take a look at the NBA RECORD BOOK. And yes, we have a TON of evidence of a prime Chamberlain just CRUSHING the best centers of his era, including Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy. Even an OLD Wilt was outplaying centers like McAdoo and Lanier. And we have video footage of the '72 NBA-ABA All-Star game, in which a 36 year old Wilt was outplaying a young Gilmore.
Relax dude, I was just joking, no need to jump out of your panties bro.

[Rose]

Walton.

[bizil]

In the all around sense, Walton is as good of a center who has EVER PLAYED. He combined rebounding, scoring, passing, and defense better than any center. Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, and Robinson would round out my top five in the all around sense. I haven't seen enough of Sabonis in his prime on film for me to take him above Walton. But for Sabonis to be 7'3 and do the things he could do at a young age, I CERTAINLY don't think he was far off from Walton.

But once again, Sabonis was doing that in the Euroleague while Walton was doing it in the greatest basketball league of all time. So I gotta go Big Bill easily one of the ten greatest centers peak wise of all time. In many ways, he was like Duncan but ACTUALLY labeled a center as his primary position.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Never watched a prime sabonis, but judging how good an old (and presumably much more than when he was in his prime) Sabonis was in the NBA, probably Sabonis.

[robert de niro]

sabonis of course

[colts19]

I take Walton, just due to the fact that I have stated many time. There is no player that I enjoyed watching as much as Bill.

[iznogood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUz3C0p-Yso

A young, skinny Robinson, at nowhere near his peak, outplayed what was probably a peak Sabonis.

BTW, Robinson was CLEARLY more athletic.

No way Robinson outplayed Sabonis. I thought they were pretty evenly matched. 2 very different players though. Robinson is clearly more athletic and a miss match for Sabonis in terms of quickness. Sabonis did however play after a bad injury which made him look pretty slow, but even fully healthy he wasn't the athlete Robinson was. He was, however, more skilled and much smarter at the time and in my opinion a better player.

Also I think they didn't go enough one against another to suggest one outplayed the other. The Soviets run their game through high post and didn't even run post ups for Sabonis the way team USA did for Robinson and Reed.

Robinson was the more active player of the two in terms of attacking the basket, but didn't score much directly against Sabonis. He did some damage in the first half, but he only made one left hook in the post against Sabonis. He missed one Sabonis contested and then he also made one of the free throw jumpers Sabonis let him take all game (took only 2 though). Robinson did block Sabonis' hook though and got to the line out of a post up situation once. He didn't even play much in the second half because he was in foul trouble. He only scored 3 points in the second half. The first came of the free throw line 7 minutes before the game ended. He scored the other after offensive rebound when Sabonis was completely exhausted and couldn't rebound anymore and Robinson came straight of the bench.

Sabonis on the other hand displayed elite playmaking, passing and rebounding. He was also the only Soviet player who could somehow deal with athleticism of Reed and Robinson and also played heavy minutes. He blocked a great amount of shots as well. I think he blocked more shots than the Whole US team combined (or at least very close).

The most important in my opinion, Sabonis was huge in securing the victory for his team. He grabbed key rebounds and made a couple of great passes that allowed for easy USSR baskets. He also contested Majerle's shot which would've tied the game and tipped it to one of his team mates for a rebound and also made a very nice inside pass to Rimas Kurtinaitis that led to 2 free throws.

You can see how important Sabonis' rim protection was when he was in foul trouble at the end of the game and USA almost makes a comeback. One could watch the end of the game and say Sabonis was awful on defense, but in my opinion this is a showcase of how important he really was to his team and how high his basketball IQ was. Both gassed and in foul trouble he made a couple of defensive plays that won them the game.

[DatAsh]

I'll take the guy who was better than Kareem at his absolute peak. Only Wilt, Shaq, and Jordan are definitively better at their peaks. Sabonis was really good though, but still 2-3 tiers below a peak Walton.

[oarabbus]

You asked me, "based on what?"

I responded by what we KNOW.

Show us a peak Sabonis dominating someone of the calibre of a peak David Robinson.

Was Sabonis an outstanding NBA center? Yes, even a well past his peak Arvydas played well in his short NBA career. But there are those here who would have us believe that he was a Top-10 center of all-time. I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.




When we're talking about Wilt, there's specific excuses to get Wilt off the hook for EVERY single postseason failure. But for Sabonis, he simply just wasn't that good past his prime :oldlol:

[quote]

[iznogood]

When we're talking about Wilt, there's specific excuses to get Wilt off the hook for EVERY single postseason failure. But for Sabonis, he simply just wasn't that good past his prime :oldlol:





Anyway, Sabonis was one awesome bastard.





Boss:pimp:
Excellent!:applause:

Sabonis must've been one of the most hated basketball players ever in Europe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N1fbNAPeB4
Here the Croatian commentator calls him "well known scumbag, enemy of the sport" numerous times. :roll: When he is out of the game and sits on the bench the commentator also notes that Sabonis shouldn't even be allowed in the arena, not only on the court.

I used to hate Sabonis so much for shitting on my team over and over. But he was an amazing player.

[Sakkreth]

Walton was special, but come on...

[Psileas]

Excellent!:applause:

Sabonis must've been one of the most hated basketball players ever in Europe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N1fbNAPeB4
Here the Croatian commentator calls him "well known scumbag, enemy of the sport" numerous times. :roll: When he is out of the game and sits on the bench the commentator also notes that Sabonis shouldn't even be allowed in the arena, not only on the court.

I used to hate Sabonis so much for shitting on my team over and over. But he was an amazing player.

In Croatia, no doubt. After plays like this, every opposing player becomes hated. In Europe, though, I think that's exaggerated, I don't remember Sabonis ever being hated all over the continent for any reason.

[iznogood]

Maybe I was wrong saying he was hated all over Europe. But he was very hated across the whole Yugoslavia for sure. The rivalry against USSR was strong and Sabonis was both dominating and also pretty dirty (most of the players were these days), arguing referees and a lot of stuff I normally hate when a player on the opposing team does it. I think he also got some Shaq treatment from the refs in his Real Madrid years.

[RoseCity07]

To be honest, Sabonis is one of the most over-rated players on this forum.

I could come up with a LONG list of NBA centers, and in their primes, that I would take over a prime Arvydas.

A Sabonis with 0 mobility was guarding prime Shaq better than any center in the league. Shaq was having some truly awful games against Portland in the WCFs. Shaq wasn't doing much in game 7 until Sabonis got in foul trouble.

One game 23 points, one game 17 points.

Held Shaq to 17 points in game 7 of the WCFs in 2000. Sabonis fouled out at the 33:00 mark while Shaq played 47 minutes. Imagine if Sabonis had played more minutes. Sabonis was a problem.

[KungFuJoe]

Sabonis might have been the greatest center ever in Europe, but as far as the NBA is concerned, he was just a decent to good big man. A step up from guys like Rik Smits but many tiers below the likes of Shaq and Robinson.

And I watched him play.

[LAZERUSS]

A Sabonis with 0 mobility was guarding prime Shaq better than any center in the league. Shaq was having some truly awful games against Portland in the WCFs. Shaq wasn't doing much in game 7 until Sabonis got in foul trouble.

One game 23 points, one game 17 points.

Held Shaq to 17 points in game 7 of the WCFs in 2000. Sabonis fouled out at the 33:00 mark while Shaq played 47 minutes. Imagine if Sabonis had played more minutes. Sabonis was a problem.

Not sure what your point is here.

Sure Sabonis, and with a TON of help, gave Shaq some problems. Did he ever come close to outplaying him? Hell no.

BTW, in game one, Shaq also played 47 minutes, and Sabonis also played 33 minutes:

Sabonis: 0 points, 0-4 FG/FGA, 1 reb, 2 ast, 0 blks, 4 PFs.
Shaq: 41 points, 14-25 FG/FGA, 11 rebs, 7 ast, 5 blks, 2 PFs.

After that game, Portland pretty much went to a Hack-a-Shaq because they knew they had no way of handling Shaq.

And in their career matchups, Shaq had several 40+ point games against Sabonis, including a high of 46.

I realize that this was an old Sabonis, but we don't have any evidence to suggest that he could have ever outplayed Shaq. The two went at H2H in a total of 21 regular season games, and another 18 playoff games from 1996 to 2003, and Sabonis never even once outscored O'Neal. And the vast majority were one-sided beatdowns, and in virtually every major category.

In their very first meeting in 1996, Shaq poured in 41 points. And in their very first playoff H2H in 1997 O'Neal shelled him with 46 points.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that Sabonis was ever a better center than the many I already mentioned. Possibly more skilled in at least some areas? Sure. But not in enough for me to believe that he was a better center than any of them.


As a sidenote...unless my center is consistently hitting 35-40+% of his 3pt attempts, he is almost useless to me as a three-point shooter (maybe late in a close game.) The average center is going to shoot 50% from the floor, and the better one's are at .550-600+. And standing 25 ft out pretty much eliminates any offensive rebounding.

That is why I think Thon Maker's high school coach needs to have his head examined. He has a seven-footer who is shooting 29% from the arc. Instead of developing his post-up skills, he has the kid dribbling around from 30 feet.

[LAZERUSS]

Sabonis might have been the greatest center ever in Europe, but as far as the NBA is concerned, he was just a decent to good big man. A step up from guys like Rik Smits but many tiers below the likes of Shaq and Robinson.

And I watched him play.

There you go.

:applause:

That has been my point all along.

[LAZERUSS]

As for Walton, and in his prime (short as it was), he was skilled an all-around center as there has ever been.

And again, we have footage, articles, and statistical breakdowns which prove that he was among the best to have ever played the center position.

From the limited footage we have of Sabonis, I don't see Walton having any problems with Arvydas.

Interesting too, that Walton easily outplayed the 7-2 Tommy Burleson in their historic meeting in the '73-74 NCAA semis. And Burleson was a solid player in his college career. He was a 19-13 .520 player, who had a 38 point tournament game. In fact, he was the ACC tournament MVP in both '73 and '74...and keep in mind that he had a teammate by the name of David Thompon. In their H2H in the semi's, Walton outscored Burleson, 29-20; outrebounded Burleson, 18-14; and outshot him from the floor, 13-21 to 9-20.

And before anyone scoffs at Burleson's NBA career, it was quickly cut short by injuries. Still, in his two playoff runs, he averaged 21-10 .542.

In any case, I don't have any reason to believe that Sabonis' height would have been a major problem for Walton.

[FatComputerNerd]

Sabonis dunking all over Robinson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

[kurple]

There you go.

:applause:

That has been my point all along.
ignoring the fact that PRIME Sabonis didnt play in the NBA

[Dresta]

Honestly, he looks like a bit of a monster; Lazerus clearly downplaying the guy to prop up his idols from the 60s, as per.

[LAZERUSS]

Honestly, he looks like a bit of a monster; Lazerus clearly downplaying the guy to prop up his idols from the 60s, as per.

And as usual, you provide zero research or knowledge in your response, ... as per.

[SpanishACB]

Honestly, he looks like a bit of a monster; Lazerus clearly downplaying the guy to prop up his idols from the 60s, as per.

but why does he have these idols?

He's clearly not very old, since he still carries the child insecurities that force him to make these threads, if only to reinforce his obscure opinions about american centers playing in the NBA in the 60s...

there are a million things he could have chosen to try and find that identiy of his he struggles so much with. Why such a weird one? Why not just run with a favorite player, pokemon and music type like other kids do?

[Dresta]

And as usual, you provide zero research or knowledge in your response, ... as per.
I just watched the video dipshit. Why would i provide research or knowledge when i neither know or care about Sabonis? All i know is that you're continuously plugging an agenda, and using selective statistics and correlations to do so - all your use of statistics is biased in favour of that agenda. Your bias is so instilled that you don't even notice it despite it being so blatantly obvious to everyone else on this site.

You are a tiresome bore who has some serious obsession with the 1960s, and can't make a single post not somehow marred by this idiotic nostalgia.

[LAZERUSS]

I just watched the video dipshit. Why would i provide research or knowledge when i neither know or care about Sabonis? All i know is that you're continuously plugging an agenda, and using selective statistics and correlations to do so - all your use of statistics is biased in favour of that agenda. Your bias is so instilled that you don't even notice it despite it being so blatantly obvious to everyone else on this site.

You are a tiresome bore who has some serious obsession with the 1960s, and can't make a single post not somehow marred by this idiotic nostalgia.

Coming from you this means nothing to me. You are a worthless POS poster who provides nothing to this forum.

[Dresta]

but why does he have these idols?

He's clearly not very old, since he still carries the child insecurities that force him to make these threads, if only to reinforce his obscure opinions about american centers playing in the NBA in the 60s...

there are a million things he could have chosen to try and find that identiy of his he struggles so much with. Why such a weird one? Why not just run with a favorite player, pokemon and music type like other kids do?
I honestly don't know whether he's a kid with too much time on his hands or an old man who forgot to get himself a life of his own; i hope it's not the latter as that'd just be hella sad.

[ImKobe]

And as usual, you provide zero research or knowledge in your response, ... as per.

Why not just admit your bias? Are you trying to deny that you're not biased towards the players from that era?

[LAZERUSS]

Why not just admit your bias? Are you trying to deny that you're not biased towards the players from that era?


I have posted this before, but here it is again...

MY all-time list...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J
14. Oscar
15. West

Some of those are very close and interchangeable.

Does that look like a bias towards the 60's?

[Dresta]

Coming from you this means nothing to me. You are a worthless POS poster who provides nothing to this forum.
Sorry, what's a POS? I don't speak your whatever language it is you are babbling in.

Every time 90% of ISHs sees one of your dumbass threads they roll their eyes, trust me on that. It's funny because you take yourself so seriously and yet no one takes you seriously.

[SpanishACB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhFq7QRC0I

http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/games/1988-09-28-USA-URS


if you choose to never press the first link then you might share the opinion of Lazarus here.

But that's called being ignorant by choice

[LAZERUSS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhFq7QRC0I

http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/games/1988-09-28-USA-URS


if you choose to never press the first link then you might share the opinion of Lazarus here.

But that's called being ignorant by choice

I posted the full game here earlier...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10778831&postcount=18

And there is absolutely no way that Sabonis outplayed Robinson in that game. Nor is that anywhere near a prime D-Rob either.

Maybe that wasn't a prime Sabonis, but YOU have NOT given me any footage of a Sabonis dominating a top-tier NBA center, either.

[SpanishACB]

but YOU have NOT given me any footage of a Sabonis dominating a top-tier NBA center, either.

give me footage of Wilt scoring 100 points

or wait, better! give me footage of Wilt dominating European competition! give me footage of Wilt dominating Joel Pryzbilla... there's none? Joel must've been better than Wilt then.

You're really something aren't you?

[Dresta]

I have posted this before, but here it is again...

MY all-time list...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J
14. Oscar
15. West

Some of those are very close and interchangeable.

Does that look like a bias towards the 60's?
My bad, it's just an obscene bias towards your man-God Wilt. All the other elevating of 60s players you do is a consequence of incessant need to elevate a guy who scraped two rings and threw away several more in his choking ways. Hack-a-Wilt in the NBA finals would be pretty much a guaranteed chip. You always go on about Thurmond's awesome defense, but the best defense against Wilt in the finals was the FT line. Yet this guy is the greatest basketball player ever? :lol It's so pathetic dude.

Probably one of his illegitimate kids, aren't you?

[Sakkreth]

Just now realised it's Lazeruss who started the thread :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

give me footage of Wilt scoring 100 points

or wait, better! give me footage of Wilt dominating European competition!

You're really something aren't you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

There are clips of Russell, Thurmond, and Kareem, in there. as well as many other great players.

If you want an extended version...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

If you want FACTS...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

And more...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

and even more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain


As for his "European competition", you are right, we don't have any footage. BUT, we do have this...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19740417&id=WJBYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XvgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7004,945936

and here was the quote:


"No letting up." Red told them. "Beat them as badly as you can." Then, turning to Russell, he pointed Radivoje Korac - star of the Yugoslav team, and Europe's leading scorer at the time. "He scores once and I'll have your head. I mean it, once."

When the game began, the Yugoslavs went straight to Korac as soon as they got the ball. He made a spin move on Russell, turned, and Russell blocked the shot, starting a fast break the other way. Five times, the Yugoslavs got the ball, five times, Russell blocked a shot. The sixth time down, Korac caught the ball thirty feet from the basket and, with Russell racing at him, heaved a shot that hit the side of the backboard and bounced away as the crowd hooted. The Americans are now up by twenty.

"Russell," Red screamed, "I'm gonna kill you! You let the guy hit the backboard!"

The next time Korac caught the ball, he tried to go up-and-under Russell, who slammed the ball back at him so hard it hit him in the head and bounced away. Completely exasperated, Korac grabbed the ball, kicked it into the stands, and was promptly ejected


If Russell was wiping the floor with the best of that era, imagine the carnage that Chamberlain would have left there...

[SpanishACB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

There are clips of Russell, Thurmond, and Kareem, in there. as well as many other great players.

If you want an extended version...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

If you want FACTS...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

And more...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

and even more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain


As for his "European competition", you are right, we don't have any footage. BUT, we do have this...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19740417&id=WJBYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XvgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7004,945936

and here was the quote:




If Russell was wiping the floor with the best of that era, imagine the carnage that Chamberlain would have left there...

You take a couple of youtube highlights (that make ANYONE look good), take after the game quotes, that only prove the opinion of one man and go on making absolutist analysis. It's so silly.

Go back read my post, did I mention anything about Wilt vs Russell?

You're starting to sound like the Euroleague account gimmick, you reply with the same shit over and over and don't pay attention to what people are actually saying...

I made a point, between the lines, but that's not clear enough for that spoon feeding habit of yours so here it goes: one can only beat those he's put against.

Simple enough, unless you're some sort of meta idiot who struggles with engaging in a two way conversation.

You don't build arguments from someone's quote after a game. You can't judge careers off 5 minutes of youtube clips. And no one gives a **** at the end of the day. But if you're gonna quote someone, make a worthwhile repoly, not the same broken record bullshit we've come to expect from you.

You sound like some ****ing nerd theoryzing about Goku vs Superman based on quotes from the comics and analyzing how wide the kamekamehaa is on TV and then comparing it to Superman's laser beam. It's the perfect analogy for your stupid "look at this picture, Wilt was clearly the strongest center alive" or "read this quote from this guy who said this once and everyone knows when someone says something on TV it becomes a fact"... I don't know how you manage on a daily basis, really.

[SpanishACB]

If Russell was wiping the floor with the best of that era, imagine the carnage that Chamberlain would have left there...

So wait, if the 76ers beat the Timberwolves and the Timberwolves beat the Cavalariers are the 76ers better than Lebron?

This school logic of yours, why don't you take it back to school?

Some players struggle or benefit against certain matchups. If Perkins stops Dwight but Frye scores 20 on Perkins it doesn't mean Frye is better than Dwight. Unless you don't watch games and realize the difference in the matchup. You would must likely run home showing us all this proof about Channing ****ing Frye being the best C in the league. That's the kind of thought process you follow.

[Dresta]

So wait, if the 76ers beat the Timberwolves and the Timberwolves beat the Cavalariers are the 76ers better than Lebron?

This school logic of yours, why don't you take it back to school?

Some players struggle or benefit against certain matchups. If Perkins stops Dwight but Frye scores 20 on Perkins it doesn't mean Frye is better than Dwight. Unless you don't watch games and realize the difference in the matchup. You would must likely run home showing us all this proof about Channing ****ing Frye being the best C in the league. That's the kind of thought process you follow.
haha, that's pretty much the logic he uses in every single argument he makes, and then he whines about others not bringing up 'facts' as if his 'facts' were eternal truths.

[YouGotServed]

You take a couple of youtube highlights (that make ANYONE look good), take after the game quotes, that only prove the opinion of one man and go on making absolutist analysis. It's so silly.

You're right. Next time he should upload full games saved to his hard drive. :biggums:


You don't build arguments from someone's quote after a game.

lol doe?


i edited it anyway but sure:
http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wher...n__Day_15.html
Quote: The lineage then continued to Arvydas Sabonis, who was the second greatest young player I ever saw after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

he follows
Quote: He was 19 years old and played like a 7-3 Larry Bird, running like the wind, shooting threes, dribbling like Magic Johnson, rebounding like Wilt Chamberlain and blocking shots like Bill Russell.

regardless of the hyperbole, sabonis was 30/20 at the half in a european championship game against grown profesionals...


...


You can't judge careers off 5 minutes of youtube clips.

lol doe?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhFq7QRC0I

http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/games/1988-09-28-USA-URS


if you choose to never press the first link then you might share the opinion of Lazarus here.

But that's called being ignorant by choice

You say we can't take clips or quotes, which you ended up doing anyway, to judge a player's career. Modern era players, understandable. Old school players, pretty much inevitable. So tell me, what makes you think Sabonis is a better player than Walton.

Remember, no YouTube clips or quotes are allowed. Enlighten us, oh wise one.

[SpanishACB]

:rant :rant :rant :rant :rant

I posted a FULL game not a highlight video that only shows the good plays of a player, do you understand the difference?

i never said Sabonis was better, just added a quote about one talking about the other, I thought it was relevant for the thread. Apparently, not as relevant as Wilt vs Russell for some reason.

before getting all defensive and turning on bullshit mode I suggest you actually read posts, which I trust you can, and then, here comes the hard part, try to put sense to words and understand what's written, in that order.

[YouGotServed]

that's a full game not a highlight video, do you understand the difference?

i never said Sabonis was better, just added a quote about one talking about the other, I thought it was relevant for the thread. Apparently, not as relevant as Wilt vs Russell for some reason.

No, I don't understand the difference. Please help me understand. You mean to tell me that's a full game!? I'm convinced. Let's ignore the other thousands of games these guys must have played.

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with Lazerus. Just pointing out the double standards in your argument. He has a point. None of us watched them live, so we go by what we know.

The f*ck else have you done besides post a video and one quote then go on about how we can't use it to judge a player's entire career? :oldlol:

[SpanishACB]

No, I don't understand the difference. Please help me understand. You mean to tell me that's a full game!? I'm convinced. Let's ignore the other thousands of games these guys must have played.

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with Lazerus. Just pointing out the double standards in your argument. He has a point. None of us watched them live, so we go by what we know.

The f*ck else have you done besides post a video and one quote then go on about how we can't use it to judge a player's entire career? :oldlol:

surely a person that couldn't cope with the first 3 pages of Dante's Inferno shouldn't be trying to play devil's advocate?

you don't understand how a higlight video is flawed in comparison to a full game specially when trying to judge how good a player could perform (very different from HOW HE USUALLY PERFORMS).

wanna defend an idiot? be my guest, but don't make simplistic comparisons just because you struggle with definitions. Of course we can only go by what we know, that's why our resident forum idiot should stop making imaginary arguments about how because A beat B and C beat A, C is better than B or when he goes into deep reflexion mode and tells us all about the difference in skill by judging 5 minutes of partial clips, highlights and a black and white photo; I didn't do any of this. I just tried to expose his weak agenda and argumentation.

What are you? his little brother or his alt account?

[YouGotServed]

so you don't understand how a higlight video is much weaker analysis than an actual full game?

Both hold the same weight. I could post Donatas Motiejunas full game from yesterday and make him look like prime Hakeem. Atta boy, doe.

Again, since we didn't watch these guys play, we go by what we know. Anyway, we're done here. You're not making a case for Sabonis, just posted a quote you thought was relevant.

FTR, based on what I read from this thread, Walton gets my vote. Lazerus did a better job at presenting his side of the argument.

[YouGotServed]

surely a person that couldn't cope with the first 3 pages of Dante's Inferno shouldn't be trying to play devil's advocate?

you don't understand how a higlight video is flawed in comparison to a full game specially when trying to judge how good a player could perform (very different from HOW HE USUALLY PERFORMS).

wanna defend an idiot? be my guest, but don't make simplistic comparisons just because you struggle with definitions. Of course we can only go by what we know, that's why our resident forum idiot should stop making imaginary arguments about how because A beat B and C beat A, C is better than B or when he goes into deep reflexion mode and tells us all about the difference in skill by judging 5 minutes of partial clips, highlights and a black and white photo; I didn't do any of this. I just tried to expose his weak agenda and argumentation.

What are you? his little brother or his alt account?

:violin:

Yada yada yada. This is nothing but a weak ass rant coming from someone who is cornered and can't back up his side of the argument.

Convince me Sabonis at his prime is a better player than Walton. Go on, old sport.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think Sabonis could've had a terrific NBA career if he had come earlier, but c'mon now...

Walton actually did it big at the highest level; he's a MVP, a FMVP (DPOY if the award was already given out too), showed amazing talent/intangibles while improving team and teammates, going against the likes of Kareem, young Moses, McAdoo, Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Gilmore... And all of that before he was even 26; he could've very well been a top10 all-time player and top5 all-time center, if he had stayed healthy.




I have posted this before, but here it is again...

MY all-time list...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J
14. Oscar
15. West

Some of those are very close and interchangeable.

Does that look like a bias towards the 60's?

No, just a huge bias towards Wilt :lol And what comes along with it...

[Psileas]

"No letting up." Red told them. "Beat them as badly as you can." Then, turning to Russell, he pointed Radivoje Korac - star of the Yugoslav team, and Europe's leading scorer at the time. "He scores once and I'll have your head. I mean it, once."

When the game began, the Yugoslavs went straight to Korac as soon as they got the ball. He made a spin move on Russell, turned, and Russell blocked the shot, starting a fast break the other way. Five times, the Yugoslavs got the ball, five times, Russell blocked a shot. The sixth time down, Korac caught the ball thirty feet from the basket and, with Russell racing at him, heaved a shot that hit the side of the backboard and bounced away as the crowd hooted. The Americans are now up by twenty.

"Russell," Red screamed, "I'm gonna kill you! You let the guy hit the backboard!"

The next time Korac caught the ball, he tried to go up-and-under Russell, who slammed the ball back at him so hard it hit him in the head and bounced away. Completely exasperated, Korac grabbed the ball, kicked it into the stands, and was promptly ejected

I really want to know about the results of those games, esp. vs Yugoslavia.

[SpanishACB]

Convince me Sabonis at his prime is a better player than Walton. Go on, old sport.

Why? I don't need to convince you of anything. Specially of something I never claimed.

I can only try to convince you to try and read better, or become a more reflexive person if only to save me the effort of having to reply to these stupid posts of yours whilst you appear completely lost with words, and unable to understand a simple and literal paragraph.

[YouGotServed]

Why? I don't need to convince you of anything. Specially of something I never claimed.

I can only try to convince you to try and read better, or become a more reflexive person if only to save me the effort of having to reply to these stupid posts of yours whilst you appear completely lost with words, and unable to understand a simple and literal paragraph.

By posting that one full video it's obvious you are trying to make a case for Sabonis. What else were you trying to accomolish if not that? Don't be afraid boy, share your thoughts.

Please, educate all of us. How is Sabonis a better player than Walton?

[ArbitraryWater]

Can anyone point me to a great game of PEAK Sabonis, and where all these myths from him are coming from?

Or is there no footage and its literally all based on potential?

[Psileas]

"Peak" Sabonis is really a player that never existed. He's just a huge what if, and arguably not a very realistic one. Late teen Sabonis had a huge potential, but this is a lean giant, not a 300-pound monster and obviously not a player at his peak. When he was in his mid 20's, he was much bigger, but his knees were already banged and surgically repaired and his mobility already suffered. I'm not sure any actual version of Sabonis had ever been clearly better than any others of him. Was '85 Sabonis really better than '90 or '93 Sabonis? I doubt it.

Here's his probable scoring career high at adult level, in 1989:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC1NSzJ9PQ

[LAZERUSS]

"Peak" Sabonis is really a player that never existed. He's just a huge what if, and arguably not a very realistic one. Late teen Sabonis had a huge potential, but this is a lean giant, not a 300-pound monster and obviously not a player at his peak. When he was in his mid 20's, he was much bigger, but his knees were already banged and surgically repaired and his mobility already suffered. I'm not sure any actual version of Sabonis had ever been clearly better than any others of him. Was '85 Sabonis really better than '90 or '93 Sabonis? I doubt it.

Here's his probable scoring career high at adult level, in 1989:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC1NSzJ9PQ


Excellent footage. And no one is questioning his skills, but clearly THAT man would NOT have been dominating the likes of Gilmore, Hakeem, Robinson, Kareem, or Wilt...among others.

And here is footage of Walton playing against arguably as talented players as that footage had...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAnC4cBXAuY

and then Walton at his peak and in the '77 NBA Finals...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGeI6ypgtP0


BTW, and as always, it is refreshing to have someone provide EVIDENCE and RESEARCH in their posts. Unlike 90% of the posters on ISH.

[LAZERUSS]

I really want to know about the results of those games, esp. vs Yugoslavia.

I couldn't tell you. But for someone questioning what Wilt would have done against the European competition in HIS era...


give me footage of Wilt scoring 100 points

or wait, better! give me footage of Wilt dominating European competition! give me footage of Wilt dominating Joel Pryzbilla... there's none? Joel must've been better than Wilt then.

You're really something aren't you?

One would only need to look at how our AMATEUR teams did in the Olympics in the 60's. Hell, we sent a group of castoffs to the '68 Olympics, most of whom never made it to the NBA, and they cruised to a Gold Medal.

[LAZERUSS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aPvNA0tPWY

Sabonis couldn't hit a shot for his life in this game.

I didn't take the time to count his missed shots, but in the first two minutes he started out at 0-5, and within another few minutes he was 1-9 from the field before being pulled...

USA 127 Lithuania 76

[julizaver]

Who you got?

First of all I agree with Psileas that prime Sabonis never really existed. In reality we could talk about pre-injuries young Sabonis.

Young Sabonis was one of the greatest basketball talents in Europe (if not the greatest), he had played all positions in his youth starting with guard. Even in his early years although he was a starting center for Zalgiris he was used as PF by Soviet coach A. Gomelsky between 1983 and 1985, as the coach used both 7-3 Tkachenko and 7-3 Sabonis as twin towers. He was also Euro'85 MVP. He played with a Soviet in a USA tour in 1982 when he was still 17 (and he played at center) against US best college teams and USSR won 9 and lost 3 vs US college teams. Sabonis was best performer with averages of 19 ppg, 9 rpg in 27 mpg.

"In a game televised nationally on CBS, Sabonis led his team to victory over Indiana University, prompting the Indiana coach, Bobby Knight, who coached the victorious Olympic team in 1984, to say of him, "He may be the best non-American player I've ever seen.' And three days later he played against Ralph Sampson's Virginia where according to Bill Wall, the executive director of the Amateur Basketball Association of the U.S.A., who accompanied the
Russians on the tour, says, "Sabonis clearly outplayed Sampson in
that game.' Sampson was the first player selected in the NBA draft at
the end of the 1982-1983 collegiate season."

The stat line for Sabonis, who was fouled out was 21 points, 14 rebounds, 4 or 5 blocks and Sampson was 13 points, 25 rebounds, 9 blocks. But it was Sabonis at 17 and Sampson at 22. So probably after that tour was the time where US experts start thinking of Sabonis as a great prospect and future NBA star. Sadly USSR boycotted the '84 Olympics and Sabonis missed the opportunity to play against Ewing and Perkins.

In 1986 prior to World Championship in Spain Sabonis was already bothered by some injuries as he missed all the pregames for USSR team. And according to his coach '86 WC was Sabonis worst campaign so far, as he slammed him for playing for himself not for the team. Also I have read that some US experts who saw him said that he did not develop much for the 4 years after that '82 tour. They observe that he lacks intensity in defense and be a little passive and attributed that to the lack of competition and proper training in Europe. With that said Sabonis played well in the second half of the World Cup Final versus David Robinson and made some strong plays finishing with 16 pts and 11 rebs vs 20 pts and 4 rebs for Robinson.

I suggest that had Sabonis came in NBA in 1984 or 1985 with proper training and if he avoided those Achilles injuries only then we can compare him with prime Walton or any other center of a time. During the 80s the NBA was far ahead of any other league, and the gap was bigger than it is now. It is enough to mention that Blazzers doctors saved his career before '88 Olympics (although they strongly advised against playing on it as he was not fully recovered).

Like Sabonis who never hit his peak, Walton had some resurgent in form after his first 2 seasons and at 25 he was one of the best NBA players winning MVP and NBA tittle in 1977.

[julizaver]

Based on what we know.

A nowhere near his prime Robinson outplayed a peak Sabonis. And a decade later he was wiping the floor with him.


Robinson and Sabonis are almost the same age. In '86 Robinson we could call it even at least, and '88 Sabonis was not fully recovered by his ACL injuries.



McAdoo at age 40 was a better scorer in the Euroleague than Sabonis ever was.


Sabonis was never a volume scorer for his team like McAdoo, he was more of a team player and good reader of the game with great basketball IQ. With that said scoring argument is not very appropriate in Sabonis case. Sabonis is more of Tim Dunkan type of player.

In my opinion with proper training (NBA) and without injuries Sabonis could have a shot as Top 10 center All Time. In terms of talent and skills he was ahead of Ewing and Robinson. And DRob is more athletic in terms of speed and quickness Sabonis had larger frame and height advantage so it would be interesting to watch them H2H.

[LAZERUSS]

First of all I agree with Psileas that prime Sabonis never really existed. In reality we could talk about pre-injuries young Sabonis.

Young Sabonis was one of the greatest basketball talents in Europe (if not the greatest), he had played all positions in his youth starting with guard. Even in his early years although he was a starting center for Zalgiris he was used as PF by Soviet coach A. Gomelsky between 1983 and 1985, as the coach used both 7-3 Tkachenko and 7-3 Sabonis as twin towers. He was also Euro'85 MVP. He played with a Soviet in a USA tour in 1982 when he was still 17 (and he played at center) against US best college teams and USSR won 9 and lost 3 vs US college teams. Sabonis was best performer with averages of 19 ppg, 9 rpg in 27 mpg.

"In a game televised nationally on CBS, Sabonis led his team to victory over Indiana University, prompting the Indiana coach, Bobby Knight, who coached the victorious Olympic team in 1984, to say of him, "He may be the best non-American player I've ever seen.' And three days later he played against Ralph Sampson's Virginia where according to Bill Wall, the executive director of the Amateur Basketball Association of the U.S.A., who accompanied the
Russians on the tour, says, "Sabonis clearly outplayed Sampson in
that game.' Sampson was the first player selected in the NBA draft at
the end of the 1982-1983 collegiate season."

The stat line for Sabonis, who was fouled out was 21 points, 14 rebounds, 4 or 5 blocks and Sampson was 13 points, 25 rebounds, 9 blocks. But it was Sabonis at 17 and Sampson at 22. So probably after that tour was the time where US experts start thinking of Sabonis as a great prospect and future NBA star. Sadly USSR boycotted the '84 Olympics and Sabonis missed the opportunity to play against Ewing and Perkins.

In 1986 prior to World Championship in Spain Sabonis was already bothered by some injuries as he missed all the pregames for USSR team. And according to his coach '86 WC was Sabonis worst campaign so far, as he slammed him for playing for himself not for the team. Also I have read that some US experts who saw him said that he did not develop much for the 4 years after that '82 tour. They observe that he lacks intensity in defense and be a little passive and attributed that to the lack of competition and proper training in Europe. With that said Sabonis played well in the second half of the World Cup Final versus David Robinson and made some strong plays finishing with 16 pts and 11 rebs vs 20 pts and 4 rebs for Robinson.

I suggest that had Sabonis came in NBA in 1984 or 1985 with proper training and if he avoided those Achilles injuries only then we can compare him with prime Walton or any other center of a time. During the 80s the NBA was far ahead of any other league, and the gap was bigger than it is now. It is enough to mention that Blazzers doctors saved his career before '88 Olympics (although they strongly advised against playing on it as he was not fully recovered).

Like Sabonis who never hit his peak, Walton had some resurgent in form after his first 2 seasons and at 25 he was one of the best NBA players winning MVP and NBA tittle in 1977.


First of all, you are one of only a few posters here whom I respect.

Secondly, this is great RESEARCH.

Having said that, though, the MYTH of Sabonis is just that...a MYTH. I won't take the time to look up the topics, but there have been a few here in which Sabonis was clearly over-rated.

There have even been those that claimed that he outplayed Robinson in the '88 Olympics...which was CLEARLY not the case. And Robinson was a skeleton in that game, and was nowhere near the player he would be just a few years later in his NBA career.

And in the very limited footage of Sabonis that we do have...he was not on a prime Robinson level. Furthermore, I don't believe he was on the level of prime centers like Russell, Walton, Thurmond, Lanier, Gilmore, and Hakeem, either. And clearly he was nowhere near the level of a prime KAJ, Shaq, or Chamberlain.

I have said it before...Sabonis was highly skilled for a big man. Judging from what I have seen, and even read, in his prime, he likely would have had a very good NBA career. But I have never seen any evidence which would suggest that he was ever on the level of the truly great NBA centers.

[LAZERUSS]

Robinson and Sabonis are almost the same age. In '86 Robinson we could call it even at least, and '88 Sabonis was not fully recovered by his ACL injuries.



Sabonis was never a volume scorer for his team like McAdoo, he was more of a team player and good reader of the game with great basketball IQ. With that said scoring argument is not very appropriate in Sabonis case. Sabonis is more of Tim Dunkan type of player.

In my opinion with proper training (NBA) and without injuries Sabonis could have a shot as Top 10 center All Time. In terms of talent and skills he was ahead of Ewing and Robinson. And DRob is more athletic in terms of speed and quickness Sabonis had larger frame and height advantage so it would be interesting to watch them H2H.

In the mid-70's, McAdoo was arguably the best center in the NBA. Only a prime Kareem would have had a case over him. McAdoo was BLOWING AWAY the league in scoring in that time frame, and was literally unstoppable. He finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting in the three year span from '74 thru '76, and the reality was, he was ROBBED of the MVP in '76.

A prime McAdoo was certainly a Top-10 all-time NBA center. And it also speaks volumes about his post-NBA career, that as a 40 year old, he was scoring 30 ppg in Europe.

[oarabbus]

In the mid-70's, McAdoo was arguably the best center in the NBA. Only a prime Kareem would have had a case over him. McAdoo was BLOWING AWAY the league in scoring in that time frame, and was literally unstoppable. He finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting in the three year span from '74 thru '76, and the reality was, he was ROBBED of the MVP in '76.

A prime McAdoo was certainly a Top-10 all-time NBA center. And it also speaks volumes about his post-NBA career, that as a 40 year old, he was scoring 30 ppg in Europe.

So Marc Gasol, DeMarcus Cousins, and ISH's very own favorite Dwight would be mediocre to below average centers in the 60s and 70s?

Obviously the 'athletes have evolved since the 60s' arguments are absurd, but what I'm hearing from the nostalgia-era fans is that today is just a low quality league, and no one playing today would stack up back then.

I'm sure a peak KG and peak Dirk would be end of the bench scrubs who weren't fit to step on the court with Wilt or Russell and would be shit players in the 60s :rolleyes: and NO I am not saying that KG/Dirk is on Wilt/Russell's level, both are obviously in the top 10. but the hyperbole is unreal

[LAZERUSS]

So Marc Gasol, DeMarcus Cousins, and ISH's very own favorite Dwight would be mediocre to below average centers in the 60s and 70s?

Obviously the 'athletes have evolved since the 60s' arguments are absurd, but what I'm hearing from the nostalgia-era fans is that today is just a low quality league, and no one playing today would stack up back then.

I'm sure a peak KG and peak Dirk would be end of the bench scrubs who weren't fit to step on the court with Wilt or Russell and would be shit players in the 60s :rolleyes: and NO I am not saying that KG/Dirk is on Wilt/Russell's level, both are obviously in the top 10. but the hyperbole is unreal

A peak KG or Dirk would have been great in any era.

The rest of those "centers" would have been middle tier centers in the early-to-mid 70's without a doubt. Lanier, Gilmore, and Thurmond were all superior. McAdoo, KAJ, and Chamberlain were all considerably superior. Dwight would have been competing with Cowens, Reed, Unseld, and Hayes in that time frame. And later on a prime Walton and a prime Moses were also superior.

[fpliii]

LAZ - If you were starting a team, would you take McAdoo, Reed or Lanier?

[LAZERUSS]

LAZ - If you were starting a team, would you take McAdoo, Reed or Lanier?

Peak? I would give a peak McAdoo a slight edge over both of them at their peaks, (and probably Reed a slight edge over Lanier.)

From '73-74 thru '75-76 he was on another level.

[julizaver]

As Sabonis was one of my favourite players this is one of my favourite photos :bowdown: :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kfQg3y7dnQA/Tkhq4AyMMWI/AAAAAAAACZY/XdRz_RH0Qr8/s1600/sabonis+over+robinson.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

As Sabonis was one of my favourite players this is one of my favourite photos :bowdown: :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kfQg3y7dnQA/Tkhq4AyMMWI/AAAAAAAACZY/XdRz_RH0Qr8/s1600/sabonis+over+robinson.jpg

I know it is difficult to project, but where would you rank the Sabonis we know, at his peak, on a tier of the all-time great centers at their peaks?

[julizaver]

I know it is difficult to project, but where would you rank the Sabonis we know, at his peak, on a tier of the all-time great centers at their peaks?

Sabonis in Europe and international level was different then Sabonis in NBA.

In Europe he was trully dominant in all teams he played and he won everything team and individual at both international and team level. He was the main man shouting and arguing with officials (and was considered hot head or short tempered), undisputed leader of all his teams. He was clearly better than Vlade Divac or Rick Smits or Iglauscas (I mentioned those players as they are known in NBA). So for me he was the all-time best European center.

In NBA Sabonis was never the team leader, somehow queit. He was a good servent for Blazers but never the main star. He was often outplayed by Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem but it was mostly because of the lack of mobility and physical limitations (at that stage of his career). He proved that he could play flat footed but it was not enough versus NBA premium big mens from the 90s.

The hardest thing is to determine when exactly his peak was - before '86 or after '88. Based on stats his two best years could be his last in USSR and his first in Spain:

88-89 26.3 ppg in Soviet league
89-90 23.3 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 1.8 apg and 3.5 bpg in just 33 min per game (37 games)

He had some great year in 1995 with Real Madrid team, and his rookie NBA season was very good also, but he was already over 30.

Of course young healthy Sabonis was more than capable without the physical limitations, but then we spoke about the lack of maturity. You can not say that KAJ, Jordan were on their respective primes when in college (20 years of age) - ussually NBA players hit their prime after they turn 24-25 years of age. And Sabonis ruptured his ACL at 22 and almost missed 2 years rehabiliting.

So the Sabonis I know, not the Sabonis that could be, I ranked ahead of every European center but outside of Top 10 ALL-time when NBA players considered below the likes of Shaq and Hakeem.
If we take the peaks only it doesn't do any favor to Sabonis in terms of rankings because he somehow had a long career lasting 20 years (15 of then being handicaped by injuries). Therefore peak Sabonis I could rank around top 20 spot all-time. But with great belive that he could be top 10 if he was healthy enough and joined the Blazers in 1985.

[LAZERUSS]

Sabonis in Europe and international level was different then Sabonis in NBA.

In Europe he was trully dominant in all teams he played and he won everything team and individual at both international and team level. He was the main man shouting and arguing with officials (and was considered hot head or short tempered), undisputed leader of all his teams. He was clearly better than Vlade Divac or Rick Smits or Iglauscas (I mentioned those players as they are known in NBA). So for me he was the all-time best European center.

In NBA Sabonis was never the team leader, somehow queit. He was a good servent for Blazers but never the main star. He was often outplayed by Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem but it was mostly because of the lack of mobility and physical limitations (at that stage of his injuries). He proved that he could play flat footed but it was not enough versus NBA premium big mens from the 90s.

The hardest thing is to determine when exactly his peak was - before '86 or after '88. Based on stats his two best years could be his last in USSR and his first in Spain:

88-89 26.3 ppg in Soviet league
89-90 23.3 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 1.8 apg and 3.5 bpg in just 33 min per game (37 games)

He had some great year in 1995 with Real Madrid team, and his rookie NBA season was very good also, but he was already over 30.

Of course young healthy Sabonis was more than capable without the physical limitations, but then we spoke about the lack of maturity. You can not say that KAJ, Jordan were on their respective primes when in college (20 years of age) - ussually NBA players hit their prime after they turn 24-25 years of age. And Sabonis ruptured his ACL at 22 and almost missed 2 years rehabiliting.

So the Sabonis I know, not the Sabonis that could be, I ranked ahead of every European center but outside of Top 10 ALL-time when NBA players considered below the likes of Shaq and Hakeem.
If we take the peaks only it doesn't do any favor to Sabonis in terms of rankings because he somehow had a long career lasting 20 years (15 of then being handicaped by injuries). Therefore peak Sabonis I could rank around top 20 spot all-time. But with great belive that he could be top 10 if he was healthy enough and joined the Blazers in 1985.

:cheers:

[stanlove1111]

haha, that's pretty much the logic he uses in every single argument he makes, and then he whines about others not bringing up 'facts' as if his 'facts' were eternal truths.

He doesn't know anything about basketball, and I mean anything. He thinks you can put numbers into a computer to see who is the better basketball player...

He has been at it on the internet for at least 15 years with the same old arguments.

I remember years ago on another site debating with him and he told me the fact that Russell's teammates had better numbers one series then Wilt's that its proof that Russell had better teammates. he honestly never thought about the fact that Wilt took on a bigger share of what his team did so of course Russell's teammates would have better numbers..

he didn't respnd for a while and I could just see that blank stare trying to figure that out..

[dubeta]

What about a Prime Sabonis vs a Prime Wilt?

[LAZERUSS]

He doesn't know anything about basketball, and I mean anything. He thinks you can put numbers into a computer to see who is the better basketball player...

He has been at it on the internet for at least 15 years with the same old arguments.

I remember years ago on another site debating with him and he told me the fact that Russell's teammates had better numbers one series then Wilt's that its proof that Russell had better teammates. he honestly never thought about the fact that Wilt took on a bigger share of what his team did so of course Russell's teammates would have better numbers..

he didn't respnd for a while and I could just see that blank stare trying to figure that out..

I can assure you that it was not me you. You must have been making a complete fool out of yourself to someone else back then, just as you have here.

BTW, if you care to discuss the Russell-Wilt "teammates", go ahead and start the topic. I would be more than happy to shred your take, just as I have on the '77 Walton-KAJ series.

[Collie]

Reading this thread, I just realized that David Robinson nearly singlehandedly created the legends of two great centers by being outplayed. :oldlol:

If he wasn't beaten by Sabonis in the 80's we wouldn't have had any footage of him matching up against a great NBA center, and he would have had much more doubters.

Same thing with Hakeem, who became a top 12 player by his 95 playoff performance and by dismantling Drob.

[LAZERUSS]

Reading this thread, I just realized that David Robinson nearly singlehandedly created the legends of two great centers by being outplayed. :oldlol:

If he wasn't beaten by Sabonis in the 80's we wouldn't have had any footage of him matching up against a great NBA center, and he would have had much more doubters.

Same thing with Hakeem, who became a top 12 player by his 95 playoff performance and by dismantling Drob.

Well, in Sabonis' case, it never happened.

As for the '95 playoff performance...yeah, it made Hakeem's career. Unfortunately for D-Rob, the rest of his 42 career H2H's with Hakeem are never mentioned.