Better player : Rookie M.Jordan or Current Lebron ?

[Tycriss]

title

[SouBeachTalents]

Rookie Jordan

[dubeta]

:facepalm

20 year old LeBron was better than any MJ

31/7/7 with a second round appearance with a no name team

[SouBeachTalents]

:facepalm

20 year old LeBron was better than any MJ

31/7/7 with a second round appearance with a no name team

Jordan in '89: 33, 8, 8, 3 on 54%

[dubeta]

Jordan in '89: 33, 8, 8, 3 on 54%

post pace of the offences and defensive rating there please.


The entire league was basically shooting 50+%


and why is a 26 year old Mj being compared to a 20-21 year old LeBron?

[Kvnzhangyay]

LOL current Lebron and its not very close unless you purely look at stats without context

[Joyner82reload]

post pace of the offences and defensive rating there please.


The entire league was basically shooting 50+%


and why is a 26 year old Mj being compared to a 20-21 year old LeBron?

League Average TS%
1989 53.7
2006 53.6

[dubeta]

League Average TS%
1989 53.7
2006 53.6

:oldlol:

[LoneyROY7]

20 year old LeBron was better than any MJ


and why is a 26 year old Mj being compared to a 20-21 year old LeBron?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[raprap]

LeBron. Mods.

[dubeta]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He first said rookie Jordan, then posted 5th year MJ stats :facepalm

[LoneyROY7]

He first said rookie Jordan, then posted 5th year MJ stats :facepalm

You said 20 year old LeBron was better than ANY Jordan. :oldlol:

[Elosha]

87-88 through 95-96 Jordan was better than any version of Lebron, and you can make a legit argument for 97 and 98 as well.

But rookie Jordan is not better than current Lebron. More talented overall, possibly. Better, no way. You can't replace 11+ years of pro experience with a rookie with none.

[AintNoSunshine]

title


Current Lebron

Now High school Lebron or current Jordan?

[dh144498]

rookie MJ: 28/6.5/6/2.5 steals, 51.5%FG, 59%TS, 25.8 PER, .213 ws48, 38.3

current lebron: 25/5.5/7.7/1.5 steals, 47.5%FG, 57.4%TS, 24.6 PER, .193 ws48, 38.0 minutes

[Kvnzhangyay]

87-88 through 95-96 Jordan was better than any version of Lebron, and you can make a legit argument for 97 and 98 as well.

But rookie Jordan is not better than current Lebron. More talented overall, possibly. Better, no way. You can't replace 11+ years of pro experience with a rookie with none.

The only years I believe Jordan was bettter than 09-13 lebron was 89-93 jordan

[plowking]

Idiotic thread question, and idiotic answers and responses in here all round.

[3ball]

The only years I believe Jordan was bettter than 09-13 lebron was 89-93 jordan
consider that in Jordan's rookie year, he lost to Milwaukee in the first round, and they had the league's 2nd-ranked defense and maybe the greatest perimeter defender ever in Sidney Moncrief..

Jordan still averaged 29.3 points, 5.8 rebs, 8.5 assists, 2.8 stls, 1.0 blks, 56.5% TS, 43.6% FG, with a horrible cast and the entire defense focused on stopping him.

Lebron has only played better than this against a top defense 3 times in his playoff career - infact, these 3 times represent the only times he's EVER played well against a top defense in the playoffs... those 3 times would be 2009 Orlando, 2012 Boston, and 2013 Indiana.

so not only did rookie Jordan play better than almost every Lebron playoff performance against a top defense, but Jordan has played well against top defenses in the playoffs MANY more times than just Lebron's 3.
.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

consider that in Jordan's rookie year, he lost to Milwaukee in the first round, and they had the league's 2nd-ranked defense and maybe the greatest perimeter defender ever in Sidney Moncrief..

Jordan still averaged 29.3 points, 5.8 rebs, 8.5 assists, 2.8 stls, 1.0 blks, 56.5% TS, 43.6% FG, with a horrible cast and the entire defense focused on stopping him.

Lebron has only played better than this against a top defense 3 times in his playoff career - infact, these 3 times represent the only times he's EVER played well against a top defense in the playoffs... those 3 times would be 2009 Orlando, 2012 Boston, and 2013 Indiana.

so not only did rookie Jordan play better than almost every Lebron playoff performance against a top defense, but Jordan has played well against top defenses in the playoffs MANY more times than just Lebron's 3.
.

:biggums:

Jordan struggled against statistically good defenses (not overhyped hackers) too.

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

[3ball]

:biggums:

Jordan averaged sub 40% shooting the two times he faced a defense in the playoffs with a sub 100 def rating.
i said a "top-ranked defense", meaning either the #1, #2, #3, #4, or #5 ranked defense in the league.

so again, against a top-ranked defense in the playoffs, Lebron has only played well 3 times, while Jordan has played well too many times to count, although i think i will.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The spacing with which players have today is a big difference here. Simply put, guys like LeBron get a much higher proportion of open shots. Jordan OTH, had at least a dozen more chest to chest dunks in a congested paint. The answer is rookie Jordan - quite easily.

Nah... I bet 3ball nearly creamed himself though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

i said a "top-ranked defense", meaning either the #1, #2, #3, #4, or #5 ranked defense in the league.

so again, against a top-ranked defense in the playoffs, Lebron has only played well 3 times, while Jordan has played well too many times to count, although i think i will.

That would be a convenient definition if he played during an era where the entire league had inflated offensive stats. Wouldn't it? :roll:

[3ball]

That would be a convenient definition if he played during an era where the entire league had inflated offensive stats. Wouldn't it?
good mid-range shooters maintain their eFG% on mid-range shots better in the face of defense than 3-point shooters can...

for this reason, basketball without 3-pointers is a faster-paced game because teams don't need to take any time spacing the floor or running offense to get open 3-point looks.

in previous eras when the 3-point shot wasn't used, it was standard for players to jack up a mid-range shot at the first glimmer of daylight - without the need to run the type of offense necessary to get good 3-point looks, the pace was hectic back and forth - that's just how two-point basketball PLAYS..

it's a superior brand of basketball where the game and the movements on the court looked more random and organic like ants on an anthill, as opposed to today's rigid spacing and predictable movements.

and keep in mind that without the spacing and without defenders guarding the 3-point line, there was less daylight in general because defenders were in closer proximity - but this went hand-in-hand with the fact that players didn't NEED as much daylight because they were taking two-point shots and mid-range..

btw, the all two-pointers shot allocation of previous eras put downward pressure on shooting efficiency that today's player doesn't have to worry about: while previous eras took all two-pointers and mid-range, these shots are considered bad, low efficiency shots in today's game and are avoided because the 3-point shooting and spacing gets better shots (3-pointers, FT's, at-rim)
.

[J Shuttlesworth]

LeBron stats against tough defenses:
2006
vs. Pistsons (#5 defense)
26.6/8.5/6 44.2 % FG, 51.6% TS

2007
vs. Spurs (#2 defense)
22/7/7 35.6% FG, 42.8% TS

2008
vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
26.7/6.4/7.6 35.5% FG, 48% TS

2009
vs. Magic (#1 defense)
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS

2010
vs. Celtics (#5 defense)
26.8/9.3/7.2 44.9% FG, 55.6% TS

2011
ECSF vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS

WCF vs. Bulls (#1 defense)
25.8/7.8/6.6 44.7% FG 56.9% TS

2012
ECF vs Celtics (#1 defense in the league)
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS

1st round vs. Knicks (#5 defense)
27.8/5.2/5.6 47%, 60.4% TS

2013
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS

vs. Spurs (#3 defense)
25.3/10/9/7 on 44.7% FG, 52.9% TS

2014
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
22.8/6.3/5.5 55.9% FG, 63.7% TS

vs. Spurs (#3 defense)
28.2/7.8/4 57% FG, 67.9% TS

vs. Bobcats (#5 defense)
30/8/6 55.7% FG, 67.1% TS

[J Shuttlesworth]

Which 3 of those are the good ones, 3 ball?

[3ball]

Which 3 of those are the good ones, 3 ball?



Here are Lebron's good performances against top defenses:


2009
vs. Magic (#1 defense)
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS


2011
ECSF vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS

WCF vs. Bulls (#1 defense)
25.8/7.8/6.6 44.7% FG 56.9% TS


2012
ECF vs Celtics (#1 defense in the league)
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS

1st round vs. Knicks (#5 defense)
27.8/5.2/5.6 47%, 60.4% TS


2013
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS


so seven good performances... ONLY two great ones (2009 Magic, 2012 Boston).

[J Shuttlesworth]

Here are Lebron's good performances against top defenses:


2009
vs. Magic (#1 defense)
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS


2011
ECSF vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS

WCF vs. Bulls (#1 defense)
25.8/7.8/6.6 44.7% FG 56.9% TS


2012
ECF vs Celtics (#1 defense in the league)
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS

1st round vs. Knicks (#5 defense)
27.8/5.2/5.6 47%, 60.4% TS


2013
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS


so seven good performances... ONLY two great ones (2009 Magic, 2012 Boston).
wtf you on man? There were 12 good performances there. 07/08 are the only poor ones

[3ball]

wtf you on man? There were 12 good performances there. 07/08 are the only poor ones
ok that's cool... :confusedshrug: ... there's a lot of wiggle room in there when we are talking about the "good" performances.

but lebron only has two truly GREAT performances against top 5 defenses in the playoffs: 2009 Orlando and 2012 Boston.

jordan has a lot more than that, and in the Finals at that.

[J Shuttlesworth]

ok that's cool... :confusedshrug: ... there's a lot of wiggle room in there when we are talking about the "good" performances.

but lebron only has two truly GREAT performances against top 5 defenses in the playoffs: 2009 Orlando and 2012 Boston.

jordan has a lot more than that, and in the Finals at that.
Sorry but I'd consider these to be great:
26.8/9.3/7.2 44.9% FG, 55.6% TS
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS
26.6/8.5/6 44.2 % FG, 51.6% TS (includes 48 pt game vs pistons)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS
25.3/10/7 on 44.7% FG, 52.9% TS
28.2/7.8/4 57% FG, 67.9% TS
30/8/6 55.7% FG, 67.1% TS

Bolded are the finals

Jordan has two series that are untouchable, but I'd say the rest of them LeBron has series on par with them, including the finals

[3ball]

comparing with Jordan in the Finals shouldn't really be done.

[3ball]

Jordan has two series that are untouchable, but I'd say the rest of them LeBron has series on par with them, including the finals


agree with the bolded... :cheers:

but let's not compare Jordan and Lebron's Finals performances... it's blasphemous in reality and Lebron's just not worthy of the comparison.

Jordan's Finals numbers dwarf Lebrons (33.6 ppg to 23ppg) and don't make me say it.... but 6/6 > 2/5 (including losing with better talent and choking)..

[J Shuttlesworth]

agree with the bolded... :cheers:

but let's not compare Jordan and Lebron's Finals performances... it's blasphemous in reality and Lebron's just not worthy of the comparison -

Jordan's Finals numbers dwarf Lebrons (33.6 ppg to 23ppg) and don't make me say it.... but 6/6 > 2/5 (including losing with better talent and choking)..
lol man you don't have to get upset and throw around this 2>5 nonsense. I'm not trying to diss jordan at all or say LeBron > him. I grew up watching Jordan, and he's my 2nd all time favorite player after Ray Allen. Even have a Jordan jersey from when I was in elementary school.

But this whole idea that you were trying to say LeBron has only played well 3 times against a top defense:biggums: gtfo of here with that BS. I posted up 12 good playoff series against a top defense. It just goes to show that half the shit you're saying in these threads you have no evidence for. Just making assumptions that make it seem like you've never watched LeBron play.

[3ball]

you and i were talking about Finals performance - so the 2 for 5 stuff is relevant - i never understand why people don't want to talk about it.

it's not like he's 5/5 or 4/5... he's 2/5, so there is a massive chasm between that and 6/6.

as for "no evidence" - i just posted every jordan series performance against top 5 defenses, and it shows Jordan did better than lebron, as you concede.

and to give another example, in another thread, i posted actual statistical data showing lebron dominates the ball more than guys like stephan curry, goran dragic, tyreke evans, kyrie irving, and eric bledsoe... so i give plenty of evidence to back my points.

[dubeta]

lol man you don't have to get upset and throw around this 2>5 nonsense. I'm not trying to diss jordan at all or say LeBron > him. I grew up watching Jordan, and he's my 2nd all time favorite player after Ray Allen. Even have a Jordan jersey from when I was in elementary school.

But this whole idea that you were trying to say LeBron has only played well 3 times against a top defense:biggums: gtfo of here with that BS. I posted up 12 good playoff series against a top defense. It just goes to show that half the shit you're saying in these threads you have no evidence for. Just making assumptions that make it seem like you've never watched LeBron play.

sorry dude but only if you include the phrase "chest-to-chest" will 3ball respond objectively

He's a robot and thats the pass code take it from me

[3ball]

if we are talking about Finals performance... the 2/5 stuff is fair game.

so why don't people want to talk about it when we are discussing Lebron's Finals performance?

isn't 2/5 Lebron's Finals performance?.. so how is that not relevant to a discussion of his Finals performance?

:biggums:

[dubeta]

if we are talking about Finals performance... the 2/5 stuff is fair game.

so why don't people want to talk about it when we are discussing Lebron's Finals performance?

isn't 2/5 Lebron's Finals performance?.. so how is that not relevant to a discussion of his Finals performance?

:biggums:

Jordan was the worst 1st round player in NBA history, could only put up a 1-9 without Pippen :facepalm

No argument for GOAT


Isnt that fair game as well?

[J Shuttlesworth]

you and i were talking about Finals performance - so the 2 for 5 stuff is relevant - i never understand why people don't want to talk about it.

it's not like he's 5/5 or 4/5... he's 2/5, so there is a massive chasm between that and 6/6.

as for "no evidence" - i just posted every jordan series performance against top 5 defenses, and it shows Jordan did better than lebron, as you concede.

and to give another example, in another thread, i posted actual statistical data showing lebron dominates the ball more than guys like stephan curry, goran dragic, tyreke evans, kyrie irving, and eric bledsoe... so i give plenty of evidence to back my points.
That's not even the point. I really wasn't comparing LeBron and jordan in the finals. You just made it seem like LeBron hadn't played well in the finals, which is complete BS. The 2012-14 are all statistically great finals. You also said he only had 3 good performances, which showed you hadn't done the actual research before trying to present facts. All I'm saying is research what you're talking about and stop making crap like that up.

oh, and chest to chest

[3ball]

That's not even the point. I really wasn't comparing LeBron and jordan in the finals. You just made it seem like LeBron hadn't played well in the finals, which is complete BS. The 2012-14 are all statistically great finals. You also said he only had 3 good performances, which showed you hadn't done the actual research before trying to present facts. All I'm saying is research what you're talking about and stop making crap like that up.

oh, and chest to chest
no, when i said he only had 3 good performances, i was talking about GREAT performances.. like all-time great... like his 2009 Orlando and 2012 Boston..

so really, i misspoke... he's only had TWO great performances against top 5 defenses, not three.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan was the worst 1st round player in NBA history, could only put up a 1-9 without Pippen :facepalm

No argument for GOAT


Isnt that fair game as well?

That's a bit of an exaggeration, he averaged 36, 6, 7 on 46% in his first 3 years in the playoffs, I'm sure that's a little better than what someone like a Chris Bosh did in the first round

[Yao Ming's Foot]

good mid-range shooters maintain their eFG% on mid-range shots better in the face of defense than 3-point shooters can...

for this reason, basketball without 3-pointers is a faster-paced game because teams don't need to take any time spacing the floor or running offense to get open 3-point looks.

in previous eras when the 3-point shot wasn't used, it was standard for players to jack up a mid-range shot at the first glimmer of daylight - without the need to run the type of offense necessary to get good 3-point looks, the pace was hectic back and forth - that's just how two-point basketball PLAYS..

it's a superior brand of basketball where the game and the movements on the court looked more random and organic like ants on an anthill, as opposed to today's rigid spacing and predictable movements.

and keep in mind that without the spacing and without defenders guarding the 3-point line, there was less daylight in general because defenders were in closer proximity - but this went hand-in-hand with the fact that players didn't NEED as much daylight because they were taking two-point shots and mid-range..

btw, the all two-pointers shot allocation of previous eras put downward pressure on shooting efficiency that today's player doesn't have to worry about: while previous eras took all two-pointers and mid-range, these shots are considered bad, low efficiency shots in today's game and are avoided because the 3-point shooting and spacing gets better shots (3-pointers, FT's, at-rim)
.


:biggums:

[J Shuttlesworth]

no, when i said he only had 3 good performances, i was talking about GREAT performances.. like all-time great... like his 2009 Orlando and 2012 Boston..

so really, i misspoke... he's only had TWO great performances against top 5 defenses, not three.
Definitely more than 2, especially since I saw some of Jordan's ones you were calling great.

[dubeta]

That's a bit of an exaggeration, he averaged 36, 6, 7 on 46% in his first 3 years in the playoffs, I'm sure that's a little better than what someone like a Chris Bosh did in the first round

Might be but its similar to calling someone a 2/5 when one of those series he had no business being in (2007) and another one where he put up 28ppg on 70% TS


Worst case scenario LeBron is a legit 2/3

[3ball]

Definitely more than 2, especially since I saw some of Jordan's ones you were calling great.
Lebron just hasn't had nearly as many big playoff games as Jordan has.

Lebron has underachieved in the playoffs many times, whereas Jordan never did - and Lebron only averages 23ppg in the Finals to Jordan's 33.6.

Just look at their overall averages in the playoffs on per-100 possession basis (to account for any pace and playing time differences):

MJ: 28.6 PER, 43.3 ppg, 2.2 off reb, 6.0 def reb, 7.4 assists, 2.7 stl, 1.1 blk, 4.0 TO, 0.255 WS/48, 118 ORtg

LBJ: 27.7 PER, 36.6 ppg, 1.9 off reb, 9.0 def reb, 8.4 assists, 2.1 stl, 1.1 blk, 4.5 TO, 0.243 WS/48, 116 ORtg
.

[Marchesk]

Jordan was the worst 1st round player in NBA history, could only put up a 1-9 without Pippen :facepalm

What sort of teams was he facing in his first three years? 59 win 84 Bucks against prime Moncrief, 67 win 85 Celtics, and 59 win 86 Celtics.

What was MJ's average over those three series?

35.6/6.4/6.7 on 45.6%. One against a two time defensive player of the year shooting guard in his prime, one against one of the greatest teams of all time with one of the best front courts of all time, and the last one against that team the following season.

[Elosha]

What sort of teams was he facing in his first three years? 59 win 84 Bucks against prime Moncrief, 67 win 85 Celtics, and 59 win 86 Celtics.

What was MJ's average over those three series?

35.6/6.4/6.7 on 45.6%. One against a two time defensive player of the year shooting guard in his prime, one against one of the greatest teams of all time with one of the best front courts of all time, and the last one against that team the following season.

Moreover, what type of teammates was Jordan playing with? Some very poor ones, I would argue worse than Lebron's crew in his first two or three years. Moreover, LBJ didn't even make the playoffs for the first two years.

The "1-9" argument is really feeble.

[dh144498]

rookie MJ: 28/6.5/6/2.5 steals, 51.5%FG, 59%TS, 25.8 PER, .213 ws48, 38.3

current lebron: 25/5.5/7.7/1.5 steals, 47.5%FG, 57.4%TS, 24.6 PER, .193 ws48, 38.0 minutes

should have ended right here.

/end thread

[ArbitraryWater]

should have ended right here.

/end thread

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4X6kzjCYAArkk7.jpg

*49% FG

:rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

*49% FG

:rolleyes:

52% FG, actually - if you're referring to MJ, that is.

[BIZARRO]

should have ended right here.

/end thread

Or here...

Bird spoke Tuesday evening after the world champions had vanquished the Bulls 110-106 in a visceral Stadium affair before 18,061 customers who needed their chairs only occasionally. Bird required a seat now, fighting fatigue and a bug, with a towel over his legs and a beer. He had played 42 minutes and watched Michael Jordan the other 6.

``I have never seen one player turn a team around like that,`` said Bird, snapping his fingers. ``All the Bulls have become better because of him. Orlando Woolridge will probably be an All-Star for the rest of his career. And pretty soon, this place will be packed every night, not just when the Celtics come to town. They`ll pay just to watch Jordan. Got to.``

Bird recently volunteered his vote for Jordan as the finest athlete he`d ever witnessed or opposed, mentioning the Bulls` electric rookie in the same monologue as Wayne Gretzky. After observing Jordan gyrate for 41 points, a game-high 12 rebounds and 7 assists Tuesday night, Bird was in no mood for second opinions.

``Best,`` said Bird. ``Never seen anyone like him. Unlike anyone I`ve ever seen. Phenomenal. One of a kind.``

In other words . . .

``One of a kind,`` he repeated. ``That`s what I mean about the league. With guys like him coming in from college year after year, we just can`t help but get a better image, better crowds, better TV ratings. He`s the best. Ever.``

Better than Larry Bird?

``Yup,`` said Bird. ``At his stage in his career, he`s doing more than I ever did. I couldn`t do what he did as a rookie. Heck, there was one drive tonight. He had the ball up in his right hand, then he took it down, then he brought it back up. I got a hand on it, fouled him, and he still scored. And all the while, he`s in the air. You have to play this game to know how difficult that is. You see that and figure, `Well, what the heck can you do?` ``

Quote:
``Best,`` repeated Bird. ``I`d seen a little of him before and wasn`t that impressed. I mean, I thought he`d be good, but not this good. Ain`t nothing he can`t do. That`s good for this franchise, good for the league.``

Quote:
``At home, and most places on the road, the buildings are full. This one will be pretty soon, too, every night because of Michael Jordan. He`s the best.``

Better than . . .

``Yup,`` said Larry Bird, coughing up a storm. The NBA shall not rest easily until this cold front passes, because for the league to be healthy, it can`t afford for its leading man to be sick.


Bobby Knight said MJ was the best basketball player he'd ever seen in 1984 too.

I saw rookie MJ living in Chicago..
If this thread is Rookie Mike (and defensively absolutely crazy active) versus CURRENT Lebron, it's MJ all day.
/thread.