Magic " Kobe is on my top 5 of all time"

[imnew09]

Heard it on the post game interview against Minnesota .

Great recognize great, while haters on this forum stay rent free

[fpliii]

It's all subjective, no problem with that. :confusedshrug:

Somebody could have both, either, or neither in his top 5 and I wouldn't bat an eye.

Gonna suck when guys like Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG retire.

[K Xerxes]

Ask Magic who his top 5 are on different days and he'd probably come up with 10 different names. His opinions are based on the flavor of the week.

[Budadiiii]

Ask Magic who his top 5 are on different days and he'd probably come up with 10 different names. His opinions are based on the flavor of the week.
Bingo.

Magic has no credibility

[SpanishACB]

Heard it on the post game interview against Minnesota .

Great recognize great, while haters on this forum stay rent free

Shaq has a bunch of opinions too

[9erempiree]

It's already happening. Kobe is considered GOAT and all he did was just move up the points list.

Wait till the haters see what happens when he finally retires.

GOAT.

[fpliii]

It's already happening. Kobe is considered GOAT and all he did was just move up the points list.

Wait till the haters see what happens when he finally retires.

GOAT.
You need to bring back the Vern avatar. :lol

[Orlando Magic]

It's all subjective, no problem with that. :confusedshrug:

Somebody could have both, either, or neither in his top 5 and I wouldn't bat an eye.

Gonna suck when guys like Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG retire.

Opinions are subjective, sure.

However, there are more than 5 guys in history that could put up more efficient stats and win more games with equal supporting casts, and that's indisputable. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool. You need not look further than Kobe's "prime" when he missed the playoffs for "proof". No way in hell prime Shaq, prime MJ, prime Duncan, etc, etc... miss the playoffs. Zero percent chance.

Kobe is a longevity king. Kobe is also an all-time great, and by all-time I mean indisputably top 50. All things considered, I personally have him in my top 15. If we're just looking at accolades and accomplishments, he is easily top 10 and bordering on top 5 all time. If we're looking at actual impact on the basketball court and helping teams win and making teammates look better than they are, he drops way, way down to somewhere around 30 or further.

The most hilarious thing about him and his career is that I don't think there's ever been such a polarizing character in the history of sports that brought on such a wide array of opinions from people.

MJ had his detractors and people that disliked him but there's nobody that would rank him outside of their top 5 all-time. Nobody that is giving their honest opinion, anyways.

And yet, you'll find a wide range of opinions on Kobe... some say #1, others will put him 15-20. Part of it is the market he plays for in terms of how he gets ranked so high, and I think the other part of it is the fact that people desperately wanted the next MJ, and since Kobe is a bastardized MJ in every imaginable way, they clung to him. But he's not MJ. Never was, never will be. Even if he ends up with 8 titles.

I've just... never seen a player that was SO incredibly ****ing good, and yet SO incredibly ****ing overrated at the same time. Tom Brady is probably the next closest thing, I suppose.

[AlphaWolf24]

Opinions are subjective, sure.

However, there are more than 5 guys in history that could put up more efficient stats and win more games with equal supporting casts, and that's indisputable. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool. You need not look further than Kobe's "prime" when he missed the playoffs for "proof". No way in hell prime Shaq, prime MJ, prime Duncan, etc, etc... miss the playoffs. Zero percent chance.

Kobe is a longevity king. Kobe is also an all-time great, and by all-time I mean indisputably top 50. All things considered, I personally have him in my top 15. If we're just looking at accolades and accomplishments, he is easily top 10 and bordering on top 5 all time. If we're looking at actual impact on the basketball court and helping teams win and making teammates look better than they are, he drops way, way down to somewhere around 30 or further.

The most hilarious thing about him and his career is that I don't think there's ever been such a polarizing character in the history of sports that brought on such a wide array of opinions from people.

MJ had his detractors and people that disliked him but there's nobody that would rank him outside of their top 5 all-time. Nobody that is giving their honest opinion, anyways.

And yet, you'll find a wide range of opinions on Kobe... some say #1, others will put him 15-20. Part of it is the market he plays for in terms of how he gets ranked so high, and I think the other part of it is the fact that people desperately wanted the next MJ, and since Kobe is a bastardized MJ in every imaginable way, they clung to him. But he's not MJ. Never was, never will be. Even if he ends up with 8 titles.

I've just... never seen a player that was SO incredibly ****ing good, and yet SO incredibly ****ing overrated at the same time. Tom Brady is probably the next closest thing, I suppose.

Bolded ...

that's your opinion and it doesn't reflect what actually happens or happened in real life....

nor does it reflect what the majority of players/coaches ( that actually played with Kobe in the real N...B...A...) believe.

Most fans/media have Kobe in the top 4 - 7 alltime range....

Other Laker greats say Kobe is the greatest Laker of alltime...

You are right...Kobe is not MJ.....I've seen Kobe do things that MJ never did.....on the flip side......everything I seen MJ do......Kobe did.






recognize game when it's in yer face.

[Mr. Jabbar]

are we supposed to act surprised?

[AlphaWolf24]

are we supposed to act surprised?


seriously....I don't think anyone's surprised....

[imnew09]

Opinions are subjective, sure.

However, there are more than 5 guys in history that could put up more efficient stats and win more games with equal supporting casts, and that's indisputable. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool. You need not look further than Kobe's "prime" when he missed the playoffs for "proof". No way in hell prime Shaq, prime MJ, prime Duncan, etc, etc... miss the playoffs. Zero percent chance.

Kobe is a longevity king. Kobe is also an all-time great, and by all-time I mean indisputably top 50. All things considered, I personally have him in my top 15. If we're just looking at accolades and accomplishments, he is easily top 10 and bordering on top 5 all time. If we're looking at actual impact on the basketball court and helping teams win and making teammates look better than they are, he drops way, way down to somewhere around 30 or further.

The most hilarious thing about him and his career is that I don't think there's ever been such a polarizing character in the history of sports that brought on such a wide array of opinions from people.

MJ had his detractors and people that disliked him but there's nobody that would rank him outside of their top 5 all-time. Nobody that is giving their honest opinion, anyways.

And yet, you'll find a wide range of opinions on Kobe... some say #1, others will put him 15-20. Part of it is the market he plays for in terms of how he gets ranked so high, and I think the other part of it is the fact that people desperately wanted the next MJ, and since Kobe is a bastardized MJ in every imaginable way, they clung to him. But he's not MJ. Never was, never will be. Even if he ends up with 8 titles.

I've just... never seen a player that was SO incredibly ****ing good, and yet SO incredibly ****ing overrated at the same time. Tom Brady is probably the next closest thing, I suppose.


TLDR.

Still bitter about 2009 Final

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.

But where is the team impact???:roll:

[Orlando Magic]

Bolded ...

that's your opinion and it doesn't reflect what actually happens or happened in real life....

nor does it reflect what the majority of players/coaches ( that actually played with Kobe in the real N...B...A...) believe.

Most fans/media have Kobe in the top 4 - 7 alltime range....

Other Laker greats say Kobe is the greatest Laker of alltime...

You are right...Kobe is not MJ.....I've seen Kobe do things that MJ never did.....on the flip side......everything I seen MJ do......Kobe did.






recognize game when it's in yer face.

Actually, it does reflect what happened in real life, and I know that's hard to accept, but it is what happened.

1) He missed the playoffs in his prime.
2) He then got bounced in the first round twice in a row until he was gifted the best frontcourt in the league for the second time in his career.

So... please don't tell me about what happened or did not happen in real life, as you can't even string together a coherent sentence, let alone a coherent thought.


Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.

But where is the team impact???:roll:

See above.

[pastis]

top 15 all time.

magic, a lifetime laker, no wonder that he isnt objective

[dh144498]

Kobe has a good case for top 5. He's definitely top 10 all time, no doubt about that.

[K Xerxes]

Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.

But where is the team impact???:roll:

And the majority of them as a sidekick to a player with very arguably the greatest peak in NBA history.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Actually, it does reflect what happened in real life, and I know that's hard to accept, but it is what happened.

1) He missed the playoffs in his prime.
2) He then got bounced in the first round twice in a row until he was gifted the best frontcourt in the league for the second time in his career.

So... please don't tell me about what happened or did not happen in real life, as you can't even string together a coherent sentence, let alone a coherent thought.



See above.

How do other NBA legends fare in the postseason when you ignore their 7 best postseason runs? :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And the majority of them as a sidekick to a player with very arguably the greatest peak in NBA history.

Only 4 players in NBA history have more Finals MVPs than Kobe Bryant. :confusedshrug:

[Orlando Magic]

How do other NBA legends fare in the postseason when you ignore their 7 best postseason runs? :oldlol:

While I do, on a level of personal amusement, enjoy your ability to click the laughing icon on the right hand side of the screen when you fail to make a substantial argument, I do assure you that it doesn't actually add anything to your stance. If anything, it solidifies the idea that you're not worth conversing with.

I also find it interesting that you consider his 7 best postseason runs to be the ones in which the teams he was on enjoyed success. The teams with the best frontcourt in the league at the given time, no less. By the way... he's a backcourt player, in case you were wondering.

[K Xerxes]

Only 4 players in NBA history have more Finals MVPs than Kobe Bryant. :confusedshrug:

And only 4 players in NBA history have more Finals MVPs than Willis Weed. So what? The point is that not all HOF team mates are equal, so it's incredibly misleading to say: "Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team."

Btw, it would be 5 players if the award existed in Russell's time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

While I do, on a level of personal amusement, enjoy your ability to click the laughing icon on the right hand side of the screen when you fail to make a substantial argument, I do assure you that it doesn't actually add anything to your stance. If anything, it solidifies the idea that you're not worth conversing with.

I also find it interesting that you consider his 7 best postseason runs to be the ones in which the teams he was on enjoyed success. The teams with the best frontcourt in the league at the given time, no less. By the way... he's a backcourt player, in case you were wondering.

You wrote a long ass paragraph to whine about an emoticon and still said nothing.:oldlol:

He also had the worst backcourt support in the league too. :confusedshrug:

[Orlando Magic]

You wrote a long ass paragraph to whine about an emoticon and still said nothing.:oldlol:

He also had the worst backcourt support in the league too. :confusedshrug:

You did it again.

You do realize that outside of maybe 2-3 players in league history, of which Kobe was not one, frontcourts are what generate wins, right? Right.

Basketball is inherently a tall/big man's game. Sorry to disappoint you, once again.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And only 4 players in NBA history have more Finals MVPs than Willis Weed. So what? The point is that not all HOF team mates are equal, so it's incredibly misleading to say: "Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team."

Btw, it would be 5 players if the award existed in Russell's time.

Top 5 in Finals MVPs.
5 rings.
Top 2 in all star appearances.
Top 3 in all defensive team awards.
Top 3 in all league awards.

But but but but Top 30 in "making teammates better" or " team impact" though :oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Kobe has a good case for top 5. He's definitely top 10 all time, no doubt about that.

A Spurs fan saying this mad respect. :applause:

[Orlando Magic]

Top 5 in Finals MVPs.
5 rings.
Top 2 in all star appearances.
Top 3 in all defensive team awards.
Top 3 in all league awards.

But but but but Top 30 in "making teammates better" or " team impact" though :oldlol:

You have yet to make a single post in this entire thread that doesn't have an emoticon.

Your arguments are emotional, irrational, biased and invalid. Have fun. ggkthxbye

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You did it again.

You do realize that outside of maybe 2-3 players in league history, of which Kobe was not one, frontcourts are what generate wins, right? Right.

Basketball is inherently a tall/big man's game. Sorry to disappoint you, once again.

It was a big man's game until Kobe willed a playoff win virgin, a drug addict and a one legged man child to back to back titles while supported with the worst backcourt support in the league. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You have yet to make a single post in this entire thread that doesn't have an emoticon.

Your arguments are emotional, irrational, biased and invalid. Have fun. ggkthxbye

I slay you and your thesauruses in style. That's why you are worrying about emoticons rather than actually debating any of the truth seeping into your soul. Run along now and lick your wounds. :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

Actually, it does reflect what happened in real life, and I know that's hard to accept, but it is what happened.

1) He missed the playoffs in his prime.
2) He then got bounced in the first round twice in a row until he was gifted the best frontcourt in the league for the second time in his career.

So... please don't tell me about what happened or did not happen in real life, as you can't even string together a coherent sentence, let alone a coherent thought.



See above.

so you gauge Kobe's ability to win and make his teammates better by ...

A) Not making the playoffs in 2005 ( severely sprained his ankle and missed the last 17 games) Lakers were actually in the 7th seed before he went out.

Luke Walton , Chris Mihm and Chucky Atkins!...could prime T MAC get that team in the playoffs while missing the whole last Month of the season?????

B)Healthy Kobe gets bounced in the first round against the #1 ranked WC team....while making Smush Parker and Kwame Brown relevent...

once they leave the Lakers they are never heard from again...

C) Lakers were already the #1 team in the west before Gasol ever showed up...Kobe helped Bynum become a legitimate Big Man.....Once Bynum left Kobe...he played 1 game and isn't in the league anymore.

Kobe in his prime = 28PPG 5EB 5AST 56TS% 10 winning seasons , 1 losing season and 7 NBA Final appearances


yet he missed the playoffs 1 year because he couldn't help his team the last month of the season.......there for he doesn't really help his team....makes sense.


please don't talk hoop with me.....you don't watch basketball...and quite frankly....you aint on my level






(thumps chest)....next

[AlphaWolf24]

You did it again.

You do realize that outside of maybe 2-3 players in league history, of which Kobe was not one, frontcourts are what generate wins, right? Right.

Basketball is inherently a tall/big man's game. Sorry to disappoint you, once again.


please show us what players won titles without a froncourt!

wait for it....



























wait for it....











smiley face con!!:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Hey Yo]

Back in 2013, Magic was very disgruntled when LeBron left him off his top 3 all-time list. James said "MJ, Dr. J and Bird"

Magic..."
NBA Championship rings are all that matter; Jordan 6, Me 5, Bird 3, LeBron 2 and Dr. J 1.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/22/magic-johnson-fires-back-at-lebron-for-not-having-him-in-top-three/

If that were the case, then both Magic and Kobe wouldn't be top 5. They'd be tied for 14th all-time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_players_with_most_championships

Just another example of why Magic is a dope.

[Droid101]

2) He then got bounced in the first round twice in a row until he was gifted the best frontcourt in the league for the second time in his career.

This retarded shit again?

You realize that before the Pau trade happened, the Lakers were 1st seed in the West right?

You are a bad person.

[AlphaWolf24]

Back in 2013, Magic was very disgruntled when LeBron left him off his top 3 all-time list. James said "MJ, Dr. J and Bird"

Magic..."
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/22/magic-johnson-fires-back-at-lebron-for-not-having-him-in-top-three/

If that were the case, then both Magic and Kobe wouldn't be top 5. They'd be tied for 14th all-time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_players_with_most_championships

Just another example of why Magic is a dope.


are u serious and Jordan would be 10th???.....the Horry Kerr argument??..



Magic is speaking in terms of elite superstars.....


calling other people a dope...when you can't even see the difference between Ron Harper and Michael Jordan.

[dh144498]

This retarded shit again?

You realize that before the Pau trade happened, the Lakers were 1st seed in the West right?

You are a bad person.

rekt

:oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

are u serious and Jordan would be 10th???.....the Horry Kerr argument??..



Magic is speaking in terms of elite superstars.....


calling other people a dope...when you can't even see the difference between Ron Harper and Michael Jordan.
Don't kill the messenger, just using Magic's logic that "rings are all that matters"

[dh144498]

Don't kill the messenger, just using Magic's logic that "rings are all that matters"

pretty sure it's implied that he's talking about elite players.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/540/811/e45.png

[AlphaWolf24]

Don't kill the messenger, just using Magic's logic that "rings are all that matters"


yes...it's important to be able to help yer team win...in the game of basketball....

I'm trying not to kill the messenger.....just explain the diffrence between a player like Michael Jordan and Jim Luscutoff or Robert Horry...


1 is an elite player who can take over games consistently and is recognized as an alltime great player......and the others are Good players who can play great sometimes....but not alltime




yer welcome

[Hey Yo]

pretty sure it's implied that he's talking about elite players.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/540/811/e45.png
If that were the case then why no mention of Russell or Kareem who both have more than himself? Why no mention of Kobe, Duncan or Shaq who have more than Bird?


When it comes to Magic, nothing is implied. That's what makes him so dumb.

[Levity]

so you gauge Kobe's ability to win and make his teammates better by ...

A) Not making the playoffs in 2005 ( severely sprained his ankle and missed the last 17 games) Lakers were actually in the 7th seed before he went out.

Luke Walton , Chris Mihm and Chucky Atkins!...could prime T MAC get that team in the playoffs while missing the whole last Month of the season?????

B)Healthy Kobe gets bounced in the first round against the #1 ranked WC team....while making Smush Parker and Kwame Brown relevent...

once they leave the Lakers they are never heard from again...

C) Lakers were already the #1 team in the west before Gasol ever showed up...Kobe helped Bynum become a legitimate Big Man.....Once Bynum left Kobe...he played 1 game and isn't in the league anymore.

Kobe in his prime = 28PPG 5EB 5AST 56TS% 10 winning seasons , 1 losing season and 7 NBA Final appearances


yet he missed the playoffs 1 year because he couldn't help his team the last month of the season.......there for he doesn't really help his team....makes sense.


please don't talk hoop with me.....you don't watch basketball...and quite frankly....you aint on my level






(thumps chest)....next

love this guy

[gts]

so you gauge Kobe's ability to win and make his teammates better by ...

A) Not making the playoffs in 2005 ( severely sprained his ankle and missed the last 17 games) Lakers were actually in the 7th seed before he went out.

Luke Walton , Chris Mihm and Chucky Atkins!...could prime T MAC get that team in the playoffs while missing the whole last Month of the season?????

B)Healthy Kobe gets bounced in the first round against the #1 ranked WC team....while making Smush Parker and Kwame Brown relevent...

once they leave the Lakers they are never heard from again...

C) Lakers were already the #1 team in the west before Gasol ever showed up...Kobe helped Bynum become a legitimate Big Man.....Once Bynum left Kobe...he played 1 game and isn't in the league anymore.

Kobe in his prime = 28PPG 5EB 5AST 56TS% 10 winning seasons , 1 losing season and 7 NBA Final appearances


yet he missed the playoffs 1 year because he couldn't help his team the last month of the season.......there for he doesn't really help his team....makes sense.


please don't talk hoop with me.....you don't watch basketball...and quite frankly....you aint on my level






(thumps chest)....next

Christ Alpha give the kid his balls back...:lol

[Heavincent]

- Only player in the 30K/6K/6K club

- 3rd all time in regular season AND playoff scoring

- One of two perimeter players in the top 10 on the all time scoring list. The other guy? Michael Jordan.

- Averaged 30/6/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs between 08 and 10. Made 3 Finals appearances and won 2 titles. All of this came while playing against the brutal western conference. 11 of the 12 teams he played in this span won 50 or more games.

- Was clearly one of the best players in the league throughout the 3 peat. Elite perimeter defender and consistent 25-30 PPG guy. Had back to back 45+/10+ games on the road in the playoffs in 01.

- One of the greatest passing non point guards ever, contrary to what the detractors would have you believe. He led all 5 Laker title teams in assists.

- Had some of the most insane hot streaks in history. 4 straight 50+ point games in 07, two of which were 60+ point games. That's ****ing unheard of. People go apeshit when a guy drops 50 ONCE today. Kobe did it 4 straight ****ing times. Also had multiple months in which he averaged 40+ points. Show me someone who's doing that today...yeah, exactly. Oh, bbbbut his peak play isn't that impressive! Get real.

- One of the longest primes in history. He played like a supserstar from 99-00 all the way to 2012-13, with the exception of 04-05 when he battled injuries.

People act like the guy was Joe Johnson or something and just happened to luck his way into all of these accolades...it's ****ing ridiculous. HINT: Accolades and on court performance are synonymous with each other.

[SexSymbol]

Opinions are subjective, sure.

However, there are more than 5 guys in history that could put up more efficient stats and win more games with equal supporting casts, and that's indisputable. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool. You need not look further than Kobe's "prime" when he missed the playoffs for "proof". No way in hell prime Shaq, prime MJ, prime Duncan, etc, etc... miss the playoffs. Zero percent chance.

Kobe is a longevity king. Kobe is also an all-time great, and by all-time I mean indisputably top 50. All things considered, I personally have him in my top 15. If we're just looking at accolades and accomplishments, he is easily top 10 and bordering on top 5 all time. If we're looking at actual impact on the basketball court and helping teams win and making teammates look better than they are, he drops way, way down to somewhere around 30 or further.

The most hilarious thing about him and his career is that I don't think there's ever been such a polarizing character in the history of sports that brought on such a wide array of opinions from people.

MJ had his detractors and people that disliked him but there's nobody that would rank him outside of their top 5 all-time. Nobody that is giving their honest opinion, anyways.

And yet, you'll find a wide range of opinions on Kobe... some say #1, others will put him 15-20. Part of it is the market he plays for in terms of how he gets ranked so high, and I think the other part of it is the fact that people desperately wanted the next MJ, and since Kobe is a bastardized MJ in every imaginable way, they clung to him. But he's not MJ. Never was, never will be. Even if he ends up with 8 titles.

I've just... never seen a player that was SO incredibly ****ing good, and yet SO incredibly ****ing overrated at the same time. Tom Brady is probably the next closest thing, I suppose.

One of the most stupid things ever said on ISH

[NBASTATMAN]

so you gauge Kobe's ability to win and make his teammates better by ...

A) Not making the playoffs in 2005 ( severely sprained his ankle and missed the last 17 games) Lakers were actually in the 7th seed before he went out.

Luke Walton , Chris Mihm and Chucky Atkins!...could prime T MAC get that team in the playoffs while missing the whole last Month of the season?????

B)Healthy Kobe gets bounced in the first round against the #1 ranked WC team....while making Smush Parker and Kwame Brown relevent...

once they leave the Lakers they are never heard from again...

C) Lakers were already the #1 team in the west before Gasol ever showed up...Kobe helped Bynum become a legitimate Big Man.....Once Bynum left Kobe...he played 1 game and isn't in the league anymore.

Kobe in his prime = 28PPG 5EB 5AST 56TS% 10 winning seasons , 1 losing season and 7 NBA Final appearances


yet he missed the playoffs 1 year because he couldn't help his team the last month of the season.......there for he doesn't really help his team....makes sense.


please don't talk hoop with me.....you don't watch basketball...and quite frankly....you aint on my level






(thumps chest)....next



This has to make you cringe if you are a real Laker fan.. Dude is a IDIOT:roll: :facepalm :no: :biggums:

It was Odom who missed the Last 18 games or so.. And because of this THE LAKERS sucked and went 3-18 the rest of the season with Kobe and Caron Butler.. Lamar played a couple of those games during that losing stretch


66 Starts, 28 Wins, 38 Losses, This is what kobe did that season... LOL...I am laughing at your dumb ass not Kobe.. Who def has my respect..

[funnystuff]

Passed MJ at the free throw line.

[SexSymbol]

This has to make you cringe if you are a real Laker fan.. Dude is a IDIOT:roll: :facepalm :no: :biggums:

It was Odom who missed the Last 18 games or so.. And because of this THE LAKERS sucked and went 3-18 the rest of the season with Kobe and Caron Butler.. Lamar played a couple of those games during that losing stretch


66 Starts, 28 Wins, 38 Losses, This is what kobe did that season... LOL...I am laughing at your dumb ass not Kobe.. Who def has my respect..
Ok so alpha made a mistake. Which still doesn't take away his point that Kobe had to play with nothing with nagging injuries lingering him all season.
When Odom went out, the only other serviceable, though streaky, player was out for the Lakers it was literally an injury riddled Kobe against the world.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ok so alpha made a mistake. Which still doesn't take away his point that Kobe had to play with nothing with nagging injuries lingering him all season.
When Odom went out, the only other serviceable, though streaky, player was out for the Lakers it was literally an injury riddled Kobe against the world.

Wolf didn't only make a mistake, he just proved he became a Kobe fan post 81. Hah!

[tpols]

If that were the case then why no mention of Russell or Kareem who both have more than himself? Why no mention of Kobe, Duncan or Shaq who have more than Bird?


When it comes to Magic, nothing is implied. That's what makes him so dumb.

Did you read the quote?

Lebron said his top 3 was MJ, Bird, and Dr. J. And magic listed the ring counts of each in that comparison as a refutation. He wasnt doing a giant overview of history.. just addressing Lebrons choices.

[SexSymbol]

Wolf didn't only make a mistake, he just proved he became a Kobe fan post 81. Hah!
How?
Do you remember what was happening on your favorite team and which players were injured 9-10 years ago? No you don't.

[NBASTATMAN]

Ok so alpha made a mistake. Which still doesn't take away his point that Kobe had to play with nothing with nagging injuries lingering him all season.
When Odom went out, the only other serviceable, though streaky, player was out for the Lakers it was literally an injury riddled Kobe against the world.


I can't believe you are all idiots... LOL... He haD one injury to his ankle and that is all... You guys need to get a clue... THIS IS TOO EASY ... Poor Kobe deserves smarter fans... :roll:

I do believe Kobe is top ten all time.. In my opinion he deserves to be anywhere from 7-10.. I base this on his longevity and his abilities.. Have a good one all.. MERRY CHRISTMAS

[NBASTATMAN]

Wolf didn't only make a mistake, he just proved he became a Kobe fan post 81. Hah!


THE WORSE PART IS EVERYONE WAS CONGRATULATING HIM.. OH NO .. :roll:

Most of these people didn't watch him till a couple of seasons ago.. Either way Kobe is one of the best.. You can't take that away from him...

[NBASTATMAN]

Back in 2013, Magic was very disgruntled when LeBron left him off his top 3 all-time list. James said "MJ, Dr. J and Bird"

Magic..."
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/22/magic-johnson-fires-back-at-lebron-for-not-having-him-in-top-three/

If that were the case, then both Magic and Kobe wouldn't be top 5. They'd be tied for 14th all-time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_players_with_most_championships

Just another example of why Magic is a dope.


Hondo is better than mj and magic :facepalm

[stalkerforlife]

Any objective person knows Kobe is top 5 all time.

It's just too hard to ignore.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How?
Do you remember what was happening on your favorite team and which players were injured 9-10 years ago? No you don't.
Do I remember when my favorite player had a significant injury, where he missed a quarter of the season? Umm, yeah :confusedshrug:


THE WORSE PART IS EVERYONE WAS CONGRATULATING HIM.. OH NO .. :roll:

Most of these people didn't watch him till a couple of seasons ago.. Either way Kobe is one of the best.. You can't take that away from him...
Kobe's brilliant 2006 season birthed some of the dumbest fans on the face of the planet. It's no wonder dude is so damned polarizing. :lol

[Hey Yo]

Did you read the quote?

Lebron said his top 3 was MJ, Bird, and Dr. J. And magic listed the ring counts of each in that comparison as a refutation. He wasnt doing a giant overview of history.. just addressing Lebrons choices.
Semi-understandable when you put it in that perspective, but why would he mention LeBron's 2 rings?

James said who his 3 greatest players are. (regardless of ring total but just happened to be in that order)

If Magic didn't see ring total as a criteria, then he would have just agreed with James 3 players, w/o getting pissed off and purposely mentioning himself.

[Kblaze8855]

- One of the greatest passing non point guards ever, contrary to what the detractors would have you believe. He led all 5 Laker title teams in assists.

On reading that I thought of 24 non pointguard passers id have to put over him. And I got to 26 before I typed it. Im not even counting a number of guys who were about Kobes size who did at times play point but played most of their career as swingmen(Reggie Theus...Penny....Grant HIll).

Im not gonna list names so I dont influence it but....just when you have a minute.

You cant come up with 20 better?

Or would you extend "One of the greatest" into that range?

Which for the record id take no issue with.

[bizil]

Let's say Magic takes himself out of the equation. Peak wise, his top five could very well be (no order):

MJ
Bird
Kobe
Wilt
Kareem

In my opinion, that's EASILY a very logical top five to have. I'm not sure who the other four are in Magic's top five. But I would ASSUME he would have Bird, MJ, and Kareem at least in there. And frankly, Wilt should be in EVERYBODY'S top five peak value wise. I'm not talking GOAT wise, I'm just saying peak value wise that's a top five many people could rightfully have. And even GOAT wise, Kobe's resume is EASILY top six-seven caliber. Not saying it is, but he certainly has a case.

I think the top 10 GOAT as of now are: (no order)

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russ
Magic
Kobe
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron

I think MJ, Kareem, and Magic are for sure in the top five. But other than that, u can rank the list in numerous ways. So in essence, I think it's MORE ABOUT having the proper guys in the top 10 GOAT. From there, most of them could be ranked in numerous ways. But I gotta say, Dr. J is a unique case due to his ABA days. If u couldn't his ABA days, then Doc is not only in the top 10 GOAT. I think he's the GOAT SF narrowly over Bird. Line up Doc's resume, longevity being great, AND transcendant star power next to Bird's. It EASILY matches up to Bird!

[ImKobe]

Any objective person knows Kobe is top 5 all time.

It's just too hard to ignore.

West: Kobe is the GOAT Laker
Magic: Kobe is the GOAT Laker, top 5 all-time
Shaq: Kobe is the GOAT Laker

ISH: Kobe is a role player that was lucky to be carried to 5 rings

:rolleyes:

[tpols]

Semi-understandable when you put it in that perspective, but why would he mention LeBron's 2 rings?

James said who his 3 greatest players are. (regardless of ring total but just happened to be in that order)

If Magic didn't see ring total as a criteria, then he would have just agreed with James 3 players, w/o getting pissed off and purposely mentioning himself.
I think magic mentioned lebrons ring count to take a shot at him for leaving him out of his top 3.

[AlphaWolf24]

This has to make you cringe if you are a real Laker fan.. Dude is a IDIOT:roll: :facepalm :no: :biggums:

It was Odom who missed the Last 18 games or so.. And because of this THE LAKERS sucked and went 3-18 the rest of the season with Kobe and Caron Butler.. Lamar played a couple of those games during that losing stretch


66 Starts, 28 Wins, 38 Losses, This is what kobe did that season... LOL...I am laughing at your dumb ass not Kobe.. Who def has my respect..


WTF are you talking about?...

Kobe missed a whole month of playing in 2005....

yes it was Jan - Feb not March - April ( like I thought)....

I am going strictly off of memory and I smoked alot this weekend...




F' yall I'm going off of Brain cells not Google.

[Marchesk]

pretty sure it's implied that he's talking about elite players.

Hondo 8/8
Sam Jones 10/10

:confusedshrug:

[AlphaWolf24]

Hondo 8/8
Sam Jones 10/10

:confusedshrug:


those guys couldn't dribble with their left hand....couldn't shoot with both feet off of the ground also...



( weak era/skill criteria Jordan stans use when anyone brings up Bill Russell)

[Marchesk]

those guys couldn't dribble with their left hand....couldn't shoot with both feet off of the ground also...



( weak era/skill criteria Jordan stans use when anyone brings up Bill Russell)

Hondo is top 20 all-time, so that should qualify him as elite. Sam Jones is probably underrated. He played the team game.

[greymatter]

On reading that I thought of 24 non pointguard passers id have to put over him. And I got to 26 before I typed it. Im not even counting a number of guys who were about Kobes size who did at times play point but played most of their career as swingmen(Reggie Theus...Penny....Grant HIll).



I'd like to see your list.

Mine for starters:

Among centers: Sabonis, Chamberlain, Russell, Noah, Divac, both Gasols
Forwards: Bird, Lebron, Grant Hill, Pippen, KG
SGs: Jerry West, Jordan, Maravich, Penny

I'd like to say Tmac, Wade, Drexler, and Chris Mullin were all better...but it's hard for me to say that they were clearly better beyond a doubt like I could for the above.

[Kblaze8855]

Counting guys from your list but not mine(mostly just forgot them) id be at 34.

And Drexler was on it. Mullin was to begin with as well. I intended to post it at the time and his inclusion I knew would start a whole...thing. And I wasnt up for it.

Mullin was nice...he just isnt remembered for his passing.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'd like to see your list.

Mine for starters:

Among centers: Sabonis, Chamberlain, Russell, Noah, Divac, both Gasols
Forwards: Bird, Lebron, Grant Hill, Pippen, KG
SGs: Jerry West, Jordan, Maravich, Penny

I'd like to say Tmac, Wade, Drexler, and Chris Mullin were all better...but it's hard for me to say that they were clearly better beyond a doubt like I could for the above.

Here is my list

http://i.imgur.com/ijB99wq.png

Kobe is primed to pass every name on yours by the end of the year.... if he hasn't already. :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

There are players above Kobe on that list who arent better passers than he is....

Thats because the all time assists list isnt the same thing as the all time best passers list...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There are players above Kobe on that list who arent better passers than he is....

Thats because the all time assists list isnt the same thing as the all time best passers list...

Right because one is based on actual unequivocal facts and the other on feelings.

You have 34 better non PG passers on your list while Kobe is sitting at 30th all time in assists including point guards and still going strong. :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

So if I tell you I think Kobe is as good as Derek Harper as a passer...perhaps better...you have a problem with that?

[MastaKilla]

Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post that i've ever seen. Criminally underrated passer. The guy averaged 7 assist in a finals series while also averaging 30+ points at the same time, he can do it all folks

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post that i've ever seen.

See much of Larry Bird?

If not....I understand.

[greymatter]

Here is my list

http://i.imgur.com/ijB99wq.png

Kobe is primed to pass every name on yours by the end of the year.... if he hasn't already. :confusedshrug:

If you'd bothered to take a few seconds to uh....actually read, you might have found out that the list is of strictly non-PGs who have/had better passing skills than Kobe.

You're not confused, just lazy and/or ignorant.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So if I tell you I think Kobe is as good as Derek Harper as a passer...perhaps better...you have a problem with that?

I don't have a problem with anything anyone posts on these boards.

[greymatter]

Counting guys from your list but not mine(mostly just forgot them) id be at 34.

And Drexler was on it. Mullin was to begin with as well. I intended to post it at the time and his inclusion I knew would start a whole...thing. And I wasnt up for it.

Mullin was nice...he just isnt remembered for his passing.

I just realized I'd completely forgotten Bill Walton.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If you'd bothered to take a few seconds to uh....actually read, you might have found out that the list is of strictly non-PGs who have/had better passing skills than Kobe.

You're not confused, just lazy and/or ignorant.

Yeah Kobe will be ranked #1 for non point guards when he retires.

He's ranked 30th right now including point guards. :confusedshrug:

But yeah go ahead and continue your list of players below Kobe in career assist totals who are clearly better passers than him.

[greymatter]

Yeah Kobe will be ranked #1 for non point guards when he retires.

He's ranked 30th right now including point guards. :confusedshrug:

But yeah go ahead and continue your list of players below Kobe in career assist totals who are clearly better passers than him.

Guess that means Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams and Babe Ruth by your logic.

Not lazy; but definitely ignorant/stupid. Congrats?

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah Kobe will be ranked #1 for non point guards when he retires.

He's ranked 30th right now including point guards. :confusedshrug:

But yeah go ahead and continue your list of players below Kobe in career assist totals who are clearly better passers than him.

People are behind him and arguably better passers. People are ahead of him and arguably worse.

Teams pass the ball a couple hundred times a night and might get 22 assists. The idea that they are the same thing is too laughable to explain in depth.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

People are behind him and arguably better passers. People are ahead of him and arguably worse.

Teams pass the ball a couple hundred times a night and might get 22 assists. The idea that they are the same thing is too laughable to explain in depth.

Is their any evidence to suggest Kobe Bryant doesn't have great passes not accounted for as assists at a similar rate as every other player in NBA history?

[greymatter]

Counting guys from your list but not mine(mostly just forgot them) id be at 34.

And Drexler was on it. Mullin was to begin with as well. I intended to post it at the time and his inclusion I knew would start a whole...thing. And I wasnt up for it.

Mullin was nice...he just isnt remembered for his passing.

Yeah, Mullin definitely wasn't remembered for his passing. I barely saw him play except for his highlights on NBA inside stuff. It wasn't until I watched the 92 Olympics when I saw that he was clearly a very good passer. His passing was definitely overshadowed by Tim Hardaway's flashiness.

[Kblaze8855]

When the only evidence you want to consider is math...there is no evidence of most anything passing wise.

Beyond that you get into proving a negative which is just lazy arguing.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

When the only evidence you want to consider is math...there is no evidence of most anything passing wise.

Beyond that you get into proving a negative which is just lazy arguing.

Fine. Do you personally believe despite having no actual evidence that Kobe has great passes not accounted for assists at a different rate than other players in NBA history such that it makes sense to ignore his dominant assist total?

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post that i've ever seen. Criminally underrated passer. The guy averaged 7 assist in a finals series while also averaging 30+ points at the same time, he can do it all folks

...

Kobe fans try to make out "entry passing" to a guy like ****ing Shaquille O'Neal a damn SKILL.... :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

...

Kobe fans try to make out "entry passing" to a guy like ****ing Shaquille O'Neal a damn SKILL.... :roll:

How do Kobe Assists total with Shaq compare to his assist totals after he left? :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

How do Kobe Assists total with Shaq compare to his assist totals after he left? :confusedshrug:


... WHAT?

[MastaKilla]

...

Kobe fans try to make out "entry passing" to a guy like ****ing Shaquille O'Neal a damn SKILL.... :roll:

Kobe had his highest 2 highest apg seasons without Shaq

averaged 7 assist per game in a finals series w/o Shaq

[Kblaze8855]

What I believe...is that Kobe like everyone who ever played...cant have his ability to pass be measured only by his assist total. Because of this...I rank many players with less assists ahead of him...and some(At a glance...arguably 3) ahead of him behind him.

Nobody should need it explained that being healthy a long time doesnt mean your passing was better than people who played half as long. Nor does a great passer...in an offense that doesnt cater to it generating assists...worse at passing than they would be elsewhere. Not like Brad Miller learned to pass on the Kings...he was just asked to use his passing to generate shots.

You know all this. Nobody could actually believe a career assist total shows who the best passer is. We would all put Bill Walton on a list of best non point passers...yet hes behind George Gervin in assists....a noted and proud ballhog who didnt like to pass or excel at it when he tried.

His assist total...pretty much....irrelevant information when the issue is...is he a better passer than Walton.

So I guess you are just...****ing around the way people do. I dont see why...but...whatever. Do you.

[Milbuck]

...

Kobe fans try to make out "entry passing" to a guy like ****ing Shaquille O'Neal a damn SKILL.... :roll:
You are so laughably ignorant on this stuff, it's really incredible how you talk about this with so much confidence when you clearly haven't watched the games in question.

I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that.

- Phil Jackson on Kobe in the 2001 playoffs

But yeah, Kobe was totally just a glorified Derek Fisher who brought the ball up the court and dumped it down to Shaq.

[dh144498]

You are so laughably ignorant on this stuff, it's really incredible how you talk about this with so much confidence when you clearly haven't watched the games in question.

I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that.

- Phil Jackson on Kobe in the 2001 playoffs

But yeah, Kobe was totally just a glorified Derek Fisher who brought the ball up the court and dumped it down to Shaq.


Phil said that?

:eek:

[ArbitraryWater]

You are so laughably ignorant on this stuff, it's really incredible how you talk about this with so much confidence when you clearly haven't watched the games in question.

I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that.

- Phil Jackson on Kobe in the 2001 playoffs

But yeah, Kobe was totally just a glorified Derek Fisher who brought the ball up the court and dumped it down to Shaq.


"Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post I ever saw"

.... No. Entry passing isn't a damn skill.

It's what you're supposed to be doing with M.D.E Shaq, and Gasol, Bynum, etc...

I don't even know why you're blabbering all off-topic getting sensitive because it comes to Bean (straw man on your last sentence).

Side with MastaKilla, wise Milbuck.

[MastaKilla]

"Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post I ever saw"

.... No. Entry passing isn't a damn skill.

It's what you're supposed to be doing with M.D.E Shaq, and Gasol, Bynum, etc...

I don't even know why you're blabbering all off-topic getting sensitive because it comes to Bean (straw man on your last sentence).

Side with MastaKilla, wise Milbuck.

creator for big men doesn't mean entry pass you moron :roll: :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

.... No. Entry passing isn't a damn skill.

Stop.

[Milbuck]

Phil said that?

:eek:
Yup.

http://a.espncdn.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0527/1205474.html


"Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times," Jackson said. "So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now.

And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."

Jackson was quickly asked for a clarification. That includes Michael Jordan?

"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker," Jackson said. "That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

Disregard the Jordan stuff, because that's all irrelevant, Jordan is the GOAT and unquestionably better than Kobe, blah blah blah...but the point is that Kobe was a brilliant all-around offensive creator which includes his passing ability. The stats show it, the footage is all available, people have praised it endlessly...to suggest that Kobe in terms of passing was just some random dude given the task of dribbling past half court and throwing it to Shaq for an easy two, is nothing short of comical.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What I believe...is that Kobe like everyone who ever played...cant have his ability to pass be measured only by his assist total. Because of this...I rank many players with less assists ahead of him...and some(At a glance...arguably 3) ahead of him behind him.

Nobody should need it explained that being healthy a long time doesnt mean your passing was better than people who played half as long. Nor does a great passer...in an offense that doesnt cater to it generating assists...worse at passing than they would be elsewhere. Not like Brad Miller learned to pass on the Kings...he was just asked to use his passing to generate shots.

You know all this. Nobody could actually believe a career assist total shows who the best passer is. We would all put Bill Walton on a list of best non point passers...yet hes behind George Gervin in assists....a noted and proud ballhog who didnt like to pass or excel at it when he tried.

His assist total...pretty much....irrelevant information when the issue is...is he a better passer than Walton.

So I guess you are just...****ing around the way people do. I dont see why...but...whatever. Do you.

Sorry dumb it down for me. Is that a yes or no? Do you believe Kobe's unaccounted for great passes are any different than any other player and if so do you have evidence that supports that belief?

[Milbuck]

"Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post I ever saw"

.... No. Entry passing isn't a damn skill.

It's what you're supposed to be doing with M.D.E Shaq, and Gasol, Bynum, etc...

I don't even know why you're blabbering all off-topic getting sensitive because it comes to Bean (straw man on your last sentence).

Side with MastaKilla, wise Milbuck.
Good god. This isn't just me picking on you because of our dumb little beef...what you're saying in this thread is genuinely retarded, dude. And you can't make it more obvious that you haven't watched a second of Kobe during the Shaq years.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont know why I even attempt to have a real conversation with some of you trolls...

I'll make note of you so in the future ill not bother assuming you have anything to say.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I dont know why I even attempt to have a real conversation with some of you trolls...

I'll make note of you so in the future ill not bother assuming you have anything to say.

Good Job
Good Effort

:cheers:

[PsychoBe]

kblaze what is your argument? you said you could name 34 players that might be better passers than kobe regardless of assist totals and you're upset that people don't agree with you? :facepalm

the problem with your argument is that it goes both ways. he's the only player in the 30k/6k/6k club for crying out loud.

[Kblaze8855]

Who are "people" exactly? A troll or two?

If the argument you want to use....total assists measures passing...you would find yourself suggesting dozens of things you know arent true. You look at an assist totals list...and have also watched basketball...you know people are higher and lower than your observations of their ability. Forget Kobe. We are talking common sense.

Reggie Miller is not a better passer than Penny even if he is 40 spots higher. Hes just higher on a list that has little to do with the issue at hand.

It applies to Reggie. It applies to Kobe.

Hell....it applies to Jordan. Ahead of Mark Price in assists....worse passer.

This does not need explaining to anyone serious/an adult being reasonable.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Who are "people" exactly? A troll or two?

If the argument you want to use....total assists measures passing...you would find yourself suggesting dozens of things you know arent true. You look at an assist totals list...and have also watched basketball...you know people are higher and lower than your observations of their ability. Forget Kobe. We are talking common sense.

Reggie Miller is not a better passer than Penny even if he is 40 spots higher. Hes just higher on a list that has little to do with the issue at hand.

It applies to Reggie. It applies to Kobe.

Hell....it applies to Jordan. Ahead of Mark Price in assists....worse passer.

This does not need explaining to anyone serious/an adult being reasonable.

Then use assist percentage :confusedshrug:

How does Kobe's assist percentage compare to those in your non PG list who are "clearly" greater passers than him?

[Dr Seuss]

Kblaze is shining proof that long winded posts do not always equate to a quality arguments

[Kblaze8855]

Then use assist percentage

How does Kobe's assist percentage compare to those in your non PG list who are "clearly" greater passers than him?

You dont want to talk ball....talk to someone else.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You dont want to talk ball....talk to someone else.

Anybody else out there want to support their position with numbers rather than long winded meaningless prose?

[greymatter]

Fine. Do you personally believe despite having no actual evidence that Kobe has great passes not accounted for assists at a different rate than other players in NBA history such that it makes sense to ignore his dominant assist total?

There are now advanced metrics that analyze stuff like usage rate and percentage of possessions that end with assists. ESPN started keeping that stat since 2003. Kobe's career high apg season of 6.0 (2004-5) ranked him #36 out of 92 in assist %. Even if you limit the list to the top 10 SGs in scoring, he was ranked #5. TMac, Rip Hamilton, AI, and Dwade were ahead. VC, Michael Redd, Jason Richardson, Jalen Rose were 6-10. It looks even worse if you toss out those SGs whose roles were mainly off the ball. So even going by just the math, he's an inferior passer to most of the other primary ball handling, high-volume scoring SGs of his era.

The Law of Averages works itself out over the course of a larger sampling size, so your question is pointless. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Kobe gets a higher % of good passes that failed to be credited as an assist than any other player who's had a long career.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There are now advanced metrics that analyze stuff like usage rate and percentage of possessions that end with assists. ESPN started keeping that stat since 2003. Kobe's career high apg season of 6.0 (2004-5) ranked him #36 out of 92 in assist %. Even if you limit the list to the top 10 SGs in scoring, he was ranked #5. TMac, Rip Hamilton, AI, and Dwade were ahead. VC, Michael Redd, Jason Richardson, Jalen Rose were 6-10. It looks even worse if you toss out those SGs whose roles were mainly off the ball. So even going by just the math, he's an inferior passer to most of the other primary ball handling, high-volume scoring SGs of his era.

The Law of Averages works itself out over the course of a larger sampling size, so your question is pointless. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Kobe gets a higher % of good passes that failed to be credited as an assist than any other player who's had a long career.

:biggums:

I've already volunteered that you guys should use assist percentage. I was never running with the idea that Kobe had more or less great passes at a uniquely unaccounted for rate. That was kblaze before he ran off because somebody had the audacity to probe him to back up his claims with some evidence.

[greymatter]

Then use assist percentage :confusedshrug:

How does Kobe's assist percentage compare to those in your non PG list who are "clearly" greater passers than him?

ESPN has a website. KG and Pau Gasol have higher assist % than Kobe for pretty much every season of their primes. Assist% is by no means and end-all stat. All it considers is if a player touched the ball and if he got the assist or someone else who touched it during that possession got one. No one is going to argue that Dwight Howard is a better passer than Kobe (yes, his assist% was much higher than Kobe's while he was with Orlando. That's mostly a result of hockey assists with 3pt shooting). Nonetheless, you're not actually interested in debating the merits of stats so much as Kobe fellating, so....

Enjoy yourself.

[Droid101]

ESPN has a website. KG and Pau Gasol have higher assist % than Kobe for pretty much every season of their primes.
Uh... then the stat is stupid.

Use Assist % on Basketball reference if you want a more accurate representation of their passing. Kobe was never beaten by those guys ever.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

ESPN has a website. KG and Pau Gasol have higher assist % than Kobe for pretty much every season of their primes. Assist% is by no means and end-all stat. All it considers is if a player touched the ball and if he got the assist or someone else who touched it during that possession got one. No one is going to argue that Dwight Howard is a better passer than Kobe (yes, his assist% was much higher than Kobe's while he was with Orlando. That's mostly a result of hockey assists with 3pt shooting). Nonetheless, you're not actually interested in debating the merits of stats so much as Kobe fellating, so....

Enjoy yourself.

Career Assist %

Kobe 24.3%
Garnett 19.4%
Gasol 16.3%
Howard 7.5%

:confusedshrug:

[greymatter]

:biggums:

I've already volunteered that you guys should use assist percentage. I was never running with the idea that Kobe had more or less great passes at a uniquely unaccounted for rate. That was kblaze before he ran off because somebody had the audacity to probe him to back up his claims with some evidence.

You were the one thick enough to point to an all-time assist total list as "evidence" that these aforementioned non-PGs aren't better passers simply because their names aren't as high as Kobe's is on the all-time list.

Your logic is simply that of....a simpleton.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You were the one thick enough to point to an all-time assist total list as "evidence" that these aforementioned non-PGs aren't better passers simply because their names aren't as high as Kobe's is on the all-time list.

Your logic is simply that of....a simpleton.

Yeah what kind of idiots equates assists with great passing. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Career Assist %

Kobe 24.3%
Garnett 19.4%
Gasol 16.3%
Howard 7.5%

:confusedshrug:
I think the assist % he's citing is different. The one basketball-reference uses is the % of teammate FGA a guy assists while on the floor. What he's describing ("percentage of possessions that end with assists") seems different. I think maybe assists per 100 possessions on basketball-reference is the closest thing to that. :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

Phil said that?

:eek:

Yes he did, bear in mind that having Pippen come into his own as a playmaker/creator afforded the luxury of having MJ play off the ball, and conserve his energy to carry the offense when necessary. MJ averaged something like 31/11/11 over a months stretch in 1989 when asked to assume a PG role, so clearly it wasn't outside his ability to be an offensive facilitator.

Whats interesting is that while 2001 wasn't 'peak' Kobe, in terms of overall play on both sides of the ball that year was arguably his best.

[greymatter]

Career Assist %

Kobe 24.3%
Garnett 19.4%
Gasol 16.3%
Howard 7.5%

:confusedshrug:

Clearly someone doesn't know how to navigate a website. It's not percentage of a team's total # of assists we're talking about.

Kobe's assist % in 2004-5 was 17.4%. Dwight Howard's in 2008-9 was 20.3%.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/sort/assistRatio/year/2005/qualified/false

#36 out of 92.

I'm done trying to teach inbred morons how to look stuff up.

[greymatter]

Yeah what kind of idiots equates assists with great passing. :oldlol:

The same kind of idiots that think all-time totals say more than per-game %es.

[rmt]

Only 4 players in NBA history have more Finals MVPs than Kobe Bryant. :confusedshrug:

I'll counter your statement with:

Only 1 player in NBA history has more Finals MVPs than Tim Duncan.

How misleading does your statement sound now?

[Milbuck]

I think the assist % he's citing is different. The one basketball-reference uses is the % of teammate FGA a guy assists while on the floor. What he's describing ("percentage of possessions that end with assists") seems different. I think maybe assists per 100 possessions on basketball-reference is the closest thing to that. :confusedshrug:
Sincere question here. Of what value then do those figures on basketball reference about this stuff (AST% and TO%) have? Are they more just a rate-based representation of raw totals and averages, or can we draw something from it?
I'll counter your statement with:

Only 1 player in NBA history has more Finals MVPs than Tim Duncan.

How does your statement sound now?
His argument is weak but what you're saying doesn't mean much, considering I have Duncan in my top 5, what you said just highlights his greatness.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'll counter your statement with:

Only 1 player in NBA history has more Finals MVPs than Tim Duncan.

How does your statement sound now?

Sounds accurate. Whats the problem?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The same kind of idiots that think all-time totals say more than per-game %es.

Why would we use a statistic that started in 2003 when we are talking about all time greats? :facepalm

The relevant statistics are career assists and assist percentage. Please try to keep up.

[fpliii]

Sincere question here. Of what value then do those figures on basketball reference about this stuff (AST% and TO%) have? Are they more just a rate-based representation of raw totals and averages, or can we draw something from it?
You're probably asking the wrong person TBH. I don't consider box score or box score-derived stats at all when evaluating players, so they don't have much use to me. They're all about opportunity really, and aside from points/PF, are at the scorekeepers' whim. Don't correlate winning anyway (when compared to play-by-play-based metrics), so it's silly/shortsighted how much weight they're given IMO.

I think the best way to evaluate passing is by watching tape, and looking at metrics that tell us how well the offense operates when a given player is on the floor when he's in a passing role. Something like PPP (points per play) when a guy passes (Synergy would probably have this, though they closed the site up to the public), or even ORtg when a guy is on the floor (though that has more to do with teammates/opponents) or ORPM (adjusts for teammates/opponents, but that's how good a guy is on offense as a whole.

[chazzy]

Entry passing isn't a damn skill.

Ha

[gts]

Clearly someone doesn't know how to navigate a website. It's not percentage of a team's total # of assists we're talking about.

Kobe's assist % in 2004-5 was 17.4%. Dwight Howard's in 2008-9 was 20.3%.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/sort/assistRatio/year/2005/qualified/false

#36 out of 92.

I'm done trying to teach inbred morons how to look stuff up.

If folks would watch the games instead of running to the stats, study the history of the game you'd know Kobe was playing in the triangle which is not an assist friendly system for any one player... matter of fact only once did Jackson have a point guard lead the team in assists...

Kobe led the Lakers in assists many many times which is where the conversation should stop because the system just isn't made for one guy to log big assist numbers..

[JohnFreeman]

Magic is a goldfish with his opinions

[dubeta]

Remember Magic said LeBron is the only one he's seen who can potentially be GOAT and in all likelihood magic already has LeBron ahead of Kobe in his rankings


Let's see how well the stans stick to Magic's opinion now

[red1]

It is a well known fact that magic isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. I mean are you really going to trust the guy responsible for bringing THIS into the world?


http://cdn.blackenterprise.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2013/04/earvin-johnson-iii-gay-magic-johnson-proud-of-his-son-black-enterprise.jpg

[TheBigVeto]

Bingo.

Magic has no credibility

This.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's definitely in the Top Five I've witnessed with my own eyes:

Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem

But top five all-time is a stretch.

Magic's opinion constantly flip flops, and he's being gracious not mentioning himself. If you add Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell into the conversation ... I don't see how on earth Kobe would be top five.

[Simple Jack]

wow - the response from yao mings foot to kblaze might be the single most retarded thing ive seen on ISH.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

wow - the response from yao mings foot to kblaze might be the single most retarded thing ive seen on ISH.

Which one specifically? There were several. :confusedshrug:

[Timmy D for MVP]

I think if you ask him to name the 5 he'd struggle. Then ask him again another time and it'd be completely different. This man listed about 100,000 MVP candidates in what would become one of the Starters' best Tweet of the Week entries this year.

[Cold soul]

top 15 all time.

magic, a lifetime laker, no wonder that he isnt objective

Yet you say Dirk top 15. :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Good god. This isn't just me picking on you because of our dumb little beef...what you're saying in this thread is genuinely retarded, dude. And you can't make it more obvious that you haven't watched a second of Kobe during the Shaq years.

5 assists a game with Shaq on his team, and you want to make him out the best creator ever?

Is this another one of your retarded "MJ was on a lottery team his 1st season" moments?

And APG CAN be equated to PLAYMAKING ability... not passing.

[Dragic4Life]

Ask Magic who his top 5 are on different days and he'd probably come up with 10 different names. His opinions are based on the flavor of the week.
This.

[VengefulAngel]

These guys are asked to talk so much basketball, I could find a thousand contradictions Magic has made in the last 5 years.

[HOoopCityJones]

The game is such a what have you done for me lately league that I'm not surprised by Magic's comments.

[Simple Jack]

Which one specifically? There were several. :confusedshrug:

Every single one of them. Most of your posts are like that but kblaze took particular advantage of a perfect opportunity to show how incredibly stupid your argument was.

[julizaver]

Magic's top 5 of All-time is consisting of at least 10 names ...

[Euroleague]

Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.

But where is the team impact???:roll:

Mitch Richmond, Shaq, Pau.....that's more than 1. And that's 2 on one team.

Never mind that Glen Rice has same resume as a bunch of guys that are in the hall of fame and as a bunch of guys that made it in recent years.

Who knows, Horry might even make it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Every single one of them. Most of your posts are like that but kblaze took particular advantage of a perfect opportunity to show how incredibly stupid your argument was.

Link? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Mitch Richmond, Shaq, Pau.....that's more than 1. And that's 2 on one team.

Never mind that Glen Rice has same resume as a bunch of guys that are in the hall of fame and as a bunch of guys that made it in recent years.

Who knows, Horry might even make it.

Thank you for pointing out Mitch Richmond's 4 minutes of playoff ball in 2002. I have adjusted the phrasing accordingly.

Kobe is the only player to win at least 4 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.

Glen Rice has a 8.6% HOF probability, Horry a 3.8% probability by latest estimates.

:confusedshrug:

[Euroleague]

Thank you for pointing out Mitch Richmond's 4 minutes of playoff ball in 2002. I have adjusted the phrasing accordingly.

Kobe is the only player to win at least 4 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.

Glen Rice has a 8.6% HOF probability, Horry a 3.8% probability by latest estimates.

:confusedshrug:

Doesn't matter. I'm not saying Rice will be in hall of fame, nor that he should be, I am saying his resume is = or > than many players in the hall of fame, especially some of the recent selections. So there is a good chance he will make it.

And those percentage estimates are a joke. I hope you realize that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Doesn't matter. I'm not saying Rice would be in hall of fame, I am saying his resume is = or better than many players in the hall of fame, especially many of the recent selections. So there is a very good chance he will make it.

And those percentage estimates are a joke. I hope you realize that.

Name the "many" recent selections with worse or equal resumes...

:confusedshrug:

[Euroleague]

Name the "many" recent selections with worse or equal resumes...

:confusedshrug:

You can take the 2 minutes time to Google the hall of fame inductees.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You can take the 2 minutes time to Google the hall of fame inductees.

I'm not seeing any that meet that criteria. You claim many. Start with 1. :confusedshrug:

[f0und]

15-20 at best

[Milbuck]

5 assists a game with Shaq on his team, and you want to make him out the best creator ever?

Is this another one of your retarded "MJ was on a lottery team his 1st season" moments?

And APG CAN be equated to PLAYMAKING ability... not passing.
...Uh when the hell did I say he was the best creator ever? Here you go again, completely changing the argument, putting words in people's mouths because you got called out for saying something incredibly stupid.

You snapped at someone praising Kobe's passing chemistry with big men...suggested that Kobe at his best on the Shaq-Kobe Laker teams, as a playmaker, did nothing more than throw entry passes to Shaq...which is fundamentally retarded. That was my point.

Again:


"Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times," Jackson said. "So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now.

And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."

Jackson was quickly asked for a clarification. That includes Michael Jordan?

"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker," Jackson said. "That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

Yeah, the dude was just an entry passer......:oldlol:

[gts]

...Uh when the hell did I say he was the best creator ever? Here you go again, completely changing the argument, putting words in people's mouths because you got called out for saying something incredibly stupid.

You snapped at someone praising Kobe's passing chemistry with big men...suggested that Kobe at his best on the Shaq-Kobe Laker teams, as a playmaker, did nothing more than throw entry passes to Shaq...which is fundamentally retarded. That was my point.

Again:



Yeah, the dude was just an entry passer......:oldlol:

understand you're arguing with a guy that will say anything no matter how ridiculous to bang on Kobe...

[ArbitraryWater]

...Uh when the hell did I say he was the best creator ever? Here you go again, completely changing the argument, putting words in people's mouths because you got called out for saying something incredibly stupid.

You snapped at someone praising Kobe's passing chemistry with big men...suggested that Kobe at his best on the Shaq-Kobe Laker teams, as a playmaker, did nothing more than throw entry passes to Shaq...which is fundamentally retarded. That was my point.

Again:



Yeah, the dude was just an entry passer......:oldlol:


Your reading comprehension is pathetic for an American

[DJ Leon Smith]

Magic: Andrew Bogut doesn't play defense.

LOL at people trying to back up Magic's words. Enjoy your AIDS!

Seriously, if you support what Magic says you're saying you want AIDS. Not my words it's science.

http://www.chicagonow.com/moms-who-drink-and-swear/files/2013/05/the-great-gatsby-leonardo-dicaprio-300x224.jpg

[gts]

Magic: Andrew Bogut doesn't play defense.

LOL at people trying to back up Magic's words. Enjoy your AIDS!

Seriously, if you support what Magic says you're saying you want AIDS. Not my words it's science.

http://www.chicagonow.com/moms-who-drink-and-swear/files/2013/05/the-great-gatsby-leonardo-dicaprio-300x224.jpg

I cringed...

[Milbuck]

Your reading comprehension is pathetic for an American
Not really. I'm pretty aware of what's been said here. Some dude said Kobe might be the best creator for big men in the post, which was clearly an exaggeration and not true. You jumped on it by suggesting that Kobe was nothing more than an entry passer to Shaq. Which is retarded.

If that wasn't the case, explain to me what exactly you're trying to say here.

...

Kobe fans try to make out "entry passing" to a guy like ****ing Shaquille O'Neal a damn SKILL.... :roll:

"Kobe is probably the best creator for big men in the post I ever saw"

.... No. Entry passing isn't a damn skill.

It's what you're supposed to be doing with M.D.E Shaq, and Gasol, Bynum, etc....

[Megabox!]

Magic: Andrew Bogut doesn't play defense.

LOL at people trying to back up Magic's words. Enjoy your AIDS!

Seriously, if you support what Magic says you're saying you want AIDS. Not my words it's science.

http://www.chicagonow.com/moms-who-drink-and-swear/files/2013/05/the-great-gatsby-leonardo-dicaprio-300x224.jpg
DJ Leon pls......don't ever post again

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe is the only player to win 5 titles with just 1 HOF teammate per title team.
But he LOST with 3 of them on the same team?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Well Magic Johnson is a terrible analyst so this pretty much confirms Kobe isn't top 10.

[Cold soul]

But he LOST with 3 of them on the same team?

Kobe only lost in the Finals twice and too two of top 5-10 defenseive units in NBA history 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics.