Lebron's teams susceptible in way that Bird, Jordan's and others never were

[3ball]

when bird and jordan's teams were making the NBA Finals, their teams played the most STRATEGICALLY optimal basketball of any team in the league - there was no spurs or mavs team out there that was going to surprise in the Finals and show everyone that they played a better brand of basketball.. bird and jordan's teams WERE those teams employing the best strategy and brand of of basketball - they WERE the spurs or the mavs or whoever had the strategic edge on the league.

this is not the case for lebron... regardless of whether he has the talent on his team or not, it is EASILY possible that another team or several teams are playing a more optimal, strategically-better brand of basketball than lebron and his team is - accordingly, his teams are susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by whoever IS employing the best strategy... meanwhile, Bird and Jordan's teams were never susceptible because their teams WERE THE VERY TEAMS employing the best strategy.

Lebron's game is not as optimal as Bird or Jordan's - he dominates the ball like Magic but gets half the assists - it's just super suboptimal... so expect MORE disappointments in the Finals... since the nature of lebron's game is not strategically optimal, it's not surprising that many of his teams don't employ the best available strategy, and instead get surprised in the Finals by a team that DOES employ the best strategy.

[Heavincent]

Sounds more like a case of Bran getting free rides to the Finals because of a shitty conference.

[russwest0]

Sounds more like a case of Bran getting free rides to the Finals because of a shitty conference.

pretty much.

you even look at the first year they won the title, the pacers and celtics got heavily hit with foul trouble, technicals, and fines and both teams could have easily beaten miami with fair officiating.

crazy to think about a team as loaded as miami losing in round 2, but they should have been down 0-2 vs the pacers with fair officiating and would have lost to the celtics in 5 games without an obviously rigged game 2...

[iamgine]

he dominates the ball like Magic but gets half the assists
So did MJ and everyone else :biggums:

[russwest0]

So did MJ and everyone else :biggums:

Not necessarily true. MJ just did whatever the best play was in a winning context. If that means he has to win his first finals series averaging 11 assists per game then thats what he did. Or if that means he has to average 41 PPG with just 6APG to win his 3rd finals then he did that.

Then again MJ was so good he could basically just do whatever the hell he wanted out there and still dominate. Bran on the other hand forces things way too much.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Sounds more like a case of Bran getting free rides to the Finals because of a shitty conference.

:lol this

[SavageMode]

TL;DR
Kobe stans having meltdown cuz Kobe is being exposed.

[Heavincent]

pretty much.

you even look at the first year they won the title, the pacers and celtics got heavily hit with foul trouble, technicals, and fines and both teams could have easily beaten miami with fair officiating.

crazy to think about a team as loaded as miami losing in round 2, but they should have been down 0-2 vs the pacers with fair officiating and would have lost to the celtics in 5 games without an obviously rigged game 2...

Not to mention the first round bye he gets every year playing in the East. Hell, sometimes even a second round bye.

It's just so much different out West. The reward for being a 1 seed in the West might be a first round matchup against prime Westbrook and Durant. Congrats :lol

[Kvnzhangyay]

oddly enough though,

the offense is not the problem at all for the Cavs

its the defense

Even in the finals last year, its not that the Heat offense was terrible (it was ok), its just that they had absolutely no way to defend the Spurs' brilliant system

so, other than how Lebron is basically coasting on defense and not even trying, does that mean Lebronball impacts defense also?

[russwest0]

so, other than how Lebron is basically coasting on defense and not even trying, does that mean Lebronball impacts defense also?

:oldlol: still hilarious to me how guys like Harden and Melo get shit on for lazy defense to no end, yet LeBron does it and it's just thrown into questions like "how does Lebronball impact defense also?" like it's no big deal

[Kvnzhangyay]

:oldlol: still hilarious to me how guys like Harden and Melo get shit on for lazy defense to no end, yet LeBron does it and it's just thrown into questions like "how does Lebronball impact defense also?" like it's no big deal

They are criticized because they don't win because of it. Thats why you don't see Harden getting criticized this year for it, while Melo does (to a less extent cuz his team sucks shit this year)

[Budadiiii]

They are criticized because they don't win because of it. Thats why you don't see Harden getting criticized this year for it, while Melo does (to a less extent cuz his team sucks shit this year)
LeBron has been on the most talented team in the league for 5 straight years now.

Anyone is winning with the roster that has been around him, you trolling pest

[Kvnzhangyay]

LeBron has been on the most talented team in the league for 5 straight years now.

Anyone is winning with the roster that has been around him, you trolling pest

so Lebron DOES get criticized, unlike what russwes tried to argue

[JohnMax]

Kobe is also flawed.

Lakers should've easily beaten the 2008 Celtics. Lakers had double digit leads despite Kobe taking 22 shots per game and shooting 40%.

[Budadiiii]

so Lebron DOES get criticized, unlike what russwes tried to argue
No, ESPN doesn't talk about HIS defense, it's everyone around him. :rolleyes:

He doesn't get criticized on those major media outlets and so sheep like you don't know that LeBron isn't a great player. He is good but not great.

Durant and Davis are great, LeBron is good.

[Kvnzhangyay]

No, ESPN doesn't talk about HIS defense, it's everyone around him. :rolleyes:

He doesn't get criticized on those major media outlets and so sheep like you don't know that LeBron isn't a great player. He is good but not great.

Durant and Davis are great, LeBron is good.

How do you define good or great?

[Budadiiii]

How do you define good or great?
Being able to consistently dominate.

KD is great, LeBron is good. He can no longer be great every night.

Pretty fair.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Being able to consistently dominate.

KD is great, LeBron is good. He can no longer be great every night.

Pretty fair.

Oh, so your talking about now? Then yeah, Lebron's just good- he's far under performing compared to what we've been used to out of him

But then again, at the same time, KD hasn't played much, so he's a question mark. AD's def great though

[3ball]

Not necessarily true. MJ just did whatever the best play was in a winning context. If that means he has to win his first finals series averaging 11 assists per game then thats what he did. Or if that means he has to average 41 PPG with just 6APG to win his 3rd finals then he did that.


exactly - jordan had enough game to never play into the defense's hands.

[3ball]

the offense is not the problem at all for the Cavs

its the defense

Even in the finals last year, its not that the Heat offense was terrible (it was ok), its just that they had absolutely no way to defend the Spurs' brilliant system

so, other than how Lebron is basically coasting on defense and not even trying, does that mean Lebronball impacts defense also?


you bet your ass - a big part of defense is effort - the Heat gave up on defending the Spurs in that series... they decided the physical outlay wasn't worth their energy.

one way to look at this is the following: the Heat figured the Spurs offense was too good and couldn't be stopped, so it wasn't worth the effort.

but what if the Heat's offense had the capability to keep up with the Spurs offense?... wouldn't that make it worth the defensive effort?... wouldn't the Heat players be willing to keep playing defense if they knew their offense was going to be able to keep up?

i would think so, which means apparently, the Heat players must have known their offense couldn't keep up, otherwise they would have felt the defensive effort was worth it..

is there any circumstance where the Heat players felt their offense COULD keep up, but still decided to give up on defense?

[Prometheus]

Lebron's game is not as optimal as Bird or Jordan's - he dominates the ball like Magic but gets half the assists

Look man, LeBron has enough flaws. You have tons of ammo without lying: terrible shooting in series losses in '07 and '08, losing with home court certain years, the legendary 2011 Finals where no one could perform the Heimlich in time, the near-collapse and Ray Allen legacy-saver, the worst beat-down in Finals history last season...

And you can point out his weaknesses without lying: his slower first step, his left-legged finishes and their predictable rhythm, his premature athletic decline, his propensity to turn the ball over, his lack of consistent aggression, his defensive laziness, his inconsistent mid range game...

just stick to the facts - making fun of LeBron is easy. I don't understand why you feel the need to flat-out lie.

[aj1987]

3ball with another LeBron thread. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Look man, LeBron has enough flaws. You have tons of ammo without lying: terrible shooting in series losses in '07 and '08, losing with home court certain years, the legendary 2011 Finals where no one could perform the Heimlich in time, the near-collapse and Ray Allen legacy-saver, the worst beat-down in Finals history last season...

And you can point out his weaknesses without lying: his slower first step, his left-legged finishes and their predictable rhythm, his premature athletic decline, his propensity to turn the ball over, his lack of consistent aggression, his defensive laziness, his inconsistent mid range game...

just stick to the facts - making fun of LeBron is easy. I don't understand why you feel the need to flat-out lie.


we can agree to disagree on the degree of lebron's ball-domination - i'm going with the stats (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) showing that lebron dominates the ball more than stephen curry, goran dragic, kyrie irving, tyreke evans, trey burke and eric bledsoe (using your methodology of time of poss/playing time).... and you are going with.. uh... that westbrook still dominates it more?.. i forget what your argument was.

so no one is lying - lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards.. why is that hard to accept?... we've known for lebron's entire career that he plays point guard and is a massive ball-dominator - to argue against such common knowledge is a disingenuous troll-like thing to do.

but anyhow, the issue brought up in the OP, is that unlike Bird and Jordan whose teams were always on the cutting edge of strategy, team cohesion, focus and optimal play, Lebron's teams rarely are and accordingly, they are always susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by a team that IS employing the optimal strategy and brand of basketball (i.e. mavs, spurs).

[AirFederer]

As an MJ "stan" I'll still have to point to the fact that Bron has won two rings and that Heat had injuries last year. Bron is a different player than Mike, but great nonetheless.

[3ball]

As an MJ "stan" I'll still have to point to the fact that Bron has won two rings and that Heat had injuries last year. Bron is a different player than Mike, but great nonetheless.
what injuries?... did one of their guys go down in the playoffs like the thunder?

greatness doesn't need you to make excuses for it... rather than make excuses for supposed "greatness", i'll point to facts: 2/5, team-hopping to get the most stacked team, rayray's legacy-saver, lebron's underachievement in high school losing as the favorite and again from 2009-2011 and 2014...

oh, and lebron's massive disadvantage compared to the top all-time greats, which is the inherent susceptibility of all his teams described in the OP - here are CLIFFS: unlike Bird and Jordan whose teams were always on the cutting edge of strategy and optimal play, Lebron's teams rarely are and accordingly, they are always susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by a team that IS employing the optimal strategy and brand of basketball (i.e. like the mavs or spurs... or bird's celtics, jordan's bulls).
.

[Nash]

So wait a second, is 2/5 really a thing people actually criticize? In what world is getting to the finals 5 times actually a bad thing outside of mentally ill ISH? And team hopping? High school, criticizing Lebron's high school career, really? :lol Ray Allen legacy saver? So guys like Horry, Kerr and the rest have never made mega clutch shots?
Your points or so feckin' lame, using this weak reasoning I could literally murder any career.

Honestly bro, you're just proving how great Lebron actually is when you're mentioning things like that. Thank you for daily proving to me what an amazing career Lebron is having.

[Nuff Said]

Is LeBron also supposed to be the coach?

[ArbitraryWater]

Wait, so people say he makes the finals because of the weak east, and even as best player, he is undermatched in the finals? well thanks for admitting he has a weaker supporting cast in the finals than the west team....

So if you keep that logic up, then you gotta stop with the 2/5 since you say the west is so much stronger and LeBron didn't make the finals because his team was as good as the west teams were, but because he played in the east.

[pauk]

Read the first part of your post and couldnt believe seeing you post something rational & unprejudiced, couldnt believe i was just about to agree with you..... but then i kept reading and there it is... the obligatory Lebron insecurity showcase....

[JellyBean]

Sounds to me like people are making excuses for LeBron when he fails at anything.

[sdot_thadon]

Now let's hear about the time Mj or Bird completed a playoff run with their 2nd and 3rd options either gimpy or injured and still ended with the title.....I'll wait. Btw these threads are ridiculous af.

[Pointguard]

when bird and jordan's teams were making the NBA Finals, their teams played the most STRATEGICALLY optimal basketball of any team in the league - there was no spurs or mavs team out there that was going to surprise in the Finals and show everyone that they played a better brand of basketball.. bird and jordan's teams WERE those teams employing the best strategy and brand of of basketball - they WERE the spurs or the mavs or whoever had the strategic edge on the league.

this is not the case for lebron... regardless of whether he has the talent on his team or not, it is EASILY possible that another team or several teams are playing a more optimal, strategically-better brand of basketball than lebron and his team is - accordingly, his teams are susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by whoever IS employing the best strategy... meanwhile, Bird and Jordan's teams were never susceptible because their teams WERE THE VERY TEAMS employing the best strategy.

Lebron's game is not as optimal as Bird or Jordan's - he dominates the ball like Magic but gets half the assists - it's just super suboptimal... so expect MORE disappointments in the Finals... since the nature of lebron's game is not strategically optimal, it's not surprising that many of his teams don't employ the best available strategy, and instead get surprised in the Finals by a team that DOES employ the best strategy.

Strategically optimal basketball is up to the coach - not the player(s). Spo never ran great offensive sets. Most of the best plays were when Wade timed a perfect cut. The triangle is perhaps the best strategical optimal play for two stars. Spo is not a great X and O's type of player nor one to employ double cuts and such. Jason Kidd and Magic Johnson could maximize freestyling, at a level above others but few really have that ability.

Lebron was smart in wanting a coach that employs a lot of cuts, rotations, and back door plays. Once the team gets it down pack, he should see the optimal all around player Lebron is. They still should face problems once there because defense is still a factor. But the strategy is up to the coach. Lebron did mess up in 2011. No way around that. And he didn't press to go all out this past year when it was still possible to break SA building momentum.

[3ball]

Now let's hear about the time Mj or Bird completed a playoff run with their 2nd and 3rd options either gimpy or injured and still ended with the title.....I'll wait. Btw these threads are ridiculous af.


jordan won in 1998 with scottie gimpy - his back was injured and he only averaged 15ppg on 41% shooting in the 1998 Finals, which is worse than Wade in the 2014 Finals.

Rodman was MIA in the 1998 Finals as well, only averaging 3.2ppg and 8.3 rebs..... and in the 1997 Finals Rodman was even worse, only averaging 2.2 ppg and 7.7 rebounds.

No problem for Jordan - he adjusted by taking 27 shots per game in the 1998 Finals... he ended up scoring 38% of his team's points, which is a record of course.

[3ball]

Strategically optimal basketball is up to the coach - not the player(s). Spo never ran great offensive sets.


in order to defend your guy, you have to be subjective and inject your opinion about whose responsibility it is to play optimally, and how good YOU think Spo's sets are.

otoh, the OP was not subjective - it stated objective fact - unlike Bird and Jordan whose teams were always on the cutting edge of strategy and optimal play, Lebron's teams rarely are and accordingly, they are always susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by a team that IS employing the optimal strategy and a superior brand of basketball (i.e. like the mavs or spurs... or bird's celtics and jordan's bulls).

[Tking714]

That's everything to do with the coaching. I swear some of you think Lebron is also in the GM's office hiring personnel and handling contracts.

[Papaya Petee]

I couldn't believe what a load of crap I read, then I realized it's 3ball and everything made sense.

[triangleoffense]

There's arguably more systems out there now than in previous years.. it's just that a lot of scouting/effort is also put into athleticism since 1 player can honestly make or break a team especially with the reduced physicality rules so it's really all about FA recruitment like in college than it is about which system you run. The spurs are successfully as a small-market team because they have great european/international scouts that get amazing players for a reduced price since a ton of american players want 10+ mil a year contracts purely on their athleticism.. pretty much creating a league full of entitled divas who can't take a shred of criticism.

[3ball]

That's everything to do with the coaching. I swear some of you think Lebron is also in the GM's office hiring personnel and handling contracts.
so wait, you guys don't think lebron impacts the brand of basketball that his team employs and how optimal it is?

that's not rational... otoh, it's a fact that lebron's teams have been beaten in the Finals several times by teams who employ a superior brand of basketball - that never happened to Jordan and Bird, because their teams WERE THE VERY TEAMS employing the cutting edge brand of basketball.

it's completely factual - lebron's teams don't employ an optimal brand of basketball, while Bird and Jordan's teams did... no wonder Bird and Jordan have more rings... :confusedshrug:
.

[Dresta]

Sounds like a log-winded way of saying Bron pounds the ball way too much - so why not just say that? It's pretty true after all.

[triangleoffense]

new cop-out tactic: blame the system not the player even though Lebron is clearly the most athletically gifted player on the court who also had the luxury of playing with 2 other supremely athletically gifted players one of whom already had a ring.

I don't think Lebron handles criticism very well otherwise he would have no problem staying in south beach or linking up with perfectionist coaches that can further develop his game.. I mean the most demanding coach he's played for is spolestra aka Riley's assistant and even there was pampered so much by the crowd that he was untouchable

[3ball]

Sounds like a log-winded way of saying Bron pounds the ball way too much - so why not just say that? It's pretty true after all.


because lebron's suboptimal style prevents his teams from ever being like the spurs or mavs: lebron's teams can never be THE team with the optimal strategy that is playing the best brand of basketball... instead, he gets beat by such teams in the Finals.

this is a stark contrast from bird and jordan - bird and jordan's teams WERE that spurs or mavs team that employed the best style of play in the league - there was never another team out there that was going to surprise them in the Finals with a more optimal brand of basketball (like the spurs or mavs) - bird and jordan's teams WERE that very team employing the most optimal style of play.

no wonder they have more rings.

[sdot_thadon]

jordan won in 1998 with scottie gimpy - his back was injured and he only averaged 15ppg on 41% shooting in the 1998 Finals, which is worse than Wade in the 2014 Finals.

Rodman was MIA in the 1998 Finals as well, only averaging 3.2ppg and 8.3 rebs..... and in the 1997 Finals Rodman was even worse, only averaging 2.2 ppg and 7.7 rebounds.

No problem for Jordan - he adjusted by taking 27 shots per game in the 1998 Finals... he ended up scoring 38% of his team's points, which is a record of course.
Your suboptimal reading comprehension caused you to answer a question regarding a playoff run with an answer regarding the finals. You should use a style more cutting edge and optimal to answering questions and perhaps your threads wouldn't suck....ever considered gifs?:coleman:

[3ball]

Your suboptimal reading comprehension caused you to answer a question regarding a playoff run with an answer regarding the finals.


you whining about injuries when none of his teammates missed ANY games in the 2014 playoffs - they all played 20 games... :confusedshrug:

so your issue is not material and amounts to nothing more than whining from a stan... it's also a derail from the point of the thread: lebron's teams are never one of the teams employing optimal strategy or the best brand of basketball (like the spurs or mavs)... instead, he gets beat by such teams in the Finals.

the heat didn't get beat by talent in the 2014 Finals, they got beat by a superior brand of basketball - and this happens to lebron about half the time he makes the Finals.

this is a stark contrast from bird and jordan - bird and jordan's teams WERE that spurs or mavs team that employed the best style of play in the league - accordingly, there was never another team out there that was going to surprise them in the Finals with a more optimal brand of basketball (like the spurs or mavs) - bird and jordan's teams WERE that very team employing the most optimal style of play.

[sdot_thadon]

you whining about injuries when none of his teammates missed ANY games in the 2014 playoffs - they all played 20 games... :confusedshrug:

so your issue is not material and amounts to nothing more than whining from a stan... it's also a derail from the point of the thread: lebron's teams are never one of the teams employing optimal strategy or the best brand of basketball (like the spurs or mavs)... instead, he gets beat by such teams in the Finals.

the heat didn't get beat by talent in the 2014 Finals, they got beat by a superior brand of basketball - and this happens to lebron about half the time he makes the Finals.

this is a stark contrast from bird and jordan - bird and jordan's teams WERE that spurs or mavs team that employed the best style of play in the league - accordingly, there was never another team out there that was going to surprise them in the Finals with a more optimal brand of basketball (like the spurs or mavs) - bird and jordan's teams WERE that very team employing the most optimal style of play.
Dude, are you slow or just an idiot? I mention a specific situation and you continue to answer with shit that's irrelevant to what I said. I asked you to tell me when Mj or Bird completed a playoff run where 2nd and 3rd option were gimpy or injured and ended in a title. Please tell me wtf 2014 has to do with this?

**edit and for the record resorting to throwing around stan shit is like waving the white flag. Gtfoh with that

[FLDFSU]

That's everything to do with the coaching. I swear some of you think Lebron is also in the GM's office hiring personnel and handling contracts.

No. They do. They REALLY think that Lebron is the coach, GM, Owner, and club President of whatever team he is on.

[3ball]

I asked you to tell me when Mj or Bird completed a playoff run where 2nd and 3rd option were gimpy or injured and ended in a title.


wade averaged 17.8 ppg on 50% shooting in the 2014 playoffs and played every game.

pippen had 2 playoff runs distinctly worse than that - in 1996, he averaged 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting :eek: .... and in 1998 he averaged 16.8 ppg on 41% shooting.

of course, lebron also had bosh - he averaged 14.9 ppg and 5.6 rebs on 51% FG in the 2014 playoffs... by comparison, rodman averaged 2.3 ppg and 7.3 rebs on 37% in 1997 playoffs.

so your question is a thread derail that isn't even true... every single one of lebron's teammates played every single game in the 2014 playoffs - every single guy played the full 20 games, and they played better than Jordan's teammates did.

but that's not the issue of the thread - the issue is how lebron's suboptimal style means that he is never on the team employing the best strategy and most optimal brand of basketball, and instead gets beat by the teams that employ the optimal style of play (spurs, mavs)... otoh, bird and jordan's more optimal style of play allowed them to be the very team with the most optimal style and brand of basketball - their teams WERE the spurs and mavs, so there was never another team out there to surprise and beat them in the Finals with a better style of play.
.

[sdot_thadon]

wade averaged 17.8 ppg on 50% shooting in the 2014 playoffs and played every game.

pippen had 2 playoff runs distinctly worse than that - in 1996, he averaged 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting :eek: .... and in 1998 he averaged 16.8 ppg on 41% shooting.

of course, lebron also had bosh - he averaged 14.9 ppg and 5.6 rebs on 51% FG in the 2014 playoffs... by comparison, rodman averaged 2.3 ppg and 7.3 rebs on 37% in 1997 playoffs.

so your question is a thread derail that isn't even true... every single one of lebron's teammates played every single game in the 2014 playoffs - every single guy played the full 20 games, and they played better than Jordan's teammates did.

but that's not the issue of the thread - the issue is how lebron's suboptimal style means that he is never on the team employing the best strategy and most optimal brand of basketball, and instead gets beat by the teams that are (spurs, mavs)... otoh, bird and jordan's more optimal style of play allowed them to BE THE TEAM with the most optimal style and brand of basketball - their teams were the spurs and mavs.
.
So we're still talking about 2014 when thats not a title year correct? Lol I get it, anytime you're asked to give a rational answer you backpedal to your set of suboptimal copy paste.

Lebron was able to win the finals 2 times with this supposed "suboptimal" style even though wade was hurt during both runs and bosh during the 1st run. I simply asked when did Mj or bird win a ring where their 2nd and 3rd options were hurt. (2012)

[guy]

So we're still talking about 2014 when thats not a title year correct? Lol I get it, anytime you're asked to give a rational answer you backpedal to your set of suboptimal copy paste.

Lebron was able to win the finals 2 times with this supposed "suboptimal" style even though wade was hurt during both runs and bosh during the 1st run. I simply asked when did Mj or bird win a ring where their 2nd and 3rd options were hurt. (2012)

If you don't have to be missing games to be considered hurt then you can definitely say Pippen was hurt for some of the 2nd threepeat playoff runs, especially 98. He was dealing with nagging surgeries for some of that time. It's a big reason why his shooting numbers are terrible in those runs. Kukoc had some injuries as well and actually missed some games in 96. This idea that Lebron is the only player that ever had to deal with anything like that is ridiculous. In deep playoff runs, there's almost always players that aren't 100%.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

wade averaged 17.8 ppg on 50% shooting in the 2014 playoffs and played every game.

pippen had 2 playoff runs distinctly worse than that - in 1996, he averaged 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting :eek: .... and in 1998 he averaged 16.8 ppg on 41% shooting.

of course, lebron also had bosh - he averaged 14.9 ppg and 5.6 rebs on 51% FG in the 2014 playoffs... by comparison, rodman averaged 2.3 ppg and 7.3 rebs on 37% in 1997 playoffs.

so your question is a thread derail that isn't even true... every single one of lebron's teammates played every single game in the 2014 playoffs - every single guy played the full 20 games, and they played better than Jordan's teammates did.

but that's not the issue of the thread - the issue is how lebron's suboptimal style means that he is never on the team employing the best strategy and most optimal brand of basketball, and instead gets beat by the teams that employ the optimal style of play (spurs, mavs)... otoh, bird and jordan's more optimal style of play allowed them to be the very team with the most optimal style and brand of basketball - their teams WERE the spurs and mavs, so there was never another team out there to surprise and beat them in the Finals with a better style of play.
.

Pippen and Rodman were defensive beasts in the 2nd 3peat, so their stats really do not indicate their impact. Terrible example.

[3ball]

wade played 86 of 87 playoff games during lebron's Heat tenure... and bosh played 80 of 87.... so i didn't even know what you were talking about - i figured you were talking about the 2014 debacle, so i just responded about that
.

[sdot_thadon]

wade played 86 of 87 playoff games during lebron's Heat tenure... and bosh played 80 of 87.... so i didn't even know what you were talking about - i figured you were talking about the 2014 debacle, so i just responded about that.....snip (copy paste porn)dude last time, I was pretty clear. Title run. That is all.

[sdot_thadon]

If you don't have to be missing games to be considered hurt then you can definitely say Pippen was hurt for some of the 2nd threepeat playoff runs, especially 98. He was dealing with nagging surgeries for some of that time. It's a big reason why his shooting numbers are terrible in those runs. Kukoc had some injuries as well and actually missed some games in 96. This idea that Lebron is the only player that ever had to deal with anything like that is ridiculous. In deep playoff runs, there's almost always players that aren't 100%.
I agree 100%. I never said lebron was the only one to deal with injuries to his teammates. My statement was pretty specific about the 2nd and 3rd option both injured during a run that ended in a championship. In 2012 Bosh missed an entire series and when he returned finished the playoffs injured. Wade was injured throughout, even needed his knee drained midseries against indy. Basically the equivalents of Mj having Pippen AND Rodman/Grant injured and still win the title or Bird having Mchale and Parish BOTH injured and still win.

Not really a big issue, it's arbitrary but was a question to a closed mind that can't seem to compute.

[3ball]

anyway, nice try with the derail attempt - the point of the thread remains: lebron dominates the ball (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) more than stephen curry, eric bledsoe, tyreke evans, goran dragic, and various other point guards - this is highly suboptimal for a forward, since it impinges on the roles of the actual guards on his team and institutes a suboptimal, predictable style of play (mostly some variation of drive and kick that relegates all positions to floor-spreader status).

this "lebron-ball", as it's come to be called, prevents lebron's teams from ever developing a reputation as one of those teams that employs superior strategy and an optimal brand of basketball - instead, lebron's teams get surprised and beaten in the Finals by teams ARE recognized as being on the cutting edge of optimal play (i.e. spurs, mavs)..

otoh, bird and jordan's more optimal style of play allowed their teams to be the spurs and mavs-type team that was known for employing the most optimal style and brand of basketball... so naturally, they won more rings.

[Kvnzhangyay]

anyway, nice try with the derail attempt - the point of the thread remains: lebron dominates the ball (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) more than stephen curry, eric bledsoe, tyreke evans, goran dragic, and various other point guards - this is highly suboptimal for a forward, since it impinges on the roles of the actual guards on his team and institutes a suboptimal, predictable style of play (mostly some variation of drive and kick that relegates all positions to floor-spreader status).

this "lebron-ball", as it's come to be called, prevents lebron's teams from ever developing a reputation as one of those teams that employs superior strategy and an optimal brand of basketball - instead, lebron's teams get surprised and beaten in the Finals by teams ARE recognized as being on the cutting edge of optimal play (i.e. spurs, mavs)..

otoh, bird and jordan's more optimal style of play allowed their teams to be the spurs and mavs-type team that was known for employing the most optimal style and brand of basketball... so naturally, they won more rings.

bird's team only won 3 rings, one more than Lebron does so far, except Lebron did it in 4 years (should have won 3 if Lebron didn't have the biggest chokejob in NBA history)

[rlsmooth775]

Lebron had to carry garbage teams his entire career look at cavs did without him look at miami now Op is butthurt :roll:

[Kvnzhangyay]

are you not considering the level of competition played?

Bird lost to Magic's Lakers twice and that was it - he never lost as the favorite and was never surprised in the Finals by a team that played a better brand of basketball.

the point of the thread is that Bird and Jordan were not capable of losing the way lebron lost - the spurs and mavs didn't beat the heat in 2011 and 2014 with talent, but by playing a superior brand of basketball - however, with Bird and Jordan, it wasn't possible for another team in the league to be playing a better brand of basketball then their teams.

by the way, you guys treat lebron's choke job like a natural disaster - something that's not his fault.

only in 2014 your argument stands about having a better system; heat should have easily won if lebron didn't choke

also, would you argue that Lebron actually has too much influence in coaching? Based on your argument Bird and Jordan played in their coach's systems, but Lebron has his own, worse, system?

[3ball]

only in 2014 your argument stands about having a better system; heat should have easily won if lebron didn't choke
i was going to edit my post, but that's okay, you quoted it already.

regarding 2011 - part of playing an optimal brand of basketball is being able to mesh with teammates, which lebron couldn't do in 2011..

whereas teams like the spurs, mavs, bird's celtics and jordan's bulls never had this problem - they led the very teams taking advantage of suboptimal teams like lebron's.
.

[nba_55]

What a dumb thread! Define strategically optimal basketball? You use big words that mean nothing.

[Kvnzhangyay]

i was going to edit my post, but that's okay, you quoted it already.

regarding 2011 - part of playing an optimal brand of basketball is being able to mesh with teammates, which lebron couldn't do in 2011 - whereas teams like the spurs, mavs, bird's celtics and jordan's bulls never had this problem - they were the teams taking advantage of suboptimal teams like lebron's teams.

that is true, but could that also be a result of the coaching? perhaps other coaches could keep bird/jordan under control and in the system, but spoelstra couldn't keep lebron?

out of the teams you mentioned in that post, spoelstra is by far the worst coach

[PsychoBe]

bran turns all his pg's into spot-up shooters

[nba_55]

bran turns all his pg's into spot-up shooters

Kyrie isn't a spot up shooter dumbass.

[Prometheus]

This forum has a lot of trolls, but dare I say 3ball is the most annoying poster in the game today.

[3ball]

that is true, but could that also be a result of the coaching? perhaps other coaches could keep bird/jordan under control and in the system, but spoelstra couldn't keep lebron?


it's easier to make a guy play off-ball if he's already an off-ball player...

i understand why coaches don't force lebron to live off-ball, on the post, or play more like bird or jordan... it's just not his game and he puts up great numbers the suboptimal way, so it's much easier to have his teammates just conform to him... even if it hurts the team in the long run, it helps in the short run by allowing coaches to keep the peace and their job.

now if lebron was an off-ball player like bird or jordan, his teammates would automatically fit in easier, so a coach would not have the dilemma of either making them conform to lebron, or making lebron conform to them and change his game.

in lebron's case, he was talented enough himself, and he had two dream-teamers as supporting talent, so this was enough to squeak through with a couple rings anyway... but it wasn't nearly enough for a real dynasty like Bird or Jordan's teams.





out of the teams you mentioned in that post, spoelstra is by far the worst coach


hmmmm... how many threads on ISH were made between 2012 and before the 2014 Finals that said Spo was a great coach and/or all-time coach?... i'd bet there's a ton of threads saying this.. i find that spo seems to coincidentally look really bad right when an excuse for lebron is needed.
.

[fpliii]

This forum has a lot of trolls, but dare I say 3ball is the most annoying poster in the game today.
3ball's not a troll though, I've been posting on and off with the guy for probably a year and a half now. Don't always agree with him, but he knows his stuff. :confusedshrug:

There are certain topics where we'll agree to disagree, but I always appreciate the conversation/debate with him.

[Prometheus]

3ball's not a troll though, I've been posting on and off with the guy for probably a year and a half now. Don't always agree with him, but he knows his stuff. :confusedshrug:

There are certain topics where we'll agree to disagree, but I always appreciate the conversation/debate with him.

No I agree. He's not quite a troll. I never said he was.

[Kvnzhangyay]

it's easier to make a guy play off-ball if he's already an off-ball player...

i understand why coaches don't force lebron to live off-ball, on the post, or play more like bird or jordan... it's just not his game and he puts up great numbers the suboptimal way, so it's much easier to have his teammates just conform to him... even if it hurts the team in the long run, it helps in the short run by allowing coaches to keep the peace and their job.

now if lebron was an off-ball player like bird or jordan, his teammates would automatically fit in easier, so a coach would not have the dilemma of either making them conform to lebron, or making lebron conform to them and change his game.

in lebron's case, he was talented enough himself, and he had two dream-teamers as supporting talent, so this was enough to squeak through with a couple rings anyway... but it wasn't nearly enough for a real dynasty like Bird or Jordan's teams.



hmmmm... how many threads on ISH were made between 2012 and before the 2014 Finals that said Spo was a great coach and/or all-time coach?... i'd bet there's a ton of threads saying this.. i find that spo seems to coincidentally look really bad right when an excuse for lebron is needed.
.

spo's a pretty good coach, but comparing him to Phil/Rick/Pop??

never watched the celtic's coaches when Bird was playing so idk about them about yeah...

[livinglegend]

Great thread OP.
Just shows how lucky Jordan and Bird were to have HOF coaches who could use the best strategies to make their teams win. Lebron had incompetent coaches like Mike Brown and Spobot, and still, he got to 5 finals and won 2 championships. With a coach like Pop or Phil, he would already have 5 championships easily.

[3ball]

No I agree. He's not quite a troll. I never said he was.
i'd have to say that you're closer to a troll than i am..

for example, you said lebron doesn't dominate the ball as much as a point guards even after i showed you that he dominates the ball more (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1
) than the best point guard in the league, stephan curry, and more than others like goran dragic, kyrie irving, and eric bledsoe (using your methodology of time of poss/playing time).
.

[3ball]

Great thread OP.
Just shows how lucky Jordan and Bird were to have HOF coaches who could use the best strategies to make their teams win. Lebron had incompetent coaches like Mike Brown and Spobot, and still, he got to 5 finals and won 2 championships. With a coach like Pop or Phil, he would already have 5 championships easily.


if lebron had phil jackson as a coach when he first came in the league at 18, then he would have been open to the triangle, and the triangle would have forced him to develop the post game and natural off-ball game necessary to eventually execute the triangle well enough to win rings.

jordan didn't need phil's triangle when he first came in the league to force him off-ball - he had already learned the finest fundamentals of off-ball play at north carolina for 3 years under dean smith, who ran one of the strictest team systems ever.. dominating the ball was unheard of (certainly at north carolina, but in general too - overall, guys didn't dominate the ball as much back then).

so going back to lebron - if he didn't start playing for phil until 5 or more years into his career, he would have the same problems with the triangle that carmelo has, because he would be reluctant to rebuild his game so far into his career - he wouldn't see the value.

[yarrak]

if lebron had phil jackson as a coach when he first came in the league at 18, then he would have been open to the triangle, and the triangle would have forced him to develop the post game and natural off-ball game necessary to eventually execute the triangle well enough to win rings.

jordan didn't need phil's triangle when he first came in the league to force him off-ball - he had already learned the finest fundamentals of off-ball play at north carolina for 3 years under dean smith, who ran one of the strictest team systems ever.. dominating the ball was unheard of (certainly at north carolina, but in general too - overall, guys didn't dominate the ball as much back then).

so going back to lebron - if he didn't start playing for phil until 5 or more years into his career, he would have the same problems with the triangle that carmelo has, because he would be reluctant to rebuild his game so far into his career - he wouldn't see the value.

How do you know dumbass?

[3ball]

How do you know dumbass?
because 12 years into his career, he still he dominates the ball like a point guard, more (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) than the best point guard in the league, stephan curry, and more than others like goran dragic, kyrie irving, and eric bledsoe.

point guards putting up numbers don't turn into off-ball players... but maybe you can point me to an example where that's happened.

[Sharmer]

Jordan and Bird came from a different era. That's when men were men. Today men are boys. The league is soft. Today's players are too busy taking selfies and lubricating themselves with oil.

[yarrak]

because he dominates the ball like a point guard, more (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) than the best point guard in the league, stephan curry, and more than others like goran dragic, kyrie irving, and eric bledsoe.

point guards putting up numbers don't turn into off-ball players... but maybe you can point me to an example where that's happened.
.

The situation you talked about in your previous post never happened.

Lebron and Carmelo are not similar players. Just because Carmelo struggled doesn't mean LeBron would struggle as well.

What's your problem with him handling the ball? When Kyrie was handling the ball the cavs were on a LOSING streak. Lebron started playing pg or point forward I should say and now they are doing so much better. I never understood your obsession with him dominating the ball/playing off ball. Yes It's good to have an off-ball game...but when Lebron touches the ball, good things happen. It's not like he is averaging like 30 shots a game and taking away shots from others. He creates better chances for his teammates. Him dominating the ball is actually a GOOD thing. It doesn't matter for you though.

All you want is to prove in every way you can that Jordan>Lebron.

I'm a huge LeBron fan but I never said lebron>jordan. Jordan is the GOAT. I'm pretty sure most Lebron fans feel the same way other than a few trolls. I've always loved Jordan and his game but people like you make me NOT like him.

Please stop trying to discredit LeBron with stupid shit. You're just being annoying as ****. Get a life dude. All your threads/posts are about lebron. Why are you so insecure?

[3ball]

The situation you talked about in your previous post never happened.

Lebron and Carmelo are not similar players. Just because Carmelo struggled doesn't mean LeBron would struggle as well.


you asked me how i knew lebron would be reluctant to rebuild his game so far into his career (in order to transform from a primary ball-handler, to the off-ball player that the triangle requires).

my answer was that 12 years into his career, he's still dominating the ball like a point guard, and point guards putting up numbers don't turn into off-ball players.

what's wrong with this answer - you asked a question, and i thought i answered it... the comparison to carmelo's struggles with the triangle got you heated, but it wasn't really that important of a point - the main point is that players don't rebuild their game halfway into their careers.
.

[SpanishACB]

OP revisionism is stupid

[JtotheIzzo]

when bird and jordan's teams were making the NBA Finals, their teams played the most STRATEGICALLY optimal basketball of any team in the league - there was no spurs or mavs team out there that was going to surprise in the Finals and show everyone that they played a better brand of basketball.. bird and jordan's teams WERE those teams employing the best strategy and brand of of basketball - they WERE the spurs or the mavs or whoever had the strategic edge on the league.

this is not the case for lebron... regardless of whether he has the talent on his team or not, it is EASILY possible that another team or several teams are playing a more optimal, strategically-better brand of basketball than lebron and his team is - accordingly, his teams are susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by whoever IS employing the best strategy... meanwhile, Bird and Jordan's teams were never susceptible because their teams WERE THE VERY TEAMS employing the best strategy.

Lebron's game is not as optimal as Bird or Jordan's - he dominates the ball like Magic but gets half the assists - it's just super suboptimal... so expect MORE disappointments in the Finals... since the nature of lebron's game is not strategically optimal, it's not surprising that many of his teams don't employ the best available strategy, and instead get surprised in the Finals by a team that DOES employ the best strategy.

Spoelstra needs som of the blame for this. He should have had LBJ ready, look at the Heat this year.

You are true in that guys played hard for Bird and guys were afraid to f*ck up Jordan's run, but for LBJ his test is now, he needs to become alpha, because in Miami DWade cut his alphaness out from under him especially in the Dallas final.

Now whether that is on LBJ or Wade is a debate only those in the locker room can have but we have seen LBJ punked before (Pierce Garnett) which is anecdotal evidence to softness.

If he takes this Cleveland team by the balls and wins, he is alpha, if he ho hums through the season and is out before the finals, he is beta or gasp! dare I say gamma?

BTW Bird's team played poorly against shit teams in the reg season, so do not read too much into this.

-Jizz

[3ball]

If he takes this Cleveland team by the balls and wins, he is alpha, if he ho hums through the season and is out before the finals, he is beta or gasp! dare I say gamma?


all a championship in cleveland will show is something we all would predict anyway: put one dream-teamer with two other dream-teamers, and they should be able to win a championship.

lebron already confirmed this notion miami, and now he is trying to re-confirm it again in cleveland - indeed, lebron is the only player to ever play with two other dream-teamers on two separate teams.

[sdot_thadon]

3ball's not a troll though, I've been posting on and off with the guy for probably a year and a half now. Don't always agree with him, but he knows his stuff. :confusedshrug:

There are certain topics where we'll agree to disagree, but I always appreciate the conversation/debate with him.
He's not a troll, he has knowledge and actually brings information to his discussions. It's the way he chooses to use said info that comes off as idiotic and borderline trollish. Kinda like a forum version of rainman, sits in the corner repeating the exact same statements nobody agrees with. He doesn't come here to have discussions. Lots of these guys here aren't adults that much is clear and the half that actually are? Lord help them lol.

[GimmeThat]

when bird and jordan's teams were making the NBA Finals, their teams played the most STRATEGICALLY optimal basketball of any team in the league - there was no spurs or mavs team out there that was going to surprise in the Finals and show everyone that they played a better brand of basketball.. bird and jordan's teams WERE those teams employing the best strategy and brand of of basketball - they WERE the spurs or the mavs or whoever had the strategic edge on the league.

this is not the case for lebron... regardless of whether he has the talent on his team or not, it is EASILY possible that another team or several teams are playing a more optimal, strategically-better brand of basketball than lebron and his team is - accordingly, his teams are susceptible to getting exposed and embarrassed in the Finals by whoever IS employing the best strategy... meanwhile, Bird and Jordan's teams were never susceptible because their teams WERE THE VERY TEAMS employing the best strategy.

Lebron's game is not as optimal as Bird or Jordan's - he dominates the ball like Magic but gets half the assists - it's just super suboptimal... so expect MORE disappointments in the Finals... since the nature of lebron's game is not strategically optimal, it's not surprising that many of his teams don't employ the best available strategy, and instead get surprised in the Finals by a team that DOES employ the best strategy.


I can tell you right now, that the ring Celtics had over the Lakers with PP and Kobe

the Lakers was the most optimal strategic team.

[La Frescobaldi]

I can tell you right now, that the ring Celtics had over the Lakers with PP and Kobe

the Lakers was the most optimal strategic team.

you're comparing doc rivers with p jax ? lulz

[GimmeThat]

you're comparing doc rivers with p jax ? lulz


I'm comparing Rambo, to that movie about an American taking a beating in order to survive after being captured.