COMBINE Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant's titles/MVP's:

[CavaliersFTW]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqZrCTcCMAApnrp.jpg

And Russell still wins :bowdown:

http://i.imgur.com/HVPdsSe.png

[MastaKilla]

Russell played against like 6 teams combined mostly of dudes working at your local price chopper to make ends meet

[CavaliersFTW]

Russell played against like 6 teams combined mostly of dudes working at your local price chopper to make ends meet
Kinda like you?

[ImKobe]

Tell me more about the tough competition Bill faced and how evolved the game of basketball was and how many teams there were in the league...

[CavaliersFTW]

Tell me more about the tough competition Bill faced and how evolved the game of basketball was and how many teams there were in the league...
K

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

[Im Still Ballin]

Kinda like you?
ether!

[MastaKilla]

Kinda like you?

so you agree that players back then were working part time jobs to make ends meet?

kind of different when Duncan & Kobe are going up against professional athletes while Russell is going up against part time store clerks

[Im Still Ballin]

so you agree that players back then were working part time jobs to make ends meet?

kind of different when Duncan & Kobe are going up against professional athletes while Russell is going up against part time store clerks
ether!

[Kvnzhangyay]

so you agree that players back then were working part time jobs to make ends meet?

kind of different when Duncan & Kobe are going up against professional athletes while Russell is going up against part time store clerks

ouch

[T_L_P]

Now compare the Finals MVPs.

Oh wait, Russell didn't win any because he was never the best player on his team. :facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

so you agree that players back then were working part time jobs to make ends meet?

kind of different when Duncan & Kobe are going up against professional athletes while Russell is going up against part time store clerks
You mean off season jobs? Many had off season jobs, as the players weren't paid as much as today. They still practiced obsessively and worked on their games in the offseason nonetheless. Bob Pettit for example shot 4 hours a day every day for the first 4 years of his career. Jerry West never stopped working on his game, the best in the world never stop they practice because they play the game like it is life or death. The difference is that players today get paid so much, they get to take vacations to other countries and take several weeks off. They get back and start their days training sure, but then go clubbing/partying at night. Their opportunities for self-practice in the offseason is no different really than back then, where players worked a summer job, and instead of practicing before dinner they just practiced after dinner (again, this coming from Bob Pettit's description).

People who want to work at their game are going to work at their game. Doesn't matter what era. Do you think work ethic has improved in this generation... like really? :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Now compare the Finals MVPs.

Oh wait, Russell didn't win any because he was never the best player on his team. :facepalm
Right, that's why he never won any :banana:

[Im Still Ballin]

You mean off season jobs? Many had off season jobs, as the players weren't paid as much as today. They still practiced obsessively and worked on their games in the offseason nonetheless. Bob Pettit for example shot 4 hours a day every day for the first 4 years of his career. Jerry West never stopped working on his game, the best in the world never stop they practice because they play the game like it is life or death. The difference is that players today get paid so much, they get to take vacations to other countries and take several weeks off. They get back and start their days training sure, but then go clubbing/partying at night. Their opportunities for self-practice in the offseason is no different really than back then, where players worked a summer job, and instead of practicing before dinner they just practiced after dinner (again, this coming from Bob Pettit's description).

People who want to work at their game are going to work at their game. Doesn't matter what era. Do you think work ethic has improved in this generation... like really? :lol
ether!

[MavsSuperFan]

Russell played against like 6 teams combined mostly of dudes working at your local price chopper to make ends meet
A slight exaggeration

But 60s stans never address the obvious disadvantages faced by the non stars of the league in that era.

Guys just werent financially capable of devoting 100% of their professional time to the craft of getting better at basketball and thus that alone would lead to a lower level of NBA and thus make any accomplishments in that league somewhat easier to achieve for the stars, who did make enough money not to need second jobs/off season jobs.

Eg. Bob pettit got a freaking law degree. do you know how much time it takes to get a law degree? you will never see a major pro athlete today get a law degree. they are too busy getting better at their sport. Imagine how much better Pettit would have been if he didnt have to waste his time getting a law degree. Imagine the people that chose not to go into the NBA because the legitimately could make more money being a professional.

Kids today start focusing on basketball at an early age and neglect their education. Eg. focusing on AAU basketball. Now I am not saying this doesnt **** them up if they dont make the NBA, but it does make them better players and make the NBA better.

Also the US population in the 1960s was less than half of what it currently is and there was zero international players.

Thus the talent pool was much lower. Also teams kept white players for arbitrary marketing reasons and thus teams werent constructed to optimize performance as they are today.

[salwan]

repped op :applause:

[tpols]

Now compare the Finals MVPs.

Oh wait, Russell didn't win any because he was never the best player on his team. :facepalm
Its called the Bill Russell Finals MVP award.. They literally named the award after him.

[MastaKilla]

They still practiced obsessively and worked on their games in the offseason nonetheless. Bob Pettit for example shot 4 hours a day every day for the first 4 years of his career.

and by the time most top prospects are 15 they have been/are putting in more work then this.


The difference is that players today get paid so much, they get to take vacations to other countries and take several weeks off. They get back and start their days training sure, but then go clubbing/partying at night.

no, the difference is these players today are training from before they hit puberty to become professional athletes. This is their lively hood. You really think players in the 50's & 60's were training all day every day for 10+ years before they entered the NBA when the NBA was a part time job.. :biggums: :hammerhead:


Their opportunities for self-practice in the offseason is no different really than back then, where players worked a summer job, and instead of practicing before dinner they just practiced after dinner (again, this coming from Bob Pettit's description).

you've got to be trolling with this..


People who want to work at their game are going to work at their game. Doesn't matter what era. Do you think work ethic has improved in this generation... like really? :lol

People who want to work on their game are going to work on their game..no shit. But today's players have not only been working longer on their game, but also their bodies before they enter the NBA than most of these 50's & 60's players spent working on their game over their entire career.

[CavaliersFTW]

A slight exaggeration

But 60s stans never address the obvious disadvantages faced by the non stars of the league in that era.

Guys just werent financially capable of devoting 100% of their professional time to the craft of getting better at basketball and thus that alone would lead to a lower level of NBA and thus make any accomplishments in that league somewhat easier to achieve for the stars, who did make enough money not to need second jobs/off season jobs.

Also the US population in the 1960s was less than half of what it currently is and there was zero international players.

Thus the talent pool was much lower. Also teams kept white players for arbitrary marketing reasons and thus teams werent constructed to optimize performance as they are today.
This post has been brought to us by ..imagination :oldlol:

Even Oscar Robertson and Bob Pettit had offseason jobs...

Where as Rudy LaRusso, a much lower paid "roleplayer" never did...

I love how you guys just try and craft these assumptions and scenarios in your minds and pass it off as fact :lol

What else can we assume about the 60's, tell us - but don't use research use your imagination!

http://m.memegen.com/s8jdv5.jpg

[sportjames23]

Russell played against like 6 teams combined mostly of dudes working at your local price chopper to make ends meet


Kinda like you?


http://forums.superherohype.com/images/smilies/cs_hehe.gif

[salwan]

Its called the Bill Russell Finals MVP award.. They literally named the award after him.
:lol

[fpliii]

Interesting how posters are claiming Russell wouldn't dominate in today's league.

The same was commonplace for Wilt, until CavsFTW dropped that monster scouting video of his. Now the only skeptics are trolls.

Reading between the lines, looks like the OP is working on a Russell video. Meaning that, more rat poison is incoming. :pimp:

[T_L_P]

Its called the Bill Russell Finals MVP award.. They literally named the award after him.

And yet he was never good enough to win one? Sympathy move?

[CavaliersFTW]

and by the time most top prospects are 15 they have been/are putting in more work then this.



no, the difference is these players today are training from before they hit puberty to become professional athletes. This is their lively hood. You really think players in the 50's & 60's were training all day every day for 10+ years before they entered the NBA when the NBA was a part time job.. :biggums: :hammerhead:



you've got to be trolling with this..



People who want to work on their game are going to work on their game..no shit. But today's players have not only been working longer on their game, but also their bodies before they enter the NBA than most of these 50's & 60's players spent working on their game over their entire career.
LOL first the problem was "part time jobs" now it is "training before the age of 15"?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55039027.jpg

..have you read any books written by NBA players from back then? Many certainly played the game religiously since childhood.. they were obsessed with it, it was treated as the most important/competitive thing of their lives. You don't play pro basketball if it doesn't pay well unless you are OBSESSED with it. :hammerhead:

What are these, full grown adults pretending to be kids?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

Is Joel Embiid going to be shit because he didn't start playing til he was 16? Is that also why Hakeem Olajuwon was also so terrible?

What are you going to come up with next? :lol

[fpliii]

And yet he was never good enough to win one? Sympathy move?
The award didn't exist until his final season, and West won it (averaging a million points in the series), the only guy ever from a losing team to do so...

[sportjames23]

And yet he was never good enough to win one? Sympathy move?


Shaaaade. :oldlol:

But, yeah, it didn't exist until his last year.

[tpols]

And yet he was never good enough to win one? Sympathy move?

The award didn't exist when Russell was winning titles. No player on his team has ever won a fmvp over him.

:biggums:

[T_L_P]

Shaaaade. :oldlol:

But, yeah, it didn't exist until his last year.

:oldlol: I know, bro. Just thought I'd run with it.

I've wrote a bunch of times about how great Russell is. #2 C ever imo.

[T_L_P]

Brah, are you ok? The award didn't exist during his time.

Link?

[MastaKilla]

LOL first the problem was "part time jobs" now it is "training before the age of 15"?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55039027.jpg

..have you read any books written by NBA players from back then? Many certainly played the game religiously since childhood.. they were obsessed with it, it was treated as the most important/competitive thing of their lives. You don't play pro basketball if it doesn't pay well unless you are OBSESSED with it. :hammerhead:

What are these, full grown adults pretending to be kids?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

Is Joel Embiid going to be shit because he didn't start playing til he was 16? Is that also why Hakeem Olajuwon was also so terrible?

What are you going to come up with next? :lol

obvioiusly there are going to be outliers in any group.

and how am i moving the goalpost? If you don't see how training training full time from a young age goes hand in hand with the NBA not being a part time job anymore than i really don't know what to say to you.

[MavsSuperFan]

This post has been brought to us by ..imagination :oldlol:

Even Oscar Robertson and Bob Pettit had offseason jobs...

Where as Rudy LaRusso, a much lower paid "roleplayer" never did...

I love how you guys just try and craft these assumptions and scenarios in your minds and pass it off as fact :lol

What else can we assume about the 60's, tell us - but don't use research use your imagination!

http://m.memegen.com/s8jdv5.jpg
:biggums: Its not imagination. I am an american and a fan of history. I know what america was like in the 1960s. I dont need to do research to know what this country was like.

Bob pettit got a freaking law degree. do you know how much time it takes to get a law degree? you will never see a major pro athlete today get a law degree. they are too busy getting better at their sport. Imagine how much better Pettit would have been if he didnt have to waste his time getting a law degree. Imagine the people that chose not to go into the NBA because the legitimately could make more money being a professional.

Kids today start focusing on basketball at an early age and neglect their education. Eg. focusing on AAU basketball. Now I am not saying this doesnt **** them up if they dont make the NBA, but it does make them better players and make the NBA better.

Kids today that want to make the NBA devote a lot of their time to working on getting better at basketball. They dont even care about their education. You honestly dont think that makes the level of basketball players better today?

No body did that in the 1960s. even if you made the NBA, most likely you would need to work a crap second job to make ends meet. There were only a few players that made really good money. Nowadays even NBA minimum is incredible money.

[CavaliersFTW]

:biggums: Its not imagination. I am an american and a fan of history. I know what america was like in the 1960s. I dont need to do research....
..than do I, or anyone else, need to read the rest of your post?

[navy]

Link?
Never go full retard bro.

[T_L_P]

Never go full retard bro.

See above post. :cheers:

[MavsSuperFan]

..than do I, or anyone else, need to read the rest of your post?
do you need to do research to know that the axis powers were Germany, Japan and Italy?

Do you need to do research to know the longest serving american president was FDR?

Do you need to research what the american civil war was about?

Do you need to research what the largest nation on earth is?

Do you need to research who the founding fathers were?

Do you need to research what the most populace nation on earth is?

Do you need to research if saudi arabia is islamic?

Do you need to research who the speaker of the house is?

Do you need to research to know what 2 +2 is?

Somethings you should just know off general knowledge.

The higher financial rewards of the modern NBA make it better than it was when the financial rewards were minimal, to the point that players needed to work second jobs/ off season jobs to make ends meet.
The larger american population and presence of international players make the current NBA's potential talent pool greater than the potential talent pool of the 1960s NBA. If you need to research to know this, I dont know what to say to you.

[Marchesk]

Tell me more about the tough competition Bill faced and how evolved the game of basketball was and how many teams there were in the league...

He did compete against another top 5 player all-time who shat on the record book his entire career , two other top 15 players, a top 20 player in Baylor, and wherever you rank Bob Petit.

[CavaliersFTW]

do you need to do research to know that the axis powers were Germany, Japan and Italy?

Do you need to do research to know the longest serving american president was FDR?

Do you need to research what the american civil war was about?

Do you need to research what the largest nation on earth is?

Do you need to research who the founding fathers were?

Do you need to research what the most populace nation on earth is?

Do you need to research if saudi arabia is islamic?

Do you need to research who the speaker of the house is?

Do you need to research to know what 2 +2 is?

Somethings you should just know off general knowledge.

The higher financial rewards of the modern NBA make it better than it was when the financial rewards were minimal, to the point that players needed to work second jobs/ off season jobs to make ends meet.
The larger american population and presence of international players make the current NBA's potential talent pool greater than the potential talent pool of the 1960s NBA. If you need to research to know this, I dont know what to say to you.
It would do this forum and posters like you so well to actually learn about specific individual accounts back then. Instead of these made up generalizations and assumptions you've got. Every player has their own unique story, even today. Generalizing can only be done if you know the specifics first, for any time period. You can't tell me how old Elgin Baylor, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Lew Alcindor, or Pete Maravich were when they first touched a basketball.. nor which ones had off season jobs and which ones did not, and how much time each one devoted to practice and how that compares to how specific individuals today practice. Nor can you actually tell me any specific information on the basketball programs or training they went through, and how it compares to specific individual players today. You really can't be specific about anything, yet you can tell me generalizations? You are dishonest in these discussions because you won't admit that you actually don't know.

I've spent the last several years dedicating a good portion of my time to uncover and share details, first hand accounts, statistical facts, and revealing audio and footage so that I can actually comment on some things and not just come off like I-already-knew-it-all. Your approach on the other hand is what, just proclaim you "know how the 60's were"? Off "general knowledge?" Cool. You must be like an encyclopedia on basketball from back then.

[Psileas]

Interesting how posters are claiming Russell wouldn't dominate in today's league.

The same was commonplace for Wilt, until CavsFTW dropped that monster scouting video of his. Now the only skeptics are trolls.

Reading between the lines, looks like the OP is working on a Russell video. Meaning that, more rat poison is incoming. :pimp:

You can't expect anything better from certain posters. Ignorance may run strong even among basketball players. E.g, A young (but still playing in the NBA) Dwight Howard didn't even know who Jack Sikma was. Age of information, my ass. :oldlol:
As for Russell and people's ignorance, just read (from the Sabonis thread) the story of the 1964 team that comprised of Bill Russell and other NBAers and toured around Europe, playing games against National Teams. They went easy on most, but the Yugoslavs were pretty arrogant and pretended they were good enough to beat them, so the NBAers beat them badly and Russell made his personal opponent, Korac (the GOAT scorer in Europe up to that time) this desperate by having all his shots blocked that after one block he kicked the ball in the stands and got ejected. This was another era, but many young fans literally don't know these players any better than European players knew about them back then.

[LAZERUSS]

Interesting how posters are claiming Russell wouldn't dominate in today's league.

The same was commonplace for Wilt, until CavsFTW dropped that monster scouting video of his. Now the only skeptics are trolls.

Reading between the lines, looks like the OP is working on a Russell video. Meaning that, more rat poison is incoming. :pimp:

A prime Russell had the greatest total defensive impact in NBA history. And in the early 60's, he was a near 20 ppg scorer in his regular seasons, and had several 20 ppg post-seasons and series. His performances in the '62 and '65 Finals are among the best (and most overlooked) in NBA history. He was certainly the games second greatest shot-blocker, and second greatest rebounder (with apologies to Rodman, who is in a battle for #3 with Moses.)

Accolades? In addition to those that CavsFTW already posted, he likely would have won at least EIGHT FMVP's (had the award existed), and likely 8+ DPOY's.

Furthermore, he was 6-10, had a 7-4 wingspan, and was a world-class high-jumper.


Oh, and for those that honestly believe he was an inept offensive player...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnjC0nm2q5U

Anyone thinking that he would not be a force in today's NBA are deluding themselves.

[MastaKilla]

heres video from the OP Showing Wilt's "post moves", these are the type of post moves that led to his huge scoring games..

first video Wilt immediately double dribbles, awkwardly turns and then goes up with a Dwight Howard esque hook shot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlNz0riiPWg


second video, Wilt does what all big men are taught to do (not) by bringing the ball below his knees and holding it there. This would get stripped 90% of the time in today's league

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAJjP6e6pg


third video, again another immediate double dribble, clunky turn around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9cUpYe6G10&list=UUFfDF7oCw7sVL7PzEg57E4g&index=77

now compare that to guys like..

Hakeem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDopaqTxiY

Dwight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slOlB_LfB-o

one of these guys can barely crack 20ppg for a season, the other was averaging 28ppg during championship runs, Wilt in the post is almost identical to Dwight in the post

[Blue&Orange]

I've spent the last several years dedicating a good portion of my time to uncover and share details, first hand accounts, statistical facts, and revealing audio and footage so that I can actually comment on some things and not just come off like I-already-knew-it-all. Your approach on the other hand is what, just proclaim you "know how the 60's were"? Off "general knowledge?" Cool. You must be like an encyclopedia on basketball from back then.
Was Wilt the only 60's star to have playoffs and finals numbers << regular season numbers? or there was more?

[jongib369]

LOL first the problem was "part time jobs" now it is "training before the age of 15"?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55039027.jpg

..have you read any books written by NBA players from back then? Many certainly played the game religiously since childhood.. they were obsessed with it, it was treated as the most important/competitive thing of their lives. You don't play pro basketball if it doesn't pay well unless you are OBSESSED with it. :hammerhead:

What are these, full grown adults pretending to be kids?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLH6bau9uo

Is Joel Embiid going to be shit because he didn't start playing til he was 16? Is that also why Hakeem Olajuwon was also so terrible?

What are you going to come up with next? :lol

"Duncan started out as a swimmer and only began playing basketball in ninth grade after Hurricane Hugo destroyed the only Olympic-sized pool on his home of St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands."


http://www.blackcelebkids.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tim2.jpg

[T_L_P]

Hakeem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDopaqTxiY



Hakeem wasn't an athlete; he was an artist.

[CavaliersFTW]

heres video from the OP Showing Wilt's "post moves", these are the type of post moves that led to his huge scoring games..

first video Wilt immediately double dribbles, awkwardly turns and then goes up with a Dwight Howard esque hook shot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlNz0riiPWg


second video, Wilt does what all big men are taught to do (not) by bringing the ball below his knees and holding it there. This would get stripped 90% of the time in today's league

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAJjP6e6pg


third video, again another immediate double dribble, clunky turn around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9cUpYe6G10&list=UUFfDF7oCw7sVL7PzEg57E4g&index=77

now compare that to guys like..

Hakeem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDopaqTxiY

Dwight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slOlB_LfB-o

one of these guys can barely crack 20ppg for a season, the other was averaging 28ppg during championship runs, Wilt in the post is almost identical to Dwight in the post
Wilt was a 290-310lb giant that would list 7-3 in today's era and had incredibly large hands 11.5 inches across... He could bring the ball down and do anything he wanted with it and all he needed was simple drop steps and crab dribbles to back people deep into the paint because he is far more physically gifted than 6-9 to 6-10 240-270lb players like Dwight Howard, Hakeem Olajuwon, or anyone else you might wish to mention that struggle to get so consistently deep even if they utilize a wider array of moves such as a Hakeem or McHale. This is where specific research, IE learning just how big and strong Wilt was and how it compares to others comes in to play. Ready to learn anything else?

[CavaliersFTW]

"Duncan started out as a swimmer and only began playing basketball in ninth grade after Hurricane Hugo destroyed the only Olympic-sized pool on his home of St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands."


http://www.blackcelebkids.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tim2.jpg
Wow he wouldn't make it in today's era. People started training way younger now a days ..:lol

[La Frescobaldi]

A slight exaggeration

But 60s stans never address the obvious disadvantages faced by the non stars of the league in that era.

Guys just werent financially capable of devoting 100% of their professional time to the craft of getting better at basketball and thus that alone would lead to a lower level of NBA and thus make any accomplishments in that league somewhat easier to achieve for the stars, who did make enough money not to need second jobs/off season jobs.

Eg. Bob pettit got a freaking law degree. do you know how much time it takes to get a law degree? you will never see a major pro athlete today get a law degree. they are too busy getting better at their sport. Imagine how much better Pettit would have been if he didnt have to waste his time getting a law degree. Imagine the people that chose not to go into the NBA because the legitimately could make more money being a professional.

Kids today start focusing on basketball at an early age and neglect their education. Eg. focusing on AAU basketball. Now I am not saying this doesnt **** them up if they dont make the NBA, but it does make them better players and make the NBA better.

Also the US population in the 1960s was less than half of what it currently is and there was zero international players.

Thus the talent pool was much lower. Also teams kept white players for arbitrary marketing reasons and thus teams werent constructed to optimize performance as they are today.
http://www.collegecrunch.org/feature/10-famous-athletes-who-are-also-incredibly-smart/

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/feed/2010-09/smart-athletes/story/sporting-news-names-the-20-smartest-athletes-in-sports

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/593440-steve-nash-ryan-fitzpatrick-and-the-35-smartest-athletes-of-all-time

took like 10 seconds on google

[j3lademaster]

This post has been brought to us by ..imagination :oldlol:

Even Oscar Robertson and Bob Pettit had offseason jobs...

Where as Rudy LaRusso, a much lower paid "roleplayer" never did...

I love how you guys just try and craft these assumptions and scenarios in your minds and pass it off as fact :lol

What else can we assume about the 60's, tell us - but don't use research use your imagination!

http://m.memegen.com/s8jdv5.jpgHe made, at worst, educated guesses based off basic social-economic trends. How is that "imagination"?

We've seen pro MMA evolve right before our eyes: from the early 90's to the 2000's to what it is today. Many fighters just couldn't hack it and fell into obscurity due to the rising talent pool. Sure, there are certain superstar exceptions like Couture who were able to stand the test of time, but it's obvious the average level of talent in MMA has had a drastic rise with its popularity and revenue.

And guess what, this is only the tip of the iceberg. The top earner(or one of), GSP, has made around 3 mil in his career. That'll take me around 30 years to make if you don't factor in promotions and inflation... it's a lot of money, but it's a joke to a guy like Mayweather who made 105mil without any endorsements. What's the incentive for a guy of Mayweather's caliber to even laughably consider fighting in an octagon?

It's obvious in the range of talent that the sport has evolved. You have guys putting up 50/27 playing 48.5 mpg and centers averaging 15+ boards was the norm. A small forward putting up 38/18 for christ sake. It's obvious whether you want to look at stats or youtube highlights that there was a much bigger dropoff in "scrubs" vs superstars in the 60's than now. The fact that kids didn't really play basketball growing up internationally and the lack of international scouting is a large factor as well.

And I'm not one of those guys saying Wilt would be a 4/3 scrub in today's game. Based off of size and physical ability alone Wilt would be a dominant force in this league. Russell's someone I admit I'd need to be more educated on, but what footage I've seen of him isn't very convincing. However, if you don't see a huge rise in competition from then and now, well we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[MastaKilla]

Wilt was a 290-310lb giant that would list 7-3 in today's era and had incredibly large hands 11.5 inches across... He could bring the ball down and do anything he wanted with it and all he needed was simple drop steps and crab dribbles to back people deep into the paint because he is far more physically gifted than 6-9 to 6-10 240-270lb players like Dwight Howard, Hakeem Olajuwon, or anyone else you might wish to mention that struggle to get so consistently deep even if they utilize a wider array of moves such as a Hakeem or McHale. This is where specific research, IE learning just how big and strong Wilt was and how it compares to others comes in to play. Ready to learn anything else?

so then why was he consistently dominated by 6'9 220 pound Bill Russell?

Every single one of those clips included a double dribble :roll: :roll: Wilt looks like a exact replica of Dwight in the post.. clunky, awkward and lacking skill.

check out this post move right here by Wilt at 1:28

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwns2x_wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-en-espanol_sport

he had very little skill when it came to post moves

[CavaliersFTW]

He made, at worst, educated guesses based off basic social-economic trends. How is that "imagination"?

We've seen pro MMA evolve right before our eyes: from the early 90's to the 2000's to what it is today. Many fighters just couldn't hack it and fell into obscurity due to the rising talent pool. Sure, there are certain superstar exceptions like Couture who were able to stand the test of time, but it's obvious the average level of talent in MMA has had a drastic rise with its popularity and revenue.

And guess what, this is only the tip of the iceberg. The top earner(or one of), GSP, has made around 3 mil in his career. That'll take me around 30 years to make if you don't factor in promotions and inflation... it's a lot of money, but it's a joke to a guy like Mayweather who made 105mil without any endorsements. What's the incentive for a guy of Mayweather's caliber to even laughably consider fighting in an octagon?

It's obvious in the range of talent that the sport has evolved. You have guys putting up 50/27 playing 48.5 mpg and centers averaging 15+ boards was the norm. A small forward putting up 38/18 for christ sake. It's obvious whether you want to look at stats or youtube highlights that there was a much bigger dropoff in "scrubs" vs superstars in the 60's than now. The fact that kids didn't really play basketball growing up internationally and the lack of international scouting is a large factor as well.

And I'm not one of those guys saying Wilt would be a 4/3 scrub in today's game. Based off of size and physical ability alone Wilt would be a dominant force in this league. Russell's someone I admit I'd need to be more educated on, but what footage I've seen of him isn't very convincing. However, if you don't see a huge rise in competition from then and now, well we'll just have to agree to disagree.I'll say it again. You can only make generalizations if you know the specifics first.

[MastaKilla]

Wow he wouldn't make it in today's era. People started training way younger now a days ..:lol

as i said before obviously there a few outliers, but if you really think that the NBA being a part time job in the 50's and 60's compared to being a full time, multi million dollar paying job today has had no affect on the way kids are training today and the time and money being invested into that training, then you are lost

[CavaliersFTW]

so then why was he consistently dominated by 6'9 220 pound Bill Russell?

Every single one of those clips included a double dribble :roll: :roll: Wilt looks like a exact replica of Dwight in the post.. clunky, awkward and lacking skill.

check out this post move right here by Wilt at 1:28

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwns2x_wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-en-espanol_sport

he had very little skill when it came to post moves
He physically and statistically dominated "6-11" 230lb Russell, not the other way around. Don't get it confused. One player was the greatest winner in basketball history ...the other is most dominant ever. Different topics altogether.

[MastaKilla]

He physically and statistically dominated "6-11" 230lb Russell, not the other way around. Don't get it confused. One player was the greatest winner in basketball history ...the other is most dominant ever. Different topics altogether.

delusional :roll: :roll:

here Wilt is at 1:55 "dominating" Russell

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwns2x_wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-en-espanol_sport

[jongib369]

Wilt was a 290-310lb giant that would list 7-3 in today's era and had incredibly large hands 11.5 inches across... He could bring the ball down and do anything he wanted with it and all he needed was simple drop steps and crab dribbles to back people deep into the paint because he is far more physically gifted than 6-9 to 6-10 240-270lb players like Dwight Howard, Hakeem Olajuwon, or anyone else you might wish to mention that struggle to get so consistently deep even if they utilize a wider array of moves such as a Hakeem or McHale. This is where specific research, IE learning just how big and strong Wilt was and how it compares to others comes in to play. Ready to learn anything else?
Don't you know it's easy to steal the ball from one of the strongest players in history with baseball mitt hands?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-stpvAMfx7p0/UMKBdd3uvTI/AAAAAAAAA5o/ZsdrW-gTGLk/s320/wilt+chamberlain+1.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/wilt_chamberlain_1966_02_01.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/wilt_chamberlain_1968_02_01.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/74a9d312385e3a81a5709946ae38562a/tumblr_inline_mvp08jwkkN1r94xu7.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/wilt_chamberlain_1970_10_01.jpg


It'd be like taking candy from a baby.

[MastaKilla]

3:10

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwns2x_wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-en-espanol_sport

my gawd look at those post moves :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[jongib369]

3:10

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwns2x_wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-en-espanol_sport

my gawd look at those post moves :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
On the offensive end how do you think Kareem would fair today?

[hahaitme]

On the offensive end how do you think Kareem would fair today?

Pretty damn well. Against the large number of PF/C hybrids in todays game.

[Blue&Orange]

You contract todays league to 8 teams and the talent pool completely annihilates the 60's. With a 8 team league Wilt still managed to have worse playoffs numbers, that how good the competition was, 8 teams you remove a couple and your number go down.


lol at any "research" that "proves" it otherwise.


You make a 8 team league today and Kobe and Duncan would have 10 titles each, because they would be in the same team.

[tpols]

You contract todays league to 8 teams and the talent pool completely annihilates the 60's. With a 8 team league Wilt still managed to have worse playoffs numbers, that how good the competition was, 8 teams you remove a couple and your number go down.


lol at any "research" that "proves" it otherwise.


You make a 8 team league today and Kobe and Duncan would have 10 titles each, because they would be in the same team.
Kobe and Duncan might be on the same team but so would Dwight and Wade.. Chris Paul and Anthony Davis.. Etc all of the team's would have multiple stars on it. So it would still be very tough to win.

[CavaliersFTW]

You contract todays league to 8 teams and the talent pool completely annihilates the 60's. With a 8 team league Wilt still managed to have worse playoffs numbers, that how good the competition was, 8 teams you remove a couple and your number go down.


lol at any "research" that "proves" it otherwise.
Kind of silly how offended you guys get when a fact is put on the table, a few of you guys perceive it as a threat because you've invested your egos into certain players or whatever so a few posters try and counter it with what are clearly identified ignorant assumptions (because when pressed, hardly any of you actually know any specifics necessary to generalize basketball from the 60's), and once that assumption is exposed as such the ignorant ones predictably take it personal and pile together to dismiss the era as persistently as possible because you got backed into a corner.

The only way to provide points is to learn. To be able to discuss in detail. A mob of vocal ignorant people does not outweigh the few that actually devote time to learn about a given topic.

[LAZERUSS]

as i said before obviously there a few outliers, but if you really think that the NBA being a part time job in the 50's and 60's compared to being a full time, multi million dollar paying job today has had no affect on the way kids are training today and the time and money being invested into that training, then you are lost

Maybe you can explain this to all of us here then...

with all of this so called advancement in "training" that the kids of today are getting...

How come last year's NBA didn't shoot FTs any better than the NBA of 1958-59? And much worse than the NBA of 73-74?

How come the average starting center in TODAY's NBA is not even an inch taller than what Wilt faced in his 50 ppg season. And in fact, if you remove shoes, it is probably LESS? BTW, how is it that a 6-6 Chuck Hayes in playing CENTER in TODAY's NBA?

How come two of TODAY's top tier NBA centers, DeAndre Jordan and Andre Drummond, literally cannot shoot the ball from three-feet away?

And who would ever have thought it possible that just less than four years ago, a 6-8 white guy would run away with the rpg crown? Or that a broken down 6-11 white guy would lead the NBA in bpg? Or that a 37 year old, 6-3 white guy, playing 33 mpg, would lead the NBA in apg? Or that just last year, a 6-4 white starting PG, playing 82 games, and 32 mpg, would shoot .381 from the field?

Furthermore, how many Shaq's have we seen in the NBA since the original one? How many Hakeem's? Where are the MJ's? The Bird's? The KAJ's? The Maravich's? The Wilt's?

Years ago Pat Riley envisioned a team full of Magic Johnson's. We haven't seen one since. In fact, a 36 year old Magic, overweight, aid's ridden, rusty, and out of the NBA for five seasons, came back to average a 15-7-6 stat-line in less than 30 mpg...in 1996. How many players in the CURRENT NBA are even doing that, and at less than 30 mpg? And all of that from a SHELL of what he had been.

How is it that a 38 year old is currently putting up a 14-10 season, and in 30 mpg? Surely, with all these much more athletic players coming into the NBA today from all over the world, the league would have long since passed him by, right?

And speaking of the "talent level"...how do explain a 6-9 white guy winning CPOY just a few years ago...and then coming into the NBA and finding out that he can't shoot, dribble, pass, rebound, or defend? How do explain NBA rosters with players like Ryan Hollins, with a nine year NBA career average of 4 ppg and 2 rpg, (and who, BTW, STARTED tonight, and of course, put up his usual 0-1 game)...and yet, playing in an era of "one-and-done" college players, had a career COLLEGE average of 6 ppg and 4 rpg? How about Javale McGee? A 9 ppg, 5 rpg player in COLLEGE? Th 6-9 Joel Anthony...and EIGHT year NBA veteran, and with NBA career averages of 2-2...and what were his COLLEGE averages? 4-4 ! The man can't shoot, catch, dribble,...he's vastly over-matched as a center, even in THIS era, and horribly outskilled by even average NBA forwards.

And I won't even get into the "bridge" arguments, which have players like a 39 year old KAJ just CRUSHING a 23 year old Hakeem, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 90's, and who gave a young Shaq all he could handle in the mid-90's.

I could go on.,..but CLEARLY, there is NOT an over-abundance TALENT in TODAY's NBA. Not with the MANY CLOWNS manning NBA rosters today.

[LAZERUSS]

delusional :roll: :roll:

here Wilt is at 1:55 "dominating" Russell

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwns2x_wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-en-espanol_sport


How about footage of what a REAL Chamberlain was doing to the NBA...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

And keep in mind that we only have about 2% of Chamberlain's entire career in video. Hell, there is not even ONE of his 271 40+ point games on video (albeit, we do have some footage of his 42 point all-star game...on 17-23 shooting from the field.)


As for the Russell-Wilt debates...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

[DatAsh]

Now compare the Finals MVPs.

Oh wait, Russell didn't win any because he was never the best player on his team. :facepalm

Russell would likely have 7-9 FMVPs and 11-12 DPOYs had they existed and been given out fairly. If anything those other awards skew the table in his favor anymore if we try to "include" them.

[Blue&Orange]

Kind of silly how offended you guys get when a fact is put on the table, a few of you guys perceive it as a threat because you've invested your egos into certain players or whatever so a few posters try and counter it with what are clearly identified ignorant assumptions (because when pressed, hardly any of you actually know any specifics necessary to generalize basketball from the 60's), and once that assumption is exposed as such the ignorant ones predictably take it personal and pile together to dismiss the era as persistently as possible because you got backed into a corner.

The only way to provide points is to learn. To be able to discuss in detail. A mob of vocal ignorant people does not outweigh the few that actually devote time to learn about a given topic.
Twice in this thread your responded with pure gibberish on a exercise of pure deflection when confronted with reality, please child, you that spam this board with wilt threads, talking about invested egos in certain players, are you for real? Who i'm invested in? Melo? Fack Melo!

Would Wilt today be a better player? Sure, he would have tools today he didn't had back then, he would have tons of great basketball players to watch and mimic, he would have watched hours of Kareem, Ewing, etc... tape. Would he dominate today like he did? Hell no, competition much better today. Fact! Deal with it!

[LAZERUSS]

Twice in this thread your responded with pure gibberish on a exercise of pure deflection when confronted with reality, please child, you that spam this board with wilt threads, talking about invested egos in certain players, are you for real? Who i'm invested in? Melo? Fack Melo!

Would Wilt today be a better player? Sure, he would have tools today he didn't had back then, he would have tons of great basketball players to watch and mimic, he would have watch hours of Kareem tape. Would he dominate today like he did? Hell no, competition much better today. Fact! Deal with it!

Answer this then...


Maybe you can explain this to all of us here then...

with all of this so called advancement in "training" that the kids of today are getting...

How come last year's NBA didn't shoot FTs any better than the NBA of 1958-59? And much worse than the NBA of 73-74?

How come the average starting center in TODAY's NBA is not even an inch taller than what Wilt faced in his 50 ppg season. And in fact, if you remove shoes, it is probably LESS? BTW, how is it that a 6-6 Chuck Hayes in playing CENTER in TODAY's NBA?

How come two of TODAY's top tier NBA centers, DeAndre Jordan and Andre Drummond, literally cannot shoot the ball from three-feet away?

And who would ever have thought it possible that just less than four years ago, a 6-8 white guy would run away with the rpg crown? Or that a broken down 6-11 white guy would lead the NBA in bpg? Or that a 37 year old, 6-3 white guy, playing 33 mpg, would lead the NBA in apg? Or that just last year, a 6-4 white starting PG, playing 82 games, and 32 mpg, would shoot .381 from the field?

Furthermore, how many Shaq's have we seen in the NBA since the original one? How many Hakeem's? Where are the MJ's? The Bird's? The KAJ's? The Maravich's? The Wilt's?

Years ago Pat Riley envisioned a team full of Magic Johnson's. We haven't seen one since. In fact, a 36 year old Magic, overweight, aid's ridden, rusty, and out of the NBA for five seasons, came back to average a 15-7-6 stat-line in less than 30 mpg...in 1996. How many players in the CURRENT NBA are even doing that, and at less than 30 mpg? And all of that from a SHELL of what he had been.

How is it that a 38 year old is currently putting up a 14-10 season, and in 30 mpg? Surely, with all these much more athletic players coming into the NBA today from all over the world, the league would have long since passed him by, right?

And speaking of the "talent level"...how do explain a 6-9 white guy winning CPOY just a few years ago...and then coming into the NBA and finding out that he can't shoot, dribble, pass, rebound, or defend? How do explain NBA rosters with players like Ryan Hollins, with a nine year NBA career average of 4 ppg and 2 rpg, (and who, BTW, STARTED tonight, and of course, put up his usual 0-1 game)...and yet, playing in an era of "one-and-done" college players, had a career COLLEGE average of 6 ppg and 4 rpg? How about Javale McGee? A 9 ppg, 5 rpg player in COLLEGE? Th 6-9 Joel Anthony...and EIGHT year NBA veteran, and with NBA career averages of 2-2...and what were his COLLEGE averages? 4-4 ! The man can't shoot, catch, dribble,...he's vastly over-matched as a center, even in THIS era, and horribly outskilled by even average NBA forwards.

And I won't even get into the "bridge" arguments, which have players like a 39 year old KAJ just CRUSHING a 23 year old Hakeem, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 90's, and who gave a young Shaq all he could handle in the mid-90's.

I could go on.,..but CLEARLY, there is NOT an over-abundance TALENT in TODAY's NBA. Not with the MANY CLOWNS manning NBA rosters today.

[Psileas]

You contract todays league to 8 teams and the talent pool completely annihilates the 60's. With a 8 team league Wilt still managed to have worse playoffs numbers, that how good the competition was, 8 teams you remove a couple and your number go down.


lol at any "research" that "proves" it otherwise.


You make a 8 team league today and Kobe and Duncan would have 10 titles each, because they would be in the same team.

LOL, if this post is serious, you can't grasp basic probability matters. Of course Wilt is going to post inferior playoff numbers, as long as teams are few, bringing us to less playoff rounds, bringing us to a bigger % of playoff games being played vs Russell.
Who cares how great an 8 team league "would" be? It won't. And it serves modern stars well, because in an 8 team league, nobody would be sniffing the stats they do now.
The idea that Kobe and Duncan would win 10 titles is also outrageous, they barely won a combined 10 titles in a deluded 30 team league, while already playing for some of the best teams of the past 20 years, but 10 titles in a much more compact league...piece of cake. :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

LOL, if this post is serious, you can't grasp basic probability matters. Of course Wilt is going to post inferior playoff numbers, as long as teams are few, bringing us to less playoff rounds, bringing us to a bigger % of playoff games being played vs Russell.
Who cares how great an 8 team league "would" be? It won't. And it serves modern stars well, because in an 8 team league, nobody would be sniffing the stats they do now.
The idea that Kobe and Duncan would win 10 titles is also outrageous, they barely won a combined 10 titles in a deluded 30 team league, while already playing for some of the best teams of the past 20 years, but 10 titles in a much more compact league...piece of cake. :rolleyes:

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/columns/starting-lineups-bill-russell-provide-evidence-supports-jordan-retirement-conspiracy/


[QUOTE]After some back and forth on the difficulties of winning a championship in a 12-team league, Russell schooled Jordan on why his Bulls would have had no chance:

[Blue&Orange]

LOL, if this post is serious, you can't grasp basic probability matters. Of course Wilt is going to post inferior playoff numbers, as long as teams are few, bringing us to less playoff rounds, bringing us to a bigger % of playoff games being played vs Russell.

Dude, he would face Russel 13\9 times during regular season. :oldlol: It had nothing to do with Russel but with the lack of competition during regular season in a 8 teams league. Either that or he would choke.


Who cares how great an 8 team league "would" be? It won't. And it serves modern stars well, because in an 8 team league, nobody would be sniffing the stats they do now.
Off course they would not. And idiots like yourself would argue even more how great those 60's players were because the stats gap would be even bigger.

Were you arguying with me? Because you did nothing but reinforce my point.


The idea that Kobe and Duncan would win 10 titles is also outrageous, they barely won a combined 10 titles in a deluded 30 team league, while already playing for some of the best teams of the past 20 years, but 10 titles in a much more compact league...piece of cake. :rolleyes:
You're right, it would be much harder than in the 60's, even with the marginally best player in the league, with the marginally best coach and on a well run franchise.


Answer this then...

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/columns/starting-lineups-bill-russell-provide-evidence-supports-jordan-retirement-conspiracy/
I don't have time nor will to research on the scrubs of the 60's. You mention only big guys, everyone knows there's been a lack of quality bigs for years, thanks for pointing the obvious.

A guy like Paxson would be sitting in the stands? Where do you think those player you mentioned would be? :roll:

Thanks for the link pal, it was really helpful to my point. :applause:

[KobesFinger]

@Lazzerruss

Out of curiousity, who are those players? I got Steve Nash but can't think who the others are

[iamgine]

I somewhat agree that the talent level back then was overall way inferior.

How many players from the 50s and 60s would be picked over say...current Demar Derozan. If the talent level back then was high, there must be a lot over two decades who'd be picked over him.

[riseagainst]

Russell is da GOAT because he won 11 in an era where negros were hated and lynched.

[DaRkJaWs]

For the younger fans here that are dumber than a box of rocks: yes, there are more good to great players than in the 60s, of that there should be no doubt. However, that has nothing to do with the level of competition back then compared to now, given that the talents on TEAMS back then was comparative to what it is today. A league with 8-12 teams with MAYBE 1 or 2 of those teams being bad compared to this era with many bad teams and good to great players spread across it (although there is much more parity now than there has been in a long while).

Idiots like that blue&orange retard is who I'm speaking to, btw. Here's some more knowledge for you, dumbo: athleticism=/=skill or length or height. And athleticism only makes a difference if you have the other stuff too, especially when you face players who have that other stuff but no athleticism, like a Dirk. (FYI: no, most of them don't have the skills, which means having a high basketball IQ. God you're stupid.

[DaRkJaWs]

Russell is da GOAT because he won 11 in an era where negros were hated and lynched.
I don't have much sympathy for this line of argument. It's as if people like Oscar and Russell are the only ones that deserve sympathy points while someone like Wilt didn't let it bother him because he let his play do the talking.

[Psileas]

Dude, he would face Russel 13\9 times during regular season. :oldlol: It had nothing to do with Russel but with the lack of competition during regular season in a 8 teams league. Either that or he would choke.

This cretin can't grasp the difference between 10/80 and 1/2 - I won't even bother to explain what each fraction means. Everyone with half a brain cell will understand.
Needless to say, he doesn't also realize that facing 1 great opponent year after year after year can be equally difficult with facing 3 different great opponents in 3 different seasons.



Off course they would not. And idiots like yourself would argue even more how great those 60's players were because the stats gap would be even bigger.

Were you arguying with me? Because you did nothing but reinforce my point.

Would, would, would, as in "Kobe would be with Duncan and would win 10 rings!". :oldlol: I couldn't care less about raw numbers. Just the fact that whoever played in the 60's had to face Wilt and Russell in 1/4 of his games is way more important than raw stats. Keep this "stats!" type of reasoning for dufuses who make you feel at home.


You're right, it would be much harder than in the 60's, even with the marginally best player in the league, with the marginally best coach and on a well run franchise.

Let's pretend this league exists and they've already won 10 ringz, doe. Makes for another great Kobe fairy-tale. :cheers:

[Blue&Orange]

This cretin can't grasp the difference between 10/80 and 1/2 - I won't even bother to explain what each fraction means. Everyone with half a brain cell will understand.
Needless to say, he doesn't also realize that facing 1 great opponent year after year after year can be equally difficult with facing 3 different great opponents in 3 different seasons.

You are seriously dumb. You talked about Wilt numbers being worse because he faced Russel more times in the playoffs, i tell you he faced Russel 13 times during regular season, obviously more than in the playoff, and your response is retarded gibberish about fractions. :applause:

[iamgine]

For the younger fans here that are dumber than a box of rocks: yes, there are more good to great players than in the 60s, of that there should be no doubt. However, that has nothing to do with the level of competition back then compared to now, given that the talents on TEAMS back then was comparative to what it is today. A league with 8-12 teams with MAYBE 1 or 2 of those teams being bad compared to this era with many bad teams and good to great players spread across it (although there is much more parity now than there has been in a long while).

Idiots like that blue&orange retard is who I'm speaking to, btw. Here's some more knowledge for you, dumbo: athleticism=/=skill or length or height. And athleticism only makes a difference if you have the other stuff too, especially when you face players who have that other stuff but no athleticism, like a Dirk. (FYI: no, most of them don't have the skills, which means having a high basketball IQ. God you're stupid.
I would add there's A LOT more good to great players these days. And it's not spread equally. The top teams have more talents. When it comes to the playoff, teams faced a lot better opponents overall.

For example, the 61-62 Detroit Pistons made the playoff and went to the conference finals. Compare that to last year's Portland who also made the semi finals but lost. How many of their players were remotely as good as...Damian Lillard or Lamarcus Aldridge...or even Batum or Wes Matthews.

[AintNoSunshine]

:facepalm That's why we say it was a weak era

[LAZERUSS]

@Lazzerruss

Out of curiousity, who are those players? I got Steve Nash but can't think who the others are

In the 2010-11 season:

As you already know, a 37 year old Nash, (and who I believe is actually shorter than 6-3 BTW), easily won the APG title, and he did so in 33 mpg.

Th 6-8 Kevin Love (draft espress actually lists him at 6-7 3/4 BTW), ran away with the RPG, at 15.2 rpg, and in less than 36 mpg. The 6-9 3/4 Dwight Howard (same height as Russell BTW), came in a distant second at 14.1 rpg.

The 6-11 (no, he is not 7-0) Andrew Bogut, whose career has been plagued by chronic injuries, won the BPG title, at 2.6 bpg. BTW, the 7-0 gifted athlete, Javale McGee was next at 2.4 BPG.

And just last year, Ricky Rubio, starting all 82 games, and playing 32 mpg, shot .381 from the field. Was that a fluke, you ask? Well, in his two previous seasons he shot .357 and .360!


BTW, watch this footage, and you tell me that Rubio was anywhere near the player this guy was...who just so happened to have averaged 44 ppg in his college career in the 60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


Love's 15.2 rpg, and in only 35 mpg, just illustrates the "geezers" arguments that a 7-1+ (likely 7-3 using today's measuring system), 280-300+ lbs, 7-8 wingspan, enormous strength (likely the strongest basketball player of all-time), a college high-jump champion (part-time and with poor technique), with most certainly a 40" vertical, and these skills...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

would be CRUSHING today's NBA players on the glass.


And for those that were fortunate enough to have witnessed basketball in the 60's thru today, Jerry Lucas WAS Kevin Love, long before Love was. 6-8, 230 lbs, and perhaps the greatest long range shooter of his era, too (google the term, "Lucas Layup."

Or that the 6-9 Bob McAdoo (much like Russell, he was listed at 6-10 in college, and would certainly be listed closr to 6-11 today)...was not only a solid rebounder, but he was the "Kevin Durant" of his era. BTW. McAdoo had three straight 30+ ppg seasons, and nearly three straight post-seasons of 30+ ppg (just missed one at 28 ppg.) Think about this...for those that claim that he was scoring in an "inflated" era...in his 74-75 season, he averaged 43.2 mpg, 34.5 ppg, on a .512 FG% (and an .805 FT%), and 14.1 rpg...in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg, shot an eFG% of .457, and averaged 47.1 rpg. How about just LAST YEAR? The NBA averaged 101.0 ppg, on an eFG% of .501, and with 42.7 rpg.


And for those that claim that the NBA of the 60's was nothing but short white part-time shoe salesmen...how do they explain this...

http://www.cornerclubmoscow.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=2


When Johnson played at Idaho in 1963, he already had a reputation as a leaper of the highest order. One evening at the Corner Club, a local tavern on Main Street in Moscow, Johnson was requested by owner Herm Goetz to display his rare ability to the patrons. The Corner Club was a very modest establishment, converted from a white-stuccoed small chapel in the 1940s with hardwood floors and a beamed ceiling. From a standing start near the bar, Johnson touched a spot on a beam 11'6" (3.505 m) above the floor. This spot was ceremoniously marked with a nail by Goetz, who then proudly proclaimed that anyone who could duplicate the feat could drink for free. A 40-inch (1.016 m) diameter circle was painted on the floor, and both feet had to start inside the circle to ensure a standing start. A full 23 years went by with many attempts at Gus Johnson's Nail, including Bill Walton in the summer of 1984, but there were no successes.

That was until 1986, when the College of Southern Idaho basketball team from Twin Falls stopped in town in January on their way to a game against NIC in Coeur d'Alene. Joey Johnson, a younger brother of then NBA star Dennis Johnson, was brought into the Corner Club for a try. The 6'3" (1.905 m) guard had a 48" (1.219 m) vertical leap and could put his chin on a basketball rim (10 feet (3.048 m)) with a running start.

Johnson laced up his shoes and touched the nail on his first try but was disqualified because he did not start with both feet inside the 40-inch circle. The next attempt came from a legal static start but was just a bit short. On his third try, Johnson grabbed and bent the legendary nail, a landmark event in Vandal sports history. Goetz pulled the nail out of the beam and pounded it back in, a half inch (13 mm) higher

Now, we only have a fraction of Gus Johnson's footage, and most of that came later in his career, but here are some highlights from the 6-6 230 lb Johnson...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

Look at that footage...the man had a quality jump shot to over 15 ft.

Now, think about this...

He was a career 17 ppg, 13 rpg, .440 FG% player. In his best seasons in the 60's, his high scoring season was 21 ppg (only one over 20 in his carer), and his high rebounding season in the 60's was 13.6 rpg.

Maybe the "bashers" of the 60's can answer this question...just how did a man who was 6-6 230 lbs, that could shatter MULTIPLE backboards, had as high a vertical as MJ, and had those skills...was "only" a 17-13 player in the 60's? Or that the white 6-6 Dave DeBusschere was generally considered the better player?


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

I get so sick-and-tired of those that claim that today's NBA is much more athletic than in the 60's and 70's.

If it is, it is only SLIGHTLY moreso. But even so...SO WHAT?

If basketball were a game of pure athleticism, Russell would have been scoring 40 ppg in the 60's, as would have Gus Johnson. And players like James White and Javale McGee would be leading the CURRENT NBA in scoring. Hell, Gerald Green, with his spectacular vertical...a CAREER .428 FG% in his NINE NBA seasons.!

Conversely, does anyone believe that Kevin Love could come anywhere as high as Dwight Howard in a leaping contest? And why hasn't McGee been among the leading rebounders?

Height? First of all, the 60's and 70's were LITTERED with 7-0+ players (legitimate 7-0+.) Swede Halbrook was 7-3 (and likely 7-4+ today.) NBA bust. Steve Turner was 7-4 (and likely 7-5+ today)...played college at Vanderbilt...and never made it to the NBA. Tom Burleson was 7-2 and was actually both an excellent college player (he was winning conference tournament MVPs over teammate David Thompson), and a good NBA player, who, unfortunately, suffered early career injuries. Even so, he was never considered anywhere near an elite NBA player in his era.

Factor in that virtually every player in the 60's and 70's were measured in bare feet, and the league would have had a TON of 7-0+ players. HOFers like Thurmond, Bellamy, and Lanier, would all have been listed at 7-0+. BTW, Walton was listed at 6-11, and there are many who would tell you that he was a legitimate seven-footer. Russell was listed at 6-9 in his NBA career, and was a shade under 6-10 (same exact height as Dwight Howard.) Chamberlain was listed at 7-1 (and was a shade over that.)

Back to height. Quick give me a list of all of the legitimate 7-3+ NBA rpg champions. I'll save you some time. ZERO. NADA. How about legitimate 7-2+ NBA rpg champions? In the entire history of the NBA there have been a TOTAL of THREE seasons in which a 7-2+ player has led the NBA in rpg (KAJ with one, and Mutombo with two.) Hell, add in Gilmore's four in his ABA seasons, and it is still only seven.

Conversely, subtract Wilt's ELEVEN, and there have been FAR more RPG titles won by 6-10 or shorter, than 7-0+. The 6-7 Truck Robinson won one. The 6-8 Rodman, in an era of centers like Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq, won SEVEN. Even the 6-5 Charles Barkley won a title. How do explain that?

The Barkley title is interesting. At a shade under 6-5, he led the NBA in rpg in 86-87 at nearly 15 rpg. And yet there are those that scoff at Baylor's 19.8 rpg in '61. Or Lucas' 21.1 rpg in '66. True, neither would sniff those averages today, BUT, if Love could average 15.2 rpg (and in 35 mpg), and Barkley 14.6 rpg, then surely those two would have been capable of those averages, as well.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

"The game is MUCH more advanced today, than in the 60's and 70's."

Is it? Is it REALLY?

The game of basketball was invented in the 1890's (yes the 1890's, and not the 1990's like ESPN might have you believe.) And aside from two major rule's changes...the 24 second shot clock in the mid-50's, and the 3pt shot in the late 70's (actually there were pro leagues using it back in the early 60's, and the ABA used it until the merger)...the game is essentially played today almost EXACTLY same way as it was in the 1890's. Think about this...there were COLLEGES playing the game in the late 1890's. There were PROFESSIONAL teams in the 1920's. The Harlem Globetrotters have been around since 1928.

Again, the game TODAY, with the two major rules changes, and several minor ones (the wider lane in '65...BTW, colleges still use the 12 ft lane; three seconds; offensive and defensive goal-tending, etc), is played with roughly the same sized ball, the same sized hoop (height and diameter), the same size court dimensions, and by the same number of players.

And contrary to what many here would have you believe, it is still a SIMPLE game. There are peewee leagues for cryingoutloud. It is a game of shooting, dribbling, passing, rebounding, and playing defense. Hell, we have WHEELCHAIR leagues.

Of course, the game becomes considerably more complicated at the higher levels, but the reality is, the NBA of today is not dramatically more complicated than it was 50 years ago. Nor are the players dramatically taller, more athletic, or more skilled today, either.

If basketball today is indeed much better, give me the exact season when it became what it is today, ...or even nearly so. Some have pointed to the ABA-NBA merger, while other's to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the '80 season.

Player-for-player...with obvious rare exceptions (and for a variety of reasons) played just as well the season before the merger, as they did after it (at least on the NBA side of that.) And the reality was, the merger added FOUR teams to the NBA, and with a few exceptions, basically replaced average or worse, NBA players. And the truth about the merger? Most of the better ABA players had jumped the ABA long before the merger.

Magic and Bird in 1980? Did those two come in and immediately win MVPs? Nope. The first FOUR MVP winners from the 1980 season on,...ALL players whose career spanned the 70's (and even 60's) into the 80's. How about scoring titles? The first FIVE...players from the 70's. Rebounding titles? The first SIX...yep, you guessed it...players from the 70's. FG% titles? Yep...first FIVE.

Incidently, almost player-for-player, for those whose careers spanned the 70's (and in KAJ's case, the 60's) into the 80's...shot BETTER in the decade of the 80's. Some DRAMATICALLY better (Dantley, Kareem, and especially Gilmore.) How come? Wouldn't the "newer generation" led by the likes of Bird and Magic, have just trampled the geezers from the 70's?

And...the ultimate argument...the "Bridges."

John Havlicek was just as great, at age 35, and in the mid-70's, as he had been at age 25, and in the mid-60's. Rick Barry averaged 35.6 ppg in '66, and ten years later, in '75, 30.6 ppg. A prime Gilmore, at age 27, and in '77, averaged 18.6 ppg on a .522 FG%. A 35 year old Gilmore, in '85, averaged 19.1 ppg on a .623 FG% (and in '82, 18.5 ppg on a .652 FG%.) A 23 year old Lanier averaged a career high 25.7 ppg in '72. In '79... 23.6 ppg. Moses was just as dominant in '83 as he had been in '79.

And how about these... (sorry Hakeem fans)...

Moses Malone, at 33 years old and at the tail-end of his career, was STILL outrebounding a 26 year old Hakeem, in ALL of their H2H's. An Olajuwon who would lead the NBA in rebounding that season.

Or a 34-35 year old Gilmore, just shelling a 22-23 Hakeem in their 10 straight H2H's, with a 23.7 ppg .677 FG%.

Or a 38-39 year old Kareem, in TEN STRAIGHT H2H's just carpet-bombing a 22-23 year old Hakeem with a 32 ppg .630 FG%. Included were THREE games of 40+ points, with a high of 46 (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

BTW, how about this...

A 40 year old Kareem, in FOUR H2H's against a 24 year old Hakeem (and with Sampson out)...outscored Hakeem by an 18.8 ppg to 17.3 ppg margin (BTW, Hakeem averagd 3 more mpg too), and get this...outshot Hakeem from the field by a .564 to .403 FG% margin!

Oh, and in the same week that Kareem just pummelled Hakeem with that 46 point game, he brutalized Patrick Ewing, as well. He outscored Ewing, 40-9, and outshot him from the field by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin!


Ok, so we KNOW that an OLD Kareem, nearing the end of his career, just has his way with Hakeem (and Ewing.) How about a PEAK Kareem, and against the relatively unknown Nate Thurmond (an aging Thurmond.) In their near 40 career H2H's (and a full-time Nate), from '69-70 thru '72-73...KAJ's career HIGH game... 34 points. In fact, he only had FIVE of 30+ against Thurmond in that span. Think about that...a PEAK Kareem, with FIVE 30+ point games in 35 H2H's with Thurmond...and yet a 38-39 year old Kareem, in a span of TEN games against Hakeem... SEVEN.

Then how about this. A 37-41 year old Kareem, and in 23 career H2H's with a 22-26 year Hakeem, outshot Hakeem by a .607 to .512 margin (and outscored him over that span, as well.) In his 35 H2H's with Thurmond...a CAREER .447 FG%.

And we all know that a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the SAME centers that a PRIME Kareem would face a few years later. I won't bother posting the H2H's, but a PRIME Wilt CRUSHED the likes Imhoff, Dierking, Reed, Thurmond, and Bellamy,...FAR more than a PEAK Kareem did in his H2H's with those same centers. And even a past-his-prime Wilt, and just the season before Kareem joined the league, put up 60+ games on Dierking and Jim Fox. In fact, IN KAJ's rookie season, Wilt hung a 43 point game on Dierking. Kareem's high against Dierking and Fox... 41 points.

Carry the above out...a PRIME Wilt was FAR more dominant than a PRIME Kareem. An OLD Kareem just demolished a near prime Hakeem. A PRIME Hakeem gave a young Shaq all he could handle in the mid-90's and even a fading Hakeem held Shaq to a high game of 37 points against him. And yet a 39 year old Kareem was routinely hanging 40+ point games on a young and much more athletic Hakeem. And, of course, Shaq went on to just MURDER of the centers of the late 90's and into the mid-00's.

Are the players of TODAY MUCH greater than those of 40-50 years ago? You tell me. The overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise.

[LAZERUSS]

I would add there's A LOT more good to great players these days. And it's not spread equally. The top teams have more talents. When it comes to the playoff, teams faced a lot better opponents overall.

For example, the 61-62 Detroit Pistons made the playoff and went to the conference finals. Compare that to last year's Portland who also made the semi finals but lost. How many of their players were remotely as good as...Damian Lillard or Lamarcus Aldridge...or even Batum or Wes Matthews.

Take a look at the '66-67 Lakers.

Jerry West and Elgin Baylor...West nearing his prime, and Elgin still close to his. They averaged 29 ppg and 27 ppg respectively.

Then Gail Goodrich, a future HOFer, who, within two years would be scoring 24 ppg. And Mahdi Abdul-Rahman (Walt Hazzard), who, the very next season would average 24 ppg. And Archie Clark, who would be an all-star the very next season, and average 20 ppg. And Rudy LaRussa, who would average 22 ppg the very next season. 6-10 journeyman Darrall Imhoff, who averaged 11 ppg and 13 rpg in that season. Hell, that team also had TWO seven-footers (and one was a PF), in Mel Counts and Henry Finkel.

Surely with all of that talent they were a dominant team, right? Well, not quite. They went 36-45. True, they did make the playoffs, but were swept by the even-more talented 44-37 Warriors in the first round (albeit, West was out for that series.) BUT, during the regular season, the Lakers went 3-6 against the Warriors, including losses by margins of 122-91, 130-107, 144-109, and 132-93.

Can you imagine the '10-11 Miami Heat, with a prime Lebron, and a near prime Wade (the Baylor and West of this era)...going 36-45, and being swept in the first round?

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Russell won titles in 11 of his 13 seasons (and was injured in a Finals in which he did not win)...and in leagues with 8, 9, 10, 12, and 14 teams. He also played on three title teams that did not have HCA, including a 4th seed that had to win THREE series without HCA.

Of course those Celtic teams just coasted to those 11 titles, too, right? In his post-seasons, he played on a team that won a SEVENTH game, TEN times. And out of those ten seven game series, SEVEN were decided by FOUR points, or less (and even two OT wins.) 10-0 in game seven's, and again, seven of those by an eyelash.

[Psileas]

You are seriously dumb. You talked about Wilt numbers being worse because he faced Russel more times in the playoffs, i tell you he faced Russel 13 times during regular season, obviously more than in the playoff, and your response is retarded gibberish about fractions. :applause:

Nice trolling, dude. That's the best I can say for you. Hopefully, I'm right.

[SyRyanYang]

so you agree that players back then were working part time jobs to make ends meet?

kind of different when Duncan & Kobe are going up against professional athletes while Russell is going up against part time store clerks

/thread

[DatAsh]

You are seriously dumb. You talked about Wilt numbers being worse because he faced Russel more times in the playoffs, i tell you he faced Russel 13 times during regular season, obviously more than in the playoff, and your response is retarded gibberish about fractions. :applause:

He's right though. Fractions matter here.

[iamgine]

Take a look at the '66-67 Lakers.

Jerry West and Elgin Baylor...West nearing his prime, and Elgin still close to his. They averaged 29 ppg and 27 ppg respectively.

Then Gail Goodrich, a future HOFer, who, within two years would be scoring 24 ppg. And Mahdi Abdul-Rahman (Walt Hazzard), who, the very next season would average 24 ppg. And Archie Clark, who would be an all-star the very next season, and average 20 ppg. And Rudy LaRussa, who would average 22 ppg the very next season. 6-10 journeyman Darrall Imhoff, who averaged 11 ppg and 13 rpg in that season. Hell, that team also had TWO seven-footers (and one was a PF), in Mel Counts and Henry Finkel.

Surely with all of that talent they were a dominant team, right? Well, not quite. They went 36-45. True, they did make the playoffs, but were swept by the even-more talented 44-37 Warriors in the first round (albeit, West was out for that series.) BUT, during the regular season, the Lakers went 3-6 against the Warriors, including losses by margins of 122-91, 130-107, 144-109, and 132-93.

Can you imagine the '10-11 Miami Heat, with a prime Lebron, and a near prime Wade (the Baylor and West of this era)...going 36-45, and being swept in the first round?
We really got to take HOF pretty lightly when it comes to 50s and 60s players. No one would take HOFer Bob Cousy over Damian Lillard. Would anyone really take Rudy Larussa over say...Serge Ibaka?

[dubeta]

COMBINE the first 12 posters in this thread and you would have a team comparable to those Russell faced

[talkingconch]

bill russell is not a top 10, barely

alot of evidence has proved this in this thread already. just because u have 10 rings or whatever doesnt mean shit if it was in the 1950-60's

[Blue&Orange]

Nice trolling, dude. That's the best I can say for you. Hopefully, I'm right.
Dumb people always think they are right, even after being completely owned. They also don't know when to shut up, so they keep embarrassing themselfs. :lol

[Psileas]

Dumb people always think they are right, even after being completely owned. They also don't know when to shut up, so they keep embarrassing themselfs. :lol

True. Keep talking.

[Blue&Orange]

True. Keep talking.
Ok

I tell you wilt managed to be knowed as a playoff dipper in a league with 8 teams, you tell me it was not because lack of competition in a 8 team league, but because he would face Russel more times in the playoffs, i tell you he faced Russel 13 times during regular season, you talk about fractions :roll:


Hopefully you are right! :applause:


Like i said dumb people don't known when to shut up.

[LAZERUSS]

We really got to take HOF pretty lightly when it comes to 50s and 60s players. No one would take HOFer Bob Cousy over Damian Lillard. Would anyone really take Rudy Larussa over say...Serge Ibaka?


Oh no doubt. You are absolutely correct. Just look at some other examples...

John Stockton. Does anyone think that clown could make an NBA roster today? C'mon, I bet you can't name another HOF guard that played in his era, much less one that could make a roster today.

Steve Nash. Look, this is truly laughable. Sure he won B2B MVPs, but that was nearly a decade ago. Again, does anyone think a peak Kobe could play in TODAY's NBA?

Ricky Rubio. The sharp-shooting Rubio. BTW, can you give us his career FG% again? And while you are at it, how about his FG% from just last season?


How about Ibaka over say Jerry Lucas? No way a 6-8 Lucas would be a HOFer in TODAY's era, right. We know that because you just don't see 6-8 white guys putting up 26-12 seasons in TODAY's NBA.


Thanks for educating all of us here.

[iamgine]

Oh no doubt. You are absolutely correct. Just look at some other examples...

John Stockton. Does anyone think that clown could make an NBA roster today? C'mon, I bet you can't name another HOF guard that played in his era that could make a roster today.

Steve Nash. Look, this is truly laughable. Sure he won B2B MVPs, but that was nearly a decade ago. Again, does anyone think a peak Kobe could play in TODAY's NBA?

Ricky Rubio. A CAREER .368 shooter. Shot .381 just last year.


How about Ibaka over say Jerry Lucas? No way a 6-8 Lucas would be a HOFer in TODAY's era, right. We know that because you just don't see 6-8 white guys putting up 26-12 seasons in TODAY's NBA.


Thanks for educating all of us here.
No no. I was talking about Bob Cousy and how no one would pick him over Lillard. Not about John Stockton, nor Steve Nash, nor Rubio.

[Psileas]

Ok

I tell you wilt managed to be knowed as a playoff dipper in a league with 8 teams, you tell me it was not because lack of competition in a 8 team league, but because he would face Russel more times in the playoffs, i tell you he faced Russel 13 times during regular season, you talk about fractions :roll:


Hopefully you are right! :applause:


Like i said dumb people don't known when to shut up.

Yes, dude, idiots, who can't even recognise that "more times" means nothing when, compared to the total games and expressed as a fraction, it becomes much less, don't know when to shut up. So, please, continue, more and more people in this thread laugh at your bullshit, who am I to stop their entertainment? :oldlol:

[swagga]

COMBINE the first 12 posters in this thread and you would have a team comparable to those Russell faced

damn niggga went all in :lol

[GimmeThat]

A>B,C
B>C,D
C>D
D>A

and that is how I feel about titles in modern era compared to the old era

if you want to say that D never existed in the Russel era

feel free to put up with the Wilts fan club




don't we just love sports

[pudman13]

You can't tell me how old Elgin Baylor, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Lew Alcindor, or Pete Maravich were when they first touched a basketball.. nor which ones had off season jobs and which ones did not, and how much time each one devoted to practice and how that compares to how specific individuals today practice.

I would suggest that there may never have been anyone who spent as much time practicing with a basketball by, say, age 20, as Pete Maravich.

[AzzKicker]

LOL this thread title and purpose are COMPLETELY inaccurate if you look at OP's images. Trophies for Duncan + Kobe = 18; Bill Russel = 16. 18 > 16.

[Bigsmoke]

The Celtics was loaded from top to bottom.

you tried playing against them in NBA 2k12?

[IncarceratedBob]

Why do people still bring up Russell? It's not even relevant anymore. We have so many stories to talk about in todays NBA and these geezers still bring up Russell. I don't know how they even learned to use the internet. No one should care about how good Russell was.

[pudman13]

Why do people still bring up Russell? It's not even relevant anymore. We have so many stories to talk about in todays NBA and these geezers still bring up Russell. I don't know how they even learned to use the internet. No one should care about how good Russell was.

http://nypdecider.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/you-fool.png?w=720&h=480&crop=1

[LAZERUSS]

The Celtics was loaded from top to bottom.

you tried playing against them in NBA 2k12?

The Celtics of the 60's became the Knicks (and Celtics) of the 70's...and later became known as the 2014 Spurs.

[pudman13]

The Celtics of the 60's became the Knicks (and Celtics) of the 70's...and later became known as the 2014 Spurs.

Also the 1986 Celtics

[LAZERUSS]

Why do people still bring up Russell? It's not even relevant anymore. We have so many stories to talk about in todays NBA and these geezers still bring up Russell. I don't know how they even learned to use the internet. No one should care about how good Russell was.

And yet YOU took YOUR valuable time to peruse the topic, and then wasted even more of your's, and our's, valuable time, to post a comment about how you don't care about it.

[LAZERUSS]

Also the 1986 Celtics

100% agreed.

:applause: