if jordan had a 3ball... [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Real Men Wear Green

12-06-2014, 10:03 AM

As the cornerstone of the offense the three wasn't an important shot for Jordan. He was trying to score as efficiently as he could with an eye for open teammates, not take his man out the perimeter so that Luc Longley can post up. He would take them when open or under pressure from the clock but it wouldn't have made him much more effective. He was unstoppable attacking the basket and good from midrange. Threes would have been a distraction. We're talking about the greatest scoring guard of all time after all.

Nikola_

12-06-2014, 10:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU

hateraid

12-06-2014, 12:27 PM

I can play the hypothetical game...

If MJ played in today's era and used the 3pt shot as much as the other players, he'd be averaging a high percentage (say 40% minimum).

He'd make sure he practices that shot until it becomes a true weapon.

Then why didn't he and add it to his arsenal?

Why is it so hard to accept Jordan wasn't a good 3-point shooter?

MP.Trey

12-06-2014, 12:32 PM

If jordan had a up, would 3ball be posting less?

Spurs5Rings2014

12-06-2014, 12:53 PM

If jordan had a up, would 3ball be posting less?

I'd sure hope so.

J Shuttlesworth

12-06-2014, 01:18 PM

If jordan was gay, would 3ball be posting less?
Fixed, and yes

Poetry

12-06-2014, 01:44 PM

Then why didn't he and add it to his arsenal?

Why is it so hard to accept Jordan wasn't a good 3-point shooter?

Between 1989-90/1996-97 he shot .372 (includes shortened line).

Between 1989-90/1992-93 he shot .342 (without shortened line).

Once he had it in his arsenal, it was a pretty good shot for him. It was only early in his career that he didn't have it. And then later on as the finger injuries mounted, not to mention the years, the percentage went down again.

hateraid

12-06-2014, 01:57 PM

Between 1989-90/1996-97 he shot .372 (includes shortened line).

Between 1989-90/1992-93 he shot .342 (without shortened line).

Once he had it in his arsenal, it was a pretty good shot for him. It was only early in his career that he didn't have it. And then later on as the finger injuries mounted, not to mention the years, the percentage went down again.

Reachers be reaching.

Quit making excuses.
His fingers hurt?:lol
Now I've heard it all from Jordan stans

Poetry

12-06-2014, 02:13 PM

His fingers hurt?:lol

He was playing with a cracked knuckle and a torn ligament late in his career, which is probably one of the reasons his finger looks weird.

http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/17/20/86/43/h-jord10.jpg

And then in the off-season around the time of the 2nd retirement, he severed a tendon in his finger that never healed properly and he had trouble bending that finger during his days with the Wizards.

hateraid

12-06-2014, 02:18 PM

He was playing with a cracked knuckle and a torn ligament late in his career, which is probably one of the reasons his finger looks weird.

http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/17/20/86/43/h-jord10.jpg

And then in the off-season around the time of the 2nd retirement, he severed a tendon in his finger that never healed properly and he had trouble bending that finger during his days with the Wizards.

If it was that bad he couldn't shoot, PERIOD.

Just accept he wasn't a good 3 point shooter. Nobody is arguing he isn't the greatest scorer.

mehyaM24

12-06-2014, 02:39 PM

If it was that bad he couldn't shoot, PERIOD.

Just accept he wasn't a good 3 point shooter. Nobody is arguing he isn't the greatest scorer.

i would say jordan had seasons where he was closer to being a good 3pt shooter than a bad one - but CONSISTENCY is obviously what we're talking about here.

given that lebron, supposedly a non-shooter, has a better CAREER 3pt% in the postseason AND playoffs, says it all. i would imagine jordan's field-goal percentage would be somewhere in the mid to high 40s with today's emphasis of 3 pointers.

Dragonyeuw

12-06-2014, 05:16 PM

The 3 point shot was less of a weapon in Jordan's era than it is today. Its no shock that modern guards use it to a greater degree and some may have better percentages as a result. Hell look at Larry Bird's early career 3point shooting percentages... and many consider him the GOAT shooter...not too impressive by modern standards and only increased when it became more of a normal shot league-wide.

3ball

12-06-2014, 05:55 PM

swagga

12-06-2014, 05:57 PM

If jordan had a up, would 3ball be posting less?

this man gets it

3ball

12-06-2014, 05:58 PM

3-Point Percentages - Figures EXCLUDE 1995-1997 Shortened Line Seasons

...........................................Reg Season...................... Playoffs

Jordan's Career:........................28.8%.............. ............34.5%

.................................................. ................................... :eek:

Lebron Career: .........................34.1%.................... .......33.3%
couple this ^^^^^^ with the fact that Jordan's record-breaking 3-point shooting in the 1992 Finals demonstrated a higher level of PEAK PERFORMANCE shooting 3's than Lebron has ever been able to achieve, and it becomes very clear that Jordan was the better 3-point shooter.

Also, the fact that the 3-point shot wasn't used, valued or practiced in Jordan's day adds even more credence to Jordan being the better 3-point shooter, especially given his superior playoff 3-point shooting percentage and superior peak 3-point shooting performance.
.

sportjames23

12-06-2014, 06:14 PM

Then why didn't he and add it to his arsenal?

Why is it so hard to accept Jordan wasn't a good 3-point shooter?

Ask the '92 Blazers that.

mehyaM24

12-06-2014, 06:33 PM

Ask the '92 Blazers that.
yes - i am of the belief, jordan did infact have the 3 point shot in his arsenal, unlike some posters (hateraid). he was actually a VG streak 3 point shooter.

of course - jordan's first 4 seasons in the league, he never shot higher than 30% percent from beyond the arc - but again, he did improve and even shot ~38% from 3 during the 89-90 season. when we're comparing him to other perimeter players that shoot ~3 or 4 attempts per game, though, he is barely average - it's important to note that attempts are crucial when gauging a players 3 point worth.

take fg% for example. i remember pointing out lebron's field goal percentage in a comparison to jordan, and a poster, in ignorant haste, brought up tyson chandler's absurd 70% fg. thing is, posters IN THE KNOW understand that he (chandler) is spoon-fed layups and dunks around the basket, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, doesn't have the acquired volume of attempts to draw a FAIR comparison.

WHAT WE KNOW: jordan was a good 3pt shooter given the attempts, just not on the level of, say, the durant, lebron and even kobe's of the world who are more skilled shooters from deep.

3ball

12-06-2014, 06:35 PM

jordan was a good 3pt shooter given the attempts, just not on the level of, say, the durant, lebron and even kobe's of the world who are more skilled shooters from deep.

do you think it really makes sense to disregard the fact that players did not use, practice or value the 3-point shot in previous eras?

doesn't it make sense to consider the recent explosion of the shot and strategy surrounding the shot in recent years?

and doesn't it make sense to consider the fact that Jordan himself, specifically hated the shot and went out of his way to avoid the shot?.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m13s

"The 3-point shot is something i don't want to excel at because it takes away from all phases of my game.. My game is to fake, drive to the hole, penetrate, dish off, dunk or whatever... and when you have that mentality as i found out in the first game of making 3's, you don't go to the hole as much, you start running to the 3-point line and starting sitting there and waiting for someone to find you.. and that's not my mentality and i don't want to create that, because it takes away from other parts of my game."

and in light of these circumstances, doesn't it makes sense to marvel that Jordan still had the higher playoff 3-point shooting percentage and the superior peak shooting performance?.... not to mention perfect form.
.

hateraid

12-06-2014, 06:40 PM

Ask the '92 Blazers that.

There have been many below average 3 point shooters that have caught fire in short glimpses.
Zeke, Barkley, LJ, Rondo......
All have had mini streaks where they've caught fire, some even more impressive. Ask the Suns when Bol hit 6 3 pointers on them. *** outta here with sample sizes

ArbitraryWater

12-06-2014, 06:44 PM

Then why didn't he and add it to his arsenal?

Why is it so hard to accept Jordan wasn't a good 3-point shooter?

I don't get it.. He's the GOAT, is that not enough?

He was playing with a cracked knuckle and a torn ligament late in his career, which is probably one of the reasons his finger looks weird.

http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/17/20/86/43/h-jord10.jpg

And then in the off-season around the time of the 2nd retirement, he severed a tendon in his finger that never healed properly and he had trouble bending that finger during his days with the Wizards.

Man, excuses....

Most basketball players have crippled hands/fingers.

Look at Larry:

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/23/1119541744_5995.jpg
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1026581/swtg-larry-bird.jpg
(Just won the 3-point contest)

Never hear a thing about it..

hateraid

12-06-2014, 06:51 PM

I don't get it.. He's the GOAT, is that not enough?

Man, excuses....

Most basketball players have crippled hands/fingers.

Look at Larry:

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/23/1119541744_5995.jpg
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1026581/swtg-larry-bird.jpg
(Just won the 3-point contest)

Never hear a thing about it..
I can accept people thinking he's the greatest, I just find it funny his stans go through great lengths to cover for his short comings.
What's his excuse for being an abusive teammate? Menstrual cramps?

mehyaM24

12-06-2014, 07:09 PM

do you think it really makes sense to disregard the fact that players did not use, practice or value the 3-point shot in previous eras?

the FACT jordan refused to take many 3 pointers, suggests that he was without a doubt average from beyond the arc. larry bird and to a certain degree, magic, dont have these laid out, red-carpet excuses for them. when the 3 point line shortened, it is NOT a coincidence that jordan attempted more 3's - they were NEARER his range.

in today's game, jordan WOULD shoot more 3 pointers (obviously) - but he would also make more, although he NEVER showed, even on substantial attempts where you can make a comparison, that he was on durant, lebron or even kobe's level in that regard - which there is no shame in.

3ball

12-06-2014, 07:17 PM

the FACT jordan refused to take many 3 pointers, suggests that he was without a doubt average from beyond the arc.

Here are facts:

Michael Jordan: "The 3-point shot is something i don't want to excel at because it takes away from all phases of my game.. My game is to fake, drive to the hole, penetrate, dish off, dunk or whatever... and when you have that mentality as i found out in the first game of making 3's, you don't go to the hole as much, you start running to the 3-point line and starting sitting there and waiting for someone to find you.. and that's not my mentality and i don't want to create that, because it takes away from other parts of my game."

^^^^^^^^^ this was Jordan's word-for-word answer to a question about 3-pointers after game 1 of 1992 NBA Finals.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m13s

in light of these circumstances, doesn't it makes sense to marvel that Jordan still had the higher playoff 3-point shooting percentage and the superior peak shooting performance?.... and he not only had better form, but perfect form.

mehyaM24

12-06-2014, 07:26 PM

Here are facts:

^^^^^^^^^ this was Jordan's word-for-word answer to a question about 3-pointers after game 1 of 1992 NBA Finals.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m13s

this is the SAME dilemma posters struggle with in regards to fg%. one must ALWAYS apply volume in that contrast - and in this case, jordan's STREAK 3 point shooting pales in comparison to lebron's superior regular season and playoff 3 point percentages (peak lebron, mind you). consistency always trump often FLUKE streak-play.

given that GREATER sample, we must conclude with EXTREME prejudice, that lebron is indeed a cut-above jordan in that regard.

http://cjzero.com/gifs/LeBronStaresDownGSWCrowd.gif

Prometheus

12-06-2014, 07:28 PM

this is the SAME dilemma posters struggle with in regards to fg%. one must ALWAYS apply volume in that contrast - and in this case, jordan's STREAK 3 point shooting pales in comparison to lebron's superior regular season and playoff 3 point percentages (peak lebron, mind you).

given that GREATER sample, we must conclude with EXTREME prejudice, that lebron is indeed a cut-above jordan in that regard.

http://cjzero.com/gifs/LeBronStaresDownGSWCrowd.gif

:facepalm

I agree with you in this debate, but I can't believe you just used LeBron's cringe-worthy stomp ritual as an exclamation.

mehyaM24

12-06-2014, 07:30 PM

:facepalm

I agree with you in this debate, but I can't believe you just used LeBron's cringe-worthy stomp ritual as an exclamation.

honestly i thought it was a cool celebration. pure emotion from an unraveled BEAST.

i could have posted his game winning 3 pointer against the magic (probably should have) - but i have done so MANY times before. hell i posted it earlier ITT. :oldlol:

Prometheus

12-06-2014, 07:49 PM

honestly i thought it was a cool celebration.

Well you're entitled to your opinion... just be aware that you're probably very alone on this one. I'm pretty sure Gloria even cringed at that shit.

RidonKs

12-06-2014, 07:49 PM

you've got it backwards. the reason jordan didn't have a three ball is because he wanted to post up more.

mehyaM24

12-06-2014, 11:51 PM

jordan's average 3 point shooting is EVIDENCED by his record of MOST missed threes in 3PT contest history.

http://www.nba-allstar.com/contests/3point/records.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XOnpCBdiA

but more importantly, he has never had a season shooting 40% from beyond the arc like lebron has, on substantial attempts - of course, one can also point out clutch three pointers in the postseason, where jordan never had something like this

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/lebronfinalshot052209.gif

walk off, 3 point game winner IN STYLE, against the leagues #1 rated defense. cant get any better than that.

WHAT WE KNOW II: jordan is a good 3 point shooter if given the attempts, just not on the level of lebron, who has a better career 3 point shooting percentage in the regular season and playoffs.

dreamwarrior

12-07-2014, 01:37 AM

3ball

12-07-2014, 02:00 AM

3-Point Percentages - Figures EXCLUDE 1995-1997 Shortened Line Seasons

...........................................Reg Season...................... Playoffs

Jordan's Career:........................28.8%.............. ............34.5%

.................................................. ................................... :eek:

Lebron Career: .........................34.1%.................... .......33.3%

ok, let's ignore that jordan hated the shot... and let's ignore that the shot wasn't used, practiced or valued in jordan's era...

then let's ignore that jordan STILL had the higher playoff 3-point shooting percentage, the higher peak 3-point shooting performance (broke the 3-point record in 1992 Finals), better form, and was dimensions stronger mentally.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

no way i'm ignoring all that - i'd bet my house that Jordan would be one of the best 3-point shooters in the league if he played today... Why?... because 3-point shooting drives winning in today's game... and jordan isn't missing out on winning - we can all agree on that.

SamuraiSWISH

12-07-2014, 02:20 AM

He didn't bail defenses out or destroy his efficiency by hoisting up a dumb shot consistently. Instead he worked on his craft and became the greatest scorer ever by being an ELITE, consistent mid range scorer.

Something that becomes necessary to excel come playoff time to win. When refs swallow whistles, great defenses can focus in on a player, and the three-point line is defended.

See LeBron's failures in 2010, and 2011 with out a mid range game or post up ability. Or James Harden's drop off a cliff moment come post season.

Of course Mike could hit the 3 ball if need be, or if the defense disrespectfully begged him to shoot it. Just ask Portland, and Drexler. If the game was close MJ would've put up near 70 in a Finals game.

The best player on the floor needs to attack. At the rim, or from the mid range. To keep a defense on their heels. Jacking up 3 pointers as an elite player ultimately isn't a great idea.

97 bulls

12-07-2014, 02:30 AM

mehyaM24

12-07-2014, 02:44 AM

MJ shot 45% from 3 in college but didn't have the strength to shoot the NBA 3. A lot of those misses in the 3pt contest were straight but short. With some weight training he'd have no problem with the 3 today

the bottom line is, jordan was an average shooter from three but he didnt like to shoot 3 pointers because he knew that it would take away from the rest of his game - IOW, he was too INCONSISTENT to be relied on from the 3 point range (opposite would be, larry bird).

of course, this is backed up by the fact, on comparable attempts lebron out shoots jordan in the regular season and playoffs (higher career 3pt percentage WITH a LARGE volume to back it up). of course - when the 3 point line was shortened, jordan took FULL advantage of it, shooting 37.5% during the 1995 season and 42.7% the year following. he attempted over 200 3's in a season he shot over 35% - but again, he just never felt the need to shoot out there because he was not VERSATILE enough to do so CONSISTENTLY.

on substantial attempts (~2 or more with the 3 point line INTACT):
better 3 point percentage in the regular season - lebron
better 3 point percentage in the post season - lebron
better peak 3 point shooter in the regular season - lebron
better peak 3 point shooter in the playoffs - lebron
more game winning 3 pointers in the playoffs - lebron

what we can conclude from this is, the 23'9" distance was simply beyond his range (his 3 point percentage predictably went down during the 1998 season, the year they moved the 3 point back to its original length) - and finally, that jordan simply cannot be compared to lebron, the superior 3 point shooter.