Where Are All of the Great "Non-USA" Players?

[LAZERUSS]

I posted this question in another topic, but it is worth revisiting...

For those who claim that the game of basketball has grown exponentially since the 60's, 70's, and 80's...due to the popularity of the game in the rest of the world...

I ask you...where are all of the great players from Europe, China, India, and the African and South American continents?

Aside from Dirk, Parker, Peja, Manu, Vlade, the Gasols, a prime Yao, and certainly a prime Sabonis, as well as a few other players that I am forgetting at the moment...where are of the other greats from the rest of the world?

[SpanishACB]

I posted this question in another topic, but it is worth revisiting...

For those who claim that the game of basketball has grown exponentially since the 60's, 70's, and 80's...due to the popularity of the game in the rest of the world...

I ask you...where are all of the great players from Europe, China, India, and the African and South American continents?

Aside from Dirk, Parker, Peja, Manu, Vlade, the Gasols, a prime Yao, and certainly a prime Sabonis, as well as a few other players that I am forgetting at the moment...where are of the other greats from the rest of the world?

There are not as many american players as good as those you mentioend mind, all of them besides Yao have a ring, or multiple rings whilst being center pieces to their teams.

As for your question, it's a pretty stupid question don't you think? Do you want an actual answer or is this just a feel good thread were you tell us about your patriotism with some sort of hidden message no one is going to give a **** about?

[SexSymbol]

How's spending Christmas alone?

[Dr.J4ever]

I posted this question in another topic, but it is worth revisiting...

For those who claim that the game of basketball has grown exponentially since the 60's, 70's, and 80's...due to the popularity of the game in the rest of the world...

I ask you...where are all of the great players from Europe, China, India, and the African and South American continents?

Aside from Dirk, Parker, Peja, Manu, Vlade, the Gasols, a prime Yao, and certainly a prime Sabonis, as well as a few other players that I am forgetting at the moment...where are of the other greats from the rest of the world?

It's not just the greats though. The world has produced a lot of mid level players that can make NBA rosters. Thereby this, in effect, reduces the no. of jobs available for Americans on NBA rosters. There are already more non-US players on NBA rosters than there has ever been. So in past years, some of those Americans would have made these rosters today, if not for the internationals..

It's not just the players themselves too. It's also the new style of play they have brought in. Many internationals play a style that's more fundamental. They have certainly brought a fresh approach and flair to the NBA game.

Some don't like it, but I think overall, it has been for the good of the game.

[SpanishACB]

Not to mention most of the role player NBA ready guys playing in Europe rather play in Europe than have to work their way up in the NBA with no real guarantee of success and lots of precedented failures through history.

But this is slowly changing, the more open NBA coaches and in general lose the prejudices et al, and european players become more confident in said move (regardless of them being just good squad players) you'll see more and more european role players. Specially if "spurs-ball" is the answer to the actual NBA rules, kids in europe are coached better fundamentals from young age, at least, to play said style even though they're not as good in other aspects of the game, like finishing, handling the ball, or athletic abiltiy, **in general**

[Dr.J4ever]

Not to mention most of the role player NBA ready guys playing in Europe rather play in Europe than have to work their way up in the NBA with no real guarantee of success and lots of precedented failures through history.

But this is slowly changing, the more open NBA coaches and in general lose the prejudices et al, and european players become more confident in said move (regardless of them being just good squad players) you'll see more and more european role players. Specially if "spurs-ball" is the answer to the actual NBA rules, kids in europe are coached better fundamentals from young age, at least, to play said style even though they're not as good in other aspects of the game, like finishing, handling the ball, or athletic abiltiy, **in general**

This is where we can agree:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

There are not as many american players as good as those you mentioend mind, all of them besides Yao have a ring, or multiple rings whilst being center pieces to their teams.

As for your question, it's a pretty stupid question don't you think? Do you want an actual answer or is this just a feel good thread were you tell us about your patriotism with some sort of hidden message no one is going to give a **** about?


You didn't answer my question, either. In the last THIRTY+ years, aside from Dirk...give me a list of truly GREAT NBA players that have come from outside of the U.S. (And yes, technically Duncan was "non-USA", but his game was certainly developed in the U.S.)

I have read countless claims here that the game has EXPLODED in the last 30 years, due to the spread to the rest of the world. Yet, while the entire rest of the world has produced SOME very good players, where are their GREAT players?

[LAZERUSS]

It's not just the greats though. The world has produced a lot of mid level players that can make NBA rosters. Thereby this, in effect, reduces the no. of jobs available for Americans on NBA rosters. There are already more non-US players on NBA rosters than there has ever been. So in past years, some of those Americans would have made these rosters today, if not for the internationals..

It's not just the players themselves too. It's also the new style of play they have brought in. Many internationals play a style that's more fundamental. They have certainly brought a fresh approach and flair to the NBA game.

Some don't like it, but I think overall, it has been for the good of the game.

Again, you didn't answer my question. I KNOW that there are, and have been, many "foreign" players on NBA rosters, but where are their GREAT players?

I will give you Dirk (and I suppose a case could be made for Duncan), but that it is IT in terms of truly GREAT players.

Yes, there have been quite a few GOOD "non-U.S" players, like Manu, Yao, the Gasols, Parker, Vlade, Peja, and some I am forgetting.

And even the most rational Sabonis fans have generally conceded that even a prime Sabonis, was not on the level of the truly GREAT NBA centers. But, even if we were to concede that he might have been, that still doesn't answer the original question, does it?

[Dresta]

You seem to have forgotten Hakeem, a pretty big omission.

[Dr.J4ever]

Again, you didn't answer my question. I KNOW that there are, and have been, many "foreign" players on NBA rosters, but where are their GREAT players?

I will give you Dirk (and I suppose a case could be made for Duncan), but that it is IT in terms of truly GREAT players.

Yes, there have been quite a few GOOD "non-U.S" players, like Manu, Yao, the Gasols, Parker, Vlade, Peja, and some I am forgetting.

And even the most rational Sabonis fans have generally conceded that even a prime Sabonis, was not on the level of the truly GREAT NBA centers. But, even if we were to concede that he might have been, that still doesn't answer the original question, does it?

You're right. There have not been a lot of truly great international players, just a handful really.

But so what? What are you getting at?

[GimmeThat]

busy being an wrapped talent

[dunksby]

Again, you didn't answer my question. I KNOW that there are, and have been, many "foreign" players on NBA rosters, but where are their GREAT players?

I will give you Dirk (and I suppose a case could be made for Duncan), but that it is IT in terms of truly GREAT players.

Yes, there have been quite a few GOOD "non-U.S" players, like Manu, Yao, the Gasols, Parker, Vlade, Peja, and some I am forgetting.

And even the most rational Sabonis fans have generally conceded that even a prime Sabonis, was not on the level of the truly GREAT NBA centers. But, even if we were to concede that he might have been, that still doesn't answer the original question, does it?
Drazen Petrovic was a great player.

[LAZERUSS]

You seem to have forgotten Hakeem, a pretty big omission.

True.

Hakeem and Dirk. GREAT NBA players.

BTW, Hakeem was nowhere near even a good basketball player until he was developed at Houston U.

He certainly didn't step off the plane and immediately begin dominating in the NBA.

[LAZERUSS]

You're right. There have not been a lot of truly great international players, just a handful really.

But so what? What are you getting at?

Just the FACT that with all of this "world-wide expansion" in the last 30 years, it's overall impact has not been dramatic. Where are the MJ's, the Shaq's, the Magic's?

You could make a case that Dirk is close to "Bird-level", but you could also argue that so was Barry.

With a world population that has far exceeded the U.S in the last 30 years, shouldn't there be a long list of truly GREAT "non-U.S." players?

[LAZERUSS]

How about the last FIVE years?

Where are the KD's, Lebron's, and AD's?

[Height Freak]

Great:

Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tony Parker
Drazen Petrovic
Oscar Schmidt

Very Good/Good:

Dikembe Mutombo
Manu Ginobili
Arvydas Sabonis
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Sarunas Marciulionis
Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Toni Kukoc
Peja Stojakovic
Vlade Divac

U.S. players born outside:

Patrick Ewing
Dominique Wilkins
Tim Duncan

[LAZERUSS]

Great:

Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tony Parker
Drazen Petrovic
Oscar Schmidt

Very Good/Good:

Dikembe Mutombo
Manu Ginobili
Arvydas Sabonis
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Sarunas Marciulionis
Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Toni Kukoc
Peja Stojakovic
Vlade Divac

U.S. players born outside:

Patrick Ewing
Dominique Wilkins
Tim Duncan

Good post, albeit I wouldn't classify Parker or Gasol as "great."

Nor can you really include Petrovic, as "great", either. In his late 20's and at his peak, he was a Third-Team All-NBA player.

Schmidt? We will really never know, will we? He is somewhat like Sabonis.

Hakeem? Completely developed in the U.S.

The rest of the list is not great.

And again...put that in context...

In 30+ years...that is IT. With a world-wide population that has far exceeded the U.S.

[robert de niro]

in this thread we can observe user LAZERUSS desperately trying to find a group of males to circlejerk with, only to find the poor old man having to do all the jerking alone

[Kvnzhangyay]

Who were the great non-usa players in the 60's?

[MavsSuperFan]

Good post, albeit I wouldn't classify Parker or Gasol as "great."

Nor can you really include Petrovic, as "great", either. In his late 20's and at his peak, he was a Third-Team All-NBA player.

Schmidt? We will really never know, will we? He is somewhat like Sabonis.

Hakeem? Completely developed in the U.S.

The rest of the list is not great.

And again...put that in context...

In 30+ years...that is IT. With a world-wide population that has far exceeded the U.S.

Its not about the amount of great players. it just a larger talent pool. Teams are logical they aren't just going to take a foreign player over a domestic one for some stupid reason. they do so because they think that player will help them win.

I have seen documentaries and quotes where people talk about how amazing Red Auerbach was because he was one of the first coaches that built his team to be the best regardless of races. In the past a lot of teams tried to stay artificially white for marketing reasons. Eg. they chose less qualified white players to fill out the rooster.

That doesnt happen nowadays. Also any international player in the league is (based on the opinion of a gm) superior to some domestic player. There did not used to be any international participation in the nba.

The league is overall more talented today than in the 1960s.

[LAZERUSS]

And the reverse?

http://www.euroleague.net/features/voices/2011-2012/vladimir-stankovic/i/93850/6180/bob-mcadoo-the-nba-and-european-champ

[QUOTE]When, in the summer of 1986, McAdoo signed for a Tracer Milano, which was then coached by Dan Peterson, he was almost 35 years old and many doubted his ability to play at a high level. The start of the European season confirmed the doubts. On October 30, 1986, Tracer lost in Thessaloniki to Aris by 31 points, 98-67. Nikos Galis destroyed the team with 44 points. Aris already led 60-34 at the halftime break. In the return game, played November 6 in Milan, one of the biggest comebacks in European competition ever took place. Tracer won 83-49. After a quiet first half, McAdoo led his team with 21 points and 9 rebounds. After the game, McAdoo admitted to his coach that it had been the most intense game of his career.

Second youth in Italy

Bob McAdoo After the miracle, Tracer Milano marched towards the European final... and won it! The rival in the final played on April 2, 1987, in Lausanne, Switzerland was Maccabi Tel Aviv. Tracer won 71-69 and McAdoo was the second-best scorer on his team (21 points) after Roberto Premier (23) and the best rebounder with 9 boards. The team from Milan was European champ again after 21 years.

The following year, with Franco Casalini as boss, Tracer repeated the victory in the first Final Four of the modern era (two experimental ones had taken place before in 1966 in Bologna and 1967 in Madrid). After a round-robin phase with eight teams, Partizan of Vlade Divac, Sasha Djordjevic, Zarko Paspalj and Zeljko Obradovic reached the Final Four in Ghent as leader with 10 wins and 4 losses. Galis and Panagiotis Gianakis took Aris to 9-5 to finish second and Tracer Milano - with Mike D'Antoni, Dino Meneghin, Ricky Brown, Premier and McAdoo - was third also at 9-5. Maccabi finished fourth with an 8-6 record led by Miki Berkowitz, Doron Jamchy, Kevin Magee and Ken Barlow. In the semifinals, Maccabi defeated Partizan 97-82 and Tracer defeated Aris by the same score. In the big final, a brilliant McAdoo (25 points, 12 rebounds) led Tracer to another win over Maccabi.

McAdoo played in Milan until 1990. The two following years he played in Forli with averages of 31.7 points and 9.6 rebounds. He put an end to his career in Teamsystem Fabriano in 1992-93 at 42 years old. Over seven seasons in Italy, he played 201 games, scored 5,427 points (27.3 ppg.) and averaged 9.0 boards per game. He won the Italian League twice, the Italian Cup once and one Intercontinental cup

[Height Freak]

Good post, albeit I wouldn't classify Parker or Gasol as "great."

Nor can you really include Petrovic, as "great", either. In his late 20's and at his peak, he was a Third-Team All-NBA player.

Schmidt? We will really never know, will we. He is somewhat like Sabonis.

Hakeem? Completely developed in the U.S.

The rest of the list is not great.

Sure, it all depends on opinion... I don't necesarilly measure Drazen's greatness based on his 4 year NBA career, but for what he accomplished in Europe and at International competition level. Same goes for Oscar Schmidt's.

I consider Gasol and Parker great for their eras too.

Again it's all a matter of opinion, all the players I mentioned were mentioned because they're at the least good/ very good.

[GimmeThat]

how many Americans could lead foreigners all while being considered an "all time great"

[LAZERUSS]

how many Americans could lead foreigners all while being considered an "all time great"

I suppose a washed up McAdoo might qualify.

[LAZERUSS]

Sure, it all depends on opinion... I don't necesarilly measure Drazen's greatness based on his 4 year NBA career, but for what he accomplished in Europe and at International competition level. Same goes for Oscar Schmidt's.

I consider Gasol and Parker great for their eras too.

Again it's all a matter of opinion, all the players I mentioned were mentioned because they're at the least good/ very good.

But even with that very small list, and with really only a handful of players, at best, being considered great NBA players...

don't you find it somewhat amazing, that in the 30 years of the "foreign invasion", that only a microscopic amount of international players have been at a truly elite level?

Here again, one of the knocks against the 60's, 70's, and to a lessor extent, the 80's, has been that those eras were played before the game became a "world-wide" phenomenon (albeit, basketball was played in the Olympics long before the 60's.)

And yet, as we have seen, while their has been a steady influx of international players, there simply has not been more than a handful that would have had a case as being truly GREAT NBA players in their careers.

[ProfessorMurder]

How's spending Christmas alone?
How's not knowing what day Christmas is?

[T_L_P]

Great:

Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tony Parker
Drazen Petrovic
Oscar Schmidt

Very Good/Good:

Dikembe Mutombo
Manu Ginobili
Arvydas Sabonis
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Sarunas Marciulionis
Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Toni Kukoc
Peja Stojakovic
Vlade Divac

U.S. players born outside:

Patrick Ewing
Dominique Wilkins
Tim Duncan

Parker over Manu, with Parker being in the "great" tier? Is this real life?

Solid list otherwise.

[IMObjective]

But even with that very small list, and with really only a handful of players, at best, being considered great NBA players...

don't you find it somewhat amazing, that in the 30 years of the "foreign invasion", that only a microscopic amount of international players have been at a truly elite level?

Here again, one of the knocks against the 60's, 70's, and to a lessor extent, the 80's, has been that those eras were played before the game became a "world-wide" phenomenon (albeit, basketball was played in the Olympics long before the 60's.)

And yet, as we have seen, while their has been a steady influx of international players, there simply has not been more than a handful that would have had a case as being truly GREAT NBA players in their careers.
I'm confused, is this about 'usa rules' or old era>current era?

[JohnMax]

Theres an influx of Canadians in the NBA

Nick Stauskas
Tristan Thompson
Andrew Wiggins
Anthony Bennett
Corey Joseph

[waseem780]

get ready for Joel Embiid :D

[IMObjective]

Theres an influx of Canadians in the NBA

Nick Stauskas
Tristan Thompson
Andrew Wiggins
Anthony Bennett
Corey Joseph
I predict that lazeruss will reply "5 people is NOT an influx"

[LAZERUSS]

I'm confused, is this about 'usa rules' or old era>current era?

It pretty much blows the THEORY away that this massive increase in world-wide population in the last 30 years has somehow made the current NBA much better than previous era's, doesn't it?

While the rest of the world has contributed players from all over the world to the NBA, very few would be considered truly elite.

Furthermore, we haven't seen a dramatic increase in the level of play in those 30 years, either. The best players of the 70's continued to be the best players into the 80's. Then the best players of the 80's continued to be the best players of the 90's. And the best players of the 90's continued to be the best players of the 00's. Even with the "population explosion" basketball has not seen a period where all of a sudden, a crop of new incoming players just took over the game.

And again, why haven't we seen more Lebron's, Shaq's, MJ's, Magic's, KAJ's, and Wilt's? Shouldn't we have entire teams with seven-foot Magic's running up-and-down the floor by now?

[fpliii]

Parker over Manu, with Parker being in the "great" tier? Is this real life?

Solid list otherwise.
+1

[j3lademaster]

1) Hakeem's still an international talent. Yes, his skills got developed in college, but the argument was that a lot of international talent may be overlooked since there wasn't extensive international scouting in the early days of the NBA.

2) They don't have to be superstars. This is about the overall talent pool not the top whatever percentile of players who can qualify as superstars.

3) Do you think Wilt with modern medicine, growing up in this era etc etc average 50/27 and 48.5 mpg for an entire season? No? That's because the talent pool is bigger. Despite expanding that league with ~100 players into a league with 400+ the bottom tier and mid-tier talents can challenge superstars moreso than the bottom tier guys of the 60's.

I do agree that the superstars of each era are good in any era, but that wasn't the point of a lot of the 60's < now discussions. The argument is that the overall competitiveness of NBA talent has grown(in large part due to globalization of the sport and $$$), not that Dirks and Hakeems grow on trees and international players are dominating all-star balloting.

[LAZERUSS]

Again, a broken down 34 year old McAdoo in his last NBA season, in 1986... 10.1 ppg, 3.6 rpg, and on a .462 FG%.

Then this...


McAdoo played in Milan until 1990. The two following years he played in Forli with averages of 31.7 points and 9.6 rebounds. He put an end to his career in Teamsystem Fabriano in 1992-93 at 42 years old. Over seven seasons in Italy, he played 201 games, scored 5,427 points (27.3 ppg.) and averaged 9.0 boards per game. He won the Italian League twice, the Italian Cup once and one Intercontinental cup – all with Milano.

[Dunaprenti]

LAZERUSS, do you REALLY believe that there is no difference in the talent pool, between now and 60 years ago?
I agree that great players, from previous eras, wouldn't have a problem adjusting.

PS
You base your argument on absurd premise.

[Bodhi]

How about the last FIVE years?

Where are the KD's, Lebron's, and AD's?

Is this a serious question? They're all living in Africa not being developed by basketball coaches

How many great non-black players have there been period?

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS, do you REALLY believe that there is no difference in the talent pool, between now and 60 years ago?
I agree that great players, from previous eras, wouldn't have a problem adjusting.

PS
You base your argument on absurd premise.

No, I don't believe that there is a huge difference in the talent, period. Marginal, perhaps.

Take a look at the rosters of the '67 Hawks, Lakers, Royals, and Knicks. FILLED with talent. All were losing teams. The '67 Warriors...a STACKED team...went 44-37. The majority of those players, alone, and not counting the Celtics and Sixers from that season, would be competitive in TODAY's NBA.

[LAZERUSS]

Is this a serious question? They're all living in Africa not being developed by basketball coaches

How many great non-black players have there been period?

More truly great white U.S. players than all of the greats from the international pools.

Hell, how many "foreign" players have played on the level of Tom Chambers and Kevin McHale for cryingoutloud?

[j3lademaster]

Again, a broken down 34 year old McAdoo in his last NBA season, in 1986... 10.1 ppg, 3.6 rpg, and on a .462 FG%.

Then this...This doesn't tell anyone anything they don't already know: that the NBA is a superior basketball league :confusedshrug:

And international play has risen since the early 90's. We used to see the Dream team blow out every other team like they're jokes. Now we actually have other teams like Spain who can compete with us. Of course the Kiki Vanderweghes and the Drazens would be good in this era as well, but overall international ball has become more impressive than in the past.

[Dunaprenti]

No, I don't believe that there is a huge difference in the talent, period. Marginal, perhaps.

Take a look at the rosters of the '67 Hawks, Lakers, Royals, and Knicks. FILLED with talent. All were losing teams. The '67 Warriors...a STACKED team...went 44-37. The majority of those players, alone, and not counting the Celtics and Sixers from that season, would be competitive in TODAY's NBA.

I wouldn't say huge, but it is significant. That's not a dig to previous eras, it's just math. Now you have to fill 3 times more rosters than before. Yeah, the number of Wilts and Jordans is about the same, but there are A LOT of people in the middle.

Again, I absolutely agree about the last part.

[NuggetsFan]

No, I don't believe that there is a huge difference in the talent, period. Marginal, perhaps.


That's insane. How many international players in the 60's? You act as if great players only matter. That only the Hakeem's and Dirk's make the league better. International players come in today and make the league better and steal what would be an Americans spot way back in the day. They don't need to be an All-Time great just to make the talent pool better.

Not to mention being a "great" player or even All-Star is a pretty unlikely thing already. Isn't as if there is alot of them vs your average player. As the game continues to grow I'm sure we'll see more of them in the next 30 years. We've went from zero to a handful over the years.

[LAZERUSS]

I wouldn't say huge, but it is significant. That's not a dig to previous eras, it's just math. Now you have to fill 3 times more rosters than before. Yeah, the number of Wilts and Jordans is about the same, but there are A LOT of people in the middle.

Again, I absolutely agree about the last part.

Let me ask you this...

watch footage of Willis Reed, and then footage of Zach Randolph. IMO, if you were to blur out their faces, and their uniforms...I honestly don't think you could tell the difference.

So what, you ask?

In Reed's best season, he was a 22-14 .507 FG%, .796 FT% guy. In Randolph's best season, he was a 24-10 .467, .819 guy. And yes, Reed played in a slightly more "inflated" era with regards to rebounds. About the only difference, was Reed was a better defender.

Now, I would tell you this...put THAT Reed into TODAY's NBA, and I have no doubt that his numbers would be almost identical to what they were in '69 (with a slightly lower rpg, of course.) AND, if that is indeed the case...what does that tell you about HIS peers?

[NuggetsFan]

Let me ask you this...

watch footage of Willis Reed, and then footage of Zach Randolph. IMO, if you were to blur out their faces, and their uniforms...I honestly don't think you could tell the difference.

So what, you ask?

In Reed's best season, he was a 22-14 .507 FG%, .796 FT% guy. In Randolph's best season, he was a 24-10 .467, .819 guy. And yes, Reed played in a slightly more "inflated" era with regards to rebounds. About the only difference, was Reed was a better defender.

Now, I would tell you this...put THAT Reed into TODAY's NBA, and I have no doubt that his numbers would be almost identical to what they were in '69 (with a slightly lower rpg, of course.) AND, if that is indeed the case...what does that tell you about HIS peers?

It's not how things work. I have no idea why people have this obsession with players vs other eras. Just compare what guys did relative to the era because the game has changed so much. You might be right. We'll never really know.

The talent pool has become larger tho. That's a fact. More participation in HS programs, internationally the game has expanded. I just don't see how you can think we haven't evolved from the 60's. There's more competition for roster spots in general nowadays.

[LAZERUSS]

It's not how things work. I have no idea why people have this obsession with players vs other eras. Just compare what guys did relative to the era because the game has changed so much. You might be right. We'll never really know.

The talent pool has become larger tho. That's a fact. More participation in HS programs, internationally the game has expanded. I just don't see how you can think we haven't evolved from the 60's. There's more competition for roster spots in general nowadays.

If you have a 100 players who shoot, pass, rebound, and defend equally, and then you add 900 more that do the same, does that bump up the talent level?

[SpanishACB]

isn't the OP supposed to be 50 or something?

Why does he expect change to happen in a portion of his life span? Shouldn't he be used to the pace of life by now?

It's hilarious. Of course the world has done a lot of catching up, just compare draft classes...

USA has done a lot of catching up in soccer too, but there's a difference in that, and expecting an American Messi to show up in the next century. You really have a severe lack of perspective.

So allow me a tip, when you find yourself alone, for long periods of hours, and inmerse yourself in the lonely thought of NBA analysis with you and yourself, take into account that some of those ideas you might think are great for discussion are actually moot points you could figure out yourself if you started getting somewhat involved with real life.

[Dunaprenti]

You are arguing with the wrong guy. I agree that Willis Reed will be as good, now, as he was before. I also think that his peers will be at least competitive.

I disagree about your thoughts on international players. It's like asking you why there are no Mesi or Ronaldo from the US.

[NuggetsFan]

If you have a 100 players who shoot, pass, rebound, and defend equally, and then you add 900 more that do the same, does that bump up the talent level?

Without a doubt. Not everything is about All-Time greats and superstars. It's just as much about who defends and plays with those guys. Somebody like AK47 was a beast in his prime. He made like one All-Star game. Won't sniff All-Time lists. You wouldn't have had guys like that back in the 60's. Even Mozzy who's a pretty average, even below average player. Still a 7'1/250 pound C with decent skill that the game wouldn't have seen without the international talent pool.

Not even accounting for American players. You have more players pursing basketball full time. More competition for roster spots. That competition makes the talent pool better because it's just so much bigger.

What would lead you to find greater talent from top to bottom, from superstars to scrubs who ride the bench? 100 players playing basketball, or 1000? Obviously the latter.

[bdreason]

There are plenty of guys playing in Europe that are NBA caliber. They just aren't interested in taking a pay-cut to go play hoops in a foreign land.

Look at a guy like Mirotic. Obvious NBA talent who had to pay MILLIONS of his own money just to play in the NBA.

[LAZERUSS]

Without a doubt. Not everything is about All-Time greats and superstars. It's just as much about who defends and plays with those guys. Somebody like AK47 was a beast in his prime. He made like one All-Star game. Won't sniff All-Time lists. You wouldn't have had guys like that back in the 60's. Even Mozzy who's a pretty average, even below average player. Still a 7'1/250 pound C with decent skill that the game wouldn't have seen without the international talent pool.

Not even accounting for American players. You have more players pursing basketball full time. More competition for roster spots. That competition makes the talent pool better because it's just so much bigger.

What would lead you to find greater talent from top to bottom, from superstars to scrubs who ride the bench? 100 players playing basketball, or 1000? Obviously the latter.

How do explain Gus Johnson, then? A full 6-6, 230 lbs, and with a vertical the equal of MJ's. Watch footage of him. Soft jump-shot past 15 feet with near perfect form.

Why wasn't he just light years ahead of his peers in the 60's? Tom Burleson was a full 7-2, and was very skilled...never a great NBA center. In fact, in the mid-70's he was near the bottom of the starters. Look up Steve Turner. 7-4 in the late 60's. Never sniffed an NBA roster. Hal Halbrook,...a full 7-3, in the 50's. Was a bust in the 60's.

Hell, where are the TRUE seven-footers of THIS era? Shouldn't the NBA be filled with them. I have news for you... Tyson Chandler...not 7-1, and in fact, he is NOT even 7-0. Greg Oden...NOT a seven-footer. Spencer Hawes...not even 6-11. Andre Drummond...not even 6-10, nor his DeAndre Jordan, nor is Demarcus Cousins. You can go right down the list. Subtract 2" from your average player today, and that is generally his real height.

And how about this... the NBA shot .756 from the FT line in 58-59 (and BTW, .771 in '74)...How about at this exact moment, and some 55 years later... .754. With all of this additional training, and at earlier ages that you have suggested (as if players from the 60's only played basketball part-time)...how come they can't shoot FTs better than those from the late 50's?

Then, explain this to me...how does a 6-8 Kevin Love run away with a rpg title (and in only 36 mpg)? How does a 37 year old 6-2 Steve Nash, and playing in 33 mpg, win an apg title? How does a broken down shell like the 6-11 Andrew Bogut, manage to win a bpg title?

Furthermore, how does a Ricky Rubio make an NBA roster as a fulltime starter, while shooting a career high .381 from the field?

How about the Mavs trading half their roster to get a 6-1 NBA player that is currently shooting .405 from the field, and .333 from the line?

I mentioned DeAndre Jordan and Andre Drummond. Two of the better centers in the current NBA. Neither one can shoot from 3 feet away. How does that happen with all of your supposed "training" and "technology" advancements?

Again, the game is not played much better today, than it was 50 years ago. Marginally, perhaps, but certainly not a dramatic rise.

[HomieWeMajor]

JLuber what did you get your grandkids for Christmas ?
They're tired of getting Wilt's '100' point game on VHS every Christmas,get them something else.

[Dunaprenti]

Heights in NBA are inflated but you have to convince me that it wasn't always like that.
In the first video I saw of Gus Johnson was this quote "He was ahead of his time". Hashem Thabeeet is above 7 feet and he is a bust right now, height has nothing to do with talent.
If you cannot comprehend why the average level of nba players has risen, I'm done arguing.


Again, the game is not played much better today, than it was 50 years ago. Marginally, perhaps, but certainly not a dramatic rise.
The game is completely different.

[NuggetsFan]

How do explain Gus Johnson, then? A full 6-6, 230 lbs, and with a vertical the equal of MJ's. Watch footage of him. Soft jump-shot past 15 feet with near perfect form.

Why wasn't he just light years ahead of his peers in the 60's? Tom Burleson was a full 7-2, and was very skilled...never a great NBA center. In fact, in the mid-70's he was near the bottom of the starters. Look up Steve Turner. 7-4 in the late 60's. Never sniffed an NBA roster. Hal Halbrook,...a full 7-3, in the 50's. Was a bust in the 60's.

It happens. Happens in this era too. McGee, Flight team dunkers, I mean there's guys at the local gym who have the physical tools but can't do anything with it. Gerald Green, James White. List goes on and on and is probably longer than your list so not a great point.


Hell, where are the TRUE seven-footers of THIS era? Shouldn't the NBA be filled with them. I have news for you... Tyson Chandler...not 7-1, and in fact, he is NOT even 7-0. Greg Oden...NOT a seven-footer. Spencer Hawes...not even 6-11. Andre Drummond...not even 6-10, nor his DeAndre Jordan, nor is Demarcus Cousins. You can go right down the list. Subtract 2" from your average player today, and that is generally his real height.

I'm not arguing about pointless shit like this. You know no more than anybody else in terms of how actually tall these guys are. Obviously some reports are fudged. Just like some back in the day could have been. Once again not helping your case considering there's been taller players as time went by. From 1980 until today there's been more 7 footers than in the 60's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_players_in_National_Basketball_Ass ociation_history

One person from the 60's on that list. Height doesn't = talent/skill. Rather a "untrue" 7 footer than those guys who are legit 7 feet+


And how about this... the NBA shot .756 from the FT line in 58-59 (and BTW, .771 in '74)...How about at this exact moment, and some 55 years later... .754. With all of this additional training, and at earlier ages that you have suggested (as if players from the 60's only played basketball part-time)...how come they can't shoot FTs better than those from the late 50's?


FT shooting is pretty basic and hasn't changed much. The average is higher nowadays than in the 60's if you don't cherry pick years. I'd argue that the game has expanded with 3 point shooting, dribbling becoming way more advanced on average so not enough attention is placed on FT shooting. I'd say FT shooting is probably the thing about the game of basketball that has changed the least tho.


Then, explain this to me...how does a 6-8 Kevin Love run away with a rpg title (and in only 36 mpg)? How does a 37 year old 6-2 Steve Nash, and playing in 33 mpg, win an apg title? How does a broken down shell like the 6-11 Andrew Bogut, manage to win a bpg title?


Because Kevin Love has great positioning and goes after rebounds? Rodman was 6'7. Height doesn't decide everything. Not to mention Love played on a weak team and IMO was inflating those numbers a bit. Steve Nash one is easy, he's one of the best floor generals of all-time. He never relied purely on his athletic ability therefore at 33 it didn't affect how he saw the court. Bogut? Another international player. One that wouldn't exist in the 60's. By being a good player? Without the injuries Andrew Bogut is a legit player.


Furthermore, how does a Ricky Rubio make an NBA roster as a fulltime starter, while shooting a career high .381 from the field?


Because he's a good defender, and see's the court as well as anybody?


How about the Mavs trading half their roster to get a 6-1 NBA player that is currently shooting .405 from the field, and .333 from the line?


Half there roster? Your agenda is incredibly obviously. Rondo is a triple double machine. He's not a scorer, and isn't a good shooter. Those aren't the things that make him good.


I mentioned DeAndre Jordan and Andre Drummond. Two of the better centers in the current NBA. Neither one can shoot from 3 feet away. How does that happen with all of your supposed "training" and "technology" advancements?


Game has changed. Big men aren't the focal point of offense's anymore. Jordan/Drummond are incredibly raw too. Somebody like Mozgov who's not as good as either of them has more polished moves and can score from 3 feet away, but because how the game is played doesn't have as much impact.


Again, the game is not played much better today, than it was 50 years ago. Marginally, perhaps, but certainly not a dramatic rise.

Game is beyond different today. Which is why it's stupid to compare the two. What isn't stupid and what's not arguable is that the game of basketball has expanded. It's become bigger. More development. Far bigger talent pool than there was in say the 60's. More information. Even how we view it with statistics and watching league pass vs a league that doesn't officially record blocks and you had to listen to games on the radio if that even at times.

[iamgine]

It pretty much blows the THEORY away that this massive increase in world-wide population in the last 30 years has somehow made the current NBA much better than previous era's, doesn't it?

While the rest of the world has contributed players from all over the world to the NBA, very few would be considered truly elite.

False.

The theory is NOT only that. The massive increase in salary and NBA becoming a lot more legit has attracted a lot more talent, both from USA and overseas. Since the talent level from the US also increase massively, especially from the black race, foreign talent can't get in that easily. Which answers the question. The overall talent pool has increased so much compared to the 60s. Which is why we have to take HOFs from the 60s pretty lightly.

[FatComputerNerd]

You seem to have forgotten about Spanoulis, the greatest non-American basketball player of all time.

[deja vu]

The rest of the world is too busy with football/soccer to care much about basketball.

It's just like in soccer we haven't seen any elite American player despite the fact that people have been saying that US soccer is growing by leaps and bounds. They have been saying that since the 90s.

So it's not surprising at all.

[yarrak]

Give Non-USA players the athletic ability black people have, you'll see lots of great Non-USA players. It's not like Americans are more talented than the rest of the world.

For instance take away their incredible athleticism from Westbrook and Rose. How good would they be? U.S. is just lucky to have black people. Without them, U.S. wouldn't dominate the basketball world the way they do now.

You're talking about how Hakeem developed once he came to Houston. Well yeah, no shit. The highest level in basketball is the NBA. Of course, they will have the best coaches, trainers, medical staff... etc but then again what makes NBA the highest level in basketball is black players. Their incredible athleticism separate them from the rest of the world..

Soccer is the most popular sport in the rest of the world. That's another reason. If half those people started playing basketball instead of soccer when they were little,you'd have a lot more great Non-USA players.

[russwest0]

How's spending Christmas alone?

F*ck you.

[jamal99]

Give Non-USA players the athletic ability black people have, you'll see lots of great Non-USA players. It's not like Americans are more talented than the rest of the world.

For instance take away their incredible athleticism from Westbrook and Rose. How good would they be? U.S. is just lucky to have black people. Without them, U.S. wouldn't dominate the basketball world the way they do now.

You're talking about how Hakeem developed once he came to Houston. Well yeah, no shit. The highest level in basketball is the NBA. Of course, they will have the best coaches, trainers, medical staff... etc but then again what makes NBA the highest level in basketball is black players. Their incredible athleticism separate them from the rest of the world..

Soccer is the most popular sport in the rest of the world. That's another reason. If half those people started playing basketball instead of soccer when they were little,you'd have a lot more great Non-USA players.
I think most of this is true.

Try to assemble Team USA without black players, it's basically shit. Lithuania (3 million), Slovenia (2 million) and Montenegro (****ing 600k) would beat it.

Thanks to import of slaves they're now a force in sports...

[Dr.J4ever]

If you have a 100 players who shoot, pass, rebound, and defend equally, and then you add 900 more that do the same, does that bump up the talent level?

Just to answer your question straight up, no it doesn't bump up the talent level, but now you can create more teams and maybe even more leagues eventually.

The argument that today's league is watered down has been used by some to prop up 60s basketball. I would agree that the 90s were watered down, right after expansion, and before the advent of international players, but today, no, not at all.

Yes, there have not been too many truly great internationals, but more internationals are playing today in the NBA than ever. So if you take out those internationals from rosters today, then you would have to replace them with inferior American players, presumably.

Also as I said, it's not just the international player, but also the brand of basketball they have brought. I submit the NBA has changed significantly due to outside influences. If you kept up with international basketball, and Team USA's development, you would have seen this.

[JtotheIzzo]

I posted this question in another topic, but it is worth revisiting...

For those who claim that the game of basketball has grown exponentially since the 60's, 70's, and 80's...due to the popularity of the game in the rest of the world...

I ask you...where are all of the great players from Europe, China, India, and the African and South American continents?

Aside from Dirk, Parker, Peja, Manu, Vlade, the Gasols, a prime Yao, and certainly a prime Sabonis, as well as a few other players that I am forgetting at the moment...where are of the other greats from the rest of the world?


Aside from the 9 hall of famers and 'a few others' you already mentioned (thus killing your point, but that is OK, it is well documented on these pages you ARE functionally retarded)...

lets add:

Al Horford
Nash
Duncan
Olajuwon
Ewing
Seikaly
Ilgauskas
Divac
Ro Blackman
Kukoc
Schrempf
Petrovic
Mutumbo


So compare this list with all the great white Americans this century and who you got.

Its a black American game, thought you knew? Oh wait...its you, nevermind

[houston]

Give Non-USA players the athletic ability black people have, you'll see lots of great Non-USA players. It's not like Americans are more talented than the rest of the world.

For instance take away their incredible athleticism from Westbrook and Rose. How good would they be? U.S. is just lucky to have black people. Without them, U.S. wouldn't dominate the basketball world the way they do now.

You're talking about how Hakeem developed once he came to Houston. Well yeah, no shit. The highest level in basketball is the NBA. Of course, they will have the best coaches, trainers, medical staff... etc but then again what makes NBA the highest level in basketball is black players. Their incredible athleticism separate them from the rest of the world..

Soccer is the most popular sport in the rest of the world. That's another reason. If half those people started playing basketball instead of soccer when they were little,you'd have a lot more great Non-USA players.



makes sense indeed

[-23-]

No, I don't believe that there is a huge difference in the talent, period. Marginal, perhaps.

Take a look at the rosters of the '67 Hawks, Lakers, Royals, and Knicks. FILLED with talent. All were losing teams. The '67 Warriors...a STACKED team...went 44-37. The majority of those players, alone, and not counting the Celtics and Sixers from that season, would be competitive in TODAY's NBA.

What was the league wide FG% in the 60's? .40% LOL. Go fk yourself.

[FKAri]

Don't think the rest of the world cares enough.

[dunksby]

Arguing with jlau is useless, he is tunnel visioned on purpose and will never yield to logic.

[AirFederer]

Wilt

[ZenMaster]

Just the FACT that with all of this "world-wide expansion" in the last 30 years, it's overall impact has not been dramatic. Where are the MJ's, the Shaq's, the Magic's?

You could make a case that Dirk is close to "Bird-level", but you could also argue that so was Barry.

With a world population that has far exceeded the U.S in the last 30 years, shouldn't there be a long list of truly GREAT "non-U.S." players?

You ask about world wide expansion and then ask for a minimal selection of players in a particular tier. Then you actually mention a player being on siad level, which you asked for, but then for some reason you talk him down because another player could be argued the same way.

Sorry but this is pure nonsense and ramblings.

The NBA is literally filled with Euros and other internationals, 3 of them where even starters on last years NBA champions.


Soccer is the most popular sport in the rest of the world. That's another reason. If half those people started playing basketball instead of soccer when they were little,you'd have a lot more great Non-USA players.

It's not that big a sport, but handball has taken a lot of 6-6+ talent all over Europe as well. Lots of potential basketball talent is there whenever you see one of these games at top level.

[LAZERUSS]

Aside from the 9 hall of famers and 'a few others' you already mentioned (thus killing your point, but that is OK, it is well documented on these pages you ARE functionally retarded)...

lets add:

Al Horford
Nash
Duncan
Olajuwon
Ewing
Seikaly
Ilgauskas
Divac
Ro Blackman
Kukoc
Schrempf
Petrovic
Mutumbo


So compare this list with all the great white Americans this century and who you got.

Its a black American game, thought you knew? Oh wait...its you, nevermind


So, in other words then, you are AGREEING with me. That the vast majority of truly great NBA players in the last 30 years, have been AMERICAN players.


The rest of your list...

Nash. Go back and actually read thru the threads. Agreed with this.
Duncan. I mentioned him in along time ago, and yes.Great.
Hakeem. I already agreed with this. Yes. Again, learned the game in the U.S (in fact he wasn't even on any college's radar until Houston U. took a shot.)
Ewing. Technically, but grew up early here in the US. Great though.
Divac. His name is VLADE. Even a blind man would have spotted that in my above post.

And even some of the one's that I did mention are questionable, in terms of greatness. The Gasol's, Vlade, Peja, and Manu...all good, and perhaps even borderline great.


The rest of your list...

Mutombo? Finished in the MVP balloting ONE time, and it was 13th. Good, yes, great, NO. Maybe even Borderline great.
Kukoc? Solid BENCH player. Great? You're laughable.
Seikaly? :roll: Did manage to win Most Improved Player one year, and also played in 14 playoff games in his entire career.
Ilgauskas? A longer career than Tom Burleson, but at the same level.
Blackmon. I see him mentioned many times on GOAT lists. :facepalm
Schrempf? Good career. Even came in 16th one time in the MVP balloting.
Petrovic? I also covered him earlier in the topic. At age 28, averaged 22 ppg and was THIRD-TEAM all-NBA.
Horford? 8 years in the NBA... 14 ppg and 9 rpg. :roll:

Your definition of GREAT is MUCH different than mine.

As for your definition of white Americans...

aside from Duncan, Nash, Hakeem and Ewing (and again, Hakeem wasn't even recruited, and Ewing grew up here in the US)...

I would take Tom Chambers and Kevin McHale over everyone else on your list...much less players like Bird, West, Pettit, Walton, Havlicek, Stockton, Barry, Maravich, and many others.


Of course, my main point was that in the last 30 years, the rest of the entire world has contributed no more than a microscopic number of truly GREAT NBA players. You posted NOTHING that would refute that.

[Dragic4Life]

Top 3 PG Goran Dragic.

[LAZERUSS]

What was the league wide FG% in the 60's? .40% LOL. Go fk yourself.

Why was that?

Why did Chamberlain have a season of .461 in the 60's? Then one of .683 in the 60's, and then one of .727 in the 70's. What caused that?

Why did Kareem have a season of .518 in the 60's (and BTW, three more of .539, .529, and even .513 in the 70's...and yet had MUCH higher FG%'s at way past him prime in the 80's?)

West had a season of .419. In his 61-62 season he shot .445. Now, watch the footage that exists on the '62 ASG. His jump shot is identical to what it would be in '68, when he shot .514. Go ahead and explain that.

Havlicek played 16 seasons in the NBA...eight in the decade of the 60's, and eight in the decade of the 70's. He shot better every season in the 70's, than he did in the 60's. Why?

Baylor had a season of .401 in the early 60's, and .486 at the end of teh decade. How come?

How about Darrall Imhoff? Seasons of .394, .386, and even .314 in the early 60's...and by the end of the decade... .540. Explain that one.

Johnny Green? Had seasons of .430 and .436 in the early 60's. By the early 70's... leading the league at .559 and .587.

Player-for-player shot better, to MUCH better in the late 60's, than they did in the early 60's. Same thing with players whose career spanned the 60's and 70's. Then go from the 70's to the 80's, and it EXPLODED. Gilmore shot light-years better in the 80's than he did in his prime in the 70's. Dantley too.

How come? Did all of those guys suddenly learn how to shoot later in their careers? Or was there something else at play?

[fandarko]

Great:

Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tony Parker
Drazen Petrovic
Oscar Schmidt

Very Good/Good:

Dikembe Mutombo
Manu Ginobili
Arvydas Sabonis
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Sarunas Marciulionis
Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Toni Kukoc
Peja Stojakovic
Vlade Divac

U.S. players born outside:

Patrick Ewing
Dominique Wilkins
Tim Duncan

While I value Drazen Petrovic, I would not put him at the same level with Dirk and Olajuwon when it comes to his NBA career. He is on their level when you factor in his European achievements, yes, but in the NBA he had one solid year and one All NBA third team season, before he was cut short by the car accident.

Drazen was overall a better player than Peja, but in the NBA, Peja was a double all star playing for a better team than Drazen and 4x time +20 ppg scorer, without ever being the first option on his team.

The same with Kukoc and Drazen - just take a look at Kukoc's stats and see the guy would have been a perrenial all star today and he played third fiddle to MJ and Pippen. I admire Drazen, but I think he is mildly overrated when it comes to his NBA career.

At the same time, had he initially landed in a team willing to give him 30 minutes per game instead to the Blazers to ride the pine behind Drexler and Porter, he would have been a perrenial all star.

[fandarko]

Great:

Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tony Parker
Drazen Petrovic
Oscar Schmidt

Very Good/Good:

Dikembe Mutombo
Manu Ginobili
Arvydas Sabonis
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Sarunas Marciulionis
Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Toni Kukoc
Peja Stojakovic
Vlade Divac

U.S. players born outside:

Patrick Ewing
Dominique Wilkins
Tim Duncan

While I value Drazen Petrovic, I would not put him at the same level with Dirk and Olajuwon when it comes to his NBA career. He is on their level when you factor in his European achievements, yes, but in the NBA he had one solid year and one All NBA third team season, before he was cut short by the car accident.

Drazen was overall a better player than Peja, but in the NBA, Peja was a double all star playing for a better team than Drazen and 4x time +20 ppg scorer, without ever being the first option on his team.

The same with Kukoc and Drazen - just take a look at Kukoc's stats and see the guy would have been a perrenial all star today and he played third fiddle to MJ and Pippen. I admire Drazen, but I think he is mildly overrated when it comes to his NBA career.

At the same time, had he initially landed in a team willing to give him 30 minutes per game instead to the Blazers to ride the pine behind Drexler and Porter, he would have been a perrenial all star.

[StephHamann]

Still a virgin @ 35. I feel for you bro

[DrunkenDave]

Give Non-USA players the athletic ability black people have, you'll see lots of great Non-USA players. It's not like Americans are more talented than the rest of the world.

For instance take away their incredible athleticism from Westbrook and Rose. How good would they be? U.S. is just lucky to have black people. Without them, U.S. wouldn't dominate the football world the way they do now.

You're talking about how Hakeem developed once he came to Barcelona. Well yeah, no shit. The highest level in basketball is the NBA. Of course, they will have the best coaches, trainers, medical staff... etc but then again what makes NBA the highest level in basketball is black players. Their incredible athleticism separate them from the rest of the world..

Soccer is the most popular sport in the rest of the world. That's another reason. If half those people started playing basketball instead of soccer when they were little,you'd have a lot more great Non-USA players.

Give black US players the athletic ability white people have, you'll see lots of great US players. It's not like Europeans are more talented than the rest of the world.

For instance take away their incredible athleticism from Ribery and Ronaldo. How good would they be? Europe is just lucky to have white people. Without them, Europe wouldn't dominate the basketball world the way they do now.

You're talking about how Messi developed once he came to Houston. Well yeah, no shit. The highest level in football is the Champions League. Of course, they will have the best coaches, trainers, medical staff... etc but then again what makes Champions League the highest level in football is white players. Their incredible athleticism separate them from the rest of the world..

Basketball is the most popular sport in the US. That's another reason. If half those people started playing football instead of Basketball when they were little,you'd have a lot more great US players.

[LAZERUSS]

Bottom line...

In the last 30+ years the U.S. has had 5% of the world population, and 90% of the truly great NBA players.

I am not disputing that there are many international players who have played in the NBA. But the reality is, you could replace the majority of them with U.S. players, and the game would suffer little.

Again, the THEORY that players of the 60's, 70's, and even into the 80's, did not face much, if any, international players, and therefore their numbers should somehow be diminished because of it...is ridiculous. And I would carry that argument even further. Had there been "foreign" players playing in the NBA in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, their overall contributions in those eras would have been almost non-existent.

One more time...with 95% of the world's population being from outside of the U.S., shouldn't we be seeing more Lebron's, KD's, AD's, Kobe's, Shaq's, D-Rob's, MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, McAdoo's, KAJ's, Dr. J's, Gilmore's, Barry's, Maravich's, West's, Oscar's, and Wilt's?

[SpanishACB]

Bottom line...

In the last 30+ years the U.S. has had 5% of the world population, and 90% of the truly great NBA players.

I am not disputing that there are many international players who have played in the NBA. But the reality is, you could replace the majority of them with U.S. players, and the game would suffer little.

Again, the THEORY that players of the 60's, 70's, and even into the 80's, did not face much, if any, international players, and therefore their numbers should somehow be diminished because of it...is ridiculous. And I would carry that argument even further. Had there been "foreign" players playing in the NBA in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, their overall contributions in those eras would have been almost non-existent.

One more time...with 95% of the world's population being from outside of the U.S., shouldn't we be seeing more Lebron's, KD's, AD's, Kobe's, Shaq's, D-Rob's, MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, McAdoo's, KAJ's, Dr. J's, Gilmore's, Barry's, Maravich's, West's, Oscar's, and Wilt's?

And yet in the last decade:

NBA champs:

Pistons - america!
Spurs - Big 3 foreigners
Heat - amerrrrica!
Spurs - B3F
Celtics - all american team
Lakers - Gasol destroys Dwight
Lakers - Gasol, possible argument for FVMP
Dallas - Carried by a german
Heat - full usa
Heat - u.s.a!
Spurs - ok

I'd say the influence of foreign players in the NBA is pretty notable regardless of stats so there's a chance you won't exactly grasp what I'm talking about.

[Dresta]

And yet in the last decade:

NBA champs:

Pistons - america!
Spurs - Big 3 foreigners
Heat - amerrrrica!
Spurs - B3F
Celtics - all american team
Lakers - Gasol destroys Dwight
Lakers - Gasol, possible argument for FVMP
Dallas - Carried by a german
Heat - full usa
Heat - u.s.a!
Spurs - ok

I'd say the influence of foreign players in the NBA is pretty notable regardless of stats so there's a chance you won't exactly grasp what I'm talking about.
:roll: - all those no-impact furreners

[Maga_1]

This is probably the most ignorant discussion that i've ever read in the ISH.
I know that OP is not judging the "non-USA" players, he is using them as an agenda to elevate players from older eras.

You are asking us where's the next MJ, Magic, LeBron, Durant, etc?
Where are they in the US too? I don't see them.

It's just absurd that you can't see that non-USA players have been contribuiting way way much in the last 20 years to the NBA that ever before.

You just want to know all time greats? Well, that's kind normal. Basketball is an american game, that they have been dominating forever.
It's the same to ask (like i've read before) where is the next Zidane? Ronaldo? Messi? Etc etc. Because it's a sport that it's not dominated by the US.

You can't see the impact on the NBA (and i'm not even talk about future HOF like Gasol, Dirk, Ginobili, Nash, etc) by guys like..

Dragic? Marc Gasol? Parker? Noah?
Who could be All Stars?

Or great and much needed role players to a team like..
Ibaka? Batum? Rubio? Teletovic? Gortat? Vucevic? Valanciunas? Varejao?

Or with great future like..
Giannis? Papanikolaou? Bogdanovic? Schroeder? Embiid? Nurkic? Exum? Mirotic?

If you can't see that you're just delusional, and you need to stop watching NBA right now and go to your cave and re watch all the old games and live in nostalgia!

[Maga_1]

One more time...with 95% of the world's population being from outside of the U.S., shouldn't we be seeing more Lebron's, KD's, AD's, Kobe's, Shaq's, D-Rob's, MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, McAdoo's, KAJ's, Dr. J's, Gilmore's, Barry's, Maravich's, West's, Oscar's, and Wilt's?

Where are the next LeBron, Shaq's, etc in the US too?
Can't see them!

[Asukal]

Grandpa jlauber off his meds again. :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

And yet in the last decade:

NBA champs:

Pistons - america!
Spurs - Big 3 foreigners
Heat - amerrrrica!
Spurs - B3F
Celtics - all american team
Lakers - Gasol destroys Dwight
Lakers - Gasol, possible argument for FVMP
Dallas - Carried by a german
Heat - full usa
Heat - u.s.a!
Spurs - ok

I'd say the influence of foreign players in the NBA is pretty notable regardless of stats so there's a chance you won't exactly grasp what I'm talking about.

How many playoff wins does Pau have without Kobe?

I already conceded Dirk, Manu, and Parker (and again, Duncan's game was developed in the U.S.)

But, how many Finals has Dirk been in in his career?

And who was the Finals MVP for the Spurs last year?

And give me a list of the other "Euros" who have carried their teams in the last 30+ years. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

[LAZERUSS]

Where are the next LeBron, Shaq's, etc in the US too?
Can't see them!

I DO see KD's, and AD's. Give me the Euros who can match them now.

BTW, your point is well taken. Players like Lebron, and Shaq are once-in-a-decade players. No amount of the world's population makes any difference in that regard.

[iamgine]

Again, the THEORY that players of the 60's, 70's, and even into the 80's, did not face much, if any, international players, and therefore their numbers should somehow be diminished because of it...is ridiculous.
Their numbers should be taken lightly because the overall talent pool has increased so much compared to the 60s.

[La Frescobaldi]

I expect you'd have to factor in the fact that only since the generation of the '80s have the greatest non-American regions been able to move about freely... I mean SouthEastern Europe.... and by freely, I mean after the fall of the Communistis.

To me there's been a flood since the Balkan war time frame of the 90s. Have they all been from there no.
But above any other place on earth, except perhaps Spain, we have seen the old Yugoslavs or Macedonia Montenegro etc. rise to an astounding prominence, per capita, of NBA level talent.
Much of that is due of course, to the fact that it brings us the tallest people in the world; but it's also their fiercely combative nature and innate high skills with the hands and legs, great natural strength and native intellect for physical action.

I believe we will see also increasing numbers of Russians for similar reasons.

Talent, though, which is innate, is a separate thing from skills, which are learned.
Thus, there are vast populations that may have the raw material but no ability, for a variety of reasons, to develop skills. War is not a good time to polish your footwork, for one example; lack of enough money to build a court is another.

edit ~ has the level of talent in the NBA itself improved over decades? No.
Skills have though, exponentially.

[SpanishACB]

How many playoff wins does Pau have without Kobe?


this is completely arbitrary, and stupid. Look at Gasol now, was Kobe also holding him back last year?

How old are you? Ever been in a working enviroment? Where's your perspective senile old man? You do not grasp the fact that minor things like changing city can have big impact on players never mind going to a different coach, with different teammates, being a year older, getting a new girlfriend, listening to good music, do you even begin to realize how many things can affect a player's performance?

You're a conspiracy theorist, you know, the youtube kind, the ones that manufactures thesis by finding arbitrary coincidences and selling them as evidence.
It's food for the dumb.

You cannot what if when it suits you. You judge by what's done, not by what could be done. If you continue that path you'll only find contradictions. What if Duncan was drafted elsewhere? What if Gasol didn't go to Lakers? Does this directly affect Kobe's worth as a player? his legacy?

Again, it's food for the dumb. Fact remains, Gasol, the foreigner, was 1b in those two rings. And most of his game is due to him being coached in Europe, his fundamentals, with all the things he learned in the NBA, made him who he is, and so we have a player, with a very foreigner style of play, soft, who has reached the NBA top. And he wasn't the first, nor will he be the last.

So when will the next american Gasol win back to back titles? (food for the dumb)

[La Frescobaldi]

this is completely arbitrary, and stupid. Look at Gasol now, was Kobe also holding him back last year?

How old are you? Ever been in a working enviroment? Where's your perspective senile old man? You do not grasp the fact that minor things like changing city can have big impact on players never mind going to a different coach, with different teammates, being a year older, getting a new girlfriend, listening to good music, do you even begin to realize how many things can affect a player's performance?

You're a conspiracy theorist, you know, the youtube kind, the ones that manufactures thesis by finding arbitrary coincidences and selling them as evidence.
It's food for the dumb.

You cannot what if when it suits you. You judge by what's done, not by what could be done. If you continue that path you'll only find contradictions. What if Duncan was drafted elsewhere? What if Gasol didn't go to Lakers? Does this directly affect Kobe's worth as a player? his legacy?

Again, it's food for the dumb. Fact remains, Gasol, the foreigner, was 1b in those two rings. And most of his game is due to him being coached in Europe, his fundamentals, with all the things he learned in the NBA, made him who he is, and so we have a player, with a very foreigner style of play, soft, who has reached the NBA top. And he wasn't the first, nor will he be the last.

So when will the next american Gasol win back to back titles? (food for the dumb)
His brother would already be counted among the all-time greats if he had been in Big 4 Boston or Big 3 Miami, or in Dallas.

[Dr.J4ever]

@La Frescobaldi...Talent level hasn't improved in the NBA over the decades?
Really?

You mean, overall, players aren't jumping higher or running faster than they used to? I still remember a time during the 80s(pre Jordan/pre Nique) when it was just Doc and maybe a few other players doing high wire acts. I remember M. Johnson of the Bucks, and who else? Sydney Moncrief maybe? D. Thompson in the 70s..I can't remember anyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But today, there are multiple players on each team who can sky. Not to say they are as good as the doc, but talent level is much more dispersed among more players today than ever.

[julizaver]

The period between middle '80s and the late '90s is considered the Golden Era of basketball - I think there is consensus here about it. A combination of a lot of things. TV coverage, globalization, Showtime, MJ, Bird, Magic and so on ...
When Dream team first appears in Barcelona (1992) there was huge gap between US and other world. But to be objective:

1) Dream Team is the greatest team ever assembled, and unfortunately the other two best teams at the time Yugoslavia and USSR broke up. Although most of their players were there playing for their respective countries and occupied the 2, 3 and 4t place (Croatia, Lithuania and Commonwealth of Independent States - the USSR successor) the Croatian team (Petrovic, Kukoc and Radja) and Lithuanian team (with Sabonis and Marčiulionis) were no match for the Americans. Both teams missed the bench depth and other former teammates from previous years when playing under the Yugoslavia and USSR rosters.
Don't get me wrong - Dream team would beat them anyway. But just I thing that the games against Yugoslavia and USSR would be a little more contested then the games vs Croatia and Lithuania.

2) With the years after that and especially after 1996 the US were not presented by their best players and it was qite visible in the early '00s, while the other teams grew stronger and stronger with a lot of NBA players. But had the US send their best players they would have won everything. Just imagine if Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Dunkan, Carter, Allen, Iverson, Kidd, Weber, McGrady, Pierce were on that 2002 team for example.

What I want to say is that NBA is still the best league by far, although the gap is not quite as huge as it was in 1992. The reasons are two - the drain of talent in US and that a lot of international players came in NBA and gain experience playing at highest level.

Had Drazen Petrovic played in today's NBA he would be an All-Star instantly. When he came in late '80s the league was far more conservative than it is now and he happens to play in one of the best teams with prime Drexler at SG.

[La Frescobaldi]

@La Frescobaldi...Talent level hasn't improved in the NBA over the decades?
Really?

You mean, overall, players aren't jumping higher or running faster than they used too? I still remember a time during the 80s(pre Jordan/pre Nique) when it was just Doc and maybe a few other players doing high wire acts. I remember M. Johnson of the Bucks, and who else? Sydney Moncrief maybe? D. Thompson in the 70s..I can't remember anyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But today, there are multiple players on each team who can sky. Not to say they are as good as the doc, but talent level is much more dispersed among more players today than ever.

Correct. By the late '60s you had about the same talent levels - not skills, but talent - as we've seen ever since.
We don't remember em today, that's all, because the game was played as a team for the most part, instead of individually like today's ballhoggery a la Carmelo/Bryant/Brandon Knight - and teams play horizontally, not vertically.

There were speedsters & high flyers all through the eras, from Lou Hudson or Connie Hawkins to Tom Chambers or Wilkins. Calvin Murphy wasn't a high flyer but he was incredibly fast. Nobody remembers young Kiki because he wrecked his back early on but the dude could really move, same with early days Jamaal. But they were looking to win games and rings in those days, not make the highlight reels and wear out their bodies by the time they got to the playoffs.

I blame Jordan for a lot of that; so today you see a lot of stuff that looks great, but is positively bad on the player's knees & body - see Rose as a classic example of how not to play basketball - and on their team's chances.

Players tend to forget that the NBA is not only a test of talent and skill but also of long-suffering stamina in the face of a brutal, grueling season. How many high flyer acts to you remember winning championships?

It's a horizontal game, for the most part, with a 20 or 24 inch vertical being the most you see on display.

[GimmeThat]

all just a matter if you want to look at it as the amount of events of gold that were won.

or the amount of people that took home a gold.


athletes

[ArbitraryWater]

How's spending Christmas alone?

fu*k off shit stain.


JLuber what did you get your grandkids for Christmas ?
They're tired of getting Wilt's '100' point game on VHS every Christmas,get them something else.


now this is funny :roll:

[Rooster]

I think most of this is true.

Try to assemble Team USA without black players, it's basically shit. Lithuania (3 million), Slovenia (2 million) and Montenegro (****ing 600k) would beat it.

Thanks to import of slaves they're now a force in sports...

Are you saying this Team USA without black is shit:no:

Mambinos reppin blue red and white

PG: Kirk Hinrich, Ridnour, Blake
SG: Hayward , Reddick, Budinger
SF: Parsons, Korver, Miller
PF: Love, Lee, Ryan Anderson
C: Plumlee, Hawes, Chris Andersen

[Optimus Prime]

There's a reason that NBA players go overseas when they wash out of the NBA, and why former NBA players who are stuck overseas jump at the opportunity to play in the Association, even if it means a pay cut.

It'd be a safe bet to say that most NCAA teams could easily beat most, if not all, of the overseas "professional" teams.

:kobe:

[Rooster]

this is completely arbitrary, and stupid. Look at Gasol now, was Kobe also holding him back last year?

How old are you? Ever been in a working enviroment? Where's your perspective senile old man? You do not grasp the fact that minor things like changing city can have big impact on players never mind going to a different coach, with different teammates, being a year older, getting a new girlfriend, listening to good music, do you even begin to realize how many things can affect a player's performance?

You're a conspiracy theorist, you know, the youtube kind, the ones that manufactures thesis by finding arbitrary coincidences and selling them as evidence.
It's food for the dumb.

You cannot what if when it suits you. You judge by what's done, not by what could be done. If you continue that path you'll only find contradictions. What if Duncan was drafted elsewhere? What if Gasol didn't go to Lakers? Does this directly affect Kobe's worth as a player? his legacy?

Again, it's food for the dumb. Fact remains, Gasol, the foreigner, was 1b in those two rings. And most of his game is due to him being coached in Europe, his fundamentals, with all the things he learned in the NBA, made him who he is, and so we have a player, with a very foreigner style of play, soft, who has reached the NBA top. And he wasn't the first, nor will he be the last.

So when will the next american Gasol win back to back titles? (food for the dumb)

Gasol 1b on the rings:facepalm :facepalm
You're reaching not preaching.

[Rooster]

There's a reason that NBA players go overseas when they wash out of the NBA, and why former NBA players who are stuck overseas jump at the opportunity to play in the Association, even if it means a pay cut.

It'd be a safe bet to say that most NCAA teams could easily beat most, if not all, of the overseas "professional" teams.

:kobe:

Kentucky did that this summer.

[LAZERUSS]

Would Pete Maravich, a player who averaged 44 ppg in his college career in the 60's, be a great scorer in today's NBA, or just another Jimmer?

Hmmm... take a look at this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


That 6-5 Maravich ran away with the scoring title in the 76-77 season. He did so in a league that had merged with the talent that was left from the ABA, and in a league that was every bit as "Black" as it is today. Furthermore, he did so in a league with a prime KAJ, a still formidable McAdoo, a near-prime Barry, a prime Dr. J, and and up-and-coming players like Dantley, Gervin, and Moses. Hell, he even hung a 68 point game on the Knicks and Walt Frazier. And keep in mind that a washed up McAdoo was one of, if not the, best players in Europe, and even into his 40's.

Just two years before Maravich's scoring title, Bob McAdoo played 43 mpg, and averaged 34.5 ppg in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg (just last year the NBA averaged 101 ppg.)

In the 80s, Gervin would put up seasons like Pistol's '77. In the late 80's and 90's...MJ was hanging 30+ ppg seasons. And as recently as '06 Kobe was scoring 35 ppg in an NBA that averaged 97 ppg.

And last season, Durant averaged 32 ppg, in a league that averaged 101 ppg.

I see the likes of Ricky Rubio starting in THIS era, and with absolutely ZERO shooting ability (he is, without a doubt, the WORST shooter in NBA history.). And I see teams trading half their roster to get a Rondo who is shooting .405 from the field, and .333 from the line.

Am I supposed to believe that this "globalization" of the NBA would make Maravich a Jimmer?

How about a Kareem, who played in the NBA in the 60's, and who, at ages 38-39, was routinely hanging 40+ point games on Hakeem. My god, a 40 year old KAJ, facing a Hakeem without Sampson, STILL easily outplayed a 25 year old Olajuwon. In their four H2H's, he outscored Hakeem, and outshot him by a .563 to .403 margin.

Yet, a PEAK Kareem, in some 40 H2H's with a fulltime Thurmond...HIGH game of 34, and only five of 30+. Oh, and while an old KAJ shot .607 against Hakeem in their 23 career H2H's, a PEAK Kareem shot .447 against an aging Thurmond in their 40 H2H's.

Shaq's career high against an aging Hakeem... 37 points.

So, this "globalization" had no bearing on an old Kareem's carpet-bombing of Hakeem.


I have read some who have claimed that the '14 Spurs played "Euro" ball to win their title. Sorry,but you can go back to the 60's Celtics, and perhaps an even better example, the 70's Knicks to see a TEAM concept of scoring and defense like the Spurs played last year.

No one is disputing that the rest of the world has had, and has, quality NBA players. But in the last 30+ years, their overall impact has not somehow diminished the play by the truly GREAT U.S. players. Nor would it have had any effect on the GREAT players before the 80's, either.

Will the rest of the world slowly catch up to the U.S.? I think they will. But the greats of yesteryear would still be as great today, and likely well into the future. How can I say that?

Again, where are the other Lebron's, KD's, Kobe's, Shaq's, MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, Moses', Walton's, Dr. J's, McAdoo's, Oscar's, West's, KAJ's, Maravich's, and Wilt's of this era? Other than the orginals, there haven't been ANY.

[GimmeThat]

There's a reason that NBA players go overseas when they wash out of the NBA, and why former NBA players who are stuck overseas jump at the opportunity to play in the Association, even if it means a pay cut.

It'd be a safe bet to say that most NCAA teams could easily beat most, if not all, of the overseas "professional" teams.

:kobe:


devotion is devotion

[Sakkreth]

Bottom line...

In the last 30+ years the U.S. has had 5% of the world population, and 90% of the truly great NBA players.

I am not disputing that there are many international players who have played in the NBA. But the reality is, you could replace the majority of them with U.S. players, and the game would suffer little.

Again, the THEORY that players of the 60's, 70's, and even into the 80's, did not face much, if any, international players, and therefore their numbers should somehow be diminished because of it...is ridiculous. And I would carry that argument even further. Had there been "foreign" players playing in the NBA in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, their overall contributions in those eras would have been almost non-existent.

One more time...with 95% of the world's population being from outside of the U.S., shouldn't we be seeing more Lebron's, KD's, AD's, Kobe's, Shaq's, D-Rob's, MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, McAdoo's, KAJ's, Dr. J's, Gilmore's, Barry's, Maravich's, West's, Oscar's, and Wilt's?

If you go by population argument for amount of players produced i'll gladly take it. Lithuania best basketball nation in the world :bowdown:

[Rooster]

If you go by population argument for amount of players produced i'll gladly take it. Lithuania best basketball nation in the world :bowdown:

:no: Baltimore has produced better players than that nation

[LAZERUSS]

If you go by population argument for amount of players produced i'll gladly take it. Lithuania best basketball nation in the world :bowdown:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Audio One]

I personally agree with the/a underlying theme in this thread, that while today's players are more athletic, and can do a couple more different things, that this doesn't necessarily make today's players better. It's my belief that the skillsets of this era are a byproduct of their time, just like previous eras. While there are more athletic players, there's been a steep tradeoff for actual playing ability, i.e. fundamentals. There's a lot more money to be had today, and this imo has helped to make the game worse in some ways, as opposed to older times when the game wasn't about sponsorships or dough. Skilled as hell players like Isiah Rider, Sebastian Telfair, Derrick Coleman, Stanley Roberts, just faded away into obscurity, and 10 years from now will be total afterthoughts (if not already).

The influence of Europe in the NBA has turned power forwards into shooters, and ironically even centers (Jefferson, Emeka, D12, Aldridge, maybe even Cousins) due to floor spacing. It seemed like the 4 spot saw it's potential maxed out in Garnett, and it's been a steep decline ever since. Just look at now, the best centers in the league were all originally power forwards (Howard, Cousins, Davis, Aldridge. Pau had his best days at the 5, and while his brother Marc's a true 5, even his game is perimeter-oriented). The 4 and 5spots are not what they once were, even 14 or so years ago.

I do get the point of the OP though; that there have been just as many good role players and stars American-bred than overseas, while the true transcendent superstars and tier 1 elites is overwhelmingly in America's favor. Overall though, basketball is the same sport it's always been, there are just different rules, coaching playbooks, fundamental concepts taught, and players today have their games pattened in alternate ways. Long gone are the days of learning the skyhook in 5th grade. I don't think this means that the game has "evolved" or is better or worse, it's just played different.

[Sakkreth]

:no: Baltimore has produced better players than that nation

If you can go by city then i choose Kaunas and population is 300k but majority best Lithuanian players are from there, no contest :confusedshrug:

[Audio One]

Would Pete Maravich, a player who averaged 44 ppg in his college career in the 60's, be a great scorer in today's NBA, or just another Jimmer?

Hmmm... take a look at this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


That 6-5 Maravich ran away with the scoring title in the 76-77 season. He did so in a league that had merged with the talent that was left from the ABA, and in a league that was every bit as "Black" as it is today. Furthermore, he did so in a league with a prime KAJ, a still formidable McAdoo, a near-prime Barry, a prime Dr. J, and and up-and-coming players like Dantley, Gervin, and Moses. Hell, he even hung a 68 point game on the Knicks and Walt Frazier. And keep in mind that a washed up McAdoo was one of, if not the, best players in Europe, and even into his 40's.

Just two years before Maravich's scoring title, Bob McAdoo played 43 mpg, and averaged 34.5 ppg in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg (just last year the NBA averaged 101 ppg.)

In the 80s, Gervin would put up seasons like Pistol's '77. In the late 80's and 90's...MJ was hanging 30+ ppg seasons. And as recently as '06 Kobe was scoring 35 ppg in an NBA that averaged 97 ppg.

And last season, Durant averaged 32 ppg, in a league that averaged 101 ppg.

I see the likes of Ricky Rubio starting in THIS era, and with absolutely ZERO shooting ability (he is, without a doubt, the WORST shooter in NBA history.). And I see teams trading half their roster to get a Rondo who is shooting .405 from the field, and .333 from the line.

Am I supposed to believe that this "globalization" of the NBA would make Maravich a Jimmer?

How about a Kareem, who played in the NBA in the 60's, and who, at ages 38-39, was routinely hanging 40+ point games on Hakeem. My god, a 40 year old KAJ, facing a Hakeem without Sampson, STILL easily outplayed a 25 year old Olajuwon. In their four H2H's, he outscored Hakeem, and outshot him by a .563 to .403 margin.

Yet, a PEAK Kareem, in some 40 H2H's with a fulltime Thurmond...HIGH game of 34, and only five of 30+. Oh, and while an old KAJ shot .607 against Hakeem in their 23 career H2H's, a PEAK Kareem shot .447 against an aging Thurmond in their 40 H2H's.

Shaq's career high against an aging Hakeem... 37 points.

So, this "globalization" had no bearing on an old Kareem's carpet-bombing of Hakeem.


I have read some who have claimed that the '14 Spurs played "Euro" ball to win their title. Sorry,but you can go back to the 60's Celtics, and perhaps an even better example, the 70's Knicks to see a TEAM concept of scoring and defense like the Spurs played last year.

No one is disputing that the rest of the world has had, and has, quality NBA players. But in the last 30+ years, their overall impact has not somehow diminished the play by the truly GREAT U.S. players. Nor would it have had any effect on the GREAT players before the 80's, either.

Will the rest of the world slowly catch up to the U.S.? I think they will. But the greats of yesteryear would still be as great today, and likely well into the future. How can I say that?

Again, where are the other Lebron's, KD's, Kobe's, Shaq's, MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, Moses', Walton's, Dr. J's, McAdoo's, Oscar's, West's, KAJ's, Maravich's, and Wilt's of this era? Other than the orginals, there haven't been ANY.

Yeah, Pistol Pete's as skilled a player as there's ever been. His type of skillset's a Halley's comet type of deal. I'm not so sure today's supposed quantity beats this type of quality

[yarrak]

Give black US players the athletic ability white people have, you'll see lots of great US players. It's not like Europeans are more talented than the rest of the world.

For instance take away their incredible athleticism from Ribery and Ronaldo. How good would they be? Europe is just lucky to have white people. Without them, Europe wouldn't dominate the basketball world the way they do now.

You're talking about how Messi developed once he came to Houston. Well yeah, no shit. The highest level in football is the Champions League. Of course, they will have the best coaches, trainers, medical staff... etc but then again what makes Champions League the highest level in football is white players. Their incredible athleticism separate them from the rest of the world..

Basketball is the most popular sport in the US. That's another reason. If half those people started playing football instead of Basketball when they were little,you'd have a lot more great US players.

dumb fvck

[LAZERUSS]

The period between middle '80s and the late '90s is considered the Golden Era of basketball - I think there is consensus here about it. A combination of a lot of things. TV coverage, globalization, Showtime, MJ, Bird, Magic and so on ...
When Dream team first appears in Barcelona (1992) there was huge gap between US and other world. But to be objective:

1) Dream Team is the greatest team ever assembled, and unfortunately the other two best teams at the time Yugoslavia and USSR broke up. Although most of their players were there playing for their respective countries and occupied the 2, 3 and 4t place (Croatia, Lithuania and Commonwealth of Independent States - the USSR successor) the Croatian team (Petrovic, Kukoc and Radja) and Lithuanian team (with Sabonis and Marčiulionis) were no match for the Americans. Both teams missed the bench depth and other former teammates from previous years when playing under the Yugoslavia and USSR rosters.
Don't get me wrong - Dream team would beat them anyway. But just I thing that the games against Yugoslavia and USSR would be a little more contested then the games vs Croatia and Lithuania.

2) With the years after that and especially after 1996 the US were not presented by their best players and it was qite visible in the early '00s, while the other teams grew stronger and stronger with a lot of NBA players. But had the US send their best players they would have won everything. Just imagine if Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Dunkan, Carter, Allen, Iverson, Kidd, Weber, McGrady, Pierce were on that 2002 team for example.

What I want to say is that NBA is still the best league by far, although the gap is not quite as huge as it was in 1992. The reasons are two - the drain of talent in US and that a lot of international players came in NBA and gain experience playing at highest level.

Had Drazen Petrovic played in today's NBA he would be an All-Star instantly. When he came in late '80s the league was far more conservative than it is now and he happens to play in one of the best teams with prime Drexler at SG.

This is PRECISELY my point.

I have no doubt that the rest of the world will continue to make strides, and place more-and-more players into the NBA.

BUT, in the last 30 years, their "GREAT" contributions have been few-and-far-between.

So, those that rip the decades of the 60's, 70's, and 80's, because it was not yet "globalized" are ignoring the FACT that the rest of the world was nowhere near as talented as the best players in the U.S. The reality was (and exactly as you suggested), the BEST players were ALREADY playing in the NBA in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.

And even since then,...where are all of the KD's, Lebron's, Kobe's, Shaq's, MJ's, Bird's, Magic's, Moses', Dr. J's, McAdoo's, Barry's, KAJ's, West's, Maravich's, Oscar's, and Wilt's? How come with this massive "globalization" we aren't seeing more of them?

BTW, you and I both know that there have been some truly great international players. I am certain that a prime Sabonis (if there ever really was one) would have been among the top centers of the 80's, and without injuries, the 90's. And while Schmidt never played in the NBA, it seems we have enough of his huge games against U.S. Olympic teams to concede that he likely would have at least been a great scorer.

But overall, the rest of the world has not produced very many truly GREAT NBA players. It is a FACT. Will they? More than likely. But it still doesn't diminish what the greats of the 60's, 70's, and 80's were doing. After all, they WERE playing against the BEST basketball players in the WORLD at the time. And using the many "bridges" that we have throughout NBA history, there is absolutely no reason to believe the players of those decades would not be just as great today, either.

[Rooster]

If you can go by city then i choose Kaunas and population is 300k but majority best Lithuanian players are from there, no contest :confusedshrug:

Compton has only 96k, still more produced better players than that.

[LAZERUSS]

I personally agree with the/a underlying theme in this thread, that while today's players are more athletic, and can do a couple more different things, that this doesn't necessarily make today's players better. It's my belief that the skillsets of this era are a byproduct of their time, just like previous eras. While there are more athletic players, there's been a steep tradeoff for actual playing ability, i.e. fundamentals. There's a lot more money to be had today, and this imo has helped to make the game worse in some ways, as opposed to older times when the game wasn't about sponsorships or dough. Skilled as hell players like Isiah Rider, Sebastian Telfair, Derrick Coleman, Stanley Roberts, just faded away into obscurity, and 10 years from now will be total afterthoughts (if not already).

The influence of Europe in the NBA has turned power forwards into shooters, and ironically even centers (Jefferson, Emeka, D12, Aldridge, maybe even Cousins) due to floor spacing. It seemed like the 4 spot saw it's potential maxed out in Garnett, and it's been a steep decline ever since. Just look at now, the best centers in the league were all originally power forwards (Howard, Cousins, Davis, Aldridge. Pau had his best days at the 5, and while his brother Marc's a true 5, even his game is perimeter-oriented). The 4 and 5spots are not what they once were, even 14 or so years ago.

I do get the point of the OP though; that there have been just as many good role players and stars American-bred than overseas, while the true transcendent superstars and tier 1 elites is overwhelmingly in America's favor. Overall though, basketball is the same sport it's always been, there are just different rules, coaching playbooks, fundamental concepts taught, and players today have their games pattened in alternate ways. Long gone are the days of learning the skyhook in 5th grade. I don't think this means that the game has "evolved" or is better or worse, it's just played different.

Well said.

Greatness is greatness. Dirk is a one-of-a-kind. As was Hakeem. And while we will never really know, based on what a broken down Sabonis gave the NBA, he likely would have been among the best centers of the 80's and 90's.

And speaking of rules, I get a kick out of the modern day "dribbling", too. It has gotten so bad, that you can literally call "palming" (where the hand drops below the equator of the ball) on virtually EVERY single dribble.

Had players of the 60's and 70's been allowed to "palm" the ball, and to "carry" the ball as they routinely do now, and the would have looked much "cooler" back then, too.

In any case, we have not seen FT shooting get any better in the last 55 years of the NBA, and often, it has been worse than back then. Furthermore, had the 3pt shot been anywhere near as prevalent back then, players would have adapted, and shot it just as well, then, too.

[LAZERUSS]

:no: Baltimore has produced better players than that nation

Damn!

I am not one to use the "rep" system, but if it ever returns here, I will certainly rep you.

[Euroleague]

Again, a broken down 34 year old McAdoo in his last NBA season, in 1986... 10.1 ppg, 3.6 rpg, and on a .462 FG%.

Then this...

And yet ANOTHER one of Rooster's/gabepizza's/Milbuck's/yarrack's troll aliases has been identified.

[Euroleague]

How many playoff wins does Pau have without Kobe?

I already conceded Dirk, Manu, and Parker (and again, Duncan's game was developed in the U.S.)

But, how many Finals has Dirk been in in his career?

And who was the Finals MVP for the Spurs last year?

And give me a list of the other "Euros" who have carried their teams in the last 30+ years. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

Everyone knows "Euros" is a term that racist black supremacists use to degrade white players.

It's actually the SAME exact nonsense that comes from NHL xenophobic bullshit 101 code words to refer to all the players from non US and non Canada countries as well.

You are not fooling anyone yarrak.

[Euroleague]

There's a reason that NBA players go overseas when they wash out of the NBA, and why former NBA players who are stuck overseas jump at the opportunity to play in the Association, even if it means a pay cut.

It'd be a safe bet to say that most NCAA teams could easily beat most, if not all, of the overseas "professional" teams.

:kobe:

Coach Nick has yet ANOTHER troll alias on the board.

[Euroleague]

dumb fvck

You are the one that is flooding the forum with racist post after racist post after racist post. You are also using about 15 different troll aliases.

He simply called you out on it, and clearly showed the ludicrous level of your racism and what a complete hypocrite you are.

It's no surprise that you respond in such a manner.

[KobesFinger]

Everyone knows "Euros" is a term that racist black supremacists use to degrade white players.

It's actually the SAME exact nonsense that comes from NHL xenophobic bullshit 101 code words to refer to all the players from non US and non Canada countries as well.

You are not fooling anyone yarrak.

Tony Parker is a Euro (black French/Belgian), Dante Exum isn't (black Australian). Dirk is a Euro (white German), Andrew Bogut isn't (white Australian). Boris Diaw is a Euro (black French), Steven Adams isn't (white New Zealander).

Euro refers to a player from Europe, not players who aren't from North America. It just so happens that the vast majority of these players are white.

Inb4 Ginobili and eurostep

[eliteballer]

Tony Parker is a Euro (black French/Belgian), Dante Exum isn't (black Australian). Dirk is a Euro (white German), Andrew Bogut isn't (white Australian). Boris Diaw is a Euro (black French), Steven Adams isn't (white New Zealander).

Euro refers to a player from Europe, not players who aren't from North America. It just so happens that the vast majority of these players are white.

Inb4 Ginobili and eurostep

Bogut is ethnically Croat, for what its worth.

[Euroleague]

Tony Parker is a Euro (black French/Belgian), Dante Exum isn't (black Australian). Dirk is a Euro (white German), Andrew Bogut isn't (white Australian). Boris Diaw is a Euro (black French), Steven Adams isn't (white New Zealander).

Euro refers to a player from Europe, not players who aren't from North America. It just so happens that the vast majority of these players are white.

Inb4 Ginobili and eurostep

It's called a racist code word.

"Euros" = white guys

That's what they are referring to. The fact that Europe has black people is a fact that escapes racists in the US, because they are both ignorant and retarded.

Also, Bogut is of Croatian descent.

[La Frescobaldi]

And yet ANOTHER one of Rooster's/gabepizza's/Milbuck's/yarrack's troll aliases has been identified.
So McAdoo didn't actually do those things?

[Euroleague]

So McAdoo didn't actually do those things?

What does what McAdoo did 25 or more years ago before leagues were even professional in Europe have to do with anything?

Especially in the case of ONLY listing some national league in some instance and not even Euroleague like he was, or also in some other case when he did mention Euroleague, also not mentioning that he played on by far the most stacked team in all of Europe?

Are you claiming that basketball in Europe was at the same level 25+ years ago as it is now? Because if you are, you are entering into mega troll level yourself.

Is that relevant to ANYTHING?

McAdoo himself even said he wasn't even close to even being the best player in the Euroleague then, just as one example.

So WTF is the relevance of posts like,

"old washed up corpse like McAdoo DOMINATED and DESTROYED Euroleague".

And are you also denying that it's troll aliases of Rooster/gabepizza/Milbuck, etc.? Because these ARE the same troll.

So are you saying this is legitimate basketball discussion and not trolling?

[LAZERUSS]

Everyone knows "Euros" is a term that racist black supremacists use to degrade white players.

It's actually the SAME exact nonsense that comes from NHL xenophobic bullshit 101 code words to refer to all the players from non US and non Canada countries as well.

You are not fooling anyone yarrak.

I can't speak for yarrak, but IF by chance I did somehow offend anyone with the term "Euro", I do apologize.

BTW, would anyone be offended if they were associated with Dirk?


Furthermore, one of the admins here posted a response to my take on the U.S. having far more GREAT players in the last 30 years, with this...


So compare this list with all the great white Americans this century and who you got.

Its a black American game, thought you knew? Oh wait...its you, nevermind

IMO, the AMERICANs have dominated the basketball world, whether they have been white or Black. I personally could not care less what race they are, or have been.

But hey, that's just me. If other's here want to make this a race issue, go right ahead. I do KNOW that I could have (and in fact did) rattled off MANY great White U.S. players.

[La Frescobaldi]

What does what McAdoo did 25 or more years ago before leagues were even professional in Europe have to do with anything?

Especially in the case of ONLY listing some national league in some instance and not even Euroleague like he was, or also in some other case when he did mention Euroleague, also not mentioning that he played on by far the most stacked team in all of Europe?

Are you claiming that basketball in Europe was at the same level 25+ years ago as it is now? Because if you are, you are entering into mega troll level yourself.

Is that relevant to ANYTHING?

McAdoo himself even said he wasn't even close to even being the best player in the Euroleague then, just as one example.

So WTF is the relevance of posts like,

"old washed up corpse like McAdoo DOMINATED and DESTROYED Euroleague".

And are you also denying that it's troll aliases of Rooster/gabepizza/Milbuck, etc.? Because these ARE the same troll.

So are you saying this is legitimate basketball discussion and not trolling?
Where does Lazerbeam say anything about Euoleague in that post?

He's talking about Mac, washed up and getting like 10ppg in the NBA.... descending on Italy like Zeus's Thunderbolt.

Did it happen yes or no?

And if you think Lazeruss is rooster then you're deluded. Lazeruss couldn't have that bad of logic if he was blind drunk and dancing with the pink elephants.

[LAZERUSS]

What does what McAdoo did 25 or more years ago before leagues were even professional in Europe have to do with anything?

Especially in the case of ONLY listing some national league in some instance and not even Euroleague like he was, or also in some other case when he did mention Euroleague, also not mentioning that he played on by far the most stacked team in all of Europe?

Are you claiming that basketball in Europe was at the same level 25+ years ago as it is now? Because if you are, you are entering into mega troll level yourself.

Is that relevant to ANYTHING?

McAdoo himself even said he wasn't even close to even being the best player in the Euroleague then, just as one example.

So WTF is the relevance of posts like,

"old washed up corpse like McAdoo DOMINATED and DESTROYED Euroleague".

And are you also denying that it's troll aliases of Rooster/gabepizza/Milbuck, etc.? Because these ARE the same troll.

So are you saying this is legitimate basketball discussion and not trolling?

How about this article from the NY Times in 1987...

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/24/sports/mcadoo-is-enjoying-success-in-europe.html



Bob McAdoo found himself at the end of his N.B.A. career last year, after 14 years in which he won three scoring titles and was once named the league's most valuable player. He was not wanted, not by anyone. Or so he believed. In Italy, McAdoo found success. Reigning Champions He is in his second season with Tracer Milan, the reigning champion of European basketball. Tonight, in the opening contest of the inaugural three-day McDonald's Open, McAdoo led his team with 37 points against the Milwaukee Bucks here at the Mecca. The Bucks won, 123-111, but not without struggling in the final minutes to maintain their lead.

On Saturday, Tracer Milan will face the national team of the Soviet Union, and in the climax of the round-robin exhibition tournament, the Soviet team will face the Bucks in their first game against an N.B.A. team.

''I'm enjoying the whole thing now,'' said McAdoo, who did not receive an offer from his last team, the Philadelphia 76ers, until after he signed with Tracer Milan. ''In a way, I was disappointed at first. I wasn't ready to quit, but I wasn't sure about going. My wife finally convinced me. She said, 'If these people don't know what you can do after 14 years, why wait?' ''

McAdoo is 36 years old, and his two-day beard growth is mostly gray. But to his teammates and followers of Tracer Milan he is every bit the player who averaged 22.1 points and played on two championship teams in the N.B.A.

Last season McAdoo averaged 25.7 points and 9.6 rebounds a game in leading his team to the Italian Championship, the Cup of Italy and the European Cup, the first time a team had captured the European Grand Slam since 1973.

''He was the first American player we signed who when the crowd saw him, they knew who he was because they saw him on television,'' said his coach, Franco Casalini. ''After that the love between him and the Italian people was born.''

McAdoo earns about $290,000 annually, about four times the salary of most of his Italian teammates, and is allowed complimentary use of an apartment and a car, along with free meals and tuition for his 4-year-old son, Ross. Such compensation is close to the standard paid to the American players in Europe, where each team is allowed to carry two foreigners.

McAdoo said he knows he is lucky to have found refuge. Throughout his career, he knew players who emigrated to Italy and other European countries seeking to extend their careers in one of the several professional leagues throughout the continent.

Some were successful, carving out niches as highly paid icons. Others were not, unable to cope with the culture, the language or the pressure of having to perform to the high expectations established by their new teammates and fans.

''I can see how some Americans wouldn't fit in,'' McAdoo said. ''You can put a good player with some Italians who don't know the game that well and it'll be a disaster. Most Italian guards are scoring guards, not point guards. They telegraph their passes and don't know how to get the ball to you.''

McAdoo, who at 6 feet 10 inches plays center for Tracer, said the gap in talent is wide.

''We could play with a good college team, but the Italian teams lack size, quickness and defensive pressure,'' he said. ''Plus, the bigger Italians are only 6-9, 6-10 and they play like forwards. And they don't have the intensity of the N.B.A. level.''


Looks he was at least among the BEST of PROFESSIONAL European Leagues.

Of course, he would also go on to do this...

Oh, BTW, this is from EUROLEAGUEBASKTBALL.NET...

http://www.euroleague.net/features/voices/2011-2012/vladimir-stankovic/i/93850/6180/bob-mcadoo-the-nba-and-european-champ


When, in the summer of 1986, McAdoo signed for a Tracer Milano, which was then coached by Dan Peterson, he was almost 35 years old and many doubted his ability to play at a high level. The start of the European season confirmed the doubts. On October 30, 1986, Tracer lost in Thessaloniki to Aris by 31 points, 98-67. Nikos Galis destroyed the team with 44 points. Aris already led 60-34 at the halftime break. In the return game, played November 6 in Milan, one of the biggest comebacks in European competition ever took place. Tracer won 83-49. After a quiet first half, McAdoo led his team with 21 points and 9 rebounds. After the game, McAdoo admitted to his coach that it had been the most intense game of his career.

Second youth in Italy

Bob McAdoo After the miracle, Tracer Milano marched towards the European final... and won it! The rival in the final played on April 2, 1987, in Lausanne, Switzerland was Maccabi Tel Aviv. Tracer won 71-69 and McAdoo was the second-best scorer on his team (21 points) after Roberto Premier (23) and the best rebounder with 9 boards. The team from Milan was European champ again after 21 years.

The following year, with Franco Casalini as boss, Tracer repeated the victory in the first Final Four of the modern era (two experimental ones had taken place before in 1966 in Bologna and 1967 in Madrid). After a round-robin phase with eight teams, Partizan of Vlade Divac, Sasha Djordjevic, Zarko Paspalj and Zeljko Obradovic reached the Final Four in Ghent as leader with 10 wins and 4 losses. Galis and Panagiotis Gianakis took Aris to 9-5 to finish second and Tracer Milano - with Mike D'Antoni, Dino Meneghin, Ricky Brown, Premier and McAdoo - was third also at 9-5. Maccabi finished fourth with an 8-6 record led by Miki Berkowitz, Doron Jamchy, Kevin Magee and Ken Barlow. In the semifinals, Maccabi defeated Partizan 97-82 and Tracer defeated Aris by the same score. In the big final, a brilliant McAdoo (25 points, 12 rebounds) led Tracer to another win over Maccabi.

McAdoo played in Milan until 1990. The two following years he played in Forli with averages of 31.7 points and 9.6 rebounds. He put an end to his career in Teamsystem Fabriano in 1992-93 at 42 years old. Over seven seasons in Italy, he played 201 games, scored 5,427 points (27.3 ppg.) and averaged 9.0 boards per game. He won the Italian League twice, the Italian Cup once and one Intercontinental cup – all with Milano.


All from a 35 year old WASHED UP HAS-BEEN McAdoo...who would continue to be great up to age 42.

[Euroleague]

Where does Lazerbeam say anything about Euoleague in that post?

He's talking about Mac, washed up and getting like 10ppg in the NBA.... descending on Italy like Zeus's Thunderbolt.

Did it happen yes or no?

And if you think Lazeruss is rooster then you're deluded. Lazeruss couldn't have that bad of logic if he was blind drunk and dancing with the pink elephants.

Clearly, it's the same person. If you even attempt to argue that, I am going to start to think you are also one of the same aliases.

Rooster is on the hook for making HUNDREDS of racist posts here, so he is trying to funnel all of his "contributions" through all of aliases.

However, literally word for word, what he writes is everything that has been written in this thread by lazer. If it is not the same person, then they are in a hive mind.

No one can literally write that word for word, post for post, thread for thread, like that and not be the same person.

[LAZERUSS]

Are you claiming that basketball in Europe was at the same level 25+ years ago as it is now? Because if you are, you are entering into mega troll level yourself.



Of course, I have been claiming that all along...as did the much more knowledgable Julizaver...who actually uses RESEARCH in his posts.

Here again, those that have used the RIDICULOUS argument that we should diminish what the players of the 60's, 70's, and 80's accomplished, because the NBA was not yet "globalized", have a ZERO case. The BEST players in the entire WORLD played in the U.S.

Hell, they weren't anywhere near the U.S. level in the 90's, either. The original "Dream Team" conclusively proved that.

And other than a dozen or so since (if that), the U.S. continues to produce the GREATEST basketball players in the WORLD.

A mid-70's McAdoo would be just as great TODAY. A mid-70's Walton would be just as great TODAY. Moses would blow away the best centers in TODAY's NBA. Maravich would be among the scoring leaders in TODAY's NBA. David Robinson would shell TODAY's NBA centers. MJ would be the best player in TODAY's NBA. A prime Shaq would CRUSH TODAY's NBA centers (hell, a shell of a Shaq hung a 45 point game back in 2009.) Kareem would BLOW AWAY the BEST centers in TODAY's (just as he did Hakeem in the 80's, and at ages 38-40.) Tiny Archibald would be better in every aspect of the game than Chris Paul in TODAY's NBA. Nate Thurmond would routinely shut down TODAY's NBA centers, just like he did to a PEAK Kareem. And, of course, if an old KAJ could murder the best centers of the 80's (except for Moses)...then one can only imagine what a PRIME Chamberlain would carpet-bomb TODAY's centers with.

"Globalization" my ass.

[LAZERUSS]

Clearly, it's the same person. If you even attempt to argue that, I am going to start to think you are also one of the same aliases.

Rooster is on the hook for making HUNDREDS of racist posts here, so he is trying to funnel all of his "contributions" through all of aliases.

However, literally word for word, what he writes is everything that has been written in this thread by lazer. If it is not the same person, then they are in a hive mind.

No one can literally write that word for word, post for post, thread for thread, like that and not be the same person.

Well you are completely WRONG.

Nor am I "Audio One", or "Houston", or any number of other posters here who SOMETIMES agree with my takes.

[Euroleague]

Of course, I have been claiming that all along...as did the much more knowledgable Julizaver...who actually uses RESEARCH in his posts.

Here again, those that have used the RIDICULOUS argument that we should diminish what the players of the 60's, 70's, and 80's accomplished, because the NBA was not yet "globalized", have a ZERO case. The BEST players in the entire WORLD played in the U.S.

Hell, they weren't anywhere near the U.S. level in the 90's, either. The original "Dream Team" conclusively proved that.

And other than a dozen or so since (if that), the U.S. continues to produce the GREATEST basketball players in the WORLD.

A mid-70's McAdoo would be just as great TODAY. A mid-70's Walton would be just as great TODAY. Moses would blow away the best centers in TODAY's NBA. Maravich would be among the scoring leaders in TODAY's NBA. David Robinson would shell TODAY's NBA centers. MJ would be the best player in TODAY's NBA. A prime Shaq would CRUSH TODAY's NBA centers (hell, a shell of a Shaq hung a 45 point game back in 2009.) Kareem would BLOW AWAY the BEST centers in TODAY's (just as he did Hakeem in the 80's, and at ages 38-40.) Tiny Archibald would be better in every aspect of the game than Chris Paul in TODAY's NBA. Nate Thurmond would routinely shut down TODAY's NBA centers, just like he did to a PEAK Kareem. And, of course, if an old KAJ could murder the best centers of the 80's (except for Moses)...then one can only imagine what a PRIME Chamberlain would carpet-bomb TODAY's centers with.

"Globalization" my ass.

:wtf:

Basketball in EUROPE 25+ years ago when McAdoo played there was NOTHING then compared to now. And any clown that says it was the same or better should take a 3 day ban.

That's so laughable..........I can't even...................

[Euroleague]

Well you are completely WRONG.

Nor am I "Audio One", or "Houston", or any number of other posters here who SOMETIMES agree with my takes.

Then why are you WORD for WORD saying what Rooster says, gabepizza says, etc.?

Get serious. If you want an actual basketball discussion, stop trolling.

[LAZERUSS]

:wtf:

Basketball in EUROPE 25+ years ago when McAdoo played there was NOTHING then compared to now. And any clown that says it was the same or better should take a 3 day ban.

That's so laughable..........I can't even...................

It was pure shit up into the 90's.

It is somewhat better today.

[yarrak]

I can't speak for yarrak, but IF by chance I did somehow offend anyone with the term "Euro", I do apologize.

BTW, would anyone be offended if they were associated with Dirk?


Furthermore, one of the admins here posted a response to my take on the U.S. having far more GREAT players in the last 30 years, with this...



IMO, the AMERICANs have dominated the basketball world, whether they have been white or Black. I personally could not care less what race they are, or have been.

But hey, that's just me. If other's here want to make this a race issue, go right ahead. I do KNOW that I could have (and in fact did) rattled off MANY great White U.S. players.

No American white players never really dominated the game aside from Larry Bird. Take a look at all the all time greats.

Jordan=black
Kareem=black
Wilt=black
Magic=black
Russell=black
Bird=white
Shaq=black
Kobe=black
Lebron=black
Duncan=black

the list goes on and on like this. It's not a race issue, it's a fact. If you really believe that americans would still dominate the game without blacks, I don't have anything else to say to you.

Lol @ Euroleague calling me racist. How many times do I need to tell you that I'm white, European and NOT racist idiot?

Euros is not a racist term. I don't think anyone other than Euroleague gets offended by that word.

Euroleague why are you so full of shit bro? I thought you blocked me in that other thread after I exposed all your lies and BS claims? yet you're here responding to my posts..

[La Frescobaldi]

Clearly, it's the same person. If you even attempt to argue that, I am going to start to think you are also one of the same aliases.

Rooster is on the hook for making HUNDREDS of racist posts here, so he is trying to funnel all of his "contributions" through all of aliases.

However, literally word for word, what he writes is everything that has been written in this thread by lazer. If it is not the same person, then they are in a hive mind.

No one can literally write that word for word, post for post, thread for thread, like that and not be the same person.

lol at rooster being Lazer

also where do you get off on that earlier post saying they weren't professionals in Italy when they were? Lazeruss even brought news articles about salaries. Or that euroleague wasn't around when it was? Or that McAdoo didn't dominate when he did?
And you call us trolls?

[Euroleague]

It was pure shit up into the 90's.

It is somewhat better today.

So let me get this straight.............

So you think you an expert on basketball, yet you like almost all the other people here, don't under stand that EUROPE isn't a country.

Right.

[LAZERUSS]

Then why are you WORD for WORD saying what Rooster says, gabepizza says, etc.?

Get serious. If you want an actual basketball discussion, stop trolling.

You have NEVER "discussed" ANYTHING here. All you do is rant about how the European players today are on the level of the NBA...which is a BLATANT FALLACY.

The majority of the international players manning today's NBA rosters could just as easily be replaced by many of the U.S. players, and the game would not suffer one bit.

Yes, there are SOME very good, to even GREAT international players playing in the NBA today, but the truly GREAT one's like Dirk, are few-and-far-between. Just as they have always been.

[Euroleague]

No American white players never really dominated the game aside from Larry Bird. Take a look at all the all time greats.

Jordan=black
Kareem=black
Wilt=black
Magic=black
Russell=black
Bird=white
Shaq=black
Kobe=black
Lebron=black
Duncan=black

the list goes on and on like this. It's not a race issue, it's a fact. If you really believe that americans would still dominate the game without blacks, I don't have anything else to say to you.

Lol @ Euroleague calling me racist. How many times do I need to tell you that I'm white, European and NOT racist idiot?

Euros is not a racist term. I don't think anyone other than Euroleague gets offended by that word.

Euroleague why are you so full of shit bro? I thought you blocked me in that other thread after I exposed all your lies and BS claims? yet you're here responding to my posts..

You are a racist POS. If I was a mod you would have been banned for a good 6 months already.

[LAZERUSS]

So let me get this straight.............

So you think you an expert on basketball, yet you like almost all the other people here, don't under stand that EUROPE isn't a country.

Right.

Let's get THIS straight...

There is the U.S., with 5% of the world's population, and then there is EVERYONE else, wiith 95% of the population. And yet, since "globalization", the U.S. has produced 90% of the truly GREAT players in the WORLD.

[La Frescobaldi]

Let's get THIS straight...

There is the U.S., with 5% of the world's population, and then there is EVERYONE else, wiith 95% of the population. And yet, since "globalization", the U.S. has produced 90% of the truly GREAT players in the WORLD.

99.9% of the greats tbh

[La Frescobaldi]

So let me get this straight.............

So you think you an expert on basketball, yet you like almost all the other people here, don't under stand that EUROPE isn't a country.

Right.
Have you ever been to Europe my friend?

[yarrak]

You are a racist POS. If i was a mod you would have been banned for a good 6 months already.

Too bad you're not and will never be a mod. You can think whatever you want. I don't give a shit about your opinion. I don't have anything against any races. If saying that blacks>whites in terms of athleticism makes me racist, then yes I guess I am.

[Euroleague]

lol at rooster being Lazer

also where do you get off on that earlier post saying they weren't professionals in Italy when they were? Lazeruss even brought news articles about salaries. Or that euroleague wasn't around when it was? Or that McAdoo didn't dominate when he did?
And you call us trolls?

The leagues in Europe were professional. They were not fully professional. There is a huge difference and if you cannot grasp that, then there is no point in even discussing with you.

Leagues in Europe did not become fully professional until the early 90s. That is an absolute fact.

Example, Greek League was professional at 1950, based on players being paid. It was professional at 1963, based on how the league was structured within the competition of sports system within Greek sports......

It was not FULLY professional under professional sports law (what is the same thing as in USA sports leagues) until 1992.

If you cannot grasp the difference, then to even debate this with you is absolutely pointless.

Italian League I believe was not fully professional until 1991, if I remember correctly, and the same for Spanish League. Those were always by far the best leagues in Europe, along with ones like USSR and Yugo league, but of course those ones didn't last.

But HUGE difference is the leagues like USSR and Yugo leagues had communist club system, so they were inherently "fully professional" equivalent in their own way. It was a different system, communist, not capitalist, but it was the same kind of thing.

But no way for leagues like Italy.

And I am not talking pay wise. That's bullshit. NBA was not professional pay wise until mid 1980s. I am talking about what it technically means to be a fully professional league.

[Euroleague]

You have NEVER "discussed" ANYTHING here. All you do is rant about how the European players today are on the level of the NBA...which is a BLATANT FALLACY.

The majority of the international players manning today's NBA rosters could just as easily be replaced by many of the U.S. players, and the game would not suffer one bit.

Yes, there are SOME very good, to even GREAT international players playing in the NBA today, but the truly GREAT one's like Dirk, are few-and-far-between. Just as they have always been.

And you confirm you are a troll alias. BTW, your agenda failed.

[LAZERUSS]

99.9% of the greats tbh

Well, if you include Hakeem, who supposedly wasn't hardly recruited by ANY colleges, and who developed his game in the U.S.; or Duncan, who again, developed his game in the U.S.; or Ewing, who GREW UP in the U.S.; as well as Dirk...and then the "lessor" "greats" like Parker, the Gasol's, Manu, Mutombo, Vlade, and a few others...it is more like 90-95%. Again, we are covering EVERY great NBA who has ever played the game.

And again, those who use "globalization" in their arguments to diminish the players of the 60's, 70's, 80's...need to accept the REALITY, that there just were not any really any truly GREAT international players in the world at the time (perhaps Sabonis, but we will really never know.) And there has been very few since.

[La Frescobaldi]

The leagues in Europe were professional. They were not fully professional. There is a huge difference and if you cannot grasp that, then there is no point in even discussing with you.

Leagues in Europe did not become fully professional until the early 90s. That is an absolute fact.

Example, Greek League was professional at 1950, based on players being paid. It was professional at 1963, based on how the league was structured within the competition of sports system within Greek sports......

It was not FULLY professional under professional sports law (what is the same thing as in USA sports leagues) until 1992.

If you cannot grasp the difference, then to even debate this with you is absolutely pointless.

Italian League I believe was not fully professional until 1991, if I remember correctly, and the same for Spanish League. Those were always by far the best leagues in Europe, along with ones like USSR and Yugo league, but of course those ones didn't last.

But HUGE difference is the leagues like USSR and Yugo leagues had communist club system, so they were inherently "fully professional" equivalent in their own way. It was a different system, communist, not capitalist, but it was the same kind of thing.

But no way for leagues like Italy.

And I am not talking pay wise. That's bullshit. NBA was not professional pay wise until mid 1980s. I am talking about what it technically means to be a fully professional league.
What does fully professional mean euroleague? All players get paid? Or what?

[LAZERUSS]

The leagues in Europe were professional. They were not fully professional. There is a huge difference and if you cannot grasp that, then there is no point in even discussing with you.

Leagues in Europe did not become fully professional until the early 90s. That is an absolute fact.

Example, Greek League was professional at 1950, based on players being paid. It was professional at 1963, based on how the league was structured within the competition of sports system within Greek sports......

It was not FULLY professional under professional sports law (what is the same thing as in USA sports leagues) until 1992.

If you cannot grasp the difference, then to even debate this with you is absolutely pointless.

Italian League I believe was not fully professional until 1991, if I remember correctly, and the same for Spanish League. Those were always by far the best leagues in Europe, along with ones like USSR and Yugo league, but of course those ones didn't last.

But HUGE difference is the leagues like USSR and Yugo leagues had communist club system, so they were inherently "fully professional" equivalent in their own way. It was a different system, communist, not capitalist, but it was the same kind of thing.

But no way for leagues like Italy.

And I am not talking pay wise. That's bullshit. NBA was not professional pay wise until mid 1980s. I am talking about what it technically means to be a fully professional league.

You have absolutely no clue in what you are talking about, do you?

The NBA was not fully professional until the mid-80's? That is news to me. You must be the ONLY one who knows something that virtually no one else in the world does.

[La Frescobaldi]

Well, if you include Hakeem, who supposedly wasn't hardly recruited by ANY colleges, and who developed his game in the U.S.; or Duncan, who again, developed his game in the U.S.; or Ewing, who GREW UP in the U.S.; as well as Dirk...and then the "lessor" "greats" like Parker, the Gasol's, Manu, Mutombo, Vlade, and a few others...it is more like 90-95%. Again, we are covering EVERY great NBA who has ever played the game.

And again, those who use "globalization" in their arguments to diminish the players of the 60's, 70's, 80's...need to accept the REALITY, that there just were not any really any truly GREAT international players in the world at the time (perhaps Sabonis, but we will really never know.) And there has been very few since.
No because 3rd tier guys like Paul George or Dominique Wilkins or Chet Walker are all-time greats in the totality of the game, as Euroleague is trying to understand it.

[fpliii]

What's going on here...?

[Euroleague]

Well, if you include Hakeem, who supposedly wasn't hardly recruited by ANY colleges, and who developed his game in the U.S.; or Duncan, who again, developed his game in the U.S.; or Ewing, who GREW UP in the U.S.; as well as Dirk...and then the "lessor" "greats" like Parker, the Gasol's, Manu, Mutombo, Vlade, and a few others...it is more like 90-95%. Again, we are covering EVERY great NBA who has ever played the game.

And again, those who use "globalization" in their arguments to diminish the players of the 60's, 70's, 80's...need to accept the REALITY, that there just were not any really any truly GREAT international players in the world at the time (perhaps Sabonis, but we will really never know.) And there has been very few since.

This "developed in the US" proved you are Rooster. Because Seikaly was "developed in Greece" just as an example, and yet somehow, despite him CLAIMING HIMSELF he is GREEK, Rooster made about 500 racist posts here saying he was "not Greek.

Same EXACT thing with Peja, who was also "developed in Greece" and also claims himself as Greek. Yet Rooster has made dozens of posts here in RACIST manner, saying Peja isn't Greek.

I could go on with dozens more examples.

But let's not stop there................

Schrempf then is American according to you, since he played in USA as a youth. So how come you even call him European?

Same with Jasikevicius........how can someone playing high school and college in USA be "Lithuanian" then?

Why are you CHERRY PICKING like THAT?

I could make DOZENS of examples like this.

YOU ARE ROOSTER

And not only that, but your agenda FAILED. All you did was out yourself, and out your new racist alias "yarrack".

From now on, EVERY time you do stuff like this, it's getting reported.

[Euroleague]

What does fully professional mean euroleague? All players get paid? Or what?

No. All players get paid is semi professional. That would be something like minor leagues in USA like CBA, USBL things like that.

All players get paid enough to just play basketball is professional. For example of USA that would be something like D-League (in theory at least).

Fully professional, is the league where all players get paid enough just to play basketball, and where the league meets all the sporting criteria and technical aspects (all the laws, all the governing body rules and oversights, etc.), where everything is at the highest standard of regulations.....

For USA in terms of basketball that would be like NBA, or the old ABA.

That didn't exist at all in Europe until the 1990s. If you don't want to believe, then believe whatever you want to, but that is the truth.

Things like Italian league or Champions Cup back in those days were not fully professional leagues. That's just reality.

[La Frescobaldi]

What's going on here...?
Hey man!!

Nah.... me and Laz are just having fun showing how Euroleague is a Rooster alt :oldlol: :lol :roll:

he's actually kinda good on hoops but then when he gets all lathered up excited he has that same roostery level logic

:roll: :roll: :rockon:

[Euroleague]

You have absolutely no clue in what you are talking about, do you?

The NBA was not fully professional until the mid-80's? That is news to me. You must be the ONLY one who knows something that virtually no one else in the world does.

So you claim to know all this stuff about the NBA from back in the day, and you didn't even know that the NBA wasn't totally pro pay wise until early to mid 1980s?

Now you are just totally trolling.

[La Frescobaldi]

No. All players get paid is semi professional. That would be something like minor leagues in USA like CBA, USBL things like that.

All players get paid enough to just play basketball is professional. For example of USA that would be something like D-League (in theory at least).

Fully professional, is the league where all players get paid enough just to play basketball, and where the league meets all the sporting criteria and technical aspects (all the laws, all the governing body rules and oversights, etc.), where everything is at the highest standard of regulations.....

For USA in terms of basketball that would be like NBA, or the old ABA.

That didn't exist at all in Europe until the 1990s. If you don't want to believe, then believe whatever you want to, but that is the truth.

Things like Italian league or Champions Cup back in those days were not fully professional leagues. That's just reality.

I see. Like early '60s NBA where a lotta guys had to work during the off season.

Still, using your strangely twisted and completely new definition of professional, which I have literally never heard before in 45 years of watching pro sports.... the NBA was fully pro by 1970 bro, at the very latest, while the ABA never was.

[La Frescobaldi]

So let me get this straight.............

So you think you an expert on basketball, yet you like almost all the other people here, don't under stand that EUROPE isn't a country.

Right.
Have you ever been to Europe my friend?

btw ~ did you ever answer this?

[Rooster]

You have NEVER "discussed" ANYTHING here. All you do is rant about how the European players today are on the level of the NBA...which is a BLATANT FALLACY.

The majority of the international players manning today's NBA rosters could just as easily be replaced by many of the U.S. players, and the game would not suffer one bit.

Yes, there are SOME very good, to even GREAT international players playing in the NBA today, but the truly GREAT one's like Dirk, are few-and-far-between. Just as they have always been.

Actually if you look at the 35 Euroleague greatest players, there are more Americans there than any nation in Europe.

The only Euro that deserved to be in top 50 NBA GOAT is Dirk.

[Euroleague]

I see. Like early '60s NBA where a lotta guys had to work during the off season.

Still, using your strangely twisted and completely new definition of professional, which I have literally never heard before in 45 years of watching pro sports.... the NBA was fully pro by 1970 bro, at the very latest, while the ABA never was.

Reading comprehension 101. You lack it.

[Euroleague]

Actually if you look at the 35 Euroleague greatest players, there are more Americans there than any nation in Europe.

The only Euro that deserved to be in top 50 NBA GOAT is Dirk.

The troll alias is back again.

And there is no such thing as "35 Euroleague greatest players." This thing that you have mentioned about 100 times in this forum does not exist.

[La Frescobaldi]

Reading comprehension 101. You lack it.

Maybe.

Do tell - what can an amateur can earn before he becomes a professional?

Is it millions of dollars? Thousands? Fifty? Does $50 make a guy a pro? What about a pair of sneakers, Euroleague?

Is an athlete barred from amateur competition because he took a dollar, Euroleague?

Is a professional an athlete who takes any form of renumeration?

[La Frescobaldi]

So let me get this straight.............

So you think you an expert on basketball, yet you like almost all the other people here, don't under stand that EUROPE isn't a country.

Right.
Have you ever been to Europe my friend?

btw ~ did you ever answer this?

btw ~ still waiting to hear from you!!

[LAZERUSS]

This "developed in the US" proved you are Rooster. Because Seikaly was "developed in Greece" just as an example, and yet somehow, despite him CLAIMING HIMSELF he is GREEK, Rooster made about 500 racist posts here saying he was "not Greek.

Same EXACT thing with Peja, who was also "developed in Greece" and also claims himself as Greek. Yet Rooster has made dozens of posts here in RACIST manner, saying Peja isn't Greek.

I could go on with dozens more examples.

But let's not stop there................

Schrempf then is American according to you, since he played in USA as a youth. So how come you even call him European?

Same with Jasikevicius........how can someone playing high school and college in USA be "Lithuanian" then?

Why are you CHERRY PICKING like THAT?

I could make DOZENS of examples like this.

YOU ARE ROOSTER

And not only that, but your agenda FAILED. All you did was out yourself, and out your new racist alias "yarrack".

From now on, EVERY time you do stuff like this, it's getting reported.


You are going to "report me" for simply telling the TRUTH?

As Frank Drebin said in "The Naked Gun"...two can play this game.

I will report you for stupidity.

[LAZERUSS]

The troll alias is back again.

And there is no such thing as "35 Euroleague greatest players." This thing that you have mentioned about 100 times in this forum does not exist.

I agree with you there...there clearly are not, and never have been, 35 great Euroleague players. Period.

[tgan3]

Truth is the american's basketball system is superior to other countries. For example, in Europe and China the sports stars are selected in early teens to play with their clubs and then slowly develop to the men's level. While America does not do so and has competition from AAU to high school to college before being selected to the pros. Thus maybe developing a more competitive nature and a larger talent pool to select from.

That said there may be very good basketball players that may become a great but then are not selected to the NBA (Afterall domestic players will be given priority). These very good players then would not have the playing environment to reach their full potential since you only become a great playing against the world's best but they only have access to their countries best.

[LAZERUSS]

McAdoo was 36 when he went to Europe and dominated for seven years.

I guess it is time for Kobe to move on, as well.

Probably average 40 ppg in the European Leagues.

[yarrak]

McAdoo was 36 when he went to Europe and dominated for seven years.

I guess it is time for Kobe to move on, as well.

Probably average 40 ppg in the European Leagues.

1 Quarter=10 mins in Europe. Not enough time for him to average 40.

[oarabbus]

Euroleague vs. Lazeruss...All we need is 3ball and Cavs to come in and this is the ISH showdown we've all been waiting for.

[SpanishACB]

Euroleague vs. Lazeruss...All we need is 3ball and Cavs to come in and this is the ISH showdown we've all been waiting for.

I wonder if there's a way they could only see each other's posts?

[GimmeThat]

having another job outside of playing basketball