I am officially sick of the attacks on Kobe

[konex]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40712/pau-gasols-legacy-with-the-lakers-lives-on

[QUOTE]Gasol helped turn around a franchise still searching for an identity after Shaquille O'Neal left in 2004 via trade to Miami. In the first three seasons after O

[IamRAMBO24]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40712/pau-gasols-legacy-with-the-lakers-lives-on



How ****ing biased is this? What was Pau's winning % before he came to LA? Wasn't he like 0-12 in the playoffs too?

My biggest problem is that even in a nice article about Pau, the writer has to try and discredit Kobe.

Kobe needs to find his game cos it's open season on him now from all the folks he's shut up over the years :mad:

The way Kobe can turn things around is if he plays like his MVP season. It wasn't all about him.

[Heavincent]

Kobe detractors had to wait until he was in his 19th season and coming off two major injuries to start ripping on him because they ran out of material when he won FMVP in 09.

Cowardly, really.

[rezznor]

Kobe detractors had to wait until he was in his 19th season and coming off two major injuries to start ripping on him because they ran out of material when he won FMVP in 09.

Cowardly, really.
Kobe detractors have been ripping him his entire career. Where dafuq have you been?

[Heavincent]

Kobe detractors have been ripping him his entire career. Where dafuq have you been?

I know. I just think it's funny how they think this season impacts his legacy or is indicative of his career as a whole.

That said, Kobe needs to get his shit together. Stop taking so many damn shots. It's embarrassing tbh. He's living up to all of the false myths the detractors made up over the years.

[strifed169]

Kobe getting eaten alive :lol

[Dragonyeuw]

I know. I just think it's funny how they think this season impacts his legacy or is indicative of his career as a whole.

.

It shouldn't be, but chucking your way just to maintain your ppg or continue up the all-time list is an ending unbefitting of someone with Kobe's career and stature. Granted its not as though the Lakers are swarming in offensive options, but all the same, his play isn't resulting in winning basketball so at this point play a mentor/facilitator role and let the other guys get their shots, and provide offense as the game dictates.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I know. I just think it's funny how they think this season impacts his legacy or is indicative of his career as a whole.

That said, Kobe needs to get his shit together. Stop taking so many damn shots. It's embarrassing tbh. He's living up to all of the false myths the detractors made up over the years.


Aside from your obvious trolls, who says his performance this season actually impacts his legacy? Even my non-fanatic basketball friends in real life who barely watch basketball can clearly see that Kobe has been a cancer this season. Yet at the same time, none of them being students of the game, they also still realize Kobe is one of the greatest of all time and his legacy is set.

Stop making it out like every Kobe critic, both fans of him and anti fans and fully justified in being a critic, is saying stuff like you proclaimed.

[JohnMax]

How is Gasol going 0-12 any different than Kobe not getting past 1st round without Shaq?

[L8krH8tr]

nobody wants to play with his selfish ballhog ass, whats so hard to understand?

[GimmeThat]

Even if he never recovers from his injury?

[Sharmer]

It's a awaking people are starting to realise how toxic Kobe is and how overrated he is.

[DaRkJaWs]

Kobe has not been a cancer this season...maybe a quarter to half the games, not all of them.

[CJ Mustard]

Kobe hasn't ever won without a superstar big man, that's a fact. Kobe can't carry teams like Lebron, Duncan, or Shaq can. Give any of those guys in their prime the 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2013 Lakers (I'm not gonna throw 2015 in there because Kobe is obviously done), and they cruise to the Playoffs and probably win a round. Yet Kobe is put on par with these guys with and there are people who say he's better. Of course unbiased people who know basketball are going to find that ridiculous and point out his flaws.

If Kobe fans would just accept the fact that's he's a top 10-15 player who's had a great career but never dominated the league, he wouldn't get nearly the hate. But you insist on comparing him to Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, therefore he gets shit on. I actually enjoy watching Kobe play, if it wasn't for his fans I wouldn't have anything negative to say about him.

[Done_And_Done]

Kobe hasn't ever won without a superstar big man, that's a fact. Kobe has can't carry teams like Lebron, Duncan, or Shaq can. Give any of those guys in their prime the 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2013 Lakers (I'm not gonna throw 2015 in there because Kobe is obviously done), and they cruise to the Playoffs and probably win a round. Yet Kobe is put on par with these guys with and there are people who say he's better. Of course unbiased people who know basketball are going to find that ridiculous and point out his flaws.

If Kobe fans would just accept the fact that's he's a top 10-15 player who's had a great career but never dominated the league, he wouldn't get nearly the hate. But you insist on comparing him to Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, therefore he gets shit on. I actually enjoy watching Kobe play, if it wasn't for his fans I wouldn't have anything negative to say about him.

I could care less about Kobe but don't you dare use Lebron James as an example of one who spearheaded a relatively decent team to championship glory. We're talking about a guy who is infamous for the leagues most prolific instance of collusion.

Feel free to make your point against Kobe's legacy but at least validate your opinions with truthful facts.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Kobe hasn't ever won without a superstar big man, that's a fact. Kobe can't carry teams like Lebron, Duncan, or Shaq can.

i really hope you are joking right now

[CJ Mustard]

I could care less about Kobe but don't you dare use Lebron James as an example of one who spearheaded a relatively decent team to championship glory. We're talking about a guy who is infamous for the leagues most prolific instance of collusion.

Feel free to make your point against Kobe's legacy but at least validate your opinions with truthful facts.
Lebron got to the Finals with a worse cast than Kobe has ever had around him in his career. Lebron won 60+ games two years in a row with teams on par with the '05-'06 Lakers. Don't even suggest Kobe can carry a team anywhere near Lebron can. Kobe has a Tracy McGrady like resume without a star big man on his team.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lebron got to the Finals

are you using a finals in the east as some sort of accomplishment? where do you rank Dwight may i ask? he did the same and didn't got swept in the finals.

[CJ Mustard]

i really hope you are joking right now
Nope. Duncan carried the '03 Spurs to a title with no other all stars on the team, Shaq carried the 2000 Lakers through the Playoffs, averaged 38/17 on 60% shooting in the Finals, the next leading scorer averaged 16 on 37% shooting. And Lebron carried Cleveland for the first 7 years of his career with no other stars.

[CJ Mustard]

are you using a finals in the east as some sort of accomplishment? where do you rank Dwight may i ask? he did the same and didn't got swept in the finals.
Dwight got there by default because KG was injured.

[JohnMax]

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Swaggy_Unchained-2.jpg

[Mr. Jabbar]

Nope. Duncan carried the '03 Spurs to a title with no other all stars on the team, Shaq carried the 2000 Lakers through the Playoffs, averaged 38/17 on 60% shooting in the Finals, the next leading scorer averaged 16 on 37% shooting. And Lebron carried Cleveland for the first 7 years of his career with no other stars.

poor duncan "carrying" that franchise

2000 shaq lets just use finals boxscore and forget everything else

where did lebron carry cleveland for 7 years in the east exactly?


kobe carried 08-09-10 lakers to 3 straight finals and 2 chips with no superstar but a star in pau gasol. more than what shaq 00 (kobe) duncan 03 (parker,ginobili,robinson) had for help considering competition. im not even mentioning lebron who failed to even win a finals game without the aid of TWO other superstars, not to mention win a ring

[CJ Mustard]

poor duncan "carrying" that franchise

2000 shaq lets just use finals boxscore and forget everything else

where did lebron carry cleveland for 7 years in the east exactly?


kobe carried 08-09-10 lakers to 3 straight finals and 2 chips with no superstar but a star in pau gasol. more than what shaq 00 (kobe) duncan 03 (parker,ginobili,robinson) had for help considering competition. im not even mentioning lebron who failed to even win a finals game without the aid of TWO other superstars.
:kobe: This is the type of shit I'm talking about.

[Mr. Jabbar]

:kobe: This is the type of shit I'm talking about.

kinda trust your judgement after all the shit you posted yourself

[NZStreetBaller]

Am i the only one who believes that the lakers beating the warriors had more to do with both of the teams psychology combined with a stroke of luck. rather then the basic move of benching kobe.

think about it. the whole team knows that they just get called scrubs and kobe is the only star. they got given an opportunity to shine and man did they take it they put a tone of more effort into this game then any game they've ever played. there was even a thread about "do the lakers look rejuvinated?"

and the warriors on the other hand just completely discarded the lakers. they were just coasting. playing a scrub team without superstar kobe while having the best record in the west "take it easy guys and nobody get injured we got nothing to prove"

Yes kobe needs to adjust his game but your mad if u think this flash in the pan 100% signifies that this team is better without him.

[VeeCee15]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

[oarabbus]

Kobe detractors had to wait until he was in his 19th season and coming off two major injuries to start ripping on him because they ran out of material when he won FMVP in 09.

Cowardly, really.


Lol dude come on. Cowardly Kobe detractors? Does it really need to be said that Kobe is a legend? Sure there are plenty of trolls afoot but let's be real. No one is going to begin every discussion with:

"Pardon me good sirs. Let me broach the subject of Kobe Bryant, who I must say is one of the greatest to ever lace them up. Before I begin, may I state that Mr. Bryant is indeed an all time great? I steadfastly insist he is one of the greatest SGs of all time. I shall preface this discussion by postulating that his 2xFMVP and 5 rings, 16x all stars, and 11 NBA first teams does quite undoubtedly cement his status as a generational talent.

Now, with that stated, perchance may I opine about his questionable shot selection and pernicious conduct on the court as of recent happenstance?"


Kobe is acting a fool this season. He looks bad and the stats show he's a major detriment to the team. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to appease kobestans in order to make an objective remark about his play, which has been terrible so far.

[Budadiiii]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.
http://clippers.topbuzz.com/images/nba/kobe-bryant-3.jpg

[chazzy]

Baxter is a former Celtics writer who consistently takes subtle shots at Kobe. Company man :lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.
Damn, this lurker came out of hiding to make this epic post :applause:

[ImKobe]

Seriously, it's one thing to bash Kobe for what he's done THIS season, it's another thing to go the length of diminishing his legacy and his career accomplishments.

[Bless Mathews]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

Poast of the year nominee.

:applause:

[Nevaeh]

Seriously, it's one thing to bash Kobe for what he's done THIS season, it's another thing to go the length of diminishing his legacy and his career accomplishments.


Dude, please.......:rolleyes:


How many times do we constantly get reminded of "Five Rangz" here on ISH? Or the "count down to passing Jordan" threads, or the 30k/6k/6k club (right there, under your name), etc.?

When a player who has a rep of being great but plays like total crap at the expense of his teammates, it's gonna get noticed here, no matter who the player is. Kobe Stans are hands down the most sensitive bunch to player criticism of anybody on any sports message board, period. Ironic, considering how "great" we are constantly reminded that he is.

And of course, the one moment that his team has any chemistry or success without him, Kobe fans begin the "whine brigade", because they never want either kobe or themselves to be wrong about anything.

[CJ Mustard]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Robin-Lopez-Suns-Bench-Shock-Reaction.gif

[COnDEMnED]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/40712/pau-gasols-legacy-with-the-lakers-lives-on



How ****ing biased is this? What was Pau's winning % before he came to LA? Wasn't he like 0-12 in the playoffs too?

My biggest problem is that even in a nice article about Pau, the writer has to try and discredit Kobe.

Kobe needs to find his game cos it's open season on him now from all the folks he's shut up over the years :mad:
Is this you or are you plagiarizing. http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=171579

It's word for word.

[ImKobe]

Dude, please.......:rolleyes:


How many times do we constantly get reminded of "Five Rangz" here on ISH? Or the "count down to passing Jordan" threads, or the 30k/6k/6k club (right there, under your name), etc.?

When a player who has a rep of being great but plays like total crap at the expense of his teammates, it's gonna get noticed here, no matter who the player is. Kobe Stans are hands down the most sensitive bunch to player criticism of anybody on any sports message board, period. Ironic, considering how "great" we are constantly reminded that he is.

And of course, the one moment that his team has any chemistry or success without him, Kobe fans begin the "whine brigade", because they never want either kobe or themselves to be wrong about anything.

Like I said, it's one thing to bash him for THIS season, which has been bad for his standards, but people are trying to diminish his 5 rings and his great Playoff runs using the current season as some kind of proof :kobe:

If you actually browsed ISH, you'd know I've criticized him a ton this very season and I've said that his play has been horrible for the most part, but that doesn't mean he was bad the years past. Dude at 34 was a top 5 NBA player and destroyed teams left and right, but I didn't see the haters say this kind of bullshit then.

Dude's 36 years old coming off two major injuries to his lower body, basically has zero athleticism left, of course he's going to be worse than the years past. And him hurting the team this year might actually be a good thing because we could end up with a top 5 pick that would benefit our franchise in the future. Of course the team right now would be better without him playing heavy minutes every night because he's not going to be as great as he was in 2013. There's still 4 months of regular season ball to go homie, let's see his numbers at the end of the season.

That's all I'm saying though, yet you're still trying to find some kind of angle to bash me, and you're making up shit in the process.

[Batzman]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.
7 years.












Rent free.


http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2014/12/20/7ohr.gif

[Nevaeh]

Like I said, it's one thing to bash him for THIS season, which has been bad for his standards, but people are trying to diminish his 5 rings and his great Playoff runs using the current season as some kind of proof :kobe:

If you actually browsed ISH, you'd know I've criticized him a ton this very season and I've said that his play has been horrible for the most part, but that doesn't mean he was bad the years past. Dude at 34 was a top 5 NBA player and destroyed teams left and right, but I didn't see the haters say this kind of bullshit then.

Dude's 36 years old coming off two major injuries to his lower body, basically has zero athleticism left, of course he's going to be worse than the years past. And him hurting the team this year might actually be a good thing because we could end up with a top 5 pick that would benefit our franchise in the future. Of course the team right now would be better without him playing heavy minutes every night because he's not going to be as great as he was in 2013. There's still 4 months of regular season ball to go homie, let's see his numbers at the end of the season.

That's all I'm saying though, yet you're still trying to find some kind of angle to bash me, and you're making up shit in the process.


I must've seen this "go-to" line posted dozens of times already, and it should be all the more reason for both kobe and his fans to realize that it's time to adjust his game. And lets not act like Kobe's past 3 seasons were setting the League on fire either, even when his help was better.

It's the same issue that Magic had with the Lakers in '96 and MJ had with Wizards in '01-03; young cats don't wanna run with old dudes who can't play on a high level consistently, yet still wanna call shots like they're in their primes.

As far as bashing you, I must say that you've been more than reasonable, not only as a Kobe fan, but with your critique of him as well. Unfortunately, you're pretty outnumbered here by the apologists who have to be constantly reminded of how stupid some of their posts are.

[AirFederer]

A little harsh but not a bad summary :lol

Obviously Kobe has had great years, but he's not top 10 material. Never was. Needed big time help, nothing wrong without that. My problem with Kobe over the years has always been his need to be the hero. It's okayish when he was in his prime, but now it's so silly it indicates a really really low BBIQ. He could have made the team better, but once again chose Kobeball....



Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

[Mr Feeny]

A little harsh but not a bad summary :lol

Obviously Kobe has had great years, but he's not top 10 material. Never was. Needed big time help, nothing wrong without that. My problem with Kobe over the years has always been his need to be the hero. It's okayish when he was in his prime, but now it's so silly it indicates a really really low BBIQ. He could have made the team better, but once again chose Kobeball....

This. There's nothing wrong with being 11-12 on the all time GOAT list. Why Kobe stans are throwing tantrums left and right is beyond me.

[dontgetchoked]

That article is retarded. So kobe gets a great number 2 option and his team gets better. Orly? So you're telling me that when a team gets better players they actually win more games? ? Damn who would've thought. ..

[ImKobe]

I must've seen this "go-to" line posted dozens of times already, and it should be all the more reason for both kobe and his fans to realize that it's time to adjust his game. And lets not act like Kobe's past 3 seasons were setting the League on fire either, even when his help was better.

It's the same issue that Magic had with the Lakers in '96 and MJ had with Wizards in '01-03; young cats don't wanna run with old dudes who can't play on a high level consistently, yet still wanna call shots like they're in their primes.

As far as bashing you, I must say that you've been more than reasonable, not only as a Kobe fan, but with your critique of him as well. Unfortunately, you're pretty outnumbered here by the apologists who have to be constantly reminded of how stupid some of their posts are.

But the FO doesn't want Kobe to adjust his game. They want that pick, whether they admit it or not. A top 5 pick is something we could really use and if Kobe is unintentionally helping us get there, I'd say let him go at it. This team is not going to make the Playoffs anyways, so why go for 30-40 wins? It doesn't help us at all, most of the roster will not be back next season. I'd love the Lakers to draft Okafor or Towns.

I wanted this team to make the Playoffs and I was optimistic and talked a lot of shit like 5-10 games ago and it seemed when Young returned that they might actually make it there, but the West is just too stacked for that to happen, especially now that Houston got Josh Smith and Dallas got Rondo.

Thanks for a reasonable response though, I didn't expect that. :cheers:

[KobesFinger]

Kobe hasn't ever won without a superstar big man, that's a fact. Kobe can't carry teams like Lebron, Duncan, or Shaq can. Give any of those guys in their prime the 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2013 Lakers (I'm not gonna throw 2015 in there because Kobe is obviously done), and they cruise to the Playoffs and probably win a round. Yet Kobe is put on par with these guys with and there are people who say he's better. Of course unbiased people who know basketball are going to find that ridiculous and point out his flaws.

If Kobe fans would just accept the fact that's he's a top 10-15 player who's had a great career but never dominated the league, he wouldn't get nearly the hate. But you insist on comparing him to Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, therefore he gets shit on. I actually enjoy watching Kobe play, if it wasn't for his fans I wouldn't have anything negative to say about him.

LeBron? The same guy who made the decision AND choked the same year? Then left to rejoin the Cavs?
I'll give you 2003 for Duncan but 05, 07 and 14? Please
Shaq? He's had more help than Kobe ever did. Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Amar'e, LeBron and the Celtics big 3 is more help than Shaq and Gasol.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron? The same guy who made the decision AND choked the same year? Then left to rejoin the Cavs?
I'll give you 2003 for Duncan but 05, 07 and 14? Please
Shaq? He's had more help than Kobe ever did. Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Amar'e, LeBron and the Celtics big 3 is more help than Shaq and Gasol.

Please don't put Kobe in the same sentence as Lebron :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

And then there was REALITY...

Gasol didn't even win a playoff game before Kobe arrived. And how about 2013 after Kobe was injured and missed the playoffs... swept in the first round, and by an average margin of 18.3 ppg. Yep...he was sure a force wasn't he?

BTW, how did Pau do in the '11 and '12 playoffs? How about 13 and 12 ppg on .420 and .434 shooting.

Shaq struggled against SA in their post-season H2H's, and Kobe was clearly the Lakers BEST player in the majority of those series (BTW, better than Duncan and Robinson, as well.) Shaq doesn't win a ring in '01 and '02 without Kobe carrying LA into the Finals. And in '08, with Shaq long gone, Kobe DESTROYED the Spurs.

Shaq withOUT Kobe in his career... ONE ring, and that was as a SIDEKICK. Kobe withOUT Shaq? TWO rings, and in BOTH, he was CLEARLY the man.

Oh, and Shaq was SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career, too.

Bynum didn't do shit in their back-to-back title runs. In those two playoff runs... 7 ppg and 5 rpg.

Odom? A career loser without Kobe, and basically worthless since.

Kobe is CLEARLY a Top-10 player all-time, and only an idiot would think otherwise.

[tontoz]

For his career Kobe attempted 4 threes a game shooting 33.3%. He has had bad shot selection his whole career. It is just more obvious now.

[Darius]

It's because his play this season validates his long legacy of arrogant selfishness.

Teams play as real teams now. Kobe is a relic of the past

[LAZERUSS]

It's because his play this season validates his long legacy of arrogant selfishness.

Teams play as real teams now. Kobe is a relic of the past

You mean ONE team plays as a team...the Spurs.

The rest of the NBA is still super-star driven.

[ImKobe]

It's because his play this season validates his long legacy of arrogant selfishness.

Teams play as real teams now. Kobe is a relic of the past

Oh, so prior to Kobe's achilles injury, teams didn't play as real teams?

stop with the revisionist history and just accept that dude's way past his prime and isn't going to be as good in the same situation he dropped 30+ points a night a damn decade ago.

[KobesFinger]

Please don't put Kobe in the same sentence as Lebron :roll:

Did Kobe ever have two other all stars in their primes? Did Kobe force people to change their games to accommodate him? Did Kobe in his prime lose FMVP to the opposing player at his position?

No, no and no

[LAZERUSS]

Oh, so prior to Kobe's achilles injury, teams didn't play as real teams?

stop with the revisionist history and just accept that dude's way past his prime and isn't going to be as good in the same situation he dropped 30+ points a night a damn decade ago.

He was dropping 30 ppg in the playoffs just three years ago, and if you remove his first three years as a part-timer, he would be close to 30 ppg in his post-season career. He is certainly one of the greatest pure scorers in NBA post-season history.

[ImKobe]

Did Kobe ever have two other all stars in their primes? Did Kobe force people to change their games to accommodate him? Did Kobe in his prime lose FMVP to the opposing player at his position?

No, no and no

I think he meant that Lebron is not worthy of being in the same sentence as The Great One, because he's short 3 rings.

[Mr Feeny]

Did Kobe ever have two other all stars in their primes? Did Kobe force people to change their games to accommodate him? Did Kobe in his prime lose FMVP to the opposing player at his position?

No, no and no

Having Shaq >>>>>> Bosh and Wade
PHIL >>>> Spolsestra

Don't play this game man:cheers:

[ImKobe]

He was dropping 30 ppg in the playoffs just three years ago, and if you remove his first three years as a part-timer, he would be close to 30 ppg in his post-season career. He is certainly one of the greatest pure scorers in NBA post-season history.

Most definitely. I meant the situation he was in, where he had a poor supporting cast (when Shaq was traded in 04). He's tried to be his old self this season, but those shots are not falling at his age and he's not as well conditioned.

Dude was putting up 27/6/6 a game on good efficiency just a year and a half ago.

[Mr Feeny]

I think he meant that Lebron is not worthy of being in the same sentence as The Great One, because he's short 3 rings.

MJ? He's 4 short:cheers:
4 f MVPs and 1 mvp behind. Might catch up or might not. Either way, YARDS ahead of Kobrick:lol

[Mr Feeny]

Most definitely. I meant the situation he was in, where he had a poor supporting cast (when Shaq was traded in 04). He's tried to be his old self this season, but those shots are not falling at his age and he's not as well conditioned.

Dude was putting up 27/6/6 a game on good efficiency just a year and a half ago.

46%fg when you have Dwight and Pau taking the d attention is not good efficency lmao.

Good efficiency is 48%fg and upwards, something Kobe has never done in his career:lol

[Dro]

Kobe detractors had to wait until he was in his 19th season and coming off two major injuries to start ripping on him because they ran out of material when he won FMVP in 09.

Cowardly, really.
This has nothing to do with him gunning and freezing out his teammates, berating them in practice, etc. I was defending Kobe at the start of the year for being the old guy and still showing that he could hang with the new guys. He was the underdog. Now, I can't defend him any more. And this is coming from a non-Laker fan who watched almost every Laker game this year just to see how Kobe would do. I really wanted him to prove his doubters wrong but he hasn't done that at all lately......

[ImKobe]

MJ? He's 4 short:cheers:
4 f MVPs and 1 mvp behind. Might catch up or might not. Either way, YARDS ahead of Kobrick:lol

Kobe's 1 ring short of catching MJ. Regular season MVPs are :sleeping

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe's 1 ring short of catching MJ. Regular season MVPs are :sleeping

Rings are team accomplishments :(
Kobe is 2 behind Horry. Let him catch Horry:(

He's never catching Lebron's 6 combined MVPs :applause:

[ImKobe]

Rings are team accomplishments :(
Kobe is 2 behind Horry. Let him catch Horry:(

He's never catching Lebron's 6 combined MVPs :applause:

Kobe's 2001 & 2002 Playoff performances > Any of Lebron's regular season MVPs.

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe's 2001 & 2002 Playoff performances > Any of Lebron's regular season MVPs.er. ...nah.

Mr sub 47%fg shooter in every season of his career is not in the same breath as the KING babyyyyy.

6 combined MVPs vs 3!!
Ooohss

[KobesFinger]

Having Shaq >>>>>> Bosh and Wade
PHIL >>>> Spolsestra

Don't play this game man:cheers:

Shaq > Wade and Shaq > Bosh but both combined? 22/5/5 and 17/7 in the 4 years? And both played great D and could play in the 4th

[LAZERUSS]

46%fg when you have Dwight and Pau taking the d attention is not good efficency lmao.

Good efficiency is 48%fg and upwards, something Kobe has never done in his career:lol

Of course, just forget about his 2pt FG% that year, which was at .510.

Or that Kobe's career eFG% is .485.

As for Howard and Gasol in 2012-13? How did they do without Kobe in the post-season? They were SWEPT by the Spurs, and by an average margin of 18.3 ppg.

Yep, Kobe sure depended on those two, didn't he?

[ArbitraryWater]

konex curse.. Kobe will be sick in no time

[Mr Feeny]

Of course, just forget about his 2pt FG% that year, which was at .510.

Or that Kobe's career eFG% is .485.

As for Howard and Gasol in 2012-13? How did they do without Kobe in the post-season? They were SWEPT by the Spurs, and by an average margin of 18.3 ppg.

Yep, Kobe sure depended on those two, didn't he?

An 48%efg is not good you bellend:oldlol:
What does the 2013 lakers team failing to reach the second round have to do with anything? They huffed and puffed and we're on their way to 8th/lottery before Pau had two huge games to finish off the regular season. What point are we making here?

How's Mr 18 ppg in the finals:lol

[LAZERUSS]

An 48%efg is not good you bellend:oldlol:
What does the 2013 lakers team failing to reach the second round have to do with anything? They huffed and puffed and we're on their way to 8th/lottery before Pau had two huge games to finish off the regular season. What point are we making here?

How's Mr 18 ppg in the finals:lol

Wilt outshot his opposing HOF centers in his SIX Finals by a .559 to .439 margin (oh, and in post-season NBA's that shot an average eFG% of about .440.)

Yeah...let's forget Kobe playing the last six games of that year, and before being injured and missing the last two...

Playing 46 mpg, averaging 34 ppg, and leading his team to a 5-1 record in those six games.

And again, withOUT Kobe in the playoffs...Gasol and Howard meekly led the Lakers to slaughter... a 4-0 sweeping series loss, and every game a blowout loss.

As for Kobe's eFG%...

In his post-season career... .480. How about Bird? .485. And Kobe was a better scorer, and had a higher 3PT%, too. Oh, and how about 2pt% in their post-season careers? Kobe ... .476....Bird... .472.

Damn, Bird was worthless in the post-season, wasn't he?

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq > Wade and Shaq > Bosh but both combined? 22/5/5 and 17/7 in the 4 years? And both played great D and could play in the 4th

You can't compare one guy against 2 :facepalm

Shaq andddddd *insert any player you want* Rick Fox, vs. 2012-2014 Wade/Bosh? I think you'd be pretty dumb to take Wade/Bosh, here... you know that, too.

Stop trying to make it look like LeBron had it easier winning with past prime Wade than Kobe with the most dominant ever at his peak, Shaquille O'Neal, clown.

[Mr Feeny]

Wilt outshot his opposing HOF centers in his SIX Finals by a .559 to .439 margin.

Yeah...let's forget Kobe playing the last six games of that year, and before being injured and missing the last two...

Playing 46 mpg, averaging 34 ppg, and leading his team to a 5-1 record in those six games.

And again, withOUT Kobe in the playoffs...Gasol and Howard mekly led the Lakers to slaughter... a 4-0 sweeping series loss, and every game a blowout loss.

As for Kobe's eFG%...

In his post-season career... .480. How about Bird? .485. And Kobe was a better scorer, and had a higher 3PT%, too.

Damn, Bird was worthless in the post-season, wasn't he?

Why are we selecting arbitrary number of games to look at? What was the Lakers record and their standing going into that gs game in which he got injured?
That's right. ...avoid that:oldlol:

And please don't waste your energy arguing that an 18 ppg scorer in the finals is not a choker:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol dude come on. Cowardly Kobe detractors? Does it really need to be said that Kobe is a legend? Sure there are plenty of trolls afoot but let's be real. No one is going to begin every discussion with:

"Pardon me good sirs. Let me broach the subject of Kobe Bryant, who I must say is one of the greatest to ever lace them up. Before I begin, may I state that Mr. Bryant is indeed an all time great? I steadfastly insist he is one of the greatest SGs of all time. I shall preface this discussion by postulating that his 2xFMVP and 5 rings, 16x all stars, and 11 NBA first teams does quite undoubtedly cement his status as a generational talent.

Now, with that stated, perchance may I opine about his questionable shot selection and pernicious conduct on the court as of recent happenstance?"


Kobe is acting a fool this season. He looks bad and the stats show he's a major detriment to the team. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to appease kobestans in order to make an objective remark about his play, which has been terrible so far.

Basically. Heavincent acting a fool right now, saying the same shit over and over in every KB thread "Kobe haters waited this long!!!" and then in the next post admits they've been doing detracting his flaws his entire career :lol


I could care less about Kobe but don't you dare use Lebron James as an example of one who spearheaded a relatively decent team to championship glory. We're talking about a guy who is infamous for the leagues most prolific instance of collusion.

Feel free to make your point against Kobe's legacy but at least validate your opinions with truthful facts.

Yeah, you forgot something there..

We're also talking about a guy who made the finals with Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, and Illgauskas....

Larry Hughes was his SECOND OPTION in the playoffs, and the worst shooting second option on a finals team ever... Shot 34.7% for the playoffs.


Shaq > Wade and Shaq > Bosh but both combined? 22/5/5 and 17/7 in the 4 years? And both played great D and could play in the 4th

You can't compare one guy against 2 :facepalm

Shaq andddddd *insert any player you want* Rick Fox, vs. 2012-2014 Wade/Bosh? I think you'd be pretty dumb to take Wade/Bosh, here... you know that, too.

Stop trying to make it look like LeBron had it easier winning with past prime Wade than Kobe with the most dominant ever at his peak, Shaquille O'Neal, clown.


Dude, please.......:rolleyes:


How many times do we constantly get reminded of "Five Rangz" here on ISH? Or the "count down to passing Jordan" threads, or the 30k/6k/6k club (right there, under your name), etc.?

When a player who has a rep of being great but plays like total crap at the expense of his teammates, it's gonna get noticed here, no matter who the player is. Kobe Stans are hands down the most sensitive bunch to player criticism of anybody on any sports message board, period. Ironic, considering how "great" we are constantly reminded that he is.

And of course, the one moment that his team has any chemistry or success without him, Kobe fans begin the "whine brigade", because they never want either kobe or themselves to be wrong about anything.

bam


Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

double bam

[STATUTORY]

You can't compare one guy against 2 :facepalm

Shaq andddddd *insert any player you want* Rick Fox, vs. 2012-2014 Wade/Bosh? I think you'd be pretty dumb to take Wade/Bosh, here... you know that, too.

Stop trying to make it look like LeBron had it easier winning with past prime Wade than Kobe with the most dominant ever at his peak, Shaquille O'Neal, clown.

Lebron+Wade+Bosh playing against a weak and injury depleted east with no other stacked team is pretty different from Kobe+shaq besting Portland, Sacramento, Spurs, Timberwolves etc

The only good team Lebron and Co beat is the spurs team cause of Ray Allen

[LAZERUSS]

Why are we selecting arbitrary number of games to look at? What was the Lakers record and their standing going into that gs game in which he got injured?
That's right. ...avoid that:oldlol:

And please don't waste your energy arguing that an 18 ppg scorer in the finals is not a choker:roll:

An arbitrary number of games? Kobe carried that team all season long. Sorry, but Gasol and Dwight were along for the ride, while Kobe was putting up a 27-6-6 season on a solid efficiency. We saw the REAL value of Gasol and Dwight (and withOUT Kobe) in the playoffs... PURE SHIT.

Chamberlain the "choker" won a FMVP in a Finals in which he averaged 19 ppg (23 rpg, .600 FG%, and 7.4 bpg...including a series-clinching 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocked shots.)

And he would have won a unanimous FMVP in '67 had the award existed, in a Finals in which he "only" averaged 17.5 ppg (as well as 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%.) BTW, h just crushed a PEAK Thurmond in that Finals in every facet of the game, too. Just ask a PEAK Kareem about Thurmond. In KAJ's greatest season, 71-72, in his playoff series H2H with Nate, he was outscored by Thurmond, 25 ppg to 23 ppg, and outshot from the floor by Nate by a .437 to .405 margin.

Th reality was, you can't find a playoff SERIES, much less a Finals, in which Wilt "choked."

[ArbitraryWater]

An arbitrary number of games? Kobe carried that team all season long. Sorry, but Gasol and Dwight were along for the ride, while Kobe was putting up a 27-6-6 season on a solid efficiency. We saw the REAL value of Gasol and Dwight (and withOUT Kobe) in the playoffs... PURE SHIT.

Chamberlain the "choker" won a FMVP in a Finals in which he averaged 19 ppg (23 rpg, .600 FG%, and 7.4 bpg...including a series-clinching 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocked shots.)

And he would have won a unanimous FMVP in '67 had the award existed, in a Finals in which he "only" averaged 17.5 ppg (as well as 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%.) BTW, h just crushed a PEAK Thurmond in that Finals in every facet of the game, too. Just ask a PEAK Kareem about Thurmond. In KAJ's greatest season, 71-72, in his playoff series H2H with Nate, he was outscored by Thurmond, 25 ppg to 23 ppg, and outshot from the floor by Nate by a .437 to .405 margin.

Th reality was, you can't find a playoff SERIES, much less a Finals, in which Wilt "choked."

http://i.imgur.com/a5koHpK.gif

It wasn't much to begin with, but jlauber just lost ALL his credibility :lol

[LAZERUSS]

http://i.imgur.com/a5koHpK.gif

It wasn't much to begin with, but jlauber just lost ALL his credibility :lol

Of course, you didn't address ANY of MY points, did you?

Why? Because you CAN'T.

GTFO you idiot.

[ArbitraryWater]

old man getting frantic :lol

[LAZERUSS]

old man getting frantic :lol

Well...I'm waiting.

Instead of posting gibberish, why don't you actually contribute some real knowledge here?

[ArbitraryWater]

"Wilt never choked"

dat knowledge http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/kobe.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

"Wilt never choked"

dat knowledge http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/kobe.jpg

Go ahead...give SOME examples of Wilt "choking." And I want RPG, FG%, APG, BPG...AND, also how his OPPOSING CENTERS fared against him (most all of whom are in the HOF BTW.)

[ArbitraryWater]

Go ahead...give SOME examples of Wilt "choking." And I want RPG, FG%, APG, BPG...AND, also how his OPPOSING CENTERS fared against him (most all of whom are in the HOF BTW.)

Wilt Chamberlain's choking resume

1962 Divisional Finals
In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1964 NBA Finals
Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1968 Divisional Finals
1968 Sixers had a 3-1 series lead over the Celtics after winning 3 games in a row. Led by Chamberlain, they managed to lose the next 3 games in a row, with HCA, costing them the series and a potential repeat championship.

Here are Wilt's stats in games 6 and 7.

Game 6 (L 106-114)
20 points 6-21 FG
8-23 FT

Game 7 (L 96-100)
14 points 4-9 FG
6-15 FT

Combined 10-30 FG and 14-38 FT in games 6 and 7. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points.

From 1968-1970 Wilt Chamberlain lost 3 straight game 7s.
In 1968 blowing a 3-1 series lead over the Celtics in the EDF, in 1969 blowing a 2-0 and 3-2 series to Boston in the Finals, and in 1970 losing to the New York Knicks in the Finals.

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

Wilt had 45 in game 6 with Reed out and in game 7 Reed was hurt and played 15mins. or something, so his matchup once again was reserve NATE BOWMAN!
Wilt should have DOMINATED! No Excuses!

In fact, In 1972 Wilt got lucky that the Knicks played without the injured Willis Reed.
Otherwise he'd probably end up with nothing to show for again.

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.
Wilt scored 5 points in both game 2 and 3, averaged 12 ppg for the series.

Also Wilt had 3 teammates average at least 20 ppg for the series!

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

Lakers without Wilt: 90/124 FT (72.6%)
Wilt: 14/38 FT (38.6%)

[Leviathon1121]

An arbitrary number of games? Kobe carried that team all season long. Sorry, but Gasol and Dwight were along for the ride, while Kobe was putting up a 27-6-6 season on a solid efficiency. We saw the REAL value of Gasol and Dwight (and withOUT Kobe) in the playoffs... PURE SHIT.

Chamberlain the "choker" won a FMVP in a Finals in which he averaged 19 ppg (23 rpg, .600 FG%, and 7.4 bpg...including a series-clinching 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocked shots.)

And he would have won a unanimous FMVP in '67 had the award existed, in a Finals in which he "only" averaged 17.5 ppg (as well as 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%.) BTW, h just crushed a PEAK Thurmond in that Finals in every facet of the game, too. Just ask a PEAK Kareem about Thurmond. In KAJ's greatest season, 71-72, in his playoff series H2H with Nate, he was outscored by Thurmond, 25 ppg to 23 ppg, and outshot from the floor by Nate by a .437 to .405 margin.

Th reality was, you can't find a playoff SERIES, much less a Finals, in which Wilt "choked."

Harden is having no trouble at all playing alongside just Dwight, nevermind Gasol as well, what was Kobe's problem?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt Chamberlain's choking resume

1962 Divisional Finals
In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1964 NBA Finals
Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1968 Divisional Finals
1968 Sixers had a 3-1 series lead over the Celtics after winning 3 games in a row. Led by Chamberlain, they managed to lose the next 3 games in a row, with HCA, costing them the series and a potential repeat championship.

Here are Wilt's stats in games 6 and 7.

Game 6 (L 106-114)
20 points 6-21 FG
8-23 FT

Game 7 (L 96-100)
14 points 4-9 FG
6-15 FT

Combined 10-30 FG and 14-38 FT in games 6 and 7. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points.

From 1968-1970 Wilt Chamberlain lost 3 straight game 7s.
In 1968 blowing a 3-1 series lead over the Celtics in the EDF, in 1969 blowing a 2-0 and 3-2 series to Boston in the Finals, and in 1970 losing to the New York Knicks in the Finals.

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

Wilt had 45 in game 6 with Reed out and in game 7 Reed was hurt and played 15mins. or something, so his matchup once again was reserve NATE BOWMAN!
Wilt should have DOMINATED! No Excuses!

In fact, In 1972 Wilt got lucky that the Knicks played without the injured Willis Reed.
Otherwise he'd probably end up with nothing to show for again.

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.
Wilt scored 5 points in both game 2 and 3, averaged 12 ppg for the series.

Also Wilt had 3 teammates average at least 20 ppg for the series!

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

Lakers without Wilt: 90/124 FT (72.6%)
Wilt: 14/38 FT (38.6%)

One-by-one...

61-62 ECF's

Chamberlain not only managed to have TWO games of 40+, in one of them he outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him in that same game, 37-20, while outshooting Russell from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14.. With all of that, his TEAM won the game by a 113-106 margin.

Chamberlain took what had been the core of the same basic LAST PLACE roster he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record that season. Meanwhile, Russell and his SIX other HOF teammates went 60-20.

During the regular season, Chamberlain averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 against Russell in ten H2H games, in an NBA season in which the league averaged 118.8 ppg and on .426 shooting.

In the ECF's, Wilt "declined" all the way down to 33.6 ppg on .468 shooting. Meanwhile, he held Russell, who had shot .457 against the NBA during the regular season, to .399 shooting in that series. Oh, and BTW, the NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting in the '62 playoffs. Chamberlain was WAY over the league average in FG% against Russell in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. Meanwhile, and as was almost ALWAYS the case, Chamberlain held Russell BELOW the league average.

Overall, Wilt's teammates shot .354 in that post-season. His two "HOF' teammates, Arizin and Gola shot .375 and .271 respectively.

With all of that, Wilt carried that putrid roster to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics, and in a series in which his teammates collectively shot...get this... .345 from the field.

Wilt's teammate, Tom Meschery summed it up best, "The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was WILT's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

BTW, Chamberlain shot 58-92 from the line. Russell was at 36-51. So, as always, Wilt nearly DOUBLED Russell's scoring just from the FT line.

FT's matter kids...and Wilt AND his TEAM almost always SCORED more than their opponents. In MANY cases by HUGE margins.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Am i the only one who believes that the lakers beating the warriors had more to do with both of the teams psychology combined with a stroke of luck. rather then the basic move of benching kobe.

think about it. the whole team knows that they just get called scrubs and kobe is the only star. they got given an opportunity to shine and man did they take it they put a tone of more effort into this game then any game they've ever played. there was even a thread about "do the lakers look rejuvinated?"

and the warriors on the other hand just completely discarded the lakers. they were just coasting. playing a scrub team without superstar kobe while having the best record in the west "take it easy guys and nobody get injured we got nothing to prove"

Yes kobe needs to adjust his game but your mad if u think this flash in the pan 100% signifies that this team is better without him.

Nah this team would be WCF bound without Kobe. It's obvious that he's holding them back just like he was holding the team back last season.

[LAZERUSS]

'64...

That was it right? That was the story of the entire series, right?

How about this...

Let's start before the season even began shall we? Wilt was saddled with arguably the worst roster an all-time great ever had to overcome. How bad were they? Their new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, against drfat picks and scrubs. Guess which team won? Hannum was stunned by the fact that those players had become so dependent on Wilt, that they had forgotten how to play the game.

YET, Wilt then single-handedly carried that cast of clowns to a 48-32 record, averaging 36.9 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shooting .524 in the process. BTW, how fast was the "pace" of that NBA? The league averaged 111 ppg on .433 shooting during the regular season...hardly "prolific" (MJ's '87 NBA averaged 109.9 ppg on .480 shooting BTW.)

And, how about the scoring of the NBA playoff teams in that 63-64 post-season? 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting. Keep that mind...

In the first round of the playoffs, and in a seven game series, all Chamberlain could do was to average 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and on .559 shooting! Just staggering numbers considering the "pace" and "efficiency" of that NBA post-season.

Included in those seven games, was a 50 point game, on 22-32 shooting, in game five. Oh, and how did Wilt perform in that game seven. First of all, he held his opposing center, Zelmo Beaty (who would go on to become a multiple all-star) to 10 points. AND, Wilt "the choker" put up a 39 point, 26 rebound, 10 block game.

That setup the Finals, in which Wilt would take as bad a roster as a man has ever had in the post-season, up against Russell, in arguably his greatest season (his defensive win shares was an all-time record that season), and the Celtic Dynasty.

Oh, and BTW, the Celtics had an 8-3 edge in HOFers, too. In fact, Wilt's lone "HOF" teammates were rookie Nate Thurmond, who was playing part-time, out of position (obviously he would become a great center after Wilt), and who would shoot .395 during the regular season, and Guy Rodgers, who was the worst in league history until Rubio came along..

So, the real question would have been...aside from Thurmond (who once again was a part-timer, and playing out of position), just where would Chamberlain's best teammate, Tom Meschery, who would average 13.5 ppg, 7.7 rpg, and shoot .458...have been camped at on the Celtic bench.

As for the rest of Wilt's teammates? Wayne Hightower, who averaged 13.2 ppg on .385 shooting. Guy Rodgers, who was arguably the WORST shooter of ALL-TIME, who averaged 11.0 ppg on .365 shooting. And hard-nosed Al Attles, who was at 10.9 ppg on .452 shooting. As bad as those guys were...the rest were just awful. Gary Phillips? He shot .370. The legendary Gary Hill averaged 5.1 ppg on .380 shooting. George Lee shot .379. And John Windsor shot .370. And go ahead and look those guys up. None of them played any better with, or without Chamberlain in their careers, and in fact, Attles and Meschery had their best seasons with Wilt.

So, while Chamberlain was shooting .524 from the floor, how about his teammates? They collectively shot .402. BUT, then in the post-season, while Chamberlain was shooting .543, his teammates collectively shot .382.

Back to the Finals. You have read about Wilt's roster. Now, how about that Celtic roster? Satch Sanders and KC Jones...both considered the best defenders at their positions in the league at the time (and while neither should be there...both in the HOF.) Clyle Lovellette, who is in the HOF, and who was a 20 ppg scorer just the year before he played with Boston. Obviously, with that roster, he couldn't even start. Frank Ramsey, who was among the best "6th men" in his career. Then came the heavy hitters. Tom Heinsohn, John Havlicek, and Sam Jones.

Ok, Boston would win that Finals, 4-1. No surprise there, of course. BUT, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds, when Boston won by margins of 3 and 6 points.

How did the Russell-Wilt H2H's go?

Russell averaged 11.2 ppg, 25.2 ppg, and shot .386 from the field. BTW, he also went 12-25 from the line.

Meanwhile, all Wilt could do was to average 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, and shot .517 (once again, in a post-season in which the NBA shot .420.) Oh, and he shot 22-48 from the line. So, Russell outshot Wilt from the line by a .480 to .458 margin, BUT, Wilt outscored Russell from line, as he ALWAYS did, by a 22-12 margin (again...nearly DOUBLE.)

Game 1:

Russell 3-8 from the floor, 3-6 from the line, 9 points, and 25 rebounds.
Wilt 9-20 from the floor, 4-12 from the line, 22 points, and 23 rebounds.

Game 2:

Russell 4-10, 1-4, 9 points, 24 rebounds
Wilt 14-27, 4-9, 32 points, 25 rebounds

Game 3:

Russell 7-19, 2-5, 16 points, 32 rebs
Wilt 15-22, 5-11, 35 points, 25 rebs

Game 4:

Russell 3-9, 2-5, 8 pts, 19 rebs
Wilt 12-23, 3-8, 27 pts, 38 rebs

Game 5:

Russell 5-11, 4-5, 14 pts, 26 rebs
Wilt 12-28, 6-13, 30 pts, 27 rebs.

As usual, in a "must-win" situation, Chamberlain put up a 30-27 game.

Chamberlain "the choker."

Now, swap those rosters, and does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that Russell would have led that inept cast to a title? And given the fact that Wilt proved he could adapt to whatever his coach's would have asked, that Chamberlain's "Celtics" would not have just blown Russell's "Warriors" away?

[LAZERUSS]

'65? This is truly laughable...

Yep. One poor game by Wilt's standards was the reason his TEAM lost a game seven, by one point. Oh, and he shot 6-13 from the line in game seven, but let's ignore his 12-15 from the field.

A little background. Wilt was traded at mid-season (the Warriors feared he had a heart condition and panicked) to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before. Chamberlain's impact was immediate, but then injuries slowed him for a period. Philly would finish 40-40 and slide into the playoffs.

Incidently, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the season. How much effect did that have on Wilt? In his 63-64 season, Chamberlain averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting. At the mid-way point in the 64-65 season, an ill Wilt was averaging 38.9 ppg on .499 shooting. With his new team, and a better supporting cast, he "only" averaged 30.1 ppg on .528 shooting (remember those numbers), and overall, he finished the season at 34.7 ppg on .510 shooting.

Wilt carried his 40-40 Sixers past the 48-32 Royals in a first round, 3-1, romp.

That set up the ECF's, in which Chamberlain's massive underdog Sixers would face a Celtic team at it's PEAK. Boston had rolled to a 62-18 record, which was their best season in the "Dynasty" run. Their 62-18 mark was miles ahead of the next best record in the league (Los Angeles, at 49-31.)

Shockingly, the series went to a seventh game, and in Boston. The Celtics appeared to have the game won, leading 110-101 with a little over two minutes remaining. Chamberlain then scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with five secs left to pull within 110-109.

The "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, and a stunned Boston crowd was on the verge of perhaps witnessing the biggest upset in playoff history.

However, as happened so often in the Russell-Wilt battles, another Boston player stepped up, and saved the Celtics. "Havlicek stole the ball."

To his credit, Russell played well in that seventh game. He scored 15 points, on 7-16 from the field, and 1-2 from the line. He also grabbed 29 rebounds, handed out 8 assists, and had six blocks.

But to claim that Wilt "choked" in that game is akin to claiming that MJ choked in his 63 point OT playoff game loss. Wilt scored 30 points (and once again, six of them in the last two minutes), on 12-15 shooting (yes, .800 shooting from the field), and 6-13 from the line (here again, 2-2 late, though.) He also added 32 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 1 assist.

So, the "Wilt-bashers" will claim that Russell's 1-2 from the line WON the game, and Wilt's 6-13 from the line, LOST the game. More on that in a moment.

Thanks to Julizaver, we have the Russell-Wilt H2H's in that seven game series:



Quote:


Game 1 - 04.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 48 min 33 points (13-22 FG and 7/12 FT) 31 rebs, 3 assists
Russell 48 min 11 points (5-13 FG and 1/5 FT) 32 rebounds, 6 assists

Game 2 - 06.04.1965 - Phila win

Chamberlain 48 min 30 points (12-19 FG and 6/9 FT) 39 rebs, 8 assists, 8 blocks
Russell 48 min 12 points (5-12 FG and 2/3 FT) 16 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 blocks

Game 3 - 08.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 48 min 24 points (7-21 FG and 10/15 FT) 37 rebs, 1 assist, 1 steal
Russell 48 min 19 points (9-17 FG and 1/4 FT) 26 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals

Game 4 - 09.04.1965 - Phila win

Chamberlain 53 min 34 points (11-24 FG and 12/20 FT) 34 rebs, 3 assists
Russell 52 min 18 points (8-19 FG and 2/7 FT) 25 rebounds

Game 5 - 11.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 30 points (13-23 FG and 4/8 FT) 21 rebs, 2 assists, 2 blocks
Russell 12 points (4-7 FG and 4/5 FT) 28 rebounds, 7 assists, 12 blocks, 3 steals

Game 6 - 13.04.1965 - Phila win

Chamberlain 48 min 30 points (13-22 FG and 4/8 FT) 26 rebs, 4 assists, 6 blocks *at least
Russell 22 points (8-19 FG and 6/10 FT) 21 rebounds, 5 assists

Game 7 - 15.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 48 min 30 points (12-15 FG and 6/13 FT) 32 rebs, 2 assists, 1 block
Russell 15 points (7-16 FG and 1/2 FT) 29 rebounds, 8 assists, 6 blocks


The series averages:

W. Chamberlain - 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg 55.48 FG % and 58.33 FT%
B. Russell - 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, 6.5* apg 44.67 FG % and 47.22 FT %

* no data available for Game 4, so averages for 6 games



As you can see, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in nearly every facet of the game. But a couple of other interesting facts, too. Once again, after the Sixers acquired Wilt, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, .528 from the field, and .526 from the line.

Now, look at his numbers in the ECF's: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 from the field, and even .583 from the line. Where was the Wilt who supposedly SHRANK in the post-season?

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's .583 FT% easily topped Russell's .472 (and, obviously, he just crushed Russell from the field, .555 to .447.) Incidently, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain OUTSCORED Russell from the line in that series, 49-17.

One other point, in reference to Sam Jones (who indeed killed Wilt's title hopes in several post-seasons), Wilt was the HIGH scorer in that series. Just as he was in their '60, '62, '64, '66, and '67 H2H's (if you can possibly compare Wilt and Jones as a "H2H.")

Just another example of Wilt "the choker." ONLY Chamberlain could be considered a "choker" when taking a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 team, and in the process outscoring his opposing center by a 30-16 ppg margin; outrebounding his opposing center, 31-25 rpg; outshooting his opposing center from the field, .555 to .447; and even outshooting his opposing center from the line, .583 to .472.

[KobesFinger]

Lets not make this about Wilt


You can't compare one guy against 2 :facepalm

Shaq andddddd *insert any player you want* Rick Fox, vs. 2012-2014 Wade/Bosh? I think you'd be pretty dumb to take Wade/Bosh, here... you know that, too.

Stop trying to make it look like LeBron had it easier winning with past prime Wade than Kobe with the most dominant ever at his peak, Shaquille O'Neal, clown.

So Rick Fox is better than Bosh or Wade now? I only compared Shaq because Feeny mentioned him.

Wade and Bosh were better than Gasol and Odom too. And the teams the 08-10 Lakers played in the Finals runs were better than the ones the Heat faced.

[LAZERUSS]

'65-66:

Russell vs. Wilt in 5 EDF games:

Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 5.7 apg , .423 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.0 apg , .509 FG%

Wilt held a 4-1 scoring margin, including margins of 31-11, and 46-18. He also had a 4-1 rebounding advantage, including a margin of 32-18.

Game-by-game:

Game 1:

Russell: 13 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 5-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 25 points, 32 rbounds, 5 assists, 9-19 FG/FGA

Game 2:

Russell: 10 pts, 29 rebs, 9 ast, 3-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 23 pts, 25 rebs, 2 ast, 9-21 FG/FGA

Game 3:

Russell: 11 pts, 23 rebs, 3 ast, 4-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 31 pts, 27 rbs, 4 ast, 12-22 FG/FGA

Game 4:

Russell: 18 pts, 30 rebs, 7 ast, 7-15 FG/FGA
Wilt: 15 pts, 33 rebs, 3 ast, 7-14 FG/FGA

BTW:

Newspaper recaps credited Wilt with SINGLE-HANDEDLY keeping his team in the series with his effort in that game.


Game 5:

Russell: 18 pts, 31 rbs, 6 ast, 6-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 46 pts, 34 rbs, 1 ast, 19-34 FG/FGA


Oh, and whilee Chamberlain shot .509 from the floor in this series...how about his teammates? They collectively shot... get this... .352!

[LAZERUSS]

'68 EDF's...

Russell vs Wilt in EDF's 7 H2H's:

Russell: 13.7 ppg, 23.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, .440 FG%.
Wilt: 22.1 ppg, 25.1 rpg, 6.7 apg, .487 FG%.

Again, this was simply no contest until game's 6 and 7. In the first fiv games, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 24.2 ppg to 13.3 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 23.0 rpg to 22.0 rpg; outassisted Russell, 6.8 apg to 5.4 apg, and outshot Russell, .539 to .416. Overall, Wilt outscored Russell, 6-1; outrebounded Russell, 4-3; and outassisted Russell, 6-0-1. Chamberlain had scoring highs of 33, 28, 23, 22, while Russell had highs of 24, and 17 points. Wilt had high rebounding games of 34, 30, and 27. Russell's high rebounding games were 31, 26, and 24.


How did the SIXERS lose that series?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

As you can see, they were DECIMATED by injuries, including Wilt, himself.



However, Boston, as always, had considerably more depth, while the Sixers, who had a short rotation in their regular season, were already down a key player in Cunningham. Still, after sleep-walking thru game one, the Sixers found themselves down 1-0. You couldn't blame Wilt, though, as he just abused Russell in that game. He outscored Russell, 33-11 (on 14-24 shooting), and outrebounded Russell, 25-22, and outassisted Russell, 5-4.

Even without Cunningham, the Sixers managed to forge a 3-1 series lead. After game four, even Auerbach all but conceded ("Its too bad because people will forget just how great he [Russell] has been.")

The Sixers were going home, and leading 3-1. Most observers declared the series over. And a hobbled Wilt was determined to finish them, too. He just torched Russell in game five. He outscored him, 28-8, outrebounded him, 30-24, outassisted him, 7-4, and outshot him, 11-21 to 4-10. Alas, with the score 81-79, the Sixers suffered not one, but TWO damaging injuries. Both PF Luke Jackson, and SG Wali Jones went down with leg injuries. Boston pulled away in the 4th quarter, and suddenly they had new life, and heading back to Boston.

Clearly, though, Chamberlain had OWNED Russell up to that point in that series. He outplayed, or downright waxed Russell in the first five games of that series. Collectively, he had outscored Russell by a 24.2 ppg to 13.2 ppg margin; outrebounded Russell by a 23.0 rpg to 22.0 rpg margin; outassisted Russell by a 7.8 to 3.8 apg margin; and outshot Russell by a staggering .539 to .416 margin. Russell was hanging on for dear life.

Both Jones and Jackson made a go of it in game six, but Jackson only scored 10 points, and Jones didn't score a point. To make matters worse, Wilt was now on his last legs. He played one of the worst games of his post-season career (still a 20 point, 27 rebound game BTW), when he shot a horrid 6-21 from the field, and an awful 8-23 from the line. As bad as he played (and Russell finally outplayed him with a 17-31-5 game), the Sixers valiantly hung in, and only lost by eight points.

It was now deadlocked at 3-3, and heading back to Philly. The Sixers were DECIMATED by injuries, and even Greer, who had played brilliantly in game six, with 40 points, was now hurting.

The proud Celtics, riding a wave of momentum, jumped out to a solid lead, and never relinguished it. The Sixers, who had rode outside shooting, and devastating fast break all season, suddenly went cold from the outside, and incredibly, did not score one fast break basket the entire game. Philly started out misfiring to the tune of 12-49 from the field, and never recovered. They fought to the end, though, before finally falling, 100-96.

Of course, Wilt took the brunt of the blame, despite his injuries. Even Russell said, "A lessor man would not have played", which of course meant, that virtually NO ONE else would have played under the same circumstances. Wilt took a total of NINE shots in the game, and only TWO shots in the second half. However, it was clearly not WILT's doing. Normally Wilt touched the ball some 15 times per quarter during the season. In game seven, he touched the ball at the offensive end a TOTAL of NINE times in the second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter (and both of those were on offensive rebounds.) His teammates had completely forgotten about him. And while Chamberlain was going 4-9 from the field...Greer shot 8-25; Walker and the injured Jones EACH went 8-22; the hobbled Jackson went 7-17; and Matt Guokas went 2-10 off the bench. Wilt's teammates collectively shot .343 in that seventh game...and had ignored Wilt the entire second half.

The Wilt pundits jumped all over Wilt. Why hadn't he demanded the ball? Of course, Chamberlain was in a "no-win" situation. How would it have looked had Wilt, who had been facilitating all season long, suddenly demanded that his teammates give him the ball? The "bashers" would have had a field day with that one, too. They would have said, "that's the REAL Wilt...a selfish ball-hog demanding the ball in the most important game of the season." And the biggest blame had to go to Wilt's coach, Alex Hannum, (a normally brilliant coach BTW), who never once asked Wilt's teammates to get him the damn ball.

In any case, a hobbled Chamberlain did not play poorly. He still pulled down a game high 34 rebounds, all while outscoring Russell, 14-12. But, once again, it was WILT who was ripped, and not his wildly shot-jacking teammates, who once again, puked all over the floor in their biggest game. Of course, they were not really to blame, either, despite their horrendous shooting. The entire team was RAVAGED with injuries, and to be honest, it was a tribute to their overall determination, that they only lost a game seven by four points.

[sportjames23]

Hol' up.

Hol'. Up.

How did we go from Kobe to Wilt in this thread?

[LAZERUSS]

Hol' up.

Hol'. Up.

How did we go from Kobe to Wilt in this thread?

It wasn't ME who brought Wilt into this, but I am certainly going to CRUSH those that do...

[RRR3]

Lets not make this about Wilt



So Rick Fox is better than Bosh or Wade now? I only compared Shaq because Feeny mentioned him.

Wade and Bosh were better than Gasol and Odom too. And the teams the 08-10 Lakers played in the Finals runs were better than the ones the Heat faced.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8826104&postcount=

:confusedshrug:

Bosh also missed games in 2012, and Wade was banged up that year. I'm just sayin. Kobe vs LeBron is a tired subject anyways. They're both legends

[LAZERUSS]

'69 Finals...

Wilt: 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 50.0 %FG
Russell: 9.1 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 5.1 apg on 39.7 %FG


The Lakers were again headed to the Finals. This would be there sixth trip in eight years, and for the first time, they came in as favorites. Why? Because they finally had an answer for Bill Russell.

Not only that, but LA, who had started the playoffs down 0-2, were coming into the Finals with eight wins in their last nine games.

Meanwhile, Boston, which had struggled all season long, and only finished 4th in their conference, were beginning to peak at the right time. They stomped Wilt's former team, the 55-27 Sixers, in the first round, 4-1 (despite Wilt's "replacements" putting up a combined 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and .510 FG% series.) Then, with Russell suddenly rising up offensively, they stunned the favored Knicks, 4-2. Russell, who had only averaged 9.9 ppg during the regular season, elevated his scoring to 16.3 ppg in that series, which included games of 21 and 25 points.

And while virtually no one gave Boston much of a chance going into the Finals, they did have one enormous advantage over LA, and that was depth. They could go go a solid nine deep, and all nine players could be productive (as we would see in the most pivotal game of the series.)

Russell continued to surprise in the post-season, and in game one, he outplayed Wilt, outscoring him, 16-15, and outrebounding Wilt, 27-23. This was totally unexpected, as Chamberlain had owned Russell durihg their six regular season H2H's.

Still, behind West's spectacular 53 points and 10 assists, the Lakers escaped with a game one win, 120-118. And even Baylor had played reasonably well, with 24 points, on 10-21 shooting.

The Lakers took firm control of the series in game two, with a 118-112 win. However, for the second consecutive game, Russell outscored and outrebounded Wilt. West was just brilliant again, with 41 points, and even Baylor played well, pouring in 32 points on a stunning 11-15 shooting.

The Lakers now led the series, 2-0, and heading back to Boston they were poised to win their first ever title in Los Angeles. And while Russell had outplayed Wilt in the first two games, no one expected that trend to continue, and with West playing at an unfathomable level, and Baylor seemingly coming out of his slump, there was now a possibilty of a Laker sweep. And how sweet would that have been for Laker fans, as well as Wilt?

Any thoughts of a sweep went down the drain in game three. Boston rebounded with a 111-105 win. Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell in that loss, outscoring him 16-11, and outrebounding him, 26-18. However, BOTH Baylor and West fell apart in the 4th quarter, shooting a combined 1-14 from the field. Baylor was particularly putrid, scoring 11 points on 4-18 shooting.

Game four would ultimately decide the series. The game was sloppily played throughout, and neither team played well offensively. Still, the Lakers had the lead, 88-87, and the ball, with 15 seconds left. For all of his incompetence, Laker head coach Butch Van Breda Kolff, made one of his two biggest coaching blunders at the worst possible time. Instead of putting the ball into "Mr. Clutch's" hands, he had Johnny Egan holding the fate of the series in his hands, instead. And the result was as expected. Egan was stripped by Em Bryant, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, banked in the game winner at the buzzer. That ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a series romp, and in fact, cost them the title.

Still, it was not all Egan's fault. Only West had played well, with a monster 40 point game on 15-30 from the field, and 10-10 from the line. Wilt had a miserable offensive game, scoring a meager 8 points, on 3-8 from the field, and 2-11 from the line. However, his counterpart, Russell, was no better, as he only scored 6 points on 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line. Furthermore, Wilt outrebounded him, 31-29. No, the real blame lied in the play of Baylor. Baylor scored a pathetic 5 points, on a horrific 2-14 shooting from the field, AND 1-5 from the line.

The Lakers stormed back on their home floor in game five, with a solid 117-104 win. Chamberlain waxed Russell in this game, outscoring him 13-7, and outrebounding him, 31-13. West poured in 39 points, and even Egan finally made a contribution with 23 points. However, Baylor once again struggled, scoring 8 points on 4-13 shooting. In his last three games, Baylor had gone 10-45 from the field, or an unfathomable, ... .222 from the field.

With a chance to wrap up the series back in Boston in game six, Wilt let his team down. He played a lethargic game, and for the third time in the series, Russell outplayed him. Chamberlain scored a meager 8 points on 1-5 from the field, and was outrebounded by Russell, 19-18. West also had his worst game of the series, with 26 points on 9-19 shooting, but Baylor finally snapped back from his horrible slump with a 26 point game, on 9-18 shooting. Boston extended the series to a game seven, with a 99-90 win.

The series headed back to Los Angeles for a game seven...


Laker owner Jack Kent Cooke was so confident that his Lakers would win their first ever title in Los Angeles, that he hung "victory" balloons from the rafters, and had champagne on ice in the dressing room.

If Boston needed an additional motivation, that was it. Russell pointed out the balloons to his teammates, and from the opening tap, the proud Celtics took control of the game. By late in the third period they had opened up a 15 point lead. To make matters even worse, Chamberlain picked up his 5th personal foul before the end of the quarter.

And when Boston extended the lead to 17 with a little over 10 minutes left, all looked bleak for LA. Then Russell picked up HIS 5th personal foul. For all the undeserved criticism Wilt received for his supposed weak play with five fouls, which was just ridiculous, since he seldom even committed even three in a game...how about Russell? Immediately after Russell picked up his 5th foul, the Lakers went into Wilt, who went right around the "matador" defense of Russell for an easy layin.

Alas, with BVK's coaching, Wilt did not receive the ball in the low post again. Shortly after Russell's 5th personal, Sam Jones fouled out. Jones had been brilliant in his final game of his career, with 24 points, on 10-16 shooting. And with Russell in hiding the rest of the game, the Lakers surged back. With six minutes remaining, Wilt grabbed a rebound that led to a fast break basket, and the margin was now nine. However, Chamberlain had landed awkwardly, and injured his knee. He stayed in long enough to grab another rebound, and his outlet to West led to a foul. Wilt had to come out. West hit both FTs, and with deficit was now seven. In a span of a little over four minutes, the Lakers had outscored the Celtics by 10 points. Boston was now clearly running on fumes.

LA continued to cut into the deficit, and with about three minutes remaining, Wilt asked to go back in. Van Breda Kolff would make the worst coaching decision of his career. He kept Wilt on the bench, and instead rode the great Mel f***ing Counts down the stretch. Still, LA cut the margin to 103-102 late. Then, with Counts missing a wide open shot, and then committing a horrible turnover in the last minute, and with Boston getting yet another miracle shot, this time from Don Nelson, the Celtics escaped with a 108-106 win, and yet another bitter defeat for LA.

Chamberlain badly outplayed Russell in the game. He outscored him, 18-6; he outshot him, 7-8 to 2-7; and he outrebounded him, 27-21. And while Wilt was on the bench in the last five minutes of the game, Russell was nowhere to be found in the entire 4th quarter. In fact, Chamberlain, on an injured knee, and in two straight possessions, had matched Russell's entire rebounding for the 4th quarter (and Wilt, playing five minutes less in that period, outrebounded him, 7-2.)

Boston did get great play from Sam Jones, but their real hero was John Havlicek, with his 26 points on 11-19 shooting. And as I pointed out earlier, the Boston "role" players came up huge. Nelson not only hit the game-winner, he kicked in with 16 points. And Em Bryant, one of the heroes in the game four win, poured in 20 points.

Meanwhile on the LA side, there was blame to go all around. West had played brilliantly, as he did the entire series, scoring 42 points, grabbing 13 rebounds, and handing out 12 assists, but even he missed 4 FTs, two in the last period, and overall, shot 14-29 from the field. Of course, no one played worse than Baylor, who shot 8-22 from the field, and overall, "led" LA as their worst shooter in the post-season (.385.)

Of course, the real blame for the Laker loss lay directly on the shoulders of Van Breda Kolff. He repeatedly made coaching blunders the entire series, and his stubborn disdain for Wilt, not only cost LA a title, but basically his coaching career, as well. When West found out what had transpired in the last few minutes, he was furious. VBK quickly "retired" before suffering the embarrassment of a well deserved firing.

Russell, who once again, was a non-factor in the 4th period, shocked Wilt when he claimed that "nothing short of a broken leg would have kept me out", (albeit, he had an injured ankle in the '58 series, and missed two games.) Chamberlain was deeply hurt, and the two did not speak for many years, until Russell finally apologized both in private, and then in public.


Chamberlain's "redemption" would come a few years later, though.

[RRR3]

Wilt>>>>>>>>LeBron and Kobe combined.










Satisfied?

Now hush.

[Eric Cartman]

Lazeruss you know damn well no one is reading that whole thing.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lets not make this about Wilt



So Rick Fox is better than Bosh or Wade now? I only compared Shaq because Feeny mentioned him.

Wade and Bosh were better than Gasol and Odom too. And the teams the 08-10 Lakers played in the Finals runs were better than the ones the Heat faced.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/4OVLKQc.gif

Your reading comprehension is laughable, and you're from England, too..... You trying to look retarded?

[KobesFinger]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/4OVLKQc.gif

Your reading comprehension is laughable, and you're from England, too..... You trying to look retarded?

You either said Shaq is better than both combined or Fox or any other role player from the 3 peat squads is a bettee third option than Bosh. Which is it, because both are stupid. You also didn't address Gasol and Odom vs Wade and Bosh, so miss me with that bs

[LAZERUSS]

'69-70 Finals.

Reed: 23.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg, .483 FG%
Wilt: 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 FG%

Of course, Reed was hailed as a "hero" because he injured his leg in game five (BTW, the Knicks were down by 10 points when he went down), and for "bravely" coming back and "inspiring" his team to a game seven win.

What was lost in all of that, was the FACT that Chamberlain, himself, was only four months removed from MAJOR KNEE surgery, and was nowhere near 100% in that series.

Furthermore, Chamberlain, on one-leg, battled a much healthier Reed to a draw in the first four games of that series.

But how about the last three pivot games?

Chamberlain outscored Reed, 88-11; outrebounded Reed, 71-3; and outshot him, 39-55 (.710) to 4-10 (.400. )

Furthermore, in the clinching game seven, Wilt was the ONLY Laker who played well (21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds.) His teammates collectively shot .333 in the first half, when the game was blown open.

BTW, Wilt went 1-8 from the line in the first half, in a game in which the score was 69-42 at halftime. Had he hit all of his FTs, it wouldn't have made a difference.

But, how about Frazier just wiping the floor with West in that game seven? Nope, no one mentions that. Instead, Wilt gets the blame, despite being only four months removed from major knee surgery, and despite the fact that he was LA's best player in that series.

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss you know damn well no one is reading that whole thing.

Nor do I care.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain NEVER "choked" in his entire playoff career.

Furthermore, how about Wilt in his post-season "MUST-WIN" games...


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds


And then how this...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

THAT was Chamberlain "the choker."

[HOoopCityJones]

LAZERUSS soloing the thread.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS soloing the thread.

I took care of Kobe, as well.

Only complete idiots would bash Kobe's career.

[ArbitraryWater]

You either said Shaq is better than both combined or Fox or any other role player from the 3 peat squads is a bettee third option than Bosh. Which is it, because both are stupid. You also didn't address Gasol and Odom vs Wade and Bosh, so miss me with that bs

Um, no.... still wrong. Shaq/Fox >> Wade/Bosh, and Shaq >>>>> Wade.

Get it, slow one?

And Gasol / Odom vs. Wade / Bosh is a totally different story, but Gasol/Odom produced far more.... more efficiently, more baskets, more defense, more versatility.

[LAZERUSS]

Um, no.... still wrong. Shaq/Fox >> Wade/Bosh, and Shaq >>>>> Wade.

Get it, slow one?

And Gasol / Odom vs. Wade / Bosh is a totally different story, but Gasol/Odom produced far more.... more efficiently, more baskets, more defense, more versatility.

How did Gasol and Odom do in the '11 post-season?

How about Gasol in the '12 post-season?

And again, how did Gasol do in the '13 post-season without Kobe?

PURE SHIT.

[Rooster]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

:facepalm :facepalm All Jibberish BS.

Shaq did not win any championship with all stars Van Exel and Eddie Jones.:confusedshrug:

Everything else here sound like a loser making Excuses.:facepalm

5 rings with most of his teammates having the best years of their career playing with him.

And Kobe did it his way.:banana:

[ArbitraryWater]

Damn, I just realized Pau averaged 7 assists in the '13 playoffs :wtf: :bowdown:

[Rooster]

How did Gasol and Odom do in the '11 post-season?

How about Gasol in the '12 post-season?

And again, how did Gasol do in the '13 post-season without Kobe?

PURE SHIT.

Gasol would never sniff the breath of greatness in the same sentence without playing for the Lakers. Kobe was already HOF player before Gasol came along.

[HOoopCityJones]

No point in arguing with Arbitrary.

All of his arguments and debating is plagiarised right from other Forums, mostly Real GM.

[ImKobe]

Damn, I just realized Pau averaged 7 assists in the '13 playoffs :wtf: :bowdown:
:facepalm

[tpols]

How did Gasol and Odom do in the '11 post-season?

How about Gasol in the '12 post-season?

And again, how did Gasol do in the '13 post-season without Kobe?

PURE SHIT.

Gasol has literally never won a single playoff game in his career without Kobe. :oldlol: Odom was really good but he's another guy with zero mental toughness.. Look at how his whole life fell apart when LA tried to trade him just a year after being sixth man of the year. They needed Lordbe to guide them to the promised land. :bowdown:

Meanwhile bran needed Wade already a champion and fmvp to win.. And then stabbed him in the back like Judas smh

[LAZERUSS]

Gasol would never sniff the breath of greatness in the same sentence without playing for the Lakers. Kobe was already HOF player before Gasol came along.

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

The reality is...

Kobe has a Top-10 career resume. Borderline to be sure, but Top-10.

[KobesFinger]

Um, no.... still wrong. Shaq/Fox >> Wade/Bosh, and Shaq >>>>> Wade.

Get it, slow one?

And Gasol / Odom vs. Wade / Bosh is a totally different story, but Gasol/Odom produced far more.... more efficiently, more baskets, more defense, more versatility.

False. Fox was a 3 and D role player. Shaq was great but not better than two all stars. Get the point? Don't be patronising.

Gasol and Odom's production: 18/10/4/2 on 55% and 12/9/2/1 on 50%
Wade and Bosh's production: 20/5/4/2/1 on 48% and 15/7/1/1/1 on 48% and 40% from 3

So production is about equal. Gasol/Odom were better rebounders and a more efficient but Wade/Bosh scored more and spread the floor which is crucial to LeBron. They were also better defenders. Gasol had good length but got bullied out of position easily and wasn't the fastest big. Odom was inconsistent as hell too. Wade was a good man/help defender, and Bosh became a great PNR defender. Gasol and Odom as a tandem are better passers too.

The only argument you have left is PJax vs Spo which I already conceded. And I'm done arguing with you, you clearly didn't watch the 08-10 Finals runs

[GimmeThat]

Dirk should leave the mavs and joined the Lakers

[Cold soul]

No point in arguing with Arbitrary.

All of his arguments and debating is plagiarised right from other Forums, mostly Real GM.

Really? That's sad...

[j3lademaster]

Dwight got there by default because KG was injured.What kind of logic is that? Lebron got to the finals before KG even came to the east. So Lebron got to the finals by default as well?

[La Frescobaldi]

I know. I just think it's funny how they think this season impacts his legacy or is indicative of his career as a whole.

That said, Kobe needs to get his shit together. Stop taking so many damn shots. It's embarrassing tbh. He's living up to all of the false myths the detractors made up over the years.

Let's take a look at some all time greats. not some top 10 list or whatever.... just a list of some great players off-hand.


Elvin Hayes
Spencer Haywood
Bernard King
Alex English
Bob McAdoo
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Reggie Miller
Charles Barkley
Ray Allen
Earl Monroe
John Havlicek
Rick Barry
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins

Who off this list of factually known, very high FGA shooting guys in their days... at the end of their careers... started chucking at the basket at horrifically low FGM%?

Really just blasting away, even in heavy traffic, even early in the 24 second clock, even with wide-open guys all around him?

Most or all of those guys were still capable of doing 25 or 30 in a game, and could have carried a high season PPG even at the end of their careers but they stayed within the game. Yeah we can nit-pick at the list, like Barkley and some of the guys were injured at the end or whatever. But still.

I can't really even remember a high level player ever just going full-bore ballhog at the end of his career.

[Keno]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.

excellent post. :applause:

[L8krH8tr]

I love seeing my friends who are Laker fans in misery. All those years of bought championships fake Hollywood celebrity lifestyle has come to an end.

[CJ Mustard]

What kind of logic is that? Lebron got to the finals before KG even came to the east. So Lebron got to the finals by default as well?
:facepalm Lebron beat everyone in the East at full strength to get to the Finals, Dwight did not. Pretty straightforward logic.

Not to mention Dwight had a MUCH better team and coach than Lebron did.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe has been a disaster this season. I don't care about wins or losses since it's in our best interest to finish in the top five and keep our pick, but Kobe has been disrespecting the game of basketball with his selfish, me-first brand of basketball. For a guy with his talent level and accolades, it's absolutely inexcusable.

[Nevaeh]

Of course, just forget about his 2pt FG% that year, which was at .510.

Or that Kobe's career eFG% is .485.

As for Howard and Gasol in 2012-13? How did they do without Kobe in the post-season? They were SWEPT by the Spurs, and by an average margin of 18.3 ppg.

Yep, Kobe sure depended on those two, didn't he?


Dude, you act like that team wasn't sucking even while Kobe was in the Line up.


:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq's impact is easily greater than that of Wade/Bosh, especially from 2012 on... We're talking 2000, 2001 Shaq here.

Couple that with Rick Fox, arbitrary mention.

But Shaq? Most double and triple teamed player ever? Scores at a 60% rate? 27+ ppg? 12+ rebounds? Guards intimidated to enter the paint?

God gawd... Please don't compare Wade/Bosh to the M.D.E.

[ImKobe]

Dude, you act like that team wasn't sucking even while Kobe was in the Line up.


:oldlol:

They won like 70% of their games when Kobe was put at point guard in the 2nd half of the season... dude was willing team into wins in march/april while playing 40+ minutes a game. They don't even make the Playoffs without him bro

[InfiniteBaskets]

Lakers might not be better without Kobe, but they really can't be much worse without him either.

Lakers with Kobe = Scrub team

Lakers w/o Kobe = Scrub team

The only difference is the type of offense they run with and without Kobe. Personally, I think they're more entertaining when they play at a faster tempo.

[Shih508]

Gasol has literally never won a single playoff game in his career without Kobe. :oldlol: Odom was really good but he's another guy with zero mental toughness.. Look at how his whole life fell apart when LA tried to trade him just a year after being sixth man of the year. They needed Lordbe to guide them to the promised land. :bowdown:

Meanwhile bran needed Wade already a champion and fmvp to win.. And then stabbed him in the back like Judas smh

Kobe has never won a playoff series himself without Shaq/Gasol. Shaq won many playoff series without Kobe.

So Shaq > > > > > Kobe by landslide by ur standard

[Shih508]

Kobe's legacy is the most OVERRATED ATROCITY in sports.
He was NOTHING post Shaq before PAU GASOL came along and ANDREW BYNUM developed...he barely even made the playoffs or had a winning record. He was about to leave for the bulls.

KOBE BRYANT was given a phantom FINALS MVP award. He was NEVER the most important player on his team post shaq era. It's a farce.

HE won on a team with the BIGGEST, LONGEST and MOST TALENTED back court in gasol and bynum and with prime LAMAR ODOM and RON ARTEST.

He cost the LAKERS a championship because of his SELFISHNESS in the Payton, Malone, Shaq era and was SECOND FIDDLE TO Shaq in the 3 Peat AND could have been replaced by ANY DECENT WING. SHAQ in 3 peat was not SHAQ in Orlando...he was PRIME, UNSTOPPABLE SHAQ.

KOBE HAS, and always has been, OVERRATED CRAP. The NBA gave him PHANTOM CALLS to promote the SPORT and score 81 points when the RAPTORS WERE NOT ALLOWED to stand 2 feet near him. THIS was during the Tim Donaghey era when RIGGING GAMES WAS COMMON PLACE.

5 rings as second fiddle and FAKE FINALS MVP? Robert Horry has 7.

KOBE's only TRUE, JUSTIFIABLE accomplishment is forcing his d1ck inside Kate Faber. HIS LEGACY IS RAPE in Colorado..or at least getting away from it.\

Great Post!!!:applause: :applause: :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Lakers might not be better without Kobe, but they really can't be much worse without him either.

Lakers with Kobe = Scrub team

Lakers w/o Kobe = Scrub team

The only difference is the type of offense they run with and without Kobe. Personally, I think they're more entertaining when they play at a faster tempo.

THIS.

The "Kobe-bashers" seem to honestly believe that this roster is somehow a playoff team without him.

The REALITY is, there is not ONE good player on it. Not ONE. Boozer in his prime was a good player...trouble is, that was years ago.

The rest of them...nothing but retreads and rejects.

Of course, only on ISH does ONE game make a season.

However, those that have actually watched basketball could show them these examples...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197203220CLE.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206060PHI.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198505270BOS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603100NYK.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006160IND.html


Just some, among the many SINGLE games that have proved absolutely NOTHING in the grand scheme of those seasons.

The Warrior game a couple of nights ago can be added to the above list. Again, who would the Warriors want on this Kobe-less Laker roster? NO ONE.

[ImKobe]

Shaq's impact is easily greater than that of Wade/Bosh, especially from 2012 on... We're talking 2000, 2001 Shaq here.

Couple that with Rick Fox, arbitrary mention.

But Shaq? Most double and triple teamed player ever? Scores at a 60% rate? 27+ ppg? 12+ rebounds? Guards intimidated to enter the paint?

God gawd... Please don't compare Wade/Bosh to the M.D.E.

Dude didn't score at a 60% rate once while playing with Kobe lol..and he wasn't triple teamed, that's complete bullshit.

I guess we should start discrediting Magic too, since he had more help than both Kobe and Bran.

[ImKobe]

Kobe has never won a playoff series himself without Shaq/Gasol. Shaq won many playoff series without Kobe.

So Shaq > > > > > Kobe by landslide by ur standard

Shaq won 0 titles with Penny Hardaway and Horace Grant, he won 1 title as a sidekick to Wade in 06(with Zo & GP on the team), he won 0 titles after that despite joining Nash's Suns, Bran's Cavs and the Celtics big 3...:coleman:

All Kobe needed was one all-star caliber big man to go to 3 straight NBA Finals and win 2.

Haters went from "Kobe can't win without Shaq" to "Kobe can't win without Shaq & Gasol"

I swear, you nikkas are never going to give Kobe credit for anything.

[triangleoffense]

Bspn Bspn Bspn Bspn Bspn

[La Frescobaldi]

THIS.

The "Kobe-bashers" seem to honestly believe that this roster is somehow a playoff team without him.

The REALITY is, there is not ONE good player on it. Not ONE. Boozer in his prime was a good player...trouble is, that was years ago.

The rest of them...nothing but retreads and rejects.

Of course, only on ISH does ONE game make a season.

However, those that have actually watched basketball could show them these examples...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197203220CLE.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206060PHI.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198505270BOS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603100NYK.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006160IND.html


Just some, among the many SINGLE games that have proved absolutely NOTHING in the grand scheme of those seasons.

The Warrior game a couple of nights ago can be added to the above list. Again, who would the Warriors want on this Kobe-less Laker roster? NO ONE.

they wanted a whole bunch of Lakers on their team the other night Laz

[Mr Feeny]

they wanted a whole bunch of Lakers on their team the other night Laz

:bowdown:

[funnystuff]

He was dropping 30 ppg in the playoffs just three years ago, and if you remove his first three years as a part-timer, he would be close to 30 ppg in his post-season career. He is certainly one of the greatest pure scorers in NBA post-season history.
Well "if" Lebron didn't lose any finals, he'd be undefeated in the finals. :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

Let's take a look at some all time greats. not some top 10 list or whatever.... just a list of some great players off-hand.


Elvin Hayes
Spencer Haywood
Bernard King
Alex English
Bob McAdoo
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Reggie Miller
Charles Barkley
Ray Allen
Earl Monroe
John Havlicek
Rick Barry
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins

Who off this list of factually known, very high FGA shooting guys in their days... at the end of their careers... started chucking at the basket at horrifically low FGM%?

Really just blasting away, even in heavy traffic, even early in the 24 second clock, even with wide-open guys all around him?

Most or all of those guys were still capable of doing 25 or 30 in a game, and could have carried a high season PPG even at the end of their careers but they stayed within the game. Yeah we can nit-pick at the list, like Barkley and some of the guys were injured at the end or whatever. But still.

I can't really even remember a high level player ever just going full-bore ballhog at the end of his career.

Really I'm not surprised. Kobe has always struck me as someone who wouldnt settle into role player status as he got older. Basically the day he can no longer average 20+ is the day he walks away from the game.

[tpols]

Kobe has never won a playoff series himself without Shaq/Gasol. Shaq won many playoff series without Kobe.

So Shaq > > > > > Kobe by landslide by ur standard
Shaq's played on like 10 different teams lol..

And that argument doesn't work because Shaq's never won anything without a superstar guard.. Penny Kobe then Wade. Had three all star guards on one team in the late 90s..swept out the playoffs. When Kobe had just two all star big men it's back to back championships.

[La Frescobaldi]

Really I'm not surprised. Kobe has always struck me as someone who wouldnt settle into role player status as he got older. Basically the day he can no longer average 20+ is the day he walks away from the game.

he always had some bacon in him without question

but this year he's gone in for the whole hog:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8144/7409836418_b829267beb_z.jpg

No wonder even his own teammates are sickened by that thing.

[SpecialQue]

Always knew they were a bunch of idiots.

[AirFederer]

he always had some bacon in him without question

but this year he's gone in for the whole hog:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8144/7409836418_b829267beb_z.jpg

No wonder even his own teammates are sickened by that thing.
:roll:

[Magic 32]

This is a great piece by ESPN and.....

oh wait....Pau Gasol has yet to win a playoffs game without Kobe?

Never mind.

[Fox]

lmao @ KoME and the Lakers

-team plays better without him

-shooting like chit from the field and never passing to anyone

-won't even come close to making the playoffs

-more obsessed with his stats than he is about winning games

-teammates hate him

lmao "goatbe"

[LAZERUSS]

THIS.

The "Kobe-bashers" seem to honestly believe that this roster is somehow a playoff team without him.

The REALITY is, there is not ONE good player on it. Not ONE. Boozer in his prime was a good player...trouble is, that was years ago.

The rest of them...nothing but retreads and rejects.

Of course, only on ISH does ONE game make a season.

However, those that have actually watched basketball could show them these examples...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197203220CLE.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206060PHI.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198505270BOS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603100NYK.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006160IND.html


Just some, among the many SINGLE games that have proved absolutely NOTHING in the grand scheme of those seasons.

The Warrior game a couple of nights ago can be added to the above list. Again, who would the Warriors want on this Kobe-less Laker roster? NO ONE.

I have to apologize...

Boozer is STILL a good player.

However, I was dead on with the rest of this...

Saggy shot 1-6 and was benched for missing shots by 10 ft.

Lin looked like Moses parting the Red Sea...as his Bull counterparts marched into the lane for uncontested layups.

The REALITY is...this Laker roster, aside from Boozer, is PURE SHIT.

And what is even more remarkable...the Bulls played a BAD game. Their defense was awful, they were outhustled all game long, and they were sloppy with the ball the entire game.

Kobe wouldn't help this cast of morons at his peak. Nor could MJ.

[La Frescobaldi]

I have to apologize...

Boozer is STILL a good player.

However, I was dead on with the rest of this...

Saggy shot 1-6 and was benched for missing shots by 10 ft.

Lin looked like Moses parting the Red Sea...as his Bull counterparts marched into the lane for uncontested layups.

The REALITY is...this Laker roster, aside from Boozer, is PURE SHIT.

And what is even more remarkable...the Bulls played a BAD game. Their defense was awful, they were outhustled all game long, and they were sloppy with the ball the entire game.

Kobe wouldn't help this cast of morons at his peak. Nor could MJ.

Lakers team is poorly coached right now. Not saying Scott is a bad coach nor that these are great players but that team has major problems playing team ball. They need time on the court together.

[Haymaker]

http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Leave-britney-alone.jpg

[SpanishACB]

I see people easily forget just how good Bynum was for Lakers...

[Bandito]

Kobe hasn't ever won without a superstar big man, that's a fact. Kobe can't carry teams like Lebron, Duncan, or Shaq can. Give any of those guys in their prime the 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2013 Lakers (I'm not gonna throw 2015 in there because Kobe is obviously done), and they cruise to the Playoffs and probably win a round. Yet Kobe is put on par with these guys with and there are people who say he's better. Of course unbiased people who know basketball are going to find that ridiculous and point out his flaws.

If Kobe fans would just accept the fact that's he's a top 10-15 player who's had a great career but never dominated the league, he wouldn't get nearly the hate. But you insist on comparing him to Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, therefore he gets shit on. I actually enjoy watching Kobe play, if it wasn't for his fans I wouldn't have anything negative to say about him.
Why do you mention Lebron there when he obviously colluded with two other superstars and couldn't win on his own is beyond me.

[LAZERUSS]

Lakers team is poorly coached right now. Not saying Scott is a bad coach nor that these are great players but that team has major problems playing team ball. They need time on the court together.

Let me start by saying this...

Players in the NBA are among the top 1000 or so best players in the entire world (I know, but there are probably players in Europe, in college right now, in D-League, etc, that could play in the NBA.) So it is never a complete shock when an under-dog team wins a game. As was the case in the Warrior game, if their shots are falling, and the other team just plays poorly, well...almost anything can happen.

But here is the reality. Inside of these top-1000 players are tiers. And the top tier is just considerably better than all of those below, and way better than those near the bottom.

Furthermore, take a close look at the Laker roster. Break down each player. Aside from Boozer (and Kobe, of course), the rest of the players have had enough playing time in their careers, including college, to KNOW just how good they are.

About a month, or so, ago, I got ripped because Zack Lavine went off and scored 28 points, on 11-13 shooting (of course it was against LA), but I said at the time that it was a fluke. How did I KNOW that? Just look at his college career. He was a backup, who was ordinary, at best, and who was awful in his biggest games. Guess what? After that ONE game, he has done NOTHING. And he has been starting to boot (only because of an injury to Rubio.) I am not a big fan of PER, but I believe he is near the very bottom in the entire league.

And it is the same with the rest of the Lakers. Most all of them have enough of a career to KNOW what you have. Lin is a career backup that can't play defense. Ed Davis will make 2-3 dunks a game, and grab a few rebounds. Hill is a career backup who is serviceable, at best, but will never be even a good center. Swaggy is a loose cannon who has proven in his career that, overall, he can't shoot...especially when defended.

Player-for-player, this team is a group of rejects, and retreads, that really no one else would want. Sure, they can fill a role for 10 minutes, but to expect anything more is unreasonable. They are, what they are....which is ordinary to crap. And you can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad.

[JellyBean]

Haters are going to hate no matter what. I am just glad that Kobe doesn't give a sh*&! what people say or think about him.

[La Frescobaldi]

Let me start by saying this...

Players in the NBA are among the top 1000 or so best players in the entire world (I know, but there are probably players in Europe, in college right now, in D-League, etc, that could play in the NBA.) So it is never a complete shock when an under-dog team wins a game. As was the case in the Warrior game, if their shots are falling, and the other team just plays poorly, well...almost anything can happen.

But here is the reality. Inside of these top-1000 players are tiers. And the top tier is just considerably better than all of those below, and way better than those near the bottom.

Furthermore, take a close look at the Laker roster. Break down each player. Aside from Boozer (and Kobe, of course), the rest of the players have had enough playing time in their careers, including college, to KNOW just how good they are.

About a month, or so, ago, I got ripped because Zack Lavine went off and scored 28 points, on 11-13 shooting (of course it was against LA), but I said at the time that it was a fluke. How did I KNOW that? Just look at his college career. He was a backup, who was ordinary, at best, and who was awful in his biggest games. Guess what? After that ONE game, he has done NOTHING. And he has been starting to boot (only because of an injury to Rubio.) I am not a big fan of PER, but I believe he is near the very bottom in the entire league.

And it is the same with the rest of the Lakers. Most all of them have enough of a career to KNOW what you have. Lin is a career backup that can't play defense. Ed Davis will make 2-3 dunks a game, and grab a few rebounds. Hill is a career backup who is serviceable, at best, but will never be even a good center. Swaggy is a loose cannon who has proven in his career that, overall, he can't shoot...especially when defended.

Player-for-player, this team is a group of rejects, and retreads, that really no one else would want. Sure, they can fill a role for 10 minutes, but to expect anything more is unreasonable. They are, what they are....which is ordinary to crap. And you can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad.

Who's disagreeing?

All I'm saying in our running dialog is that LA team is far, far better building teamwork than playing with current Kobe Bryant at all.

Far. (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23130389/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/farthest-galaxy-found-perhaps/#.VJ1mK_8M8w)

http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080212/080212-space-galaxy-hmed-1130a.jpg

[GimmeThat]

This is a great piece by ESPN and.....

oh wait....Pau Gasol has yet to win a playoffs game without Kobe?

Never mind.


I heard Shaq walked out on LA as a FA without getting any trade pieces in return.

must be Louisiana or something

[LAZERUSS]

Who's disagreeing?

All I'm saying in our running dialog is that LA team is far, far better building teamwork than playing with current Kobe Bryant at all.

[U]Far. (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23130389/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/farthest-galaxy-found-perhaps/#.VJ1mK_8M8w)

http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080212/080212-space-galaxy-hmed-1130a.jpg

Kobe is just a shell, to be sure. Does he hurt the team when he plays? Probably. But who cares? This team wouldn't win 20 games without him.

Part of it is his fault. His contract is killing them. That is one of the reasons they have to sign these players that no one else wants.

Having said that, though. He is their ONLY player who can get his shot. Even now, he commands doubles and triples. Furthermore, he has PASSED the ball at times this season. He has had a 30 point triple double. But, what good does it do? Time-and-again, he is doubled, with defenders draped all over him, and if he passes the ball to a wide open teammate, they either airball the shot, or throw the ball away.

But even beyond all of that...he is now getting ripped here for his play in his ENTIRE career. And you and I both know that he is a Top-10 player all-time. Only complete idiots would come out of the woodwork at this point in his career, and make ridiculous claims like he was hurting his team all these years.

[AirFederer]

Only player who can get his shot??!!?? Are you high? Have you not watched the games? Kobe gets his shots alright and connects on <37% of them :facepalm

He also sucks big time on defence. Like BIG time.

Meanwhile his teammates just beat GSW w/o him and they shoot at a higher clip.

Kobe is a net negative so stop yapping about his ability to get his absymal shots off :facepalm


Kobe is just a shell, to be sure. Does he hurt the team when he plays? Probably. But who cares? This team wouldn't win 20 games without him.

Part of it is his fault. His contract is killing them. That is one of the reasons they have to sign these players that no one else wants.

Having said that, though. He is their ONLY player who can get his shot. Even now, he commands doubles and triples. Furthermore, he has PASSED the ball at times this season. He has had a 30 point triple double. But, what good does it do? Time-and-again, he is doubled, with defenders draped all over him, and if he passes the ball to a wide open teammate, they either airball the shot, or throw the ball away.

But even beyond all of that...he is now getting ripped here for his play in his ENTIRE career. And you and I both know that he is a Top-10 player all-time. Only complete idiots would come out of the woodwork at this point in his career, and make ridiculous claims like he was hurting his team all these years.

[LAZERUSS]

Only player who can get his shot??!!?? Are you high? Have you not watched the games? Kobe gets his shots alright and connects on <37% of them :facepalm

He also sucks big time on defence. Like BIG time.

Meanwhile his teammates just beat GSW w/o him and they shoot at a higher clip.

Kobe is a net negative so stop yapping about his ability to get his absymal shots off :facepalm

Yep...we saw how good his teammates were last night. They STINK. If Chicago has played even an average game they would have won by 30+ points.

And no one in the league is a worse defender than Lin. I could score at will against that guy.

And how did the "freed" Swaggy P do last night? Oh, he went 1-6...without Kobe? Now who does he blame for his ineptitude?

[La Frescobaldi]

Kobe is just a shell, to be sure. Does he hurt the team when he plays? Probably. But who cares? This team wouldn't win 20 games without him.

Part of it is his fault. His contract is killing them. That is one of the reasons they have to sign these players that no one else wants.

Having said that, though. He is their ONLY player who can get his shot. Even now, he commands doubles and triples. Furthermore, he has PASSED the ball at times this season. He has had a 30 point triple double. But, what good does it do? Time-and-again, he is doubled, with defenders draped all over him, and if he passes the ball to a wide open teammate, they either airball the shot, or throw the ball away.

But even beyond all of that...he is now getting ripped here for his play in his ENTIRE career. And you and I both know that he is a Top-10 player all-time. Only complete idiots would come out of the woodwork at this point in his career, and make ridiculous claims like he was hurting his team all these years.

He's not joining the circle of 3 greatest, and never will. He's second tier.

[Bandito]

He's not joining the circle of 3 greatest, and never will. He's second tier.
I agree. Why Lebrontards says different is beyond me.

[fpliii]

Only complete idiots would come out of the woodwork at this point in his career, and make ridiculous claims like he was hurting his team all these years.
I agree with this. This season Kobe is fulfilling the then-false narratives that his detractors were pushing for his entire career. Doesn't mean people can retroactively try and apply them to his prime, since they weren't applicable at the time, and still aren't in retrospect.

In his current role, he's definitely a net negative on the floor. No question about it. I do think Kobe is capable of having a decent positive impact in a different role, but this is a lost season. For better or worse, as much as the FO denies it, they're looking forward to the offseason as well as 2015-16, and the tank is almost certainly on (as much as Jeanie, Mitch, and Jim deny it).

The problem is, like with other all-time great players, Kobe's been judged by superstar standards throughout his career. Even though he's obviously no longer playing at an all-star level, he's still held to lofty standards. Same thing happened to Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Ewing, etc. as their careers came to a close. It's obviously rough now as a Lakers fan that Kobe detractors are seizing the opportunity, but it is what it is. Comes with the territory.

[ArbitraryWater]

I agree. Why Lebrontards says different is beyond me.

He's talking about Kobe you imbecile :oldlol:

[Bandito]

He's talking about Kobe you imbecile :oldlol:
He was surely talking about Lebron. Anything he posted could relate to him easily.

[LAZERUSS]

I agree with this. This season Kobe is fulfilling the then-false narratives that his detractors were pushing for his entire career. Doesn't mean people can retroactively try and apply them to his prime, since they weren't applicable at the time, and still aren't in retrospect.

In his current role, he's definitely a net negative on the floor. No question about it. I do think Kobe is capable of having a decent positive impact in a different role, but this is a lost season. For better or worse, as much as the FO denies it, they're looking forward to the offseason as well as 2015-16, and the tank is almost certainly on (as much as Jeanie, Mitch, and Jim deny it).

The problem is, like with other all-time great players, Kobe's been judged by superstar standards throughout his career. Even though he's obviously no longer playing at an all-star level, he's still held to lofty standards. Same thing happened to Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Ewing, etc. as their careers came to a close. It's obviously rough now as a Lakers fan that Kobe detractors are seizing the opportunity, but it is what it is. Comes with the territory.

Exactly.

People are making a big deal out of Kobe THIS season. Who cares? He is no longer the player he once was, and likely never will come close again. So what? If he were holding back a good team, I could see making a case to cut his playing time, or his role, but what difference is it going to make with this cast of clowns? They can lose without him, or they can lose with him shot-jacking to 30 points. Either way, it is hopeless.

[LAZERUSS]

He's not joining the circle of 3 greatest, and never will. He's second tier.

Oh, I agree. I think Kobe's resume warrants a ranking around 8th, or so, all-time. And depending on the criteria, I could see as far as 11th. Still, to read some of the crap that is being posted here lately, his CAREER appears to be being judged by THIS season.

[Magic 32]

I agree with this. This season Kobe is fulfilling the then-false narratives that his detractors were pushing for his entire career. Doesn't mean people can retroactively try and apply them to his prime, since they weren't applicable at the time, and still aren't in retrospect.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5kbumtPpi1r777xho1_500.gif

[Magic 32]

Kobe can't carry teams like Lebron, Duncan, or Shaq can. Give any of those guys in their prime the 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2013 Lakers, and they cruise to the Playoffs and probably win a round.

Lebron vs 50+ teams with the top defensive Cavs (2006-10)...

1-5

Kobe vs 50+ teams with the garbage Lakers (2005-07)...

0-2

Lebron stans should send an annual Christmas card to Tim Thomas for allowing this paper thin narrative to continually thriving. :facepalm

[ImKobe]

Only player who can get his shot??!!?? Are you high? Have you not watched the games? Kobe gets his shots alright and connects on <37% of them :facepalm

He also sucks big time on defence. Like BIG time.

Meanwhile his teammates just beat GSW w/o him and they shoot at a higher clip.

Kobe is a net negative so stop yapping about his ability to get his absymal shots off :facepalm

http://whatistheexcel.com/wooobooru/_images/16501f6cedeab9c2d0b956c8139516d3/860%20-%20animated_macro%20autoplay_gif%20david_otunga%20 gif%20wwe%20you_mad.gif

[SpanishACB]

The problem is, like with other all-time great players, Kobe's been judged by superstar standards throughout his career. Even though he's obviously no longer playing at an all-star level, he's still held to lofty standards. Same thing happened to Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Ewing, etc. as their careers came to a close. It's obviously rough now as a Lakers fan that Kobe detractors are seizing the opportunity, but it is what it is. Comes with the territory.

Thing is, the reason Kobe is judged like an all star is because he's taking as many shots s as a starting 5 all star, in most cases more.

If he played a different role, dished out some assits, and hit 3 of 10 whilst being a locker room leader (not that Lakers has much talent to look forward too, besides Randle, but still), I'm sure people would have a much better opinion of him at this stage.

but really, he's leaving no one no option.

[fpliii]

Thing is, the reason Kobe is judged like an all star is because he's taking as many shots s as a starting 5 all star, in most cases more.

If he played a different role, dished out some assits, and hit 3 of 10 whilst being a locker room leader (not that Lakers has much talent to look forward too, besides Randle, but still), I'm sure people would have a much better opinion of him at this stage.

but really, he's leaving no one no option.
What's LA on pace for? 22-25 wins? Kobe in a more optimal role probably gets this team to 30ish wins, in which case we likely lose our pick to Phoenix.

Not that it excuses his play, but it doesn't hurt us at all if he chooses to take a ton of shots a night. The team's biggest problem is that we can't defend worth a damn (we're historically bad, ranked worst in the league, and among the worst squads ever on that end: http://bkref.com/tiny/5PBaH), and Kobe is no longer capable of playing defense consistently (in addition to the fact that nobody on this squad has ever been anything worse than a net negative on D).

Honestly, I think ownership had a conversation with Kobe and Scott before the season. They both know that the team is targeting free agents in next summer's class (and possibly the year after), and that this is a lose-lose situation.

[Nevaeh]

He's not joining the circle of 3 greatest, and never will. He's second tier.

Is that what Lazerus'a angle is with all of this sudden "Kobe Groupie" behavior? I really really hope not, because that just ain't happening.

:oldlol:

He said this Laker team Stinks literally 20+ times over a 2 day span, as if peeps didn't already notice that. His problem is that he wants to leave Kobe out of the the "stank contribution" simply because he's in his 19th season. Well tough sh!t. As the leader of that team, Kobe's getting his share of the blame for the Lakers' louzy play as well. Deal with it.

[tontoz]

Kobe has always thought he was a better shooter than he actually is. He is a career 33% shooter from 3 but keeps jacking them up in an era when the rules make it easier to get to the basket.

[LAZERUSS]

Is that what Lazerus'a angle is with all of this sudden "Kobe Groupie" behavior? I really really hope not, because that just ain't happening.

:oldlol:

He said this Laker team Stinks literally 20+ times over a 2 day span, as if peeps didn't already notice that. His problem is that he wants to leave Kobe out of the the "stank contribution" simply because he's in his 19th season. Well tough sh!t. As the leader of that team, Kobe's getting his share of the blame for the Lakers' louzy play as well. Deal with it.

A. I could not care less how Kobe plays THIS season. But just read thru the topics that have inundated this forum lately. He is being bashed for his CAREER here, as well.

B. Did I claim anywhere, at anytime, that I have Kobe in a Top-3 all-time?

C. No one has been more critical of Kobe in his FINALs, than I have. STILL, Shaq doesn't win two of his rings without Kobe in the '01 and '02 Spurs series. Furthermore, he was brilliant in his playoffs before the Finals in '08, '09, and '10. Fortunately, Kobe played well enough, as did his teammates, to win titles in '09 and '10. And whether you agree with it or not, he did win FMVPs in both.

D. As for the "20 times"...you do realize that there have been folks here arguing with me. They claim that that Warrior win "proved" that it was Kobe who was holding them back. Yeah, right. Any rational basketball fan can take a look at the CAREERS of these clowns, and realize that they are a worthless group. And contrary to popular belief here at ISH, ONE damned game is not going to change that.

[LAZERUSS]

What's LA on pace for? 22-25 wins? Kobe in a more optimal role probably gets this team to 30ish wins, in which case we likely lose our pick to Phoenix.

Not that it excuses his play, but it doesn't hurt us at all if he chooses to take a ton of shots a night. The team's biggest problem is that we can't defend worth a damn (we're historically bad, ranked worst in the league, and among the worst squads ever on that end: http://bkref.com/tiny/5PBaH), and Kobe is no longer capable of playing defense consistently (in addition to the fact that nobody on this squad has ever been anything worse than a net negative on D).

Honestly, I think ownership had a conversation with Kobe and Scott before the season. They both know that the team is targeting free agents in next summer's class (and possibly the year after), and that this is a lose-lose situation.

Again... 100% agreed.

The REALITY is, Kobe could become the next John Stockton, and it wouldn't make any difference at all. This roster is pure crap, and the majority of it won't be back next year.

[La Frescobaldi]

I agree with this. This season Kobe is fulfilling the then-false narratives that his detractors were pushing for his entire career. Doesn't mean people can retroactively try and apply them to his prime, since they weren't applicable at the time, and still aren't in retrospect.

In his current role, he's definitely a net negative on the floor. No question about it. I do think Kobe is capable of having a decent positive impact in a different role, but this is a lost season. For better or worse, as much as the FO denies it, they're looking forward to the offseason as well as 2015-16, and the tank is almost certainly on (as much as Jeanie, Mitch, and Jim deny it).

The problem is, like with other all-time great players, Kobe's been judged by superstar standards throughout his career. Even though he's obviously no longer playing at an all-star level, he's still held to lofty standards. Same thing happened to Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Ewing, etc. as their careers came to a close. It's obviously rough now as a Lakers fan that Kobe detractors are seizing the opportunity, but it is what it is. Comes with the territory.
again I say it.

Let's take a look at some all time greats. not some top 10 list or whatever.... just a list of some great players off-hand.


Elvin Hayes
Spencer Haywood
Bernard King
Alex English
Bob McAdoo
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Reggie Miller
Charles Barkley
Ray Allen
Earl Monroe
John Havlicek
Rick Barry
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins

Who off this list of factually known, very high FGA shooting guys in their days... at the end of their careers... started chucking at the basket at horrifically low FGM%?

Really just blasting away, even in heavy traffic, even early in the 24 second clock, even with wide-open guys all around him?

Most or all of those guys were still capable of doing 25 or 30 in a game, and could have carried a high season PPG even at the end of their careers but they stayed within the game. Yeah we can nit-pick at the list, like Barkley and some of the guys were injured at the end or whatever. But still.

I can't really even remember a high level player ever just going full-bore ballhog at the end of his career.

[La Frescobaldi]

He was surely talking about Lebron. Anything he posted could relate to him easily.

LeBron ruined his chances by endlessly flopping

[La Frescobaldi]

Oh, I agree. I think Kobe's resume warrants a ranking around 8th, or so, all-time. And depending on the criteria, I could see as far as 11th. Still, to read some of the crap that is being posted here lately, his CAREER appears to be being judged by THIS season.

no valid poster is saying that.

[f0und]

I agree with this. This season Kobe is fulfilling the then-false narratives that his detractors were pushing for his entire career. Doesn't mean people can retroactively try and apply them to his prime, since they weren't applicable at the time, and still aren't in retrospect.

In his current role, he's definitely a net negative on the floor. No question about it. I do think Kobe is capable of having a decent positive impact in a different role, but this is a lost season. For better or worse, as much as the FO denies it, they're looking forward to the offseason as well as 2015-16, and the tank is almost certainly on (as much as Jeanie, Mitch, and Jim deny it).

The problem is, like with other all-time great players, Kobe's been judged by superstar standards throughout his career. Even though he's obviously no longer playing at an all-star level, he's still held to lofty standards. Same thing happened to Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Ewing, etc. as their careers came to a close. It's obviously rough now as a Lakers fan that Kobe detractors are seizing the opportunity, but it is what it is. Comes with the territory.


thats bs. those detractors(really anyone with half a brain) had valid criticisms that were obvious to anyone unless you were a kobe kid. kobe has played like a selfish ret*rd his entire career. the only difference now is that his shot is falling even less and even his biggest supporters cant defend it. throughout his career, was he chucker? yes. was he ever the model of efficiency? no. did he have a horrible shot selection? yes. did he routinely shoot dumb long fadeaways over multiple defeneders? yup. did he ignore open teammates? all the time. did he suck in the clutch? 28%. in the past those things were hidden from his supporters because of a few of those horrible shots would fall in. and he had a good team to clean up his mess. now its just too painfully obvious and all those faults are clear as day to everyone.

[LAZERUSS]

no valid poster is saying that.

Take a look at the post above this one...

just another example of someone trashing a CAREER Kobe. Obviously, he didn't actually see Kobe play, though.

[RRR3]

Laz trashing Kobe himself

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331165&page=4

[LAZERUSS]

Laz trashing Kobe himself

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331165&page=4

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862182&postcount=164


A. I could not care less how Kobe plays THIS season. But just read thru the topics that have inundated this forum lately. He is being bashed for his CAREER here, as well.

B. Did I claim anywhere, at anytime, that I have Kobe in a Top-3 all-time?

C. No one has been more critical of Kobe in his FINALs, than I have. STILL, Shaq doesn't win two of his rings without Kobe in the '01 and '02 Spurs series. Furthermore, he was brilliant in his playoffs before the Finals in '08, '09, and '10. Fortunately, Kobe played well enough, as did his teammates, to win titles in '09 and '10. And whether you agree with it or not, he did win FMVPs in both.

D. As for the "20 times"...you do realize that there have been folks here arguing with me. They claim that that Warrior win "proved" that it was Kobe who was holding them back. Yeah, right. Any rational basketball fan can take a look at the CAREERS of these clowns, and realize that they are a worthless group. And contrary to popular belief here at ISH, ONE damned game is not going to change that.

[Straight_Ballin]

Take a look at the post above this one...

just another example of someone trashing a CAREER Kobe. Obviously, he didn't actually see Kobe play, though.

Everyone has seen kobe play and no one is basing his career off this year. Stop letting yourself get trolled by no life having neck beards who's opinion doesn't even matter as it's a troll post.

[LAZERUSS]

Everyone has seen kobe play and no one is basing his career off this year. Stop letting yourself get trolled by no life having neck beards who's opinion doesn't even matter as it's a troll post.

I know.

But it just bothers me that some, at least, are "kicking him while he is down."

Kobe has been notorious for his work ethic, and his ability to play thru injuries.

[Straight_Ballin]

I know.

But it just bothers me that some, at least, are "kicking him while he is down."

Kobe has been notorious for his work ethic, and his ability to play thru injuries.

Yes he has. He had a great person that he mimicked to achieve this. Jordan

[HurricaneKid]

This is a great piece by ESPN and.....

oh wait....Pau Gasol has yet to win a playoffs game without Kobe?

Never mind.

Lakers and their fans have been piling up on Pau since 2011. When he almost singlehandedly beat the USA team in the Gold Medal game a few years ago Lakers fans ignored it and blamed him for every shortcoming the team had. Years later with a different color jersey he has been tremendous and is on a title favorite. So keep using that one. Pretty soon you won't be able to.

[HurricaneKid]

I know.

But it just bothers me that some, at least, are "kicking him while he is down."

Kobe has been notorious for his work ethic, and his ability to play thru injuries.

There is no question that age exascerbates weakness. But to suggest that shot selection, selfish play, refusal to defend, etc weren't issues until this year is disengenuous. Its just that he could shoot a more passable percentage on those bad shots in the past and that his work and effort made it so these problems weren't as glaring as they are in his old age.

[LAZERUSS]

There is no question that age exascerbates weakness. But to suggest that shot selection, selfish play, refusal to defend, etc weren't issues until this year is disengenuous. Its just that he could shoot a more passable percentage on those bad shots in the past and that his work and effort made it so these problems weren't as glaring as they are in his old age.

He was among the best players in the game in his very last (near full) season...in 2012-2013. He was averaging a 27-6-6, and on a .463 FG% (.510 from 2pt range BTW), and .570 TS%, when he went down near the end of the season.

And, without him, the Lakers were brutally swept in the first round.

[Shih508]

thats bs. those detractors(really anyone with half a brain) had valid criticisms that were obvious to anyone unless you were a kobe kid. kobe has played like a selfish ret*rd his entire career. the only difference now is that his shot is falling even less and even his biggest supporters cant defend it. throughout his career, was he chucker? yes. was he ever the model of efficiency? no. did he have a horrible shot selection? yes. did he routinely shoot dumb long fadeaways over multiple defeneders? yup. did he ignore open teammates? all the time. did he suck in the clutch? 28%. in the past those things were hidden from his supporters because of a few of those horrible shots would fall in. and he had a good team to clean up his mess. now its just too painfully obvious and all those faults are clear as day to everyone.

Well said:applause:

[Shih508]

He was among the best players in the game in his very last (near full) season...in 2012-2013. He was averaging a 27-6-6, and on a .463 FG% (.510 from 2pt range BTW), and .570 TS%, when he went down near the end of the season.

And, without him, the Lakers were brutally swept in the first round.

Now D'antonio's coaching no longer inflated offensive stats when it's applying to Kobe. Nice to know.

That's one of least efficient offensive stats for any # 1 option Under D'antonio.

[bizil]

If Kobe wanted to give the Lakers EVERY OPPORTUNITY to build a contender, he should have taken less money. He deserves the money they paid him don't get me wrong. And he has five rings already, so maybe he's content with chasing scoring marks and cashing out. But guys like Dirk and Duncan (who are also playing at a high level later in their careers) took A LOT LESS MONEY BECAUSE they wanted rings. This allows them to get more help to win rings. Plus both STILL can dominate a game on given nights. Which is especially handy come playoff time when it counts the most.

The Mavs and Spurs understand this shit and have plan A-Z to get quality guys in to contend. The Lakers for all intensive purposes brought a knife to a gunfight in terms of free agency this past summer.

[Magic 32]

Lakers and their fans have been piling up on Pau since 2011. When he almost singlehandedly beat the USA team in the Gold Medal game a few years ago Lakers fans ignored it and blamed him for every shortcoming the team had. Years later with a different color jersey he has been tremendous and is on a title favorite. So keep using that one. Pretty soon you won't be able to.

0-16.

Yep, I will keep using that one.

And let's see how tremendous he is in the playoffs.

The last time he played a great playoff game was 4 years ago.

[Hey Yo]

He was among the best players in the game in his very last (near full) season...in 2012-2013. He was averaging a 27-6-6, and on a .463 FG% (.510 from 2pt range BTW), and .570 TS%, when he went down near the end of the season.

And, without him, the Lakers were brutally swept in the first round.
But the 2 seasons before 2012 and after LA's last championship, Kobe was playing bad. Then makes a few trips to Germany before the 2012-13 season and all of a sudden is more efficient than he's been in 5yrs.

Seems shady

[HurricaneKid]

He was among the best players in the game in his very last (near full) season...in 2012-2013. He was averaging a 27-6-6, and on a .463 FG% (.510 from 2pt range BTW), and .570 TS%, when he went down near the end of the season.

And, without him, the Lakers were brutally swept in the first round.

No. He was not. He was a top 20 offensive player but he completely stopped playing defense that season.

He had a team with three other surefire HoFers and he refused to change his game AT ALL. On a team with that many offensive threats he shoved Nash aside (and Nash has some JUICY quotes on the matter) and initiated the offense every time. He conserved nothing for defense, where his energy would have been far better used, and his splits showed it. That choice has ALWAYS been made to benefit himself in front of the needs of the team throughout his career. My two RAPM models had him #55 and #65.

And the Lakers would have been brutally swept by the Spurs with or without him that year.

[Magic 32]

But the 2 seasons before 2012 and after LA's last championship, Kobe was playing bad. Then makes a few trips to Germany before the 2012-13 season and all of a sudden is more efficient than he's been in 5yrs.

Seems shady

Not as shady as Lebron's and Wade's physique since 2006.

[Top Gun]

I like Kobe but no doubt he's tarnishing his reputation this season. Should've taken less money so he could get away with chucking.

[Magic 32]

No. He was not. He was a top 20 offensive player


Let it go. Kobe was top 5.



He had a team with three other surefire HoFers and he refused to change his game AT ALL.

Are you talking about post-back injury Dwight Howard and permanently damaged Steve Nash? GTFU

And he did change his game, averaging 25 points and 8 assists as the lakers went 28-5 to end the season.


You should really be ashamed of yourself.

[Magic 32]

I like Kobe but no doubt he's tarnishing his reputation this season. Should've taken less money so he could get away with chucking.

And who would they get?

Melo?

[fpliii]

And who would they get?

Melo?
Hopefully Marc Gasol or LMA this coming offseason. I feel like both are staying with their teams though, and we're going to get some overrated combo guard at best. :facepalm

[Hey Yo]

Not as shady as Lebron's and Wade's physique since 2006.
Big difference between seeing an 18yr old LeBron grow and mature into a man compared to Kobe getting procedures done out of country cause they're illegal in the U.S.

If it was LeBron that was the one who went to Germany, you Kobe stans would never shut up about it.

[Magic 32]

If it was LeBron that was the one who went to Germany, you Kobe stans would never shut up about it.

There is nothing morally wrong with a once-a-year procedure that moves tissue from one part of the body to another, or pumpes red blood cells into a damaged part of a worn down or damaged knee.

With Lebron and Wade, we are talking about continuous, daily use of PED, that help performance, condition and body strength.

[HurricaneKid]

Let it go. Kobe was top 5.



Are you talking about post-back injury Dwight Howard and permanently damaged Steve Nash? GTFU

And he did change his game, averaging 25 points and 8 assists as the lakers went 28-5 to end the season.


You should really be ashamed of yourself.

Kobe's top 5 days ended after he won his title in 09. I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm not even a hater. Kobe was GREAT from 01-09 with a few sharp lapses. But this thing where you give him credit for all his teammates' contributions is stale. When you play for your legacy you have to PLAY not SCORE. And he has been horrific defensively for years now. This is not a new development this season.

Kobe doesn't change his game. Never has and never will. GOAT(ish) coach said so in his book. Age won't do it either.

[HurricaneKid]

There is nothing morally wrong with a once-a-year procedure that moves tissue from one part of the body to another, or pumpes red blood cells into a damaged part of a worn down or damaged knee.

With Lebron and Wade, we are talking about continuous, daily use of PED, that help performance, condition and body strength.

Proof?

By the way you just described blood doping. Which is wildly illegal in almost all athletic competitions.

[Magic 32]

Proof?

By the way you just described blood doping. Which is wildly illegal in almost all athletic competitions.

I have no problem with "blood doping if it's a once-a-year operation that help strengthen a weakened body part.

My problem is daily use that makes you into an artificial pumped-up monster.

[Nevaeh]

I know.

But it just bothers me that some, at least, are "kicking him while he is down."

Kobe has been notorious for his work ethic, and his ability to play thru injuries.


LOL dude, WTF.....are you his dad, or some sh!t? What did you actually think was gonna happen if he just continued playing selfish ball, all the while his stats continue to grow more and more atrocious in the process.

What, you thought peeps wouldn't notice or something? If anything, you can thank his loyal fans here at ISH for putting the bulls eye on his back, by constantly spamming the board with thread after Thread about "Da Gawd", even while he's playing "Gawd Awful".

"Kick him while he's down", my Ass....

[Hey Yo]

There is nothing morally wrong with a once-a-year procedure that moves tissue from one part of the body to another, or pumpes red blood cells into a damaged part of a worn down or damaged knee.

With Lebron and Wade, we are talking about continuous, daily use of PED, that help performance, condition and body strength.
:oldlol:

Of course you don't see anything wrong with it cause it made his game look like it did 5yrs prior to that.

[Magic 32]

Kobe's top 5 days ended after he won his title in 09. I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm not even a hater. Kobe was GREAT from 01-09 with a few sharp lapses. But this thing where you give him credit for all his teammates' contributions is stale. When you play for your legacy you have to PLAY not SCORE. And he has been horrific defensively for years now. This is not a new development this season.

Kobe doesn't change his game. Never has and never will. GOAT(ish) coach said so in his book. Age won't do it either.


You can repeat this for the rest of your life. All you have to do is look at the games before 2013-01-25 and after.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2013/#1162-1203-sum:pgl_basic

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2013/#1204-1239-sum:pgl_basic

[Magic 32]

:oldlol:

Of course you don't see anything wrong with it cause it made his game look like it did 5yrs prior to that.

I would have no problem if T-MAc did it...or Lebron.

I have a problem with substance abuse, not substance operation.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm done with this topic.

The "Kobe-bashers" are going to rip him no matter what.

I still maintain that this team is not going anywhere anyway, so it is no big deal if Kobe shot jacks them into oblivion.

But if it somehow makes you feel better to rip the guy at the end of his career...be my guest.

Oh, and if by some remote chance that this team does turn it around without Kobe...great.

[tpols]

He had a team with three other surefire HoFers and he refused to change his game AT ALL. On a team with that many offensive threats he shoved Nash aside (and Nash has some JUICY quotes on the matter) and initiated the offense every time.


Nash missed over 30 games.. Pau only started half the season and also missed 30+ games. Dwight had a negative offensive rapm (would love to see you explain that one :oldlol:). And it wasn't just Kobe.. Dwight had a negative offensive rapm last year too.

While Kobe had by a large margin the highest offensive rapm of any Laker in 2013. How many times are you and others going to distort context to fit an agenda?

[6 for 24]

it is no big deal if Kobe shot jacks them into oblivion.


As a self-proclaimed Kobe stan and follower of the Kobe system, I wholeheartedly agree with this take!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyl5sfHtXy1qbdkzho2_500.gif

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

[KobesFinger]

Nash missed over 30 games.. Pau only started half the season and also missed 30+ games. Dwight had a negative offensive rapm (would love to see you explain that one :oldlol:). And it wasn't just Kobe.. Dwight had a negative offensive rapm last year too.

While Kobe had by a large margin the highest offensive rapm of any Laker in 2013. How many times are you and others going to distort context to fit an agenda?

Exactly, people conveniently forget that Nash, Howard and Gasol were all injured at various points so the team never developed any chemistry

[Hey Yo]

I'm done with this topic.

The "Kobe-bashers" are going to rip him no matter what.

I still maintain that this team is not going anywhere anyway, so it is no big deal if Kobe shot jacks them into oblivion.

But if it somehow makes you feel better to rip the guy at the end of his career...be my guest.

Oh, and if by some remote chance that this team does turn it around without Kobe...great.
Without Kobe shot jacking, it lets his younger so-called "soft mother****ing teammates" a chance to showcase themselves for other teams who may be interested in them in the future.

Other GM's and scouts can't get a read on players who's job is to watch their teammate take 30 shots a game.

Kobe's hurting his teammates possible future earnings.

[HurricaneKid]

Nash missed over 30 games.. Pau only started half the season and also missed 30+ games. Dwight had a negative offensive rapm (would love to see you explain that one :oldlol:). And it wasn't just Kobe.. Dwight had a negative offensive rapm last year too.

While Kobe had by a large margin the highest offensive rapm of any Laker in 2013. How many times are you and others going to distort context to fit an agenda?

Dwight had a negative offensive RAPM (which has actually been the case for a great many of his seasons). Kobe had a negative defensive RAPM. Dwight's defensive RAPM >>> Kobe's offensive RAPM. Ergo, Dwight's RAPM while he was getting swallowed by the hate of the rabid LAL fans > Kobe's.

One of us distorted facts and it wasn't me...

The insane misuse of Pau et al came as a direct result of the arrogance of hillbilly Buss to look at his aging team of slow players and decide that they needed a coach espousing a fast break theology. I'm not blaming Kobe for that.

[HurricaneKid]

I'm done with this topic.

The "Kobe-bashers" are going to rip him no matter what.

I still maintain that this team is not going anywhere anyway, so it is no big deal if Kobe shot jacks them into oblivion.

But if it somehow makes you feel better to rip the guy at the end of his career...be my guest.

Oh, and if by some remote chance that this team does turn it around without Kobe...great.

Big picture you are probably right. The Lakers give up their pick if its not in the top 5. So playing good ball would actually hurt them.

On the other hand, no player in the history of the game has tried to lose games. And now you are saying Kobe should do just that. And in the same breath saying "Kobe Bashers rip him no matter what".

You have to grasp the irony.

The game is moving to a ball movement structure across the league to fight the new defensive strategies that have been implemented over the last ~4-7 years. But never has a player coupled such a high usage rate with such brazen inefficiency. Thats not hate. Thats a fact. I get TPols, etc disagreeing with my 11-12 discussion of Kobe. He was a really great offensive player then. I don't get defending his play this season. Its been indefensible.

[ArbitraryWater]

He was surely talking about Lebron. Anything he posted could relate to him easily.


Kobe is just a shell, to be sure. Does he hurt the team when he plays? Probably. But who cares? This team wouldn't win 20 games without him.

Part of it is his fault. His contract is killing them. That is one of the reasons they have to sign these players that no one else wants.

Having said that, though. He is their ONLY player who can get his shot. Even now, he commands doubles and triples. Furthermore, he has PASSED the ball at times this season. He has had a 30 point triple double. But, what good does it do? Time-and-again, he is doubled, with defenders draped all over him, and if he passes the ball to a wide open teammate, they either airball the shot, or throw the ball away.

But even beyond all of that...he is now getting ripped here for his play in his ENTIRE career. And you and I both know that he is a Top-10 player all-time. Only complete idiots would come out of the woodwork at this point in his career, and make ridiculous claims like he was hurting his team all these years.


He's not joining the circle of 3 greatest, and never will. He's second tier.


comprende?

Reading isn't that hard, bub.

[smoovegittar]

Nice to see Kobe threads getting the action. Still best player in NBA right now, apparently. :applause:

[Cold soul]

Kobe's top 5 days ended after he won his title in 09. I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm not even a hater. Kobe was GREAT from 01-09 with a few sharp lapses. But this thing where you give him credit for all his teammates' contributions is stale. When you play for your legacy you have to PLAY not SCORE. And he has been horrific defensively for years now. This is not a new development this season.

Kobe doesn't change his game. Never has and never will. GOAT(ish) coach said so in his book. Age won't do it either.


Kobe was top five player in 2010 and 2012-2013 season I had him second or third best player that season he had flashback year.

[La Frescobaldi]

comprende?

Reading isn't that hard, bub.

there's not a top 10, bub. comprende?

It's tiered, bub. comprende? And Bryant ain't in the top tier, as Lazeruss knows. Bub.

comprende?

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe was top five player in 2010 and 2012-2013 season I had him second or third best player that season he had flashback year.

He won a title in 10. That does weird things to the math. But Pau led the team in RAPM, WS, postseason RAPM, postseason WS, Finals WS, Finals RAPM. They were at least co-team leaders.

And the data isn't close. Not even just the offensive data.

And top 2-3 in 2012-13? Defend yourself. Thats an insane statement that would lead me to put you on ignore without some defense (which I will admittedly likely scoff at).

[ArbitraryWater]

there's not a top 10, bub. comprende?

It's tiered, bub. comprende? And Bryant ain't in the top tier, as Lazeruss knows. Bub.

comprende?

That is what I'm saying, bub... read it again.. comprende?

[tpols]

Dwight had a negative offensive RAPM (which has actually been the case for a great many of his seasons). Kobe had a negative defensive RAPM. Dwight's defensive RAPM >>> Kobe's offensive RAPM. Ergo, Dwight's RAPM while he was getting swallowed by the hate of the rabid LAL fans > Kobe's.

One of us distorted facts and it wasn't me...

The insane misuse of Pau et al came as a direct result of the arrogance of hillbilly Buss to look at his aging team of slow players and decide that they needed a coach espousing a fast break theology. I'm not blaming Kobe for that.

I responded to your post saying "Kobe joined three surefire HoFers and refused to change his game AT all" with specific reference to Steve Nash implying Kobe was being stubborn offensively when in reality two of your '3 hofers' were injured for most of the year and one was a negative offensively.. While Kobe had one of the better offensive impacts in the whole league.



Your post does nothing to address my reply and is using strawmans

[20Four]

OP just copy and paste this from LG: :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=171579


Gasol helped turn around a franchise still searching for an identity after Shaquille O'Neal left in 2004 via trade to Miami. In the first three seasons after O’Neal’s departure, the Lakers missed the playoffs once and twice failed to reach the second round. After Gasol arrived, they reached three straight NBA Finals.

Beyond that, Kobe Bryant’s winning percentage in the three seasons after O’Neal left and before Gasol arrived was .520, but with Gasol by his side, that percentage rose to .689, including 13 playoff series wins.

How ****ing biased is this? What was Pau's winning % before he came to LA? Wasn't he like 0-12 in the playoffs too?

My biggest problem is that even in a nice article about Pau, the writer has to try and discredit Kobe.

Kobe needs to find his game cos it's open season on him now from all the folks he's shut up over the years :mad:


Come on OP lol at least give credit where you got it from: lol

[triangleoffense]

It's not just Kobe, BSPN's hate for the Lakers is well known... a lot of pundits getting even for them getting owned game 7 2010 =/. The Lakers were #1 at the halfway mark when they got gasol in 2008.. BSPN getting stupider and stupider... unwatchable now

[riseagainst]

who cares. The guy is a guaranteed hall of famer. 5 time champion. One of the 10 greatest players of all time. Banging a fine wife, and raping others. He's as successful as any professional athlete can get. He's done it all, on and off the court.

[konex]

OP just copy and paste this from LG: :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Come on OP lol at least give credit where you got it from: lol

Did you ever stop to think that I might post in more than 1 forum? :hammerhead:

[HurricaneKid]

I responded to your post saying "Kobe joined three surefire HoFers and refused to change his game AT all" with specific reference to Steve Nash implying Kobe was being stubborn offensively when in reality two of your '3 hofers' were injured for most of the year and one was a negative offensively.. While Kobe had one of the better offensive impacts in the whole league.



Your post does nothing to address my reply and is using strawmans


And you think that Pau and Nash were rushing to come back when Kobe made their position completely untenable? You think Nash enjoyed being stuck in the corner without the ball?

Do you think Dwight would have left LAL if any other superstar was there besides Kobe?

[tpols]

And you think that Pau and Nash were rushing to come back when Kobe made their position completely untenable? You think Nash enjoyed being stuck in the corner without the ball?

Do you think Dwight would have left LAL if any other superstar was there besides Kobe?

The main reason Dwight left is because he was looking toward the future. With Nash being crippled ever since that year, Kobe missing a ton of time as well, where was the longterm talent or Outlook. There was none.

So he went to play with a young team.. And him and harden had a rocky start with harden bombing out the playoffs playing worse than Kobe ever did in 2013.. But harden is young and has good years ahead of him.. Kobe has played more minutes than anybody in the league. That has everything to do with the choices dwight made.

Dwight's still a negative on offense and it's been proven that whatever team hes on is better off running the offense through a star guard rather than himself. In LA Dwight carried an attitude like he could still score like in Orlando.. When he couldn't. He's been far worse offensively in Houston and LA than he was in Orlando. I think he's finally getting that now though with how Hardens played this season.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

And you think that Pau and Nash were rushing to come back when Kobe made their position completely untenable? You think Nash enjoyed being stuck in the corner without the ball?

Nash played like a third of the season and wasn't that great when he was playing. Pau's problems were with injury and D'Antoni not knowing how to utilize him. Same with Dwight.


Do you think Dwight would have left LAL if any other superstar was there besides Kobe?

Depends. Would the team/organization still have no discernible future in terms of young talent/picks? Does the other superstar in question have an achilles tear like Kobe? If the answers to those questions are yes, then yes, Dwight leaves just the same.

[Elosha]

who cares. The guy is a guaranteed hall of famer. 5 time champion. One of the 10 greatest players of all time. Banging a fine wife, and raping others. He's as successful as any professional athlete can get. He's done it all, on and off the court.

Dude, propping up someone for supposed rapes, even if you're kidding, is never cool.

[riseagainst]

Dude, propping up someone for supposed rapes, even if you're kidding, is never cool.

i want talking about raping others in on the basketball court, in a professional setting. Not literally. :confusedshrug: