How good is Michael Carter Williams?

[Random_Guy]

Admittedly Ive never watched the 76ers play (probably wont in the short run lol), can any fans chime in. Yeah the sixers are on a historical losing streak, but in some games theyve actually been able to keep it close, and MCW has been putting up numbers. Most here would probably be inclined to point out that its because he is on a bad team, but triple doubles and multiple double-doubles isnt just something you can do when you are not a good player.

76ers fans?

[3ball]

boss level

[nathanjizzle]

Its stupid to give players credit because they produce numbers yet their team is losing.

[navy]

Its stupid to give players credit because they produce numbers yet their team is losing.
So what are they suppose to do, not put up numbers?

[oarabbus]

So what are they suppose to do, not put up numbers?

No, but for example despite putting up gaudy stats he's nowhere near the level of a Damian Lillard or Kyle Lowry.

[Phenith]

He could be a good PG on a good team, but not as a 1st option (like he is right now).

[strifed169]

He's got the ultimate green light on the shittiest team in the league, yet he has a per of 10, he's trash and any other PG would most likely avg better numbers in his spot.

[dubeta]

The Kevin Love of PG's

[Random_Guy]

he is currently putting up
15.6/6.8/5.9
decent numbers all around, its not as if he is only scoring though?
Those are decent numbers

[CeltsGarlic]

No, but for example despite putting up gaudy stats he's nowhere near the level of a Damian Lillard or Kyle Lowry.

Havent seen anyone even compare those guys to him

[Collie]

he is currently putting up
15.6/6.8/5.9
decent numbers all around, its not as if he is only scoring though?
Those are decent numbers

He's scoring at sub-Rubio levels of inefficiency however, while at least Rubio is an elite passer to make up for his shooting.

[Milbuck]

he is currently putting up
15.6/6.8/5.9
decent numbers all around, its not as if he is only scoring though?
Those are decent numbers
I'm not directly comparing the two, nor should I because I haven't watched much of MCW at all this year..but look at Brandon Knight's stats:

17/5/6/1 on 56% TS. Quality stats, along with a +.500 record, that would lead the casual fan to believe he's just under all-star level, a very very good player in the league :confusedshrug:

And yet he's one of the worst starting point guards in the league. Just a disaster when it comes to playing like a true floor general, making people around him better, doing what his job entails. Holds back the offensive potential of virtually everyone on the team, but most obnoxiously, the prospects and young guys whose numbers/production don't match their ability because of Knight. Plays the most minutes on the team but the offense is 14.3 points worse with him on the floor, defensive impact is pretty much negligible, etc. Just one of the prime examples of box score stats going against everything that is obvious through the eye test.

Again I'm not directly comparing him to MCW in any what whatsoever..just saying stats are meaningless without context and the eye test.

[Im so nba'd out]

He just plays for stats fk him everyone on the team is picking up bad habits because of our stupid ass gm doing this tanking shit that has NEVER EVER WORKED WITHOUT ALREADY HAVING A GOOD TEAM

[AnaheimLakers24]

No, but for example despite putting up gaudy stats he's nowhere near the level of a Damian Lillard or Kyle Lowry.
uhm maybe because his teams arent of the same caliber an hes also only in his 2nd year.

jfc ishiots

[Haymaker]

He's scoring at sub-Rubio levels of inefficiency however, while at least Rubio is an elite passer to make up for his shooting.

He's taking bad shots most of the time because his teammates are inept and he's forced to shoot before the clock runs out.

[fiddy]

on the scale of 0 to 17, obviously not as good as stats tell

[HomieWeMajor]

Poor man's Magic Johnson

[Nets fan 93]

No one is gonna mention he averages 4 turnovers a game?

[SourGrapes]

I'm not directly comparing the two, nor should I because I haven't watched much of MCW at all this year..but look at Brandon Knight's stats:

17/5/6/1 on 56% TS. Quality stats, along with a +.500 record, that would lead the casual fan to believe he's just under all-star level, a very very good player in the league :confusedshrug:

And yet he's one of the worst starting point guards in the league. Just a disaster when it comes to playing like a true floor general, making people around him better, doing what his job entails. Holds back the offensive potential of virtually everyone on the team, but most obnoxiously, the prospects and young guys whose numbers/production don't match their ability because of Knight. Plays the most minutes on the team but the offense is 14.3 points worse with him on the floor, defensive impact is pretty much negligible, etc. Just one of the prime examples of box score stats going against everything that is obvious through the eye test.

Again I'm not directly comparing him to MCW in any what whatsoever..just saying stats are meaningless without context and the eye test.

great post

i don't mean to derail the thread, but milbuck, what do you think will happen with brandon knight?

[hateraid]

No one is gonna mention he averages 4 turnovers a game?

The problem is there is no spacing and the bigs have bad hands.
Chris Paul would have the same amount of TOs in this position


As for OPs question MCW is as solid of a PG as you can get minus the shooting. I'm not saying he's a Rondo, but can become just as effective. He's deceptively lengthy, has great fast break instincts, and can be very poised at times. He's recovering from and injury so give him a break. MCW is coming back to form

[outbreak]

The amount of shots he takes and the amount of times he turns the ball over combined with the fact the 76ers are still trying to trade him and apparently pushed hard to move him last draft and offseason make me think he isn't anything special.

[chocolatethunder]

The amount of shots he takes and the amount of times he turns the ball over combined with the fact the 76ers are still trying to trade him and apparently pushed hard to move him last draft and offseason make me think he isn't anything special.
I'm not convinced that they are trying to trade him but I will talk about him since I've seen just about every game that he's played as a pro.

It's really tough to tell what kind of player he is because he really is playing with a bunch of D Leaguers. The dudes he plays with try really hard but they just aren't any good apart from McDaniel and Noel (wroten and shved are borderline).

That being said, he's never going to be an all star but I think that he can be a solid player. He can do a lot of things well but he's not great at anything. He is extremely athletic (40" vert) and he's got size but he doesn't really know how ti use either. He needs to improve in all areas. He's not an incredible passer in terms of seeing the game unfold before things actually happen. He's a capable passer but nothing like Rubio. He's not a great shooter and he takes awful shots. He still makes lots of dumb decisions with the ball. Is it because he's dumb or is it because he doesn't trust the people he has to pass to? I can't tell yet.

I think that he can be a 12-14ppg 6-8assist and 5rb guy on a good or decent team. He will not be an all star and he'll never be a guy that teams will have to game plan for. I don't know if he will be a real impact player or not it's just impossible to judge him on this team. I mean this team is so bad that it's just comical. I was at the Dallas game and it was embarrassing, I mean really embarrassing. So there's really no way to tell how good or not good he is but I'm certain that he will not be a total stud because if that were the case he'd be averaging 22ppg because he controls the ball and can shoot whenever he wants .

[Milbuck]

great post

i don't mean to derail the thread, but milbuck, what do you think will happen with brandon knight?
I don't think we're shopping him or anything, but if the right offer came up (good picks, quality prospects, etc) we'd listen. I know Kidd likes him a lot, and the front office does as well, but he's far from untouchable like Giannis and Jabari are.

But as of right now it all depends on what kind of money he attracts when he's a RFA in the summer. Apparently there was a pretty sizable difference in what he and his team wanted and what we were willing to give him during extension talks..so again, RFA is key. If he gets a huge offer from some desperate team, he could be gone. But if it's something like 8-10 mil/yr then we'd probably match.

[outbreak]

I'm not convinced that they are trying to trade him but I will talk about him since I've seen just about every game that he's played as a pro.

It's really tough to tell what kind of player he is because he really is playing with a bunch of D Leaguers. The dudes he plays with try really hard but they just aren't any good apart from McDaniel and Noel (wroten and shved are borderline).

That being said, he's never going to be an all star but I think that he can be a solid player. He can do a lot of things well but he's not great at anything. He is extremely athletic (40" vert) and he's got size but he doesn't really know how ti use either. He needs to improve in all areas. He's not an incredible passer in terms of seeing the game unfold before things actually happen. He's a capable passer but nothing like Rubio. He's not a great shooter and he takes awful shots. He still makes lots of dumb decisions with the ball. Is it because he's dumb or is it because he doesn't trust the people he has to pass to? I can't tell yet.

I think that he can be a 12-14ppg 6-8assist and 5rb guy on a good or decent team. He will not be an all star and he'll never be a guy that teams will have to game plan for. I don't know if he will be a real impact player or not it's just impossible to judge him on this team. I mean this team is so bad that it's just comical. I was at the Dallas game and it was embarrassing, I mean really embarrassing. So there's really no way to tell how good or not good he is but I'm certain that he will not be a total stud because if that were the case he'd be averaging 22ppg because he controls the ball and can shoot whenever he wants .

Yeah that's about what I think too. I still think he will be a solid starter or an above average bench guy on a really good team. I still think Philly were trying to sell high on him though and hoping a team bought in to his stats and thought he was going to be a star.

[FireDavidKahn]

So what are they suppose to do, not put up numbers?
No, but it doesn't mean they are any good. MCW isn't good.

[FireDavidKahn]

Poor man's Magic Johnson
Binged out on heroin homeless man version, maybe

[joe]

The amount of shots he takes and the amount of times he turns the ball over combined with the fact the 76ers are still trying to trade him and apparently pushed hard to move him last draft and offseason make me think he isn't anything special.

Sometimes a chess player is willing to trade a queen for a rook. It doesnt mean the queen is a bad piece, the player just sees a better long term play available.

Getting deep on yo ass

[navy]

No, but it doesn't mean they are any good. MCW isn't good.
His numbers arent that good. :confusedshrug:

[chocolatethunder]

Yeah that's about what I think too. I still think he will be a solid starter or an above average bench guy on a really good team. I still think Philly were trying to sell high on him though and hoping a team bought in to his stats and thought he was going to be a star.
I think Philly would trade any player if they got a deal that they wanted and I think that Hinkie has made that clear. I don't think that anyone was offering anything that they wanted. They would only be willing to cash in if they felt they were getting a steal of a deal. They have a lot invested in him and they are trying to develop him so they won't let him walk for anything less than something more than his real market value I'd say. I don't think that they were trying to trade him as much as they were hoping that someone would be stupid and offer them something that they wouldn't be able to pass up.

Like I said, it's pretty much impossible to tell what type of player he is other than that he's not a star/superstar. I hope that he can be a solid player. In all seriousness, people really need to look at how bad this roster is and appreciate the comedy. They are signing bums to two and three year deals for almost no money. It's so bad that you can only laugh. These guys like Sampson, Covington, Chris Johnson (he's gone now), Gordon, Davies and Sims are warm bodies at best. It's really difficult for fans who don't get to see this team play to really understand just how bad these players are. I have played with and against ex-NBA players in summer league and winter league who were not good NBA players at all but were much better than these guys. As a Sixer fan I just laugh and enjoy it. Hinkie is acquiring a bunch of assets for down the road and I'm good with that. He's undoing all the mess that was done in the previous two regimes. He's getting enough draft picks so that if the team ever gets good they will still be able to develop talent and have assets to make deals.

[BuffaloBill]

He's gonna be the first player ever to win back to back ROTY awards

[SwishSquared]

Thanks to the 76ers fans and other guys who've watched him play update the rest of us on his progress! I wonder if the lack of talent surrounding him impacts him to a degree that it's not completely clear how good he may become. The frustration can be overwhelming, I'm sure.

He may be a long-term piece, but given how this upcoming draft has so many bigs, I wonder if Hinkie will be able to trade MCW on draft night. He may have not gotten the deal he wanted last year, but this year he might.

I haven't seen Chad Ford's Big Board 3.0, but draft express currently has like 3 PGs in the first round. If Philly gets somebody like Mudiay (the next PG is #20 on the DE board), they might be able to trade MCW to some team that desperately needs a PG and can then get a stud wing scorer.

[bizil]

What's makes MCW unique is the fact that he's a 6'6 pure PG. He's a pass first player BUT he's not an alpha dog level scorer. Actually, he thinks more similar to a Rondo style PG than he does this new wave of PG's. Plus he's not like CP3 in terms of being a pass first PG who's also an alpha dog level scorer.

I think he has great chance in the future to be a multiple time All Star PG. In the vein of guys like Rondo, Mark Jackson, Stockton, Kidd, Mo Cheeks, etc. But he's gonna do it in a 6'6 body. And I think it's REFRESHING to have a young PG who looks to pass first. Not knocking to new wave of score first PG's, but to me the premium asset of a PG is to be a floor general and drop dimes. Shaun Livingston had similar type size and attributes to MCW, but the injuries took that shit away.

[chocolatethunder]

What's makes MCW unique is the fact that he's a 6'6 pure PG. He's a pass first player BUT he's not an alpha dog level scorer. Actually, he thinks more similar to a Rondo style PG than he does this new wave of PG's. Plus he's not like CP3 in terms of being a pass first PG who's also an alpha dog level scorer.

I think he has great chance in the future to be a multiple time All Star PG. In the vein of guys like Rondo, Mark Jackson, Stockton, Kidd, Mo Cheeks, etc. But he's gonna do it in a 6'6 body. And I think it's REFRESHING to have a young PG who looks to pass first. Not knocking to new wave of score first PG's, but to me the premium asset of a PG is to be a floor general and drop dimes. Shaun Livingston had similar type size and attributes to MCW, but the injuries took that shit away.
I'm not sure what games you're watching and I'm not saying that he's not going to be once he has a team around him, but he is not nor has he been a pass first PG yet. He jacks up so many shit shots it's unreal. Early in the shot clock too. I like him and think he can be a really solid player but if you're saying he's pass first then you're just not watching the games.

[bizil]

I'm not sure what games you're watching and I'm not saying that he's not going to be once he has a team around him, but he is not nor has he been a pass first PG yet. He jacks up so many shit shots it's unreal. Early in the shot clock too. I like him and think he can be a really solid player but if you're saying he's pass first then you're just not watching the games.

He's doing that shit because he's on a piss poor team!! Back in Syracuse u could tell he's a pass first PG. In his ROY season, he was a pass first PG. And I'm PROJECTING what his value will be in addition to what his skills are now. I was never highly impressed with his scoring ability to begin with. That's not his strong suit. This team ACTUALLY needs for him to be a better scorer WHILE being a pass first player. And THAT's why he is jacking up poor shots. He's OVERCOMPENSATING for a lack of talent.

This is what Big O, Magic, isiah, CP3, etc. mastered. Being a pass first player who can dominate scoring as well And MCW may NEVER be that kind of PG. But it's clear to see that he's a pass first player still finding his way on the L of a shitty team. Shitty teams like the Sixers can do weird things to a young player.

[chocolatethunder]

He's doing that shit because he's on a piss poor team!! Back in Syracuse u could tell he's a pass first PG. In his ROY season, he was a pass first PG. And I'm PROJECTING what his value will be in addition to what his skills are now. I was never highly impressed with his scoring ability to begin with. That's not his strong suit. This team ACTUALLY needs for him to be a better scorer WHILE being a pass first player. And THAT's why he is jacking up poor shots. He's OVERCOMPENSATING for a lack of talent.

This is what Big O, Magic, isiah, CP3, etc. mastered. Being a pass first player who can dominate scoring as well And MCW may NEVER be that kind of PG. But it's clear to see that he's a pass first player still finding his way on the L of a shitty team. Shitty teams like the Sixers can do weird things to a young player.
Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. I said that he jacks shots on a shitty team so there's no way to tell if he's pass first or not. It's difficult to project his value because it's hard to get an idea of what he's capable of because the team is so bad.

Let's talk about his ROY season and him being pass first. Thad Young led the team with 16 FGA/game. Evan Turner and MCW were second with 15FGA/game. That doesn't sound very pass first to me. When your PG takes one less shot per game than your leading scorer, I'd hardly call that pass first. This season he's attempting 15 shots a game. So last year at 15 FGA/game he was pass first and this year at 15FGA/game he's not pass first? And this year he's tied with Wroten for the team lead. I assume that Wroten must be pass first as well.

Again, I'm not saying he sucks, I've said several times that he will be a solid starter. I think that he can be a pass first PG but in the NBA, he has not been one yet. To say otherwise means that you're either not being truthful or you're not watching him play.

[bizil]

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. I said that he jacks shots on a shitty team so there's no way to tell if he's pass first or not. It's difficult to project his value because it's hard to get an idea of what he's capable of because the team is so bad.

Let's talk about his ROY season and him being pass first. Thad Young led the team with 16 FGA/game. Evan Turner and MCW were second with 15FGA/game. That doesn't sound very pass first to me. When your PG takes one less shot per game than your leading scorer, I'd hardly call that pass first. This season he's attempting 15 shots a game. So last year at 15 FGA/game he was pass first and this year at 15FGA/game he's not pass first? And this year he's tied with Wroten for the team lead. I assume that Wroten must be pass first as well.

Again, I'm not saying he sucks, I've said several times that he will be a solid starter. I think that he can be a pass first PG but in the NBA, he has not been one yet. To say otherwise means that you're either not being truthful or you're not watching him play.

I've watched the kid play. And I'm being DEAD SERIOUS!! In terms of shot attempts, what is that supposed to mean. I'm sure Magic over time was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd on his team in shot attempts. ARE YOU TELLING ME EARVIN MAGIC JOHNSON was a shoot first player? I'm sure Isiah was the same way, are u telling me Isiah WASN'T a pass first player.

Pass first as a PG means u look to pass first. That DOESN'T mean u don't look to score. Depending on your team, that can determine how many times u shoot. HELL, sometimes a pass first PG is ALSO his team's most talented scorer. So he would BE A FOOL not to exploit that scoring while being a pass first player. MCW plays on a shitty team in Philly SO WHO GIVES A **** about his shot attempts. He's on a team where he needs to AT LEAST TRY to be more aggressive scoring!!! Gotta say don't know u the hell you are, but your logic piss poor FLAT OUT!!

[chocolatethunder]

I've watched the kid play. And I'm being DEAD SERIOUS!! In terms of shot attempts, what is that supposed to mean. I'm sure Magic over time was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd on his team in shot attempts. ARE YOU TELLING ME EARVIN MAGIC JOHNSON was a shoot first player? I'm sure Isiah was the same way, are u telling me Isiah WASN'T a pass first player.

Pass first as a PG means u look to pass first. That DOESN'T mean u don't look to score. Depending on your team, that can determine how many times u shoot. HELL, sometimes a pass first PG is ALSO his team's most talented scorer. So he would BE A FOOL not to exploit that scoring while being a pass first player. MCW plays on a shitty team in Philly SO WHO GIVES A **** about his shot attempts. He's on a team where he needs to AT LEAST TRY to be more aggressive scoring!!! Gotta say don't know u the hell you are, but your logic piss poor FLAT OUT!!
Let me give you an example of a possession that I've seen MCW do several times a game. Dribble down the floor and then dribble some more and shoot a poor shot. Never look to pass to anyone. You do understand that when you use screens and run an offense that there will be an open man, even if that player is shit right? Well a pass first PG will look for the pass and then take a shot if he thinks that his shot has a better chance of going in than shot that would result from his pass. The thing is with MCW he's not a talented scorer he's just shooting more than all the other shitty scorers on this team because he has the ball in his hands. Again, he could get better shots but he chooses to shoot bad ones. Several times a game he will bring the ball up and not swing it. He won't even give the play a chance to develop. Again, he may end up being good and this team is too shitty to know but he's not pass first, he's a shot jacker.

[bizil]

Let me give you an example of a possession that I've seen MCW do several times a game. Dribble down the floor and then dribble some more and shoot a poor shot. Never look to pass to anyone. You do understand that when you use screens and run an offense that there will be an open man, even if that player is shit right? Well a pass first PG will look for the pass and then take a shot if he thinks that his shot has a better chance of going in than shot that would result from his pass. The thing is with MCW he's not a talented scorer he's just shooting more than all the other shitty scorers on this team because he has the ball in his hands. Again, he could get better shots but he chooses to shoot bad ones. Several times a game he will bring the ball up and not swing it. He won't even give the play a chance to develop. Again, he may end up being good and this team is too shitty to know but he's not pass first, he's a shot jacker.

The kid is still learning. And he's on a piss poor team. He's still learning the nuances of the position. But I still maintain he's a pass first player. I feel it's a matter of not trusting his teammates, learning the NBA game, and learning the proper balance he needs to have on that team.

Just because u are a pass first PG DOESN'T mean u are necessarily a great passer. Or a great NBA floor general. It just means u have the fundamental PG mentality, BUT U AREN'T AS EFFECTIVE AT IT AS THE ELITE PG'S WHO PRACTICE THAT! I never said MCW was elite, but his basic thought process is of a pass first PG. He's just finding his way and having a rough time. I still see enough potential in him to where he will get it down.

[chocolatethunder]

The kid is still learning. And he's on a piss poor team. He's still learning the nuances of the position. But I still maintain he's a pass first player. I feel it's a matter of not trusting his teammates, learning the NBA game, and learning the proper balance he needs to have on that team.

Just because u are a pass first PG DOESN'T mean u are necessarily a great passer. Or a great NBA floor general. It just means u have the fundamental PG mentality, BUT U AREN'T AS EFFECTIVE AT IT AS THE ELITE PG'S WHO PRACTICE THAT! I never said MCW was elite, but his basic thought process is of a pass first PG. He's just finding his way and having a rough time. I still see enough potential in him to where he will get it down.
If you read what I said, you would have seen that I said that maybe he is a pass first PG and he just hasn't shown it yet because of how awful the team is. I said several times that I think that he'll be a solid player.

[bizil]

If you read what I said, you would have seen that I said that maybe he is a pass first PG and he just hasn't shown it yet because of how awful the team is. I said several times that I think that he'll be a solid player.

I read what u said LMBAO! I'm just reinforcing my belief that he's a pass first PG. I could tell at Syracuse he was a pass first PG. Jay Bilas and all the analysts were raving about a 6'6 player whose best position was as a PG. If u are 6'6 and YOUR BEST POSITION is PG, that means u are likely a pass first kind of PG. He's just rough around the edges at this point. And as I said before, just because u are a pass first PG, that doesn't mean u are gonna be among the best in that sense. Many backup PG's throughout history can attest to that. Of course MCW has the potential WAY BEYOND that and will become AT LEAST very good in that aspect.

There's a reason why there haven't been many 6'6 and up PG's in the NBA. Im not talking a point forward where u are running the offense from the SF position. I'm talking about being a big PG paired with a natural SG and a natural SF, like Magic, Penny, rookie year Bron, and rookie year Steve Smith used to do.

[T_L_P]

Homeless man's Jason Kidd, tbh.

[Prometheus]

Its stupid to give players credit because they produce numbers yet their team is losing.

So did Kobe suddenly become a bad basketball player for two years after Shaq left?

[masonanddixon]

He has insane ballhandling skills for someone his height. I can't remember if he's good on defense though.