Hypothetical: What if Lebron started at PG right from the beginning...

[Dragic4Life]

instead of trying to chase and surpass Jordan (which he's on his way to doing btw).

Would he be a better version of Magic?

I believe it would be an easier route to being a top 2 GOAT had he chose to be a point guard right from the beginning. Our King chose the adversity path, he has MJ in his target scope.

We comin' for the GOAT spot.

[VengefulAngel]

His career averages would be 25/10/7, and be considered a slightly lesser player then he is today.

[Real Men Wear Green]

James's finals failures have ended any legit argument for him over Jordan. James is a great player but what you continually fail to realize is that if you want to argue someone over Jordan the standard will be extremely high.

[livinglegend]

James's finals failures have ended any legit argument for him over Jordan. James is a great player but what you continually fail to realize is that if you want to argue someone over Jordan the standard will be extremely high.
GOAT is subjective. Your ''legit'' arguments may be not be ''legit'' in his eyes.

[Im so nba'd out]

I just couldn't see lebron averaging 12 assist a game yeah he passes a lot but he chucks way more than magic ever did

[Haymaker]

His FG% would be in the 60's

[Real Men Wear Green]

GOAT is subjective. Your ''legit'' arguments may be not be ''legit'' in his eyes.
Then he needs his eyes checked. James has a number of very bad Finals performances that contributed to his team losing. Jordan does not. The standard of "GOAT" is extremely high, a fact that the James stans will just have to deal with.

[plowking]

Then he needs his eyes checked. James has a number of very bad Finals performances that contributed to his team losing. Jordan does not. The standard of "GOAT" is extremely high, a fact that the James stans will just have to deal with.

That is subjective, once again. Why not look at performances prior. James has one performance that cost his team a finals.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That is subjective, once again. Why not look at performances prior. James has one performance that cost his team a finals.
What is "subjective" about 6 Finals MVP awards to 2? And he's had more than one bad Finals performance. The first Finals series vs, SA (which, to be fair, was hopeless) he had a bad game 1, the first year in Miami he did nothing in the clutch vs. Dallas. He is, of course, an all-time great player but we aren't comparing him to T-Mac or Paul Pierce, we're talking about Jordan. That means the standard is going to be high. MJ and James are guys that could average 30+, pile up assists and/or rebounds, shoot great from the field any time they wanted to. It has to go deeper than regular season stats because players in the "GOAT" argument almost always got 60+ wins and great stats. We have to look at what they did in the postseason. And as a postseason performer Jordan crushes James. James himself knows this, that's why he campaigns for less minutes in the regular season and has 1 30 ppg season (I think). He wants to be at his absolute best in the playoffs so that he can lead the Cavs to the Championship. Because that's what his legacy is going to be judged on.

[fragokota]

Then he needs his eyes checked. James has a number of very bad Finals performances that contributed to his team losing. Jordan does not. The standard of "GOAT" is extremely high, a fact that the James stans will just have to deal with.


Althought it seems to be extremely difficult, you can never say never when a guy is still active. I mean he is not even 30 yet. MJ became GOAT mainly for his chips past his 30th birthday. What if he wins a couple with his native Cavs along with the redemption story and shit, he'll climb the ladder pretty fast imho (i doubt that he'll win with Cleveland though). Thet guy may not be pleasing to the eye, may not be a cold blooded killer like MJ, but if he can stay healthy, his overall numbers, his credentials and accolades can back him up pretty good for GOAT candidancy (again that's IF he wins a couple more chips).

[Real Men Wear Green]

Althought it seems to extremely difficult, you can never say never when a guy is still active. I mean he is not even 30 yet. MJ became GOAT mainly for his chips past his 30th birthday. What if he wins a couple with his native Cavs and the redemption story and shit, he climb the ladder pretty fast imho (i doubt that he'll win with Cleveland though). Thet guy may not be pleasing to the eye, may not be a cold blooded killer like MJ, but if he can stay healthy, his numbers overall, his credentials and accolades can back him up pretty good for GOAT candidancy.
The bolded part is why I'm sure he won't surpass Jordan. I do believe he'll win more rings but we'll see some postseason failures along the way as well. He's got four Finals MVP and champ rings to go. That's a high hill to climb. That killer instinct is huge. It's why Kobe Bryant is so far ahead of Vince Carter. Honestly James may have been more athletically gifted than Jordan because of the size and power he possesses. But Jordan was a killer in the clutch while James has had some moments of choking to go along with moments of greatness. He's not a total choker, I'm not saying that, but when guys are as dominant as Jordan and James throughout the year what is going to set them apart from one another is what they do in the playoffs.

[pauk]

25-7-10.

A more athletic Magic kindof, with better D.

[Bandito]

James is not better than Kobe, explain to me how is he better than MJ.

[pauk]

James is not better than Kobe, explain to me how is he better than MJ.

Cant, but explaining how he is better than Kobe is unfortunately for you extremly easy....

[Bandito]

Cant, but explaining how he is better than Kobe is unfortunately for you extremly easy....
I know it is easy to explain. HE IS NOT better.

[STATUTORY]

the difference between Magic and Lebron is that Magic was a great passer and Lebron is good at cheesing assists by driving and dishing

let's not conflate the two

[GimmeThat]

he may/would have to give up a lot of those easy lay ups resulted from his over powering drive

[bizil]

Lebron has always been a point forward in his career. THE DIFFERENCE NOW is Marion is starting now. Marion is a natural SF who's secondary position is PF. Kyrie is a shoot first PG. So in a sense u could say Cleveland's lineup is this:

PG- Bron
SG- Kyrie
SF- Marion
PF- Love
C- Varejo

So Bron right now is a guard in Cleveland's lineup. But Bron and Kyrie right now are doing the Norm Nixon-Magic kind of backcourt. Because Kyrie often brings up the rock often after a made basket. So right now its the Norm-Magic kind of look (WHICH WAS AN ILL BACKCOURT) instead of the Magic-B Scott kind of backcourt where Magic was CLEARLY the PG, Scott SG, and Worthy SF.

Could Bron dominate and be a full time PG? Of course he could!! He's a pass first player as it is. But with that Dr. J freak athletic ability in a Karl Malone body, u want Bron in the open court and FINISHING PLAYS instead of creating with the pass. That's why he was typically more of a point forward so he could mix the two.

[Poetry]

had he chose to be a point guard right from the beginning.

When he first came into the league he was playing the point. He's listed as a SG for that first season now, but I distinctly remember him playing PG for a while and then again some years later.

[Dragic4Life]

James is not better than Kobe, explain to me how is he better than MJ.
You're a disgusting troll disguised as a good poster. Frankly this post of yours just showed me what a piece of shit you are.

Trying to instigate a troll war with this insane statement.:facepalm

[livinglegend]

What is "subjective" about 6 Finals MVP awards to 2? And he's had more than one bad Finals performance. The first Finals series vs, SA (which, to be fair, was hopeless) he had a bad game 1, the first year in Miami he did nothing in the clutch vs. Dallas. He is, of course, an all-time great player but we aren't comparing him to T-Mac or Paul Pierce, we're talking about Jordan. That means the standard is going to be high. MJ and James are guys that could average 30+, pile up assists and/or rebounds, shoot great from the field any time they wanted to. It has to go deeper than regular season stats because players in the "GOAT" argument almost always got 60+ wins and great stats. We have to look at what they did in the postseason. And as a postseason performer Jordan crushes James. James himself knows this, that's why he campaigns for less minutes in the regular season and has 1 30 ppg season (I think). He wants to be at his absolute best in the playoffs so that he can lead the Cavs to the Championship. Because that's what his legacy is going to be judged on.

6 FMVP awards to 2 is not subjective (it's objective numbers) , but the fact that you give importance to finals is subjective.
You talk about standards being high. What you consider '' high standards'' may not be considered ''high standards'' for another person. We all view the world differently. The criterias people use to evaluate players vary from one person to another.

[livinglegend]

Then he needs his eyes checked. James has a number of very bad Finals performances that contributed to his team losing. Jordan does not. The standard of "GOAT" is extremely high, a fact that the James stans will just have to deal with.

This is your subjective opinion. He may feel the same about you. Your view =/= universal truth. There s no ''true'' GOAT list.

[bizil]

When he first came into the league he was playing the point. He's listed as a SG for that first season now, but I distinctly remember him playing PG for a while and then again some years later.

U are right! He came in as the ACTUAL PG. Bron was PG, Ricky Davis was SG, and Darius Miles was SF. That was the lineup the Cavs wanted to roll with. But when they traded Davis to Boston, they moved Bron to SG. And as u stated, Bron has played as the ACTUAL PG (not his normal point forward role) several times during his career.

[ArbitraryWater]

I know it is easy to explain. HE IS NOT better.

tbh as much as I hate to say it, LeBron likely is better

white text with the truth :D

[Real Men Wear Green]

6 FMVP awards to 2 is not subjective (it's objective numbers) , but the fact that you give importance to finals is subjective.
You talk about standards being high. What you consider '' high standards'' may not be considered ''high standards'' for another person. We all view the world differently. The criterias people use to evaluate players vary from one person to another.
Winning a Championship is supposedly the goal of every team in the league. There is no accomplishment more important.

[Quickening]

Winning a Championship is supposedly the goal of every team in the league. There is no accomplishment more important.
Team achievement... If you follow other sports they put no where near the emphasis on championships as a lot of basketball fans

[ILLsmak]

6 FMVP awards to 2 is not subjective (it's objective numbers) , but the fact that you give importance to finals is subjective.
You talk about standards being high. What you consider '' high standards'' may not be considered ''high standards'' for another person. We all view the world differently. The criterias people use to evaluate players vary from one person to another.

I dunno... I mean, one must take context into account, TRUE, but in a game where winning is the goal and winning leads to finals, it's not really subjective.

We believe, fairly or not, that players should, if they are great, always play out of their mind in the finals. Some people say MJ didn't, but he had already won 4 or 5 by then and he was older. He still got it done. His last shot was a game winner.

If you say that Bron or Kobe padded his resume... or tried to create GOAT moments, maybe MJ did, too... like that last shot or the flu game. The difference being... MJ succeeded when he created those moments, every time.

MJ's resume is objectively perfect. He has stats, accolades and hype. His game is sexy. While I don't agree MJ (or anyone) is undisputed, across all eras GOAT... there's no one who has a better resume. In pro basketball, an entertainment sport, winning and hype are most important.

Another example... there is a criteria that is used to decide who is "the best." In most cases, there is a set "You have to do this, you have to do that, etc" whether it's in acting or art or basketball. Even to become a Catholic Saint. It can be bent, and maybe those are bad examples because it's hard to decide who is 'da bess' and nobody is doubting that LeBron is one of the best; however, the argument I want to make is that in those cases objective truth is subjective. It is something agreed upon by the greats and the people who study it. So, when your opinion is different, you are the one who has to defend it.

I don't believe you can say WELL ITS SUBJECTIVE TO CARE ABOUT CHAMPIONSHIPS. No, it's that way, fair or unfair. Can't really disqualify that by saying subjective. It's like well yea Shakespeare but what if you don't care about plays?

The best you could do would be 'here is my essay' or 'here is my source' that explains why winning in the Finals is not necessary to be GOAT. And expect people to laugh at you. Just remember, in this case the opposing stance should be seen as 'subjective'; I say this as someone who often looks at the opposing stance and takes it.

-Smak

[J Shuttlesworth]

Winning a Championship is supposedly the goal of every team in the league. There is no accomplishment more important.
Teams are responsible for championships, not just one individual person. If MJ had gotten drafted to a shitty organization, he may have never even won a ring. Does that make him a worse player? I wouldn't think so

Not saying LeBron > Jordan, but looking at all time rankings and only basing it on ring count is extremely short sighted

[Dragic4Life]

Teams are responsible for championships, not just one individual person. If MJ had gotten drafted to a shitty organization, he may have never even won a ring. Does that make him a worse player? I wouldn't think so

Not saying LeBron > Jordan, but looking at all time rankings and only basing it on ring count is extremely short sighted
Agree wholeheartedly.

Why isn't Bill Russell the undisputed GOAT?

[Bandito]

You're a disgusting troll disguised as a good poster. Frankly this post of yours just showed me what a piece of shit you are.

Trying to instigate a troll war with this insane statement.:facepalm
I don't make troll threads using multiple accounts like some people. And I have never disguised myself as a good poster. I am a bad guy by nature, I just tell it like it is. And why are you so mad? I never even insulted the guy in this thread....yet:lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Team achievement... If you follow other sports they put no where near the emphasis on championships as a lot of basketball fans
It's a team achievement but basketball is a sport where one man's performance can make a huge difference and when MJ has 6 FMVP awards while James has failed in the clutch about as much as he has succeeded when it comes to the Finals that's a big edge in MJ's favor.
Teams are responsible for championships, not just one individual person. If MJ had gotten drafted to a shitty organization, he may have never even won a ring. Does that make him a worse player? I wouldn't think so

Not saying LeBron > Jordan, but looking at all time rankings and only basing it on ring count is extremely short sighted
The hypothetical doesn't matter because both Jordan as well as James got to show what they can do on the biggest stage multiple times. No one that never got to the Finals would be part of a GOAT discussion in basketball anyway.

[Bandito]

white text with the truth :D
Nice try bub:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Nice try bub:lol

cmon.. I spoke right from your soul :D

[Bandito]

cmon.. I spoke right from your soul :D
What soul?:biggums:

[Young X]

He actually did start as a PG in his rookie year. Remember when he played with Ricky Davis and Darius Miles? Before Davis got traded Bron was the PG iirc.

[ArbitraryWater]

What soul?:biggums:

:eek:

the chaimber of hidden truths and opinions

[kennethgriffin]

this is what we've been asking lebron to do forever. we always said he should play the pippen role and he's more suited to being his teams #1 playmaker, #2 scorer like pippen was for chicago

but people and lebron himself always wanted him to average 30 point triple doubles. and its brought him mostly disapointment

trying to do waaaaaaaay too much when he isnt even a great shooter when contested. and it shows in the mid range.

he also held down his HOF team mates in the past doing this

if lebron did this during 2011. they win the title.

if lebron did this during 2014. they win the title.

he should have helped wade and bosh the way he is with erving right now

and he should sacrafice even more of his scoring to get kevin love going

lebron shooting should be the last option on the floor.

15ppg/10apg/7rpg would be a great average for him

[livinglegend]

Winning a Championship is supposedly the goal of every team in the league. There is no accomplishment more important.

So? You can still have people using other criterias than finals/winning. It's subjective. You can use any criteria you want. You may not agree with their opinion and their criterias, but truth is that an opinion can't be wrong.

[ArbitraryWater]

this is what we've been asking lebron to do forever. we always said he should play the pippen role and he's more suited to being his teams #1 playmaker, #2 scorer like pippen was for chicago

but people and lebron himself always wanted him to average 30 point triple doubles. and its brought him mostly disapointment

trying to do waaaaaaaay too much when he isnt even a great shooter when contested. and it shows in the mid range.

he also held down his HOF team mates in the past doing this

if lebron did this during 2011. they win the title.

if lebron did this during 2014. they win the title.

he should have helped wade and bosh the way he is with erving right now

and he should sacrafice even more of his scoring to get kevin love going

lebron shooting should be the last option on the floor.

15ppg/10apg/7rpg would be a great average for him


LeBron actually DID do that in 2011.... He did what everyone is asking him to do nowaways (on ISH), you know, play off Wade, no lebron ball, and you even added "be a playmaker first then scorer".... All points to 2011, colossal disaster, and the same thing you criticise him for, you say here was correct....

[Cali Syndicate]

Teams are responsible for championships, not just one individual person. If MJ had gotten drafted to a shitty organization, he may have never even won a ring. Does that make him a worse player? I wouldn't think so

Not saying LeBron > Jordan, but looking at all time rankings and only basing it on ring count is extremely short sighted

MJ did get crafted to a shitty organization with a shitty owner.

[Prometheus]

this is what we've been asking lebron to do forever. we always said he should play the pippen role and he's more suited to being his teams #1 playmaker, #2 scorer like pippen was for chicago

but people and lebron himself always wanted him to average 30 point triple doubles. and its brought him mostly disapointment

trying to do waaaaaaaay too much when he isnt even a great shooter when contested. and it shows in the mid range.

he also held down his HOF team mates in the past doing this

if lebron did this during 2011. they win the title.

if lebron did this during 2014. they win the title.

he should have helped wade and bosh the way he is with erving right now

and he should sacrafice even more of his scoring to get kevin love going

lebron shooting should be the last option on the floor.

15ppg/10apg/7rpg would be a great average for him

I agree with most of this, however this actually IS what he tried to do in the 2011 Finals. He just sucked that series. They could have won it whether he played the first option or the distributor role, as long as he played well. he just sucked.

And there's nothing LeBron alone could have done for Miami to win in 2014. Miami was SEVERELY outplayed in literally every facet of the game. His teammates couldn't hit wide-open shots, no one could guard anyone, and Wade was missing layups and getting the ball literally taken right out of his hands by Danny Green.

Finally, change the 15 points to about 20-22 and you're pretty much on the money.

[Relinquish]

I know it is easy to explain. HE IS NOT better.

No matter what you tell yourself, just know that you will always be in denial.

[Bandito]

No matter what you tell yourself, just know that you will always be in denial.
And I am supposed to listen to an opinion of a retarded troll because?

[GrapeApe]

For all intents and purposes, LeBron HAS been a PG his entire career. He's always been his team's primary ball handler and playmaker, perhaps the lone exception being in 2011 when it was about 50/50 with him and Wade. He was never going to be a "pure" PG. He's a gifted passer but his scoring ability is too great for that role. If anything he gets criticized for being too unselfish at times.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Probably averaging 24/10/6 career averages

[Bandito]

So? You can still have people using other criterias than finals/winning. It's subjective. You can use any criteria you want. You may not agree with their opinion and their criterias, but truth is that an opinion can't be wrong.
So does that mean my opinion of you being dumb as a bucket of bolts is right? Good to know.

[ArbitraryWater]

So does that mean my opinion of you being dumb as a bucket of bolts is right? Good to know.

It means an opinion can't be right nor wrong.. It's an opinion.

However, one's hold more ground due to factual back-up (generally).

[bizil]

For all intents and purposes, LeBron HAS been a PG his entire career. He's always been his team's primary ball handler and playmaker, perhaps the lone exception being in 2011 when it was about 50/50 with him and Wade. He was never going to be a "pure" PG. He's a gifted passer but his scoring ability is too great for that role. If anything he gets criticized for being too unselfish at times.

I agree! As much as Lebron is compared to Magic (and rightfully so), I think Grant Hill is the closest comparison. Hill and Bron had Dr.J level athletic skills and can dominate scoring. BUT they thought pass first.

So for the best of both worlds, it was best to have them as a point forward. As opposed to having them play PG flat out. Or course both could do it, but I want Hill and Bron to dominate scoring in the open court with their great athletic skills.

I want them getting 26 points, 8 dimes, and 8 boards a night. I want them on the baseline and wing slashing in the halfcourt while creating for others. Magic was never a freak athlete like Bron. And Magic was arguably the greatest passer of all time and was a pure PG in terms of his mentality flat out.

Bron is such a dominant athlete and scorer that I want him being aggressive looking to score. If u put him at PG, he's a pass first player of course. Which means he would play more like Magic and get 23-10-8. I would rather have Bron getting 26-8-8.

[ILLsmak]

Agree wholeheartedly.

Why isn't Bill Russell the undisputed GOAT?

basically cuz the nba was in its infancy. That he's even mentioned in top 5 goes to show how much team domination means.

If Russell won the way he won in the 90s, then he would be GOAT probably in sports history.

-Smak

[Real Men Wear Green]

So? You can still have people using other criterias than finals/winning. It's subjective. You can use any criteria you want. You may not agree with their opinion and their criterias, but truth is that an opinion can't be wrong.
And of course that's completely wrong. There's a reason why rings are always discussed when people debate the all-time greats. You have to take into context how they got those rings but with 6 Finals MVP awards there's not much you can say about Jordan's.

[3ball]

Jordan's 24-game stretch at point guard at the end of the 1989 season included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games, which game him 15 triple doubles for the entire season, only 3 shy of Magic's record of 18.

Clearly, if Jordan would have played PG the entire season, he would have smashed Magic's record - he probably would have doubled it... Lebron could never do this... :confusedshrug: ... it's just another way we can deduce the extent of Jordan's superiority and the different dimension he was in.
.

[COnDEMnED]

Jordan>Magic>Everyone else in the top 10>Lebron.

[NZStreetBaller]

Kobe has a much better shot at a magic type career. But much like lebron he chose to persue the mj route

Kobe when he decides to pass is a greater passer then bro

[Prometheus]

Kobe has a much better shot at a magic type career. But much like lebron he chose to persue the mj route

Kobe when he decides to pass is a greater passer then bro

lol he's taller than bran when he decides to be too. how great is our gawd?