Who do you think did more for the franchise - Kobe or Dirk?

[Human Error]

I think Dirk hands down. He helped Dallas win their first ever championship as a clear cut first option and at later stage he took a paycut to make Dallas to be able to sign more quality players. Your thoughts?

[HOoopCityJones]

Lmao.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'll take the guy with 5 rings who is sticking with his team during a historically bad season

[Real14]

Op have the nerve to say "proving idiots wrong" too:coleman: oh yeaa.... Mods?

[imdaman99]

OP is a retarded troll. Makes a dumb thread a day.

[gts]

OP with another candidate for the stupid things said on ISH thread

[smoovegittar]

I think Dirk hands down. He helped Dallas win their first ever championship as a clear cut first option and at later stage he took a paycut to make Dallas to be able to sign more quality players. Your thoughts?
He might be your idol... and a great player - but comparing him to Kobe?

... have a drink.

[navy]

lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe fans aren't comprehending what's being asked here. The Lakers were still a top 3 franchise along with the Yankee, and Celtics in sports before Kobe, and will be after he's done. Dirk absolutely legitimized Dallas more than the Lakers EVER did or would need Kobe to do for them. Kobe is clearly better ball player, but Dirk did more for his franchise.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kobe fans aren't comprehending what's being asked here. The Lakers were still a top 3 franchise along with the Yankee, and Celtics in sports before Kobe, and will be after he's done. Dirk absolutely legitimized Dallas more than the Lakers EVER did or would need Kobe to do for them. Kobe is clearly better ball player, but Dirk did more for his franchise.
Hmm I see your point. an interesting question would be if Kobe played on the Mavericks his whole career, would he have done more for the franchise than Dirk?

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe fans aren't comprehending what's being asked here. The Lakers were still a top 3 franchise along with the Yankee, and Celtics in sports before Kobe, and will be after he's done. Dirk absolutely legitimized Dallas more than the Lakers EVER did or would need Kobe to do for them. Kobe is clearly better ball player, but Dirk did more for his franchise.


Duncan did more for the Spurs than Jordan to the Bulls.

How does that sound to you?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan did more for the Spurs than Jordan to the Bulls.

How does that sound to you?
But that would be stupidity. 6 rings from Mike v.s. 5 rings from Pop featuring D-Rob, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and in 2014 K. Leonard?

From complete near irrelevancy to a decade long dynasty? How does that make any sense? The Bulls were nothing before the 1984 draft. No MVPs. A few playoff appearances here and there.

The Spurs before Duncan were on the map at the very least with entertaining players like George Gervin, or MVPs like David Robinson, etc.

:facepalm

Hoopscityjones, you're easily the biggest butt hurt Kobe defenseman of all-time.


if Kobe played on the Mavericks his whole career, would he have done more for the franchise than Dirk?
If Dirk did it ... why would a top ten player ever not have made a bigger impact? The answer is obvious.

[HOoopCityJones]

But that would be stupidity. 6 rings from Mike v.s. 5 rings from Pop featuring D-Rob, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and in 2014 K. Leonard?

From complete near irrelevancy to a decade long dynasty? How does that make any sense? The Bulls were nothing before the 1984 draft. No MVPs. A few playoff appearances here and there.

The Spurs before Duncan were on the map at the very least with entertaining players like George Gervin, or MVPs like David Robinson, etc.

:facepalm

How many rings did they win with Iceman and Robinson?
The Bulls were no slouch before Jordan's era , Jerry Sloan was apart of one of the best backcourts in Bulls history , only eclipsed by Pippen and Jordan.

Either way you proved my point for me. When it comes to Jordan you always seem to have an excuse or exception.

There's no way you can say Dirk has meant more to his Team. Shit is purely laughable.

[SamuraiSWISH]

How many rings did they win with Iceman and Robinson?
The Bulls were no slouch before Jordan's era , Jerry Sloan was apart one of the best backcourts in Bulls history , only eclipsed by Pippen and Jordan.

Either way you proved my point for me. When it comes to Jordan you always seem to have an excuse or exception.
No, if you're strictly basing your retarded butt hurt argument on rings ...

Jordan gave Chicago 6x.
Duncan gave SA 4x ... 5x if you are delusional enough to think he was some superstar last season.

So how via any metric did Duncan do more for San Antonio than Mike did for Chicago? And like I said, beyond rings San Antonio had MVPs putting them on the map before Duncan.

The Bulls never had an MVP before Jordan's stretch of 5x of them.


There's no way you can say Dirk has meant more to his Team. Shit is purely laughable.
Dirk meant more to his FRANCHISE. He was their first ever MVP, and he delivered them their sole championship appearances, and ring.

The Lakers had 11x rings before Kobe came onto the scene. They had two different MVP players winning 6x total before Kobe was even on the team. 3x different MVPs before Kobe even won his in 2008.

Lakers had along with Boston the largest lineage of winning, and great players well before Kobe ever step foot on the floor in purple, and gold.

Dirk did more for the Mavericks than Kobe did for the Lakers. Doesn't mean he's the better player. He legitimized that franchise.

Jordan is the Bulls
Duncan legitimized the Spurs
Dirk is the Mavs
Kobe was a chain in a lineage of ELITE all-time great players
LeBron is the Cavs
Wade is the Heat

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lmao

5 titles, 7 finals. Billion dollar tv deal

Such a stupid thread.

[HOoopCityJones]

No, if you're strictly basing your retarded butt hurt argument on rings ...

Jordan gave Chicago 6x.
Duncan gave SA 4x ... 5x if you are delusional enough to think he was some superstar last season.

So how via any metric did Duncan do more for San Antonio than Mike did for Chicago? And like I said, beyond rings San Antonio had MVPs putting them on the map before Duncan.

The Bulls never had an MVP before Jordan's stretch of 5x of them.


Dirk meant more to his FRANCHISE. He was their first ever MVP, and he delivered them their sole championship appearances, and ring.

The Lakers had 11x rings before Kobe came onto the scene. They had two different MVP players winning 6x total before Kobe was even on the team. 3x different MVPs before Kobe even won his in 2008.

Lakers had along with Boston the largest lineage of winning, and great players well before Kobe ever step foot on the floor in purple, and gold.

Dirk did more for the Mavericks than Kobe did for the Lakers. Doesn't mean he's the better player. He legitimized that franchise.

Jordan is the Bulls
Duncan legitimized the Spurs
Dirk legitimized the Spurs
Kobe was a chain in a lineage of ELITE all-time great players
LeBron is the Cavs
Wade is the Heat

Lmao. You're the one cursing, insulting and I'm the one who's butthurt? :oldlol: Simple fact is I used a factually incorrect statement to counteract your own. Just off Brand alone Dirk isn't anywhere near Kobe in impact and value on and off the court. Just like Duncan isn't close to MJ.

[Artillery]

Dirk. Won a title for a franchise that was ringless. Also, he's 1-0 against Bryant in the playoffs and did it without any All-NBA teammates while Kobe's always played with the GOAT coach and a HOF frontcourt.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Swish so stupid.

What player has brought more titles to la than Kobe?

Kobe has won half as many rings as the entire franchise had before he arrived.

[J Shuttlesworth]

If Dirk did it ... why would a top ten player ever not have made a bigger impact? The answer is obvious.
Well there's no doubt that his resume would look a lot different if he wasn't playing for the Lakers. His 5 ring resume is one of the main reasons he's ranked among the greats... not to take away from his performance. If he was drafted to the Mavericks, he wouldn't have been playing with Shaq for his first 3 rings

[SamuraiSWISH]

People confusing off the court profitability, brand awareness, or even being the better bball player. As opposed to who was did more for heavy lifting for a franchises success, especially given the context of historical lack of success.

In LA, it's about the name on the front first. They are a desirable athlete destination, well before Kobe, and will be well after him. Has little to do with him. They were a monumental success way before him. Along with the Celtics they have BY FAR the largest lineage of great players bought, and paid for: Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, West, Baylor, Worthy, Gasol, Dwight, etc ...

And LMAO @ the Lakers TV contract being exclusively attributed to Kobe. It's one of the most beloved, bandwagoned, and followed franchise in all of sports with an ENORMOUS home state population / viewing audience.

[HOoopCityJones]

So now you're saying the Lakers get that TV deal regardless of Kobe? Oh wow.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Mikan brought 5x
Magic brought 5x
Shaq brought 3x

So, three more players in that franchise delivered more chips than Kobe.


Did I say that? I said it's not exclusive to Kobe. Can you comprehend?

So your answer to my question is no? Thank you.

[SCdac]

As much as I dislike the guy, Kobe has done more for LA if you ask me. Mavs, I'm not sure they're even the most popular pro sports team in their own city and it took Dirk 13 seasons into his career to finally get over the hump (and by that time players like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Webber - ie. his contemporaries - had largely simmered down or retired). Plenty of winning regular seasons but the win-% for Dirk tended to drop in the playoffs. I agree getting a team it's first championship is a big deal though, could tell Dirk was hungry... and credit to Mark Cuban for getting Dirk, Chandler, Kidd, Marion, Terry, etc, all on the same squad. Mavs perpetually went over the salary cap. In 2011 for instance they were 3rd in the league at 84.6 million payroll. Going back further, in 2006 they were 2nd in payroll at 97.8 million. Dirk was huge for the Mavs but Kobe is a tough comparison

[Artillery]

As much as I dislike the guy, Kobe has done more for LA if you ask me. Mavs, I'm not sure they're even the most popular pro sports team in their own city and it took Dirk 13 seasons into his career to finally get over the hump (and by that time players like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Webber - ie. his contemporaries - had largely simmered down or retired). Plenty of winning regular seasons but the win-% for Dirk tended to drop in the playoffs. I agree getting a team it's first championship is a big deal though, could tell Dirk was hungry... and credit to Mark Cuban for getting Dirk, Chandler, Kidd, Marion, Terry, etc, all on the same squad. Mavs perpetually went over the salary cap. In 2011 for instance they were 3rd in the league at 84.6 million payroll. Going back further, in 2006 they were 2nd in payroll at 97.8 million. Dirk was huge for the Mavs but Kobe is a tough comparison

Impact stats(RAPM for example) side with Dirk in this comparison. Seems more like Kobe was fortunate enough to play with the better teammates. Dirk, however, was the better player.

[SamuraiSWISH]

What player has brought more titles to la than Kobe?
Mikan brought 5x
Magic brought 5x
Shaq brought 3x

So, three more players in that franchise delivered more chips than Kobe.


So now you're saying the Lakers get that TV deal regardless of Kobe? Oh wow.
Did I say that? I said it's not exclusive to Kobe. Can you comprehend?

Let's put it this way, Kobe is top ten all-time. 5x rings, an MVP, and 2x Finals MVPs, yet he's not even considered definitively his franchise's greatest player. On any other franchise, it's easily him. This tells you point blank he didn't do as much for the Laker franchise as Dirk did for Dallas.

But you have a large contingency, and rightfully so that considers Magic the most iconic or definitive Laker player. And legit arguments could be made for Kareem, West, Baylor, and even Shaq or Wilt. I wouldn't, because Magic / Kobe / West / Mikan are the only in house drafted Lakers products.


So your answer to my question is no? Thank you.
No, I said very definitively that 3x players delivered the Lakers MORE championships as the team's franchise cornerstone.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Mikan brought 5x
Magic brought 5x
Shaq brought 3x

So, three more players in that franchise delivered more chips than Kobe.


Did I say that? I said it's not exclusive to Kobe. Can you comprehend?

Let's put it this way, Kobe is top ten all-time. 5x rings, an MVP, and 2x Finals MVPs, yet he's not even considered, definitively his franchise's greatest player. On any other franchise, it's easily him. This tells you point blank he didn't do as much for the Laker franchise as Dirk did for Dallas.

But you have a large contingency, and rightfully so that considers Magic the most iconic or definitive Lakers. And legit arguments could be made for Kareem, West, Baylor, and even Shaq or Wilt. I wouldn't, because Magic / Kobe / West / Mikan are the only in house drafted Lakers products.


No, I said very definitively that 3x players delivered the Lakers MORE championships as the team's franchise cornerstone.

3 & 5 are not larger numbers than 5, extra dumbass

[Top Gun]

I would say Dirk is more loved by the Mavs fans.

[ArbitraryWater]

3 & 5 are not larger numbers than 5, extra dumbass

Mikan brought 5
Shaq brought 3
Magic brought 3
Kareem brought 2
Kobe brought 2

[SamuraiSWISH]

3 & 5 are not larger numbers than 5, extra dumbass
Kobe was not the main piece for 3 of those championships, and any rational fan of the game will tell you that ...

The 2000 one definitively shouldn't be counted as Kobe being a franchise player. There isn't even an argument to be had there like some people would dare to make for the 2001, or 2002 seasons.

As unquestionably the best player on the team, and leader ... Kobe provided 3x Finals trips, and 2x championships.

Magic brought 5x rings and 8x Finals trips. Shaq brought 3x rings, and 4x Finals trips.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe has been the cornerstone of the lakers for 15 years has brought us 5 rings, nobody has brought us more.

Stop being an idiot

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe cornerstone over SHAQUILLE O NEAL :roll: :roll: :roll:

Kobe was the 2nd guy, like Magic in 1980, like Kareem in 1985....

[Cold soul]

OP is a retarded dumb troll. Kobe by far how is this even a question.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Delusional Kobe stans running wild in here. Hoopscityjones, and Mark Madsen being the primary culprits.

[Artillery]

Kobe has been the cornerstone of the lakers for 15 years has brought us 5 rings, nobody has brought us more.

Stop being an idiot

Won the majority of his titles as a sidekick.

[HOoopCityJones]

I wont get in to comparing Lakers since it's a toss up between Kareem , Magic and Kobe , but Dirk doesn't mean more to the Mavs than Kobe to the Lakers. No ****ing way.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Won the majority of his titles as a sidekick.
Seriously ...


I wont get in to comparing Lakers since it's a toss up between Kareem , Magic and Kobe , but Dirk doesn't mean more to the Mavs than Kobe to the Lakers. No ****ing way.
Dirk is definitively the franchise's greatest player. Thus he did more for THAT franchise. How do you not get this concept? He brought them their only rings, and Finals appearances.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe was not the main piece for 3 of those championships, and any rational fan of the game will tell you that ...

The 2000 one definitively shouldn't be counted as Kobe being a franchise player. There isn't even an argument to be had there like some people would dare to make for the 2001, or 2002 seasons.

As unquestionably the best player on the team, and leader ... Kobe provided 3x Finals trips, and 2x championships.

Magic brought 5x rings and 8x Finals trips. Shaq brought 3x rings, and 4x Finals trips.

Oh so magic doesn't get discredited for not winning FMVP every time but Kobe does. So Kobe doesn't get credit as bringing those titles to la, seeing as Shaq was racking up the rings with la while he had two other all star guards on his team in jones and van Exel

Cool, typical Kobe convo on ISH

[HOoopCityJones]

Won the majority of his titles as a sidekick.

Yet still won more rings than the first option. :oldlol:

[SCdac]

I would say Dirk is more loved by the Mavs fans.

lol it's tough to say who loves their fans more. I mean, Kobe fanatics are on another level. And it ain't unwarranted totally. Even Kobe's career post-2003... two championships and an MVP is pretty impressive.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Why are you changing the question to who was the cornerstone and not who did more for the franchise?

Kobe hater stay on their straw men arguments

[SamuraiSWISH]

What's so hard to understand about this ...

Kobe's won more. Kobe's accomplished more. Kobe's the better basketball player. But Dirk provided more success for his team's franchise in historical context than Kobe.

The Lakers were a massive successful franchise before Kobe got there. Hell, that's why he manipulated his way in the draft to LA. The Mavericks were an embarrassment for a long time.

[HOoopCityJones]

What's so hard to understand about this ...

Kobe's won more. Kobe's accomplished more. Kobe's the better basketball player. But Dirk provided more success for his team's franchise in historical context than Kobe.

The Lakers were a massive successful franchise before Kobe got there. Hell, that's why he manipulated his way in the draft to LA. The Mavericks were an embarrassment for a long time.

:biggums:
Bruh, how does that even make sense?

You better edit that shit, I'm not saying change the opinion , but Jesus if this doesn't make you sound batshit insane.

[Real14]

SamuraiPissed is sure acting mad salty and stretching it too far in this thread.:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

The Lakers have won 16 championships, the top 10 all-time list is filled with FIVE Lakers...

They've had George Mikan to start out the first dynasty, they had Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol.....

The Mavericks have DIRK NOWITZKI. They were one of the worst teams of the 1990's, Dirk Nowitzki came around and implemented a winning tradition. The 2nd longest streak of 50+ win seasons EVER (11, cut short by the lockout season).

How has Dirk NOT meant more to the Mavericks than Kobe to the Lakers?

Why is this so hard to admit?

hoopcityjones & mark madsen looking ignorant and stupid as always.

[Artillery]

hoopcityjones & mark madsen once again looking as ignorant and stupid as always.

They're both in the room temperature IQ club. Among the worst posters on this site.

[HOoopCityJones]

The Lakers have won 16 championships, the top 10 all-time list is filled with FIVE Lakers...

They've had George Mikan to start out the first dynasty, they had Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol.....

The Mavericks have DIRK NOWITZKI. They were one of the worst teams of the 1990's, Dirk Nowitzki came around and implemented a winning tradition. The 2nd longest streak of 50+ win seasons EVER (11, cut short by the lockout season).

How has Dirk NOT meant more to the Mavericks than Kobe to the Lakers?

Why is this so hard to admit?

hoopcityjones & mark madsen looking ignorant and stupid as always.

If this topic was "Who's championship meant more to the franchise" Then i'd totally agree with this assessment. But thats not whats being discussed here.

OP said who meant more to their franchise as a player and it's not ****ing Dirk, Lmao. Without Kobe, Lakers don't win 5 in ten years.

It's that simple.

[SugarHill]

What's so hard to understand about this ...

Kobe's won more. Kobe's accomplished more. Kobe's the better basketball player. But Dirk provided more success for his team's franchise in historical context than Kobe.

The Lakers were a massive successful franchise before Kobe got there. Hell, that's why he manipulated his way in the draft to LA. The Mavericks were an embarrassment for a long time.

Just like making the argument that LeBron did more for the Cavs than Kobe did for the Lakers, without a single championship. Take Kobe out of the Lakers equation. What are you left with? Still the most legendary franchise in NBA history. Take Dirk out from the Mavs. What is there?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just like making the argument that LeBron did more for the Cavs than Kobe did for the Lakers, without a single championship. Take Kobe out of the Lakers equation. What are you left with? Still the most legendary franchise in NBA history. Take Dirk out from the Mavs. What is there?
That's my point.

LeBron is the Cavs
Dirk is the Mavs
Jordan is the Bulls

The Lakers w/o Kobe? Even excluding the Shaq led championship rings?

11x championships
6x MVPs

Magic
Kareem
Wilt
The Logo
Baylor

[HOoopCityJones]

Just like making the argument that LeBron did more for the Cavs than Kobe did for the Lakers, without a single championship. Take Kobe out of the Lakers equation. What are you left with? Still the most legendary franchise in NBA history. Take Dirk out from the Mavs. What is there?

Take Kobe out and they'd been irrelevant the last twenty seasons. Shaq would've still been losing with Nick and Eddie and only won his first if he still gets traded to the Heat to play with Dwade.

[SugarHill]

That's my point.

LeBron is the Cavs
Dirk is the Mavs
Jordan is the Bulls

The Lakers w/o Kobe? Even excluding the Shaq led championship rings?

11x championships
6x MVPs

Magic
Kareem
Wilt
The Logo
Baylor

Exactly.

[HOoopCityJones]

You guys keep changing the goal post it's hilarious.

Read the OP.

"Who do you think did more for the franchise - Kobe or Dirk?"

Kobe: 5

Dirk: 1

It's obviously Kobe. :biggums:

[SugarHill]

Take Kobe out and they'd been irrelevant the last twenty seasons. Shaq would've still been losing with Nick and Eddie and only won his first if he still gets traded to the Heat to play with Dwade.

Or they make moves and acquire player x and Kobe does nothing in franchise y. :confusedshrug:

[HOoopCityJones]

Or they make moves and acquire player x and Kobe does nothing in franchise y. :confusedshrug:

Like I said read the OP.

If this is about what single Championship meant more to the franchise , then it's obviously Dirk's. That's not what the question is though.

Who did MORE.

How the hell is one considered more than Five? Only on ISH.

Here comes the Shaq shade...

[SugarHill]

Like I said read the OP.

If this is about what single Championship meant more to the franchise , then it's obviously Dirk's. That's not what the question is though.

Who did MORE.

How the hell is one considered more than Five? Only on ISH.

Here comes the Shaq shade...

Vince Carter did more for the Raptors than Kobe did for the Lakers. No championships.

[HOoopCityJones]

Vince Carter did more for the Raptors than Kobe did for the Lakers. No championships.

....:sleeping

Make that thread right now moe, see how many people agree with you.

[SugarHill]

....:sleeping

Make that thread right now moe, see how many people agree with you.

I think it might be arguable. Without Vince, Raptors might not even be in Toronto right now.

[HOoopCityJones]

I think it might be arguable. Without Vince, Raptors might not even be in Toronto right now.

Again you don't see how you guys change the criteria.

We've gone from discussing who has done more for their franchise.

To who made their franchise relevant.

It's factually incorrect no matter how you slice it. You guys better ask OP to rename the title to save face. :roll:


Seriously though you have no argument, you're just saying anything at this point.

Vince didn't do anything for the Raptors outside of entertainment and exposure. If thats what we're discussing , make a new thread about it and we'll discuss it there , because it's always something different when it comes to Kobe.

[T_L_P]

But that would be stupidity. 6 rings from Mike v.s. 5 rings from Pop featuring D-Rob, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and in 2014 K. Leonard?


Obviously I'm not gonna argue Tim > Jordan, or say that Tim did more for his franchise than Jordan did for is, but the wording of your post clearly shows your agenda.

If it's Pop -- who wasn't being called an all time great coach until his 3rd ring (go look at the GM surveys from the early 2000s to see how Pop was rated) -- featuring Tim, surely it's Phil featuring Mike?

Pop before Duncan had a .500 record. When Duncan was at his worst, 09-11, Pop crashed out the Playoffs (1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss). Mike before Phil? Could barely win a Playoff game. When Jordan retired for getting his father murdered? Went to a game 7 in the ECSF, then won another 5 rings.

It was Jordan just like it was Duncan. Just like it was Shaq then Kobe.

[SCdac]

think it'll come down to "Kobe did everything with the help of teammates, Dirk did everything alone", which is a shortsighted way of looking at it imo. Both Lakers and Mavs had great or weak TEAMS at certain points in time. Both Lakers and Mavs have missed the playoffs. Ultimately, taking Kobe off the Lakers I feel is a bigger negative to their franchise, regardless of their storied history dating back decades (Mav's franchise is younger, less history). What if Durant wins his first Finals MVP and championship this season, is he then considered "more important" to the Thunder than Kobe or Dirk for their teams, seeing that it's only their 7th season as a new franchise and would be their first championship?

[HOoopCityJones]

think it'll come down to "Kobe did everything with the help of teammates, Dirk did everything alone", which is a shortsighted way of looking at it imo. Both Lakers and Mavs had great or weak TEAMS at certain points in time. Both Lakers and Mavs have missed the playoffs. Ultimately, taking Kobe off the Lakers I feel is a bigger negative to their franchise, regardless of their storied history dating back decades (Mav's franchise is younger, less history). What if Durant wins his first Finals MVP and championship this season, is he then considered "more important" to the Thunder than Kobe or Dirk for their teams, seeing that it's only their 7th season as a new franchise and would be their first championship?


Can't wait to hear this.

[Rooster]

Obviously I'm not gonna argue Tim > Jordan, or say that Tim did more for his franchise than Jordan did for is, but the wording of your post clearly shows your agenda.

If it's Pop -- who wasn't being called an all time great coach until his 3rd ring (go look at the GM surveys from the early 2000s to see how Pop was rated) -- featuring Tim, surely it's Phil featuring Mike?

Pop before Duncan had a .500 record. When Duncan was at his worst, 09-11, Pop crashed out the Playoffs (1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss). Mike before Phil? Could barely win a Playoff game. When Jordan retired for getting his father murdered? Went to a game 7 in the ECSF, then won another 5 rings.

It was Jordan just like it was Duncan. Just like it was Shaq then Kobe.

Before the Admiral got injured, Spurs average 56 wins and Duncan came along. They went to WCF but it was clear they need another great player to finally put them to the top. And that was Duncan.

[T_L_P]

Before the Admiral got injured, Spurs average 56 wins and Duncan came along. They went to WCF but it was clear they need another great player to finally put them to the top. And that was Duncan.

Agreed. And I'm not saying Duncan's the Spurs or anything like that. I'm just saying it's clear that he's the main reason for our franchise's success. He's the freaking franchise player we built all those teams around.

Pop before Duncan was a .500 coach. He almost got fired in 99 because he was so unoriginal. He wasn't being called the best coach in the league in the early 2000s like Duncan was (as a player). The only time the Spurs lost in the first round before 09 with Duncan was when he missed the Playoffs (and we lost to a very mediocre Phoenix team). When Duncan was at his worst, Pop was getting bounced out of the Playoffs left and right.

It's Duncan featuring Pop, Manu, Parker, etc. Not the other way 'round. Unless it's also Phil featuring Jordan, Pippen Kobe, Shaq, Pau, or Doc featuring Garnett, Piece, Rondo, et al. :confusedshrug:

[navy]

He almost got fired in 99 because he was so unoriginal.
Pretty sure Pop was the one who made himself head coach.

[T_L_P]

Pretty sure Pop was the one who made himself head coach.

He was. And he almost got fired, if not for Avery taking the reigns (being our unquestioned leader and motivator) and Duncan/Robinson stepping up their games even further.

[Milbuck]

He was. And he almost got fired, if not for Avery taking the reigns (being our unquestioned leader and motivator) and Duncan/Robinson stepping up their games even further.
What does Pop almost getting fired have to do with his coaching ability? Scrub coaches get hired all the time, and quality coaches get fired all the time.

[T_L_P]

What does Pop almost getting fired have to do with his coaching ability? Scrub coaches get hired all the time, and quality coaches get fired all the time.

Couldn't co-ordinate off-ball movement for shit, couldn't get the guards to funnel their men into Robinson or Duncan properly, implored one of the most vanilla offensive systems in the league, just because had a couple of stars.

Pop grew into the role. He had the two best stars any coach could ask for to help him do that, who played both ends of the floor.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kobe Bryant without question. LOL at this thread.

are you sure?

The Lakers are iconic and have been since Day 1.

They were winning rings long before anybody on this board was watching hoops. Logo had them in the Finals 9 times all through the 60s. They had the very first superstar, the very first Big 3... they had a decade of Showtime.

There's reasons Jack Nicholson has had front row seats since the '70s and it ain't the late-comer Clippers.
The whole entire Hollywood panoply of stars was seating bleachers when Chamberlain was dishing it to Gail Goodrich and setting rebound records with Happy Hairston that won't ever get touched and more than anything else that's ever happened in basketball, that '72 season made the NBA a national sport. It was a perfect storm of movie stars, amazing talents, and a non-stop terrific competition with NYC.

The Mavs were a literal laughingstock for years. Way back in like '83 and '84 they had a run with Mark Aguirre and young Derek Harper and Blackman.... like they were getting anywhere NEAR Sixers/LAKERS/Celtics level :lol..... but that was it. They played to empty seats through a lot of the '90s like 19th of 27 teams and worse...... lots of times Reunion Arena looked like a desert.

When Dirk showed up they sailed up to 3rd or 4th in the League in attendence and stay right up there.... every year he's been there.

I'm going with Dirk on this one.

He's not better than Kobe and never was. But he did more for Dallas Hoops than Bryant has done for LA.

[Milbuck]

Couldn't co-ordinate off-ball movement for shit, couldn't get the guards to funnel their men into Robinson or Duncan properly, implored one of the most vanilla offensive systems in the league, just because had a couple of stars.

Pop grew into the role. He had the two best stars any coach could ask for to help him do that, who played both ends of the floor.
He didn't grow into the role, he adapted to what he had. Of course he's gonna run nearly everything through Duncan and Robinson, and then primarily through Duncan during his peak. It's just smart basketball. What would be the point of running the current schemes in the late 90s and early 2000s when 1) it's a different defensive era, and 2) you have a 2-headed monster in the paint? As the roster personnel changed, as Duncan was coming down, as Parker/Manu/etc were developing, and as the rules changed and the league was gravitating towards a different style of play, Pop adapted to it.

[JellyBean]

Really? I got Kobe.

[NZStreetBaller]

Kobe for sure. I give mark cuban more credit for the championship then dirk.

[jstern]

It depends on how you view this. Being in LA, as opposed to Charlotte has done a lot more for Kobe than he would have in a lower market. He got to play with Shaq and Pau, on great teams that let him win championships. He's been to the Finals 7 times and has only won Finals MVP twice, that's how good those teams were. Even while shooting just 41%.

While Dirk has brought Dallas their 1st championship while being clutch AF. Stepping up. So in that sense, Dirk wins.

But in terms of money, Kobe has a very stylish game, similar looking to Michael Jordan's. Very profitable. So he wins there.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kobe for sure. I give mark cuban more credit for the championship then dirk.

if that's the case, the Lakers organization was a shambles and Kobe's career got hammered for it. right?

What you're saying is, organizations are more important than players