Where does a 20+ppg Rose/Butler duo rank among best back courts in the nba?

[Clocian-IGN]

With both Rose and Butler's continuous improvement where do you rank a Rose/Butler backcourt?

[J Shuttlesworth]

When Rose is healthy, best backcourt in the league. More elite defensively than the Splash brothers, and still huge offensive threats.

[The_Pharcyde]

Best backcourt in the league no doubt

[Clocian-IGN]

I agree with the both of you :cheers:. By February Bulls will have the best back court and one of if not the best starting bigs. Pretty scary.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I agree with the both of you :cheers:. By February Bulls will have the best back court and one of if not the best starting bigs. Pretty scary.
How is Noah doing with the injuries? I think someone was saying the Bulls staff thinks his health will be bad all year... any truth to that/insight?

[Clocian-IGN]

How is Noah doing with the injuries? I think someone was saying the Bulls staff thinks his health will be bad all year... any truth to that/insight?

Coming back from knee surgery. Will be a process. He's still good defensively. It's just that he has absolutely no offense right now outside of his passing but with Rose, Jimmy, Pau brooks, Mirotic, Taj, and sometimes Dunleavy we are having no problem with offense. As a team we can definitely get better defensively, we just need time for the starting unit to gel

[JohnMax]

Bulls are stacked. No excuse.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Bulls are stacked. No excuse.
So stacked that they are the 4th seed in the almighty east :eek:

[Clocian-IGN]

So stacked that they are the 4th seed in the almighty east :eek:

We are stacked. Just been fighting injuries. We just got healthy and have been playing great ball. The only spot we are thin at is at the 3 with the other rookie out til like late Jan with a injury

[andremiller07]

Honestly with how well Butler has been going it can be Rose avg 12ppg and they are still one of the better backcourts in particular when Rose get's back to playing excellent D.

[The Macho Man]

Who is 20+ppg rose?

[The Macho Man]

Anyhow 3rd

Curry and klay and wall and beal are clearly much better to anyone with half a brain

[Clocian-IGN]

Anyhow 3rd

Curry and klay and wall and beal are clearly much better to anyone with half a brain

How is wall/Beal better?

Rose > Wall
Jimmy > Beal

[The Macho Man]

How is wall/Beal better?

Rose > Wall
Jimmy > Beal

Lol

Wall is a better pg than rose could ever dream of being. You know running a team, making people better. Not to mention he doesn't have an actual learning disability. Rose does have that retardstrength tho

And butler is the most overrated player in ish history

[GimmeThat]

I dont know if they are the best

But its as if the third guard coming off the bench just doesnt matter any more

[Clocian-IGN]

Lol

Wall is a better pg than rose could ever dream of being. You know running a team, making people better. Not to mention he doesn't have an actual learning disability. Rose does have that retardstrength tho

And butler is the most overrated player in ish history

You are the retarded one if you think Rose doesn't make his team better. You must have been so salty when Rose owned wall the other day and closed that game out. :lol. And lmao at butler being the most overrated player in ISH history.

It's clear as day you mad about something, so stay mad :lol

[Pointguard]

Right now its still the splash brothers. Come Feb. I'm thinking it changes. As the game slows down as Rose will do, and the playoffs will do, they are really going to make their mark.

[The_Pharcyde]

Lol

Wall is a better pg than rose could ever dream of being. You know running a team, making people better. Not to mention he doesn't have an actual learning disability. Rose does have that retardstrength tho

And butler is the most overrated player in ish history

Woahhhhh someone this mad on Christmas

I'm rooting for you boss

[SugarHill]

Lol

Wall is a better pg than rose could ever dream of being. You know running a team, making people better. Not to mention he doesn't have an actual learning disability. Rose does have that retardstrength tho

And butler is the most overrated player in ish history
Beal is way more overrated than Butler.

[Milbuck]

2nd to splash bros. If Rose keeps up his recent level of play, or even returns to consistent 2011-form, it's really a tossup. Him and Curry would be neck and neck, probably an edge to Curry, but Butler would be ahead of Thompson. The scary part is that Rose and Butler are still developing chemistry on the court, haven't played alongside each other much at all..by the end of the season they could be the best two-way backcourt once they really know each other's games, and if/when Rose picks up his defense to go with his resurgent offense.

[Human Error]

The Warriors have better backcourt. Curry is better than Rose. Butler is great and became the best guard on the team though.

[dontgetchoked]

You are the retarded one if you think Rose doesn't make his team better. You must have been so salty when Rose owned wall the other day and closed that game out. :lol. And lmao at butler being the most overrated player in ISH history.

It's clear as day you mad about something, so stay mad :lol

http://i.imgur.com/a4t4lFq.jpg

[All Net]

If rose is healthy one of the best no doubt.

[LoneyROY7]

How is wall/Beal better?

Rose > Wall
Jimmy > Beal

:facepalm

Take off the Rose-colored glasses. Wall is clearly the better player right now.

[r0drig0lac]

Best backcourt in the league no doubt
this

[MrC1991]

We should have the best back court in the league around or after the all star break. Very excited for the playoffs.

[The Macho Man]

Beal is way more overrated than Butler.
You suffering from that drose syndrome too dum dum?

[The Macho Man]

You are the retarded one if you think Rose doesn't make his team better. You must have been so salty when Rose owned wall the other day and closed that game out. :lol. And lmao at butler being the most overrated player in ISH history.

It's clear as day you mad about something, so stay mad :lol
Rose makes them a little better
Wall makes rasual butler look good. Rasual. Butler.

[Kblaze8855]

There is no reasonable comparison between Butler and Beal this season.

Wesley Matthews is outplaying Beal and nobody even cares he exists.

He and Lilliard are ahead of Wall/beal if only for Beal looking like Troy Hudson so far.

[Eric Cartman]

Splash

[The Macho Man]

There is no reasonable comparison between Butler and Beal this season.

Wesley Matthews is outplaying Beal and nobody even cares he exists.

He and Lilliard are ahead of Wall/beal if only for Beal looking like Troy Hudson so far.
Beal is shooting 16 percent better from 3 than troy did in his career

Mostly due to wall getting people COMPLETELY wide open shots, but still

[Pointguard]

In three of the last five games Rose has taken over the fourth quarter and his floater has been the best shot in basketball. Its been a short period of time, true... . but he's had these elements in his game since day one and its always been improving.

[tontoz]

1) Splash brothers
2) Lillard/Mathews

No other backcourt is competitive with either of these two now.

[dontgetchoked]

we're not there yet, but derrick's play has been trending upwards, and he's still average 18/5 on 45% with jimmys 22/6 on 48% theyre still a top 5 backcourt. give rose a few weeks, if he keeps dominating, they can be right up there with the splash brothers.

[PistonsFan#21]

No love for Rondo / Ellis ?

too early? :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

Beal is shooting 16 percent better from 3 than troy did in his career

Mostly due to wall getting people COMPLETELY wide open shots, but still

Troy in 03 14/6/2 43/37/90

Beal this year 15/3/3 43/46/80

Id take Beal over Troy...but...hes playing roughly Troy Hudson level ball. I expect it to improve...just saying...hes not doing too much right now. I expected more this year.

[freshperry]

Lol

Wall is a better pg than rose could ever dream of being. You know running a team, making people better. Not to mention he doesn't have an actual learning disability. Rose does have that retardstrength tho

And butler is the most overrated player in ish history

This is a bad time for this statement seeing that the bulls backcourt beat the wizards backcourt pretty bad last game. Wall did have major foul trouble which hurt his rhythm.

[tontoz]

Beals midrange jumper has never been good but is a disaster this season so far. Shooting roughly 30% on 2 point jumpers.

At least he is driving more this season.

I agree that Wes Mathews is very underrated.

[tontoz]

This is a bad time for this statement seeing that the bulls backcourt beat the wizards backcourt pretty bad last game. Wall did have major foul trouble which hurt his rhythm.

Not sure what you are talking about.

Wall had 18/9 and Beal outscored Butler with a better shooting percentage. Granted Butler played a lot of minutes the previous night.

The Bulls punked the Wizards on the boards but the Wizards backcourt was fine.

[SamuraiSWISH]

we're not there yet, but derrick's play has been trending upwards, and he's still average 18/5 on 45% with jimmys 22/6 on 48% theyre still a top 5 backcourt. give rose a few weeks, if he keeps dominating, they can be right up there with the splash brothers.
Derrick does that at 30 mpg too

[freshperry]

Not sure what you are talking about.

Wall had 18/9 and Beal outscored Butler with a better shooting percentage. Granted Butler played a lot of minutes the previous night.

The Bulls punked the Wizards on the boards but the Wizards backcourt was fine.

Thats true the bulls have really good big men help the guards a lot. I would still say the bulls backcourt had a better game since they scored more overall points and won the game. Also, you have to keep in mind rose is only playing approx 30 minutes a game.

[tontoz]

Thats true the bulls have really good big men help the guards a lot. I would still say the bulls backcourt had a better game since they scored more overall points and won the game. Also, you have to keep in mind rose is only playing approx 30 minutes a game.


Rose had only 4 assists and 5 turnovers. Butler shot 4-13. I don't see how anyone can argue that the Bulls backcourt badly outplayed the Wizards'.

[dontgetchoked]

Rose had only 4 assists and 5 turnovers. Butler shot 4-13. I don't see how anyone can argue that the Bulls backcourt badly outplayed the Wizards'.

you act like you didnt watch the game. Wall had nice stats, but he couldn't do anything outside of fast break layups. last 3 minutes of the game, wall got owned.

http://i.imgur.com/a4t4lFq.jpg

[tontoz]

you act like you didnt watch the game. Wall had nice stats, but he couldn't do anything outside of fast break layups. last 3 minutes of the game, wall got owned.




There are 48 minutes in a game, not 3. And there is more to the game than scoring.

4 assists and 5 turnovers isn't good for a pg.

[dontgetchoked]

There are 48 minutes in a game, not 3. And there is more to the game than scoring.

4 assists and 5 turnovers isn't good for a pg.
the last 3 mins when the wizards were up 1 point and wall proceeded to miss a bunch of shots and turn it over, while rose scored 10 straight points to win the game for his team. that is the most important part of the game. The bulls run an ISO heavy offense, so rose doesn't dribble the ball alot and get many assists until the end of games. people are too into stats. the most important stat is the Win.

[beastee]

There are 48 minutes in a game, not 3. And there is more to the game than scoring.

4 assists and 5 turnovers isn't good for a pg.
Salty as **** and wrong. Rose took over and wall crumbled when the game mattered. Two of roses turnovers were for stepping out of bounds. But believe that come playoff time it will be obvious whom the best backcourt plays for.

[Dengness9]

I hope this thread isn't blurring the lines of the season Wall is having. Not a Wall Street guy but the kid balls out, one of the most entertaining players hands down too.

[qrich]

Right behind a 25ppg Darren Collison and 20 ppg Nik Stauskas.

Really though, 5 apg to 3.3 turnovers is pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

[Milbuck]

Right behind a 25ppg Darren Collison and 20 ppg Nik Stauskas.

Really though, 5 apg to 3.3 turnovers is pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.
Not really. I don't know when assist/turnover ratio became so popular, but people are putting way too much value into that stat. Rose has been excellent the last few games, no matter what the assist/turnover stats show. He's controlling the tempo of the game, he's picking his spots and taking good shots, attacking and collapsing the defense when necessary, and finding the open teammate when available. He's playing smart basketball for most of the game and then taking over completely like a true franchise player should at the ends of games. Chicago's offense will never give him the huge assist totals of a Rondo or a CP3, and his style of play will never be safe enough to have ridiculously low turnover rates. But his impact on the game and ability to make everyone around him better is truly special. They were talking about it on ITN, his ability to make everybody better around him while playing a nontraditional, scoring PG game is really unique...the playmaking stats will never do him justice.

[tontoz]

Salty as **** and wrong. Rose took over and wall crumbled when the game mattered. Two of roses turnovers were for stepping out of bounds. But believe that come playoff time it will be obvious whom the best backcourt plays for.


You are an idiot.

First of all i made no comment as to which backcourt is better. I was commenting on who was better in that game. Trying to say that the Bulls backcourt was better just because of a 3 minute stretch by Rose is homer nonsense.

Wall single handedly led the Wizards comeback with 10 points in the 4th quarter. The Wizards were down 10 points when Wall came into the game in the 4th. He quickly scored 10 points and had 2 assists to put them in the lead by 1.

Wall had 9 assists to only 4 for Rose and Butler was a non-factor.

[ImKobe]

You are an idiot.

First of all i made no comment as to which backcourt is better. I was commenting on who was better in that game. Trying to say that the Bulls backcourt was better just because of a 3 minute stretch by Rose is homer nonsense.

Wall single handedly led the Wizards comeback with 10 points in the 4th quarter. The Wizards were down 10 points when Wall came into the game in the 4th. He quickly scored 10 points and had 2 assists to put them in the lead by 1.

Wall had 9 assists to only 4 for Rose and Butler was a non-factor.

Who won the game?

[tontoz]

Who won the game?

Leave it to a Kobe stan to dumb down the thread even further.

What is the price of tea in China?

[StephHamann]

No love for Rondo / Ellis ?

too early? :confusedshrug:

:biggums:

[Sambacher]

Anyhow 3rd

Curry and klay and wall and beal are clearly much better to anyone with half a brain
I can see a very valid argument for Curry an Klay but acting like Wall and Beal are just hands down better is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. A healthy Rose is very comparable to what Wall is doing right now just not AS good at the playmaking, and Butler is playing out of his mind with elite defense... easily better than Beal

[Pointguard]

There are 48 minutes in a game, not 3. And there is more to the game than scoring.

4 assists and 5 turnovers isn't good for a pg.
There is more to the game than scoring... winning it. Or in Rose's case, taking it over. There is nothing that's going to top that. If it happened in three minutes, that was all that was needed to outdo Wall's game.


You are an idiot.

First of all i made no comment as to which backcourt is better. I was commenting on who was better in that game. Trying to say that the Bulls backcourt was better just because of a 3 minute stretch by Rose is homer nonsense.

Wall single handedly led the Wizards comeback with 10 points in the 4th quarter. The Wizards were down 10 points when Wall came into the game in the 4th. He quickly scored 10 points and had 2 assists to put them in the lead by 1.

Wall had 9 assists to only 4 for Rose and Butler was a non-factor.Obviously taking over the game while Wall was missing and not contributing decided the outcome of the game. Those three minutes were the critical three minutes of the game. The three minutes that put the game in the record books. The two players on each side didn't separate themselves from each other, for 44 minutes.

But by no means does this mean that Wall hasn't been one of the best point guards this season. He's been complete and leading his team as good as any this year.


Right behind a 25ppg Darren Collison and 20 ppg Nik Stauskas.

Really though, 5 apg to 3.3 turnovers is pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.
Not at all. They are all learning each other and two games out of first place is fine - especially when you consider the games Rose missed and how many more Road games they played verses the other top teams. With good health they will likely have the best record in the East. Rose has had adaption issues but he's taking over games now, which is a great place to be for the new year. You're letting stats overwhelm your perspective. If you think its absolutely pathetic that's your issue. Not reality at all.

[tontoz]

Obviously taking over the game while Wall was missing and not contributing decided the outcome of the game. Those three minutes were the critical three minutes of the game.

LMAO so ignorant. All points count the same.

Wall had 10 points and 2 assists in the 4th. He missed 3 shots and had 1 turnover.

Rose had 10 points with no assists in the 4th. He missed 2 shots and had 2 turnovers.

Dat domination :bowdown:

The Bulls outrebounded the Wizards by 11 even though they had a tough game the night before. That is what decided the game.

[dontgetchoked]

LMAO so ignorant. All points count the same.

Wall had 10 points and 2 assists in the 4th. He missed 3 shots and had 1 turnover.

Rose had 10 points with no assists in the 4th. He missed 2 shots and had 2 turnovers.

Dat domination :bowdown:

The Bulls outrebounded the Wizards by 11 even though they had a tough game the night before. That is what decided the game.
wall lost, rose won. dat domination :bowdown:

[Pointguard]

LMAO so ignorant. All points count the same.

Wall had 10 points and 2 assists in the 4th. He missed 3 shots and had 1 turnover.

Rose had 10 points with no assists in the 4th. He missed 2 shots and had 2 turnovers.

Dat domination :bowdown:

The Bulls outrebounded the Wizards by 11 even though they had a tough game the night before. That is what decided the game.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

At the end of the game the basket gets smaller, psychologically. The points mean more when the game is on the line. Simple question, how many closers are there in the game now? There are usually only a half a dozen at a time in the league. Same value as other baskets quantitatively, yes, but in quality a whole different reality.

Domination does apply because look at what the opposition did due to the pressure Rose put on them when Washington had the lead. Rose scored 8 points to take the lead and put the game out of reach. Rose 8 points, Washington 2 points. Close game before Rose goes off, not a close game once he does. The deal was done. Wall wasn't going to do a thing to change it.

[tontoz]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

At the end of the game the basket gets smaller, psychologically. The points mean more when the game is on the line. Simple question, how many closers are there in the game now? There are usually only a half a dozen at a time in the league. Same value as other baskets quantitatively, yes, but in quality a whole different reality.

Domination does apply because look at what the opposition did due to the pressure Rose put on them when Washington had the lead. Rose scored 8 points to take the lead and put the game out of reach. Rose 8 points, Washington 2 points. Close game before Rose goes off, not a close game once he does. The deal was done. Wall wasn't going to do a thing to change it.


The Wizards were down 9 with 6 minutes left. Then Wall outscored Rose 10-0 over the next 3:00 to singlehandedly bring the Wizards back.

The Wizards lost by 8 but were +3 with Wall on the court. On the other hand the Bulls were only +2 with Rose, +14 with Brooks.

The Bulls bench outscored our bench by 13 and had 8 more rebounds but lets give all the credit to Rose.:rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

Not really. I don't know when assist/turnover ratio became so popular, but people are putting way too much value into that stat. Rose has been excellent the last few games, no matter what the assist/turnover stats show. He's controlling the tempo of the game, he's picking his spots and taking good shots, attacking and collapsing the defense when necessary, and finding the open teammate when available. He's playing smart basketball for most of the game and then taking over completely like a true franchise player should at the ends of games. Chicago's offense will never give him the huge assist totals of a Rondo or a CP3, and his style of play will never be safe enough to have ridiculously low turnover rates. But his impact on the game and ability to make everyone around him better is truly special. They were talking about it on ITN, his ability to make everybody better around him while playing a nontraditional, scoring PG game is really unique...the playmaking stats will never do him justice.

http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

It is interesting to see Rose's critics reduced to invoking assist-to-turnover ratio. I thought Rose was washed up? :oldlol: Rose is back and will only continue to get better over the next few months. He will be scary when playoff time rolls around. :bowdown:

[tontoz]

Looking at clutch play for all players. Less than 5 minutes in the 4th or OT, game within 5 points.

Wall is 4th in shots made, shooting 55.3%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2015&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

Monta Ellis is the only player in the league that has made as many clutch shots as Wall and shot as well.

[nba_55]

1. Curry/Thompson
2. Wall/Beal
3. Rose/Butler and Lillard/ Matthews

[tontoz]

1. Curry/Thompson
2. Wall/Beal
3. Rose/Butler


Lillard/Mathews has been better than Wall/Beal. Rose/Butler haven't even played enough to be in the conversation.

[Pointguard]

The Wizards were down 9 with 6 minutes left. Then Wall outscored Rose 10-0 over the next 3:00 to singlehandedly bring the Wizards back. Wouldn't it have been better if he did that with 5 seconds left to go?


The Wizards lost by 8 but were +3 with Wall on the court. On the other hand the Bulls were only +2 with Rose, +14 with Brooks.

The Bulls bench outscored our bench by 13 and had 8 more rebounds but lets give all the credit to Rose.:rolleyes:


http://i.imgur.com/a4t4lFq.jpg

[tontoz]

Wouldn't it have been better if he did that with 5 seconds left to go?


Let me clue you in on a little secret. Points scored at the 5 minute mark count the same as points scored at the 2 minute mark.

And Wall has been a top player in the clutch all season long. He is shooting 56% in the last 5 minutes of the 4th and OT in tight games, better than Rose has ever done in his entire career.

Why did the Bulls have more success when Rose was on the bench?

[Kblaze8855]

Let me clue you in on a little secret. Points scored at the 5 minute mark count the same as points scored at the 2 minute mark.

If it didnt matter when you scored...just that your total is high...Karl Malone would be a lot higher on the all time list than he is.

Being able to generate a makeable shot when you need it separates an awful lot of good players from great ones. When the rest is fairly even....thats often the difference between winning and losing.

[tontoz]

If it didnt matter when you scored...just that your total is high...Karl Malone would be a lot higher on the all time list than he is.

Being able to generate a makeable shot when you need it separates an awful lot of good players from great ones. When the rest is fairly even....thats often the difference between winning and losing.



The reality is that the Bulls were +6 with Rose on the bench. The Wizards were -11 with Wall on the bench. That is the story of the game.

While Rose has been in a suit Wall has been one of the most clutch players in the league. The Wizards are 7-2 in games decided by less than 5 points primarily due to Wall.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2015&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

[eeeeeebro]

add brooks to that and well there is a clear cut best back court

[dontgetchoked]

Why did the Bulls have more success when Rose was on the bench?

because plus minus is a stupid stat when used out of context. bulls have a better bench than the wizards, so our bench unit outplayed the shit out of yours... of course brooks had a high plus minus. you trying to say brooks played better than rose because he had a higher plus minus? :facepalm

[TheMan]

Just keep in mind that Jimmy Buckets is only going to get better offensively, he's young and still learning, he has great efficiency and is only taking 14 shots per game. He is a legitimately near future 25 PPG, lock down defender All Star potential baller, with that work ethic and mindset, the sky's the limit. The Bulls are so lucky to have drafted him and they better lock him down now. Now add to that Rose, if he get's back to his 2011 version, it's over for the rest of the NBA backcourts, we've got this...:rockon:

[tontoz]

Why did the Bulls have more success when Rose was on the bench?

because plus minus is a stupid stat when used out of context. bulls have a better bench than the wizards, so our bench unit outplayed the shit out of yours... of course brooks had a high plus minus. you trying to say brooks played better than rose because he had a higher plus minus? :facepalm

I am saying that the bench disparity, in points and rebounds, is the reason the Bulls won the game.

The starting backcourts were not the issue. Wall/Beal combined for 33 points (50%+ shooting) 12 assists and 4 steals. Acting like Rose/Butler outplayed Wall/Beal is homer nonsense.

[Pointguard]

I am saying that the bench disparity, in points and rebounds, is the reason the Bulls won the game.

The starting backcourts were not the issue. Wall/Beal combined for 33 points (50%+ shooting) 12 assists and 4 steals. Acting like Rose/Butler outplayed Wall/Beal is homer nonsense.
With three minutes to go neither team had their benches in the game - for the rest of the game. The game was basically tied. It is therefore impossible for the bench to have won the game. What happened at the three minute mark that won the game??? Did the bench players points become more points? Did their earlier rebounds reshape the game while they were on the bench??

[tontoz]

With three minutes to go neither team had their benches in the game - for the rest of the game. The game was basically tied. It is therefore impossible for the bench to have won the game. What happened at the three minute mark that won the game??? Did the bench players points become more points? Did their earlier rebounds reshape the game while they were on the bench??



Rose's late scoring just kept him from being a net negative for the game.

When Wall was in the game the Wizards outscored the Bulls. It was the 11 minutes when Wall sat that the Bulls dominated.

Just try to enjoy Rose while he is actually playing. It might not last long. He might want to take some notes from Brooks about being a pg rather than a sg.

[guy]

Bulls literally might have both the best backcourt and frontcourt rotations in the league when healthy. Health is a big factor.

[Pointguard]

Rose's late scoring just kept him from being a net negative for the game. Rather you like it or not. It won the game.


When Wall was in the game the Wizards outscored the Bulls. It was the 11 minutes when Wall sat that the Bulls dominated. The last four minutes of the game, when the game was determined, who was most responsible for the outcome?


Just try to enjoy Rose while he is actually playing. It might not last long. He might want to take some notes from Brooks about being a pg rather than a sg.
Rose lead his team to the best record in the league despite them having crazy injuries. He's the only PG that can make that claim while being the best player on his team.

http://media.ifunny.com/results/2014/04/26/5e0x16frw0.jpg

[freshperry]

You are an idiot.

First of all i made no comment as to which backcourt is better. I was commenting on who was better in that game. Trying to say that the Bulls backcourt was better just because of a 3 minute stretch by Rose is homer nonsense.

Wall single handedly led the Wizards comeback with 10 points in the 4th quarter. The Wizards were down 10 points when Wall came into the game in the 4th. He quickly scored 10 points and had 2 assists to put them in the lead by 1.

Wall had 9 assists to only 4 for Rose and Butler was a non-factor.

Wall definitely had a good game and he was the reason for the come back. However, we were mentioning about the backcourt and i dont think beal necessarily had one of his better games. On top of that, the bulls got that 10 point lead because rose was playing well. When the wizards went on that run to put them up by 1, it was Rose who had the clutch shot after shot to regain the momentum. In conjuction with butler's defense and it being crunch time, wall was forced into a half court offense and actually missed 2 jumpers in a row.

[Clocian-IGN]

add brooks to that and well there is a clear cut best back court

Indeed. Bulls by far has the best back and front court rotation. Only weak spot which needs to get addressed is the SF.

[Kblaze8855]

The reality is that the Bulls were +6 with Rose on the bench. The Wizards were -11 with Wall on the bench. That is the story of the game.

Please. A guy has a steal and 8 points in like a minute to take a 1 point game to an insurmountable lead...they have always been given props. Nobody is saying the Bulls are a poor team. But you cant watch that game and conclude honestly that Rose didnt take it over and win it at the end.

The idea that it doesnt matter when you score is just indefensible.

If you could guarantee your team is gonna make 3 straight shots when you choose....if you used them down the stretch of every close game instead of early in every game...you would probably be able to make a 50 win team a 70 win team.

It just matters more the less time the opponent has to do something in response.

[nathanjizzle]

What is there to argue,rose got the better of John wall. Tell me why john never scored on rose in the first three quarters. He had ten points in a three minute stretch and eight points outside of that? If that three minute stretch never happened youd be talking about john wall with 11 points or someshit.

[Kblaze8855]

I don't care who outplayed who. But to try to make the "story of the game" a plus minus rating? Rose had 25/4 on 59% shooting in only 28 minutes while taking over the game down the stretch...and the story of the game...is his plus/minus?

Few days earlier he had 31/5/3 on 58%...he scores or assists on 6 field goals in the closing minutes as he and Brooks tag in and out killing the Blazers. Same game Lillard has 35/6/5 on 62% shooting with 7 threes.

Both of them going off in one of the best games of the year.

Rose plus minus? -5.

Lillards? -3.

So whats the story? Equally ineffective guards cancel eachother out as teammates decide the game?

That isn't how it works.

Teams go on runs or give up a basket or two with or without whoever...all the time...it doesn't mean you aren't powering your team to the win. The Blazers may have been -5 with Lillard on the court...but without him I suspect they aren't even in the game. Bulls -3 with Rose....but he flat out came in and put them to sleep.

So what does it matter?

How does it reflect poorly on either of their performances?

You know Shaq had a -6 plus/minus in game one of the 01 finals when he had 44/20/5? Had -3 in game one of the 02 finals too...despite 36/16/4.

I don't think anyone considered Shaqs lack of impact to be the story of either game.

Some of these number people lean on....just fly in the face of reality.

Rose was great...and won us the game down the stretch. Lillard damn near killed the Bulls when we played them....and Rose was almost as good in response...even with both of them in the negatives.

When plus/minus goes against common sense and observation...im not considering it.

[tontoz]

Rose fans love to ignore that a pg has other responsibilities besides scoring. Rose had only 4 assists and 5 turnovers. When a pg has more turnovers than assists that is a fail. No getting around that.

There hasn't been a game this year where Wall has had more turnovers than assists. It has already happened to Rose 4 times.

There is a reason why guys like Ariza, Webster and now Butler have career years playing with Wall.

The Bulls bench had 37/21 compared to 24/13 from the Wiz bench, but let's give all the credit to Rose:rolleyes:

What was Rose doing when Wall erased a 9 point lead in 3 minutes? Sleeping? Wall was the one who took over and got the Wizards back in it. Good for Rose that he finally woke up and did something.

Wall has easily been the better player in crunch time this season. Not even close.

[tontoz]

Wall definitely had a good game and he was the reason for the come back. However, we were mentioning about the backcourt and i dont think beal necessarily had one of his better games. On top of that, the bulls got that 10 point lead because rose was playing well. When the wizards went on that run to put them up by 1, it was Rose who had the clutch shot after shot to regain the momentum. In conjuction with butler's defense and it being crunch time, wall was forced into a half court offense and actually missed 2 jumpers in a row.


Rose was in the game when Wall erased the 9 point lead that the Bulls had at the 6 minute mark. Funny how everyone keeps ignoring that.

But Wall and Rose were on the bench to start the 4th. The Bulls increased the lead from 5 to 10 in 2 minutes before Wall came back in.

[tontoz]

Rose lead his team to the best record in the league despite them having crazy injuries. He's the only PG that can make that claim while being the best player on his team.


The Bulls have had back to back winning seasons while Rose has been out hurt. It isn't like he has carried a bad team.

[dontgetchoked]

what youre forgetting with all these stats, is that rose missed 2 years due to injury, and he's still giving wall all that he can handle. This isn't even his final form. Rose will continue to get better all the way to the finals :rockon:

[tontoz]

what youre forgetting with all these stats, is that rose missed 2 years due to injury, and he's still giving wall all that he can handle. This isn't even his final form. Rose will continue to get better all the way to the finals :rockon:


Odds are this is his final form....










http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/BKV5z2PCQAAQ6uH_zps5d651cdf.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/BKV5z2PCQAAQ6uH_zps5d651cdf.jpg.html)

[Pointguard]

What was Rose doing when Wall erased a 9 point lead in 3 minutes?

Opening a can of whoop azz.


Sleeping? Wall was the one who took over and got the Wizards back in it. Good for Rose that he finally woke up and did something.
Rose sits out the first five minutes of the 4th quarter to prepare for take over. Wall was a witness.


Wall has easily been the better player in crunch time this season. Not even close.
Rose lead the league in 4th quarter scoring and flipping leads in the fourth quarter one year and he's getting back to that form. Do you think Wall will be like that one day???

I was one of a few that thought Wall was going to be the top PG a year or two after Rose went down the first time. And I think he's in the argument of the best pure PG. I thought he was dissed a lot in favor of Kyrie. Glad to see him on his game. Its harder to be like Wall as the best player on the team and being the PG. Props to him.

[ballinhun8]

Tontoz is sure acting like his name alright.

[dontgetchoked]

Odds are this is his final form....










http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/BKV5z2PCQAAQ6uH_zps5d651cdf.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/BKV5z2PCQAAQ6uH_zps5d651cdf.jpg.html)

yeah injuries are so funny :facepalm how classy of you. there is no need to be upset, we play you guys again this week, maybe you can get a W and you wont have to use dumb ass stats like plus minus to make yourself feel better

[tontoz]

yeah injuries are so funny :facepalm how classy of you. there is no need to be upset, we play you guys again this week, maybe you can get a W and you wont have to use dumb ass stats like plus minus to make yourself feel better


I guess assists and turnovers are dumb stats too. I can certainly see why Rose fans avoid discussing them.

And of course no discussion of the bigs. Taj Gibson outproduced all of our bigs. So did Gasol. But lets' pretend like Rose dominated the game.

[Dengness9]

I guess assists and turnovers are dumb stats too. I can certainly see why Rose fans avoid discussing them.

And of course no discussion of the bigs. Taj Gibson outproduced all of our bigs. So did Gasol. But lets' pretend like Rose dominated the game.


This whole run around youre doing is silly stuff.

Wall is an all star PG in this league and Rose is re finding himself. Both great players. The only reason the Wiz had a chance to win that game was Wall.

However, the person who decided the outcome was Derrick Rose. He completely took over, there is simply no denying it.

[Kblaze8855]

This dude jumping from plus/minus to ****ing assist to turnover ratio claiming


When a pg has more turnovers than assists that is a fail. No getting around that.

There is no such thing as a fail...while leading your team to victory. Its literally not possible....

What do you think the goal is?

Having 12 assists and 0 turnovers...and losing...is failure.

Winning your team the game...is never failure. When you hit 3 jumpers in your opponents eye to win the game while dropping 25 on near 60% shooting....failure is not an applicable term.

A point guard is there to make sure the ball goes into the basket. If he can put it in there...hes failing to do his duty if he chooses not to.

[tontoz]

This dude jumping from plus/minus to ****ing assist to turnover ratio claiming



There is no such thing as a fail...while leading your team to victory. Its literally not possible....

What do you think the goal is?

Having 12 assists and 0 turnovers...and losing...is failure.

Winning your team the game...is never failure. When you hit 3 jumpers in your opponents eye to win the game while dropping 25 on near 60% shooting....failure is not an applicable term.

A point guard is there to make sure the ball goes into the basket. If he can put it in there...hes failing to do his duty if he chooses not to.


The Bulls already had a 10 point lead when Rose came back into the game in the 4th with 6:35 left.
If you want to pretend that not losing a 10 point lead means Rose led them to victory then go ahead. Whatever makes you happy.

[Kblaze8855]

4 baskets and a some FTs when the game got tight makes me believe Rose led his team to victory. Thats...how its been described for all of basketball history.

Lets not get all emotional about it and pretend thats unreasonable to say.

It would have been said of everyone from Tricky Dick Mcguire to Kemba Walker.

A great player returning to form hit a bunch of big shots late in the game to lead his team to the win. If Wall did it it would be just as true. He well may next time.

Lets just be rational people here.

[Milbuck]

Again, lol at this assist to turnover ratio nonsense. This is the same stuff that has people thinking CP3 is better than Westbrook right now. This line of thinking is for people who refuse to accept what they're seeing, and need numerical data to reject it.

Just comical how posters in this thread are trying to act like Rose didn't do anything in that Wiz game, and that his AST/TO ratio somehow means his impact isn't there.

[navy]

Rose and Butler can be the best if Rose comes to form and Butler stays at his level.

[tontoz]

4 baskets and a some FTs when the game got tight makes me believe Rose led his team to victory. Thats...how its been described for all of basketball history.

Lets not get all emotional about it and pretend thats unreasonable to say.

It would have been said of everyone from Tricky Dick Mcguire to Kemba Walker.

A great player returning to form hit a bunch of big shots late in the game to lead his team to the win. If Wall did it it would be just as true. He well may next time.

Lets just be rational people here.


And Rose's mistakes are what allowed the Wizards to get back into the game in the first place.

5:52 Rose turns it over, Wizards score
5:33 Rose gets shot blocked, Wizards score
4:18 Rose misses 3, Wizards score
3:57 Rose turns it over, Wizards score

Dat leadership :bowdown:

[Kblaze8855]

The shit some people argue here is just too childish to take serious.

[Milbuck]

And Rose's mistakes are what allowed the Wizards to get back into the game in the first place.

5:52 Rose turns it over, Wizards score
5:33 Rose gets shot blocked, Wizards score
4:18 Rose misses 3, Wizards score
3:57 Rose turns it over, Wizards score

Dat leadership :bowdown:
And Wall's mistakes are what led to the Bulls (primarily Rose) pulling away.

3:15 - Wall bad pass TO, steal by Rose + the bucket
2:38 - Wall missed jumper
2:20 - Wall foul on Rose, Rose sinks both
1:13 - Wall missed jumper

Washington's leader in the clutch, final minutes of the game?

Marcin Gortat :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[tontoz]

The shit some people argue here is just too childish to take serious.


Yeah, like focusing only on 3 minutes of a game while ignoring the other 45.

[tontoz]

And Wall's mistakes are what led to the Bulls (primarily Rose) pulling away.

3:15 - Wall bad pass TO, steal by Rose + the bucket
2:38 - Wall missed jumper
2:20 - Wall foul on Rose, Rose sinks both
1:13 - Wall missed jumper

Washington's leader in the clutch, final minutes of the game?

Marcin Gortat :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


Both Rose and Wall played roughly even, on the game and in the last 6 minutes as well. They both had 10 points in the 4th.

But these blind Rose homers are trying to act like Rose outplayed Wall and was some kind of clutch hero. The reality is that they still probably would have won even if Rose never came back into the game.

[Milbuck]

Both Rose and Wall played roughly even, on the game and in the last 6 minutes as well. They both had 10 points in the 4th.

But these blind Rose homers are trying to act like Rose outplayed Wall and was some kind of clutch hero. The reality is that they still probably would have won even if Rose never came back into the game.
No it isn't. We have no idea what would've happened if Rose had never come back in. You don't have to classify it as being a "clutch hero"..but the dude put up 8 points in the final minutes to grab Chicago the lead and run away with it. He took over when the game was tied and his team needed him. Wall had a nice overall game as well but he did kinda fade away in the final minutes. Acting like there's no reasonable basis whatsoever to saying Rose outplayed Wall, and that what you do in crunch time when the game is close doesn't matter...is just ludicrous.

[tontoz]

No it isn't. We have no idea what would've happened if Rose had never come back in.

The Bulls had a 10 point lead with 6:35 left. They are going to win that game the vast majority of the time no matter who their pg is, especially when the Wizards are struggling. They won 48 games last year with Augustine/Hinrich starting at pg.

Pierce/Nene/Gortat were a combined 12-35. Not their night. That is why Wall got more selfish late in the game, scoring 10 points in the last 6 minutes.

[Milbuck]

The Bulls had a 10 point lead with 6:35 left. They are going to win that game the vast majority of the time no matter who their pg is, especially when the Wizards are struggling. They won 48 games last year with Augustine/Hinrich starting at pg.

Pierce/Nene/Gortat were a combined 12-35. Not their night. That is why Wall got more selfish late in the game, scoring 10 points in the last 6 minutes.
Yes, because no team in the history of basketball has closed a 10 point deficit in 7 minutes before. Never happened....Except when the Wizards did it.

Again, no one knows what "would've happened if Rose had never come back in"...all we know is what did happen. And what did happen was Rose taking over the game with 8 points in the final 3 minutes, putting the game out of reach. And Wall going off for a few minutes, then cooling off in crunch time.

[tontoz]

Yes, because no team in the history of basketball has closed a 10 point deficit in 7 minutes before. Never happened....Except when the Wizards did it.

Again, no one knows what "would've happened if Rose had never come back in"...all we know is what did happen. And what did happen was Rose taking over the game with 8 points in the final 3 minutes, putting the game out of reach. And Wall going off for a few minutes, then cooling off in crunch time.


Do you have some type of reading impairment? Or do you not know what the word probably means?

Sure sometimes teams come back from 10 points down with 6:30 left to win but most of the time they don't. That is a fact and it is especially true when a good veteran team has the lead.

What actually happened is that Rose came into the game with the Bulls up 10 and they held on to win. If it wasnt for Rose's missed shots/turnovers the Wizards probably don't come back to take a 1 pt lead.

[Milbuck]

Do you have some type of reading impairment? Or do you not know what the word probably means?

Sure sometimes teams come back from 10 points down with 6:30 left to win but most of the time they don't. That is a fact and it is especially true when a good veteran team has the lead.

What actually happened is that Rose came into the game with the Bulls up 10 and they held on to win. If it wasnt for Rose's missed shots/turnovers the Wizards probably don't come back to take a 1 pt lead.
Forget your "probably" and hypothetical scenarios. The Wizards came back and got the lead, and they could've done the same whether Rose was in or out. Either way there was zero excuse for them losing that game. The reason they lost was Rose taking over in the final minutes and Wall fading. Both players had stretches of mistakes as well as stretches of brilliance but Wall's mistakes and Rose's brilliance coincided, and at a critical part of the game.

[tontoz]

Forget your "probably" and hypothetical scenarios. The Wizards came back and got the lead. There was zero excuse for them losing that game. The reason they lost was Rose taking over in the final minutes and Wall fading. Both players had stretches of mistakes as well as stretches of brilliance but Wall's mistakes and Rose's brilliance coincided at a critical part of the game.

So there is zero excuse for the Wizards losing a 1 point lead? What was the Bulls excuse for losing a 10 point lead after Rose came back into the game?

[Milbuck]

So there is zero excuse for the Wizards losing a 1 point lead? What was the Bulls excuse for losing a 10 point lead after Rose came back into the game?
There was no excuse, they just didn't execute, and at the same time Wall went off.

10 point lead turns into a 1 point Wizards lead. 1 point Wizards lead turns into an 8 point Bulls W. 11 point difference vs 9 point difference. Difference is, Rose took over at the end of the game when the game was tight and winding down. Wall took over and then promptly faded when his team needed him to close the deal.

If you want to act like the timing doesn't matter, that's you.

[beastee]

This conversation is still going on? Damn. Rose must be back since he is on every stans minds these days.

[tontoz]

There was no excuse, they just didn't execute, and at the same time Wall went off.

10 point lead turns into a 1 point Wizards lead. 1 point Wizards lead turns into an 8 point Bulls W. 11 point difference vs 9 point difference. Difference is, Rose took over at the end of the game when the game was tight and winding down. Wall took over and then promptly faded when his team needed him to close the deal.

If you want to act like the timing doesn't matter, that's you.


Specifically it was Rose who didn't execute on 4 possessions, with 2 missed shots and 2 turnovers, which allowed the Wizards to get back into the game. And it was Wall who capitalized on Rose's mistakes with 10 points in the last 6 minutes.

But the Bulls were doing just fine holding their lead before Rose, Mr Clutch, came into the game.

[Milbuck]

Specifically it was Rose who didn't execute on 4 possessions, with 2 missed shots and 2 turnovers, which allowed the Wizards to get back into the game. And it was Wall who capitalized on Rose's mistakes with 10 points in the last 6 minutes.

But the Bulls were doing just fine holding their lead before Rose, Mr Clutch, came into the game.
Right. And it was Wall who didn't execute on 4 possessions, with 2 bricks, a foul on Rose, a bad pass TO/steal by Rose..which allowed Rose to take over on the other end with 8 points in the final 3 minutes and the Bulls to turn a 1 point deficit into an 8 point W. I'll take Rose's mistakes in the middle of the Q and takeover at the end over Wall's takeover in the middle of the Q and mistakes/passiveness at the end, any day of the week. I'm out on this one, enjoy your assist-turnover ratio stats and moral victories.

[poido123]

Specifically it was Rose who didn't execute on 4 possessions, with 2 missed shots and 2 turnovers, which allowed the Wizards to get back into the game. And it was Wall who capitalized on Rose's mistakes with 10 points in the last 6 minutes.

But the Bulls were doing just fine holding their lead before Rose, Mr Clutch, came into the game.


You and Relinquish the same poster?


Still mad salty days later.


Rose owns Wiz souls, move on.

[navy]

This is why you dont judge players after single games.

[tontoz]

You and Relinquish the same poster?


Still mad salty days later.


Rose owns Wiz souls, move on.


I am not mad about the loss. The Bulls have more talent that the Wizards and other than Wall/Beal nobody had a good game.

It is just this revisionist history that is annoying. The Bulls had a 10 point lead at the 6:40 mark with Rose on the bench. He was on the bench almost half of the 4th and the Bulls increased their lead without him.

[themurph]

I don't know nothing about nothing...All I know is this:

Last four games before Sunday's matchup with the Pels...

Butler: 23.0 ppg, .508 FG%, 28/31 FT
Rose: 23.3 ppg, .544 FG%, 14/16 FT

^^^And they are only going to get better. Quite scary, really...

[Collie]

Don't forget healthy Lowry/Derozan. I feel they're up there with the best backcourts in the league, though Demar has been a bit down this year.