Kobe Bryant is the most skilled offensive player in NBA history.

[ImKobe]

This is a fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5csF3Mc20


He will demolish the Raptors tonight.

EDIT:

31/11/12 on 46% shooting (24 shots)

stay mad.

[Im Still Ballin]

Demarcus Cousins called.

[ImKobe]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/e0eb3adbf7644d359525fc578ab6c524/tumblr_mv4q7eOo3d1sl53p3o1_500.gif

[StephHamann]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY9HjNWbJvA

:applause:

[outbreak]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Wilt_Chamberlain_100-point.jpg

[lilteapot]

Demarcus Cousins called.
Really dude? You could have named ANYONE else and of ALL people, DEMARCUS COUSINS calls. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: Not steph curry, not james harden, but DEMARCUS COUSINS.

[outbreak]

Really dude? You could have named ANYONE else and of ALL people, DEMARCUS COUSINS calls. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: Not steph curry, not james harden, but DEMARCUS COUSINS.

The heading was "in NBA history" as well. Demarcus Cousins the most skilled offensive player IN NBA HISTORY. :roll:

[Im Still Ballin]

Really dude? You could have named ANYONE else and of ALL people, DEMARCUS COUSINS calls. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: Not steph curry, not james harden, but DEMARCUS COUSINS.
He will go down as one of the best centers of all time.

[stalkerforlife]

People can laugh if they like, but the OP is right. Kobe is the most skilled player in NBA history. He is not physically dominant at 210 pounds, not even close. He got to where he is with hard work that led to skill.

Maybe the most respectable all time great after Jordan.

[fpliii]

Maybe. Bird?

[T_L_P]

Who gives a shit about skill. He's not the most effective. Period.

[DMAVS41]

Perhaps...he certainly has an argument.

Bird was pretty damn skilled though. I mean...he was a better shooter and passer than Kobe....and had beautiful footwork just like Kobe.

I'd go with Bird if I had to pick...but in terms of being able to do everything from take a guy off the dribble, bomb threes, post, mid range, finish around the rim, finish with contact...etc.

Kobe is about as good as anyone in terms of skill.

It's a shame he didn't convert that skill to actual value as well as many other guys have.

[Im Still Ballin]

Demarcus has it all.

The hook shot, the bank shot, the up and under, the pump fake, the 20 footer, the floater, the drive to the hoop, the shaq power move, etc...

He could probably shoot 3's at a 40% clip on 2 attempts a game.

[VeeCee15]

Problem is, Kobe isn't that physically gifted.

Narrow shoulders..low strength

small hands

Above average vertical

No brain.

[DMAVS41]

Problem is, Kobe isn't that physically gifted.

Narrow shoulders..low strength

small hands

Above average vertical

No brain.

Kobe's small hands definitely held him back a bit, but truly it's his in game IQ that hurt him more than anything.

[sportjames23]

Kobe's small hands definitely held him back a bit, but truly it's his in game IQ that hurt him more than anything.


This is true. Specifically, his decision-making.

He needs to learn from Lebron when it comes to decisions.

[ArbitraryWater]

Problem is, Kobe isn't that physically gifted.

Narrow shoulders..low strength

small hands

Above average vertical

No brain.


LMFAO :oldlol:

[Micku]

Definitely a contender for one of the most skilled in NBA history. He has a library of moves.

However, what do we mean when we say by skills in offense? One on one ability to be able to score, which will have variety of categories, or the ability to make the team offense better?

At what point do we consider the efficiency as a part of skill? Afterall, would good is it knowing the different moves if you cannot convert it as well as others?

If I say that player A is skillful in the post, what comes to your mind first? Is it that he knows a lot of post moves, that he is efficient regardless of moves, or a mixture of both but not a master of either?

[tpols]

Definitely a contender for one of the most skilled in NBA history. He has a library of moves.

However, what do we say when we mean by skills in offense? One on one ability to be able to score, which will have variety of categories, or the ability to make the team offense better?

At what point do we consider the efficiency as a part of skill? Afterall, would good is it knowing the different moves if you cannot convert it as well as others?

If I say that player A is skillful in the post, what comes to your mind first? Is it that he knows a lot of post moves, that he is efficient regardless of moves, or a mixture of both but not a master of either?

If a player is just using one move over and over he is likely taking advantage of his own physical dominance rather than being more skilled than his opponent.. With the defensive player being unable to adapt to it because they physically cant(ie Shaq sealing you off and laying it in multiple times).

[stalkerforlife]

Perhaps...he certainly has an argument.

Bird was pretty damn skilled though. I mean...he was a better shooter and passer than Kobe....and had beautiful footwork just like Kobe.

I'd go with Bird if I had to pick...but in terms of being able to do everything from take a guy off the dribble, bomb threes, post, mid range, finish around the rim, finish with contact...etc.

Kobe is about as good as anyone in terms of skill.

It's a shame he didn't convert that skill to actual value as well as many other guys have.

:roll:

[DMAVS41]

If a player is just using one move over and over he is likely taking advantage of his own physical dominance rather than being more skilled than his opponent.. With the defensive player being unable to adapt to it because they physically cant(ie Shaq sealing you off and laying it in multiple times).

Very much agree with this.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe has the best basketball IQ in the league, which is why he is so skilled.

HOWEVER, alpha overrides anything and everything. Kobe is the most alpha player in the world and that forces him to do it HIS WAY. He takes all the blame and all the reward.

Alpha > IQ.

[Smoke117]

Kobe has the best basketball IQ in the league, which is why he is so skilled.

HOWEVER, alpha overrides anything and everything. Kobe is the most alpha player in the world and that forces him to do it HIS WAY. He takes all the blame and all the reward.

Alpha > IQ.


http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8m1tmI7Hy1r3ty02o1_400.gif

[stalkerforlife]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8m1tmI7Hy1r3ty02o1_400.gif

Betas live in self denial and refuse to accept the way life works.

I'm a beta and i've accepted it, unlike most.

[SexSymbol]

Demarcus Cousins called.
then appologised for calling the wrong number

[NZStreetBaller]

Demarcus Cousins called.

And it went to kobes voice maill.....

Please leave a message when you have more accolades beeeeeeeep.

[lilteapot]

Lol at Kobe not being that physically gifted.

[PickernRoller]

OP is correct...lol at the haters swooping in with amateurish troll bait....

DMavs still a slut I see...no self respect.

[Im Still Ballin]

And it went to kobes voice maill.....

Please leave a message when you have more accolades beeeeeeeep.
Another example of Kobe's ego, which is also his downfall.

[j3lademaster]

This is a fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5csF3Mc20


He will demolish the Raptors tonight.Where are the jumpballtips? 1/5

[Smoke117]

Lol at Kobe not being that physically gifted.

Seriously. Apparently because he's not at the premier, premier level of athleticism he "was never that athletic". It's absurd. People always talk about how Ray Allen was athletic and could do this and that when he was younger...and here Kobe is MORE ATHLETIC than him and talked about as...not that athletic.

[SugarHill]

Seriously. Apparently because he's not at the premier, premier level of athleticism he "was never that athletic". It's absurd. People always talk about how Ray Allen was athletic and could do this and that when he was younger...and here Kobe is MORE ATHLETIC than him and talked about as...not that athletic.

A lot of shooting guards and small forwards have come in this league that have been as good or better than Kobe physically but hardly any have been even in his stratosphere as a player. :confusedshrug:

[hahaitme]

Can't believe the mods let this type of trolling go on lol.

[DMAVS41]

Seriously. Apparently because he's not at the premier, premier level of athleticism he "was never that athletic". It's absurd. People always talk about how Ray Allen was athletic and could do this and that when he was younger...and here Kobe is MORE ATHLETIC than him and talked about as...not that athletic.

Saying Kobe was "not that athletic" is of course stupid, but he's just not the kind of freak athlete of a Lebron or MJ or Hakeem or Barkley or Robinson...etc.

I think that is what people are saying.

Kobe's physical gifts are actually very good even on NBA standards....he's just not some freak athlete....

[Im so nba'd out]

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/d42358b8ea913b168b27e8ac33004a93f12e785.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/429269/raja-bell-clotheslines-kobe-o.gif
https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/IeqtY0165ZxanUbQEQnRMdOIfLs=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2402708/eblow.0.gif
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.425973!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_1200/alg-artest-bryant-jpg.jpg

he is the most cringe worthy player of all time.Like how many times do you have to get bitched on national tv til you stand up for yourself.

[sportjames23]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[masonanddixon]

This is correct.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I fail to see how he's significantly more skilled than Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, Dirk Nowitzki, and plenty of other guys far less athletic than him who were/are comparable players.

[gts]

I fail to see how he's significantly more skilled than Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, Dirk Nowitzki, and plenty of other guys far less athletic than him who were/are comparable players.

No surprise here...You fail at a lot of things concerning hoops

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No surprise here...You fail at a lot of things concerning hoops
Excellent argument. You bring up a lot of good points.

[ImKobe]

4-4, 8/2/4 after the first quarter

[f0und]

no

[Round Mound]

And One of The Most Inefficient Top 20 Players of All Time. A Better Version of Allen Iverson, That`s As Much As I Would Give Him.

[stalkerforlife]

And One of The Most Inefficient Top 20 Players of All Time. A Better Version of Allen Iverson, That`s As Much As I Would Give Him.

You don't understand the game of basketball if you think Kobe is inefficient.

[Milbuck]

And One of The Most Inefficient Top 20 Players of All Time. A Better Version of Allen Iverson, That`s As Much As I Would Give Him.
Career TS%:

Kobe: 56%
Bird: 56%
Lebron: 58%
Jordan: 57%
Wade: 57%
T-Mac: 52%
West: 55%
Dr. J: 56%
Durant: 60%
Melo: 55%

[stalkerforlife]

Career TS%:

Kobe: 56%
Bird: 56%
Lebron: 58%
Jordan: 57%
Wade: 57%
T-Mac: 52%
West: 55%
Dr. J: 56%
Durant: 60%
Melo: 55%

Ether.

[ImKobe]

I called it.

[ImKobe]

Another Kobe Bryant classic. Good call OP. :applause:

I wonder how many players put up 30/10/10 at 36+ yrs old.:bowdown:

[Rake2204]

Career TS%:

Kobe: 56%
Bird: 56%
Lebron: 58%
Jordan: 57%
Wade: 57%
T-Mac: 52%
West: 55%
Dr. J: 56%
Durant: 60%
Melo: 55%I have a question regarding TS%. I am not very savvy with extended statistics - is TS just a combination of field goal attempts and free throws? Can one's TS% be heavily bolstered by just being a deadeye free throw shooter, possibly accommodating for non-free throw shortcomings?

Also, do big men who shoot so-so from the line tend to measure very high with TS%? I'd feel like an inside player like David Robinson, who shot over 50% and made a good portion of his free throws would have a pretty big TS%, no?

Am I way off on this? Help?

[Mr. Jabbar]

and it aint even close

[PsychoBe]

I have a question regarding TS%. I am not very savvy with extended statistics - is TS just a combination of field goal attempts and free throws? Can one's TS% be heavily bolstered by just being a deadeye free throw shooter, possibly accommodating for non-free throw shortcomings?

Also, do big men who shoot so-so from the line tend to measure very high with TS%? I'd feel like an inside player like David Robinson, who shot over 50% and made a good portion of his free throws would have a pretty big TS%, no?

Am I way off on this? Help?

it's called "true" shooting percentage because it literally takes into account every type of shot you could make/attempt.

a free-throw is a shot, a jumper is a shot, a dunk is a shot, a lay-up is a shot, a 3-pointer is a shot,

it averages out every type of shot you have made/attempted.

that way big-men who shoot 50+% from the field who also happen to be poor free-throw shooters, dont look like dead-eye "Scorers"/"shooters" just because 100% of their attempts will always be underneath the basket. if you're a big-man like cousins who can make your free-throws then more power to you.

[Milbuck]

I have a question regarding TS%. I am not very savvy with extended statistics - is TS just a combination of field goal attempts and free throws? Can one's TS% be heavily bolstered by just being a deadeye free throw shooter, possibly accommodating for non-free throw shortcomings?

Also, do big men who shoot so-so from the line tend to measure very high with TS%? I'd feel like an inside player like David Robinson, who shot over 50% and made a good portion of his free throws would have a pretty big TS%, no?

Am I way off on this? Help?
Yeah it's a combination of field goals and free throws, a combined stat for overall scoring/shooting efficiency. It also combines points with shooting possessions. Obviously it doesn't adjust for defenses or anything like that, like the transition from regular season to playoffs with the way fouls are called (see Harden, James), but overall it's pretty accurate in measuring overall scoring efficiency.

But yeah you're right, because it factors in all aspects of scoring efficiency it does somewhat hurt big men who can't shoot well from the line. It's nothing drastic though, the insanely efficient dominant bigs are still (very) positively reflected in TS%. Example being Shaq, career 58% shooter from the field, but because of his terrible FT% his TS% is 59%. Which is still way above average and terrific efficiency, just not otherworldly like his FG%.

[STATUTORY]

and it aint even close

:applause: :applause: truth

[Rake2204]

Yeah it's a combination of field goals and free throws, a combined stat for overall scoring/shooting efficiency. It also combines points with shooting possessions. Obviously it doesn't adjust for defenses or anything like that, like the transition from regular season to playoffs with the way fouls are called (see Harden, James), but overall it's pretty accurate in measuring overall scoring efficiency.

But yeah you're right, because it factors in all aspects of scoring efficiency it does somewhat hurt big men who can't shoot well from the line. It's nothing drastic though, the insanely efficient dominant bigs are still (very) positively reflected in TS%. Example being Shaq, career 58% shooter from the field, but because of his terrible FT% his TS% is 59%. Which is still way above average and terrific efficiency, just not otherworldly like his FG%.Appreciate the response.

So from what I gather, TS% can give another angle on things, but still leaves a lot of room for interpretation, yeah? As in, if a player has a high free throw percentage but not a skyrocketed TS%, could it be suggested their on-court play may not be highly efficient (not talking about Bryant, as he seems to have a solid number)?

[PsychoBe]

Appreciate the response.

wtf i responded too

negged

[Rake2204]

wtf i responded too

neggedHa, apologies. He was just the easiest to quote, being the most recent.

[PsychoBe]

Ha, apologies. He was just the easiest to quote, being the most recent.

you're lucky that i was nice enough to rep you instead :cheers:

[Rake2204]

you're lucky that i was nice enough to rep you instead :cheers:http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/a-toast.gif

[Milbuck]

Appreciate the response.

So from what I gather, TS% can give another angle on things, but still leaves a lot of room for interpretation, yeah? As in, if a player has a high free throw percentage but not a skyrocketed TS%, could it be suggested their on-court play may not be highly efficient (not talking about Bryant, as he seems to have a solid number)?
Yeah that's a fair interpretation. Case in point, James Harden right now..dude is shooting 40.5% from the field which isn't very good at all, but is rocking a 58% TS which is great, because of his high volume of 3s and FTs (which he hits at a terrific rate). And the number makes sense, he's giving you 25 ppg on just under 18 shots a game, even with the poor shooting from the field. Though like you said in this instance the stat isn't totally indicative of his actual skill level and scoring arsenal, which gets exposed under tougher defenses and less forgiving officiating.

So yeah it's not something that tells all about someone's scoring ability, you gotta use it in conjunction with the eye test and context, but all in all it's one of the better metrics out there.

Also repped to make up for Psychobe's neg :oldlol:

[PsychoBe]

Also repped to make up for Psychobe's neg :oldlol:

nikka i repped him :roll: :roll: :roll:

negged for repping

jk

[Rake2204]

I didn't know what to do, so I just positively contributed to both of your reputations.

[PsychoBe]

I didn't know what to do, so I just positively contributed to both of your reputations.

thanks i got my second greenbar back :cheers:

[PHILA]

most skilled offensive player in NBA history
Guard - Robertson
Forward - Bird
Center - K.A.J.

[3ball]

Guard - Robertson
Forward - Bird
Center - K.A.J.
:cheers:

it's pretty clear-cut to me... and maybe Magic could be in there at the guard or forward position too.

[3ball]

goat handle for a 6'6" guy or taller?

THE goat pull-up jumper?

i think so for kobe on both..

regarding the pull-up jumpshot - there are only two players in history that are on the top level - everyone else is at least a dimension below.

[Round Mound]

39.2% fg! :eek:

[Round Mound]

Guard - Robertson
Forward - Bird
Center - K.A.J.

:applause:

[GimmeThat]

as long as he can still dunk.


I suppose

[Asukal]

One of the most skilled sure, also one of the dumbest in shot selections. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

39.2% fg! :eek:

Hater.

31/11/12

stay mad.

[sick_brah07]

Demarcus has it all.

The hook shot, the bank shot, the up and under, the pump fake, the 20 footer, the floater, the drive to the hoop, the shaq power move, etc...

He could probably shoot 3's at a 40% clip on 2 attempts a game.

I love cousins but common lol alltime ?

[sick_brah07]

:applause:


Common obertson isnt even more skilled then mike

[ArbitraryWater]

negged for repping the negged negger

[gts]

Guard - Robertson
:facepalm
He wasn't even the best guard of his era

[SugarHill]

:facepalm
He wasn't even the best guard of his era
:biggums:

who was better? Jerry West? :lol

[PHILA]

:facepalm He wasn't even the best guard of his era

That is a good comparison, but in looking at the top skilled guard with the least weaknesses, Big O is the first that comes to mind for me.

ThaRegul8r has posted a quote from West comparing himself to Robertson:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6364549&postcount=42

Oscar Robertson is the single most talented man I’ve ever observed in this game. There is not anything he does not do brilliantly. And he does everything naturally. He seems to have been born with a rhythm for basketball that no other man has ever had. Only Elgin rates close to him in this regard. Being a smaller man and a guard, Oscar has not been able to dominate games the way Russell has or thus be as valuable as Russell has been. But for sheer talent I consider Robertson the best I’ve ever faced.

Who’s better, Oscar or me? This is the one single question that has been asked more often that any other since I’ve been playing basketball. And it is really for others to decide, if it can be decided. But I personally have always felt that Oscar was the best.

He has had two big advantages over me. Number one: while we play the same position, he has greater size, which gives him some advantages. And number two: he’s a better ball-handler and passer. That’s for sure. I think we’re about equal as shooters. I’m a better outside shooter, but Oscar is better inside. I may have two advantages over him. One, I’m better defensively. And two (and I’m being so honest about this that it scares me a little), I do believe I’ve played better and done more than he has in certain situations when it counts the most.

[bizil]

In terms of score first players who are also great passers, Kobe is right at the top with these guys:

MJ
Kobe
West
Pistol Pete
T-Mac

And out of these guys, I think Kobe has the best total scoring skillset. It's damn close though, but I would give Kobe the edge over these guys.


When it comes to pass first players who are great scorers:

Big O
Lebron
Magic
Isiah-CP3-Tiny style PG
Frazier-Payton style PG

Out of these guys, I think would go with Big O. And Bird is the ANAMOLY and in his own category because it's hard to say if he was score first or pass first. He was one of the greatest shooters ever as well as one of the greatest passers ever all in one.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Clear hyperbole there, but I agree that Kobe's definitely one of the most skilled players ever, at the top along with players such as Bird, Nash, Jordan, West, CP3, Pistol Pete, Big O, so on... I'd probably have Larry as #1.

[andgar923]

I know Kobe stans are mentally challenged and all, but really?

A. Bird might be the best
B. WhAtever Kobe can do MJ does it better, only thing even worthy of comparing is 3pt shooting.
C. Kobe stans are delirious

[plowking]

Serious question...

Why is Kobe Bryant considered more skilled than a guy like Pistol Pete, Oscar Robertson, Lebron James, Larry Bird, etc.

All these guys have shown they can score as much, are better passers, and in Bird's case in particular, is a better shooters from a large area of the court.

So what makes Kobe more skilled? He clearly isn't as multi-faceted as the guys I mentioned, yet he is more skilled?

[stalkerforlife]

Serious question...

Why is Kobe Bryant considered more skilled than a guy like Pistol Pete, Oscar Robertson, Lebron James, Larry Bird, etc.

All these guys have shown they can score as much, are better passers, and in Bird's case in particular, is a better shooters from a large area of the court.

So what makes Kobe more skilled? He clearly isn't as multi-faceted as the guys I mentioned, yet he is more skilled?

:roll:

[DatAsh]

Maybe. Bird?

Maybe, Bird had that height though.

[DatAsh]

Seriously. Apparently because he's not at the premier, premier level of athleticism he "was never that athletic". It's absurd. People always talk about how Ray Allen was athletic and could do this and that when he was younger...and here Kobe is MORE ATHLETIC than him and talked about as...not that athletic.

Kobe's probably in the top 10% in terms of athleticism at the SG position. I still agree that he is up there as arguably the most skilled player ever though. Both of those factors together make him one of the best players ever.

[DatAsh]

I know Kobe stans are mentally challenged and all, but really?

A. Bird might be the best
B. WhAtever Kobe can do MJ does it better, only thing even worthy of comparing is 3pt shooting.
C. Kobe stans are delirious

Kobe has better footwork than Jordan from virtually every position on the court. He's also displayed a slightly larger array of post moves. He's also - as you mentioned - a better 3 point shooter, and has a better handle.

Jordan was better at making quick decisions to exploit holes in defenses, better at adapting to defenders around the rim, had a better midrange shot, better off ball movement, and had better hands and instincts on defense.

Jordan's other advantages I wouldn't really classify as skill, though I guess you could(I see them more as a product of athleticism and drive). He had a much quicker first step(this is huge), he jumped higher, had better control of the ball(bigger hands), was quicker on defense, had better stamina, and gave much more effort on defense.

I'd give Kobe the slight edge in terms of skill. Even on defense he's shown that he can be almost as good as Jordan when he really wants to be. Jordan had quicker feet and hands and jumped higher for blocks, but I see those factors as more athleticism based. What really separates Jordan and Kobe on the defensive end is drive(or maybe stamina). Jordan was obviously the better player though.

[andgar923]

Kobe has better footwork than Jordan from virtually every position on the court. He's also displayed a slightly larger array of post moves. He's also - as you mentioned - a better 3 point shooter, and has a better handle.

Jordan was better at making quick decisions to exploit holes in defenses, better at adapting to defenders around the rim, had a better midrange shot, better off ball movement, and had better hands and instincts on defense.

Jordan's other advantages I wouldn't really classify as skill, though I guess you could(I see them more as a product of athleticism and drive). He had a much quicker first step(this is huge), he jumped higher, had better control of the ball(bigger hands), was quicker on defense, had better stamina, and gave much more effort on defense.

I'd give Kobe the slight edge in terms of skill. Even on defense he's shown that he can be almost as good as Jordan when he really wants to be. Jordan had quicker feet and hands and jumped higher for blocks, but I see those factors as more athleticism based. What really separates Jordan and Kobe on the defensive end is drive(or maybe stamina). Jordan was obviously the better player though.

:roll: :roll: stopped reading at first sentence.

[Smoke117]

Kobe has better footwork than Jordan from virtually every position on the court. He's also displayed a slightly larger array of post moves. He's also - as you mentioned - a better 3 point shooter, and has a better handle.

Jordan was better at making quick decisions to exploit holes in defenses, better at adapting to defenders around the rim, had a better midrange shot, better off ball movement, and had better hands and instincts on defense.

Jordan's other advantages I wouldn't really classify as skill, though I guess you could(I see them more as a product of athleticism and drive). He had a much quicker first step(this is huge), he jumped higher, had better control of the ball(bigger hands), was quicker on defense, had better stamina, and gave much more effort on defense.

I'd give Kobe the slight edge in terms of skill. Even on defense he's shown that he can be almost as good as Jordan when he really wants to be. Jordan had quicker feet and hands and jumped higher for blocks, but I see those factors as more athleticism based. What really separates Jordan and Kobe on the defensive end is drive(or maybe stamina). Jordan was obviously the better player though.


Anybody else love idiots that post the...IF HE WANTS TO BE GARBAGE?!:! LMFAO

Pathetic. http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

[Smoke117]

I could be an all time NBA DEFENDER you guys...YA KNOW IF I WANTED TO...

[tpols]

All these guys have shown they can score as much, are better passers, and in Bird's case in particular, is a better shooters from a large area of the court.
?

Scoring as much is the result of some mix of physical dominance and skill. Different players have varying degrees of both.

Lebron James for instance was a 30+ ppg scorer before he ever even had a post game. He was tremendously skilled still, especially with dribbling and passing, but his combo of size and speed were more responsible for his output than say a guy like Larry Bird.. who had a much smaller, if it was even present at all, physical advantage over his peers.

Kobe/Bird/MJ/Nash/Stockton/Duncan etc most skilled


Lebron would be in the physically dominant category with Wilt/Shaq moreso.

[DatAsh]

Anybody else love idiots that post the...IF HE WANTS TO BE GARBAGE?!:! LMFAO

Pathetic. http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

I think you misunderstand me. There is a huge gap between Jordan and Kobe as defenders.

[DatAsh]

:roll: :roll: stopped reading at first sentence.

You should read the rest, I'm no Kobe stan.

[dubeta]

Apparently missing 55% of your shots over your career is 'skilled'


Steve Nash and Kevin Love are more 'skilled' offensively than Kobe


Nash was a 50% shooter while shooting a ton of 3's as well as being 1/10th as physically gifted as Kobe

Kevin Love basically put up 26 ppg on his own team without being nearly as quick or mobile as Kobe, and has no vertical

[bizil]

In comparison to MJ, Kobe explored the boundaries more in terms of handles and three point shooting. I think Kobe dominated a game in more areas of the floor in terms of scoring than MJ did. That's why I give Kobe the slight edge of MJ in terms of scoring skillset. MJ wanted to dominate midrange, slashing, in transition, and postups. Kobe was epic at those facets too AND used the three ball as a weapon way more.

For those who defend MJ to the death, I think MJ is the better player and the most dominant perimeter scorer of all time. BUT Kobe utilized a wider arsenal in terms of scoring skillset and ball handling. But when u are talking epic scoring skillsets for perimeter players, I think a guy has to rank as an A in at least three of these categories:

Midrange
Postups
Slashing
Three point shooting

And of course these categories can be enhanced by freak athletic ability, great handles, and footwork.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe is a marginally better ball handler than Jordan, and has more range on his 3 ball. He has those advantages. But he's significantly inferior to Mike off the ball offensively or finishing at the rim, so in my mind it's negated. They're the 2x best iso one on one players I've ever seen. If you want to say Kobe is the more skilled scorer than Jordan, whatever. If it is it's marginal at best. Mike however was definitely the superior scorer. Production and playoffs is proof.

[andgar923]

You should read the rest, I'm no Kobe stan.

but kobe isnt more skilled at MJ in anything other than perhaps 3pt shooting. MJ's game is better all around, from footwork, post game, mid range, passing, reading defense, etc etc.

theres a reason why MJ made a killing in the paint, either penetrating or in the post. if he didnt have such great footwork, vision, handles, etc etc he wouldnt have been as effective. While Kobe launches contested shot after long distance shot, cause he simply aint as good.

kobe is great there's no denying that, i don't think anybody has seriously challenged that. But MJ is simply better in every way.

[andgar923]

people comfuse flashy dribbling for good handles.

Kobe didnt get to the rim nearly as much as MJ, nuff said.

[bizil]

Scoring as much is the result of some mix of physical dominance and skill. Different players have varying degrees of both.

Lebron James for instance was a 30+ ppg scorer before he ever even had a post game. He was tremendously skilled still, especially with dribbling and passing, but his combo of size and speed were more responsible for his output than say a guy like Larry Bird.. who had a much smaller, if it was even present at all, physical advantage over his peers.

Kobe/Bird/MJ/Nash/Stockton/Duncan etc most skilled


Lebron would be in the physically dominant category with Wilt/Shaq moreso.

Well said! People gotta realize that RESULTS and IMPACT are the top two things u measure when it comes to great players. For example, Hakeem had a way more diverse scoring skillset than Shaq. But Shaq was the more dominant player who could score just as many points as Hakeem. And frankly, ANYTIME u are great at something u are VERY SKILLED AT IT.

But some guys are very fundamentally sound and do many things well. So that makes them very skilled on a technical or fundamental level. Most people can't physically dominate their opponent, so to be a success they have to use skill, craftiness, etc.

[bizil]

Kobe is a marginally better ball handler than Jordan, and has more range on his 3 ball. He has those advantages. But he's significantly inferior to Mike off the ball offensively or finishing at the rim, so in my mind it's negated. They're the 2x best iso one on one players I've ever seen. If you want to say Kobe is the more skilled scorer than Jordan, whatever. If it is it's marginal at best. Mike however was definitely the superior scorer. Production and playoffs is proof.

Well said and I agree Mike's the better player and scorer. Better scorer and scoring skillset are two different things. Plus MJ was an ultimate technician in terms of when and what to do. Kobe would often play the hero ball hand and put up more bad shots than MJ. That's one reason why MJ's shooting percentages were so damn high.

[tamaraw08]

This is a fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5csF3Mc20


He will demolish the Raptors tonight.

EDIT:

31/11/12 on 46% shooting (24 shots)

stay mad.

Yes, Yes Yes, Kobe shoots 46% from the field, that is quite an accomplishment. :bowdown:
Wade has NEVER SHOT below 46.5% for his entire career. His overall ave is 49.2 %.
Lebron has career 49.6%
Tony Parker's FG% career is 49.6%
Should I even mention MJ's %:confusedshrug:
But then again it's about our subjective observations. Just trash the facts/stats, right?
is the OP just simply picking the word "skilled" for the heck of it just to elevate Kobe, then put guys like Rafer Alston in the class. The guy was like the "game of horse king" forget the accuracy then?:eek:

[tamaraw08]

Apparently missing 55% of your shots over your career is 'skilled'


Steve Nash and Kevin Love are more 'skilled' offensively than Kobe


Nash was a 50% shooter while shooting a ton of 3's as well as being 1/10th as physically gifted as Kobe

Kevin Love basically put up 26 ppg on his own team without being nearly as quick or mobile as Kobe, and has no vertical

Valid point about Love's limitations but the guy has a great shooting form though.
With regards to having slick moves, I think of Adrian Dantley. A really small PF who scored at will, no beef like Barkley, not really a superior flyer etc.

[tpols]

people comfuse flashy dribbling for good handles.

Kobe didnt get to the rim nearly as much as MJ, nuff said.

That's more a product of jordan having a better first step and being quicker moreso than any skillful exhibition of dribbling. Same thing with finishing.. Jordan is a better leaper, faster and better at building momentum when attacking.. these are physical advantages. Kyrie irving can probably do any layup MJ can but hell never finish like him because he isnt half the athlete.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

people comfuse flashy dribbling for good handles.

Kobe didnt get to the rim nearly as much as MJ, nuff said.

Kobe's handles pre 2009-2010 were great though. In the early 2000s before he started shooting a lot of 3's, he was getting to the rim at will. Look at the 2001 playoffs. He was destroying the paint against every team the Lakers faced.

He was one of the few guys who could cross dudes up without carrying the ball.

[jstern]

Kobe is a marginally better ball handler than Jordan, and has more range on his 3 ball. He has those advantages. But he's significantly inferior to Mike off the ball offensively or finishing at the rim, so in my mind it's negated. They're the 2x best iso one on one players I've ever seen. If you want to say Kobe is the more skilled scorer than Jordan, whatever. If it is it's marginal at best. Mike however was definitely the superior scorer. Production and playoffs is proof.

Lets talk about the ball handling. Because I think even Phil has said that Jordan handling the ball will turn it over less.

Jordan style was more of a quick fake one way, go to the other, score as quick as possible kind of player, which I personally find much more effective than somebody trying to set someone up by dribbling and dribbling.

I've seen Kobe make to many mistake, dribbling to find his style more effective than Jordan's.

[3ball]

kobe's problem is that he plays a little bit like a small guard when it comes to taking it to the rack - he can't physically overpower like jordan, wade, or lebron, so his proportion of jumpshots is much higher than those guys, hence the lower efficiency.

it also prevents him from dominating at the highest levels so the same extent as well, certainly jordan and wade.

[andgar923]

That's more a product of jordan having a better first step and being quicker moreso than any skillful exhibition of dribbling. Same thing with finishing.. Jordan is a better leaper, faster and better at building momentum when attacking.. these are physical advantages. Kyrie irving can probably do any layup MJ can but hell never finish like him because he isnt half the athlete.
true to some degree. but mj didnt solely get to the rack on his athleticism. Many if not most of his drives werent a result of his athletic prowess, he simply just used his dribbling, footwork to get to the rim, he used these tools to split doubles, spin around defenders etc.

MJ got the the paint almost at will it seemed like, regardless of defensive schemes and most of it was based on his dribbling abilities.

[plowking]

Scoring as much is the result of some mix of physical dominance and skill. Different players have varying degrees of both.

Lebron James for instance was a 30+ ppg scorer before he ever even had a post game. He was tremendously skilled still, especially with dribbling and passing, but his combo of size and speed were more responsible for his output than say a guy like Larry Bird.. who had a much smaller, if it was even present at all, physical advantage over his peers.

Kobe/Bird/MJ/Nash/Stockton/Duncan etc most skilled


Lebron would be in the physically dominant category with Wilt/Shaq moreso.

Completely disagree. There are so many great athletes in the NBA, both now and in history.

Coordination is a skill. You can practice it, hence a skill.

The thing that gets me, for example is, when people say, so and so player will struggle in the playoffs, because that is where the better and more skilled scorers can still put up points against the elite defenses. A saying that has been constantly spoke about James Harden for example, which people use as evidence.

Well take a look at Wade, Kobe and Bron over the years. If anyone early on showed the most promise against the best defenses, it was Wade, who is undoubtedly the least multi-faceted and skilled out of the lot. Yet, here you have him dominating the best defenses like Detroit and Boston and all the others, while Kobe and Bron clearly struggled, and I mean significantly.

So what use is being "more skilled" when it clearly doesn't translate to anything tangible? Or are people simply arbitrarily picking specific parts of a game and using them as the prime piece of evidence.

Just as an example, why isn't a player like James Harden considered as skilled as Kobe? He is a better free throw shooter, 3 point shooter, better passer and playmaker, better slasher, etc. The only thing he lacks is a midrange game. James Harden by all means is one of the most multi-faceted and all round players to ever play.
Same goes with Bron. Yet you constantly hear, "he would be nothing without athleticism"... Clearly he would, since athletes like Gerald Green aren't anywhere near as good. I wonder why?...

[andgar923]

Lets talk about the ball handling. Because I think even Phil has said that Jordan handling the ball will turn it over less.

Jordan style was more of a quick fake one way, go to the other, score as quick as possible kind of player, which I personally find much more effective than somebody trying to set someone up by dribbling and dribbling.

I've seen Kobe make to many mistake, dribbling to find his style more effective than Jordan's.
yup

MJ didnt waste time,

you can see how MJ is more effective/efficient in his late years as he got clean looks on jumpers and still got to the rim. kobe takes more contested jumpers because hes not as effective/efficient. he does tend to dribble too much at times allowing the defense to adapt and contest.

[3ball]

anytime you compare the two doing the same moves, kobe's always looks a little weaker.

they do a lot of the same moves, but jordan's are done WITH power - kobe's always look like it wouldn't dominate the defense quite as well, and sure enough, the stats back that up... just a level below in pretty much every category.

[ImKobe]

anytime you compare the two doing the same moves, kobe's always looks a little weaker.

they do a lot of the same moves, but jordan's are done WITH power - kobe's always look like it wouldn't dominate the defense quite as well, and sure enough, the stats back that up... just a level below in pretty much every category.
:biggums:

depends on which moves you're talking about

prime Kobe had a lot of flash in his moves and his fadeaway was way more fluid, but Jordan got his shot off easier than Kobe did thanks to his athletic ability and his superior quickness.

[dubeta]

anytime you compare the two doing the same moves, kobe's always looks a little weaker.

they do a lot of the same moves, but jordan's are done WITH power - kobe's always look like it wouldn't dominate the defense quite as well, and sure enough, the stats back that up... just a level below in pretty much every category.

Jordan had all the skills but too bad Jordan-Ball resulted in a 1-9 start before Pippen took full control of the Bulls offense and led them to rings.

[tpols]

Completely disagree. There are so many great athletes in the NBA, both now and in history.

Coordination is a skill. You can practice it, hence a skill.

So what use is being "more skilled" when it clearly doesn't translate to anything tangible? Or are people simply arbitrarily picking specific parts of a game and using them as the prime piece of evidence.
..

If you're gonna say that coordination.. like running and jumping and manuevering coordination is a skill, than you think every GOAT in the history of basketball was the most skilled.. Because you count great athletes developing their bodies as a skill. When the convo is more about pure basketball skills, dribbling passing shooting etc.

Saying Lebron is one of the most skilled players ever because he developed the coordination to run fast and use efficient body movement at his size... and that is a skill to you. There is no difference between athleticism and skill then. Because you made someone becoming a great athlete a skill in your eyes. I just dont see it like that I guess.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan style was more of a quick fake one way, go to the other, score as quick as possible kind of player
Jordan was more of a quick strike offensive player, yes, he didn't dick around. He also sensed double teams quicker.

Don't get me wrong though, MJ had elite handles. He could get anywhere he wanted on the floor, at anytime. He wasn't limited by any means.

Jordan didn't need to utilize as many change of pace dribbles or fakes with the ball as Kobe because quite simply he was much quicker off the bounce, or first step. Even in the post with his broader shoulders, foot fakes, and speed he got more separation.

So ... he had to take less difficulty level shots compared to Kobe.

Kobe's dribbling style is more influenced by the Iverson / And-1 generation. But Jordan too had more than his fair share of flashiness.

I remember him dancing between his legs v.s. Bird. Putting Nick Anderson on the ground in the '95 playoffs with an in/out. His baseline fake out of both Starks, and Oakley before dunking on Ewing. I mean his final shot as a Bulls he broke the shit out of Russell. Or this double move he put on him in 1997:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCnOLJfqGcw

[3ball]

when jordan and kobe do the same move and take the same shot, it is a harder shot for kobe than it is for jordan, so people think kobe takes harder shots..

but really, it's the exact same shot - it's just harder for kobe to convert it.

[plowking]

If you're gonna say that coordination.. like running and jumping and manuevering coordination is a skill, than you think every GOAT in the history of basketball was the most skilled.. Because you count great athletes developing their bodies as a skill. When the convo is more about pure basketball skills, dribbling passing shooting etc.

Saying Lebron is one of the most skilled players ever because he developed the coordination to run fast and use efficient body movement at his size... and that is a skill to you. There is no difference between athleticism and skill then. Because you made someone becoming a great athlete a skill in your eyes. I just dont see it like that I guess.

How is co-ordination not a skill?

Balance is a skill. Hand-eye coordination is a skill.

I never said anything to do with athleticism. I do think Lebron is one of the most skilled ever, more so than Kobe, because he is more multi faceted than Kobe.

[tpols]

How is co-ordination not a skill?

Balance is a skill. Hand-eye coordination is a skill.

I never said anything to do with athleticism. I do think Lebron is one of the most skilled ever, more so than Kobe, because he is more multi faceted than Kobe.

Because hand eye coordination isnt something that comes as naturally to all people. Some people have a greater propensity for developing it than others. Some people have better proportioned bodies that allow for them to develop better balance and more force exertion. They didnt choose these bodies.. Lebron would be a freak of nature no matter what he did.

Learning how to use footwork and fakes to creatively outwit your opponent.. having a consistent and effective shooting form.. being able to complete a wide variety of sick passes.. how advanced your dribbling is.. those are all tangible skills that can be learned from scratch in basketball and are not just blanket attributes that apply to all athletics(like hand eye coordination).

[plowking]

Because hand eye coordination isnt something that comes as naturally to all people. Some people have a greater propensity for developing it than others. Some people have better proportioned bodies that allow for them to develop better balance and more force exertion. They didnt choose these bodies.. Lebron would be a freak of nature no matter what he did.

Learning how to use footwork and fakes to creatively outwit your opponent.. having a consistent and effective shooting form.. being able to complete a wide variety of sick passes.. how advanced your dribbling is.. those are all tangible skills that can be learned from scratch in basketball and are not just blanket attributes that apply to all athletics(like hand eye coordination).

Footwork is coordination...

Hand eye coordination isn't something that comes naturally to people? Some have a higher propensity for it? Well of course. Same goes with effective and consistent shooting form, and a whole bunch of other things you list as "tangible skills".

[Dragonyeuw]

Lets talk about the ball handling. Because I think even Phil has said that Jordan handling the ball will turn it over less.

Jordan style was more of a quick fake one way, go to the other, score as quick as possible kind of player, which I personally find much more effective than somebody trying to set someone up by dribbling and dribbling.

I've seen Kobe make to many mistake, dribbling to find his style more effective than Jordan's.

When people compare the two's ballhandling, and say Kobe's is better, well his style is influenced by the generation he came up in, the and-1 streetball style. MJ did his share of crossovers, behind the backs, between the legs and things of that nature, but on average he didn't need to resort to those things just because of what you and others describe here: the quickstrike nature of his offensive style. Meaning less wasted movement setting up a good shot, resulting in cleaner looks converted at a higher rate and volume.

[sportjames23]

Jordan had all the skills but too bad Jordan-Ball resulted in a 1-9 start before Pippen took full control of the Bulls offense and led them to rings.


Too bad you're a stupid mutha****a to realize that without MJ, the Bulls didn't win jack nor shit. Yeah, bring up 1994, when they got Toni Kukoc and before Horace Grant left, and the Bulls couldn't passed the Knicks in the second round. And then remember how after Grant left, Scottie was leading the Bulls into MISSING the playoffs until MJ came back for the final 17 games and helped them make the post-season. And then refresh your memory on how a recharged and pissed off MJ lead the Bulls to the greatest season in NBA history.

And then cry over how your boo Lebron destroyed any kind of legacy he may have had by leaving Miami for what he thought was greener pastures, only to realize it's just Cleveland. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

When people compare the two's ballhandling, and say Kobe's is better, well his style is influenced by the generation he came up in, the and-1 streetball style. MJ did his share of crossovers, behind the backs, between the legs and things of that nature, but on average he didn't need to resort to those things just because of what you and others describe here: the quickstrike nature of his offensive style. Meaning less wasted movement setting up a good shot, resulting in cleaner looks converted at a higher rate and volume.


Bingo.

MJ didn't waste too much time (and energy) as guys do now with all that extra dribbling, which, as someone mentioned earlier, gives your opponent time to set up his defense to guard you. Why give your opponent the opportunity to D you up when you can catch him off guard, making it easier for you to score?

[GimmeThat]

unorthodox

[ImKobe]

lol at the clown who negged me for saying Kobe's fadeaway was more fluid, instead of quoting my post and proving me otherwise.

who da best in da league? You tell me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEnNB4aSRs

we just Kobe fadeawaaay

81 points you should try it

[andgar923]

People don't seem to remember how great MJ was at creating his shot and getting space, which is a result of having great handles. Not all of it was due to his athleticism, and here's a small example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jjd6r-xZAw&channel=shine2345
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDESGrXI8jE&channel=UCG3iCKcYVJEEW0Q78iIWtEQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9qDhoRv4WA&channel=shine2345

Most skilled offensive player Kobe?

He's great, but still not up to MJ's level.... but the closest.

[ImKobe]

People don't seem to remember how great MJ was at creating his shot and getting space, which is a result of having great handles. Not all of it was due to his athleticism, and here's a small example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jjd6r-xZAw&channel=shine2345
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDESGrXI8jE&channel=UCG3iCKcYVJEEW0Q78iIWtEQ

Most skilled offensive player Kobe?

He's great, but still not up to MJ's level.... but the closest.

Give Kobe the hands MJ had...please.

[andgar923]

Give Kobe the hands MJ had...please.

What does that have to do with 'skills' tho?

Sure MJ's hands help him in some situations, there's no denying that. But MJ still needed to have skills to even get shots off, to get to the rim around traffic and against double/triple teams. His athleticism wasn't always his saving grace.

It's been stated repeatedly that MJ was extremely fundamental and highly skilled above all else. That's what separated him from other great athletes.

Kobe's low fg% and forced shots aren't because he's an inferior athlete, but because he lacked the court IQ and some of the skills that MJ had more than anything. When Kobe was young he was still a great athlete and the rules plus playing with Shaq (later on with other good big men) allowed him to take advantage of situations that MJ never even had. But he still forced shots, he still didn't get the same space/separation that MJ did.

Kobe fans brag about the amount of tough shots he took, well... that's because he wasn't as good at getting space from his defender, or as smart.

[ImKobe]

What does that have to do with 'skills' tho?

Sure MJ's hands help him in some situations, there's no denying that. But MJ still needed to have skills to even get shots off, to get to the rim around traffic and against double/triple teams. His athleticism wasn't always his saving grace.

It's been stated repeatedly that MJ was extremely fundamental and highly skilled above all else. That's what separated him from other great athletes.

Kobe's low fg% and forced shots aren't because he's an inferior athlete, but because he lacked the court IQ and some of the skills that MJ had more than anything. When Kobe was young he was still a great athlete and the rules plus playing with Shaq (later on with other good big men) allowed him to take advantage of situations that MJ never even had. But he still forced shots, he still didn't get the same space/separation that MJ did.

Kobe fans brag about the amount of tough shots he took, well... that's because he wasn't as good at getting space from his defender, or as smart.

MJ is basically Kobe + otherworldly athleticism and GOAT hands...

Sure, MJ did some small things that gave him more advantage against the defenders, but a lot of it had to do with what he was able to do with his body. Kobe was a never a threat inside like MJ was, Kobe couldn't do all the things with the ball that MJ could (due to MJ's physical attributes).

It is what it is. It doesn't take anything away from Jordan, it's just an observation for why Mike was able to do so many great things with the ball. He had amazing hands, hence why he wasn't such a turnover machine with some of he moves he consistently was able to pull off that others wouldn't even dare attempting.

[andgar923]

MJ is basically Kobe + otherworldly athleticism and GOAT hands...

Sure, MJ did some small things that gave him more advantage against the defenders, but a lot of it had to do with what he was able to do with his body. Kobe was a never a threat inside like MJ was, Kobe couldn't do all the things with the ball that MJ could (due to MJ's physical attributes).

It is what it is. It doesn't take anything away from Jordan, it's just an observation for why Mike was able to do so many great things with the ball. He had amazing hands, hence why he wasn't such a turnover machine with some of he moves he consistently was able to pull off that others wouldn't even dare attempting.

Im not trying to put down Kobe, as I mentioned he's the closest to MJ as far as skill set I've said that repeatedly and that's a HUGE compliment.

MJ's physical attributes do help him in some situations.

But it doesn't always come to that. Most of the clips in the links I posted are a result of his skills. Yes there are some instances in which it helps separate him from Kobe, but Kobe still lacks the 'consistency' to put it all together. Often times I've seen Kobe make one great move, read the defense beautifully and then later on the game, do the complete opposite and force a shot or not use his footwork properly and instead throw a brick from the 3pt line. :banghead:

Damn it Kobe!

Consistency

At times it seems Kobe doesn't have the tools. Like, why didn't he give a jab step then take a few dribbles inside the 3pt line to get a better shot? Why did he settle with plenty of time and force a shot? Why did he dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble and hoist up a bad contested shot?

His low fg% and lack of interior shots are a direct result (when compared to MJ) that he doesn't have the consistency and tools to get himself a better shot.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ is basically Kobe + otherworldly athleticism and GOAT hands...

Sure, MJ did some small things that gave him more advantage against the defenders, but a lot of it had to do with what he was able to do with his body. Kobe was a never a threat inside like MJ was, Kobe couldn't do all the things with the ball that MJ could (due to MJ's physical attributes).

It is what it is. It doesn't take anything away from Jordan, it's just an observation for why Mike was able to do so many great things with the ball. He had amazing hands, hence why he wasn't such a turnover machine with some of he moves he consistently was able to pull off that others wouldn't even dare attempting.

This is nonsense. I can literally post videos ALL DAY showing things on offense that Jordan did regularly but Kobe has basically NEVER done, and which have NOTHING to do with MJ's athleticism or hands and everything to do with his basketball IQ, speed of recognizing the defense/court awareness, and savvy. Like this, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjwpd5GYY2A#t=7m07s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmo24VMVQE#t=7m45s

Kobe has NEVER played this kind of elegant, masterful basketball, and it has nothing to do with Jordan's athleticism. In that second play, for instance, MJ uses the defender's momentum and the threat of the screen by Williams to flash free to the FT line, makes a quick catch and immediately dribbles left (the direction OPPOSITE the where recovering Majerle's momentum is taking him), Majerle still makes a good contest but in mid-air Jordan decides to execute a give-and-go with Williams, shielding the ball from Chambers as he goes up. Similar types of actions and quick thinking are seen in this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmo24VMVQE#t=3m07s

Jordan is just on a completely different level from Kobe in terms of court awareness, savvy, and basketball IQ. It's glaringly obvious if you know the game and watch each of them.

[kNIOKAS]

What happened to saying that Kobe is the most offensive player in the NBA history? :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

This is nonsense. I can literally post videos ALL DAY showing things on offense that Jordan did regularly but Kobe has basically NEVER done, and which have NOTHING to do with MJ's athleticism or hands and everything to do with his basketball IQ, speed of recognizing the defense/court awareness, and savvy. Like this, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjwpd5GYY2A#t=7m07s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmo24VMVQE#t=7m45s

Kobe has NEVER played this kind of elegant, masterful basketball, and it has nothing to do with Jordan's athleticism. In that second play, for instance, MJ uses the defender's momentum and the threat of the screen by Williams to flash free to the FT line, makes a quick catch and immediately dribbles left (the direction OPPOSITE the where recovering Majerle's momentum is taking him), Majerle still makes a good contest but in mid-air Jordan decides to execute a give-and-go with Williams, shielding the ball from Chambers as he goes up. Similar types of actions and quick thinking are seen in this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmo24VMVQE#t=3m07s

Jordan is just on a completely different level from Kobe in terms of court awareness, savvy, and basketball IQ. It's glaringly obvious if you know the game and watch each of them.

If MJ was better than Kobe at everything, like you seem to think. The difference between their production would be much bigger.


It comes down to MJ's physical attributes and some of it might be how he approached the game. Phil said it himself that Jordan was more gifted than Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

If MJ was better than Kobe at everything, like you seem to think. The difference between their production would be much bigger.


It comes down to MJ's physical attributes and some of it might be how he approached the game. Phil said it himself that Jordan was more gifted than Kobe.

But the difference in their production IS very large - you seem ignorant of this. Jordan was at 30-31+ PER annually, while Kobe has only had one season above 26.2 PER. Same can be said for every advanced metric (ORTG, Win Shares, EFF, +/- etc.).

[ImKobe]

But the difference in their production IS very large - you seem ignorant of this. Jordan was at 30-31+ PER annually, while Kobe has only had one season above 26.2 PER. Same can be said for every advanced metric (ORTG, Win Shares, EFF, +/- etc.).

Kobe as a starter - 27/6/5 on 21 FGA

MJ career - 30/6/5 on 23 FGA

difference in FG% - only less than 5%, and you have to take account the 2.5 more threes per game that Kobe's attempted.

His PER is that high due to the high number of steals he got during his prime

I'm talking offensively (PER counts steals. blocks), Kobe and him are close.

Kobe is more skilled, but skilled does not mean being more efficient at something - he just has a better offensive arsenal, but MJ did not need a huge offensive arsenal. Remember the thread about him having the most dunks all-time per season? (for wings), dude's ridiculously high efficiency came from his athletic ability, which helped him get so many high-percentage shots at the rim, because he got by his defenders with ease and big men couldn't stop him from finishing at the rim :confusedshrug:, plus, with the amount of steals he was able to get surely helped boost his scoring numbers due to more transition opportunities.

I'm not arguing that Kobe is the better player here, I'm not talking about what MJ brought on defense. This is simply about offensive skillset.

Kobe's the better long ranger shooter and has more post moves and is more fluid in the post, but that's with disregarding the athletic aspect, which MJ clearly has a huge advantage in. You don't have to agree with me and I'm not going to attack your personal opinion, it's cool if you feel that way because he's the GOAT - but he was not perfect.

Being GOAT does not mean being better than everyone at everything, MJ stans are insecure if anyone dare claim some other player is better at something than he was..I don't get this part really. He had his own "flaws". He was not perfect.

Like, Lebron might be a more efficient scorer than Kobe per stats, but you're not going to argue that he's a better post player or that he has a bigger offensive arsenal than him.

[ImKobe]

Like, you can even see it on MJ himself.

Take the 2nd 3-peat MJ. He averaged 29/6/5 on 48% shooting in the 3 years. He didn't get as many dunks or easy shots at the rim, took more jumpers (including 3s) like Kobe, and the efficiency is pretty close to what a 08-10 Kobe was.

2nd 3-peat MJ averaged 31/6/4 for the 3 Playoff runs on 46% shooting

the 3 straight Finals Kobe went to, he averaged 30/6/6 on 46% shooting (higher FG, 3PT, FT% averages if you didn't round them up)

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe as a starter - 27/6/5 on 21 FGA

MJ career - 30/6/5 on 23 FGA

difference in FG% - only less than 5%, and you have to take account the 2.5 more threes per game that Kobe's attempted.

His PER is that high due to the high number of steals he got during his prime

I'm talking offensively (PER counts steals. blocks), Kobe and him are close.

Kobe is more skilled, but skilled does not mean being more efficient at something - he just has a better offensive arsenal, but MJ did not need a huge offensive arsenal. Remember the thread about him having the most dunks all-time per season? (for wings), dude's ridiculously high efficiency came from his athletic ability, which helped him get so many high-percentage shots at the rim, because he got by his defenders with ease and big men couldn't stop him from finishing at the rim :confusedshrug:, plus, with the amount of steals he was able to get surely helped boost his scoring numbers due to more transition opportunities.

I'm not arguing that Kobe is the better player here, I'm not talking about what MJ brought on defense. This is simply about offensive skillset.

Kobe's the better long ranger shooter and has more post moves and is more fluid in the post, but that's with disregarding the athletic aspect, which MJ clearly has a huge advantage in. You don't have to agree with me and I'm not going to attack your personal opinion, it's cool if you feel that way because he's the GOAT - but he was not perfect.

Being GOAT does not mean being better than everyone at everything, MJ stans are insecure if anyone dare claim some other player is better at something than he was..I don't get this part really. He had his own "flaws". He was not perfect.

Like, Lebron might be a more efficient scorer than Kobe per stats, but you're not going to argue that he's a better post player or that he has a bigger offensive arsenal than him.

Err, no. The large difference in EVERY advanced metric between Kobe and Jordan is not because of 1-1.5 extra steal per game for Jordan. Nice try, though.

[Nevaeh]

If MJ was better than Kobe at everything, like you seem to think. The difference between their production would be much bigger.


It comes down to MJ's physical attributes and some of it might be how he approached the game. Phil said it himself that Jordan was more gifted than Kobe.


It IS big though.

Jordan=10 scoring titles in 15 years (6 of which were during all of his championship runs)

Kobe= 2 scoring titles in 19 years.

Jordan=5 MVP awards in 15 years

Kobe=1 mvp award in 19 years

Jordan=6 FMVP awards in 15years

Kobe= 2 FMVP awards in 19 years


And on and on it goes....

[Dragonyeuw]

Kobe as a starter - 27/6/5 on 21 FGA

MJ career - 30/6/5 on 23 FGA

difference in FG% - only less than 5%, and you have to take account the 2.5 more threes per game that Kobe's attempted.



What's the numbers look like if you remove MJ's Wizard seasons? Because like Kobe's bench years, the Wizard years don't represent MJ's prime numbers, which is what you're using to compare to MJ's numbers without giving him the same courtesy of removing his 'off-prime' stats.

As for the difference in field goal percentage being chucked up to Kobe taking a significantly larger number of 3's, while that's true to a degree that's not an excuse. Kobe doesn't get let off the hook for a lower shooting percentage because he chooses to take a higher number of lower percentage shots.

The reality is, out of all the premier (25+) perimeter scorers of the past decade, only Melo shoots a worse percentage than Kobe( and it's slight). Durant, prime Wade, and Lebron all provide high volume scoring on better percentages than Kobe, with the latter two being worse shooters by all accounts.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Valid point about Love's limitations but the guy has a great shooting form though.
With regards to having slick moves, I think of Adrian Dantley. A really small PF who scored at will, no beef like Barkley, not really a superior flyer etc.

Good call on Dantley, dude was a 6'5 SF putting up prime-Shaq's scoring numbers.
Terrific in the post, great finisher, great at moving off the ball and getting to his sweet spots, beast at drawing fouls, amazing footwork and soft touch around the rim, knocked down jumpers when given the space, so on; he was many times a black-hole but actually a decent passer also... too bad, that for most of his career, he didn't give a damn about playing defense or defensive rebounding, while being a poor teammate on and off the court.

AD wasn't small though, short for his position and what he was doing yea but he was very buff and really strong (go check out his physique and game). One of the best ever at using his body too.
He was also pretty mobile and coordinated but yea not even close to being a high-flyer either, so on...

[dubeta]

What makes Kobe more skilled than 6'7 1/2 slower than a turtle, no vertical Kevin Love?

Kevin Love averaging 26/12 with his physique is more impressive than what Kobe has done skill wise

[ImKobe]

What makes Kobe more skilled than 6'7 1/2 slower than a turtle, no vertical Kevin Love?

Kevin Love averaging 26/12 with his physique is more impressive than what Kobe has done skill wise

So, you're saying that Kevin Love is a more skilled player than Kobe Bryant?

:facepalm

[dubeta]

So, you're saying that Kevin Love is a more skilled player than Kobe Bryant?

:facepalm

Yes, posts a higher PER with 1/10th the physical gifts of Kobe

[ImKobe]

Yes, posts a higher PER with 1/10th the physical gifts of Kobe

:hammerhead:

his PER really had an impact on his team making the Playoffs, right?

Give prime Kobe that team and they win at least 50 games.

103 ORTG and 128 DRTG in crunch time :kobe:

lose 22 out of 37 games in crunch time :kobe:

88% of his threes were assisted :kobe:

73% of his jump shots were assisted :kobe:

A more skilled player than Kobe Bryant can't even create his own shots :kobe:

Even right now, when Kobe's been awful in crunch time, he has a better ORTG & DRTG :kobe:, and he's 36 years old coming off a torn achilles and a broken knee.

clown.

[riseagainst]

Yes, posts a higher PER with 1/10th the physical gifts of Kobe

1/10th.
:roll:

[bizil]

It IS big though.

Jordan=10 scoring titles in 15 years (6 of which were during all of his championship runs)

Kobe= 2 scoring titles in 19 years.

Jordan=5 MVP awards in 15 years

Kobe=1 mvp award in 19 years

Jordan=6 FMVP awards in 15years

Kobe= 2 FMVP awards in 19 years


And on and on it goes....

No doubt MJ is the better player and flat out the GOAT period. His solo accomplishments dwarf Kobe's no doubt about it. But i actually think in terms of flat out talent it's close. MJ also TOTALLY revolutionized the SG spot as well. He combined the all around dominance at SG of West, the SF size and freak athletic ability of Dr. J, and the scoring skillset of George Gervin. David Thompson was the first freak athletic SG, but MJ took that shit to the ultimate levels.

Kobe didn't really redefine the SG position, but he added the new age And 1 mentality to the MJ template. The thing is the And 1 template in my opinion wasn't condusive to eclipsing guys who were technicians AND SHOWMEN in one like MJ, Magic, Bird, and Isiah. They did fancy shit FOR A REASON and to fool the defense. And 1 guys did it to get fan reaction solely. Which is fine in their world.

Kobe was an ultimate technician and showman in one like the other guys I named. But Kobe played to his showman side more and had lower shooting percentages than he should have. Nuances such as that was the difference between MJ and Kobe. That and the physical gifts MJ had, even though Mamba was a top shelf freak athlete as well.

[Dengness9]

Michael Jordan

[dubeta]

It IS big though.

Jordan=10 scoring titles in 15 years (6 of which were during all of his championship runs)

Kobe= 2 scoring titles in 19 years.

Jordan=5 MVP awards in 15 years

Kobe=1 mvp award in 19 years

Jordan=6 FMVP awards in 15years

Kobe= 2 FMVP awards in 19 years


And on and on it goes....

With discrepancies like these, how did Kobe even get in the conversation with Jordan in the first place??



Damn Shaq doesn't get nearly enough appreciation from fans of Kobe

[Dragonyeuw]

But Kobe played to his showman side more and had lower shooting percentages than he should have.

Yep, there's no reason at all why Kobe couldn't be a career 48% shooter. Too many ego-driven bad shots coupled with occasional over-reliance on the 3-ball. With his midrange and post scoring skill-set his field goal percentage should be much higher.

[bizil]

Yep, there's no reason at all why Kobe couldn't be a career 48% shooter. Too many ego-driven bad shots coupled with occasional over-reliance on the 3-ball. With his midrange and post scoring skill-set his field goal percentage should be much higher.

Right on the money! Kobe was too talented to have to take so many bad shots. It was simply hero ball and showing out. Sometimes hero ball is necessary but Kobe would really stretch the limits! lol MJ was a very capable three ball shooter and ACTUALLY was good enough at it to attempt more than he did. But MJ was epic at the midrange, slashing, and postups. Plus he was an 84% shooter from the free throw line. So MJ smartly played to those strenghts.

The And 1 generation (which age wise I'm a part of) did shit for the sake of a great pop from the crowd. Kobe and AI as great as they were didn't need to do that as much as they did. They could have had the healthy balance of showmanship to go with their epic skillsets. Other guys less talented had to try it because they were streaky and didn't have as many skills putting the ball in the hoop.

[Nevaeh]

No doubt MJ is the better player and flat out the GOAT period. His solo accomplishments dwarf Kobe's no doubt about it. But i actually think in terms of flat out talent it's close. MJ also TOTALLY revolutionized the SG spot as well. He combined the all around dominance at SG of West, the SF size and freak athletic ability of Dr. J, and the scoring skillset of George Gervin. David Thompson was the first freak athletic SG, but MJ took that shit to the ultimate levels.

Kobe didn't really redefine the SG position, but he added the new age And 1 mentality to the MJ template. The thing is the And 1 template in my opinion wasn't condusive to eclipsing guys who were technicians AND SHOWMEN in one like MJ, Magic, Bird, and Isiah. They did fancy shit FOR A REASON and to fool the defense. And 1 guys did it to get fan reaction solely. Which is fine in their world.

Kobe was an ultimate technician and showman in one like the other guys I named. But Kobe played to his showman side more and had lower shooting percentages than he should have. Nuances such as that was the difference between MJ and Kobe. That and the physical gifts MJ had, even though Mamba was a top shelf freak athlete as well.


Great post, and I wanted to acknowledge it, bizil. I have a tendency to post within the context of what the thread title says, along with whenever I quote someone.

When anyone calls a player the best or most "such and such" in history, they're expect to prove it. "Most skilled" indicates beyond peer, the best, etc. Kobe has never proven himself on that level consistantly enough to warrant that title based on the headline of the Thread.

Kobe has also proven to be turnover prone, which definitely negates the title of the thread, when you're talking about a player who prides himself on offense for most of his overall game.

[magmo68]

Thread title period

[ArbitraryWater]

Career TS%:

Kobe: 56%
Bird: 56%
Lebron: 58%
Jordan: 57%
Wade: 57%
T-Mac: 52%
West: 55%
Dr. J: 56%
Durant: 60%
Melo: 55%

You're mentioning West's TS% when he never had a 3-point shot to work with :lol

[j3lademaster]

What makes Kobe more skilled than 6'7 1/2 slower than a turtle, no vertical Kevin Love?

Kevin Love averaging 26/12 with his physique is more impressive than what Kobe has done skill wisehttp://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kevin-Love-1062/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Blake-Griffin-1268/
The same Love with the same max vert as Blake Griffin? Just because a guy doesn't try to jump out of the gym for every rebound doesn't mean he doesn't have a nice vert. Some guys aren't as good at applying it to in-game due to a combination of being scared of getting hurt or not having the instincts/ skills of when to. If you watch Blake he doesn't rebound the way prime Marion did on a regular basis(you do see him sky for one once in a while). The only time we really see that great leaping ability is when he's got his eyes wide for a dunk.

And yes a 35 inch vert is great leaping ability.

[dubeta]

Kobe is the most skilled offensive player in NBA history and by skilled I mean God awful

[pegasus]

Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, but just from the offensive skills standpoint, I can see a case being made for Kobe, and Kobe only. His arsenal of moves even at his current age is amazing.

[pudman13]

Pete Maravich was the most skilled offensive player in NBA history. Not the best, or the most effective, or the most efficient, or the one who made the best decisions (Kobe isn't the best in that department either), but he was the most skilled. Basically everyone who ever played with him said so.

[ImKobe]

Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, but just from the offensive skills standpoint, I can see a case being made for Kobe, and Kobe only. His arsenal of moves even at his current age is amazing.

That's all I'm saying.

[ImKobe]

Pete Maravich was the most skilled offensive player in NBA history. Not the best, or the most effective, or the most efficient, or the one who made the best decisions (Kobe isn't the best in that department either), but he was the most skilled. Basically everyone who ever played with him said so.

Well, they didn't play with Kobe :rockon:

[eliteballer]

0 doubt.

Only Jordan is in the same league, just like KD said.

[Axe]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmdXVE7u6giFMNIVNppPgUm_t2T_hAG eotpw&usqp=CAU

[Manny98]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Wilt_Chamberlain_100-point.jpg

Wilt was a physical marvel but he's not what I would consider as skilled

[Ryoka Narusawa]

Chris Paul has to be up in the convo with Kobe and Jordan

[Honor Boost]

Kawhi Leonard's only slight weakness is passing otherwise he is godly at all else.

[Axe]

Kawhi Leonard's only slight weakness is passing otherwise he is godly at all else.
He needed an alpha tho.

[Honor Boost]

He needed an alpha tho.

Who was his alpha in 2019 and 2014?

[Axe]

Who was his alpha in 2019 and 2014?
Wasn't it lowry and duncan, respectively?

[8Ball]

This is a fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5csF3Mc20


He will demolish the Raptors tonight.

EDIT:

31/11/12 on 46% shooting (24 shots)

stay mad.

Holy shit ImKobe was a braindead since 2014?

[Manny98]

He's the most skilled player 6'5 and above I agree

Overall I would argue that CP3 & Kyrie are more skilled than him

[Chick Stern]

He's the most skilled player 6'5 and above I agree

Overall I would argue that CP3 & Kyrie are more skilled than him

CP3 only goes right

[FKAri]

Excluding PGs, yes.

[ImKobe]

Holy shit ImKobe was a braindead since 2014?

I predicted a post-achilles & knee injury Kobe would smash the cRaptors and he delivered by being the oldest player to record a 30-point triple-double in NBA history at the time. Shame he played with a bunch of D-Leaguers that year as he averaged 25/5/5 in his first 27 games before the injuries started piling up. He could have still been a productive 25 ppg scorer on a title contender and not had as many injuries had he taken the Lebron route & collided with other superstars to extend his career.

[ShawkFactory]

Kawhi Leonard's only slight weakness is passing otherwise he is godly at all else.

Not really. His handle is relatively average and he doesn't have crazy smooth footwork or anything.

He's just big, incredibly strong and athletic, and a great shot maker. He doesn't really need much else to be pretty much impossible to stop though so it's not a big deal.

[And1AllDay]

Chris Paul has to be up in the convo with Kobe and Jordan


bean, cp3, bran

top 3 skills

[LAL]

bean, cp3, bran

top 3 skills

lol i know you're laughing behind your screen right now

[And1AllDay]

lol i know you're laughing behind your screen right now

elite scoring, passing, rebounding, iq, clutch, leadership, range, post play, efficiency

just not the best at free throws

[Hey Yo]

:cheers:

it's pretty clear-cut to me... and maybe Magic could be in there at the guard or forward position too.

LOL at Magic being most skilled considering he couldn't even shoot.

[And1AllDay]

LOL at Magic being most skilled considering he couldn't even shoot.

or defend

[bizil]

When it comes to skill, u GOTTA choose the guys that check the most boxes on offense. So for me, it's scoring skillset, handles, footwork, and passing ability as a package. I dont think ANYBODY checks all those boxes as a package like Mamba. KD and Kyrie are right there. BUT footwork wise, I would give Kobe the edge. Inside the three point like scoring wise, I would give it to Kobe. Hell passing wise, Kobe was the best passer of the three in my opinion. KD and Kyrie are 50-40-90 marksmen though. So they got the edge on Kobe in terms of marksmanship.

Just think Kobe's superior athletic ability and tough shot making push it his way over KD and Kyrie. ON TOP of his insane skill level, he had some elements you just can't teach. Like that athletic ability and uncanny ability to hit tough shots. BUT all three had the total package scoring skillsets for sure. But my all offensive skill team by position would be:

PG- Kyrie
SG- Mamba
SF- KD
PF- Bird (pickin a bit outta position, but I had to have Bird on here. If not Bird, u got KG, AD, Barkley, C Webb, young LJ to choose from. Can't have Dirk, passing holds him back.)
C- Joker

[ScottieQuitting]

PG - Kyrie
SG - MJ / Kobe
SF - KD
PF - Bird
C - AD

[tpols]

When it comes to skill, u GOTTA choose the guys that check the most boxes on offense. So for me, it's scoring skillset, handles, footwork, and passing ability as a package. I dont think ANYBODY checks all those boxes as a package like Mamba. KD and Kyrie are right there. BUT footwork wise, I would give Kobe the edge. Inside the three point like scoring wise, I would give it to Kobe. Hell passing wise, Kobe was the best passer of the three in my opinion. KD and Kyrie are 50-40-90 marksmen though. So they got the edge on Kobe in terms of marksmanship.

Just think Kobe's superior athletic ability and tough shot making push it his way over KD and Kyrie. ON TOP of his insane skill level, he had some elements you just can't teach. Like that athletic ability and uncanny ability to hit tough shots. BUT all three had the total package scoring skillsets for sure. But my all offensive skill team by position would be:

PG- Kyrie
SG- Mamba
SF- KD
PF- Bird (pickin a bit outta position, but I had to have Bird on here. If not Bird, u got KG, AD, Barkley, C Webb, young LJ to choose from. Can't have Dirk, passing holds him back.)
C- Joker

Kobe is also probably the most creative in game dunker ever. Along with his absurd posters over Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, David Robinson, KG, and Emeka Okafor (as an old man) he had the wildest collection of up and under, 360, alley oop, windmill, and through the leg jams ever seen. It depresses me watching today's game seeing ZERO creative dunking. Spacing has ruined dunking because it has eliminated the need to innovate mid air or get fancy. Everything is a simple jam now.

[ShawkFactory]

PG - Kyrie
SG - MJ / Kobe
SF - KD
PF - Bird
C - AD

Why is AD more skilled than Olajuwon

[ScottieQuitting]

Why is AD more skilled than Olajuwon
Fair. AD has a little bit better ball handling. But I could just as easily put Hakeem there. Both are insanely skilled big men.

[bizil]

Kobe is also probably the most creative in game dunker ever. Along with his absurd posters over Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, David Robinson, KG, and Emeka Okafor (as an old man) he had the wildest collection of up and under, 360, alley oop, windmill, and through the leg jams ever seen. It depresses me watching today's game seeing ZERO creative dunking. Spacing has ruined dunking because it has eliminated the need to innovate mid air or get fancy. Everything is a simple jam now.

ABSOLUTELY! Kobe has becomes UNDERRATED for his dunk catalog Kobe was like MJ, Nique, Doc, and Vince. DOMINANT alpha dog scorers who who were slam dunk champions. AND could ALSO impose their will with the awesome game dunks. That's a VERY EXCLUSIVE CLUB! Off the top of my head, they are the ONLY FIVE of ALL TIME u truly can put in that club.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/09/88/1b0988b7b8db3729376a1051d88b3429.jpg

[ShawkFactory]

Fair. AD has a little bit better ball handling. But I could just as easily put Hakeem there. Both are insanely skilled big men.

I’m not even sure that’s true. Bigs just didn’t put it on the floor as often. But IDK

AD’s a better shooter probably and has insane body control to score from multiple angles. But Jordan has those things on Kobe and I noticed you put Kobe at SG. And I presume it’s because of the “moves”. Which is Hakeem Olajuwon in a nutshell.

AD could take a post move class from Hakeem and still not get it.

[j3lademaster]

ABSOLUTELY! Kobe has becomes UNDERRATED for his dunk catalog Kobe was like MJ, Nique, Doc, and Vince. DOMINANT alpha dog scorers who who were slam dunk champions. AND could ALSO impose their will with the awesome game dunks. That's a VERY EXCLUSIVE CLUB! Off the top of my head, they are the ONLY FIVE of ALL TIME u truly can put in that club.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/09/88/1b0988b7b8db3729376a1051d88b3429.jpgoh man. The era of non-fitted suits... my eyes hurt.

[bizil]

oh man. The era of non-fitted suits... My eyes hurt.

lmao!!!!!!!