Four KG questions:

[fpliii]

1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[ArbitraryWater]

I have him in a tier that goes from 11-19... But I probably would prefer to place him around 15-16.

I do credit him a bit for that '09 run, or lets say take his injury into account.

Realistically, minus KG Injury and 2010 Refs, the Celtics were the best team in the NBA from 2008-2010.

If Cassell doesn't go down in 2004, they probably do make the finals... KG was unfortunate in that regard. But I won't apply the title hypothetical considering it's too unlikely to me.

A secured top 15 spot if he does win in '09 and makes the '04 finals, probably. We'll never know.

[inclinerator]

1 3 7 and 4

[Sakkreth]

1) 22-24
2) 20-24
3) 19-23
4) 14-17

[ProfessorMurder]

I don't care about accolades like most people. He's definitely top 20 now, and I'd pick him over a bunch of guys in the top 20 if I'm building a team.

An extra title or two doesn't really make a difference to me. Celtics were clearly the best in the league in 2009 before his freak knee injury. The Wolves should've made the finals in 2004 if it weren't for Cassell's injury. They were 6 minutes away from winning in 2010. One thing falls a different way each year and he's won 4... So I don't really care.

[kshutts1]

[QUOTE=fpliii]1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[JellyBean]

I have KG among the top 30 players of all-time, around 23-30 range.

[Mr.Kite]

[QUOTE=fpliii]1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[CJ Mustard]

1. Top 15-20. His lack of offensive dominance holds him back from being among the top 10. But outside of that, he's one of the GOAT all around players.

One thing I give him credit for, is his teams never lost a series they were supposed to win. But on the flip side, they usually lost when they were supposed to as well. He wasn't the type of player that could will his team to victory offensively.

2. I think it's clear the Celtics win in 2009 and 2010 if he didn't get hurt. However, I believe the Wolves probably lose in the Finals to Detroit. That team was too dominant defensively and KG wasn't the offensive force Shaq was, so it might've been a sweep.

[kshutts1]

1. Top 15-20. His lack off offensive dominance holds him back from being among the top 10. But outside of that, he's one of the GOAT all around players.

One thing I give him credit for, is his teams never lost a series they were supposed to win. But on the flip side, they usually lost when they were supposed to as well. He wasn't the type of player that could will his team to victory offensively.

2. I think it's clear the Celtics win in 2009 and 2010 if he didn't get hurt. However, I believe the Wolves probably lose in the Finals to Detroit. That team was too dominant defensively and KG wasn't the offensive force Shaq was, so it might've been a sweep.
Did you know that KG was 14th on the all time scoring list? I was shocked.

[CJ Mustard]

Did you know that KG was 14th on the all time scoring list? I was shocked.
Nah, I knew he was in the 25,000 range though. Obviously he's a great offensive player by most standards, but in comparison to the greatest ever he's a notch below.

[ProfessorMurder]

1. Top 15-20. His lack of offensive dominance holds him back from being among the top 10. But outside of that, he's one of the GOAT all around players.

One thing I give him credit for, is his teams never lost a series they were supposed to win. But on the flip side, they usually lost when they were supposed to as well. He wasn't the type of player that could will his team to victory offensively.

2. I think it's clear the Celtics win in 2009 and 2010 if he didn't get hurt. However, I believe the Wolves probably lose in the Finals to Detroit. That team was too dominant defensively and KG wasn't the offensive force Shaq was, so it might've been a sweep.

KG's playoff numbers in 2004 are as good as any Ewing, Robinson, Duncan playoff lines. He could take over a game. Those numbers he put up were stupid.

Also, they weren't supposed to beat the Lakers in 2008 or the Cavs in 2010 according to ESPN experts.



If KG isn't an offensive threat and he's 14th all time in scoring, who else on the top 30 scorers list isn't a very good offensive player?

[CJ Mustard]

KG's playoff numbers in 2004 are as good as any Ewing, Robinson, Duncan playoff lines. He could take over a game. Those numbers he put up were stupid.

Also, they weren't supposed to beat the Lakers in 2008 or the Cavs in 2010 according to ESPN experts.



If KG isn't an offensive threat and he's 14th all time in scoring, who else on the top 30 scorers list isn't a very good offensive player?
Not offensively. Duncan and Ewing have definitely had more dominant offensive runs than KG in 04, Robinson was notorious for under performing offensively in the Playoffs though but I'm sure he's had some on par with KG that year.

ESPN analysts suck and they just go with the best player most of the time. Not surprising they'd pick an MVP Kobe and Lebron over a better overall team.

I never said he wasn't an offensive threat, but his offensive isn't at the same level as most of the top 10, therefore I have him in the 15-20 range.

[Milbuck]

I think the whole offense > defense argument is vastly inflated, people are so quick to point out perceived offensive flaws but defensive impact is rarely given the full credit it deserves...and this is mostly evident in KG's case. And this is another reason why I think Duncan and Hakeem's peaks are to an extent underrated, but that's a topic for another day.

Why shouldn't we hold it against ATGs who, even at their best, were transcendent offensive players but were either below average, average, or just somewhat above average defenders impact-wise? I'm not disputing that elite offense beats elite defense, but the extent to which this argument is pushed is often excessive. Why should an elite offensive weapon with all-time great defense be denigrated in favor of an all-time great offensive weapon with borderline negligible defense?

We're nitpicking here about KG's offensive game, despite him being a 23/5 player over his 8 best seasons, and 24/6 at his peak, with a high-quality versatile scoring ability (though not on the level of a Duncan or a Hakeem or a Dirk), and GOAT-level passing for his position...and this is all at an incredibly low pace..in 2004 TWolves were running at a pace of 89 which not only occurred in an era of lower pace, but was good for 21st in the league..no doubt his stats aren't gonna look insane on the surface. And even ignoring the raw stats, look at his impact: in his peak year, the Timberwolves were running the 3rd best offense with KG on the floor, and by far the worst with him off, overall 5th. Still, people view his offense like it was a clear weakness, as if his peak version wouldn't be the clear-cut best offensive power forward in the game today.

But rarely do I see people talking about how KG near singlehandedly elevated a defense at a historic level at his peak. 5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench, overall 6th...112 ORTG with a 92 DRTG..

Impact wise that whole year he was at a net +20.7 in the regular season, +26.7 in the playoffs...I don't really put too much stock into RAPM but to throw it out there, dude was at 10.4 RAPM which is 0.1 ahead of Duncan and 0.1 behind Shaq. 29.7 PER, .272 WS/48, 9.1 VORP (metric comparing impact over an average player), all three higher than any Duncan season..not to knock Duncan, just for some perspective. And this was done on a 58 win, WCF team that lost to Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton...with 34 year old Cassel and 33 year old Sprewell as 2nd and 3rd options (not knocking them, but the talent discrepancy is pretty obvious).

Dude never won during his best years, so the narrative of "KG was great but he had some clear weaknesses and wasn't an ideal centerpiece" is pushed incessantly, despite proving with Boston that if you gave him the great talent that other all-time greats had, he could lead a dominant championship team...in the tail end of his prime. I really wonder how badly prime/peak Minnesota KG would've raped the league had he had teammates like Pippen/Rodman for Jordan, or Shaq/Gasol for Kobe, Kobe/Wade for Shaq, Wade/Bosh for Lebron, McHale/Parish/DJ for Bird, Kareem/Worthy/Scott for Magic, Ginobili/Parker for Duncan, etc.

[Milbuck]

1) 22-24

Who are 21-23 players better than KG?

[Gotterdammerung]

1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

In the second tier of the greats, after the Pantheon where I rank guys like Doctor J, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I classify KG in the tier with David Robinson, Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Bob Pettit, Bob Cousy.

LeBron and Kevin Durant are wild cards who could finish in either tier category.

[QUOTE=fpliii]2) Where would you rank him if both:

[SouBeachTalents]

In the second tier of the greats, after the Pantheon where I rank guys like Doctor J, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I classify KG in the tier with David Robinson, Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Bob Pettit, Bob Cousy.

How is LeBron not at minimum in the second tier? How is he possibly behind Pippen?

[Gotterdammerung]

How is LeBron not at minimum in the second tier? How is he possibly behind Pippen?
I see you didn't read the rest of my post. :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

I see you didn't read the rest of my post. :oldlol:

Lol, I took that as you saying he wasn't in either tier yet

[Lebronxrings]

over kobe

[dubeta]

over kobe

but thats already a given


Its like saying getting 4 wins in the Finals gets you a championship, its obvious

[ProfessorMurder]

Not offensively. Duncan and Ewing have definitely had more dominant offensive runs than KG in 04, Robinson was notorious for under performing offensively in the Playoffs though but I'm sure he's had some on par with KG that year.

Grabbed playoff stats for those guys. How are these stats not in the same realm? (Have to have played 10+ games in the playoffs)

Robinson MVP season:
95 - 15 games - 25.3 / 12.1 / 3.1 / 1.5 / 2.6 on 44.6% 19.3 fga / 9.9 fta

Ewing:
90 - 10 games - 29.4 / 10.5 / 3.1 / 1.3 / 2 42.1% 21.9 fga / 7.9 fta
92 - 12 games - 22.7 / 11.1 / 2.3 / .6 / 2.6 45.6% 19.9 fga / 6.1 fta
93 - 15 games - 25.5 / 10.9 / 2.4 / 1.1 / 2.1 51.2% 21.5 fga / 5.3 fta
94 - 25 games - 21.9 / 11.7 / 2.6 / 1.3 / 3 43.7% 19.2 fga / 6.5 fta

Duncan MVP season in 03:
01 - 13 games - 24.4 / 14.5 / 3.8 / 1.1 / 2.7 48.8% 18.9 fga / 9.2 fta
03 - 24 games - 24.7 / 15.4 / 5.3 / .6 / 3.3 52.9% 17.2 fga / 9.7 fta
05 - 23 games - 23.6 / 12.4 / 2.7 / .3 / 2.3 46.4% 18.5 fga / 8.9 fta

KG MVP season:
04 - 18 games - 24.3 / 14.6 / 5.1 / 1.3 / 2.3 on 45.2% 20.7 fga / 6.9 fta

Tell me those numbers aren't basically equal.

[CJ Mustard]

Grabbed playoff stats for those guys. How are these stats not in the same realm? (Have to have played 10+ games in the playoffs)

Robinson MVP season:
95 - 15 games - 25.3 / 12.1 / 3.1 / 1.5 / 2.6 on 44.6% 19.3 fga / 9.9 fta

Ewing:
90 - 10 games - 29.4 / 10.5 / 3.1 / 1.3 / 2 52.1% 21.9 fga / 7.9 fta
92 - 12 games - 22.7 / 11.1 / 2.3 / .6 / 2.6 45.6% 19.9 fga / 6.1 fta
93 - 15 games - 25.5 / 10.9 / 2.4 / 1.1 / 2.1 51.2% 21.5 fga / 5.3 fta
94 - 25 games - 21.9 / 11.7 / 2.6 / 1.3 / 3 43.7% 19.2 fga / 6.5 fta

Duncan MVP season in 03:
01 - 13 games - 24.4 / 14.5 / 3.8 / 1.1 / 2.7 48.8% 18.9 fga / 9.2 fta
03 - 24 games - 24.7 / 15.4 / 5.3 / .6 / 3.3 52.9% 17.2 fga / 9.7 fta
05 - 23 games - 23.6 / 12.4 / 2.7 / .3 / 2.3 46.4% 18.5 fga / 8.9 fta

KG MVP season:
04 - 18 games - 24.3 / 14.6 / 5.1 / 1.3 / 2.3 on 45.2% 20.7 fga / 6.9 fta

Tell me those numbers aren't basically equal.
Fixed. And yeah, Ewing's 90 and 93 run and Duncan's 03 and 06 runs are better than KG's '04 run offensively. They scored more points on higher efficiency.

I'm not hating on KG either, he's one of my favorite players. I'm just pointing out why he misses my top 10. I still take him over Ewing overall.

[Pointguard]

In the second tier of the greats, after the Pantheon where I rank guys like Doctor J, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I classify KG in the tier with David Robinson, Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Bob Pettit, Bob Cousy.

LeBron and Kevin Durant are wild cards who could finish in either tier category.

the same tier. They're not beating the 2004 Pistons. Too powerful.

if Boston wins back to back, and KG wins MVP in both, it might be enough to push him over to the next tier.

If KG was equally dominant in the 2004 finals, against all reason because they had enough length and bodies to slow him down, then he belongs on the first tier, like all the others who dominated in the same fashion on their way to multiple titles. :cheers:
Good stuff as usual...

'04 Pistons were just the right team to beat LA. They definitely would have lost their previous two rounds to Indiana and the Nets if those teams were healthy. They were beatable. Just a real matchup problem for LA.

[Gotterdammerung]

Good stuff as usual...

'04 Pistons were just the right team to beat LA. They definitely would have lost their previous two rounds to Indiana and the Nets if those teams were healthy. They were beatable. Just a real matchup problem for LA.
:lebronamazed:
Do you think the 2004 Pistons would've beaten the Timberwolves in the Finals, had Cassell, etc., stayed healthy?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1) Top 15
2) A bit higher due to staying healthy in 09.
3/4) Depends on how he plays in the finals. If he plays up to what I think he's capable of then top 6-10 range. Around where I have Tim Duncan.

[ProfessorMurder]

Fixed. And yeah, Ewing's 90 and 93 run and Duncan's 03 and 06 runs are better than KG's '04 run offensively. They scored more points on higher efficiency.

I'm not hating on KG either, he's one of my favorite players. I'm just pointing out why he misses my top 10. I still take him over Ewing overall.

I get it, but those numbers aren't drastically different enough to say one could take over games offensively and one couldn't. All those guys had multiple plays run for them in a row and could control a game.

Ewing's 90 season is the only one that's far better scoring than the others but that was match ups. He played the old Celtics in the first round and they couldn't keep up. KG's added 2 assists to his 24 points gives his team almost as much offensively... Plus teammates and match ups, etc.

I'm not saying he's top 10 all time or anything by traditional standards, but I just feel like his offense was slept on big time. Milbuck hit great points in his post about it. Yeah he won't drop 50 on you, but he's a far better than average offensive player, even elite when you consider his passing.

[Pointguard]

:lebronamazed:
Do you think the 2004 Pistons would've beaten the Timberwolves in the Finals, had Cassell, etc., stayed healthy?
Its matchup problems. Can't really say how it would have went if Minny played the Pistons. I definitely know Indiana and the Nets beat Detroit if healthy. It was indeed a very novel thing they did with LA which caught the Lakers off guard and PJ had trouble adapting.

[julizaver]

[QUOTE=fpliii]1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[LAZERUSS]

KG is just another example of the fact that basketball is a TEAM game, and that one individual only has so much control over how his TEAM performs.

He single-handedly carried pure trash rosters to 50 win seasons for much of his career, but with little playoff success.

But when he joined a quality supporting cast, he anchored a 66-16 team that won a title.

The real shame is that his loyalty probably cost him multiple championships in his career. And I get a kick out of those that rip Lebron for leaving Cleveland, and then going to four Finals with a good roster in Miami. LBJ toiled seven long years with rosters that were pure garbage, and with zero chances of winning a ring. And even his Heat teams were way over-rated, as well. Wade and Bosh's post-season contributions were often mediocre in the last three years of the "dynasty." How important was Wade to the success of those Heat teams? Miami went 47-18 in the games he missed in those four years.

Same with his Cleveland teams early in his career. To have back-to-back seasons of 66-16 and 61-21 with a supporting cast that would basically go 19-63 without him the very next year is all anyone needs to know about his "help."

And how about the great Jordan? In his first three seasons, his teams didn't even have a winning record, and went a combined 1-9 in the post-season. And while there is no doubt that Pippen was a huge factor in MJ's six rings, players like Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman are often over-looked in his title runs.

MJ didn't sniff a title until he had Pippen and Grant, and later on, Pippen and Rodman. And then he always had deep supporting casts in those years, as well. All anyone needs to know about MJ's surrounding rosters was his 92-93 season, and the very next year after that. His 92-93 team went 57-25 and won a title. With basically only a part-time Pete Myers and a part-time Toni Kukoc replacing MJ, the Bulls still went 55-27 in 93-94. They then lost a close (and controversial) game seven to the 56-26 Knicks. The same NY team that would go on to lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (BTW, the Knicks outscored Houston in that series.)

Furthermore, MJ was NOT rusty when he came back later in the 94-95 season, either. He played the last 17 games of that regular season, and if anything, he was the freshest player in the entire post-season. And they STILL lost to the Magic in the playoffs. And one of the key reasons that they lost in that series was that GRANT was playing on the OTHER team.


None of that is a knock on Lebron or MJ. But the REALITY was, those two guys didn't win anything without a ton of help. I would argue that MJ's peak seasons, including the post-season, actually came before his first ring. Same with Lebron.


One can only wonder how many rings a prime KG would have won, had he been paired up with Allen and Pierce several years before he actually joined them.

And I suspect that had that been the case, that he likely would be have a strong case for an all-time Top-10 career.

[T_L_P]

1.) Anywhere from 12-14

2.)

(i) If they win the Finals, probably #10. If they get to the Finals and lose, I don't think his place changes (personally, I think if he faced Detroit his shooting numbers would have been poor, which you can say they were for the Playoffs as a whole anyway)

(ii) Similar to (i). That said, Boston being able to take a 60 win team to 7 games without their anchor just goes to show how much help KG had in Boston. Say what you want about Duncan's help, but everytime he's either missed Playoff games (00 Playoffs, a game against the Sonics in 02), or played like shit (11), his team has crashed out of the Playoffs. The Spurs don't beat the Suns in the 08 1st round without Duncan (08 Duncan and 09 KG were in similar situations).

Only just saw 3 and 4. Can't really be bothered to break down the post for winning or not.

Garnett's 04 regular season is the best or second best of the past 20 years (behind LeBron's 09 one). The problem is, unlike LeBron, and unlike Duncan (who he'll always be compared to), he didn't raise his game in the Playoffs (on the offensive end, which, as much as I hate admitting, is more important than what you do defensively). That's why he's just below that Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem big man class for me.

[Smoke117]

Kevin Garnett is a top 20 player that has ever lived. People put Scottie top 30 (my favorite player ever) and KG was pretty much a taller version of him with better stats...so how can he not be top 20? You probably aren't going to find a player so good at so many things at his size ever again. He probably had the best basketball body of all time...and you know what? He sure as hell didn't waste that gift. The nonsense that has been going around since 2011 that Dirk is/or could be a better player than Garnett is so laughable...

[julizaver]

KG is just another example of the fact that basketball is a TEAM game, and that one individual only has so much control over how his TEAM performs.

He single-handedly carried pure trash rosters to 50 win seasons for much of his career, but with little playoff success.

But when he joined a quality supporting cast, he anchored a 66-16 team that won a title.

One can only wonder how many rings a prime KG would have won, had he been paired up with Allen and Pierce several years before he actually joined them.

And I suspect that had that been the case, that he likely would be have a strong case for an all-time Top-10 career.

There a lot of ifs, but for sure KG was better than Allen and Pierce (had greater team impact, more versatile and so on) and I am ranking him ahead of both in any scenario in my GOAT list. If the trio had teamed up 5 years earlier we could spoke about new Celtics dynasty in the '00s.

I rank him around other players like Ewing, Robinson, Pippen, Drexler.
And if I am to start a team from zero right now I would choose him ahead of Kobe, although the last is slightly higher in my GOAT list.

[julizaver]

Kevin Garnett is a top 20 player that has ever lived. People put Scottie top 30 (my favorite player ever) and KG was pretty much a taller version of him with better stats...so how can he not be top 20? You probably aren't going to find a player so good at so many things at his size ever again. He probably had the best basketball body of all time...and you know what? He sure as hell didn't waste that gift. The nonsense that has been going around since 2011 that Dirk is/or could be a better player than Garnett is so laughable...

Dirk is ... Dirk. For me they are closed in GOAT list although KG seems the more talanted, athletic, versatile and flashy while Dirk is very strong post season performer, proved himself on the international level multiple times.
What I mean is that Dirk has slightly better career and legacy, not that he was the better player.

[veilside23]

I have KG in my top ten... to say KG's offense is not as dynamic as other scorers is a joke... Karl Malone scored tons of points because the system was built for him and having an elite pg had a great effect on Malone but despite all the support he got he didnt win anything but people have him in top 10. I would only put TD over KG no other PF's i would consider over KG but Duncan.

Ewing was great but KG's Peak is better. Ewing's prime is like barkley's it was good but it didnt last that long. From 2003 - 2009. specially in 2004 KG had insane numbers not only in the regular season but also the playoffs. KG was also 3rd in voting for MVP.

His playoff #'s vs the kings where under appreciated by many . If only casell was healthy KG' would have made life miserable for sheed and wallace . Not either one of those guys could guard KG.

[Pointguard]

We're nitpicking here about KG's offensive game, despite him being a 23/5 player over his 8 best seasons, and 24/6 at his peak, with a high-quality versatile scoring ability (though not on the level of a Duncan or a Hakeem or a Dirk), and GOAT-level passing for his position...and this is all at an incredibly low pace..in 2004 TWolves were running at a pace of 89 which not only occurred in an era of lower pace, but was good for 21st in the league..no doubt his stats aren't gonna look insane on the surface. And even ignoring the raw stats, look at his impact: in his peak year, the Timberwolves were running the 3rd best offense with KG on the floor, and by far the worst with him off, overall 5th.
WOW, This stuff here is crazy... Repped indeed. You did all of that without mentioning him winning 4 rebound titles with Ben Wallace being a specialist stealing a 5th one. Hard to do when you are the most the versatile player in the game. None of the contributors on the team were near their peak either (Sprewell and Cassell were 33 and 34). And playing a game that slow is hard with guys that lost a step. Wally was at 10ppg.

He averaged over 5 assist per game for 7 years. Mostly with teams that had only one player that was capable of creating their own shot... all of this, while playing at a slow pace!


Still, people view his offense like it was a clear weakness, as if his peak version wouldn't be the clear-cut best offensive power forward in the game today.
Not to mention the five assist would be six + today as everybody has a quality shooter.


But rarely do I see people talking about how KG near singlehandedly elevated a defense at a historic level at his peak. 5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench, overall 6th...112 ORTG with a 92 DRTG..

Impact wise that whole year he was at a net +20.7 in the regular season, +26.7 in the playoffs...I don't really put too much stock into RAPM but to throw it out there, dude was at 10.4 RAPM which is 0.1 ahead of Duncan and 0.1 behind Shaq. 29.7 PER, .272 WS/48, 9.1 VORP (metric comparing impact over an average player), all three higher than any Duncan season..not to knock Duncan, just for some perspective. And this was done on a 58 win, WCF team that lost to Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton...with 34 year old Cassel and 33 year old Sprewell as 2nd and 3rd options (not knocking them, but the talent discrepancy is pretty obvious).
:eek:


Dude never won during his best years, so the narrative of "KG was great but he had some clear weaknesses and wasn't an ideal centerpiece" is pushed incessantly, despite proving with Boston that if you gave him the great talent that other all-time greats had, he could lead a dominant championship team...in the tail end of his prime. I really wonder how badly prime/peak Minnesota KG would've raped the league had he had teammates like Pippen/Rodman for Jordan, or Shaq/Gasol for Kobe, Kobe/Wade for Shaq, Wade/Bosh for Lebron, McHale/Parish/DJ for Bird, Kareem/Worthy/Scott for Magic, Ginobili/Parker for Duncan, etc.

KG won the first year he played for a quality organization and would have done it at least one more time if not two had the injuries not come up. Two other things about KG that are of note. He played both sides of the floor as hard as anybody in the video era. His intensity was crazy. And it was for 100 games in his peak. You could take any of his 100 games that year and compare it to anybody's most intense game. He was a fire ball. When players see/feel that it makes them get up for the game.

The other thing is that KG was tangled into the team concept as much as any player. His communication on defense unified the team in a way few players in the past have ever done. No team was getting off in the paint on those Celtic teams. On offense he was the anchor and passed as consistently good as any big man. On every trip up and down the floor he was not only very active affecting the game, but made intelligent decisions that changed plays most of the time on both sides of the floor.

[Nowitness]

I have KG in my top ten... to say KG's offense is not as dynamic as other scorers is a joke... Karl Malone scored tons of points because the system was built for him and having an elite pg had a great effect on Malone but despite all the support he got he didnt win anything but people have him in top 10. I would only put TD over KG no other PF's i would consider over KG but Duncan.

Ewing was great but KG's Peak is better. Ewing's prime is like barkley's it was good but it didnt last that long. From 2003 - 2009. specially in 2004 KG had insane numbers not only in the regular season but also the playoffs. KG was also 3rd in voting for MVP.

His playoff #'s vs the kings where under appreciated by many . If only casell was healthy KG' would have made life miserable for sheed and wallace . Not either one of those guys could guard KG.

I understand it's a team game and I love KG. But to include 3 straight years he missed the playoffs as part of his prime is laughable. He had sporadic years of greatness, 01-04 and 08 really.

You cannot miss the playoffs 3 times in your prime and be called a top 10 player. Sorry. Dirk has a better case if going by Regular Season/Playoff Performances.

[Pointguard]

On offense vs defense front... .

Most of the time offense is valued more than defense. However, in the playoffs great defense wins much more than the great offense. Even in the great offense era, Boston was winning on defense. Kobe and Shaq were both at their peaks and the greatest inside out duo ever, when great defense made the both of them look ineffective (Shaq was still beasting, but it wasn't effective beasting). There would have been no offensive player to counteract Kobe/Shaq. Ben Wallace's impact couldn't even be countered by the game's best coach.

When Wade took over the finals against Dallas, only great defense would have been the remedy. To suggest more offense as the remedy is just insane. The game has to be played on both sides of the ball and in the playoffs the game gets slowed down.

If you play defense at the level of KG it has to be considered equal to good offense. In '08 the Laker team had just killed SA in the paint. Kobe was having a slam fest. When they played the Celtics, Kobe's game had to totally readjust because the rim was like two feet higher - he just wasn't getting to it. KG had Kobe pushed out from within the paint. He communicated to players how to keep Kobe out.

If you are controlling the game all game long, it's as important as any other aspect of the game. Another players high scoring game is inferior to a team working together to making the opposing team play an inferior brand of ball.

[Pointguard]

I understand it's a team game and I love KG. But to include 3 straight years he missed the playoffs as part of his prime is laughable. He had sporadic years of greatness, 01-04 and 08 really.

You cannot miss the playoffs 3 times in your prime and be called a top 10 player. Sorry. Dirk has a better case if going by Regular Season/Playoff Performances.
KG played for one of the worst organizations in sports. In basketball, great organizations have an advantage well beyond any in any other sport. Just put the two together. If you think its a one man show - you don't know the game.

[Pointguard]

Dirk is ... Dirk. For me they are closed in GOAT list although KG seems the more talanted, athletic, versatile and flashy while Dirk is very strong post season performer, proved himself on the international level multiple times.
What I mean is that Dirk has slightly better career and legacy, not that he was the better player.

Legacy wise... in the future every team will want a defensive quarterback. Its like having walkie talkies in the battle field. Its a great advantage. Everybody will also want a very versatile big man that can do everything. Most good international players have the international legacy thing going on.

KG's intelligent play rarely gets talked about but you can not show me a big man that commits to the right defensive play like KG did/does. He makes the right decisions as good as it gets on both sides of the ball. KG is not flashy, I don't know where you got that from unless you are confusing intensity for being flashy? KG is one of the games hardest workers and you missed that as well.

[julizaver]

I have KG in my top ten... to say KG's offense is not as dynamic as other scorers is a joke... Karl Malone scored tons of points because the system was built for him and having an elite pg had a great effect on Malone but despite all the support he got he didnt win anything but people have him in top 10. I would only put TD over KG no other PF's i would consider over KG but Duncan.

Ewing was great but KG's Peak is better. Ewing's prime is like barkley's it was good but it didnt last that long. From 2003 - 2009. specially in 2004 KG had insane numbers not only in the regular season but also the playoffs. KG was also 3rd in voting for MVP.

His playoff #'s vs the kings where under appreciated by many . If only casell was healthy KG' would have made life miserable for sheed and wallace . Not either one of those guys could guard KG.

I personally had Malone and Barkley ahead of KG.
Malone was probably the most consistent player in the NBA history - and his prime years bested KGs. Malone was everything the PF should be.
Barkley in his prime was beast and better than KG (not by big difference but better). In their respective primes Barkley and Malone was more dominating then KG was ever and that's why I put them ahead of KG.
For Tim Dunkan there is consensus here and there is no need to explain why he is ahead of KG in my GOAT list.

[FatComputerNerd]

Duncan was a Center.

Personally I would pick KG over either Malone or Barkley if picking one of the three to build a team around.

His versatility is too hard to ignore, regardless of who had the better peak, personal accolades, or stats.

[julizaver]

Legacy wise... in the future every team will want a defensive quarterback. Its like having walkie talkies in the battle field. Its a great advantage. Everybody will also want a very versatile big man that can do everything. Most good international players have the international legacy thing going on.

KG's intelligent play rarely gets talked about but you can not show me a big man that commits to the right defensive play like KG did/does. He makes the right decisions as good as it gets on both sides of the ball. KG is not flashy, I don't know where you got that from unless you are confusing intensity for being flashy? KG is one of the games hardest workers and you missed that as well.

More flashy than Dirk ... is what I really mean/wrote. Back in his younger days KG was often in Top10 plays of the week. When someone do something spectacular isn't it called "flashy" - windmills, alley-opps behind the back passes ?
I am not questioning KG's intensity or hardworking.

[julizaver]

Duncan was a Center.


Yes, but spent most of his career at PF.



Personally I would pick KG over either Malone or Barkley if picking one of the three to build a team around.

I could pick KG over Barkley for Barkley's off-field activities (drinking, beating with peoples) and disciplinary reasons.


His versatility is too hard to ignore, regardless of who had the better peak, personal accolades, or stats.

From what I have seen prime Barkley is at least as versatile as prime KG. He was more efficient scorer and as intense under the boards as a player could be. Fierce competitor and true warrior on the field. He was beating people out there.

[Pointguard]

More flashy than Dirk ... is what I really mean/wrote. Back in his younger days KG was often in Top10 plays of the week. When someone do something spectacular isn't it called "flashy" - windmills, alley-opps behind the back passes ?
I am not questioning KG's intensity or hardworking.
Of course you are not questioning it. My point is that its at an all time high in the sport. I can't name three people in front of KG in intensity or being a harder worker. KG was always more of a worker, one of the hardest workers in the game ever, than he was a guy with flash.

For me they are closed in GOAT list although KG seems the more talanted, athletic, versatile and flashy
I have a problem when people mention a guy who developed more aspects of his game than probably any player in the game at the professional level, gets reduced down to his natural gifts and flashiness, and he wasn't flashy. The way you described him one would never know how his team defense was among the best ever. His offensive game, very team oriented because he dedicated himself to learning the game. He applied more skills than any other big man because of his tireless work ethic. He was good at more aspects of the game, and great at some because of his seriousness, intelligence and willingness to develop more aspects of his game.

[FatComputerNerd]

From what I have seen prime Barkley is at least as versatile as prime KG. He was more efficient scorer and as intense under the boards as a player could be. Fierce competitor and true warrior on the field. He was beating people out there.

Barkley was a more dynamic player offensively, but I wouldn't say he was as versatile overall. Garnett's height and wingspan advantage alone tip the scales.

Barkley was definitely an all-time great though, no question there.

[Pointguard]

From what I have seen prime Barkley is at least as versatile as prime KG. He was more efficient scorer and as intense under the boards as a player could be. Fierce competitor and true warrior on the field. He was beating people out there.
Versatile includes defense. KG could play guard every position - Barkley barely one. So no he wasn't as versatile, but was more versatile offensively.

Barkley was joked on by a couple of other greats/peers for not having enough intensity. He would go after a rebound hard but he wasn't winning 4 rebound titles. Barkley had no intensity on defense either.

Did you see prime KG play??? There was a good nine year span where KG was intense every play in regular season and post season.

[julizaver]

Versatile includes defense. KG could play guard every position - Barkley barely one. So no he wasn't as versatile, but was more versatile offensively.

Barkley was joked on by a couple of other greats/peers for not having enough intensity. He would go after a rebound hard but he wasn't winning 4 rebound titles. Barkley had no intensity on defense either.

Did you see prime KG play??? There was a good nine year span where KG was intense every play in regular season and post season.

I've seen prime Barkley, young KG and prime KG. I could agree that KG had the edge defensively but overall Barkley was more dominant in his prime from what I've seen ...
To make things cleared and with all you said:

Where did you rank KG in All-time list ? I ranked him just outside top20 and behind Barkley, Malone and Dunkan.

[raiderfan19]

We need to be clear about some things, yes as a team defense is at least as valuable as offense if not more so, but on an individual level, elite offense is worth a ton more than elite defense. Tony Allen is every bit as good at d as Kobe was at offense in his prime. Does Allen get a mega max contract? Hell no because individual d just isn't worth what a game changing scorer is. Especially if you aren't an elite rim protector(which kg wasn't quite an elite rim protector) the reason for this is that's it's much easier to cobble together a passable or even good defense out of scheme and roll players than it is to make a good offense without talent. Take the 2011 mavs for example. They were a top ten d, with the ghost of Jason Kidd, Jason terry, an older Shawn Marion an older dirk and Tyson chandler(I know Stevenson started but he played like 15 mins a game) you aren't getting a top offense out of whomever you'd consider the equivalent of those guys offensively even with Rick as a coach. That's why kg will never be as valuable as several of the guys who were much worse defensively than he was. Magic for instance is one of the worst defensive elite players ever. But he's also arguably the greatest offensive player in history. Or dirk, not as good offensively as magic but one of the ten best offensive weapons in history, and still worth more than kg.

[FatComputerNerd]

We need to be clear about some things, yes as a team defense is at least as valuable as offense if not more so, but on an individual level, elite offense is worth a ton more than elite defense. Tony Allen is every bit as good at d as Kobe was at offense in his prime. Does Allen get a mega max contract? Hell no because individual d just isn't worth what a game changing scorer is. Especially if you aren't an elite rim protector(which kg wasn't quite an elite rim protector) the reason for this is that's it's much easier to cobble together a passable or even good defense out of scheme and roll players than it is to make a good offense without talent. Take the 2011 mavs for example. They were a top ten d, with the ghost of Jason Kidd, Jason terry, an older Shawn Marion an older dirk and Tyson chandler(I know Stevenson started but he played like 15 mins a game) you aren't getting a top offense out of whomever you'd consider the equivalent of those guys offensively even with Rick as a coach. That's why kg will never be as valuable as several of the guys who were much worse defensively than he was. Magic for instance is one of the worst defensive elite players ever. But he's also arguably the greatest offensive player in history. Or dirk, not as good offensively as magic but one of the ten best offensive weapons in history, and still worth more than kg.

I see your points, and they are valid in theory, but a prime KG was no slouch on offense either.

Dirk might be the better shooter but nobody in their right mind would pick him over KG to start a franchise with.

[T_L_P]

That post fadeaway killed KG, just like it killed Malone and Ewing.

KG is the literally definition of an inside-outside tweener. Wasn't a low-post player or rim protector, but he wasn't an wing player either.

[raiderfan19]

I see your points, and they are valid in theory, but a prime KG was no slouch on offense either.

Dirk might be the better shooter but nobody in their right mind would pick him over KG to start a franchise with.
Yes they would. Dirk was a more valuable than kg for the vast majority of his career.

[FatComputerNerd]

Yes they would. Dirk was a more valuable than kg for the vast majority of his career.

Debatable.

More valuable perhaps as a #1 alpha scorer, but definitely not more versatile.

[FatComputerNerd]

KG was a better passer, rebounder, defender, and almost as good of a scorer. Add the overall smarts, court-vision, and guard-like handles he had as a youngster and there is really no comparison IMO.

This is not meant to take anything away from Dirk or his well-deserved championship ring. Dirk is awesome, and a future HOF'er obviously.

[raiderfan19]

KG was a better passer, rebounder, defender, and almost as good of a scorer. Add the overall smarts, court-vision, and guard-like handles he had as a youngster and there is really no comparison IMO.

This is not meant to take anything away from Dirk or his well-deserved championship ring. Dirk is awesome, and a future HOF'er obviously.

KG was a better passer, rebounder, defender, and almost as good of a scorer. Add the overall smarts, court-vision, and guard-like crazy handles he had as a youngster and there is really no comparison IMO.

This is not meant to take anything away from Dirk or his well-deserved championship ring. Dirk is awesome, and a future HOF'er obviously.
You can't take point totals and say x is almost as good as y because he scores as much. And you definitely can't do that and compare how they impact a game offensively. For instance monta scores 20 a game and Steph curry scores 23 a game which is about the same statistical difference that dirk and kg had as scorers during their peaks. Steph is light years more effective as an offensive player though. Same thing applies to dirk and for largely the same reason. Gravity. Go through dirks career and look at the mavs offensive rankings in terms of points per possession. And while the internet theory is that dirk played with just a ton more talent. That really isn't the case outside of Nash.

[Pointguard]

I've seen prime Barkley, young KG and prime KG. I could agree that KG had the edge defensively but overall Barkley was more dominant in his prime from what I've seen ...
To make things cleared and with all you said:

Where did you rank KG in All-time list ? I ranked him just outside top20 and behind Barkley, Malone and Dunkan.
15 -18 as a player. First of the PF's after Duncan who I have top six. Some days I have Malone over KG. KG is the only PF that could play Duncan equal in every category. And he did in their 5 year primes. Duncan just has a crazy resume.

Malone was crazy for me. He was a contemporary of Charles and you could take his 8 best years and it would be right on par with Barkley's best year, which was a deviation from his other best years save one year. Barkley at his best was better than even Duncan to me. IMO, His approach to the game was very different from the other great PF's. He wasn't as serious.

[Pointguard]

You can't take point totals and say x is almost as good as y because he scores as much. And you definitely can't do that and compare how they impact a game offensively. For instance monta scores 20 a game and Steph curry scores 23 a game which is about the same statistical difference that dirk and kg had as scorers during their peaks. Steph is light years more effective as an offensive player though. Same thing applies to dirk and for largely the same reason. Gravity. Go through dirks career and look at the mavs offensive rankings in terms of points per possession. And while the internet theory is that dirk played with just a ton more talent. That really isn't the case outside of Nash.
I hate that the word gravity is being misused. I used to use the term to refer to Shaq's presence down low or Derrick Rose's ability to get four defenders out of position consistently. Now it means something totally different. Somehow its more about jump shooters which should never have the defensive attention/commitment a deep post player or hard driver to the hoop should have. Unless every team in the league is playing defense wrong.

[Pointguard]

That post fadeaway killed KG, just like it killed Malone and Ewing.

KG is the literally definition of an inside-outside tweener. Wasn't a low-post player or rim protector, but he wasn't an wing player either.

Of all the players mentioned in this thread KG was the best rebounder. He was far from a tweener if for that alone. Traditionally the PF position was a hustle/rebounding/defensive position. All of which KG is as good as any PF ever. He defended with his feet and through communication. A bit futuristic but better than defense at the rim - which in theory is always bit late and can get you in foul trouble. KG's offensive game was a middle game and had he a structured offensive team he would have been better utilized.

[tpols]

We need to be clear about some things, yes as a team defense is at least as valuable as offense if not more so, but on an individual level, elite offense is worth a ton more than elite defense. Tony Allen is every bit as good at d as Kobe was at offense in his prime. Does Allen get a mega max contract? Hell no because individual d just isn't worth what a game changing scorer is. Especially if you aren't an elite rim protector(which kg wasn't quite an elite rim protector) the reason for this is that's it's much easier to cobble together a passable or even good defense out of scheme and roll players than it is to make a good offense without talent. Take the 2011 mavs for example. They were a top ten d, with the ghost of Jason Kidd, Jason terry, an older Shawn Marion an older dirk and Tyson chandler(I know Stevenson started but he played like 15 mins a game) you aren't getting a top offense out of whomever you'd consider the equivalent of those guys offensively even with Rick as a coach. That's why kg will never be as valuable as several of the guys who were much worse defensively than he was. Magic for instance is one of the worst defensive elite players ever. But he's also arguably the greatest offensive player in history. Or dirk, not as good offensively as magic but one of the ten best offensive weapons in history, and still worth more than kg.

Backcourt players generally can't affect a team defense nearly as much front court players so the Tony Allen Kobe comparison doesn't really apply here.

All advanced data shows that KG, Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan level big man defenders can and do impact their defense by as many points per possession as the top offensive players improve their offense if not more.

And the trend also shows that front court players generally can't affect an offense nearly as much as a Kobe, Wade, Paul, etc perimeter player. So what you're saying is true of Backcourts and false for front courts.

[CelticBaller]

That post fadeaway killed KG, just like it killed Malone and Ewing.

KG is the literally definition of an inside-outside tweener. Wasn't a low-post player or rim protector, but he wasn't an wing player either.
that post fadeway was the reason he got to play at a high level for at least 3 more years. The dude was gassed out after all those minesota years

And tf? he was a rim protector, post player and a mid range shooter. KG was the definition of a franchise player, a can do anything big men back in his prime :facepalm

[Nowitness]

that post fadeway was the reason he got to play at a high level for at least 3 more years. The dude was gassed out after all those minesota years

And tf? he was a rim protector, post player and a mid range shooter. KG was the definition of a franchise player, a can do anything big men back in his prime :facepalm

Sure, if Cousins is a franchise player.

The one thing I never understand about KG stans are when they sprout this bs about him being futuristic and different with his ability to shoot and guard the P/R (and in turn inability to post up and really defend the rim) but glance over the fact that he missed the playoffs 3 years straight in his 'prime'.

He didn't choose to shoot jumpers, he had to. There is a reason Duncan won 5 rings (4 as the best player) and KG won one. Though I have him second all time amongst PF's didn't Barkley drag weak teams to the playoffs?

[Pointguard]

I am amazed that people are trying to downplay defense. In football, baseball, basketball all of the major sports here, defense is critical and of more importance in the postseason. Props to posters quoted below:


Backcourt players generally can't affect a team defense nearly as much front court players so the Tony Allen Kobe comparison doesn't really apply here.

All advanced data shows that KG, Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan level big man defenders can and do impact their defense by as many points per possession as the top offensive players improve their offense if not more.

Milbuck wrote:
But rarely do I see people talking about how KG near singlehandedly elevated a defense at a historic level at his peak. 5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench, overall 6th...112 ORTG with a 92 DRTG.



And the trend also shows that front court players generally can't affect an offense nearly as much as a Kobe, Wade, Paul, etc perimeter player. So what you're saying is true of Backcourts and false for front courts.

In the playoffs great defense wins much more than the great offense. Even in the great offense era, Boston won on defense. When Wade took over the finals against Dallas, only great defense would have been the remedy. To suggest more offense as the remedy is just insane. People here are mentioning Dirk as top ten all time offensively - he wasn't going to outdo Wade. Kobe was similar to Wade in '08. Defense was the counter - not more offense.

If you play defense at the level of KG it has to be considered superior to good offense. If you are controlling the game all game long through defense, it's as important as any other aspect of the game. Another players high scoring game is inferior to a team working together to making the opposing team play an inferior brand of ball, especially in the playoffs.

After you add assist and steals, KG is close with any of the PF's in scoring. But after his team moves up 15 notches in defense when he comes back in the game, he's affecting much points at the end of the game than them all of them (save Duncan who has a very similar impact as KG defensively).

You guys may not like it... But it's the truth.

[CelticBaller]

Sure, if Cousins is a franchise player.

The one thing I never understand about KG stans are when they sprout this bs about him being futuristic and different with his ability to shoot and guard the P/R (and in turn inability to post up and really defend the rim) but glance over the fact that he missed the playoffs 3 years straight in his 'prime'.

He didn't choose to shoot jumpers, he had to. There is a reason Duncan won 5 rings (4 as the best player) and KG won one. Though I have him second all time amongst PF's didn't Barkley drag weak teams to the playoffs?
Can you name his supporting cast those years?

Inability to be a rim protector yet being the anchor of some of the best defensive teams? Yep

[Nowitness]

Can you name his supporting cast those years?

Inability to be a rim protector yet being the anchor of some of the best defensive teams? Yep

Can you name who Barkley had in the late eighties?

[CelticBaller]

Can you name who Barkley had in the late eighties?
And who the hell takes that away from Barkley? Barkley is considered one of the best players without a ring. The fact is that KG was more talented, and both got to play with other all stars late in their prime with KG actually leading the defense to a ring

I would take KG on skill alone though

[CelticBaller]

I think the whole offense > defense argument is vastly inflated, people are so quick to point out perceived offensive flaws but defensive impact is rarely given the full credit it deserves...and this is mostly evident in KG's case. And this is another reason why I think Duncan and Hakeem's peaks are to an extent underrated, but that's a topic for another day.

Why shouldn't we hold it against ATGs who, even at their best, were transcendent offensive players but were either below average, average, or just somewhat above average defenders impact-wise? I'm not disputing that elite offense beats elite defense, but the extent to which this argument is pushed is often excessive. Why should an elite offensive weapon with all-time great defense be denigrated in favor of an all-time great offensive weapon with borderline negligible defense?

We're nitpicking here about KG's offensive game, despite him being a 23/5 player over his 8 best seasons, and 24/6 at his peak, with a high-quality versatile scoring ability (though not on the level of a Duncan or a Hakeem or a Dirk), and GOAT-level passing for his position...and this is all at an incredibly low pace..in 2004 TWolves were running at a pace of 89 which not only occurred in an era of lower pace, but was good for 21st in the league..no doubt his stats aren't gonna look insane on the surface. And even ignoring the raw stats, look at his impact: in his peak year, the Timberwolves were running the 3rd best offense with KG on the floor, and by far the worst with him off, overall 5th. Still, people view his offense like it was a clear weakness, as if his peak version wouldn't be the clear-cut best offensive power forward in the game today.

But rarely do I see people talking about how KG near singlehandedly elevated a defense at a historic level at his peak. 5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench, overall 6th...112 ORTG with a 92 DRTG..

Impact wise that whole year he was at a net +20.7 in the regular season, +26.7 in the playoffs...I don't really put too much stock into RAPM but to throw it out there, dude was at 10.4 RAPM which is 0.1 ahead of Duncan and 0.1 behind Shaq. 29.7 PER, .272 WS/48, 9.1 VORP (metric comparing impact over an average player), all three higher than any Duncan season..not to knock Duncan, just for some perspective. And this was done on a 58 win, WCF team that lost to Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton...with 34 year old Cassel and 33 year old Sprewell as 2nd and 3rd options (not knocking them, but the talent discrepancy is pretty obvious).

Dude never won during his best years, so the narrative of "KG was great but he had some clear weaknesses and wasn't an ideal centerpiece" is pushed incessantly, despite proving with Boston that if you gave him the great talent that other all-time greats had, he could lead a dominant championship team...in the tail end of his prime. I really wonder how badly prime/peak Minnesota KG would've raped the league had he had teammates like Pippen/Rodman for Jordan, or Shaq/Gasol for Kobe, Kobe/Wade for Shaq, Wade/Bosh for Lebron, McHale/Parish/DJ for Bird, Kareem/Worthy/Scott for Magic, Ginobili/Parker for Duncan, etc.
God I love you :applause:

[Pointguard]

Sure, if Cousins is a franchise player.

The one thing I never understand about KG stans are when they sprout this bs about him being futuristic and different with his ability to shoot and guard the P/R (and in turn inability to post up and really defend the rim) but glance over the fact that he missed the playoffs 3 years straight in his 'prime'.

He didn't choose to shoot jumpers, he had to. There is a reason Duncan won 5 rings (4 as the best player) and KG won one. Though I have him second all time amongst PF's didn't Barkley drag weak teams to the playoffs?

This was already addressed. He played for the worse franchise in the game, in a game that organization means everything. They were committed to rebuilding, and lost three first round draft picks for KG's backup, not even a player that complimented KG. Once again the first year KG played for a good organization he won immediately. They won on defense without really having a lot defensive pieces.

KG didn't have one team built around him. Not one. Never had a consistent shooter. KG Made Nestrovic look like a player and SA stole him from Minny, but SA found out he was product of KG's play and couldn't play with Duncan. Minny couldn't keep a player like that, much less a star. The three years you are talking about Wally/Ricky Davis were the second best players. They were not constructed for offense or defense and didn't have supporting talent. So if you can show me a team like that, that made the playoffs you might be saying something. But you right now you aren't.

[Nowitness]

Are we glossing past the fact that he took $126 million contract or...

I acknowledge he is the second greatest PF. My only point is there is no way to slice a player who missed the playoffs for 1/3 of his prime being a top 10 player.

[Pointguard]

Can you name who Barkley had in the late eighties?
'87 Irving (17ppg), Cheeks, Cliff Robinson, Sedale Threat, Jeff Ruland, Andrew Toney still contributing.
'88 they had Gminski, Cheeks, Cliff Robinson and shot blocker Hinson.
'89 they were the third best offensive team in the league with six players over 15ppg.

And they had years of playing together.

[julizaver]

15 -18 as a player. First of the PF's after Duncan who I have top six. Some days I have Malone over KG. KG is the only PF that could play Duncan equal in every category. And he did in their 5 year primes. Duncan just has a crazy resume.

Malone was crazy for me. He was a contemporary of Charles and you could take his 8 best years and it would be right on par with Barkley's best year, which was a deviation from his other best years save one year. Barkley at his best was better than even Duncan to me. IMO, His approach to the game was very different from the other great PF's. He wasn't as serious.

We didn't have much differences at all. We agree about Barkley's peak, you have Malone over KG at some point while I still keep ahead in my list.
I also posted yesterday that I could choose KG ahead of CB when starting a team because of Barkley off-field activities (you said "he wasn't serious"). I also agree about Dunkan's resume which is awesome, valid and strong argument (in his case). You have KG 15-18 as a player which is not far away from my evaluation of being near Top20.

So as I respect his game also the things comes to how we evaluate and measure the different aspects of the game which could be some long discussion and that's why we have those small differences/personal preferencies. :cheers:

[tamaraw08]

Sure, if Cousins is a franchise player.

The one thing I never understand about KG stans are when they sprout this bs about him being futuristic and different with his ability to shoot and guard the P/R (and in turn inability to post up and really defend the rim) but glance over the fact that he missed the playoffs 3 years straight in his 'prime'.

He didn't choose to shoot jumpers, he had to. There is a reason Duncan won 5 rings (4 as the best player) and KG won one. Though I have him second all time amongst PF's didn't Barkley drag weak teams to the playoffs?

If you put a body suit and a mask on both KG and Pau, I bet the majority would pick Pau over KG bec no one would see his intimidating scowl, bulging eyes etc.
That Pau is a MUCH BETTER low post scorer with his variety of moves, from sweeping left AND right hooks, jump hooks, spins and drop steps PLUS he is a much BETTER PASSER than KG.

[CelticBaller]

If you put a body suit and a mask on both KG and Pau, I bet the majority would pick Pau over KG bec no one would see his intimidating scowl, bulging eyes etc.
That Pau is a MUCH BETTER low post scorer with his variety of moves, from sweeping left AND right hooks, jump hooks, spins and drop steps PLUS he is a much BETTER PASSER than KG.
:facepalm
Prime Pau:
20.8 ppg 9.8 reb 3.4 ast 2.1 blk .5 stl on 53% and 74 FT%

Prime KG:

22.2 ppg 13.5 reb 5.7 ast 1.4 blk 1.5 stl on 50% and 81 FT%


Both as the focal point of their offense/defense, and this was just a random year from Garnett's prime, not even his best

[Pointguard]

We didn't have much differences at all. We agree about Barkley's peak, you have Malone over KG at some point while I still keep ahead in my list.
I also posted yesterday that I could choose KG ahead of CB when starting a team because of Barkley off-field activities (you said "he wasn't serious"). I also agree about Dunkan's resume which is awesome, valid and strong argument (in his case). You have KG 15-18 as a player which is not far away from my evaluation of being near Top20.

So as I respect his game also the things comes to how we evaluate and measure the different aspects of the game which could be some long discussion and that's why we have those small differences/personal preferencies. :cheers:
:cheers:

[Pointguard]

If you put a body suit and a mask on both KG and Pau, I bet the majority would pick Pau over KG bec no one would see his intimidating scowl, bulging eyes etc.
That Pau is a MUCH BETTER low post scorer with his variety of moves, from sweeping left AND right hooks, jump hooks, spins and drop steps PLUS he is a much BETTER PASSER than KG.

KG would be the one winning a clear cut MVP when three other top 10 players were in their prime or a year away from it.

[Demitri98]

1) Where do you rank him all-time now? 15-19 range

2) Where would you rank him if both:
• Cassell never goes down with a bad back in the 04 playoffs, Minny makes the Finals
• KG doesn't have the knee injury in 09, Boston makes the Finals if everything else is unchanged? If Minny makes the Finals he might not leave for Boston in 07. But for the sake of this scenario, assuming the lose in 04 and 09, still around 15-19, depending entirely upon his play in the Finals.

3) Same as (2), but Boston wins it all in 09 (2 titles total). If he wins FMVP, arguably top 10. If not, 12-15 range.

4)Same as (3), but Minny wins it all in 04 (3 titles total). It's safe to assume he wins the FMVP in 04... and say he wins at least 1 of the 2 in Boston...probably 7th or 8th all time above Hakeem, Big O, West, Dr J, and even could potentially have an argument over Wilt. Maybe.

[tamaraw08]

:facepalm
Prime Pau:
20.8 ppg 9.8 reb 3.4 ast 2.1 blk .5 stl on 53% and 74 FT%

Prime KG:

22.2 ppg 13.5 reb 5.7 ast 1.4 blk 1.5 stl on 50% and 81 FT%


Both as the focal point of their offense/defense, and this was just a random year from Garnett's prime, not even his best

Yeah, you enjoying his 8pts per game this last 2 yrs?:cry:
When the team badly needs his scoring without Pierce and and kind of scoring esp when Brook Lopes is not playing?:confusedshrug:
Do you even want to know Pau's average this year?
Prime Pau's numbers? You mean when Kobe as taking like 26 shots per game?
But don't just focus on that, just take a look at how they get their points? HOw good in KG in the low post, really? take away his turn around shot, does he do left hooks? drop steps?

[Pointguard]

Yeah, you enjoying his 8pts per game this last 2 yrs?:cry:
When the team badly needs his scoring without Pierce and and kind of scoring esp when Brook Lopes is not playing?:confusedshrug:
Do you even want to know Pau's average this year?
Prime Pau's numbers? You mean when Kobe as taking like 26 shots per game?
But don't just focus on that, just take a look at how they get their points? HOw good in KG in the low post, really? take away his turn around shot, does he do left hooks? drop steps?
Wow, didn't know you were semi serious. Pau was barely ever a top ten player. Much less the best player in the game. Now your post will go to the stupidest things said on ish.

[VengefulAngel]

Wow, didn't know you were semi serious. Pau was barely ever a top ten player. Much less the best player in the game. Now your post will go to the stupidest things said on ish.


Pau was clearly top 10 though, you could argue he was top 5.

[swagga]

Wow, didn't know you were semi serious. Pau was barely ever a top ten player. Much less the best player in the game. Now your post will go to the stupidest things said on ish.

pau was a top 7-8, arguably top 5 player in 2009.

[CelticBaller]

Yeah, you enjoying his 8pts per game this last 2 yrs?:cry:
When the team badly needs his scoring without Pierce and and kind of scoring esp when Brook Lopes is not playing?:confusedshrug:
Do you even want to know Pau's average this year?
Prime Pau's numbers? You mean when Kobe as taking like 26 shots per game?
But don't just focus on that, just take a look at how they get their points? HOw good in KG in the low post, really? take away his turn around shot, does he do left hooks? drop steps?
Do you want to know how I know you're an idiot? You're comparing a 20th season KG to a 13th season Pau. Also the stats I posted was his best season in Memphis, so think twice before you make yourself look like an idiot

[Pointguard]

Pau was clearly top 10 though, you could argue he was top 5.
2010 I can't really place him above 8.

Lebron
Kobe
Durant
Wade
Dwight

Were the first team. Who are you saying he was better than? One could only argue Durant might not belong in the top five. Duncan, Dirk and Mello still were better than Pau. Bosh was crazy that year. 24/11 36% from three point land.

Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Wade
Dwight

Dirk
Mello

Those seven are safe.

To me the best Pau can be is really eight. Most here would not have him ahead of Durant and Bosh who was crazy that year. Chris Paul, Nash and Deron Williams are also vying for a top ten spot. Pau will usually fall 8 thru 12.

The cluster of
Bosh
Durant
Chris Paul
Nash
Deron
and Pau are very close.

That is why I said barely top ten.

The previous year Yao, KG, Chris Paul, Brando Roy Nash and Paul Pierce create a similar problem. But this is why I said barely.

[LiLharvard]

1. Around 15-19
2. around the same
3. 11-15
4. 11

my top 15 is as follows

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
West
M. Malone
Thomas
K. Malone
Pippen


:coleman: