Top 10 players all-time to start a franchise?

[Kvnzhangyay]

Saw this on another forum, really interested in the difference in opinions

In today's league

Here's mine, I feel like an elite big is far more valuable than wings nowadays

1. kareem
2. wilt
3. jordan
4. shaq
5. hakeem
6. russell
7. lebron
8. magic
9. bird
10. d-rob

[DaRkJaWs]

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
MJ
Magic
Hakeem
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
11. Dr J

But this is not my top 10 list. Close, but not quite.

[Dresta]

Why pick people like Lebron and Shaq who will probably leave your franchise floundering in the dust in their search for better pastures?

[DaRkJaWs]

Why pick people like Lebron and Shaq who will probably leave your franchise floundering in the dust in their search for better pastures?
With the right crew shaq is a top 10 worthy draft pick. But he is typically overrated, especially wrt his individual dominance, by a bunch of wannabe alphas who like to pounce on ppl they consider to be *******. So I understand your comment. Lebron had enough individual dominance to be in the top 10, and his play alone does impact the flow of the game.

[DaRkJaWs]

Lol I say that but forgot to include shaq. Original comment edited.

[pauk]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
(if they could be that good/productive in the modern era)

3. Michael Jordan
4. LeBron James
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Magic Johnson
8. Larry Bird
9. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
10. David Robinson

[triangleoffense]

lol @ anyone who doesn't have Jordan #1

[L8krH8tr]

1. Shaq
2. Kareem
3. Jordan

thats about it for me

[T_L_P]

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Kevin Garnett
Magic Johnson
LeBron James
Moses Malone

Then Kobe and Bird.

D-Rob would be there if he really cared about basketball, and if he developed a real post game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

With the right crew shaq is a top 10 worthy draft pick. But he is typically overrated, especially wrt his individual dominance, by a bunch of wannabe alphas who like to pounce on ppl they consider to be *******. So I understand your comment. Lebron had enough individual dominance to be in the top 10, and his play alone does impact the flow of the game.

By "right crew" do you mean a top 10 goat or the 3rd goat shooting guard?

Because those are so easy to find..

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[The Red Viper]

In no order,

1. Michael Jordan.
2. Magic Johnson.
3. Larry Bird.
4. LeBron James.
5. Tim Duncan.
6. Wilt Chamberlain.
7. Bill Russell.
8. Shaquille O'Neal.
9. Hakeem Olajuwon.
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Ill take Duncan and Kobe over most of these guys people are listing. Both never bailed on their teams, didnt need multiple all stars to win rings, won with multiple different supporting cast.

Both stay in the league longer than Bird, both get more done in the post season and stayed loyal to their team than Wilt, both won the same amount with way less help than magic

Shaq switched teams multiple times, was swept 6 times, never did much in the post season without Kobe, won his last ring with probably the best playoff version of the 3rd goat shooting guard

Lebron will bail when faced with adversity, has bailed on b2b 60+ win teams and a team with 4 straight finals appearances. Hasn't done much without multiple all stars on his teams, wants to hand pick the team etc.

[gcvbcat]

Duncan
Magic
Bird
D Rob
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Drexler
Miller
Ewing

[WillC]

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Shaquille O'Neal
03 - LeBron James
04 - Magic Johnson
05 - Larry Bird
06 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
07 - Hakeem Olajuwon
08 - Tim Duncan
09 - Kevin Garnett
10 - David Robinson

Honorable mention: Kevin Durant and Kobe Bryant

[Dresta]

Ill take Duncan and Kobe over most of these guys people are listing. Both never bailed on their teams, didnt need multiple all stars to win rings, won with multiple different supporting cast.

Both stay in the league longer than Bird, both get more done in the post season and stayed loyal to their team than Wilt, both won the same amount with way less help than magic

Shaq switched teams multiple times, was swept 6 times, never did much in the post season without Kobe, won his last ring with probably the best playoff version of the 3rd goat shooting guard

Lebron will bail when faced with adversity, has bailed on b2b 60+ win teams and a team with 4 straight finals appearances. Hasn't done much without multiple all stars on his teams, wants to hand pick the team etc.
Exactly. Don't know why guys on here would start their franchise with players known for leaving teams, especially their first team.

[STATUTORY]

Shaq, Lebron, Garnett, Duncan

SMH

thread had potential but garbage posts

[tpols]

Mj
Magic
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

[the mesiah]

1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Bird
4.Lew
5.Wilt
6.Duncan
7.kobe
8.Shaq
9.Lebron
10.Dr J

[bizil]

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Bron
Hakeem
Duncan

HM- KG (7 footer who could defend big swingman all the way to centers. Freak athlete with point forwards skills BUT YET led in the NBA in rebounds per game multiple years. Davis is taking the L by storm with this kind of skillset.)

[Milbuck]

MJ
Kareem
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Magic
Kobe
Bird
KG

Didn't include Wilt/Russell. Barely seen any footage of them outside of CavsFTW's mixes.

[bizil]

MJ
Kareem
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Magic
Kobe
Bird
KG

Didn't include Wilt/Russell. Barely seen any footage of them outside of CavsFTW's mixes.

Good list! If I'm going off players I've seen while they ACTUALLY PLAYED in the L, that would be my exact list.

[Milbuck]

Good list! If I'm going off players I've seen while they ACTUALLY PLAYED in the L, that would be my exact list.
Yeah I just saw no point in putting them on there, not to say they weren't ATGs because they obviously are, but it would just be me bullshitting and putting them on there for the sake of putting them on there and the specific ranking wouldn't mean much.

Also I went by who would be the easiest to build around for a decade and beyond..some guys on the list have a higher ceiling team that can be built than guys higher than them on the list, but it might take more front office creativity and favorable circumstances for them..example being Duncan/Shaq.

[fpliii]

Wilt, Russell and Oscar are tough to evaluate. They may very well be in my top 10 if I was alive to watch them, but there isn't enough tape out there for me to evaluate them properly. Thanks to CavsFTW's mixes, coupled with the reading I've done, I feel comfortable considering them all-time talents (and potentially among the GOATs) but I know I'll never be able to properly place them (I'll leave that to guys who watched them live).

Fortunately there's a ton out there of Kareem (40-50 or so games in his prime). I think he's the first guy we (meaning those who weren't fortunate enough to watch these guys live) can go back and watch, and get a complete picture of how good he was and how he played.

[Cold soul]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Lebron
9. Bird
10. Dr J

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

KAJ
MJ
Bird
Hakeem
KG
Timmy
Kobe
Shaq (would be top 3 but this nikka aint loyal)
Magic
Dirk

[TheMan]

Only including players I saw

1 Air
2 Magic
3 Diesel
4 Big Fundamental
5 Legend
6 Dream
7 King
8 KG
9 Mamba
10 Admiral

[DaRkJaWs]

Laughing my ass off at the retards in this thread leaving the most dominant, skilled all around player in wilt chamberlain off the list. These are the types of idiots that pretend that every post jlauber writes is hyperbole or simply tldr. Go shot yourselves, kids. If you can't make a rough list based off historical statements made by players coaches and refs like those expressed in plutos book "tall tales", then you have no business making any sort of list that actually tells us anything.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Laughing my ass off at the retards in this thread leaving the most dominant, skilled all around player in wilt chamberlain off the list. These are the types of idiots that pretend that every post jlauber writes is hyperbole or simply tldr. Go shot yourselves, kids. If you can't make a rough list based off historical statements made by players coaches and refs like those expressed in plutos book "tall tales", then you have no business making any sort of list that actually tells us anything.

to be fair, I barely watched any footage of him, so I'm just going by the stuff I hear about him

[Milbuck]

Laughing my ass off at the retards in this thread leaving the most dominant, skilled all around player in wilt chamberlain off the list. These are the types of idiots that pretend that every post jlauber writes is hyperbole or simply tldr. Go shot yourselves, kids. If you can't make a rough list based off historical statements made by players coaches and refs like those expressed in plutos book "tall tales", then you have no business making any sort of list that actually tells us anything.
Re-read your post like 3 times, not one mention of George Mikan, the most dominant force in basketball history. Your opinion means nothing.

[StephHamann]

HM- KG (7 footer who could defend big swingman all the way to centers. Freak athlete with point forwards skills BUT YET led in the NBA in rebounds per game multiple years. Davis is taking the L by storm with this kind of skillset.)

Turned Minny into a powerhouse.....

:facepalm

[T_L_P]

Re-read your post like 3 times, not one mention of George Mikan, the most dominant force in basketball history. Your opinion means nothing.

100% agree. Poster above is a filthy casual, tbh.

[DaRkJaWs]

Oh look, it's one of the first retards in this thread to leave wilt off. What a dumbass

[T_L_P]

Oh look, it's one of the first retards in this thread to leave wilt off. What a dumbass

To be fair, the Playoffs was Wilt's version of Mikan's shot clock.

[Nastradamus]

Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

Oh look, it's one of the first retards in this thread to leave wilt off. What a dumbass

It always amazes me that so many put KAJ above Wilt in these GOAT discussions, and yet, a PRIME KAJ in his 10 years in the league from '69-70 thru 78-79, had considerably less team success than a PRIME Wilt. And was nowhere near as dominant individually.

As for ignoring Chamberlain altogether...

The man LED FOUR teams to 60+ win seasons, including TWO of 68-13 and 69-13. And he not only won TWO rings, he was an eyelash away from winning FOUR more, and another game seven from yet a FIFTH.

Would he blend in with teammates? Hell, no other GOAT candidate was asked to change his game as much as Wilt was. How about two straight seasons of 24-24-8 .683, and 24-24-9 .595? Yes, the third number is APG.

Defensively he is likely the 2nd greatest defensive player of all-time, and easily the greatest shot-blocker in the history of the game.

[rmt]

To start a franchise, I'd probably pick mostly big men:

1. KAJ
2. Wilt
3. Duncan
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. MJ
7. Russell
8. KG
9. DRob
10. Moses Malone

[Psileas]

To be fair, the Playoffs was Wilt's version of Mikan's shot clock.

Only, Wilt made them all but once to Mikan's once, and Wilt is among the GOAT playoff performers, while Mikan isn't even a top-300 shot clock performer...

[VengefulAngel]

To start a franchise, I'd probably pick mostly big men:

1. KAJ
2. Wilt
3. Duncan
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. MJ
7. Russell
8. KG
9. DRob
10. Moses Malone

This list is atrocious.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

LOL @ anyone takin Robinson over Dirk

[pauk]

lol @ anyone who doesn't have Jordan #1

Dude, if Oscar/Wilt could go around dropping 30-50 ppg, with 10-30 rpg, and 8-12 apg in any era wouldnt you want them instead? :D

[StephHamann]

KG over Wilt is a joke. Future neg

[pauk]

To start a franchise, I'd probably pick mostly big men:

1. KAJ
2. Wilt
3. Duncan
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. MJ
7. Russell
8. KG
9. DRob
10. Moses Malone

I see your criteria, but if you gona pick guys like that over Lebron/Bird/Magic then you might aswell remove MJ from your list or else its kindof contradictive, those 3 guys were just as and if not arguably more impactful upon the outcome of the game, but differently.... AND they were more "big-manish" than MJ... :P

[STATUTORY]

how can you seriously have Lebron on your list unless you are a masochist, we seen what this n99a done to TWO cities/franchises now.

[Milbuck]

Only, Wilt made them all but once to Mikan's once, and Wilt is among the GOAT playoff performers, while Mikan isn't even a top-300 shot clock performer...
Mikan is the Michael Jordan of dominant centers. Or simply the George Mikan of centers, to us basketball historians. Wilt was a great player but he wasn't Mikan.

[LAZERUSS]

Mikan is the Michael Jordan of dominant centers. Or simply the George Mikan of centers, to us basketball historians. Wilt was a great player but he wasn't Mikan.

Interesting. Mikan was outplayed in his one H2H with Bob Kurland. In fact since he had outplayed the only other great big man at the time, and had proven to be superior, Kurland decided there was nothing left to prove, and didn't pursue an professional basketball career.

Kurland...the GOAT.

:bowdown:

[Milbuck]

Interesting. Mikan was outplayed in his one H2H with Bob Kurland. In fact since he had outplayed the only other great big man at the time, and had proven to be superior, Kurland decided there was nothing left to prove, and didn't pursue an professional basketball career.

Kurland...the GOAT.

:bowdown:
Kurland was a great in his own right. Great players occasionally outplay other great players, as evidenced by this case but also in the case of Russell and Kareem outplaying Wilt in all their head to heads. Mikan is still Mikan.

[LAZERUSS]

Kurland was a great in his own right. Great players occasionally outplay other great players, as evidenced by this case but also in the case of Russell and Kareem outplaying Wilt in all their head to heads. Mikan is still Mikan.

True, Russell occasionally outplayed Wilt...maybe 20% of the time, and including the post-season. And a PEAK Kareem was outplayed by a 34 year old Wilt, way-past-his-prime, and playing on a surgically repaired knee...in their '71 WCF's. Then by virtually ALL accounts, a 35 year old Wilt outplayed a peak Kareem in their '72 WCF's. Of course, in their one H2H before Wilt shredded his knee, he absolutely smoked Kareem.

[rmt]

This list is atrocious.

Just as you are entitled to your opinion so am I. And I'd want to start my franchise with preferably a two way big man (MJ being the exception or should I say so expectional). Remember this is not a GOAT list or a who's the best list - it's a start a franchise with list and it's just plain easier to start with a (two-way) big man.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) MJ
2) LeBron
3) Wade
4) Kobe
5) D. Rose

6) Shaq
7) Garnett
8) Duncan
9) C. Paul
10) Hakeem

I'm basing my choices off peak play, longevity, playoff performance, winning gene and entertainment value.

[ArbitraryWater]

1) MJ
2) LeBron
3) Wade
4) Kobe
5) D. Rose

6) Shaq
7) Garnett
8) Duncan
9) C. Paul
10) Hakeem

I'm basing my choices off peak play, longevity, playoff performance, winning gene and entertainment value.

Never thought you would say such a retarded thing..


Just

http://footbasket.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/dt66pa.gif

[Marchesk]

1) MJ
2) LeBron
3) Wade
4) Kobe
5) D. Rose

6) Shaq
7) Garnett
8) Duncan
9) C. Paul
10) Hakeem

I'm basing my choices off peak play, longevity, playoff performance, winning gene and entertainment value.

http://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/0214_bill-russell-630x393.jpeg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Never thought you would say such a retarded thing..


Just

http://footbasket.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/dt66pa.gif
Care to elaborate on what has you so butt hurt? I'm basing exclusively my list from 1989 - Now.

[Marchesk]

lol @ anyone who doesn't have Jordan #1

A GOAT-level big can has as much or more impact than MJ. In any case, you need to put the right pieces around to win titles.

So the question becomes, which is easier? Surround Mike with the Pippens and Rodmans he needs, or surround Kareem/Wilt/Shaq etc?

My bias would be to say it's better to start off with a great big and put 3pt shooters and playmakers around them than it is to start off with a great shooting guard.

[ArbitraryWater]

Care to elaborate on what has you so butt hurt?

http://images.rapgenius.com/db2ffd7f78ad433df28699029cd7f770.500x271x11.gif

You have DERRICK ROSE... DERRICK ROSE, as 5th pick ALL-TIME, TO START YOUR FRANCHISE WITH.......

But thats just the start... its an all-around garbage list.

You have Shaq behind Wade, Rose :lol
Chris Paul is ahead of Hakeem Olajuwon :lol

I won't even talk about Kareem, Russell, Wilt, since you usually just do the guys you saw... but its bad enough.

Duncan, 15 years of 20+/10+/3 on 50% with GOAT caliber defense as one of the best leaders ever is behind Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, DERRICK ROSE :roll:

Just alot of guys getting shat on hard, here..

If you'd really value "peak, playoff performance, longevity" then Shaq is >>>> Wade, Rose... and even Kobe.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kurland was a great in his own right. Great players occasionally outplay other great players, as evidenced by this case but also in the case of Russell and Kareem outplaying Wilt in all their head to heads. Mikan is still Mikan.

You even know that Kurland never played in the NBA?

[Heavincent]

1) MJ
2) LeBron
3) Wade
4) Kobe
5) D. Rose

6) Shaq
7) Garnett
8) Duncan
9) C. Paul
10) Hakeem

I'm basing my choices off peak play, longevity, playoff performance, winning gene and entertainment value.

WTF dude

[Heavincent]

Duncan, 15 years of 20+/10+/3 on 50% with GOAT caliber defense as one of the best leaders ever is behind Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, DERRICK ROSE :roll:


Okay, lets stop acting like Kobe is in the same tier as Wade and Rose.

[kshutts1]

Basing my list on ease to build around and injury history only, as people "jumping ship" I'm not counting because I'd do more to keep them...

Also, not in order:

Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
KG
Duncan
Hakeem
MJ
Oscar
Bird

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay, lets stop acting like Kobe is in the same tier as Wade and Rose.

Yeah, no doubt.. Kobe/Timmy is closer.. alot.

The smiley was for Rose solely.

[Milbuck]

You even know that Kurland never played in the NBA?
You even know what obvious trolling is?

You're trying WAY too hard to "catch me". Surely I can't bother you this badly? :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

People missing the part where I said entertainment value. I was being generous even leaving boring Tim Duncan on my list. I should've put McGrady or Iverson in there.

[ArbitraryWater]

You even know what obvious trolling is?

You're trying WAY too hard to "catch me". Surely I can't bother you this badly? :oldlol:

Sure.. I was just assuming you'd prefer to mention the "outplaying" happened in the NCAA.

[Heavincent]

People missing the part where I said entertainment value. I was being generous even leaving boring Tim Duncan on my list. I should've put McGrady or Iverson in there.

Multiple titles aren't entertaining?

[ArbitraryWater]

People missing the part where I said entertainment value. I was being generous even leaving boring Tim Duncan on my list. I should've put McGrady or Iverson in there.

If you're using that as an excuse, you're obviously placing value where it doesn't belong... This isn't a diving contest.

And your criteria :roll: :roll: :roll:

Duncan beats Rose in peak play, longevity, playoff performance, winning gene....

Yet somehow Rose is placed above him due to the most meaningless selection "entertainment value" ? :roll:

dat entertainment value power

[Milbuck]

Sure.. I was just assuming you'd prefer to mention the "outplaying" happened in the NCAA.
:oldlol: The **** are you even talking about? Do you know what "obvious trolling" means?

[kshutts1]

1) MJ
2) LeBron
3) Wade
4) Kobe
5) D. Rose

6) Shaq
7) Garnett
8) Duncan
9) C. Paul
10) Hakeem

I'm basing my choices off peak play, longevity, playoff performance, winning gene and entertainment value.
I'm assuming those two are troll attempts. Please tell me they're troll attempts.

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol: The **** are you even talking about? Do you know what "obvious trolling" means?

All those emoticons and you're still not happy.. :(

[Milbuck]

All those emoticons and you're still not happy.. :(
Far from it, I'm amused. All these attempts to "expose" me and not one has landed. Nice try, nice effort :yaohappy:

[ArbitraryWater]

Far from it, I'm amused. All these attempts to "expose" me and not one has landed. Nice try, nice effort :yaohappy:

Its getting kind of sad when you yourself have to pride yourself with "winning arguments" when no one even talks about it... You're here again playing your winning, confident shtick... "you always try to come at me, BUT NO ONE HAS LANDED DOE!! IM UNTOUCHABLE"

:facepalm

Okay, carry on... need more emoticons.

[Milbuck]

Its getting kind of sad when you yourself have to pride yourself with "winning arguments" when no one even talks about it... You're here again playing your winning, confident shtick... "you always try to come at me, BUT NO ONE HAS LANDED DOE!! IM UNTOUCHABLE"

:facepalm

Okay, carry on... need more emoticons.
Didn't read. Keep responding.

[ArbitraryWater]

Didn't read. Keep responding.


This is all you have? the "didn't read" one?

okay.. you don't seem bothered at all.. but milbuck winning doe!!

[Milbuck]

This is all you have? the "didn't read" one?

okay.. you don't seem bothered at all.. but milbuck winning doe!!
Good. Another response please.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Multiple titles aren't entertaining?
If I was a GM I could've got the entertainment, non bore factor of Tim Duncan by drafting McGrady, Iverson, or D-Rose and still produced titles. I would surround them with better pieces to complete the puzzle.

If Hill didn't get hurt, McGrady wouldn't have had the bums Orlando surrounded with ... probably would've been battling it out with the Lakers in the Finals those seasons.

Ex: If McGrady, Iverson, Ray Allen, or VC were on the 2000 - 2002 Lakers in place of Kobe they would've got titles.

Hell 3rd year D-Wade took past his prime Shaq to the promise land, and that guy was a SHELL of what he was at his peak from '98 - 2002.