Stockton is criminally underrated...

[Force]

All the hoopla about Kobe playing "so good" at 36 years old brought this to mind.

It's sad the younger generation loses touch…. Do people even know how incredible of a defender Stockton was? Stockton retired at 41 years old and incredibly didn't miss 1 game in the final FOUR years of his career.

What were his numbers like as an old man over those last 4 years?

I'm doing the numbers in my head but it's about...
30minutes, 12pts, 8.5 ast, nearly 2 stls on 50% shooting. Think about that. Those are his numbers several years past his physical prime.

John Stockton never got a chance to play when the rules changed and made it easy for point guards. He never got to play without the hand check, he never got to play when they made it illegal for defenders to be in the paint like it is today. (maybe his last 2 years he played with those rules)

I wasn't a fan as a kid since I never cheered for Utah but you go look at his games now and show me somebody in the league today who can play the pick and roll like that. It makes me cringe when people start throwing the Roses and Westbrook type players already into the "all time" category…damn sad.

[6 for 24]

Pop quiz time!

Which record will be broken first?

Stockton's assist record?

OR

Kobe's Kobe-assist-opportunity record?

Two greats forever intertwined in history!

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

[Nowitness]

Solid player. Role player in today's game.

Problem is the dude was never a threat to go off. Isn't his career high like 34 points? He benefited from a great system, and a PF who could play alongside him.

Dude never really had a peak. Like Bill Simmons said, he was good, but he was never - for example - Gary Payton good. Consistent? Sure. But 24/9/7/3 with elite defence and great range? Never. He was a great locker room guy, prolly gave you a better chance of winning but I'd take GP, both Hardaways and even KJ at his peak over Stockton.

Phucking Alcoholic faced, lego hair cut scrub.

[AirFederer]

Underrated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJCwyh0fDGw

Glove goes OTT doe :lol

[Smoke117]

Pop quiz time!

Which record will be broken first?

Stockton's assist record?

OR

Kobe's Kobe-assist-opportunity record?

Two greats forever intertwined in history!

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

Stocktons record for assist and steals will stand for years...and years. It's kind of amusing how underrated someone can be...when they have two records that are almost out of reach. It's not just consistency either...it was greatness and consistency tied in a knot that nobody could figure out.

[Nowitness]

Nah. It was consistency and longevity mixed with system and people looking past his failures until 97...

Plus everything I listed above.

[Force]

Solid player. Role player in today's game.



INSANE.

So like, Ty Lawson >>>Stockton
????

Truth is Stockson would have been better in todays league, FAR better with todays rules. Jeremy Lin and JJ Barea can take over games but John Stockton is a role player. OK. Stockton played basketball with about as much effort as Dennis Rodman. Pretty sure GP said he was the toughest guy he ever had to match up against. Defense was insane..passing was silly..

BTW. In 2002, when he was 40, he put up 13 and 9, almost 2 steals over 82 games

[9erempiree]

:facepalm

He's not underrated when he is considered one of the two greatest PG in history.

[Reggie43]

Is there even a pointguard outside of Magic that could touch his peak year numbers of around 17ppg 50+fg% 14apg and 3spg?

[Nowitness]

[QUOTE=Force]INSANE.

So like, Ty Lawson >>>Stockton
????

Truth is Stockson would have been better in todays league, FAR better with todays rules. Jeremy Lin and JJ Barea can take over games but John Stockton is a role player. OK. Stockton played basketball with about as much effort as Dennis Rodman. Pretty sure GP said he was the toughest guy he ever had to match up against. Defense was insane..passing was silly..

BTW. In 2002, when he was 40, he put up 13 and 9, almost 2 steals over 82 games

[Reggie43]

Sad that Stockton always making the right play and making the system work is seen as a negative as opposed to volume scoring pointguards who may have big games but also shoot their teams out of games more often than not..

[Penny37]

Pretty much. Are we just glossing over the fact that most of his assists came from a top 3 PF and coach?

Face facts; he was consistent, he couldn't shine.

GP/KJ/TH/PH Peaks >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stockton's.

Fact: Stockton averaged MORE assists in games that Malone didn't play.

[Nowitness]

Fact: Stockton averaged MORE assists in games that Malone didn't play.

Myth confirmed.

[Xiao Yao You]

Solid player. Role player in today's game.

Problem is the dude was never a threat to go off. Isn't his career high like 34 points? He benefited from a great system, and a PF who could play alongside him.

Dude never really had a peak. Like Bill Simmons said, he was good, but he was never - for example - Gary Payton good. Consistent? Sure. But 24/9/7/3 with elite defence and great range? Never. He was a great locker room guy, prolly gave you a better chance of winning but I'd take GP, both Hardaways and even KJ at his peak over Stockton.

Phucking Alcoholic faced, lego hair cut scrub.

:rolleyes:

Would have been great in any system. Best numbers he ever put up I believe was the '88 playoffs when they were running not playing the slow down game of Sloan. He was supposed to rebound too?

[SugarHill]

Solid player. Role player in today's game.

Problem is the dude was never a threat to go off. Isn't his career high like 34 points? He benefited from a great system, and a PF who could play alongside him.

Dude never really had a peak. Like Bill Simmons said, he was good, but he was never - for example - Gary Payton good. Consistent? Sure. But 24/9/7/3 with elite defence and great range? Never. He was a great locker room guy, prolly gave you a better chance of winning but I'd take GP, both Hardaways and even KJ at his peak over Stockton.

Phucking Alcoholic faced, lego hair cut scrub.

17/14/3stls = role player :rolleyes:

[Marchesk]

:facepalm

He's not underrated when he is considered one of the two greatest PG in history.

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/campus-rivalry/2011/01/26/robertsonx-large.jpg

[Force]

I don't have a problem is someone says GP or whoever is >>> than Stockton. I would choose GP as well. Prime KJ would be an MVP candidate if he played now.

The problem I have is that there are plenty out there who actually think Stockton would be unable to play in todays league. The younger folks who didn't watch basketball until 99-00. There are people out like the poster above who think Stockton would be a role player in todays game. How can anybody possibly think this?

It's like a kid today trying to convince me that Wiz Khalifa is on par with KRS-1 or Rakim. They just lack the homework.

[Fallen Angel]

The problem I have is that there are plenty out there who actually think Stockton would be unable to play in todays league.

No, they aren't plenty. :rolleyes:

Aside from the obvious trolls, who here legitimately thinks Stockton wouldn't be able to play in today's league?

But I do agree, Stockton is underrated.

[FatComputerNerd]

Add Price to that list. :rant

[Nowitness]

Add Price to that list. :rant

Comparable to Dellavedova in today's game TBH.

[FatComputerNerd]

Comparable to Dellavedova in today's game TBH.

I hope you're joking :oldlol:

Price was Elite, an all-star and was considered the best (or second best after Stockton) PG in the league for a while.

-from Wiki:

Price was known as one of the league's most consistent shooters. He finished his career with a 90.4% free throw shooting percentage and a 40% three-point field goal shooting percentage.

During the 1988–89 season, Price became the second player, after Larry Bird, to join the NBA's 50-40-90 Club for those who shot at least 40% from three-point range, at least 50% from the field and at least 90% from the free throw line in a single season, and is still one of only six players to have ever done this while also achieving the NBA league minimum number of makes in each category.

Price ranked consistently among the assist leaders (as of December 2009, he is the Cavaliers all-time leader with 4,206), twice won the Three Point Contest, and was a four-time All-Star. Price was named to the All-NBA First Team after the 1992–93 season. Price currently ranks second in franchise steals with 734, a Cavaliers record that stood until December 9, 2008 when LeBron James surpassed him.

Another one of Price's distinguishing traits on the court was his pioneering of the splitting of the double team. As former teammate Steve Kerr explains, “Mark really revolutionized the way that people attack the screen and roll. To me, he was the first guy in the NBA who really split the screen and roll. A lot of teams started blitzing the pick and roll and jumping two guys at it to take the ball out of the hands of the point guard. He’d duck right between them and shoot that little runner in the lane. Nobody was doing that at that time. You watch an NBA game now and almost everybody does that. Mark was a pioneer in that regard."

[T_L_P]

[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]I hope you're joking :oldlol:

Price was Elite, an all-star and was considered the best (or second best after Stockton) PG in the league for a while.

-from Wiki:

Price was known as one of the league's most consistent shooters. He finished his career with a 90.4% free throw shooting percentage and a 40% three-point field goal shooting percentage.

During the 1988

[FatComputerNerd]

I personally think Porter was better than Price, but the Dellavedova comparison is obviously retarded.

Porter was probably more versatile. He was one of my favorite non-cavaliers from that era.

A young/prime Price would literally be unstoppable in today's league though, w/o handchecking.

[Nowitness]

Looks like nostalgia is hitting the racist pro-white posters today. Face it Stockton/Price would be nothing today.

Mully and Walton are literally the only historic white players who'd dominate today (and I mean MVP).

Hondo. Nah. Price. Nah. Stockton. Nah. West. Nah. Mikan. Nah. Lucas. Nah.

[FatComputerNerd]

Looks like nostalgia is hitting the racist pro-white posters today. Face it Stockton/Price would be nothing today.

Mully and Walton are literally the only historic white players who'd dominate today (and I mean MVP).

Hondo. Nah. Price. Nah. Stockton. Nah. West. Nah. Mikan. Nah. Lucas. Nah.

I'm not even White jackass. :banana:

[houston]

he rated right

[imdaman99]

He's an all time great. He is like Steve Nash with defense. He didn't play in a helter skelter run and gun offense like Nash did, but that pick and roll was near unguardable. He is a top 5 PG of all time.

[Nowitness]

He's an all time great. He is like Steve Nash with defense. He didn't play in a helter skelter run and gun offense like Nash did, but that pick and roll was near unguardable. He is a top 5 PG of all time.

But he was average on D at best by the time he started 'winning'.

Don't accept the comment. GP and Clyde are the only truly great defensive PG's with Kidd being very good.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Honestly I'd rank him over Steve Nash. Stockton's one of the greatest passers of all time. Steve Nash played on much better NBA teams yet still couldn't take any of his play-off teams to the finals. Stockton made bums like Ostertag, Benoit, Byron Russell, Foster, and Keefe look like serviceable players with his passing.

[Alan Ogg]

Is there even a pointguard outside of Magic that could touch his peak year numbers of around 17ppg 50+fg% 14apg and 3spg?

Kevin Johnson was putting up 20-22 ppg 10-12 apg on 50+fg% in the same era. He had 3 consecutive 20/10+ years, nearly 4.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

[Alan Ogg]

More Payton on Stockton as his toughest match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

[FatComputerNerd]

But he was average on D at best by the time he started 'winning'.

Don't accept the comment. GP and Clyde are the only truly great defensive PG's with Kidd being very good.

Stockton was a great, fundamentally sound defensive PG, but I do think his defense is slightly overrated by the general populace due to his career steals.

He played for 19 seasons, and did not miss very many games. In fact, only 3 of those 19 seasons did he miss any games at all. 78 GP in 87-88, 64 GP in 97-98, 50 GP in 98-99. The other 16 seasons he played 82 games. This is actually impressive in and of itself, but that's another topic, lol.

Also, I think there was at least a season or two where Malone had as many if not more steals than Stockton, and Stockton only actually led the league in steals for a season twice...

All that being said, he was a great defensive PG. I grew up in that era and watched him. He was very scrappy, tough and strong for his size, and was a more than solid on the ball defender. A lot of his steals came from strips on man-defense, rather than gambling the passing lanes.

Meanwhile, you're forgetting guys like Mookie, Brevin Knight (homer pick but he was great on D), Rondo, Conley, Jrue, Wall, Hinrich...I'm probably forgetting a few. All truly great defensive PG's

[IllegalD]

Yet 0 rings playing his entire career with "The Greatest PF of all time"... :no:

And you want to b*tch about the "Kobe hoopla".... :roll:

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I always find it interesting how other players say Malone benefitted more from playing with Stockton than the other way around.

Says it all regarding Stockton's ability and the dynamic between those two.

[FatComputerNerd]

John Stockton - The Ultimate Point Guard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myMvojT6zIc


Perfect music! :oldlol:

[joshwake]

It really is sad kids these days don't value the true point guard anymore. I watched Stockton in his prime when I was a kid, and what many don't realize is that he could score when he wanted to, and efficiently. He just evaluated the game as a whole and always picked apart the defense in order to get the most efficient shot possible. It didn't matter who shot it. If he played today, he would probably have a different play style because all the best players could adapt to the game they played in. Stockton was one of the greats, and he would be a helluva lot more than a role player in today's game. Anyone that tries to argue that is just uneducated when it comes to basketball. I mean, if Nash calls him the greatest PG of all time.... I would tend to take his opinion over any scrub on a message board.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pf80CvfVpc

[InfiniteBaskets]

Stockton in his prime was averaging close to 14 assists per game. There are dudes that come into this league as a PG, make millions, leave it years later, and NEVER grab 14 assists even in one game.

Like people said, Stockton always made the right play, and rarely made any mistakes. He would be the PG equivalent of Duncan if Duncan were drafted by the Jazz or some other irrelevant team.

[tontoz]

I am sure Stockton/Isiah/Price/KJ would have all been thrilled to play under todays rules. Opposing teams used to beat the crap out of them.

[j3lademaster]

NO ONE in history understood angles like this guy save for maybe Larry Bird. But I don't know about underrated, most people have him in their top 3 pg of all time and I really don't see any case he'd have over Magic. Stockton is interchangeable with ranks 2-5 on the pg list without being considered over or underrated imo.

[ILLsmak]

More Payton on Stockton as his toughest match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

yea gotta post this cuz boooop

-Smak

[Round Mound]

The Best Pure PG Ever :confusedshrug:

[Done_And_Done]

Comparable to Dellavedova in today's game TBH.

:lol Common man lol

[bdreason]

If anything his peak is overrated. I here people say he was better than Isiah Thomas, which is laughable.

[tpols]

Comparable to Dellavedova in today's game TBH.
Poor man's delladova:lol

[tpols]

Looks like nostalgia is hitting the racist pro-white posters today. Face it Stockton/Price would be nothing today.

Mully and Walton are literally the only historic white players who'd dominate today (and I mean MVP).

Hondo. Nah. Price. Nah. Stockton. Nah. West. Nah. Mikan. Nah. Lucas. Nah.

Ironic your name is a variation of Dirks.. Unless this is sarcasm.

[Kvnzhangyay]

If anything his peak is overrated. I here people say he was better than Isiah Thomas, which is laughable.

why is it laughable? I believe it is completely arguable (I actually feel that stockton has a higher case above Isiah then vice versa...)

[Nowitness]

The Best Pure PG Ever :confusedshrug:

Wow you really are a stan for 90s players.

But Isiah rejects this statement.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

:facepalm

He's not underrated when he is considered one of the two greatest PG in history.
kinda my first thought (can't believe I agree w/ you!)

Yeah, Stockton just kinda gets forgotten on overall lists, but I think there was a PG list here last year and he was pretty much unanimous Top 2, some maybe had him at #3.


:blah
:oldlol: ... :facepalm

[Bless Mathews]

Stocktons iq was off the charts. One of the smartest to play.

Even for the much higher iq played 90's.

Shit, he'd put up even more assists Cus all the players are more skilled today right, 90's era haters??

Lol

His iq alone in today's game would net him 14+ assists a game alone.

I didn't like the lil fuccer. Dirty as fucc. But he is an all time great and would be all star in any era. You kids don't know.

[bizil]

When it comes to PG's, I feel u have three different styles that are highly effective:

Pass first PG who also has alpha dog ability: Players such as Magic, Isiah, Big O, Tiny, CP3, Payton, Frazier, Price, KJ, Tim Hardaway, Nash (very underrated for his alpha ability)

Score first PG who is a very good-great passer: Players such as Curry, Westbrook, Rose, Parker, Arenas, etc.

Pass first PG who isn't an alpha dog kind of scorer: Stockton, Kidd, Cousy, Mark Jackson, Mo Cheeks

Typically, I prefer my PG to be pass first and can dominate scoring. That's why Magic, Big O, and Isiah are the best PG's of all time peak wise and GOAT wise. But in terms of the most premium asset at PG WHICH is dropping dimes and being a true floor general, Stockton is arguably the best of all time. At worst, he's 3 or 4. Skill for skill on both sides of the rock, only CP3 was more well rounded at that 6'0 to 6'1 size.

I see many people debating Isiah vs. Stock peak wise. And for me, I gotta go Isiah. Too much scoring ability to go with tremendous passing and handles. However GOAT wise, Stock is one of the top five PG's of all time along with Magic, Big O, Isiah, and Walt Frazier.

[Nowitness]

kinda my first thought (can't believe I agree w/ you!)

Yeah, Stockton just kinda gets forgotten on overall lists, but I think there was a PG list here last year and he was pretty much unanimous Top 2, some maybe had him at #3.


:oldlol: ... :facepalm

Damn alcoholic faced, lego hair cut cheating phuck.

[Reggie43]

Kevin Johnson was putting up 20-22 ppg 10-12 apg on 50+fg% in the same era. He had 3 consecutive 20/10+ years, nearly 4.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

Yeah obviously comparable but Stockton had a 3 year stretch of 17/14/3 which imo is better espeacially if you factor in the defensive side of the game because he was doubling kj's totals in regards to steals in some years. In regards to the comparison I dont find fault in someone taking one over the other because they are obviously both alltime great point guards with diff styles of play so its just a matter of preference.

[IamRAMBO24]

Stockton was harder to guard than Jordan because he was ultilizing the entire team to score. His passing was so pinpoint all the players had to do was catch and shoot. Basically, you can say he was shooting with 10 hands instead of 2. For the people who say he can't go off, what about this game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiUBGD2rQ8E

28 assists = going off

The scoring record will be beaten in a decade or so, but Stockton's records of assists and steals will probably not be beaten in our lifetime. It is up there with Emmitt's rushing record.

I also heard Barkley saying Stockton is harder to guard than Jordan. I can't find the clip anywhere, but basically he said he is the best player to ever play the game.

[DCL]

"criminally underrated"... is that the new buzz phrase?

[Round Mound]

He is White and He Doesn`t Dunk. Those Are Reasons Why Many Underrate Him.

[Nowitness]

He is White and He Doesn`t Dunk. Those Are Reasons Why Many Underrate Him.

Damn alcoholic faced, lego hair cut cheating phuck.

[L.A. Jazz]

He was like Steve Nash + defense.
Put him an the D'Antoni Suns...

top 5 PG of alltime in most peoples list. so not underrated. properly rated.