For those who have Kobe in their Top 10, who did you leave out?

[Westbrook0]

This seems to be the consensus top 10 players (in my order, though not necessarily the consensus order) to ever play the game. So just out of curiosity, for those of you who have Kobe in your top 10, which of these players did you leave out?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Bill Russell
7. Tim Duncan
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. LeBron James

[imnew09]

LOL

this thread deserves no reply

[PsychoBe]

This seems to be the consensus top 10 players (in my order, though not necessarily the consensus order) to ever play the game. So just out of curiosity, for those of you who have Kobe in your top 10, which of these players did you leave out?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Bill Russell
7. Tim Duncan
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. LeBron James

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

i think you know the answer.

[Mr. Jabbar]

i left out lebald

[KungFuJoe]

Lebron James top 10? :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Hakeem.

Never seen a player get so much praise for his 94 & 95 seasons while completely ignoring how a prime Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round for 5 years straight.

[tpols]

Hakeem has no right. Similarly, Lebron has no argument thus far in his career.

[fpliii]

8th? Jesus ****ing christ is Hakeem underrated. Wow.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Lebron James top 10? :roll:

why not? to each their own

its not like he's saying his opinion is right or not... he's just showing you is

[T_L_P]

Replace Kobe with Wilt. At this point he deserves to be ahead of LeBron also.

[tpols]

8th? Jesus ****ing christ is Hakeem underrated. Wow.

thats his standard ranking.. actually a bit better.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kobe is clearly worse than all 10 of those players. He has no case for top 10. Top 10-20 range is where he belongs.

[Marchesk]

What exactly is the criteria for who gets into the top 10? Hakeem seems to almost always end up there, but did he have a better career than Oscar, Dr J, or Moses Malone?

[Kvnzhangyay]

8th? Jesus ****ing christ is Hakeem underrated. Wow.

Problem with hakeem is that his prime was relatively short

[fpliii]

thats his standard ranking.. actually a bit better.
I know, but I think people worry too much about accolades, and things out of his control (poor teammates in general, Sampson going down, etc.).

One of the best two players I've seen live (started watching Shaq's rookie year, he's the other). Possibly the best defensive player in that span (him or KG), and could score as well as anybody, anywhere inside the 3pt line.

Not trying to force my view on others, it's just shocking when people have him listed as a fringe top 10 player, or even outside of their lists entirely. Doesn't seem like revisionist history either. Annual publications from the time (Zander Hollander's books, Rick Barry's scouting bibles, Street and Smith's publications, etc.), all regularly called him the best center in the game, well before his 92-93, 93-94, 94-95 seasons. Dude was a monster.

[tpols]

I know, but I think people worry too much about accolades, and things out of his control (poor teammates in general, Sampson going down, etc.).

One of the best two players I've seen live (started watching Shaq's rookie year, he's the other). Possibly the best defensive player in that span (him or KG), and could score as well as anybody, anywhere inside the 3pt line.

Not trying to force my view on others, it's just shocking when people have him listed as a fringe top 10 player, or even outside of their lists entirely. Doesn't seem like revisionist history either. Annual publications from the time (Zander Hollander's books, Rick Barry's scouting bibles, Street and Smith's publications, etc.), all regularly called him the best center in the game, well before his 92-93, 93-94, 94-95 seasons. Dude was a monster.

Id argue by your own criteria Dr. J should be a top 10 player.. but hes rarely ever mentioned.

[fpliii]

Problem with hakeem is that his prime was relatively short
He was arguably in his prime from when he came into the league. Dude played against Moses every day during his summers in college. Just because his teams sucked (due to injuries, drugs, etc.), doesn't mean he wasn't one of the dominant players in the league.

Definitely was an improved scorer during his b2b championship years and the season immediately preceding them (worked on his moves a ton during Summer 92), don't get me wrong. Before then, he relied on his spin moves a ton.

[SouBeachTalents]

Id argue by your own criteria Dr. J should be a top 10 player.. but hes rarely ever mentioned.

Well that all depends on how they'd feel about his ABA accolades

[fpliii]

Id argue by your own criteria Dr. J should be a top 10 player.. but hes rarely ever mentioned.
Possibly, but he's a huge question mark because during his first few seasons post-merger, he struggled due to teammates who were black holes, and the lack of spacing in the NBA (making it difficult to drive in the half court). Underrated defender, but Hakeem was close to GOAT level on that end, in addition to being a reliable scorer against set defenses.

[kennethgriffin]

i have it

#1 Kareem
#2 Jordan
#3 Russell
#4 Wilt
#5 Kobe
#6 Duncan
#7 Magic
#8 Bird
#9 Shaq
#10 Hakeem

[oarabbus]

Id argue by your own criteria Dr. J should be a top 10 player.. but hes rarely ever mentioned.


Havlicek, Wade, maybe even Pippen > Dr J

[Collie]

Ignoring Lebron - Hakeem, Shaq and Kobe are frequently the guys who are probably least secure in the top 10 (with each of them rotating for the 8-11 positions. Duncan used to be on the bubble as well, but his recent successes seem to have him solidly cemented in the top 10.

Lebron throws another wrench in the works, since his resume (4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 rings) definitely put him in the top 10 category. But there doesn't seem to be a consensus where he should be ranked. I've seen him as high as 5 or as low as 15 in some personal rankings

[oarabbus]

Ignoring Lebron - Hakeem, Shaq and Kobe are frequently the guys who are probably least secure in the top 10 (with each of them rotating for the 8-11 positions. Duncan used to be on the bubble as well, but his recent successes seem to have him solidly cemented in the top 10.

Lebron throws another wrench in the works, since his resume (4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 rings) definitely put him in the top 10 category. But there doesn't seem to be a consensus where he should be ranked. I've seen him as high as 5 or as low as 15 in some personal rankings


No way you can legitimately have Bran in the top 5 as an objective basketball fan. I would love to hear from any non Branstans who believe that is the case.

[Collie]

No way you can legitimately have Bran in the top 5 as an objective basketball fan. I would love to hear from any non Branstans who believe that is the case.

Yeah that was from a list that I saw in another forum from a homer, but like I said, it's the most extreme example.

[russwest0]

Le2for5.

[Kvnzhangyay]

No way you can legitimately have Bran in the top 5 as an objective basketball fan. I would love to hear from any non Branstans who believe that is the case.

Thats why the highest is 5...

The highest I can see Lebron be put in rn is 7, and that has a VERY weak argument...

lebron has replaced Hakemm @ number 9 for me currently

[Genaro]

Obviously Lebron but I rank Kobe above Duncan, Russel(who isn't on my list) and Shaq as well

[SouBeachTalents]

Ignoring Lebron - Hakeem, Shaq and Kobe are frequently the guys who are probably least secure in the top 10 (with each of them rotating for the 8-11 positions. Duncan used to be on the bubble as well, but his recent successes seem to have him solidly cemented in the top 10.

Lebron throws another wrench in the works, since his resume (4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 rings) definitely put him in the top 10 category. But there doesn't seem to be a consensus where he should be ranked. I've seen him as high as 5 or as low as 15 in some personal rankings

Wilt's ranking is also sporadic, some people think he's the GOAT, and I've seen him in the top 5, top 10, and off the list completely

[tpols]

Havlicek, Wade, maybe even Pippen > Dr J

Out your mind.

He was the first MJ.. competing in an era of magic/KAJ/Bird.. just thrown in.

[tpols]

Well that all depends on how they'd feel about his ABA accolades

should be considered highly too.. lots of aba players that went on to play very well in the nba. And J proved his worth outside that league post prime.

[PsychoBe]

jordan should always be #1.

kareem > magic, bird, wilt, russell, if we can agree on that based on total points, legendary longevity, consistent play, most mvps, and etc.

that leaves russell for 3rd.

by acclamation, magic > bird, wilt, hakeem, shaq, kobe, etc. + off-court impact and "saving" the game of basketball. if we can agree on that then he should be 4.

bird > hakeem, kobe, shaq, duncan, etc, due to his off-court impact and "saving" the game, may have less rings but was a legendary shooter and the standard for the forward position. if we agree on that then he's 5.

wilt > hakeem, kobe, shaq, duncan, etc, due to his legendary stats and dominance. lacks the rings but scoring 100 points and having 50ppg/25rbg seasons are just ridiculous. it can't be quantified the amount of work that went into that. that makes him 6.

kobe > shaq, duncan, hakeem, voted as "player of the decade" for the 2000's, easily has the most longevity out of any guard/high-octane perimeter player of his era. won more rings without shaq then shaq won without him, always went completely ballistic against the duncan-lead spurs in every playoff series save for 03'. much more accolades than hakeem. that leaves him 7.

shaq > duncan, hakeem, more points, legendary dominance for his era, has less rings than duncan and less longevity but the way he was able to almost completely ransack his competition on a consistent basis makes up for it. it's arguable but that makes him 8.

duncan > hakeem, most blocked shots in nba playoffs history. more rings, more accolades, longevity for a big-man is second only to kareem. had a legendary 03' post-season run, his rookie year put the team on his back and ripped the suns a new one in the post-season having mike breen going into a seizure. kinda close but that puts him 9.

hakeem. he changed everything. was the teams's primary scorer (most points) defender, (dpoy) and a great passer from the post. could score by facing you up, shoot the jumper, and from the post. attacked bigs from off the dribble like a guard would and had great length and athleticism. what he was asked to do for his team was nearly impossible, and he did it all with a gracious smile. that makes him 10.

feel free to disagree but you'll find it hard to.

[T_L_P]

jordan should always be #1.

kareem > magic, bird, wilt, russell, if we can agree on that based on total points, legendary longevity, consistent play, most mvps, and etc.

that leaves russell for 3rd.

by acclamation, magic > bird, wilt, hakeem, shaq, kobe, etc. + off-court impact and "saving" the game of basketball. if we can agree on that then he should be 4.

bird > hakeem, kobe, shaq, duncan, etc, due to his off-court impact and "saving" the game, may have less rings but was a legendary shooter and the standard for the forward position. if we agree on that then he's 5.

wilt > hakeem, kobe, shaq, duncan, etc, due to his legendary stats and dominance. lacks the rings but scoring 100 points and having 50ppg/25rbg seasons are just ridiculous. it can't be quantified the amount of work that went into that. that makes him 6.

kobe > shaq, duncan, hakeem, voted as "player of the decade" for the 2000's, easily has the most longevity out of any guard/high-octane perimeter player of his era. won more rings without shaq then shaq won without him, always went completely ballistic against the duncan-lead spurs in every playoff series save for 03'. much more accolades than hakeem. that leaves him 7.

shaq > duncan, hakeem, more points, legendary dominance for his era, has less rings than duncan and less longevity but the way he was able to almost completely ransack his competition on a consistent basis makes up for it. it's arguable but that makes him 8.

duncan > hakeem, most blocked shots in nba playoffs history. more rings, more accolades, longevity for a big-man is second only to kareem. had a legendary 03' post-season run, his rookie year put the team on his back and ripped the suns a new one in the post-season having mike breen going into a seizure. kinda close but that puts him 9.

hakeem. he changed everything. was the teams's primary scorer (most points) defender, (dpoy) and a great passer from the post. could score by facing you up, shoot the jumper, and from the post. attacked bigs from off the dribble like a guard would and had great length and athleticism. what he was asked to do for his team was nearly impossible, and he did it all with a gracious smile. that makes him 10.

feel free to disagree but you'll find it hard to.

Duncan/Shaq/Kobe series breakdowns:

99:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Shaq
Best player: Duncan

01:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Kobe
Best player: Kobe

02:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Kobe
Best player: Duncan/Kobe tie (Kobe was very clutch but Duncan averaged 29/17/5/4 on better efficiency, he just had the worst team of his career)

03:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Shaq
Best player: Duncan

04:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Shaq
Best player: Shaq

08:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Kobe
Best player: Kobe

Kobe went ballistic in 01 and 08. He was bad in 99 and mediocre in 03, great in 02 (though I don't know about ballistic), and the same goes for 04.

I'd like to see a stronger case for Kobe > Duncan. You basically broke it down with a TNT fan poll (which was done right after Kobe won a ring). ESPN viewers recently voted Duncan > Kobe. Doesn't really make it true.

Not saying you're wrong, I just think more needs to be said. :cheers:

[Lebron23]

Once Lebron wins his 3rd finals MVp, and another regular season MVP. He has a good case for being top 5 all time. 3x finals MVP, 3x NBA Champion, 5x NBA MVP, 1x NBA Scoring Champion, and 3x playoffs scoring champion.

[Lebron23]

Hakeem is out of the top 10 lists. Lebron and Kobe are 9th and 10th.

[Jlamb47]

Jordan
Kareem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Lebron

[iamgine]

Kobe has never been the top player by impact in the league. He's always been behind Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Lebron. He got longevity but I don't value longevity that much.

[Gotterdammerung]

My Pantheon, as of 2014:

1. Wilt Chamberlain. The NBA record book should be renamed.
2. Michael Jordan. The consensus greatest ever.
3. Bill Russell. The greatest winner.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The most durable ever.
5. Magic Johnson. The greatest teammate.
6. Larry Bird. The Greatest White Hope.
7. Julius Erving. The Best open-court player ever.
8. Jerry West. Most unstoppable jumper
9. Oscar Robertson. Most fundamentally sound ever.
10. Hakeem Olajuwon. Inside & outside, the best center ever.


11. Tim Duncan. Best Power Forward ever.
12. Shaquille O'Neal. Most Dominant Ever.
13. Kobe Bryant. Greatest impersonator.
14. LeBron James. Modern-day Wilt Chamberlain
15. Moses Malone. Most rugged rebounder ever.
16. Elgin Baylor. Man of one thousand moves.
17. John Havlicek. Most inexhaustible ever.
18. Bob Pettit. Original Fundamental.
19. Charles Barkley. Greatest Mouth.
20. Karl Malone. Greatest running bigman ever.
21. Dirk Nowitzki. Most unstoppable fallaway.
22. Kevin Garnett. Most versatile bigman ever.
23. Isiah Thomas. Greatest small man.
24. Scottie Pippen. Greatest Sidekick.
25. Rick Barry. Greatest ego.
26. David Robinson. Greatest specimen.
:cheers:

[Kvnzhangyay]

My Pantheon, as of 2014:

1. Wilt Chamberlain. The NBA record book should be renamed.
2. Michael Jordan. The consensus greatest ever.
3. Bill Russell. The greatest winner.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The most durable ever.
5. Magic Johnson. The greatest teammate.
6. Larry Bird. The Greatest White Hope.
7. Julius Erving. The Best open-court player ever.
8. Jerry West. Most unstoppable jumper
9. Oscar Robertson. Most fundamentally sound ever.
10. Hakeem Olajuwon. Inside & outside, the best center ever.


11. Tim Duncan. Best Power Forward ever.
12. Shaquille O'Neal. Most Dominant Ever.
13. Kobe Bryant. Greatest impersonator.
14. LeBron James. Modern-day Wilt Chamberlain
15. Moses Malone. Most rugged rebounder ever.
16. Elgin Baylor. Man of one thousand moves.
17. John Havlicek. Most inexhaustible ever.
18. Bob Pettit. Original Fundamental.
19. Charles Barkley. Greatest Mouth.
20. Karl Malone. Greatest running bigman ever.
21. Dirk Nowitzki. Most unstoppable fallaway.
22. Kevin Garnett. Most versatile bigman ever.
23. Isiah Thomas. Greatest small man.
24. Scottie Pippen. Greatest Sidekick.
25. Rick Barry. Greatest ego.
26. David Robinson. Greatest specimen.
:cheers:

Julius Erving? Jerry West? Definetely do not belong in the top 10

Oscar Robertston is slightly arguable but not really anymore...

[Marchesk]

My Pantheon, as of 2014:
1. Wilt Chamberlain. The NBA record book should be renamed.
2. Michael Jordan. The consensus greatest ever.
3. Bill Russell. The greatest winner.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The most durable ever.
5. Magic Johnson. The greatest teammate.
6. Larry Bird. The Greatest White Hope.
7. Julius Erving. The Best open-court player ever.
8. Jerry West. Most unstoppable jumper
9. Oscar Robertson. Most fundamentally sound ever.
10. Hakeem Olajuwon. Inside & outside, the best center ever.
:

Wow, that's a different top 10 than you usually see on here! Refreshing.

[Gotterdammerung]

Julius Erving? Jerry West? Definetely do not belong in the top 10

Oscar Robertston is slightly arguable but not really anymore...

I'd like to hear your reasons. :pimp:

I find it hard to rank guys in the top 10 unless their careers are over, and put in the right context.

[Gotterdammerung]

Wow, that's a different top 10 than you usually see on here! Refreshing.

Thanks, I go by my research and personal eyewitness test, as opposed to the consensus or media driven narratives.
:hammerhead:

[fpliii]

Thanks, I go by my research and personal eyewitness test, as opposed to the consensus or media driven narratives.
:hammerhead:
:applause:

I also have a very unusual list (well don't really have one, but when I attempt to put one together mine looks very, very different than all others I have seen), so I can appreciate thinking outside the box.

[pauk]

Based on amount of overall accolades/awards (trophies.... rings, mvps, fmvps, etc.)

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. LeBron James
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Wilt Chamberlain

Based on amount of overall talent/skill: (productions, domination, stats etc.)

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Michael Jordan
4. LeBron James
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Larry Bird
7. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant/Elgin Baylor

OVERALL:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. LeBron James
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Tim Duncan/Hakeem Olajuwon

[Gotterdammerung]

:applause:

I also have a very unusual list (well don't really have one, but when I attempt to put one together mine looks very, very different than all others I have seen), so I can appreciate thinking outside the box.
I'd like to see it, preferrably in your own thread.

[Jlamb47]

Based on amount of overall accolades/awards (trophies.... rings, mvps, fmvps, etc.)

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. LeBron James
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Wilt Chamberlain

Based on amount of overall talent/skill: (productions, domination, stats etc.)

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Michael Jordan
4. LeBron James
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Larry Bird
7. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant/Elgin Baylor

OVERALL:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. LeBron James
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Tim Duncan/Hakeem Olajuwon

You got lebron > Kobe on both list??
When we speak of skill Kobe > Lebron
when we speak of rings 5>2
rings is the biggest accomplishment for players

[pauk]

You got lebron > Kobe on both list??
When we speak of skill Kobe > Lebron
when we speak of rings 5>2

Lebron has just a tad more of the most significant/notable player awards (3 more mvps and tied with fmvps), the 3 sidekick rings does not help Kobe here enough. While at the same has showed to possess better allround/overall talent & skill on both ends as he has been productive & more dominant and certainly had a better peak....


rings is the biggest accomplishment for players

No, its the journey/context which is the most important, the championship run itself....... context my friend...

Kobe has only 2 championships (10-11) which can be compared to as being as significant as Lebrons both 2.... why? Because they came by way of leading a team to the promise land as the best player, THE MAN of the team.... hence resulting in FMVP aswell....

Kobe's first 3 championships are not meaningless, but are nowhere close to being as significant to his career/legacy as those last 2..... and those 3 first rings with his 1 mvp is not enough to overcome Lebrons 4 MVPs & 2 FMVPs and the peak/talent he has shown to be better than Kobe........

This is why we cant just throw in the John Havlicek's in the top 10 (Kobe had 3 such championship runs)..... Kobe wouldnt be in top 10 if it wasnt for his last 2 Championship runs....

[fpliii]

I'd like to see it, preferrably in your own thread.
I'll send it to you by PM. :D Clear some space in your box (3316 characters, so it's 2 messages long). When I have more time to watch more tape, and can improve it a bit, I'll start a thread for it. :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

Never seen a player get so much praise for his 94 & 95 seasons while completely ignoring how a prime Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round for 5 years straight.

When you put up 38/17 3 blocks, and 2 steals a game on 57% shooting people dont tend to blame you for the L.

Hakeem had elimination game losses of 50/25 with 6 blocks, 32/14/6 blocks, 23/17/9/3/2, 40/15/3, 21/17/4/3...

And 2 of those are vs the Showtime Lakers who won 63 and 58 games those years.

What exactly is he supposed to do?

How is it more telling that Hakeem loses(while balling) in the first round with subpar teams than that he took his team past the 62 win Lakers and to game 6 vs arguably the best team of all time in the finals in his second season?

He put up 19/12 with 6 blocks and 3 steals a game in his worst series before age 35.

He was putting up 25/14 with 5 blocks and 2 steals a game for entire seasons just getting some of his teams into the playoffs.

Judging Hakeem by not winning when he shouldnt just isnt rational.

He won 2 rings he probably shouldnt have.....

[ArbitraryWater]

Kblaze do you keep a "list" ?

And if, what is it? Where's Kobe?

[kennethgriffin]

Kblaze do you keep a "list" ?

And if, what is it? Where's Kobe?

his list is a little different


http://i59.tinypic.com/260wdpl.gif

http://i57.tinypic.com/168idjk.gif

http://i60.tinypic.com/el9puc.jpg

[kennethgriffin]

Lebron has just a tad more of the most significant/notable player awards (3 more mvps and tied with fmvps), the 3 sidekick rings does not help Kobe here enough. While at the same has showed to possess better allround/overall talent & skill on both ends as he has been productive & more dominant and certainly had a better peak....



No, its the journey/context which is the most important, the championship run itself....... context my friend...

Kobe has only 2 championships (10-11) which can be compared to as being as significant as Lebrons both 2.... why? Because they came by way of leading a team to the promise land as the best player, THE MAN of the team.... hence resulting in FMVP aswell....

Kobe's first 3 championships are not meaningless, but are nowhere close to being as significant to his career/legacy as those last 2..... and those 3 first rings with his 1 mvp is not enough to overcome Lebrons 4 MVPs & 2 FMVPs and the peak/talent he has shown to be better than Kobe........

This is why we cant just throw in the John Havlicek's in the top 10 (Kobe had 3 such championship runs)..... Kobe wouldnt be in top 10 if it wasnt for his last 2 Championship runs....


honestly. you shouldnt be a mod

the general consensus is kobe over lebron all time. on both message boards i visit. the overall vote is kobe over lebron on the all time lists that were done this year.

then the overall fan vote is also in favor of kobe

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players

then the player/coach people in the nba have kobe majority over lebron

and even lebron himself was quoted saying kobes probably top 5 ( and lebron didnt include himself on mount rushmore )

meaning lebron ranks kobe over himself

thats 100% in favor of kobe except for die hard ball sucking bron babies

and why on earth should one of those people be made a moderator of a site like this?

but it does explain your bannings of me over 1000 different times while you let lebron trolls run wild

get a grip bro

[Gotterdammerung]

I'll send it to you by PM. :D Clear some space in your box (3316 characters, so it's 2 messages long). When I have more time to watch more tape, and can improve it a bit, I'll start a thread for it. :cheers:
Done and done. I'll expand on my list with in depth rationalizations in your upcoming list.

[kennethgriffin]

My Pantheon, as of 2014:

1. Wilt Chamberlain. The NBA record book should be renamed.
2. Michael Jordan. The consensus greatest ever.
3. Bill Russell. The greatest winner.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The most durable ever.
5. Magic Johnson. The greatest teammate.
6. Larry Bird. The Greatest White Hope.
7. Julius Erving. The Best open-court player ever.
8. Jerry West. Most unstoppable jumper
9. Oscar Robertson. Most fundamentally sound ever.
10. Hakeem Olajuwon. Inside & outside, the best center ever.


11. Tim Duncan. Best Power Forward ever.
12. Shaquille O'Neal. Most Dominant Ever.
13. Kobe Bryant. Greatest impersonator.
14. LeBron James. Modern-day Wilt Chamberlain
15. Moses Malone. Most rugged rebounder ever.
16. Elgin Baylor. Man of one thousand moves.
17. John Havlicek. Most inexhaustible ever.
18. Bob Pettit. Original Fundamental.
19. Charles Barkley. Greatest Mouth.
20. Karl Malone. Greatest running bigman ever.
21. Dirk Nowitzki. Most unstoppable fallaway.
22. Kevin Garnett. Most versatile bigman ever.
23. Isiah Thomas. Greatest small man.
24. Scottie Pippen. Greatest Sidekick.
25. Rick Barry. Greatest ego.
26. David Robinson. Greatest specimen.
:cheers:

this is a good list if it was made in 2003 or 2004 ( minus lebron/dirk )


today theres no excuse for oscar/west/erving being top 10

[kennethgriffin]

Duncan/Shaq/Kobe series breakdowns:

99:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Shaq
Best player: Duncan

01:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Kobe
Best player: Kobe

02:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Kobe
Best player: Duncan/Kobe tie (Kobe was very clutch but Duncan averaged 29/17/5/4 on better efficiency, he just had the worst team of his career)

03:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Shaq
Best player: Duncan

04:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Shaq
Best player: Shaq

08:

Best Spur: Duncan
Best Laker: Kobe
Best player: Kobe

Kobe went ballistic in 01 and 08. He was bad in 99 and mediocre in 03, great in 02 (though I don't know about ballistic), and the same goes for 04.

I'd like to see a stronger case for Kobe > Duncan. You basically broke it down with a TNT fan poll (which was done right after Kobe won a ring). ESPN viewers recently voted Duncan > Kobe. Doesn't really make it true.

Not saying you're wrong, I just think more needs to be said. :cheers:


kobe had by far the better season than shaq in 2003.

only an idiot would forget that shaq missed a ton of games and kobe went on a 40ppg run for a month. then had another month of 40+ to end the season. and got 12+ threes in a game while averaging 30/7/6 on the season

tlp must be like 15 years old. which makes me wonder why he likes duncan.

[Kblaze8855]

honestly. you shouldnt be a mod

the general consensus is kobe over lebron all time. on both message boards i visit. the overall vote is kobe over lebron on the all time lists that were done this year.

then the overall fan vote is also in favor of kobe

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players

then the player/coach people in the nba have kobe majority over lebron

and even lebron himself was quoted saying kobes probably top 5 ( and lebron didnt include himself on mount rushmore )

meaning lebron ranks kobe over himself

thats 100% in favor of kobe except for die hard ball sucking bron babies

and why on earth should one of those people be made a moderator of a site like this?

but it does explain your bannings of me over 1000 different times while you let lebron trolls run wild

get a grip bro

Pauk is a mod?

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze do you keep a "list" ?

And if, what is it? Where's Kobe?

I dont really have a list. There are some people I wouldnt be upset if someone thought were the greatest of all time. Thats

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic

Not in any order.

Then Shaq, Duncan, West, Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron, Doctor J, Oscar, Baylor, and maybe even Moses I wouldnt get into a big argument over in any order from 6-16. And I might let Hondo and Pettit in there too.

Breaking those guys up always comes down to who the person talking is trying to prop up. There is nothing id call concrete to kick any of them out.

If you had Kobe 7th I wouldnt start an argument over it...and I wouldnt care if hes 13th.

There is a case to be made.

If its halfway reasonable I dont care what number any of them are given.

[Anaximandro1]

Jordan/Russell/Wilt/Kareem

Duncan/Shaq/Magic/Bird

LeBron/Hakeem


Kobe doesn't belong in any discussion with top 10 players.

eye test and stats have different drawbacks. The thing is, Kobe doesn't seem to pass those tests ...

He won five titles after playing with big men capable of drawing double teams, scoring obscene amounts of points, rebounds and blocks.

During the Lakers championship runs (2000,01,02,09,10), Shaq/Gasol scored 25 percent of his team's points, grabbed 30 percent of Lakers' rebounds and contributed about 40 percent to blocked shots.

Kobe became the first option in 2002, after the Lakers won their third straight championship. Since then, the Spurs won four titles, the Heat won three while Kobe's Lakers won two.

The LA Lakers have only missed the playoffs four times since 1976 ... Kobe was the team leader in three of them.

He has never won a playoff series without Shaq/Gasol ... it's common sense. And stats keep telling the same story.

For example, Shaq/Gasol generated more offensive win shares than Kobe during the championship runs.

Win Shares has undeniable flaws, sure, but Kobe is a very unique case to ATG...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KOT3WQ2FJ7w/VIdQ3YHxrXI/AAAAAAAADjM/VNjAuxGTuBE/s1600/8.jpg

Kobe had innumerable poor performances in the finals ... closer to Pippen than Jordan.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b_K4Zy48UIM/VIdQ3X63iuI/AAAAAAAADjQ/9eOkKNmW4Hs/s1600/9.jpg

common sense, PER, Win Shares, ORtg/DRtg, FG%, NBA finals performance ... it doesn't matter. Everything points right now in the same direction.

[G0ATbe]

1. LORDbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone

[KirbyPls]

Kobe doesn't belong in any discussion with top 10 players.

eye test and stats have different drawbacks. The thing is, Kobe doesn't seem to pass those tests ...

He won five titles after playing with big men capable of drawing double teams, scoring obscene amounts of points, rebounds and blocks.

During the Lakers championship runs (2000,01,02,09,10), Shaq/Gasol scored 25 percent of his team's points, grabbed 30 percent of Lakers' rebounds and contributed about 40 percent to blocked shots.

Kobe became the first option in 2002, after the Lakers won their third straight championship. Since then, the Spurs won four titles, the Heat won three while Kobe's Lakers won two.

The LA Lakers have only missed the playoffs four times since 1976 ... Kobe was the team leader in three of them.

He has never won a playoff series without Shaq/Gasol ... it's common sense. And stats keep telling the same story.

For example, Shaq/Gasol generated more offensive win shares than Kobe during the championship runs.

Win Shares has undeniable flaws, sure, but Kobe is a very unique case to ATG...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KOT3WQ2FJ7w/VIdQ3YHxrXI/AAAAAAAADjM/VNjAuxGTuBE/s1600/8.jpg

Kobe had innumerable poor performances in the finals ... closer to Pippen than Jordan.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b_K4Zy48UIM/VIdQ3X63iuI/AAAAAAAADjQ/9eOkKNmW4Hs/s1600/9.jpg

common sense, PER, Win Shares, ORtg/DRtg, FG%, NBA finals performance ... it doesn't matter. Everything points right now in the same direction.

Rekt. :lebroncry: :yaohappy:

[PsychoBe]

Kobe doesn't belong in any discussion with top 10 players.

eye test and stats have different drawbacks. The thing is, Kobe doesn't seem to pass those tests ...

He won five titles after playing with big men capable of drawing double teams, scoring obscene amounts of points, rebounds and blocks.

During the Lakers championship runs (2000,01,02,09,10), Shaq/Gasol scored 25 percent of his team's points, grabbed 30 percent of Lakers' rebounds and contributed about 40 percent to blocked shots.

Kobe became the first option in 2002, after the Lakers won their third straight championship. Since then, the Spurs won four titles, the Heat won three while Kobe's Lakers won two.

The LA Lakers have only missed the playoffs four times since 1976 ... Kobe was the team leader in three of them.

He has never won a playoff series without Shaq/Gasol ... it's common sense. And stats keep telling the same story.

For example, Shaq/Gasol generated more offensive win shares than Kobe during the championship runs.

Win Shares has undeniable flaws, sure, but Kobe is a very unique case to ATG...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KOT3WQ2FJ7w/VIdQ3YHxrXI/AAAAAAAADjM/VNjAuxGTuBE/s1600/8.jpg

Kobe had innumerable poor performances in the finals ... closer to Pippen than Jordan.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b_K4Zy48UIM/VIdQ3X63iuI/AAAAAAAADjQ/9eOkKNmW4Hs/s1600/9.jpg

common sense, PER, Win Shares, ORtg/DRtg, FG%, NBA finals performance ... it doesn't matter. Everything points right now in the same direction.

gasol won zero playoff games before kobe.

kobe more won rings without shaq then shaq won without kobe.

kobe is tied with magic in putting up the most banners in lakers franchise history.

kobe is one of two players to average 30/5/5 in a finals series, the other being jordan.

next :oldlol:

[riseagainst]

kobe is one of two players to average 30/5/5 in a finals series, the other being jordan.


:eek:

:bowdown:
:bowdown:
:bowdown:

[bizil]

To be frank, u could argue Kobe as the 5th GOAT. A GOAT top five could easily go:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Kobe

Russell has all those rings don't get me wrong. And sure I wouldn't argue against him being in the top five. I'M NO FOOL! lol But Kobe's solo accolades, his numbers, longevity being great, and five rings EASILY warrants him being rated as high as five GOAT wise. I think the one thing that does hurt Kobe in a sense is the fact that he really didn't revolutionize his position. He brought the new age And 1 mentality to MJ's template.

So he added some shit for sure. But the guys like MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, and Duncan revolutionized their positions flat out. But with that said, u still can't ignore his EPIC resume!

[HOoopCityJones]

To be frank, u could argue Kobe as the 5th GOAT. A GOAT top five could easily go:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Kobe

Russell has all those rings don't get me wrong. And sure I wouldn't argue him being in the top five. I'M NO FOOL! lol But Kobe's solo accolades, his numbers, longevity being great, and five rings EASILY warrants him being rated as high as five GOAT wise. I think the one thing that does hurt Kobe in a sense is the fact that he really didn't revolutionize his position. He brought the new age And 1 mentality to MJ's template.

So he added some shit for sure. But the guys like MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, and Duncan revolutionized their positions flat out. But with that said, u still can't ignore his EPIC resume!

Kobe brings the Work Ethic.


any of these young new cats wanna last half as long they better learn a thing or two from Kob before he goes. A. Davis has admitted as much.

[T_L_P]

kobe had by far the better season than shaq in 2003.

only an idiot would forget that shaq missed a ton of games and kobe went on a 40ppg run for a month. then had another month of 40+ to end the season. and got 12+ threes in a game while averaging 30/7/6 on the season

tlp must be like 15 years old. which makes me wonder why he likes duncan.

I'm talking about the individual Playoff series, bro.

Of course Kobe had the better season. Though Shaq was better in the Playoffs.

Your reading comprehension. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

To be frank, u could argue Kobe as the 5th GOAT. A GOAT top five could easily go:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Kobe

Russell has all those rings don't get me wrong. And sure I wouldn't argue him being in the top five. I'M NO FOOL! lol But Kobe's solo accolades, his numbers, longevity being great, and five rings EASILY warrants him being rated as high as five GOAT wise. I think the one thing that does hurt Kobe in a sense is the fact that he really didn't revolutionize his position. He brought the new age And 1 mentality to MJ's template.

So he added some shit for sure. But the guys like MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, and Duncan revolutionized their positions flat out. But with that said, u still can't ignore his EPIC resume!

What is the argument (broadly) that puts Kobe over Duncan at this point?

Duncan has better longevity
Duncan has been more durable (less injuries)
Duncan has won as much
Duncan has more MVP's
Duncan has more finals MVP's
Duncan has better stats overall
Duncan has better advanced metrics
Duncan's teams have a higher win percentage
Duncan is a better teammate on and off the floor

I'm really confused how people still rank Kobe over Duncan...what is the argument?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What is the argument (broadly) that puts Kobe over Duncan at this point?

Duncan has better longevity
Duncan has been more durable (less injuries)
Duncan has won as much
Duncan has more MVP's
Duncan has more finals MVP's
Duncan has better stats overall
Duncan has better advanced metrics
Duncan's teams have a higher win percentage
Duncan is a better teammate on and off the floor

I'm really confused how people still rank Kobe over Duncan...what is the argument?

2 gold medals vs 1 bronze
1 HOF teammate per title team vs Duncan's obscenely stacked teams
Head to head playoff record
Average coaching talent per year

[DMAVS41]

2 gold medals vs 1 bronze
1 HOF teammate per title team vs Duncan's obscenely stacked teams
Head to head playoff record
Average coaching talent per year

So some really really really shitty arguments...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So some really really really shitty arguments...

Maybe if you hate America. :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

2 gold medals vs 1 bronze
1 HOF teammate per title team vs Duncan's obscenely stacked teams
Head to head playoff record
Average coaching talent per year

Horribly conceived way of judging quality of teams.

In 03 Duncan had 3 HoF teammates (Robinson, Parker, Manu). In 01 Kobe had just one (Shaq). So, by your logic, Duncan had three times more help? You also fail to differentiate between how good those Hall of Famers were, and where they were in their careers.

Shaq in 01: 30.4 PPG / 15.4 RPG / 3.2 APG

Robinson, Parker and Manu in 03: 31.9 PPG / 13 RPG / 7.3 APG

Prime Shaq almost outproduced 3 HoFers on his own. Yet according to you he's just any old "Hall of Fame teammate".

--

Why don't we judge those HoF teammates in a more sensible manner?

Duncan didn't have an All-NBA teammate in 99, 03, 05 or 07 (b.b.but Hall of Famers!!!). Kobe never won a title without one.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Horribly conceived way of judging quality of teams.

In 03 Duncan had 3 HoF teammates (Robinson, Parker, Manu). In 01 Kobe had just one (Shaq). So, by your logic, Duncan had three times more help? You also fail to differentiate between how good those Hall of Famers were, and where they were in their careers.

Shaq in 01: 30.4 PPG / 15.4 RPG / 3.2 APG

Robinson, Parker and Manu in 03: 31.9 PPG / 13 RPG / 7.3 APG

Prime Shaq almost outproduced 3 HoFers on his own. Yet according to you he's just any old "Hall of Fame teammate".

--

Why don't we judge those HoF teammates.

Duncan didn't have an All-NBA teammate in 99, 03, 05 or 07. Kobe never won without one.

How many Hall of Famers is Shaq worth?

How many Hall of Famers is Pau worth?

Note Pau is currently 19th in HOF probability among active players (55.6%)... Tony Parker is 15th (93.9%)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

3 Shaqs plus 2 Paus (a fringe candidate based on his NBA play) divided by 5 = an average HOFer

:confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

Horribly conceived way of judging quality of teams.

In 03 Duncan had 3 HoF teammates (Robinson, Parker, Manu). In 01 Kobe had just one (Shaq). So, by your logic, Duncan had three times more help? You also fail to differentiate between how good those Hall of Famers were, and where they were in their careers.

Shaq in 01: 30.4 PPG / 15.4 RPG / 3.2 APG

Robinson, Parker and Manu in 03: 31.9 PPG / 13 RPG / 7.3 APG

Prime Shaq almost outproduced 3 HoFers on his own. Yet according to you he's just any old "Hall of Fame teammate".

--

Why don't we judge those HoF teammates in a more sensible manner?

Duncan didn't have an All-NBA teammate in 99, 03, 05 or 07 (b.b.but Hall of Famers!!!). Kobe never won a title without one.

:applause: :cheers:

[MastaKilla]

Jordan
KAJ
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Russell
Wilt

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Horribly conceived way of judging quality of teams.

In 03 Duncan had 3 HoF teammates (Robinson, Parker, Manu). In 01 Kobe had just one (Shaq). So, by your logic, Duncan had three times more help? You also fail to differentiate between how good those Hall of Famers were, and where they were in their careers.

Shaq in 01: 30.4 PPG / 15.4 RPG / 3.2 APG

Robinson, Parker and Manu in 03: 31.9 PPG / 13 RPG / 7.3 APG

Prime Shaq almost outproduced 3 HoFers on his own. Yet according to you he's just any old "Hall of Fame teammate".

--

Why don't we judge those HoF teammates in a more sensible manner?

Duncan didn't have an All-NBA teammate in 99, 03, 05 or 07 (b.b.but Hall of Famers!!!). Kobe never won a title without one.

Dat Ether.

:applause:

[bizil]

What is the argument (broadly) that puts Kobe over Duncan at this point?

Duncan has better longevity
Duncan has been more durable (less injuries)
Duncan has won as much
Duncan has more MVP's
Duncan has more finals MVP's
Duncan has better stats overall
Duncan has better advanced metrics
Duncan's teams have a higher win percentage
Duncan is a better teammate on and off the floor

I'm really confused how people still rank Kobe over Duncan...what is the argument?


Settle down!! I wouldn't argue against Duncan in the top five players either. Timmy for sure has a case as well. The thread was about Kobe so I was just stating Kobe has a case to be in the top five GOAT! I didn't DISS Duncan at all! And by the way, Timmy DOESN'T have better longevity than Kobe being a great player. But between Kobe and Tim, BOTH have a case to be in the top 5 GOAT.

[bizil]

I was going to say Hakeem but as a player Hakeem>> Tim Duncan.

Yep. Peak wise, I would take Dream over Tim. GOAT wise, I would give the edge to Duncan.

[T_L_P]

Yep. Peak wise, I would take Dream over Tim. GOAT wise, I would give the edge to Duncan.

And the same would apply for Kobe, right?

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe is top 5 all time.

[LAZERUSS]

8. Kobe
9. Lebron (and climbing)
10. Bird
11. Dr. J (including his ABA years)
12. Moses
13. Hakeem
14. Oscar
15. West

[SexSymbol]

This seems to be the consensus top 10 players (in my order, though not necessarily the consensus order) to ever play the game. So just out of curiosity, for those of you who have Kobe in your top 10, which of these players did you leave out?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Bill Russell
7. Tim Duncan
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. LeBron James
That's consensus? First time I've seen such an order, and the consensus is that Kobe's in the 7-10 range.
LeBron is not top 10 yet, Dr.J should be on this list too, ABA was just as good as the NBA.
Moses Malone is someone who tends to get underrated a lot, I think he's somewhere in the 11-15 range with West, LeBron, maybe havlicek, shit I don't know

[SexSymbol]

8. Kobe
9. Lebron (and climbing)
10. Bird
11. Dr. J (including his ABA years)
12. Moses
13. Hakeem
14. Oscar
15. West
Wait, what? Why would you have him so low if you're including his ABA years?

[andgar923]

Whether you rank Kobe in the top 5 or 15, Bron will be ahead of him.

Kobe is top 15, not top 10.

[LAZERUSS]

Wait, what? Why would you have him so low if you're including his ABA years?

Excellent point. To be honest, that group is so close, that I wouldn't argue interchanging any of them.

I have my "untouchable" Top-5...

Wilt
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russell

and then the next tier...

Shaq or Duncan (a peak Shaq, or a career Duncan)


and then those guys.

[T_L_P]

Hello Everyone. New here. But, I have been browsing the site for quite some time.

Anyway, here's my list:-

1. Michael Jordan.
2. Magic Johnson.
3. Bill Russell.
4. Larry Bird.
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
6. Wilt Chamberlain.
7. LeBron James.
8. Tim Duncan.
9. Kobe Bryant.
10. Shaquille O'Neal.

Sadly, Hakeem drops out even though he is my favourite center out of all I have seen. A true rockstar. But, he doesn't have the resume and legacy like someone like a Shaq or Kareem or Russell or Wilt or Tim D which hurts him, even though I feel he was possibly the best center out of all if we consider his impact both offensively and defensively.

If LeBron retired today his contributions on the court would not have been greater than Duncan's or Shaq's, imo.

Solid list other than that. :cheers:

[The Red Viper]

Hello Everyone. New here. But, I have been browsing the site for quite some time.

Anyway, Here's My Top-10:-

1. Michael Jordan.
2. Magic Johnson.
3. Bill Russell.
4. Larry Bird.
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
6. Wilt Chamberlain.
7. LeBron James.
8. Tim Duncan.
9. Kobe Bryant.
10. Shaquille O'Neal.

Sadly, Hakeem drops out even though he is my favourite center out of all I have seen. A true rockstar. But, he doesn't have the resume and legacy like someone like a Shaq or Kareem or Russell or Wilt or Tim D which hurts him, even though I feel he was possibly the best center out of all if we consider his impact both offensively and defensively.


The Next Five:-

11. Hakeem Olajuwon.
12. Oscar Robertson.
13. Jerry West.
14. Isiah Thomas.
15. Dr J.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hello Everyone. New here. But, I have been browsing the site for quite some time.

Anyway, Here's My Top-10:-

1. Michael Jordan.
2. Magic Johnson.
3. Bill Russell.
4. Larry Bird.
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
6. Wilt Chamberlain.
7. LeBron James.
8. Tim Duncan.
9. Kobe Bryant.
10. Shaquille O'Neal.

Sadly, Hakeem drops out even though he is my favourite center out of all I have seen. A true rockstar. But, he doesn't have the resume and legacy like someone like a Shaq or Kareem or Russell or Wilt or Tim D which hurts him, even though I feel he was possibly the best center out of all if we consider his impact both offensively and defensively.


The Next Five:-

11. Hakeem Olajuwon.
12. Oscar Robertson.
13. Jerry West.
14. Isiah Thomas.
15. Dr J.

That seems AWFULLY high, not sure how you have him over Dr. J, Moses, and a slew of other players

[The Red Viper]

If LeBron retired today his contributions on the court would not have been greater than Duncan's or Shaq's, imo.

Solid list other than that. :cheers:

Sorry. Had to delete the post.

I agree with you there but, I am considering talent also while making the list. You can't make a list just based on one facet. So, I am considering sheer talent and ability, along with rings and legacy.

[The Red Viper]

That seems AWFULLY high, not sure how you have him over Dr. J, Moses, and a slew of other players

With him and Dr J, it could have gone either way, really. But, I always feel he kind of doesn't get his dues due to the Bad Boys image. He was a brilliant player who could killd you both in full court as well as half court offense.

[SexSymbol]

Sorry. Had to delete the post.

I agree with you there but, I am considering talent also while making the list. You can't make a list just based on one facet. So, I am considering sheer talent and ability, along with rings and legacy.
But Duncan's peak is way higher than LeBron's.
As is Kobe's and Hakeem's.
And Hakeem has basicaly the same career as bron minus the mvp, which doesn't add anything to the legacy anyway, so why is bron higher? Hakeem has two of the best runs for the ring ever

EDIT: Just saw you have Shaq at 10.
alright, new troll to the forum, maybe you'll be good

[chazzy]

Lebron or Hakeem

[The Red Viper]

But Duncan's peak is way higher than LeBron's.
As is Kobe's and Hakeem's.
And Hakeem has basicaly the same career as bron minus the mvp, which doesn't add anything to the legacy anyway, so why is bron higher? Hakeem has two of the best runs for the ring ever

EDIT: Just saw you have Shaq at 10.
alright, new troll to the forum, maybe you'll be good

I don't agree that Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem have a better peak than LeBron. And, regarding why I have LeBron higher, it has also to do with the talent. I am considering talent plus performances and legacy here.

And, just because I have Shaq at 10, it means I am trolling? :confusedshrug:

Offensively, Shaq would rank higher but I am also considering the defensive contribution. Either way, there's not a lot between any of the players here after MJ and Magic. I certainly won't argue if someone has Shaq in Top 5 because the difference between the others ain't a lot. It really comes down to your own choice.

[TheBigVeto]

Those who have Kobe in the top 10 GOAT left their commonsense and sanity out of their mind.

[SexSymbol]

I don't agree that Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem have a better peak than LeBron. And, regarding why I have LeBron higher, it has also to do with the talent. I am considering talent plus performances and legacy here.

And, just because I have Shaq at 10, it means I am trolling? :confusedshrug:

Offensively, Shaq would rank higher but I am also considering the defensive contribution. Either way, there's not a lot between any of the players here after MJ and Magic. I certainly won't argue if someone has Shaq in Top 5 because the difference between the others ain't a lot. It really comes down to your own choice.
Shaq's a better defender than at least half of the people in front of him on your list, so your arguments is stupid.
And what kind of criteria is talent? You compare talent when you talk about young players' future or about players that never made it.
Production, longevity, accomplishments, peak, clutchness those are some categories that you can compare players greatness with, what kind of a criteria is talent in terms of comparing greatness?
Do you mean ability? Which still isn't a plus if he had more abilities and didn't do more than players who had less

[tamaraw08]

Hakeem.

Never seen a player get so much praise for his 94 & 95 seasons while completely ignoring how a prime Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round for 5 years straight.

Oh you mean when he destroyed MVP David Robinson, badly outplayed Ewing and outmatched Shaq ALL IN THEIR PRIME?

[bdreason]

It's either Oscar or Kobe at #10 for me.

[The Macho Man]

If you sit around making lists of the best basketball players ever are you a top ten fgt of all time?

[The Macho Man]

If you sit around making lists of the best basketball players most of whom you werent alive to watch does that make you a top 5 fgt all time?