What year did Kobe's decline begin?

[Im so nba'd out]

I can't quite put my finger on it.Im asking people for the eye test answer not the nba.com looking @ stats answer

[MavsSuperFan]

2011 imo

[Im so nba'd out]

2011 imo
He was so good in 2012-13 tho thats why its tricky

[MavsSuperFan]

(Turns Filter Off)You can 1 star my threads but your life is a 1 star
:lol did you 1 star your thread for this gimmick?

[Im so nba'd out]

:lol did you 1 star your thread for this gimmick?
I will give this thread a 3 star to raise it to 2 stars to show i dont rate my own threads....o well it raised it to a 3 star

[Quickening]

He was so good in 2012-13 tho thats why its tricky
No he wasn't, he played zero defence.

[lbj4kb8]

Its hard to say due to his high level of play during the 2012-2013 season. There has been a steady decline up to that point. But the second his achilles rupture was the definitely date of his decline.

[CavaliersFTW]

Unlike Lebron Kobe never visibly exited his prime. It is so gradual, the guy is a living breathing legend, still a 25/5/5 player despite playing in his 20th NBA season :bowdown: :applause:

Lebron will likely retire before Kobe at this point, as he went from one of the greatest athletes in the history of the sport to 90's era Larry Bird athleticism in just the span of one off-season.

[Genaro]

As a Laker fan who watch almost every Kobe game I would say 2011 season. He had 2 bad years in 2011 and 2012 although I thought he was coasting in '11 cause Lakers were 2 time champions but when the playoffs came his knees were rotten and he didn't perform at his standards.

In 2013 he had a come back offensively but his defense wasn't the same. I think that is the way the greats go down, they fall a little but they can have a good season even after that.
This season is still young to judge but I think is safe to say that now he is in full decline.

So long answer short, I would say Kobe's prime was from 2001 until 2010.

[Mr. Jabbar]

not sure, too gradual, too classy, too legendary.

i do know lebald visibly exited his prime before our eyes 2 years ago tho

[Hey Yo]

It was after the 2009-10 season where you could clearly see a decline the next 2 seasons.

Then before the 2012-13 season, Kobe made a few trips to Germany for some illegal doping in hopes to get back some of the athleticism and it worked that year, but injuries ensued soon after.

[20Four]

not sure, too gradual, too classy, too legendary.

i do know lebald visibly exited his prime before our eyes 2 years ago tho
http://i.minus.com/ibpX6RcSfRvUay.png

[Doranku]

2011, imo, was just a year of fatigue as he got progressively better in 2012 and then in 2013.

So I'd say his decline began with the Achilles injury, unfortunately.

[tmacattack33]

He went down (2011) and up (2013) and down again (now).

Oh well...he's old...this sh*t happens.

[DMAVS41]

Game 7 2010 NBA finals.

[G0ATbe]

No he wasn't, he played zero defence.
:yaohappy:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2183379/kobereturns.gif
http://33.media.tumblr.com/fb7cda7af67162ff51b05829f44301f8/tumblr_n14euzsAHI1qcmnsoo2_400.gif
It's truly fascinating how little Kobe's decline has affected him in terms of being the best in the NBA. GOAT:applause:

[Cold soul]

For sure 2011 his decline started but his 2012-2013 season was great top five player that season.

[konex]

I don't think he's declined that much. He wouldn't be struggling this much surrounded by better talent. The guy gets ZERO easy shots

[Ramza]

1997

[CavaliersFTW]

1997
Actually that's the year MJ started patterning his game after Kobe

[Cold soul]

I don't think he's declined that much. He wouldn't be struggling this much surrounded by better talent. The guy gets ZERO easy shots


Kobe has declined a lot since his Achilles injury.

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://i.minus.com/ibpX6RcSfRvUay.png

:roll:

[Magic 32]

No he wasn't, he played zero defence.

F*ck defense. 28-5 with streaks like this.

http://s29.postimg.org/hqopz7ad3/rtyurtyu.png

[pauk]

Athletically probably like 2006-2008 somewhere, but as a GOAT level chucker (no pun intended Kobe fans, but you know, he simply likes hoisting shots up right?) his productions/game has essentially not changed..... even now as we speak he has taken the most FGA in the NBA so far.... at 37%.... he doesnt give a damn....

Thats why I think Kobe will average around 25 ppg even as a 100 year old.... as long as he is allowed to take 22-30 FGA, its all good.

[Mr Feeny]

Athletically probably like 2006-2008 somewhere, but as a GOAT level chucker (no pun intended Kobe fans, but you know, he simply likes hoisting shots up right?) his productions/game has essentially not changed..... even now as we speak he has taken the most FGA in the NBA so far.... at 37%.... he doesnt give a damn....

Thats why I think Kobe will average around 25 ppg even as a 100 year old.... as long as he is allowed to take 22-30 FGA, its all good.

Yeah in 2008 there was a noticeable drop off. You could especially see it in the NBA finals against Boston when Pierce outplayed him BADLY in several important stretches (games), most salient game 4 in LA when Pierce lead the 24 point comeback on the Lakers home floor and Kobe looked helpless.

Game 6....from the 8 minute mark of the 1st quarter onwards, Kobe shot 3-17 as the Lakers suffered the second largest loss in the history of the NBA finals. It was just sad.

[Element]

Yeah in 2008 there was a noticeable drop off. You could especially see it in the NBA finals against Boston when Pierce outplayed him BADLY in several important stretches (games), most salient game 4 in LA when Pierce lead the 24 point comeback on the Lakers home floor and Kobe looked helpless.

Game 6....from the 8 minute mark of the 1st quarter onwards, Kobe shot 3-17 as the Lakers suffered the second largest loss in the history of the NBA finals. It was just sad.

Really heartbreaking. So heartbreaking in fact, that his declining ass won back to back titles averaging 30 in both postseasons following that noticeable drop-off:lol

[chazzy]

Technically, 2009. There was a bit of a decline from the previous season, though he played well in the playoffs

[Mr Feeny]

Really heartbreaking. So heartbreaking in fact, that his declining ass won back to back titles averaging 30 in both postseasons following that noticeable drop-off:lol

Gasol is great, isn't he?:lol

[Mr Feeny]

Technically, 2009. There was a bit of a decline from the previous season, though he played well in the playoffs

And yet shot 43%fg against the same magic team that Lebron hung 38.5ppg, 8 app, 8 rpg on 48%fg only a round earlier.
He wasn't all that impressive to be fair.

[chazzy]

And yet shot 43%fg against the same magic team that Lebron hung 38.5ppg, 8 app, 8 rpg on 48%fg only a round earlier.
He wasn't all that impressive to be fair.
Also averaged 32/5/7.4. Played well throughout the playoffs like I said. Why are you obsessed with Lebron

[Nowitness]

04.

[Mr Feeny]

Also averaged 32/5/7.4. Played well throughout the playoffs like I said. Why are you obsessed with Lebron

In other words, no where near the 38.5,8,8 on 48%fg that Lebron put up.
If you are saying that there wasn't a great decline by then, then great. You're admitting that prime Kobe is nowhere near pre-Miami prime lebron :applause:

Thx for playing:applause:

[Mr Feeny]

04.

38%fg which matches his current fg%. Interesting...

[WallIn]

After 2010.

[chazzy]

In other words, no where near the 38.5,8,8 on 48%fg that Lebron put up.
If you are saying that there wasn't a great decline by then, then great. You're admitting that prime Kobe is nowhere near pre-Miami prime lebron :applause:

Thx for playing:applause:
What the hell are you saying? Couple things:

1) Re-read my post. I said his decline started that year.

2) I never mentioned Lebron. How is Kobe not putting up equivalent numbers to peak Lebron's best series indicative of a massive decline? If he shot >2% better would it mean it was an acceptable series for you?

3) 2009 Lebron pre-prime? What the fvck. You are seriously dumb

[Nevaeh]

He went down (2011) and up (2013) and down again (now).

Oh well...he's old...this sh*t happens.

I would agree, if the 2013 season wasn't him just doing a Kevin Love "empty stats" impression, that led absolutely nowhere, even if you are a fan. That 2011 Mavs sweep (Phil Jackson's first ever in the playoffs) was pretty much the end.

[Nash]

Kobe needs to pick his shit up. Maybe ask for a trade, surely a lot of teams would love to have Kobe's salary on their team for some exposure. The same way Duncan's old days have improved his legacy, Kobe should be worried about the opposite.

[SpanishACB]

still a 25/5/5 player

what does this even mean?

aren't there dozens of players like this assuming a similar scenario?

[LAZERUSS]

what does this even mean?

aren't there dozens of players like this assuming a similar scenario?

:facepalm

Absolutely NOT.

GTFO.

[Mr Feeny]

:facepalm

Absolutely NOT.

GTFO.

There are, if the had the same usage rate. "Gtfo"

[Mr Feeny]

What the hell are you saying? Couple things:

1) Re-read my post. I said his decline started that year.

2) I never mentioned Lebron. How is Kobe not putting up equivalent numbers to peak Lebron's best series indicative of a massive decline? If he shot >2% better would it mean it was an acceptable series for you?

3) 2009 Lebron pre-prime? What the fvck. You are seriously dumb

Seriously, just how freakin THICK are you? You trolling or just this stupid? Are all Kobe stans utterly clueless about everything basketball?

[SpanishACB]

:facepalm

Absolutely NOT.

GTFO.

Kobe has taken more contested shots than 13 whole teams in the NBA.

I'm pretty sure there are players out there capable of at least an equal shot selection.

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe has taken more contested shots than 13 whole teams in the NBA.

I'm pretty sure there are players out there capable of at least an equal shot selection.

That is like saying that if you give a player enough shots, he will break Wilt's 100 point record.

The REALITY is, Kobe is on of THREE players in the NBA who is even averaging 25 ppg...much less a 25-5-5.

If other players could do it, then where are they, and why are they not doing it now.

Again...

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

There are, if the had the same usage rate. "Gtfo"

Just a ridiculous post.

If players could easily average a 25-5-5 in today's NBA, why aren't there more than just TWO that are doing it now?

Go ahead and give us a list of players, in NBA HISTORY, who have put up 25-5-5 seasons. I can guarantee you it is not many.

[La Frescobaldi]

That is like saying that if you give a player enough shots, he will break Wilt's 100 point record.

The REALITY is, Kobe is on of THREE players in the NBA who is even averaging 25 ppg...much less a 25-5-5.

If other players could do it, then where are they, and why are they not doing it now.

Again...

:facepalm
There's literally no other player that would be allowed to just fling it at the basket, game after game, like this.

[SpanishACB]

If other players could do it, then where are they, and why are they not doing it now.

Again...

:facepalm

do you really need this question answered?

They're not doing it because it would lower their %FG* and decrease the chances of their team winning.
*because there's only so many times you'll be in a position for a good open shot per game

Just give any player that freedom and have focus on stat padding only and the results would be amazing.

But first please take note of this complex concept: a missed shot means a wasted posesion and the chance for the other team to score. Newsflash

I know this changes your whole way of thinking, you judge players by numbers because you don't know any better, and you even dismiss fg% as if you couldn't understand how it's completely conceptual to the discussion at hand.

Simply put, if you're not an elaborate troll, you're most likely Euroleague, under a completely differnet gimmick yet the same mental handicap.

[LAZERUSS]

do you really need this question answered?

They're not doing it because it would lower their %FG* and decrease the chances of their team winning.
*because there's only so many times you'll be in a position for a good open shot per game

Just give any player that freedom and have focus on stat padding only and the results would be amazing.

But first please take note of this complex concept: a missed shot means a wasted posesion and the chance for the other team to score. Newsflash

I know this changes your whole way of thinking, you judge players by numbers because you don't know any better, and you even dismiss fg% as if you couldn't understand how it's completely conceptual to the discussion at hand.

Simply put, if you're not an elaborate troll, you're most likely Euroleague, under a completely differnet gimmick yet the same mental handicap.

FG% and scoring...often, but not always...TWO different elements.

If FG% automatically resulted in scoring, why doesn't Tyson Chandler take 20-25 FGAs per game? How come the Clippers don't even have ONE set play for DeAndre Jordan and his .703 FG%?

You think that just ANYONE can score 25 ppg? Have you watched how entire TEAMs defend Kobe? Do you see that same defense applied to Brandan Wright when he gets the ball in his hands?

And I guess MJ was killing his team in his last three Finals when he shot .455, .427, and even .415 from the field. And how far do you think the '01 Sixers would have gone without AI?

Sorry, but there have been very few players in NBA history who have put up 25-5-5 seasons, and if you don't know the reason why, then I'm sorry, you haven't watched a game in your life.

[LAZERUSS]

There's literally no other player that would be allowed to just fling it at the basket, game after game, like this.

Having said that...who else would you have taking shots on this Laker team?

[DMAVS41]

Having said that...who else would you have taking shots on this Laker team?

Do you really think this team is best off with Kobe hogging the ball to this extreme?

I'd say that giving like 6 more shots to Lin, Hill, and Young per game would make the Lakers offense a lot better. Although offense isn't really the big problem. It's defense...and the whole Lakers team is awful on that front outside of Ed Davis.

[Mr Feeny]

Just a ridiculous post.

If players could easily average a 25-5-5 in today's NBA, why aren't there more than just TWO that are doing it now?

Go ahead and give us a list of players, in NBA HISTORY, who have put up 25-5-5 seasons. I can guarantee you it is not many.

Ermmm. ...because nobody has as high a usage rate or takes as many shots as Kobe?? Are you trying to be obtuse?

[Rooster]

Just a ridiculous post.

If players could easily average a 25-5-5 in today's NBA, why aren't there more than just TWO that are doing it now?

Go ahead and give us a list of players, in NBA HISTORY, who have put up 25-5-5 seasons. I can guarantee you it is not many.

This.

It's like saying Kobe never pass. Then why the heck he has 1300 more assist then Ray Allen who is more of a willing passer.

[SpanishACB]

Ermmm. ...because nobody has as high a usage rate or takes as many shots as Kobe?? Are you trying to be obtuse?

No. He buys into it legitemely, or acts like it.

It's as if someone from another planet came to earth and you taught him "NBA" withouth teaching him anything about basketball.

Hence the Wilt love above all other players. Wilt has the biggest numbers, period. And everything comes down to numbers. Everything.

[LAZERUSS]

Do you really think this team is best off with Kobe hogging the ball to this extreme?

I'd say that giving like 6 more shots to Lin, Hill, and Young per game would make the Lakers offense a lot better. Although offense isn't really the big problem. It's defense...and the whole Lakers team is awful on that front outside of Ed Davis.

This is an awful team...period.

Look, it's easy to criticize an old Kobe, who is playing with a surgically repaired ankle, and a surgically repaired knee...but how about Kobe near the end of the 2013 season, when he was single-handedly carrying his Lakers down the stretch by playing 48 mpg?

And aside from Wilt, has anyone ever single-handedly carried a worse roster than what Kobe had in '06? Even MJ's mid-80's Bulls had some semblance of NBA talent.

So, would LA be better with Kobe taking less shots? I doubt it. They don't have anyone else on their roster, other than maybe Nick Young, who is a loose cannon, who can get their own shot.

But we do KNOW that a PRIME Kobe was the BEST player on the floor in the majority of the Spurs-Lakers battles in the 00's (including '08) and even in series in which Duncan, Robinson, and Shaq were playing in.

Shaq probably doesn't win a ring in '00 without Kobe, and he certainly wouldn't have without him in '01 and '02.

So, yes, I am getting a little sick-and-tired of the abuse that a 36 year shell is receiving here.

This year's Lakers team is probably going to win 20 games, and they likely would win even less without Kobe. So what?

[GimmeThat]

every year a new none-Lakers join

[DMAVS41]

This is an awful team...period.

Look, it's easy to criticize an old Kobe, who is playing with a surgically repaired ankle, and a surgically repaired knee...but how about Kobe near the end of the 2013 season, when he was single-handedly carrying his Lakers down the stretch by playing 48 mpg?

And aside from Wilt, has anyone ever single-handedly carried a worse roster than what Kobe had in '06? Even MJ's mid-80's Bulls had some semblance of NBA talent.

So, would LA be better with Kobe taking less shots? I doubt it. They don't have anyone else on their roster, other than maybe Nick Young, who is a loose cannon, who can get their own shot.

But we do KNOW that a PRIME Kobe was the BEST player on the floor in the majority of the Spurs-Lakers battles in the 00's (including '08) and even in series in which Duncan, Robinson, and Shaq were playing in.

Shaq probably doesn't win a ring in '00 without Kobe, and he certainly wouldn't have without him in '01 and '02.

So, yes, I am getting a little sick-and-tired of the abuse that a 36 year shell is receiving here.

This year's Lakers team is probably going to win 20 games, and they likely would win even less without Kobe. So what?

But Kobe's style makes it harder on himself than it has to be.

And single handedly? He had Howard and Gasol...a Howard still playing really good defense and giving you something like 17/12/2 iirc. I don't think it's fair to act like that was a one man team. I know they had injuries and everything, but Kobe's "me against the world style" causes a lot of problems for himself.

And also, this Lakers team is really not "that bad"...this is the annoyance many non Kobe fans feel.

This current Lakers squad just isn't much different than the 13 Mavs, for example.

Granted I think the Mavs had better players, but not by much. And that Mavs team won 41 games.

So...you see my point. When it comes to Kobe...it's always somebody else at fault.

Old or not. Kobe is playing like one of the worst players in the league so far. He's been truly terrible on both ends and late in games has easily been the worst player in the league with any real role. Which is crazy because he looks good in terms of a bounce to his step and he doesn't look that tired out there. It's just his unwillingness to stop taking some of the worst shots in basketball. Contested mid range jumpers, unless you are Dirk, are the worst ****ing shot in the game and he takes them at an alarming rate. He also takes contested 3's a lot...another horrid shot.

The harsh truth is that if Kobe didn't get a lot of superstar calls still...or play with these joke rules on the perimeter for defense....he'd be significantly worse because he's only being kept alive by getting to the ft line over 8 times a game. I mean...he's 2nd in the league in ft attempts so far. Which is hilarious.

Are there reasons for a 36 year old coming off injuries doing that? Sure, but it's pronounced with Kobe because nobody else is going to have a 36% usage rate and play that many minutes and be that big of a ball hog when they are so incapable of making a positive impact on a team...nobody is doing that.

It's just also really funny to see all the Kobe fans go so hard on MJ for his play on the Wizards...when MJ was both older and clearly more broken down...and now Kobe is playing in this soft defensive era, getting to the line like he's in the heart of his prime...and his scoring efficiency is just dreadful. Priceless...to be honest.

And to answer your question about 25/5/5...uh yea...given these defensive rules on the perimeter...if you gave wing players a 36% usage rate on bad teams for 35 minutes a game. Plenty of guys could do that...they just wouldn't because they would either stop shooting or a coach would tell them to stop if they were playing the kind of offense and defense Kobe is so far.

[La Frescobaldi]

This is an awful team...period.

Look, it's easy to criticize an old Kobe, who is playing with a surgically repaired ankle, and a surgically repaired knee...but how about Kobe near the end of the 2013 season, when he was single-handedly carrying his Lakers down the stretch by playing 48 mpg?

And aside from Wilt, has anyone ever single-handedly carried a worse roster than what Kobe had in '06? Even MJ's mid-80's Bulls had some semblance of NBA talent.

So, would LA be better with Kobe taking less shots? I doubt it. They don't have anyone else on their roster, other than maybe Nick Young, who is a loose cannon, who can get their own shot.


But we do KNOW that a PRIME Kobe was the BEST player on the floor in the majority of the Spurs-Lakers battles in the 00's (including '08) and even in series in which Duncan, Robinson, and Shaq were playing in.

Shaq probably doesn't win a ring in '00 without Kobe, and he certainly wouldn't have without him in '01 and '02.

So, yes, I am getting a little sick-and-tired of the abuse that a 36 year shell is receiving here.

This year's Lakers team is probably going to win 20 games, and they likely would win even less without Kobe. So what?

Just for one thing, tons of players have dragged their lousy team to a first round exit like 2006. Why is that anything?

I'm sprinting away from this post, and your whole defense of any part of post- P Jax Kobe Bryant.

[PsychoBe]

so many hypotheticals :facepalm

either it has happened, or it hasn't. there is no "ifs" about this scenario.

sorry but evan turner was given free reign during his sixers years and didn't come close. demar derozan was before he went down and barely even made it. no other 2-guard within the past 15 years has done what kobe has. he's by and large the greatest shooting guard of this generation and the numbers show. he's the best player on the lakers and no other player not named nick young can even get their shot off consistently like he can.

why don't we all demand that tyson chandler shoot 20+ fga a game and let's see what happens. where is the outrage about that? :oldlol:

you can't have your cake and eat it too. either kobe is the only player that can consistently get his shot off, or not. there is no middle ground.

[DMAVS41]

so many hypotheticals :facepalm

either it has happened, or it hasn't. there is no "ifs" about this scenario.

sorry but evan turner was given free reign during his sixers years and didn't come close. demar derozan was before he went down and barely even made it. no other 2-guard within the past 15 years has done what kobe has. he's by and large the greatest shooting guard of this generation and the numbers show. he's the best player on the lakers and no other player not named nick young can even get their shot off consistently like he can.

why don't we all demand that tyson chandler shoot 20+ fga a game and let's see what happens. where is the outrage about that? :oldlol:

you can't have your cake and eat it too. either kobe is the only player that can consistently get his shot off, or not. there is no middle ground.

What?

Even if Kobe is the only guy in the league capable of shooting this much consistently...it doesn't make it the right thing to do.

You are completely confusing yourself.

So even if one were to concede what you just said...it doesn't mean anything.

[IllegalD]

It's no coincidence that it's always fa*got Spurs or Mavs fans that are sh*tting on Kobe.

This DMAVs guy posts more about Kobe than he does about Dirk or his own team.

How pathetic is that?

That type of behavior would seem to indicate extreme butt-hurtage knowing that deep down inside Dirk is nowhere close to Kobe's level.

[Shih508]

This is an awful team...period.

Look, it's easy to criticize an old Kobe, who is playing with a surgically repaired ankle, and a surgically repaired knee...but how about Kobe near the end of the 2013 season, when he was single-handedly carrying his Lakers down the stretch by playing 48 mpg?

And aside from Wilt, has anyone ever single-handedly carried a worse roster than what Kobe had in '06? Even MJ's mid-80's Bulls had some semblance of NBA talent.

So, would LA be better with Kobe taking less shots? I doubt it. They don't have anyone else on their roster, other than maybe Nick Young, who is a loose cannon, who can get their own shot.

But we do KNOW that a PRIME Kobe was the BEST player on the floor in the majority of the Spurs-Lakers battles in the 00's (including '08) and even in series in which Duncan, Robinson, and Shaq were playing in.

Shaq probably doesn't win a ring in '00 without Kobe, and he certainly wouldn't have without him in '01 and '02.

So, yes, I am getting a little sick-and-tired of the abuse that a 36 year shell is receiving here.

This year's Lakers team is probably going to win 20 games, and they likely would win even less without Kobe. So what?

U are just a kobe stan. You know nothing about what u are talking about.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There's literally no other player that would be allowed to just fling it at the basket, game after game, like this.

http://i.imgur.com/eLU9I.png

[DMAVS41]

http://i.imgur.com/eLU9I.png

False comparison.

MJ had less offensive help...and his team was actually winning games...it was working.

Also...

Wizards with MJ on the court...+.1 points per 100 with a positive 3.1 on/off
Lakers with Kobe on the court...-12.7 points per 100 with a negative 20.5 on/off

False comparison. One was winning and making his team better. The other is dragging his team further and further down every time he steps on the court.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

False comparison.

MJ had less offensive help...and his team was actually winning games...it was working.

Also...

Wizards with MJ on the court...+.1 points per 100 with a positive 3.1 on/off
Lakers with Kobe on the court...-12.7 points per 100 with a negative 20.5 on/off

False comparison. One was winning and making his team better. The other is dragging his team further and further down every time he steps on the court.

The argument was no player had carte blanche to chuck like this.

That's false as evident by Jordan's usage percentage and TS% in 2002. :confusedshrug:

[PsychoBe]

What?

Even if Kobe is the only guy in the league capable of shooting this much consistently...it doesn't make it the right thing to do.

You are completely confusing yourself.

So even if one were to concede what you just said...it doesn't mean anything.

so is the right thing to do is take the bran route and score 8 points in the finals? or the mvp dirk route and get bounced in the first round? or the mcgrady route and get outplayed by baron davis?

like i said, you can't have your cake and eat it too. kobe's style of play is obviously the right thing to do because he has more rings than dirk, iverson, mcgrady, shaq, carter, and bran. more points than all of them, and more assists than all of them.

[Mr Feeny]

so is the right thing to do is take the bran route and score 8 points in the finals? or the mvp dirk route and get bounced in the first round? or the mcgrady route and get outplayed by baron davis?

like i said, you can't have your cake and eat it too. kobe's style of play is obviously the right thing to do because he has more rings than dirk, iverson, mcgrady, shaq, carter, and bran. more points than all of them, and more assists than all of them.

Solid logic. Horry is better player than Kobe in that case.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Solid logic. Horry is better player than Kobe in that case.

Do people suggest Horry should have played differently? :confusedshrug:

[Mr Feeny]

Do people suggest Horry should have played differently? :confusedshrug:

Spoken like an utterly clueless chap. Why am I not surprised :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Spoken like an utterly clueless chap. Why am I not surprised :applause:

It's a simple question.

Does people question Horry's style of play or do they give him the benefit of the doubt for being on multiple championship winning teams?

[Mr Feeny]

It's a simple question.

Does people question Horry's style of play or do they give him the benefit of the doubt for being on multiple championship winning teams?

No. Ur logic is flawless here as always. Really telling of your I.Q. People are supposed to give players the benefit of the doubt when they have won more? Maybe go with that route and take their style of play since they have been successful, right?

Well Horry has been more successful than Kobe. And using your logic, Kobe should adopt Horry ' s style of play and take no more than 12 shots a game and focus on a higher percentage because that style of play lead to 7 rings, higher than Kobe's measly 5 in comparison.

You, sir, are a genius:applause: Terrific basketball arguments being made here:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No. Ur logic is flawless here as always. Really telling of your I.Q. People are supposed to give players the benefit of the doubt when they have won more? Maybe go with that route and take their style of play since they have been successful, right?

Well Horry has been more successful than Kobe. And using your logic, Kobe should adopt Horry ' s style of play and take no more than 12 shots a game and focus on a higher percentage because that style of play lead to 7 rings, higher than Kobe's measly 5 in comparison.

You, sir, are a genius:applause: Terrific basketball arguments being made here:applause:

But he is. He is playing exactly like Wizards Jordan. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

The argument was no player had carte blanche to chuck like this.

That's false as evident by Jordan's usage percentage and TS% in 2002. :confusedshrug:

And part of chucking like that is winning games. Is it not? I mean...it's obviously worse to chuck like Kobe is when he's killing the team the way he is and they are not winning.

MJ's chucking helped the team and led to wins.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And part of chucking like that is winning games. Is it not? I mean...it's obviously worse to chuck like Kobe is when he's killing the team the way he is and they are not winning.

MJ's chucking helped the team and led to wins.

:confusedshrug:

For one month of the season you mean :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

For one month of the season you mean :confusedshrug:

Well sure...all we have to compare so far is what Kobe has done. If it changes...it changes.

:confusedshrug:

Oh...I see what you mean. Well...no. The Wizards were 30-30 in the games MJ played. That is what I'm talking about.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well sure...all we have to compare so far is what Kobe has done. If it changes...it changes.

:confusedshrug:

Oh...I see what you mean. Well...no. The Wizards were 30-30 in the games MJ played. That is what I'm talking about.

So instead of being chucktastically inneficient like MJ leading to lotto balls he Is being chucktastically innifiecient and leading to even more lotto balls. :confusedshrug:

[guy]

I don't think he's declined that much. He wouldn't be struggling this much surrounded by better talent. The guy gets ZERO easy shots

Wow so what are you saying? Kobe has always sucked? :oldlol:

There gets a point when you're shooting this bad that you can't just blame it on his teammates.

[DMAVS41]

So instead of being chucktastically inneficient like MJ leading to lotto balls he Is being chucktastically innifiecient and leading to even more lotto balls. :confusedshrug:

Yes. This is a factual statement so far.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yes. This is a factual statement so far.

So whats the problem?

14 Jordan and 02 Jordan have more in common than 99% of the comparisons done on this board.

They have the exact same usage percentage.
They have similar TS% (though Kobe is more efficient)
Neither led their team to winning records.

[guy]

Jordan didn't lead them to a losing record either (30-30). He led them to .500, which Kobe hasn't led the Lakers even close to.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan didn't lead them to a losing record either (30-30). He led them to .500, which Kobe hasn't led the Lakers even close to.

5-5 in the last 10 games :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Jordan didn't lead them to a losing record either (30-30). He led them to .500, which Kobe hasn't led the Lakers even close to.

The wiz played in a East where 50 wins could get you the first seed while Kobe plays in a West where you may not make the playoffs at 50 wins.

Lakers had the hardest srs through their first 9 or 10 games and they were missing their second best offensive player in nick young.. And not surprisingly that's where they lost the biggest chunk of games.

You put wiz mj on this Lakers team this year and there's no chance they don't have a losing record given the circumstances and competition.

[guy]

The wiz played in a East where 50 wins could get you the first seed while Kobe plays in a West where you may not make the playoffs at 50 wins.

Lakers had the hardest srs through their first 9 or 10 games and they were missing their second best offensive player in nick young.. And not surprisingly that's where they lost the biggest chunk of games.

You put wiz mj on this Lakers team this year and there's no chance they don't have a losing record given the circumstances and competition.

They're 5 games under .500. They're on pace to be 16 games under .500 by the end of the season. Take into account their harder schedule, lets say they are 11 games under .500 instead then. Sure, the 2014 West is easily a greater conference then the 2002 East. Its not 11 games better. That would be an extreme exaggeration.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Technically, 2009. There was a bit of a decline from the previous season, though he played well in the playoffs
This ... and it was progressive drop off every season there after. The athleticism seemed to take the most noticeable dip from 2008 to 2009. People referencing 2013 need to understand he played absolutely no defense. It was an outlier. The 2008 season was the end of Kobe's prime.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

And yet shot 43%fg against the same magic team that Lebron hung 38.5ppg, 8 app, 8 rpg on 48%fg only a round earlier.
He wasn't all that impressive to be fair.

Yeah 33/7 against the #1 defense ain't shit for real

To answer the topic, Kobe's athletic decline happened noticeably in 2011. He only played 33 MPG that year and really struggled to play through injuries unlike how he usually does. He was having to work a lot harder for his shots especially towards the end of the season when he had one of his worst stretches.

He hasn't declined as far as skills though, obviously, except for his ballhandling. That got messed up back in 2010 when he f*cked up his fingers. I get scared every time he dribbles into traffic now.

[DMAVS41]

So whats the problem?

14 Jordan and 02 Jordan have more in common than 99% of the comparisons done on this board.

They have the exact same usage percentage.
They have similar TS% (though Kobe is more efficient)
Neither led their team to winning records.

Well, you are being really broad for an agenda.

Look closely and you see the huge difference. One team had a .500 record...the other has a .308 record.

One had a positive impact on the team on the court...the other...well, not so much.

Your entire point about Jordan chucking ignores that it was actually improving the team. Both in terms of win/loss...and on the court in terms of point differential.

So I'd say it's a silly comparison because one was working (yes...turning a 19 win team into a .500 team is a huge turnaround) and the other is not working at all.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

This ... and it was progressive drop off every season there after. The athleticism seemed to take the most noticeable dip from 2008 to 2009. People referencing 2013 need to understand he played absolutely no defense. It was an outlier. The 2008 season was the end of Kobe's prime.

Nah he was still pretty athletic in 2009. He didn't have as many memorable slams but he could still play somewhat above the rim. He was still able to beat guys off the dribble completely.

2010 was the end of his prime really. I'd say his prime was from like 2003 - 2010 with his peak years being 2006-2008 when he was undoubtedly the best in the league.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Wow so what are you saying? Kobe has always sucked? :oldlol:

There gets a point when you're shooting this bad that you can't just blame it on his teammates.

Of course not all of it is but it definitely plays a part. Scott runs a playground offense and Kobe has to work a lot harder than he should have to for his shots.

The spacing isn't as bad as say 2012 when Kobe was practically the sole ball handler and best 3PT shooter (even at only 30%) on his team but this squad is just a hodgepodge of dudes who are complimentary players at best.

[guy]

Of course not all of it is but it definitely plays a part. Scott runs a playground offense and Kobe has to work a lot harder than he should have to for his shots.

The spacing isn't as bad as say 2012 when Kobe was practically the sole ball handler and best 3PT shooter (even at only 30%) on his team but this squad is just a hodgepodge of dudes who are complimentary players at best.

Put him on a good team, and its like 42% AT BEST assuming he's taking the same amount of shots i.e. still pretty inefficient. And that's being generous I can't think of a volume shooting wing player who's FG% just shot up (or down) like 6%-7%based on their situation changing. Even Kobe's FG% barely changed that much from when he was with Shaq vs 05-07 vs when he was with Gasol.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well, you are being really broad for an agenda.

Look closely and you see the huge difference. One team had a .500 record...the other has a .308 record.

One had a positive impact on the team on the court...the other...well, not so much.

Your entire point about Jordan chucking ignores that it was actually improving the team. Both in terms of win/loss...and on the court in terms of point differential.

So I'd say it's a silly comparison because one was working (yes...turning a 19 win team into a .500 team is a huge turnaround) and the other is not working at all.

I did look closely remember

His "positive impact" was limited to the single month of December and it can be mostly attributed to improved team defense and a weak stretch of the schedule.

Frankly with that kind of variance month to month its pretty silly to put any credence in it as an all knowing "positive impact" tool.

http://i.imgur.com/2XifIsH.png

[chazzy]

Seriously, just how freakin THICK are you? You trolling or just this stupid? Are all Kobe stans utterly clueless about everything basketball?
You're the moron thinks 09 Lebron is pre-prime.. seriously WTF are you coming at me for after saying shit like that? And Kobe not matching Lebron's greatest series ever is indicative of a massive decline? gtfo

[Mr Feeny]

You're the moron thinks 09 Lebron is pre-prime.. seriously WTF are you coming at me for after saying shit like that? And Kobe not matching Lebron's greatest series ever is indicative of a massive decline? gtfo

You must be the thickest bellend on here to think that 2009 Lebron is better than the 2012-2013 one who was shooting 54-56 percent and who had one historic Playoff and finals performance after another.
Get back to Kobe's jock. PRIME Kobe in the middle of his his two rings as lead dog couldn't get CLOSE to pre-Miami Lebron.

38.5, 8, 8 on 48%fg
Vs
34, 7, 4 on 43%fg

Cry me a river, and enjoy seeing your chucker tarnish his legacy.
Next.

[Mr Feeny]

5-5 in the last 10 games :confusedshrug:

Here's another idiot. Why are you mentioning the last ten games specifically? A near 40 year old MJ led his team to a 0.500 record. Current Kobe is in the process of leading them to a sub 30 win season.

Next

[chazzy]

You must be the thickest bellend on here to think that 2009 Lebron is better than the 2012-2013 one who was shooting 54-56 percent and who had one historic Playoff and finals performance after another.
Get back to Kobe's jock. PRIME Kobe in the middle of his his two rings as lead dog couldn't get CLOSE to pre-Miami Lebron.

38.5, 8, 8 on 48%fg
Vs
34, 7, 4 on 43%fg

Cry me a river, and enjoy seeing your chucker tarnish his legacy.
Next.
First off, why did you make this about Lebron? All I said was that Kobe's 09 season was the beginning of his decline. No one would argue he was better than 08 that year. And then you come here, "bellend" in hand, stroking something suspect about your boy and while referencing thickness continuously.

It's reasonable to debate that 2012, and to a much lesser extent, 2013 Lebron was his peak. But to pretend that 2009 Lebron was pre-prime? That's ridiculous even for a new player fan like yourself. At least know the history of the player you stan for. Compare those ECF stats to any Miami series and argue with yourself about who's better, because going by your logic, Miami Bron isn't CLOSE to 09 Bron.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Production, and physical capability wise ... 2009, and 2010 LeBron are the best we'll ever see. I think the start of LeBron's prime was in the 2008 season.

It's arguable 2009, and 2010 could actually be his peak. From an individual perspective it was the most frightening he ever was as a player. Which is ultimately how I judge what a peak is for a player.

LeBron's 2009 regular season was great, his playoffs were greater.
LeBron's 2010 regular season was great, his playoffs were good (quit)
LeBron's 2011 regular season was good, his playoffs were good (quit)
LeBron's 2012 regular season was good, his playoffs were great
LeBron's 2013 regular season was good, his playoffs were okay.
LeBron's 2014 regular season was good, his playoffs were okay.

2009 actually may be his greatest individual season when you combine his play in regular and post season.

As for Kobe, his prime was from 2001 - 2008. Peak being arguably 2003, or 2006. Along with 2007, those were the years he was definitely most frightening as a player.