The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome

[BIZARRO]

Loving the Bulls right now. They are good, and have a chance to be REALLY good. But one of the things that can hurt them, other than injuries, is something I have long thought about, but have now coined as: THE KIRK HINRICH SYNDROME.

The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome is something that all coaches who coach Kirk Hinrich get afflicted by, including and especially Thibs in this case. It is where they fall in love with him and his work ethic/coach's son mentality/hustle at the complete expense of and with complete disregard at how inefficient and crazy his play is on the floor.

This syndrome allows Thibs to play him 27.7 minutes a game this season, though he hasn't shot 40% in any of the last 3 season. Down to an even lower 36.5% this year. Allows Thibs to play him 31 minutes in a recent game, and have him go 0-0 from the field. Or the game after watch him go 0-7 from the field, with a 0,1, and 2 statline. Or the fact that the Bulls other than him are playing VERY efficiently right now. His shooting perentage and inefficiency stick out like a sore thumb. Let's face it, Kirk though a nice guy, is way past it. And it wasn't too great to begin with.

But it is not even the stats, it's the style of play. He's just so haphazard out there in his manic intensity, it is impossible to create flow and let the team just FLOW when he plays. And get into a rhythm. And improve with any consistency. It is no coincidence that they are playing some of their best ball with him out and clogging the flow and disrupting the rhythm with his craziness.

It's always been amazing how smart coaches like Thibs have always been blind to him. It's the ultimate example of forest from the trees, as I feel they are too close with him at practice everyday and fall in love with his blue collar attitude.

Anyway, I can see him as spot relief at this point 10 minutes a game to come in and give some intensity when needed.

But the fact that the really great Aaron Brooks has avg. 20.3 minutes a game to 27.7 for the inefficient over the hill wildman Kirk this year is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.

But yet again, another example of....The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome.

Please Thibs, lose the illusion. 10-12 minutes a game tops. The Bulls will be much better for it.

[stalkerforlife]

Hinrich plays a lot because of his ability to defend the 1, 2, and sometimes the 3.

His offense is irrelevant.

[navy]

Kendrick Perkins and Udonis Haslem fit the bill. Although, Kirk isnt quite as bad as those two.

[BIZARRO]

Hinrich plays a lot because of his ability to defend the 1, 2, and sometimes the 3.

His offense is irrelevant.


That ain't what I'm saying. And he ain't even close to a Tony Allen, or even a Jimmy Butler on D for matter to justify 27.7 minutes a game. In fact, he's pretty slow at his age. Hell, I can find lots of hard working guys his size in the league who can defend as well as him and have no O. Doesn't mean I want them playing 27.7 minutes a game. For the Bulls?

And 27.7 a game? When Brooks is playing 20? No way, just no way.

No offense, and mediocre 33 year old slow defense in no way warrant 27.7 mpg on this Bulls team. Especially when a champ like Brooks plays 20.

Sorry, just no way. It totally holds them back with inefficient minutes.

[nnn123]

Is anyone here a fan of on/off stats? For what it's worth, Kirk is leading the team this year in on/off per 100 possessions (last I checked). I don't know if it's just a crappy stat, or maybe there is something to be said for Kirk coming into the game and stabilizing the perimeter defense? Especially in a league that is run by point guards?

[stalkerforlife]

That ain't what I'm saying. And he ain't even close to a Tony Allen, or even a Jimmy Butler on D for matter to justify 27.7 minutes a game. In fact, he's pretty slow at his age. Hell, I can find lots of hard working guys his size in the league who can defend as well as him and have no O. Doesn't mean I want them playing 27.7 minutes a game. For the Bulls?

And 27.7 a game? When Brooks is playing 20? No way, just no way.

No offense, and mediocre 33 year old slow defense in no way warrant 27.7 mpg on this Bulls team. Especially when a champ like Brooks plays 20.

Sorry, just no way. It totally holds them back with inefficient minutes.

You must be black.

[BIZARRO]

You must be black.

:applause: :cheers: That was good.

In seriousness I'm white, just going by what I see on the floor. The eye test tells me the Bulls are going to be much better, and would get into a much better rhythm, without him and his rhythm disrupting style of play. That's all.

[BIZARRO]

Is anyone here a fan of on/off stats? For what it's worth, Kirk is leading the team this year in on/off per 100 possessions (last I checked). I don't know if it's just a crappy stat, or maybe there is something to be said for Kirk coming into the game and stabilizing the perimeter defense? Especially in a league that is run by point guards?


I'm too busy looking at his 7.96 per with is 312th out of 341. :facepalm

Don't fall into the Kirk Hinrich Syndrome man. Fans do it too.

It's his style of play which is the big thing that will hurt a Bulls team that will eventually thrive on flow. He's like a square peg in a round hole on that team.
Which is fine, just not for 27.7 mpg. More like 10-12 mpg.

[Heavincent]

He shoots 38% from 3 and is a good defender. He probably gets a few more minutes per game than he should, but Thibs is defensive minded, so it kind of makes sense I guess. Oh, and Rose is in and out of the lineup, so somebody has to get those minutes.

Derek Fisher was a starter for most of his career, and he wasn't really any better than Hinrich is right now.

[BIZARRO]

He shoots 38% from 3 and is a good defender. He probably gets a few more minutes per game than he should, but Thibs is defensive minded, so it kind of makes sense I guess. Oh, and Rose is in and out of the lineup, so somebody has to get those minutes.

Derek Fisher was a starter for most of his career, and he wasn't really any better than Hinrich is right now.


Every player has their good and bad points. Hinrichs at this stage of his career bad outweighs the good. His 312th ranked per, 36.5 total fg%, and declining defense don't warrant 28 minutes per game in this Bulls team.

He doesn't get "a few" more minutes than he should. He gets a lot more minutes than he should for his inefficiency and crazy decisions and low shooting perectage.. It's this glossing over that is a symptom of The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome and allows for less efficient basketball.

Is anybody seeing my point about his manic style of play disrupting the flow of the team? Or can anybody justify how Brooks to this point has played 20.3 mpg compared to Hinrich's 27.7mpg?

The proof is in the pudding. They're playing better without him.

[Kvnzhangyay]

same case as beverley, or even perkins to an extent

[BIZARRO]

same case as beverley, or even perkins to an extent

Agreed.

[JohnMax]

But it is not even the stats, it's the style of play. He's just so haphazard out there in his manic intensity, it is impossible to create flow and let the team just FLOW when he plays. And get into a rhythm. And improve with any consistency. It is no coincidence that they are playing some of their best ball with him out and clogging the flow and disrupting the rhythm with his craziness.


You just described Russell Westbrook

[ralph_i_el]

Loving the Bulls right now. They are good, and have a chance to be REALLY good. But one of the things that can hurt them, other than injuries, is something I have long thought about, but have now coined as: THE KIRK HINRICH SYNDROME.

The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome is something that all coaches who coach Kirk Hinrich get afflicted by, including and especially Thibs in this case. It is where they fall in love with him and his work ethic/coach's son mentality/hustle at the complete expense of and with complete disregard at how inefficient and crazy his play is on the floor.

This syndrome allows Thibs to play him 27.7 minutes a game this season, though he hasn't shot 40% in any of the last 3 season. Down to an even lower 36.5% this year. Allows Thibs to play him 31 minutes in a recent game, and have him go 0-0 from the field. Or the game after watch him go 0-7 from the field, with a 0,1, and 2 statline. Or the fact that the Bulls other than him are playing VERY efficiently right now. His shooting perentage and inefficiency stick out like a sore thumb. Let's face it, Kirk though a nice guy, is way past it. And it wasn't too great to begin with.

But it is not even the stats, it's the style of play. He's just so haphazard out there in his manic intensity, it is impossible to create flow and let the team just FLOW when he plays. And get into a rhythm. And improve with any consistency. It is no coincidence that they are playing some of their best ball with him out and clogging the flow and disrupting the rhythm with his craziness.

It's always been amazing how smart coaches like Thibs have always been blind to him. It's the ultimate example of forest from the trees, as I feel they are too close with him at practice everyday and fall in love with his blue collar attitude.

Anyway, I can see him as spot relief at this point 10 minutes a game to come in and give some intensity when needed.

But the fact that the really great Aaron Brooks has avg. 20.3 minutes a game to 27.7 for the inefficient over the hill wildman Kirk this year is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.

But yet again, another example of....The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome.

Please Thibs, lose the illusion. 10-12 minutes a game tops. The Bulls will be much better for it.

Aaron Brooks is worse on D than Hinrich is on O

[tpols]

Aaron Brooks is worse on D than Hinrich is on O
This is true.

Drpms..

Brooks -2.9, Kirk 0

Orpms..

Brooks 1.7, Kirk -.5



I bet Thibs looks at defensive synergy stats and makes a reasonable conclusion.. Bulls are a defensive team first after all.

[dontgetchoked]

e'twaun moore is better than kirk at this point

[BIZARRO]

e'twaun moore is better than kirk at this point

Yes, Kirk at this point is pretty awful. But stats, while bad still don't tell the story of how haphazard and unorganized his style of play is.

A metaphor I can make is for all of you Chicago Bears fans out there regarding Jay "Hopefully he's gone" Cutler. He might throw TD's, but they are usually on short under passes where someone like Forte turns them into TD's, or on jump balls to his giant wideouts Marshall and Jeffrey. Again, lots of turnovers. But more than that, Cutler's lack of rhythm and balance lead to inefficient football and no flow. Hence, not great results. So he sometimes might put up stats, but they are a mirage to the disrupting nature of his game.

Hinrich has that manic, dibble around forever or oppositely shoot off balance without the dribble from who knows where game. There is no middle game. There is no flow, and the Bulls will be able to improve much easier in building from a more controlled flow.

Even with that said, there is still no way a slow 33 year guard who shoot 36.5% with a per of 7.6 should be playing 27.7mpg for these Bulls. Once again, the Kirk Hinrich Syndrome. Listen, you can tell me the sky is green, and try to make a valid argument, but arguing for Kirk Hinrich playing 27.7mpg for this team is ridiculous.

Then again, it was easy to tell Cutler was a loser after 1/2 a season (and I've wanted him gone since then), and folks in Chicago are still trying to talk him up after 6 seasons due to his arm strength, etc. That is the Jay Cutler Syndrome. His is for arm strength, and Hinrich's is for hard work/attitude. Which both mean hardly anything as neither have any flow to their game. Which hurts a team's progression to consistency and improvement.

[dunksby]

I'm too busy looking at his 7.96 per with is 312th out of 341. :facepalm

Don't fall into the Kirk Hinrich Syndrome man. Fans do it too.

It's his style of play which is the big thing that will hurt a Bulls team that will eventually thrive on flow. He's like a square peg in a round hole on that team.
Which is fine, just not for 27.7 mpg. More like 10-12 mpg.
Your argument sucks, you claim stats don't tell the story yet you bring up PER which is irrelevant for weighing defensive performance. When it comes to put a value on his defense you just claim he is not that good. Bulls have Rose and Butler on the perimeter already so I don't think Kirk's bad offense hurts Chicago as much as you make it to be.
All that said I'd say 25MPG is what I'd play Hinrich as this stage which is far from your 12MPG considering alternatives are Brooks and Moore.

[Undisputed]

By far my favorite thread of the year. Beautifully put, Bizarro. Words after my own heart.

[el gringos]

Hard to show your lack of understanding of 2 different sports in 1 nba message board thread but good work.

You against hinrich actually made sense until the whole "great Aaron brooks" part. Then someone tried to explain defensive reasons and you counter with there are countless guys his size and ability who give nothing on offense. - if he was as bad as you say? No there aren't a ton of 6-3 guys who can defend 2 or 3 positions but are terrible offensively in the nba.


There are quite a few teams that would play hinrich on their team. That is not the case for brooks. There prob isn't quite a few teams that would give brooks a job. You might not understand it or like it, but hinrich isn't playing because he is a "coaches son" type of guy

[The_Pharcyde]

Loving the Bulls right now. They are good, and have a chance to be REALLY good. But one of the things that can hurt them, other than injuries, is something I have long thought about, but have now coined as: THE KIRK HINRICH SYNDROME.

The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome is something that all coaches who coach Kirk Hinrich get afflicted by, including and especially Thibs in this case. It is where they fall in love with him and his work ethic/coach's son mentality/hustle at the complete expense of and with complete disregard at how inefficient and crazy his play is on the floor.

This syndrome allows Thibs to play him 27.7 minutes a game this season, though he hasn't shot 40% in any of the last 3 season. Down to an even lower 36.5% this year. Allows Thibs to play him 31 minutes in a recent game, and have him go 0-0 from the field. Or the game after watch him go 0-7 from the field, with a 0,1, and 2 statline. Or the fact that the Bulls other than him are playing VERY efficiently right now. His shooting perentage and inefficiency stick out like a sore thumb. Let's face it, Kirk though a nice guy, is way past it. And it wasn't too great to begin with.

But it is not even the stats, it's the style of play. He's just so haphazard out there in his manic intensity, it is impossible to create flow and let the team just FLOW when he plays. And get into a rhythm. And improve with any consistency. It is no coincidence that they are playing some of their best ball with him out and clogging the flow and disrupting the rhythm with his craziness.

It's always been amazing how smart coaches like Thibs have always been blind to him. It's the ultimate example of forest from the trees, as I feel they are too close with him at practice everyday and fall in love with his blue collar attitude.

Anyway, I can see him as spot relief at this point 10 minutes a game to come in and give some intensity when needed.

But the fact that the really great Aaron Brooks has avg. 20.3 minutes a game to 27.7 for the inefficient over the hill wildman Kirk this year is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.

But yet again, another example of....The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome.

Please Thibs, lose the illusion. 10-12 minutes a game tops. The Bulls will be much better for it.

Like thibs says you cant gauge kirk hinrich off the box score

and I trust thibs opinion more than a username on an average basketball forum

so yeah... hinrich is the man

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's a very good defender. Still to this day.

[Lebron23]

He's a very good defender. Still to this day.


This

He's like Ron Harper Circa 1996 to 2002.

[JohnMax]

Spurs offense flows smoother with Patty Mills

[Akhenaten]

OP is 100% correct, I don't even give a crap about the Bulls (Heat fan) but it's painfully obvious this guy has no business playing anywhere near 28 mins a game.

Thibs is a great coach in the same way Rex Ryan is a great coach, great defensive minds who are so entrenched in their philosophies that they can never truly excel (win ring/s).

[Milbuck]

Have a lot of Bulls fan friends, they'd agree with you 100% and so would I. Especially this..
It is where they fall in love with him and his work ethic/coach's son mentality/hustle at the complete expense of and with complete disregard at how inefficient and crazy his play is on the floor.
E'twuan Moore hasn't put up the numbers the last few games with more minutes, but he's at least looked like he belongs on an NBA court, doesn't play scared like Snell or Doug..hopefully he can give the team some quality minutes at the 2 going forward, reducing both Kirk and Jimmy's minutes. Jimmy needs some rest or it's gonna be Deng 2.0 with him getting overworked, and there is zero reason for Kirk to be approaching 28-30 mpg..

[Ronnie]

e'twaun moore is better than kirk at this point

Kirk is becoming complecent day by day , I think he's had it for us ; this season slump run for the captain . Kirk is growing older each year , his reflexes aren't in the same level at what he had started his career !

[BarberSchool]

Loving the Bulls right now. They are good, and have a chance to be REALLY good. But one of the things that can hurt them, other than injuries, is something I have long thought about, but have now coined as: THE KIRK HINRICH SYNDROME.

The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome is something that all coaches who coach Kirk Hinrich get afflicted by, including and especially Thibs in this case. It is where they fall in love with him and his work ethic/coach's son mentality/hustle at the complete expense of and with complete disregard at how inefficient and crazy his play is on the floor.

This syndrome allows Thibs to play him 27.7 minutes a game this season, though he hasn't shot 40% in any of the last 3 season. Down to an even lower 36.5% this year. Allows Thibs to play him 31 minutes in a recent game, and have him go 0-0 from the field. Or the game after watch him go 0-7 from the field, with a 0,1, and 2 statline. Or the fact that the Bulls other than him are playing VERY efficiently right now. His shooting perentage and inefficiency stick out like a sore thumb. Let's face it, Kirk though a nice guy, is way past it. And it wasn't too great to begin with.

But it is not even the stats, it's the style of play. He's just so haphazard out there in his manic intensity, it is impossible to create flow and let the team just FLOW when he plays. And get into a rhythm. And improve with any consistency. It is no coincidence that they are playing some of their best ball with him out and clogging the flow and disrupting the rhythm with his craziness.

It's always been amazing how smart coaches like Thibs have always been blind to him. It's the ultimate example of forest from the trees, as I feel they are too close with him at practice everyday and fall in love with his blue collar attitude.

Anyway, I can see him as spot relief at this point 10 minutes a game to come in and give some intensity when needed.

But the fact that the really great Aaron Brooks has avg. 20.3 minutes a game to 27.7 for the inefficient over the hill wildman Kirk this year is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.

But yet again, another example of....The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome.

Please Thibs, lose the illusion. 10-12 minutes a game tops. The Bulls will be much better for it.I understand your concern, bruh.

But Thibbs ain't that dude. Thibbs is a metrics guy, like Belichick. Thibbs don't play guys who don't win him games cause their skin matches his. Thibbs is a cutthroat general. A Mob boss. An ugly, emotionless pile of pure determination, who cares about shit else besides WINNING AT ALL TIMES>

Heinrich is a small, melanin deficient bruce bowen that doesn't purposefully sprain ankles. All he does is play really good defense (heinrich still actually does this), and shoot spot up 3's at a decent percentage. (bowen 39%, Heinrich 38%). Sh!t else.

CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS need guys to do those two things. Bookmarked.

[Clifton]

Only player I have ever seen shut down Wade one on one in his prime. He is the greatest secret to the Bulls improbable success all these years imo. Several fuys are more important but they get recognized.

[pegasus]

He does play too many minutes, especially in 4th quarters. He is not the same defender anymore and makes too many mistakes; commits stupid fouls, misses FT's, gets blocked when he shoots, etc. I wish we could trade him and Snell for a capable two-way guard to come off the bench.

[BIZARRO]

He does play too many minutes, especially in 4th quarters. He is not the same defender anymore and makes too many mistakes; commits stupid fouls, misses FT's, gets blocked when he shoots, etc. I wish we could trade him and Snell for a capable two-way guard to come off the bench.

Very well said.

Another inactive Hinrich. Another 27.7mpg without the craziness and haphazard, off the wall play. Another win. Shocker.

I have some friends in the Chicago sports media. Think I'm gonna keep putting this in their ear (though they have expressed the same thoughts to me), so someone can eventually relay to Thibs and put it in his ear. And I plan on having them relay it to him as The Kirk Hinrich Syndrome. :D

[stalkerforlife]

OP is racist.

[navy]

OP is racist.

I'm white

Definitely.

[stalkerforlife]

Definitely.

Clayton Bigsby.

[navy]

Clayton Bigsby.
Agreed.

[BIZARRO]

OP is racist.

Ha, that's the first time in my life I've ever been called racist. And it's for being called racist against my own race, as me and Kirk are both of the caucasian persuasion.

I love it. Only on ISH. :oldlol:

[BIZARRO]

Clayton Bigsby.

That was actually a funny post. :cheers: