Today's big men

[stanlove1111]

I know there has been a lot of discussion about big men fro earlier years being better and more dominating then todays big men. There is one big reason for that and it seems like nobody ever talks about it. In the 60s and 70s for example post defense was really really weak. Centers just posted up right near the lane and called for the ball and got it whenever they wanted. Todays defenses are so much better at stopping this that it prevents a center a big man from dominating like they used to.


Just look at this game from 1970 and see what I mean. I have started paying attention to this because my son who is good at basketball watched an old game and laughed about how easy it was for a big man to get the ball close to the basket back then where todays its extremely hard, plus there was no fighting for postion back then or it was a foul. So talking about how much better centers were back then isn't exactly the case. When my son watched Jabbar he said that his hook shot would be hard to stop still but he sure as heck would be shooting it from a lot farther out and wouldn't get the ball anytime he wanted..The more I watched old games the more I am sure he is correct.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_uAJlWP0lQ

[Fire Colangelo]

Great big men from previous eras are going to be great regardless of what era they play in. They will adjust to the rules and dominate just like they did in this era.

[aau]

I know there has been a lot of discussion about big men fro earlier years being better and more dominating then todays big men. There is one big reason for that and it seems like nobody ever talks about it. In the 60s and 70s for example post defense was really really weak. Centers just posted up right near the lane and called for the ball and got it whenever they wanted. Todays defenses are so much better at stopping this that it prevents a center a big man from dominating like they used to.


Just look at this game from 1970 and see what I mean. I have started paying attention to this because my son who is good at basketball watched an old game and laughed about how easy it was for a big man to get the ball close to the basket back then where todays its extremely hard, plus there was no fighting for postion back then or it was a foul. So talking about how much better centers were back then isn't exactly the case. When my son watched Jabbar he said that his hook shot would be hard to stop still but he sure as heck would be shooting it from a lot farther out and wouldn't get the ball anytime he wanted..The more I watched old games the more I am sure he is correct.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_uAJlWP0lQ


come on stan

your son is a great player

but back in the day he would have been a
lead-foot back to the basket jump-hook
shooting big man like the rest cause
that's all the coaches would have
taught him , , it's all they knew

he's bigger and still handles the ball and
passes like a guard penetrates off the
dribble and creates his own shots
. . . . . great from 3

wasn't pigeon-holed in the least

[aau]

dup

[stanlove1111]

Great big men from previous eras are going to be great regardless of what era they play in. They will adjust to the rules and dominate just like they did in this era.


I actually hate it when people say this. There can only be so many great players in the league at once. IF everyone is great then nobody dominates..

[Fire Colangelo]

I actually hate it when people say this. There can only be so many great players in the league at once. IF everyone is great then nobody dominates..

？

what does this have to do with anything....? I'm not saying we're bring the entire all star team from the 70s to the current generation, but hypothetically if we can bring back kareem from the 70s and put him on the lakers team right now, he's gonna dominate.

just like he would if you put him on any team in the 60s, 80s, 90s, 00s, etc.

[LAZERUSS]

True post up centers are a rarity. And among the many reasons, is the fact that even seven-footers want to handle the ball and shoot treys.

Just look at the highly rated Thon Maker. In his soph high school season, he shot 48% from the field, which included a dreadful 29% from the high-school 3pt line (which is substantially less than the NBA's.)

Instead of dominating far inferior-sized players inside, he is dancing around at between the circles, and hoping that an ESPN camera catches him with a spin move and a 20 ft three.

Just deplorable.

[DaRkJaWs]

Yeah and back then perimeter players could never get into the lane with a wilt or Russell in the middle. These days they have a freeway to the paint with very little stopping them. Now that is pathetic. Wilt chamberlain turns in his grave anytime someone gets an easy hoop at the basket with nobody even vein a shot blocking threat.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah and back then perimeter players could never get into the lane with a wilt or Russell in the middle. These days they have a freeway to the paint with very little stopping them. Now that is pathetic. Wilt chamberlain turns in his grave anytime someone gets an easy hoop at the basket with nobody even vein a shot blocking threat.

Can you imagine the 6-0 Chris Paul driving the lane on Chamberlain? If Wilt were routinely rejecting the 6-5 (6-6 in shoes), 220 lb. Oscar, he would have been blocking Paul's shots with his waist (or below.)

[Ariza4three]

I know there has been a lot of discussion about big men fro earlier years being better and more dominating then todays big men. There is one big reason for that and it seems like nobody ever talks about it. In the 60s and 70s for example post defense was really really weak. Centers just posted up right near the lane and called for the ball and got it whenever they wanted. Todays defenses are so much better at stopping this that it prevents a center a big man from dominating like they used to.


Just look at this game from 1970 and see what I mean. I have started paying attention to this because my son who is good at basketball watched an old game and laughed about how easy it was for a big man to get the ball close to the basket back then where todays its extremely hard, plus there was no fighting for postion back then or it was a foul. So talking about how much better centers were back then isn't exactly the case. When my son watched Jabbar he said that his hook shot would be hard to stop still but he sure as heck would be shooting it from a lot farther out and wouldn't get the ball anytime he wanted..The more I watched old games the more I am sure he is correct.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_uAJlWP0lQ
Your son is 100% right. Too bad posters here won't admit it.

[Fire Colangelo]

Can you imagine the 6-0 Chris Paul driving the lane on Chamberlain? If Wilt were routinely rejecting the 6-5 (6-6 in shoes), 220 lb. Oscar, he would have been blocking Paul's shots with his waist (or below.)

Idk man, Cousy was making them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Your son is 100% right. Too bad posters here won't admit it.
Validation from Jameer... OP's reputation has now officially been destroyed.

[PHILA]

would be shooting it from a lot farther out and wouldn't get the ball anytime he wanted
Part of this may be due to the lack of quality entry passers now compared to past eras. Bill Walton has said that KAJ had a strong base in the post. Players like Reed, Unseld, Chamberlain also were very strong inside but did not have the mobility and/or size to stay with him.

Below is an example of him driving across the lane right out of the low post and going into his hook shot. Unbelievable quickness for a player of that size and no need for him to faceup before the drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8l0aq8CwM&t=12m34s


KAJ was at his best on the right block turning to the baseline for the hook, where he could shoot it with his right hand and protect the shot much better against the help defense. He was getting a clean look virtually every time, given that his man wouldn't be able to challenge the shot and the help defense couldn't get to it without climbing up his arm.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=3m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=6m50s



Wilt chamberlain turns in his grave anytime someone gets an easy hoop at the basket with nobody even vein a shot blocking threat.

He could catch the ball right out of the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU&t=2m20s

http://i.imgur.com/of8bTsI.png

[Akhenaten]

Yeah, without a doubt.

It's much easier to deny the post entry pass or make it a tough angle because of the rules, most prominently being allowed to double team off the ball. Perimetre defense is also much more active particularly when it comes to ball pressure, from what I've seen watching old games you could pretty much dribble the ball without much fear of a guy really pressing up on you or reaching in.

That back to the basket stuff is antiquated, it's a relic, today catches happen much farther away from the basket and BIGS get the ball with less time on the shot clock. Added to this when they do catch the ball, defenses are in better position to provide help. Offensive 3 seconds is also stringently officiated.

Even if a guy is a great back to basket player on say a KAJ level, running a multitude of possessions with that style is not conducive to winning in today's league. It's far too deliberate a style that in today's league is too easy to key in on, even if a guy could avg 25+ ball movement and flow would be too stunted and mucky to make is a viable way of playing offense.

Even in the days where KAJ and Wilt dominated, they won their rings when their offensive games were muted in favour of having the guards/wings orchestrating and scoring. This is even more pronounced to today.

[CoastalRyan]

It would take serious mental adjusting not just a physical one. The game has evolved tactically. Its no where near the same game it was even 15 years ago. "Sabermetrics" and the influx of how franchises go about studying film, scout opposing teams and gameplanning is miles from what these players were accustomed to.

I just don't think people understand the exponential evolution of modern day sports when they make the argument about past players being able to compete in current times.

I'm not saying there weren't dynamic players back in the day but there was way more of an emphasis on redundancy in a successful players game whereas that kind of approach couldn't possibly be exploited in the ever changing tactical world of today's basketball.

[CoastalRyan]

Even if a guy is a great back to basket player on say a KAJ level, run a multitude of possessions with that style is not conducive to winning in today's league. It's far too deliberate a style that in today's league is too easy to key in on, even if a guy could avg 25+ ball movement and flow would be too stunted and mucky to make is a viable way of playing offense.

You say it better than I do. You could dominate if not manufacture wins with that kind of redundancy but in today's game that would be solved in a day or two of proper game planning.

[Im Still Ballin]

It just goes to show you how great Demarcus Cousins is.

He routinely gets doubled/tripled down low, and still gets the bucket, if not fouled. Just imagined if he was getting single coverage like the legends of past. If he's a 24 ppg scorer in 30 minutes in this era, he'd probably be a 27-30 ppg scorer is past eras. Plus he'd play more minutes because he wouldn't pick up fouls in the more physical eras.

[Akhenaten]

It just goes to show you how great Demarcus Cousins is.

He routinely gets doubled/tripled down low, and still gets the bucket, if not fouled. Just imagined if he was getting single coverage like the legends of past. If he's a 24 ppg scorer in 30 minutes in this era, he'd probably be a 27-30 ppg scorer is past eras. Plus he'd play more minutes because he wouldn't pick up fouls in the more physical eras.

say bruh, you wanna give that man crotch area some air man?:biggums:

[Marchesk]

It just goes to show you how great Demarcus Cousins is.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Two years ago the inept statue that is Roy Hibbert averaged 22 ppg on a .557 FG% against the champion Heat in the playoffs.

The 6-9 3/4 Demarcus Cousins is averaging 23+ ppg in today's NBA.

The skills-limited Dwight Howard, with no shot from 3ft on out, averaged 23 ppg in 38 mpg just a few years ago.

Watch the 6-9 Zach Randolph play. A PF that routinely posts up, and with seasons of up to 24 ppg in 36 mpg. The reality is, Randolph is today's Wilis Reed in almost every offensive category.

I know there are those that will claim that the rules changes limited Shaq's domination in the mid-2000's, but the reality was, he was rapidly losing his athleticism by that time. But, as we all know, less than 15 years ago, he was averaging 38 ppg on a .611 FG% in the Finals. And just five years ago a 36 year old O'Neal, at probably around 370 lbs, put up a 45 point game.

Two years ago Tim Duncan, who has basically played center most of his career, and certainly is a post-up player, at age 36, averaged 18 ppg in 30 mpg.


Today's two of TODAY's BEST centers, DeAndre Jordan, and Andre Drummond, are virtually worthless without a point-blank dunk. How come?

How come the athletic seven-footer Ryan Hollins can't do anything in the post?

Hell, go right down the rosters in TODAY's NBA. Or better yet, look at the box-scores. How many times is a CENTER even in the damn game?

I'm sorry, but guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, and Moses would be scoring 25-30+ ppg in TODAY's NBA against these sorry assed, and under-sized shells of what has become an NBA center. And you can be sure that the truly dominant post-up centers, like Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq, in their primes, would be scoring at will against these bums.

[dubeta]

Two years ago the inept statue that is Roy Hibbert averaged 22 ppg on a .557 FG% against the champion Heat in the playoffs.

The 6-9 3/4 Demarcus Cousins is averaging 23+ ppg in today's NBA.

The skills-limited Dwight Howard, with no shot from 3ft on out, averaged 23 ppg in 38 mpg just a few years ago.

Watch the 6-9 Zach Randolph play. A PF that routinely posts up, and with seasons of up to 24 ppg in 36 mpg. The reality is, Randolph is today's Wilis Reed in almost every offensive category.

I know there are those that will claim that the rules changes limited Shaq's domination in the mid-2000's, but the reality was, he was rapidly losing his athleticism by that time. But, as we all know, less than 15 years ago, he was averaging 38 ppg on a .611 FG% in the Finals. And just five years ago a 36 year old O'Neal, at probably around 370 lbs, put up a 45 point game.

Two years ago Tim Duncan, who has basically played center most of his career, and certainly is a post-up player, at age 36, averaged 18 ppg in 30 mpg.


Today's two of TODAY's BEST centers, DeAndre Jordan, and Andre Drummond, are virtually worthless without a point-blank dunk. How come?

How come the athletic seven-footer Ryan Hollins can't do anything in the post?

Hell, go right down the rosters in TODAY's NBA. Or better yet, look at the box-scores. How many times is a CENTER even in the damn game?

I'm sorry, but guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, and Moses would be scoring 25-30+ ppg in TODAY's NBA against these sorry assed, and under-sized shells of what has become an NBA center. And you can be sure that the truly dominant post-up centers, like Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq, in their primes, would be scoring at will against these bums.

So how much higher would Wilt's 18 ppg Finals average be in this slower paced era?

[ThatCoolKid]

Two years ago the inept statue that is Roy Hibbert averaged 22 ppg on a .557 FG% against the champion Heat in the playoffs.

The 6-9 3/4 Demarcus Cousins is averaging 23+ ppg in today's NBA.

The skills-limited Dwight Howard, with no shot from 3ft on out, averaged 23 ppg in 38 mpg just a few years ago.

Watch the 6-9 Zach Randolph play. A PF that routinely posts up, and with seasons of up to 24 ppg in 36 mpg. The reality is, Randolph is today's Wilis Reed in almost every offensive category.

I know there are those that will claim that the rules changes limited Shaq's domination in the mid-2000's, but the reality was, he was rapidly losing his athleticism by that time. But, as we all know, less than 15 years ago, he was averaging 38 ppg on a .611 FG% in the Finals. And just five years ago a 36 year old O'Neal, at probably around 370 lbs, put up a 45 point game.

Two years ago Tim Duncan, who has basically played center most of his career, and certainly is a post-up player, at age 36, averaged 18 ppg in 30 mpg.


Today's two of TODAY's BEST centers, DeAndre Jordan, and Andre Drummond, are virtually worthless without a point-blank dunk. How come?

How come the athletic seven-footer Ryan Hollins can't do anything in the post?

Hell, go right down the rosters in TODAY's NBA. Or better yet, look at the box-scores. How many times is a CENTER even in the damn game?

I'm sorry, but guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, and Moses would be scoring 25-30+ ppg in TODAY's NBA against these sorry assed, and under-sized shells of what has become an NBA center. And you can be sure that the truly dominant post-up centers, like Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq, in their primes, would be scoring at will against these bums.

Lebron can guard 5s, would shut down any of those bums.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Two years ago the inept statue that is Roy Hibbert averaged 22 ppg on a .557 FG% against the champion Heat in the playoffs.

The 6-9 3/4 Demarcus Cousins is averaging 23+ ppg in today's NBA.

The skills-limited Dwight Howard, with no shot from 3ft on out, averaged 23 ppg in 38 mpg just a few years ago.

Watch the 6-9 Zach Randolph play. A PF that routinely posts up, and with seasons of up to 24 ppg in 36 mpg. The reality is, Randolph is today's Wilis Reed in almost every offensive category.

I know there are those that will claim that the rules changes limited Shaq's domination in the mid-2000's, but the reality was, he was rapidly losing his athleticism by that time. But, as we all know, less than 15 years ago, he was averaging 38 ppg on a .611 FG% in the Finals. And just five years ago a 36 year old O'Neal, at probably around 370 lbs, put up a 45 point game.

Two years ago Tim Duncan, who has basically played center most of his career, and certainly is a post-up player, at age 36, averaged 18 ppg in 30 mpg.


Today's two of TODAY's BEST centers, DeAndre Jordan, and Andre Drummond, are virtually worthless without a point-blank dunk. How come?

How come the athletic seven-footer Ryan Hollins can't do anything in the post?

Hell, go right down the rosters in TODAY's NBA. Or better yet, look at the box-scores. How many times is a CENTER even in the damn game?

I'm sorry, but guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, and Moses would be scoring 25-30+ ppg in TODAY's NBA against these sorry assed, and under-sized shells of what has become an NBA center. And you can be sure that the truly dominant post-up centers, like Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq, in their primes, would be scoring at will against these bums.

This is true, but you gotta account that this is a product of what they grew up practicing and how they are used in today's game

If KAJ, etc grew up in the same time that current centers grew up on who knows what their playstyle would be like now; theres too many variables

Obviously though if you plucked them straight into today's game they would dominate; all-time greats would dominate in any era

[LAZERUSS]

So how much higher would Wilt's 18 ppg Finals average be in this slower paced era?

In his "scoring prime" and against RUSSELL and his swarming Celtics, he averaged 29.2 ppg on 24 FGAs (and on a .517 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420 ) in the '64 Finals (the ONLT time a scoring Wilt played in the Finals BTW.) Think about that...29 ppg on 24 FGAs. Hakeem averaged 33 ppg on 30 FGAs in the '95 Finals, in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of...get this... .504.

If you were to give that Wilt 30 FGAs, per game, and transfer his shooting to a much higher '95 rate, he would have averaged nearly 40 ppg on a .620 FG%.

[iznogood]

Two years ago the inept statue that is Roy Hibbert averaged 22 ppg on a .557 FG% against the champion Heat in the playoffs.

The 6-9 3/4 Demarcus Cousins is averaging 23+ ppg in today's NBA.

The skills-limited Dwight Howard, with no shot from 3ft on out, averaged 23 ppg in 38 mpg just a few years ago.

Watch the 6-9 Zach Randolph play. A PF that routinely posts up, and with seasons of up to 24 ppg in 36 mpg. The reality is, Randolph is today's Wilis Reed in almost every offensive category.

I know there are those that will claim that the rules changes limited Shaq's domination in the mid-2000's, but the reality was, he was rapidly losing his athleticism by that time. But, as we all know, less than 15 years ago, he was averaging 38 ppg on a .611 FG% in the Finals. And just five years ago a 36 year old O'Neal, at probably around 370 lbs, put up a 45 point game.

Two years ago Tim Duncan, who has basically played center most of his career, and certainly is a post-up player, at age 36, averaged 18 ppg in 30 mpg.


Today's two of TODAY's BEST centers, DeAndre Jordan, and Andre Drummond, are virtually worthless without a point-blank dunk. How come?

How come the athletic seven-footer Ryan Hollins can't do anything in the post?

Hell, go right down the rosters in TODAY's NBA. Or better yet, look at the box-scores. How many times is a CENTER even in the damn game?

I'm sorry, but guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, and Moses would be scoring 25-30+ ppg in TODAY's NBA against these sorry assed, and under-sized shells of what has become an NBA center. And you can be sure that the truly dominant post-up centers, like Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq, in their primes, would be scoring at will against these bums.
How are Jordan and Drummond two of the best centers in the game? Neither of them is top 10.

[LAZERUSS]

How are Jordan and Drummond two of the best centers in the game? Neither of them is top 10.

Give me your top-10 list.

[iznogood]

Give me your top-10 list.
In no particular order, but I'd take all these players on my team before I take either Jordan or Drummond:

Gasol, Bogut, Cousins, Noah, Howard, Jefferson, Horford, Bosh, Chandler, Lopez, Valanciunas, Pekovic, Vucevic, Gortat, Hibbert, Nene.

[LAZERUSS]

In no particular order, but I'd take all these players on my team before I take either Jordan or Drummond:

Gasol, Bogut, Cousins, Noah, Howard, Jefferson, Horford, Bosh, Chandler, Lopez, Valanciunas, Pekovic, Vucevic, Gortat, Hibbert, Nene. I'd even take Adams before I take Drummond.


Gortat...nope.
Pekovic...nope.
Bogut...nope.
Valanciunas...nope.
Hibbert...definitely nope.
Nene...nope (and BTW, he is more of a PF.)
Adams? Nope...


Chandler...SAME player. Can't shoot BTW.
Robin Lopez...close, but no better.
Noah...SAME.
Horford...nope. Better offensively, but can't rebound.

That leaves Bosh, Cousins, Howard, Jefferson, Vucevic, and Gasol. And Gasol is nowhere near the rebounder that either Jordan, or Drummond are. And of course, Howard's shooting is suspect, but at least he is a proven post player.

[Akhenaten]

another factor too is that guards today are much less willing to defer to bigs

this is why imo the greatest guards/wings are greater than the greatest bigs particularly because bigs are literally at the mercy of their teammates' ability and willingness to pass.

BIGS (especially the traditional back to the basket guys), by nature have limited offensive skillsets compared to guards/wings. In order for a back to the basket big to avg 25-30 in today's league he needs teammates that are committed to feeding him the ball in good position possession after possession after possession.

Forget about the ability to score 25-30, they wont have the opportunity to avg those kind of totals.

Kobe a player who shoots indiscriminately and at guard can pretty take a shot every possession if he wants still "only" shoots 22 shots a game with 8 fta.

Steph Curry only takes 17 shots a game. A prolific scoring big would need to shoot 20 shots a game on 60% shooting with 6 made FT's a game to avg 30, 60% on 17 FGA with 5 made FT's to avg 25.

There just arent that many shots to go around in todays nba, posters thinking it a forgone conclusion that their fave bigman would avg 25+ ppg arent being rational.

The leading scorer in the league takes 18 shots a game, 2 made 3's and 9 points in made FT's to avg 26. Lebron only shoots 17 shots per. Just getting 15 shots a game is a feat for a modern big.

[LAZERUSS]

another factor too is that guards today are much less willing to defer to bigs

this is why imo the greatest guards/wings are greater than the greatest bigs particularly because bigs are literally at the mercy of their teammates' ability and willingness to pass.

BIGS (especially the traditional back to the basket guys), by nature have limited offensive skillsets compared to guards/wings. In order for a back to the basket big to avg 25-30 in today's league he needs teammates that are committed to feeding him the ball in good position possession after possession after possession.

Forget about the ability to score 25-30, they wont have the opportunity to avg those kind of totals.

Kobe a player who shoots indiscriminately and at guard can pretty take a shot every possession if he wants still "only" shoots 22 shots a game with 8 fta.

Steph Curry only takes 17 shots a game. A prolific scoring big would need to shoot 20 shots a game on 60% shooting with 6 made FT's a game to avg 30, 60% on 17 FGA with 5 made FT's to avg 25.

There just arent that many shots to go around in todays nba, posters thinking it a forgone conclusion that their fave bigman would avg 25+ ppg arent being rational.

The leading scorer in the league takes 18 shots a game, 2 made 3's and 9 points in made FT's to avg 26. Lebron only shoots 17 shots per. Just getting 15 shots a game is a feat for a modern big.

Cousins is averaging over 16 FGAs, and over 8 FTAs per game, and in only 32 mpg, and is close at 23.5 ppg.

A prime KAJ would get his 20-25 FGAs every game without breaking a sweat. Just get him the ball, and he will score.

[iznogood]

You are completely biased to suggest Noah or Lopez are close, but not better. Same goes for Chandler, who is similar player, indeed but certainly better at defense and less limited on offense. It was a consensus agreement reached in the thread a while ago. All the rest of the average ones are debatable. Adams might be a reach though so I edited my post and took him out.

But how is Bogut not clearly better than both of them combined, are you completely out of your mind? He's far better defender than both of them and is one of the best passers in the league. His post game is also the best of the three. He's a decent free throw shooter as well and will make a short midrange shot. Healthy Bogut is up there with Cousins, Gasol, Howard. Rebounding numbers also don't mean much, Gasol is one of the best in the league in boxing out, so that means he won't necessarily get the rebound, but somebody on his team will because he did his job. Same goes for Noah, he's an elite playmaker and defender at his position.

Jordan and Drummond are not playing nowhere near the level the top centers do, but you would actually need to see some games to be able to tell that. They are average at best.

Gasol, Bogut, Cousins, Noah, Howard, Jefferson, Horford, Bosh, Chandler and Lopez are all clearly better.

[iznogood]

Cousins is averaging over 16 FGAs, and over 8 FTAs per game, and in only 32 mpg, and is close at 23.5 ppg.

A prime KAJ would get his 20-25 FGAs every game without breaking a sweat. Just get him the ball, and he will score.
20-25 would men that he's averaging 22.5, which is by the way less then what Cousins is averaging.

[Akhenaten]

20-25 would men that he's averaging 22.5, which is by the way less then what Cousins is averaging.

20 to 25 shot attempts is what he means.

[iznogood]

My bad, I guess it's time for me to go to sleep.

Still I agree it would be hard to stay efficient at that amount of shots taken in today's game. There's so much more physical play off the ball and that takes great amount of stamina.

Also I fully agree with what's been said before about how centers receive the ball further from the basket and with less time on the clock. It's also less dangerous to front the post because the help defenders from the other side of the floor are allowed to come closer and help on the lob because there's no illegal defense rule.

You add in fatigue that comes from battling for position and your FG% is going down. I actually believe Wilt would do better in this aspect than KAJ, Kareem never seemed particularly strong to me.

[Akhenaten]

Cousins is averaging over 16 FGAs, and over 8 FTAs per game, and in only 32 mpg, and is close at 23.5 ppg.

A prime KAJ would get his 20-25 FGAs every game without breaking a sweat. Just get him the ball, and he will score.

That's the whole point, what do you do when I take my weakside players and just double him off the ball?

How does he get 20-25 shots in such a scenario?

did you miss the part where the best shot creators in the game who handle the ball a TON and can shoot from ANYWHERE cant even get 20 shots?

Yet a player who is dependent upon being FED the ball in good position possession after possession after possession against defenses that have the leeway to double the post OFF THE BALL would get off 20-25 shots EASILY?:facepalm

you are one stubborn old coon

[LAZERUSS]

That's the whole point, what do you do when I take my weakside players and just double him off the ball?

How does he get 20-25 shots in such a scenario?

did you miss the part where the best shot creators in the game who handle the ball a TON and can shoot from ANYWHERE cant even get 20 shots?

Yet a player who is dependent upon being FED the ball in good position possession after possession after possession against defenses that have the leeway to double the post OFF THE BALL would get off 20-25 shots EASILY?:facepalm

you are one stubborn old coon

Chamberlain, KAJ, and Shaq were the most doubled, and tripled-team centers in NBA history. And Wilt was absolutely BRUTALIZED for the first half of his career.

BTW, a prime scoring Chamberlain had decent range of up to 15+ feet, which included a quick turn-around jumper, and a "Duncan" bank shot. He could certainly start his offense from 15 ft.

Here is just a tiny sample of what a prime KAJ faced, and this was against Bill Walton, who was one of the best defensive centers of his era...(just look at the doubles and triples KAJ faced...and yet, he scored 40 points on 17-23 shooting.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w\

BTW, he didn't even have his starting guards in that game, and the one's he did have, couldn't get the ball past half court.


Wilt?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8646980&postcount=20

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301794&page=2


and how about this...

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html




Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."


--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70


Footage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

BTW, that footage is only about 2% of Wilt's entire career, and other than a 42 point ASG, there is no other known footage from any of his 271 40+ point NBA games.

[DaRkJaWs]

On the topic of wilt: although I'd like to be able to did 2-3 of wilts 40+ games out there, what id really like to see is 1972 game 6 buck vs lakers, which I know is on film somewhere because clips from that game are available, including the final seconds of the game. I almost want to think a wilt hater has access to those tapes and hid them from the general public so they don't see what kind of game he exhibited, so that idiots who leave him out of the top 5 players of all time can drive their false narratives for years without video rebuttal (see the idiots who post on realgm).

[LAZERUSS]

On the topic of wilt: although I'd like to be able to did 2-3 of wilts 40+ games out there, what id really like to see is 1972 game 6 buck vs lakers, which I know is on film somewhere because clips from that game are available, including the final seconds of the game. I almost want to think a wilt hater has access to those tapes and hid them from the general public so they don't see what kind of game he exhibited, so that idiots who leave him out of the top 5 players of all time can drive their false narratives for years without video rebuttal (see the idiots who post on realgm).

Not sure whatever happened to those videos, either, but EVERY game of the '72 WCF's was nationally televised, and in prime time.

And it would have been great to have video footage of all of them, and to count the number of skyhooks that Chamberlain blocked in that series.

And yes, definitely game six footage would show a 35 year old Wilt, not only physically pounding a helpless Kareem down the stretch, but also running the 25 year old KAJ into the ground, as well.