Lebron went from the undisputed number 1 in the league, possible legitimate GOAT

[JohnMax]

to top 5 player.

[BigTicket]

And ?

Noone stays #1 forever.

[Dragic4Life]

Top 5 all time sure.

[livingby3's]

Top 5 is a bad thing now? Wish my team had a top 5 player

[Shep]

He has been the best player for 6 consecutive seasons and top 2 for the 3 seasons prior. His official rank for the 2014-15 season will come after the regular season and playoffs are complete, not after 30 games.

[jrong]

He has been the best player for 6 consecutive seasons and top 2 for the 3 seasons prior. His official rank for the 2014-15 season will come after the regular season and playoffs are complete, not after 30 games.

Lmao, no he hasn't. He's only been the clear-cut best in 2012 and 2013. Durant was easily the best in 2014. In 2011, factoring in regular season and playoffs (especially in light of egg he laid in the Finals), he wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade was flat-out better than him.

Kobe gets the nod in 2010, considering LeBron laid another egg against the Celtics that postseason. And it was a toss-up between him and Wade in 2009-- I'll give it to James for his team record and playoff run, but it should be said, none of the Heat starters besides Wade would have started for the Cavs that year and some of them wouldn't have cracked Cleveland's rotation.

So there's the last six years. Top 2, the three years before? Debatable. Chris Paul deserves consideration in 2008 along with James and Bryant, especially since James choked against the Celtics yet again that year. In 2007, pre-injury Wade was without a doubt the best player in the league. He was at 29/5/8 through 50 games, basically identical to his 2009 stats, compared to LeBron's 26/6/6. But, Wade did get hurt, so calling James top 2 along with Bryant is probably fair. And you think he was definitively top 2 in 2006? Are you serious? When Wade did what he did that year and Kobe dropped 35/5/5 and put up 81? Please.

GTFO with that stan propaganda.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron just caped off a 6-year run of being the league's best player... (only Kareem/Jordan have longer ones)

I'm fine with it being over.. had to happen at one point.

[plowking]

He has been the best player in basketball for the last 6 seasons straight... It isn't a big deal. At the moment there really isn't a clear cut best player, but as far as wanting one player, for one game if it came down to it... I'm sure most would pick Bron, so I guess that still makes him the best even now.

I don't think people realize he is putting up 25/8 at a 50% clip on a winning team, and people consider it a bad season. If Mike put that up after his first retirement, people would have considered it a good season, just to put things into perspective. I guess people are just accustomed to the greatness he produces on the court, or at least used to not even a season ago.

[STATUTORY]

He has been the best player in basketball for the last 6 seasons straight... It isn't a big deal. At the moment there really isn't a clear cut best player, but as far as wanting one player, for one game if it came down to it... I'm sure most would pick Bron, so I guess that still makes him the best even now.

I don't think people realize he is putting up 25/8 at a 50% clip on a winning team, and people consider it a bad season. If Mike put that up after his first retirement, people would have considered it a good season, just to put things into perspective. I guess people are just accustomed to the greatness he produces on the court, or at least used to not even a season ago.

Lebron is not even 30 and we comparing him to post retirement MJ already :roll: :roll:

dude gonna be shining his bald head square on the bench by the time he's 36

that's what happens when your game is predicated on athleticism and never develop repertoir of iso moves

[tpols]

Wait.. Are Bron stans actually saying he was the best in 2011?

:wtf:

[plowking]

Wait.. Are Bron stans actually saying he was the best in 2011?

:wtf:

He was. A major f*ck up over 5 games doesn't change that.

[HOoopCityJones]

Wait.. Are Bron stans actually saying he was the best in 2011?

:wtf:

Even worse , they're trying to pretend he was the best during Kobe's amazing run.

[HOoopCityJones]

He was. A major f*ck up over 5 games doesn't change that.

It does if it's not true. Wade was better in 2011.

[plowking]

Lebron is not even 30 and we comparing him to post retirement MJ already :roll: :roll:

dude gonna be shining his bald head square on the bench by the time he's 36

that's what happens when your game is predicated on athleticism and never develop repertoir of iso moves

Bron is 30, Jordan was 31 when he came back... What is the problem?

Don't Kobe fans love comparing seasons and the amount of stress on their bodies as well? :roll:
Well Bron sure has a lot more of that at the same age. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

He has been the best player in basketball for the last 6 seasons straight... It isn't a big deal. At the moment there really isn't a clear cut best player, but as far as wanting one player, for one game if it came down to it... I'm sure most would pick Bron, so I guess that still makes him the best even now.

I don't think people realize he is putting up 25/8 at a 50% clip on a winning team, and people consider it a bad season. If Mike put that up after his first retirement, people would have considered it a good season, just to put things into perspective. I guess people are just accustomed to the greatness he produces on the court, or at least used to not even a season ago.

This to consider... not just is it 6 years straight, but right now, KD's injury is putting this question on hold...

He could still make this his year. Who really has seperated himself from the pack? Is James Harden a better player than LeBron James?

LeBron is on the verge of being #1 in scoring and #5 in assists... while shooting 50%.

His peak is so much better than anyone else's, that talking about "decline" is true, but irrelevant in contrast to the current league, because as we can see, he's still there with anyone else... I mean, #2 in scoring and #6 in assists... No one has a clear argument right now.


He was. A major f*ck up over 5 games doesn't change that.


Gotta agree here too... He was the best 2 years prior and 3 years afterwards, does anyone really think he suddenly lost his ability and became a worse player? He ****ed up... choked badly.. but its more so the situation changing.

I dont have a problem with someone else that year, though... open between LBJ/Dirk, or even Wade/Dwight.

[plowking]

It does if it's not true. Wade was better in 2011.

I'm a Heat fan, and I guarantee I watched more games than you did that season of the Heat. And no, Wade wasn't better. Close, but no.

[DMAVS41]

Even worse , they're trying to pretend he was the best during Kobe's amazing run.

Lebron was better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010 though...

But Lebron absolutely was not the best player in 2011.

[STATUTORY]

Wait.. Are Bron stans actually saying he was the best in 2011?

:wtf:

:roll: lets' break down Bron's 6 year peak

2014 - dusted from the finals and outplayed by his counterpart on the opposing team and the best SF of the series Kawai Leonard
2013 - terrified to shoot the ball, plays hot potato in the 4th quarter, bailed out by Ray Allen
2012 - beats an inexperienced Durant team
2011 - legit CHOKES and HIDES from the mavs team so much that even wade
2010 - loses to a lower seeded team in a series that he was favored going in. Abandons city, team, family, friends in the offseason
2009 - same

greatest 6 year run of any top player in their prime :bowdown: :bowdown:

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebron was better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010 though...

But Lebron absolutely was not the best player in 2011.

He actually wasn't though. Unless you consider bouncing basketballs off of your toe better. Then yea, he was better, at choking.

[STATUTORY]

Lebron was better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010 though...

But Lebron absolutely was not the best player in 2011.
according to who? you? :roll: :roll:

[Papaya Petee]

Maybe..

13-14 Durant was 1A LeBron 1B
12-13 LeBron easily
11-12 LeBron easily
10-11 Wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade> LeBron
09-10 LeBron easily
08-09 1A 1B with Wade, Wades team was garbage but individually =,> LeBron
07-08 Kobe Easily then CP3
06-07 Kobe Easily
05-06 Wade and Kobe > LeBron

He has an argument for being the best player for about 6 seasons, but there's legitimate arguments for him being the best for about 3.

[K Xerxes]

Even worse , they're trying to pretend he was the best during Kobe's amazing run.

He was a better player overall than Kobe in 09 and 10. Probably not 08, although it's debatable.

It's extremely debatable who the best player was in 11 (between Bron, Dirk, Wade, Dwight, Rose etc), but it has certainly been enough years to call 09-14 the 'LeBron era'. He's dominated the past 6 years more than anybody else by a clear margin and it may still continue.

[plowking]

Lebron was better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010 though...

But Lebron absolutely was not the best player in 2011.

Who was the best then?

Bron was 3rd in MVP voting, probably had the best regular season stats, beat the MVP in the playoffs, prior to the finals was having the 2nd best playoff run behind Dirk.

[ArbitraryWater]

Can we just keep Kobe stans out of this discussion?

All guys like hoopcityjones and statutory do is post 1-2 sentences, post their rolling smileys, and say the shit they have to say like it actually matters to anyone... you guys haven't made one argument so far.

[STATUTORY]

Bron is 30, Jordan was 31 when he came back... What is the problem?

Don't Kobe fans love comparing seasons and the amount of stress on their bodies as well? :roll:
Well Bron sure has a lot more of that at the same age. :oldlol:

the only stress lebron has is on his fragile ass ego from PTSD in failing in clutch moments in the playoffs

and the stress on his conscious for abandoning his city, fans, team, friends, family and step father repeatdly throughout his career

comparing a guy who sits out with menstrual cramps to a guy like Kobe who would play through ebola is insulting

[plowking]

:roll: lets' break down Bron's 6 year peak

2014 - dusted from the finals and outplayed by his counterpart on the opposing team and the best SF of the series Kawai Leonard
2013 - terrified to shoot the ball, plays hot potato in the 4th quarter, bailed out by Ray Allen
2012 - beats an inexperienced Durant team
2011 - legit CHOKES and HIDES from the mavs team so much that even wade
2010 - loses to a lower seeded team in a series that he was favored going in. Abandons city, team, family, friends in the offseason
2009 - same

greatest 6 year run of any top player in their prime :bowdown: :bowdown:

You could literally do the same thing from 2004-2009 for Kobe, which is what most of his fans claim to be his undisputed best player in the league time period. You could make it look far worse too. :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

Shaq 2000-02
Duncan 2003-05
Kobe 2006-08
Lebron 2009-13
Durant 2014-

Anyone trying to extend Lebron's "reign" further back or further ahead is delusional.

[Hey Yo]

Lmao, no he hasn't. He's only been the clear-cut best in 2012 and 2013. Durant was easily the best in 2014. In 2011, factoring in regular season and playoffs (especially in light of egg he laid in the Finals), he wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade was flat-out better than him.

Kobe gets the nod in 2010, considering LeBron laid another egg against the Celtics that postseason. And it was a toss-up between him and Wade in 2009-- I'll give it to James for his team record and playoff run, but it should be said, none of the Heat starters besides Wade would have started for the Cavs that year and some of them wouldn't have cracked Cleveland's rotation.

So there's the last six years. Top 2, the three years before? Debatable. Chris Paul deserves consideration in 2008 along with James and Bryant, especially since James choked against the Celtics yet again that year. In 2007, pre-injury Wade was without a doubt the best player in the league. He was at 29/5/8 through 50 games, basically identical to his 2009 stats, compared to LeBron's 26/6/6. But, Wade did get hurt, so calling James top 2 along with Bryant is probably fair. And you think he was definitively top 2 in 2006? Are you serious? When Wade did what he did that year and Kobe dropped 35/5/5 and put up 81? Please.


GTFO with that stan propaganda.
Haslem > Varejao
J. O'Neal vs. Big Z = coin flip.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq 2000-02
Duncan 2003-05
Kobe 2006-08
Lebron 2009-13
Durant 2014-

Anyone trying to extend Lebron's "reign" further back or further ahead is delusional.

wow... you think LeBron was better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010?

[plowking]

the only stress lebron has is on his fragile ass ego from PTSD in failing in clutch moments in the playoffs

and the stress on his conscious for abandoning his city, fans, team, friends, family and step father repeatdly throughout his career

comparing a guy who sits out with menstrual cramps to a guy like Kobe who would play through ebola is insulting

You clearly care about basketball and love/hate the individuals as people too much to have a proper discussion. They don't need your back up or insults bro. It doesn't matter.

[Papaya Petee]

I'm a Heat fan, and I guarantee I watched more games than you did that season of the Heat. And no, Wade wasn't better. Close, but no.

Another Heat fan who watched every single game says Wade was better.

Do you realize that their stats were as close as it gets, with LeBron being more ball-dominant? Regular season and playoffs. That's the only reason his APG # was higher than Wades, while everything else was pretty much equal.

LeBron was probably better than Wade in the 76ers series, and definitely better than Wade in the Bulls series, but Wade was MUCH better in the NBA Finals, and better in the Celtics series.

Also, you have to factor in how MUCH value the NBA Finals have. It's only 6 games, sure, but those 6 games are much more IMPORTANT than the rest of the season combined, in which LeBron was a complete disaster while Wade was dominant. If they had an equal performance there, sure you could say LeBron had a better year, but it wasn't even close. Had LeBron contributed just a tad more, and the Heat won that series, Wade would of had FMVP and there wouldn't be an argument about that season.

[HOoopCityJones]

He was a better player overall than Kobe in 09 and 10. Probably not 08, although it's debatable.

It's extremely debatable who the best player was in 11 (between Bron, Dirk, Wade, Dwight, Rose etc), but it has certainly been enough years to call 09-14 the 'LeBron era'. He's dominated the past 6 years and it may still continue.


You guys have the worse case of revisionist history at ISH Ive ever seen. No one was calling Lebron better than Kobe from 08-10. No one.

Gentry even had his famous "it's not even close" monologue in 2010 dude.


Lebron was getting his ass handed to him by the Celtics and Orlando. Two teams Kobe's Lakers beat.

It's funny , you guys have no problem pointing out how much a reg season Warrior KD is, yet you all still praise LBJ's early Cleveland days like he was going to the Finals every year. He made it once (just like KD) and aside from that he was just playing good ball regular season wise. He was no where near the best player.

If thats the case KD's been better than Lebron since he went to the Heat.

[plowking]

Shaq 2000-02
Duncan 2003-05
Kobe 2006-08
Lebron 2009-13
Durant 2014-

Anyone trying to extend Lebron's "reign" further back or further ahead is delusional.

Looks about right, but Shaq I feel was better for longer than that. I'm not sure Duncan was ever the best player in basketball, and that isn't a bad thing, it just happened to coincide with someone who was far more physically capable and imposing. You have to remember Shaq almost won, and probably should have won the MVP in 2005. In my opinion, he still was the best player, even then.

[HOoopCityJones]

Can we just keep Kobe stans out of this discussion?

All guys like hoopcityjones and statutory do is post 1-2 sentences, post their rolling smileys, and say the shit they have to say like it actually matters to anyone... you guys haven't made one argument so far.

And all you do is post other peoples shit.

Worthless plagiarizer who can't articulate his own opinion.

Run along to RealGm for your retort, bitch.

[Papaya Petee]

Haslem > Varejao
J. O'Neal vs. Big Z = coin flip.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Rookie Mario Chalmers
Yakhuba Diawara (Who?)
Rookie Beasley (plays in China in his prime)
Udonis Haslem
Ancient J'O
James Jones
Jamario Moon....

That was the Heat main Roster aside from Wade, players like a Rookie Beasley and Chalmers getting 30 MPG

[plowking]

Another Heat fan who watched every single game says Wade was better.

Do you realize that their stats were as close as it gets, with LeBron being more ball-dominant? Regular season and playoffs. That's the only reason his APG # was higher than Wades, while everything else was pretty much equal.

LeBron was probably better than Wade in the 76ers series, and definitely better than Wade in the Bulls series, but Wade was MUCH better in the NBA Finals, and better in the Celtics series.

Also, you have to factor in how MUCH value the NBA Finals have. It's only 6 games, sure, but those 6 games are much more IMPORTANT than the rest of the season combined, in which LeBron was a complete disaster while Wade was dominant. If they had an equal performance there, sure you could say LeBron had a better year, but it wasn't even close. Had LeBron contributed just a tad more, and the Heat won that series, Wade would of had FMVP and there wouldn't be an argument about that season.

There is a reason Bron was more dominant, had the ball in his hands more, put up better stats, received more MVP votes, etc.
You put the ball in your best players hands the most.

Agreed, Finals are clearly the most important, but Lebron was better throughout the year. MVP voting, first team all NBA, and he was in general the more consistent player. Wade had his ups and downs, where as you usually got what you got with Lebron.

[ArbitraryWater]

Another Heat fan who watched every single game says Wade was better.

Do you realize that their stats were as close as it gets, with LeBron being more ball-dominant? Regular season and playoffs. That's the only reason his APG # was higher than Wades, while everything else was pretty much equal.

LeBron was probably better than Wade in the 76ers series, and definitely better than Wade in the Bulls series, but Wade was MUCH better in the NBA Finals, and better in the Celtics series.

Also, you have to factor in how MUCH value the NBA Finals have. It's only 6 games, sure, but those 6 games are much more IMPORTANT than the rest of the season combined, in which LeBron was a complete disaster while Wade was dominant. If they had an equal performance there, sure you could say LeBron had a better year, but it wasn't even close. Had LeBron contributed just a tad more, and the Heat won that series, Wade would of had FMVP and there wouldn't be an argument about that season.

LeBron was the best player in the Sixers series, and the closer in the ECSF vs. Celtics and ECF vs. Bulls (best player), though... while being the better regular season player.

Playoff 4th quarters

ECSF vs Celtics

Game 4: Down 69-73, 4 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-8 including a huge game tying 3 with 2 minutes left as they get it into Overtime and win.

Game 5: Down Down 71-73, 2 Point Game.

LeBron scores 13 Points on 5-7 to win the Game & Series.
Game was tied 87-87 with 2.10 left when LeBron went off, scoring the game's last 10 Points on 4-4 to finish off the Series by winning 97-87.


ECF vs Bulls

Game 2: Up 71-65 going into the 4th.

Up 76-73, 3 point game with 4.30 remaining: LeBron closes the game by scoring 9 Points on 4-6. (9 4Q Points)

Game 3: Up 68-65, 1 Possession Game.

LeBron scores 10 Points on 3-5 to win 96-85.

Game 4: Down 63-68, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 7 Points on 2-6 and the Game goes into Overtime at 85 a piece. Lebron goes on to score 6 Points on 2-3.

Game 5: Down 57-62, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-6.

The Heat were down 65-77, 12 Points, with 3.10 remaining.

From that point on, they made a 18-3 Run to close it out and Win 83-80.

Both LeBron and Wade scored 8 Points each, and missed 0 Shots doing so (+ Bosh FT's).

LeBron held Rose to 1-10 with 2 TO's defensively, including blocking his game tying buzzer beater.

Via ESPN Stats & Info: "Derrick Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by LeBron James."

The lowest of any player against Rose in his career.



LeBron was the ECF's best player by a wide margin... And that got them to the finals in the FIRST PLACE.

Wade averaged 1 more PPG in the ECF than LeBron did in the Finals, on 8% less shooting....

18/7/7 on 48% vs. 19/6/2 on 41%

[HOoopCityJones]

LeBron was the best player in the Sixers series, and the closer in the ECSF vs. Celtics and ECF vs. Bulls (best player), though... while being the better regular season player.

Playoff 4th quarters

ECSF vs Celtics

Game 4: Down 69-73, 4 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-8 including a huge game tying 3 with 2 minutes left as they get it into Overtime and win.

Game 5: Down Down 71-73, 2 Point Game.

LeBron scores 13 Points on 5-7 to win the Game & Series.
Game was tied 87-87 with 2.10 left when LeBron went off, scoring the game's last 10 Points on 4-4 to finish off the Series by winning 97-87.


ECF vs Bulls

Game 2: Up 71-65 going into the 4th.

Up 76-73, 3 point game with 4.30 remaining: LeBron closes the game by scoring 9 Points on 4-6. (9 4Q Points)

Game 3: Up 68-65, 1 Possession Game.

LeBron scores 10 Points on 3-5 to win 96-85.

Game 4: Down 63-68, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 7 Points on 2-6 and the Game goes into Overtime at 85 a piece. Lebron goes on to score 6 Points on 2-3.

Game 5: Down 57-62, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-6.

The Heat were down 65-77, 12 Points, with 3.10 remaining.

From that point on, they made a 18-3 Run to close it out and Win 83-80.

Both LeBron and Wade scored 8 Points each, and missed 0 Shots doing so (+ Bosh FT's).

LeBron held Rose to 1-10 with 2 TO's defensively, including blocking his game tying buzzer beater.

Via ESPN Stats & Info: "Derrick Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by LeBron James."

The lowest of any player against Rose in his career.

LeBron was the ECF's best player by a wide margin... And that got them to the finals in the FIRST PLACE.

From RealGM.

[ralph_i_el]

It really makes you appreciate how good he used to be.

I mean, he's a legitimate top-5 player with plenty of claim to that #1 spot....and he's noticeably declined.

[Magic 32]

wow... you think LeBron was better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010?

Phil and Kobe deliberately took the foot of the gas pedal during the 2008-09 season, trying to avoid the meltdown at the end of the Boston series.

His minutes went from 38.9 to 36.1.

Kobe did not care about the regular season anymore. Lebron did.

In 2010 Kobe pretty much exited his prime around the all-star break. After that there were only flashes of his peak left (Jazz and Suns series).

[ArbitraryWater]

You guys have the worse case of revisionist history at ISH Ive ever seen. No one was calling Lebron better than Kobe from 08-10. No one.

Gentry even had his famous "it's not even close" monologue in 2010 dude.

Why was it famous when everyone thought Kobe was better than LeBron?

[ArbitraryWater]

From RealGM.

yeah, ugh, its really not..

[chocolatethunder]

And ?

Noone stays #1 forever.
Who does Noone play for?

[HOoopCityJones]

It really makes you appreciate how good he used to be.

I mean, he's a legitimate top-5 player with plenty of claim to that #1 spot....and he's noticeably declined.

Curry
Davis
Westbrook
Gasol
Lowry
Harden
Boogie
Drose


All of them are having better seasons than Lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is a reason Bron was more dominant, had the ball in his hands more, put up better stats, received more MVP votes, etc.
You put the ball in your best players hands the most.

Agreed, Finals are clearly the most important, but Lebron was better throughout the year. MVP voting, first team all NBA, and he was in general the more consistent player. Wade had his ups and downs, where as you usually got what you got with Lebron.

Exactly. Wade was second team all-NBA and a distant 7th in MVP voting. No one was seriously arguing that Wade was better than LeBron at the time.

[HOoopCityJones]

Why was it famous when everyone thought Kobe was better than LeBron?

Because it was after a tough loss in the WCF. :biggums:


You're like ****in retarded or something.

[tpols]

He was. A major f*ck up over 5 games doesn't change that.
Uh.. He wasn't the best player in the regular season.. And he sure as hell wasn't the best in the playoffs. Yea choking and throwing a whole season away in the finals does matter. You're literally out of your mind.

[ArbitraryWater]

Uh.. He wasn't the best player in the regular season.. And he sure as hell wasn't the best in the playoffs. Yea choking and throwing a whole season away in the finals does matter. You're literally out of your mind.


.......... who was better?!

[tpols]

.......... who was better?!

In 2011?

If you check the pure impact rapm numbers Dwight was easily better in the regular season.

Chris Paul also had pure impact numbers right on par with Bron while leading a much weaker team to the playoffs in a tougher conference and having one of the best crunch time performing teams as well.

If you look at situational numbers not just impact against everyone but how a player performed in tougher matches against better teams and how well games were closed Rose > Bron as well as the heat were one of the worst crunch time teams in the league that year and Bron shot like 10% on game winners that year as well as having his crunch time stats fall off considerably.



And Playoffs?

Dirk was >>>.
Wade was very slightly better.
And I'd take Chris Paul as well.. His 2011 first round performance was the best I've ever seen him play in the playoffs.

If you switched any of the above for Bron in the postseason the heat cruise to a championship.

[DMAVS41]

Who was the best then?

Bron was 3rd in MVP voting, probably had the best regular season stats, beat the MVP in the playoffs, prior to the finals was having the 2nd best playoff run behind Dirk.

The best players overall in 2011?

My list would go something like:

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Howard
4. Lebron
5. Durant

Collapsing in the finals matters.

Dirk led his team, in a tougher conference, to only 1 less win...despite his team going 2-7 without him. Then Dirk has a playoff run that trumps Lebron overall...and in the most important 6 games of the year...Lebron wets the bed as bad or worse than any star in NBA history in the finals

And it wasn't like Dirk wasn't producing either.

He was a 23/7/3 61% TS player in the regular season with a positive 16 scoring difference on/off and a net scoring differential of 10.6

Lebron clearly had more help...and was clearly worse in the most important games of the year.

I'll take the guy that can lead my team to a title...

Here's a question...what team could Lebron have won a title on in 11? Is there actually a team that could have still won with him choking that badly? I really don't think so.

Hard to be the best player in the game when no team in the league can win with you. Right?

[guy]

Exactly. Wade was second team all-NBA and a distant 7th in MVP voting. No one was seriously arguing that Wade was better than LeBron at the time.

Wade was screwed out of first team that year though. He was better then Kobe. Better stats, more efficient, better defense, etc.

[DMAVS41]

Wade was screwed out of first team that year though. He was better then Kobe. Better stats, more efficient, better defense, etc.

Yea...you'll notice people jump to all nba stuff when the actual data doesn't support them.

Wade in 11:

26/6/5 58% TS RAPM 5.9

Kobe in 11:

25/5/5 55% TS RAPM 2.8

They were similar offensively (although Wade was better imo)...but Wade was very good defensively while Kobe was poor.


I don't care what popular opinion was...this notion that Lebron in 11 was light years beyond Wade is silly. Wade was a beast on both ends in 11...and he didn't choke so badly that it cost his team a title. Therefore he gets the nod over Bron Bron for me.

[Kblaze8855]

The Heat were one missed 3 by Wade from winning the first 3 games of the 2011 finals. Its a rather wide gulf between...one shot from 3-0...and cant possibly have won.

Dirk was not the best player in 2011 either way. He got the usual 10minutes of people saying so after he won(Same as 06 Wade) but it didnt stick. 3 months later 15 GMS didnt even have him as the best power forward in the NBA.

I compare 2011 with 75. Rick Barry took a team that shouldnt win to the title....but that doesnt make him better than Kareem.

Id say 2011...best was Dwight or Lebron. I bounced back and forth during the season.

Dwight was pretty monstrous. And im not gonna blame you for losing a series you up up 27/16 on 63% shooting in. Your #2 Jameer does 13 on 38%? Hedo 9/4 on 29%? Jrich 10 on 33%? Ryan Anderson 5 on 27%? Brandon Bass 7 on 42?

Has anyone...ever...had less help in a series?

You are getting that kind of support....im not listening to any argument based on you going out in the first round. Hes out there handing out 46 and 19 playoff games...

Dwight was on a true all time great level for a minute there. He put up like 25/15 for 3 months....as the DPOY?

Dwight is a reasonable pick for #1 in 2011. As is Lebron from a just...being better than others at basketball point of view...

Its one of them.

I might lean Dwight. His offense was pretty epic by the standards of people who also deserved DPOY.

Both ends...he put in work.

[GrapeApe]

Yea...you'll notice people jump to all nba stuff when the actual data doesn't support them.

Wade in 11:

26/6/5 58% TS RAPM 5.9

Kobe in 11:

25/5/5 55% TS RAPM 2.8

They were similar offensively (although Wade was better imo)...but Wade was very good defensively while Kobe was poor.


I don't care what popular opinion was...this notion that Lebron in 11 was light years beyond Wade is silly. Wade was a beast on both ends in 11...and he didn't choke so badly that it cost his team a title. Therefore he gets the nod over Bron Bron for me.

I think it was a toss up between Wade and LeBron that year, but Wade was without question robbed if first team all NBA.

[guy]

Maybe..

13-14 Durant was 1A LeBron 1B
12-13 LeBron easily
11-12 LeBron easily
10-11 Wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade> LeBron
09-10 LeBron easily
08-09 1A 1B with Wade, Wades team was garbage but individually =,> LeBron
07-08 Kobe Easily then CP3
06-07 Kobe Easily
05-06 Wade and Kobe > LeBron

He has an argument for being the best player for about 6 seasons, but there's legitimate arguments for him being the best for about 3.

I give Lebron best player in 09 but not 10. He quit on his team. I'd rather have Kobe even though he wasn't as good of an overall player just cause of that fact. I think of best player as who would I want leading my team for the season. With what happened to Lebron that year, I couldn't choose him over Kobe. It seemed like the years before Lebron didn't really have that mentality and had more confidence in his teammates and his ability to lead them. Maybe it was blindfully ignorant, but that made him a better player as a result. The funny thing is the 2010 Cavs was probably the best team he had ever had up until that point. Maybe it would be one thing if his team was just really bad, but they weren't at all. They weren't great, but they were good enough that you'd expect him to keep fighting and believe they have a chance.

So for me, its kind of weird. His "best player" years are kinda scattered. I'd give him the nod in 2009, 2012, and 2013. I'd give it to Kobe in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010. Really hard to choose for 2014 between Lebron and Durant.

As far as this year goes, he's clearly declined. Its kind of funny too, cause he gets a lot of credit for going back to Cleveland, but it looks like he's going to end up leaving his best years in Miami. With that said, he's still a great player, and maybe will end up still being the best player in the league by the end of the season. It is a testament to how great he was that 25/5/8 on 49% is his decline. Every player declines at some point.

[DMAVS41]

The Heat were one missed 3 by Wade from winning the first 3 games of the 2011 finals. Its a rather wide gulf between...one shot from 3-0...and cant possibly have won.

Dirk was not the best player in 2011 either way. He got the usual 10minutes of people saying so after he won(Same as 06 Wade) but it didnt stick. 3 months later 15 GMS didnt even have him as the best power forward in the NBA.

I compare 2011 with 75. Rick Barry took a team that shouldnt win to the title....but that doesnt make him better than Kareem.

Id say 2011...best was Dwight or Lebron. I bounced back and forth during the season.

Dwight was pretty monstrous. And im not gonna blame you for losing a series you up up 27/16 on 63% shooting in. Your #2 Jameer does 13 on 38%? Hedo 9/4 on 29%? Jrich 10 on 33%? Ryan Anderson 5 on 27%? Brandon Bass 7 on 42?

Has anyone...ever...had less help in a series?

You are getting that kind of support....im not listening to any argument based on you going out in the first round. Hes out there handing out 46 and 19 playoff games...

Dwight was on a true all time great level for a minute there. He put up like 25/15 for 3 months....as the DPOY?

Dwight is a reasonable pick for #1 in 2011. As is Lebron from a just...being better than others at basketball point of view...

Its one of them.

I might lean Dwight. His offense was pretty epic by the standards of people who also deserved DPOY.

Both ends...he put in work.

You could make arguments for Howard and Wade and Dirk, but I don't see how you can make an argument for Lebron when looking at the entire body of work and obviously putting more emphasis on how one plays in the most important games.

Also, you dismiss Dirk too easily. The Mavs were absolutely untouchable with him on the court...and dreadful without him. In both the regular season and playoffs...the Mavs were over 16 points worse without Dirk.

[livinglegend]

Yea...you'll notice people jump to all nba stuff when the actual data doesn't support them.

Wade in 11:

26/6/5 58% TS RAPM 5.9

Kobe in 11:

25/5/5 55% TS RAPM 2.8

They were similar offensively (although Wade was better imo)...but Wade was very good defensively while Kobe was poor.


I don't care what popular opinion was...this notion that Lebron in 11 was light years beyond Wade is silly. Wade was a beast on both ends in 11...and he didn't choke so badly that it cost his team a title. Therefore he gets the nod over Bron Bron for me.

Wade did choke badly against Chicago, but Lebron and Bosh were so good that his choking didn't matter.

[tomtucker]

he ruined his legacy by going back to cleveland.........in the future we will remember him as a player who left 2 teams in the dust to pursue personal glory.........he will fade away in cleveland.......soon noone will care about him or the cavs .........a sad end, but he chose it himself

[Marchesk]

LeBron just caped off a 6-year run of being the league's best player... (only Kareem/Jordan have longer ones)

Wilt was really the best player for most of the 60s, but he was in competition with another top 4 all-time player, unlike the case with Lebron, who's only competition has been a young Durant.

[livinglegend]

Wilt was really the best player for most of the 60s, but he was in competition with another top 4 all-time player, unlike the case with Lebron, who's only competition has been a young Durant.

No, he wasn't. Russell was the best player of the 60's. He knew how to play to WIN!

[Kblaze8855]

You really want another lengthy back and forth on me meaning all aspects of basketball when you ask me who the best is?

Dirk...im gonna compare him to mid to late 80s Kareem.

Effective because you cant stop his shot. He can still do work. Drop 40 on Hakeem...carry you down the stretch of a close playoff game. Nobody is saying he cant.

But hes also getting 7 rebounds and not moving his feet on defense anymore.

So I cant put you over better...basketball players.

Kareem at 36-38 was something close to elite...as an offensive weapon. And he was savy enough with his veteran ways and tricks...to make some of the young guns look foolish. spin off an attempted blindside steal by a guard. Pump fake Hakeem out his shoes and lay it in.

Effective.

But you get 6 rebounds and cant get from one side of the lane to the other before a guard can lay it in....I have to start looking at the Jordans and so on...

All respect to the unstoppable hook/fadeaway. God knows it worked.

But the best player in basketball has to be more than that to me.

Id say Dirk was closer to it in 2005 than 2011. Lebron wasnt Lebron yet...Kobe off year. Shaq no longer the real Shaq. The "Dirk plays no defense" thing was already untrue. He was still rebounding...mobile. Really moved his feet on defense. Already unguardable. Team lost Nash, Toine, and Jamison...

Got better.

Id have given the 05 MVP to Dirk or Shaq even if neither was the best all around player.

Duncan and KG...all around...probably get the nod.

[ArbitraryWater]

The best players overall in 2011?

My list would go something like:

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Howard
4. Lebron
5. Durant

Collapsing in the finals matters.

Dirk led his team, in a tougher conference, to only 1 less win...despite his team going 2-7 without him. Then Dirk has a playoff run that trumps Lebron overall...and in the most important 6 games of the year...Lebron wets the bed as bad or worse than any star in NBA history in the finals

And it wasn't like Dirk wasn't producing either.

He was a 23/7/3 61% TS player in the regular season with a positive 16 scoring difference on/off and a net scoring differential of 10.6

Lebron clearly had more help...and was clearly worse in the most important games of the year.

I'll take the guy that can lead my team to a title...

Here's a question...what team could Lebron have won a title on in 11? Is there actually a team that could have still won with him choking that badly? I really don't think so.

Hard to be the best player in the game when no team in the league can win with you. Right?

Thats dumb.... what he did isn't what the player would do every time.

Under that same logic, 2006 Wade is GOD, because no team would lose a finals with 3rd-year Wade.... you gotta ask yourself what a guy can consistently do. 2006 Wade was amazing, but he won't consistently have that kind of a finals series... Neither will 2011 LeBron.. (He didn't have an agenda to sabotage anyone's FMVP.. you know that.)


I give Lebron best player in 09 but not 10. He quit on his team. I'd rather have Kobe even though he wasn't as good of an overall player just cause of that fact. I think of best player as who would I want leading my team for the season. With what happened to Lebron that year, I couldn't choose him over Kobe. It seemed like the years before Lebron didn't really have that mentality and had more confidence in his teammates and his ability to lead them. Maybe it was blindfully ignorant, but that made him a better player as a result. The funny thing is the 2010 Cavs was probably the best team he had ever had up until that point. Maybe it would be one thing if his team was just really bad, but they weren't at all. They weren't great, but they were good enough that you'd expect him to keep fighting and believe they have a chance.

So for me, its kind of weird. His "best player" years are kinda scattered. I'd give him the nod in 2009, 2012, and 2013. I'd give it to Kobe in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010. Really hard to choose for 2014 between Lebron and Durant.

As far as this year goes, he's clearly declined. Its kind of funny too, cause he gets a lot of credit for going back to Cleveland, but it looks like he's going to end up leaving his best years in Miami. With that said, he's still a great player, and maybe will end up still being the best player in the league by the end of the season. It is a testament to how great he was that 25/5/8 on 49% is his decline. Every player declines at some point.

You can't keep LeBron out of 2010 for "quitting", and then give Kobe 2006... Gotta stay consistent there.

[Heavincent]

Some revisionist history from the Bran stans here...Kobe was widely regarded as the best player in 09 and 10. Most analysts referred to him as the best player in the world, just like they did with Bran from 2012-14.

[nathanjizzle]

d rose was better than bron in 2011. hard for those to believe who just believe in general consensus.

[livinglegend]

d rose was better than bron in 2011.

6%


next

[jrong]

Wade did choke badly against Chicago, but Lebron and Bosh were so good that his choking didn't matter.

Actually, he didn't. He did exactly what a superstar is supposed to do when they're having a poor series: he came through when it mattered (in fact, if you look at the overall trend of the era, with the exception of last year's Finals, Wade always came through in the playoff games that he had to, no matter how hurt he was).

Against the Bulls, he scored 5 straight points to give the heat separation in the 4th Q of G3, had 6 pts and 3 blks in the OT of G4, and scored 10 straight pts in the 4th Q of G5, including the 4 point play that cut the lead from 7 to 3. He ended up with 21 in that game.

And in G2, he played well, with 24 pts.

In other words, he did exactly what LeBron failed to do in the Finals: come through in the end. Had LeBron done so, the Heat would would have won in 4 or 5 tops, but it would have meant Wade would been FMVP, which would have been catastrophic to James' brand. That's why over the years I've become suspicious that the what happened wasn't that LeBron choked in the Finals but that he intentionally threw the Finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wilt was really the best player for most of the 60s, but he was in competition with another top 4 all-time player, unlike the case with Lebron, who's only competition has been a young Durant.

So what... that excuse again. His competition has been prime Kobe, peak Wade/Dirk in 2009/2010, peak Howard/Paul and prime Durant... not bad at all.

3rd-year LeBron was a couple of votes away of becoming the youngest MVP winner ever over peak Kobe/Dirk/KG/Nash and prime Duncan.

[GrapeApe]

Wade did choke badly against Chicago, but Lebron and Bosh were so good that his choking didn't matter.

He didn't "choke badly". Despite having a mediocre series by his standards, he came up big in late game situations which is the opposite of choking. Had LeBron done the same thing in the finals the Heat would have won the series. The Bulls openly admitted that slowing down Wade was their primary focus. It worked to some degree, but he stepped up when it mattered, unlike Lebron.

[fpliii]

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Howard
4. Lebron
5. Durant
Not a bad list. I'm not sure about the order (though Dirk is my #1, for regular season, playoffs, or both combined), Dwight might be #2, with LeBron and Wade 3rd/4th in some order. Would sub out Durant for CP3 (though KD in 13 and 14 is on another level from Paul I'd say).

[Kblaze8855]

Some revisionist history from the Bran stans here...Kobe was widely regarded as the best player in 09 and 10. Most analysts referred to him as the best player in the world, just like they did with Bran from 2012-14.

Kobe would likely get the edge if you asked a bunch of reasonable people...but in 09 and 10 Lebron had a LOT of people saying it was him. You dont win 66 games with that little talent putting up those numbers and not have people rank you #1. I think he got like 115+ of 120 MVP votes one of those years. Perhaps both. And thats while Kobe won 65 games one season.

By percentage I suspect far more people would have Bron as the obvious #1 12-14 than Kobe 08-11.

Kobe had Lebron to deal with that whole run. Durant didnt take a lot of shine until last season.

You could say Lebron has less in his way than Kobe.

[livinglegend]

Actually, he didn't. He did exactly what a superstar is supposed to do when they're having a poor series: he came through when it mattered.

He scored 5 straight points to give the heat separation in the 4th Q of G3, had 6 pts and 3 blks in the OT of G4, and scored 10 straight pts in the 4th Q of G5, including the 4 point play that cut the lead from 7 to 3. He ended up with 21 in that game.

And in G2, he played well, with 24 pts.

In other words, he did exactly what LeBron failed to do in the Finals: come through in the end. Had LeBron done so, the Heat would would have won in 4 or 5 tops, but it would have meant Wade would been FMVP, which would have been catastrophic to James' brand, which is why over the years I've become suspicious that the what happened wasn't that LeBron choked in the Finals but that he intentionally threw the Finals.

Bullshit! Revionist history. The only game where he was clutch was game 5. The other games Lebron was the best defender, best offensive player and the most clutch. If it wasn't for Lebron playing like GOD Heat would be gone.

[nathanjizzle]

6%


next

6% is still better than N/A

[ArbitraryWater]

Some revisionist history from the Bran stans here...Kobe was widely regarded as the best player in 09 and 10. Most analysts referred to him as the best player in the world, just like they did with Bran from 2012-14.

Every single Kobe supporter bases their opinion................ on the opinion of others.. lol.

2009 and 2010 LeBron is a better player than any Kobe version, you know it, too.

Especially in 2009 it was more obvious. If you'd just be honest you would admit that both LeBron/Wade were > Kobe.

[livinglegend]

6% is still better than N/A

i said next!:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[tpols]

Thats dumb.... what he did isn't what the player would do every time.

Under that same logic, 2006 Wade is GOD, because no team would lose a finals with 3rd-year Wade.... you gotta ask yourself what a guy can consistently do. 2006 Wade was amazing, but he won't consistently have that kind of a finals series... Neither will 2011 LeBron.. (He didn't have an agenda to sabotage anyone's FMVP.. you know that.)



You can't keep LeBron out of 2010 for "quitting", and then give Kobe 2006... Gotta stay consistent there.

Knew someone would bring this up.. And no, they aren't comparable.

Kobe went HAM in 2006 against the Suns.. 50 point game, game winners, facilitating teammates to start and going all out through 90% of the series, believing LA could win.. Until game seven second half when they were getting blown out.

That's not the same as quitting dead in the middle of a series tied 2-2 at home. There's articles on it.. Bron just went ghost dead in the middle of a series because his mind was obviously elsewhere set on leaving for greener pastures (as evidenced in the upcoming months). He even made up a fake elbow injury in that series that has literally never ever been a problem before or after.

[livinglegend]

Knew someone would bring this up.. And no, they aren't comparable.

Kobe went HAM in 2006 against the Suns.. 50 point game, game winners, facilitating teammates to start and going all out through 90% of the series, believing LA could win.. Until game seven second half when they were getting blown out.

That's not the same as quitting dead in the middle of a series tied 2-2 at home. There's articles on it.. Bron just went ghost dead in the middle of a series because his mind was obviously elsewhere set on leaving for greener pastures (as evidenced in the upcoming months). He even made up a fake elbow injury in that series that has literally never ever been a problem before or after.

Well he did give up in the second half of game 7, no excuses. The rest of your post is based on speculations. He faked elbow injury ( yeah right, we should believe!). His mind was elsewhere set on leaving for greener pastures ( yeah right!).

[ArbitraryWater]

Knew someone would bring this up.. And no, they aren't comparable.

Kobe went HAM in 2006 against the Suns.. 50 point game, game winners, facilitating teammates to start and going all out through 90% of the series, believing LA could win.. Until game seven second half when they were getting blown out.

That's not the same as quitting dead in the middle of a series tied 2-2 at home. There's articles on it.. Bron just went ghost dead in the middle of a series because his mind was obviously elsewhere set on leaving for greener pastures (as evidenced in the upcoming months). He even made up a fake elbow injury in that series that has literally never ever been a problem before or after.

LeBron quit in game 5, series tied 2-2... He obviously tried in game 6, evidenced by 27/19/10, and 9 turnovers... he tried.

But the Lakers were down 15 at halftime, and Kobe attempted 3 shots in the 2nd half....... 0-3

One of the best volume scorers ever, having a historic season, 35 ppg, 40+ ppg months, 50, 60, 81 point games.... doesn't attempt to try in game 7 of the playoff series down 15 into the 2nd half..... gimme a break.

And like livinglegend says, the most of your post is garbage speculation/hate.

[nathanjizzle]

i said next!:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

how many emoticons do you have to make? its just the truth, not here to troll you.

[jrong]

Bullshit! Revionist history. The only game where he was clutch was game 5. The other games Lebron was the best defender, best offensive player and the most clutch. If it wasn't for Lebron playing like GOD Heat would be gone.

Sorry, dude, you're the revisionist. I never said LeBron wasn't the best player in those games. But, what happened is exactly as I said it. Go back and watch the games or look up the play-by-plays. Wade came through when it mattered.

[tpols]

Well he did give up in the second half of game 7, no excuses. The rest of your post is based on speculations. He faked elbow injury ( yeah right, we should believe!). His mind was elsewhere set on leaving for greener pastures ( yeah right!).

I mean I just wouldn't classify them as the same level of quitting.. If Kobe had thrown in the towel in game 5 and not even put his all into the series right in the thick of the battle, that'd be pretty fked up. When you're getting blown out in a game 7 against a top speed as an underdog on the road.. I wouldn't say somebody stop trying there is nearly as bad as the first scenario. It's simple context.

And yea.. you'd be pretty naive to think Bron just woke up on the day of the decision and spontaneously declared he was going to Miami.

[Heavincent]

Every single Kobe supporter bases their opinion................ on the opinion of others.. lol.

2009 and 2010 LeBron is a better player than any Kobe version, you know it, too.

Especially in 2009 it was more obvious. If you'd just be honest you would admit that both LeBron/Wade were > Kobe.

Don't give me this shit about being "honest" :oldlol: You're one of the biggest Bran stans here.

Give me the guy who put up 30/6/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs between 08 and 10, made 3 straight Finals appearances, won 2 titles, 2 FMVP's, etc. All of this against elite western competition.

- Averaged 34/8/7 on 52% shooting in the 2010 WCF

- Averaged 34/6/6 on 46% shooting in the 2009 WCF

- DESTROYED the defending champion Spurs in the 08 WCF, finished the series off in game 5 by leading an amazing comeback

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. This was Kobe's league between 08 and 10. Period. He also the best in 06 and 07. And no, my argument isn't solely just based on rings. He was just playing the best ball.

[GrapeApe]

Sorry, dude, you're the revisionist. I never said LeBron wasn't the best player in those games. But, what happened is exactly as I said it. Go back and watch the games or look up the play-by-plays. Wade came through when it mattered.

Exactly. LeBron was indeed the best player in the series, but Wade was extremely clutch. To argue otherwise is stupid. Unlike the finals where LeBron was mentally flustered, Wade fought through his struggles to make big plays down the stretch. That's what superstars do.

[HurricaneKid]

Lmao, no he hasn't. He's only been the clear-cut best in 2012 and 2013. Durant was easily the best in 2014. In 2011, factoring in regular season and playoffs (especially in light of egg he laid in the Finals), he wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade was flat-out better than him.

Kobe gets the nod in 2010, considering LeBron laid another egg against the Celtics that postseason. And it was a toss-up between him and Wade in 2009-- I'll give it to James for his team record and playoff run, but it should be said, none of the Heat starters besides Wade would have started for the Cavs that year and some of them wouldn't have cracked Cleveland's rotation.

So there's the last six years. Top 2, the three years before? Debatable. Chris Paul deserves consideration in 2008 along with James and Bryant, especially since James choked against the Celtics yet again that year. In 2007, pre-injury Wade was without a doubt the best player in the league. He was at 29/5/8 through 50 games, basically identical to his 2009 stats, compared to LeBron's 26/6/6. But, Wade did get hurt, so calling James top 2 along with Bryant is probably fair. And you think he was definitively top 2 in 2006? Are you serious? When Wade did what he did that year and Kobe dropped 35/5/5 and put up 81? Please.

GTFO with that stan propaganda.

And welcome to the ignore list. Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2010? It'd be nice if someone could led their TEAM in WS, PER, Postseason WS, PER, Finals WS, ANYTHING besides PPG and FGA before someone suggests they are the best in the league. Kobe wasn't in the top 30 in RAPM in 2010. Just UGH.

[livinglegend]

Sorry, dude, you're the revisionist. I never said LeBron wasn't the best player in those games. But, what happened is exactly as I said it. Go back and watch the games or look up the play-by-plays. Wade came through when it mattered.

I watched the series. The only time wade made an impact was game 5. Also, at the end of the day, basketball is played for 48 minutes and if you look at Lebron stats in the finals and Wade stats in ECF, Lebron had the better stats. Meaning Wade was as bad as Lebron or even worse, but Lebron was so good in EC that he canceled Wade's choking.

[livinglegend]

Exactly. LeBron was indeed the best player in the series, but Wade was extremely clutch. To argue otherwise is stupid. Unlike the finals where LeBron was mentally flustered, Wade fought through his struggles to make big plays down the stretch. That's what superstars do.

No, superstars don't play like shit for 45 minutes, and then make 1 shot. They play great the whole game on both hands of the floor!

[Dro]

Stop with the knee jerk reactions. Lebron is still the best all around player in the league...Yeah, I'd pick Harden or Curry for MVP if I had to choose today, still neither of them are better overall players than Lebron James....Lebron still has the single biggest impact on a team in this league IMO....

[livinglegend]

I mean I just wouldn't classify them as the same level of quitting.. If Kobe had thrown in the towel in game 5 and not even put his all into the series right in the thick of the battle, that'd be pretty fked up. When you're getting blown out in a game 7 against a top speed as an underdog on the road.. I wouldn't say somebody stop trying there is nearly as bad as the first scenario. It's simple context.

And yea.. you'd be pretty naive to think Bron just woke up on the day of the decision and spontaneously declared he was going to Miami.

Well, that's your opinion. For me, quitting in game 7 is worse.

[ArbitraryWater]

Don't give me this shit about being "honest" :oldlol: You're one of the biggest Bran stans here.

Give me the guy who put up 30/6/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs between 08 and 10, made 3 straight Finals appearances, won 2 titles, 2 FMVP's, etc. All of this against elite western competition.

- Averaged 34/8/7 on 52% shooting in the 2010 WCF

- Averaged 34/6/6 on 46% shooting in the 2009 WCF

- DESTROYED the defending champion Spurs in the 08 WCF, finished the series off in game 5 by leading an amazing comeback

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. This was Kobe's league between 08 and 10. Period. He also the best in 06 and 07. And no, my argument isn't solely just based on rings. He was just playing the best ball.

LeBron led a mediocre Cavalier team to 66 wins and the best record in the league.
66-16 - w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2 on/off turnaround)

Won the MVP, led the league in PER, Win-Shares, etc.

LeBron put up 35/9/7 on 51% for an entire playoff run that went 3 rounds deep.... with 39/8/8 in the ECF, three 40+ point games, 37-point triple double, game winner....

On a per-minute basis, James' 87.9% individual win percentage (the estimate of how often James and 4 average players would win) BLOWS AWAY any other performance since the merger.

This is his playoff run:

He had games of:

38/8/7 on 65%, 29/13/6 on 50%, 25/11/9 on 47%, 36/13/8, 34/10 on 60%, 47/12/8 on 60%, 49/6/8 on 67%, 35 on 52% while hitting the game winning buzzer beating 3, 41/7/9, 44/12/7, 37/14/12....

Those are 11 of the 14 games he played....

Kobe was not better... and he wouldn't be either in 2010, realistically.

During 2010 James took similar responsibilities for 1 month from from January 19th to February 18th due to an injury to Mo Williams.

In 13 games as PG with the absence of Mo Williams he averaged:

31.7 points per game, 10.8 assists per game, 7.3 rpg
Cavaliers Record: 12-1

Notable Games (during the 13-game stretch):
28 points, 9 rebounds, 11 assists vs. Toronto Raptors
37 points, 9 assists vs. Los Angeles Lakers
37 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
32 points, 9 rebounds, 14 assists vs. Miami Heat
22 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Los Angeles Clippers
22 points, 6 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Memphis Grizzlies
36 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists vs. Miami Heat
47 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists vs. New York Knicks
32 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Orlando Magic
43 points, 13 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Denver Nuggets

His averages: 31.7ppg 7.3rpg 10.8apg 1.8spg 1.2bpg (3.7 TOPG) on 48/31/76

LeBron got BETTER.... MORE complete, steadier jumpshot, better defensively, better playmaker, more efficient, while MAINTAINING his athleticism..

In 2010? MAGIC32 himself said Kobe exited his prime.... Gasol had higher WS's AND PER in both Regular season AND playoffs...

[fpliii]

And welcome to the ignore list. Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2010? It'd be nice if someone could led their TEAM in WS, PER, Postseason WS, PER, Finals WS, ANYTHING besides PPG and FGA. Kobe wasn't in the top 30 in RAPM in 2010. Just UGH.
I don't think there's a case to be made that Kobe was the best in the league in 2010 (though it was either the last season of his absolute prime IMO, or the first season post-prime, because of injuries), but the bolded is inaccurate. In prior-informed RAPM he was 10th in the league in 2010, and 4th in the league offensively:

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2010-rapm/

[Kblaze8855]

Don't give me this shit about being "honest" :oldlol: You're one of the biggest Bran stans here.

Give me the guy who put up 30/6/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs between 08 and 10, made 3 straight Finals appearances, won 2 titles, 2 FMVP's, etc. All of this against elite western competition.

- Averaged 34/8/7 on 52% shooting in the 2010 WCF

- Averaged 34/6/6 on 46% shooting in the 2009 WCF

- DESTROYED the defending champion Spurs in the 08 WCF, finished the series off in game 5 by leading an amazing comeback

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. This was Kobe's league between 08 and 10. Period. He also the best in 06 and 07. And no, my argument isn't solely just based on rings. He was just playing the best ball.

Except millions of people thought otherwise.

The idea that the answer to the best player in 09 and 10 was Kobe...and it wasnt a debate? Thats just ignoring reality.

I remember topics with people posting articles and quotes from Lakers saying Lebron was the best player in the league.

Its arguable who was #1. What isnt arguable...is that perfectly reasonable people were having the argument.

[guy]

Thats dumb.... what he did isn't what the player would do every time.

Under that same logic, 2006 Wade is GOD, because no team would lose a finals with 3rd-year Wade.... you gotta ask yourself what a guy can consistently do. 2006 Wade was amazing, but he won't consistently have that kind of a finals series... Neither will 2011 LeBron.. (He didn't have an agenda to sabotage anyone's FMVP.. you know that.)

That's terrible logic. Lebron was playing on probably the best team in the league and the stage was still too big for him. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have had the same issues on another team, probably a worse team.

Your comparison doesn't make sense. There's reasons to believe that Wade couldn't do what he did in 06 on any team, cause other teams just might not be good enough. For what reason should we think Lebron wouldn't have done the same thing in 2011 on any other team? If he wasn't confident enough with THAT team, what team should we expect him to be confident with?



You can't keep LeBron out of 2010 for "quitting", and then give Kobe 2006... Gotta stay consistent there.

Completely different scenario. Kobe quit with the game pretty much out of hand where it wouldn't have made a difference. Lebron quit with it tied 2-2. On top of that, when it comes to "best player" sometimes you have to speculate cause you don't know for sure how every player will react in every single situation. But Kobe's 06 team was a lot worse then Lebron's 10 team. I don't think Kobe on the 2010 Cavs gives up in that situation and thinks they're a lost cause. The 2010 Cavs were not that bad.

And by the way, he filled up the stat sheet in that game 6 vs the Celtics. But his body language and general attitude seemed completely off that game to what it normally was. And he shot the ball badly and turned the ball over a lot. It did still feel like he quit that game, but just the Cavs were playing their usual game plan of Lebron dominating the ball, and as a result he still ended up with some big numbers despite looking like he was just going through the motions.

[Kblaze8855]

First topic that popped up when I looked into it....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128784


Seems Magic had Lebron #1 in April 2009. But we have people saying....



No one was calling Lebron better than Kobe from 08-10. No one.

This isnt even revisionist history. This is...flat out lying or having amnesia.

Lebron vs Kobe...with huge portions of fans being on both sides? You cant pretend that didnt happen.

Tens of milions of people considered Lebron the best player in the NBA 08-10.

The Lebron or Kobe question was too widespread for anyone honest to act like it never happened those years.

Coaches, GMs, fans, and announcers all called Lebron #1 those years. And just as many(perhaps more) said Kobe. It was a good split.

[livinglegend]

That's terrible logic. Lebron was playing on probably the best team in the league and the stage was still too big for him. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have had the same issues on another team, probably a worse team.

Your comparison doesn't make sense. There's reasons to believe that Wade couldn't do what he did in 06 on any team, cause other teams just might not be good enough. For what reason should we think Lebron wouldn't have done the same thing in 2011 on any other team? If he wasn't confident enough with THAT team, what team should we expect him to be confident with?



Completely different scenario. Kobe quit with the game pretty much out of hand where it wouldn't have made a difference. Lebron quit with it tied 2-2. On top of that, when it comes to "best player" sometimes you have to speculate cause you don't know for sure how every player will react in every single situation. But Kobe's 06 team was a lot worse then Lebron's 10 team. I don't think Kobe on the 2010 Cavs gives up in that situation and thinks they're a lost cause. The 2010 Cavs were not that bad.

And by the way, he filled up the stat sheet in that game 6 vs the Celtics. But his body language and general attitude seemed completely off that game to what it normally was. And he shot the ball badly and turned the ball over a lot. It did still feel like he quit that game, but just the Cavs were playing their usual game plan of Lebron dominating the ball, and as a result he still ended up with some big numbers despite looking like he was just going through the motions.

You just lost all credibity!


It was nice reading you!

[ArbitraryWater]

That's terrible logic. Lebron was playing on probably the best team in the league and the stage was still too big for him. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have had the same issues on another team, probably a worse team.

Your comparison doesn't make sense. There's reasons to believe that Wade couldn't do what he did in 06 on any team, cause other teams just might not be good enough. For what reason should we think Lebron wouldn't have done the same thing in 2011 on any other team? If he wasn't confident enough with THAT team, what team should we expect him to be confident with?



Completely different scenario. Kobe quit with the game pretty much out of hand where it wouldn't have made a difference. Lebron quit with it tied 2-2. On top of that, when it comes to "best player" sometimes you have to speculate cause you don't know for sure how every player will react in every single situation. But Kobe's 06 team was a lot worse then Lebron's 10 team. I don't think Kobe on the 2010 Cavs gives up in that situation and thinks they're a lost cause. The 2010 Cavs were not that bad.

And by the way, he filled up the stat sheet in that game 6 vs the Celtics. But his body language and general attitude seemed completely off that game to what it normally was. And he shot the ball badly and turned the ball over a lot. It did still feel like he quit that game, but just the Cavs were playing their usual game plan of Lebron dominating the ball, and as a result he still ended up with some big numbers despite looking like he was just going through the motions.

Exactly... exactly my point with LeBron in 2011.

Kobe still has the best teammate in Odom, though... all-star caliber player, that helps. Lets not act like down 15 at half is some unreachable margin, against a Suns team that missed Stoudemire for the entire playoffs.

I don't know what you want, when you consider 27/19/10 with NINE TO's, 21 FGA and 3 steals, quitting.. Looks to me like he tried... perhaps too hard given his TO's.

And LeBron was seriously having a GOAT caliber season, up to that point...

30/9/7 on 50% with elite defense...

LeBron led his team to 61 wins, and as mentioned, the best record in the league.
61-21 - w/ LeBron: +11.5 w/o LeBron: -5.3 (16.8 on/off turnaround)

MVP, and the mentioned stretch at PG without Mo Williams... No one else touched him, be real.

I'm not gonna change the entire season ranking over 1-2 games, when LeBron had one of the GOAT seasons...

The most APG of any non-PG, ever.

[GrapeApe]

No, superstars don't play like shit for 45 minutes, and then make 1 shot. They play great the whole game on both hands of the floor!

You're missing the point. Even great players struggle from time to time. Chicago was hell bent on slowing Wade down, and like I said before, it worked to a degree. However, Wade made plays down the stretch to help his team win, and it was more than just game 5. Go rewatch the games or look at the game logs. Jrong detailed what happened and you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.

[gts]

It's all about W's on the big stage.... that's all that matters, stats are just noise used to strengthen weak arguments

[tpols]

Well, that's your opinion. For me, quitting in game 7 is worse.

It is my opinion.. Everything anyone ever says here is opinion.. but at least it's backed with some logic.

I don't know how you can justify quitting with a series just out of reach as being worse than quitting with the series all tied up. One scenario has infinitely better odds for winning than the other and thus less of a probability for throwing the towel in.


Like Kobe quit dropped to the floor in the 15th round while getting beat handily on the scorecard.. While Bron laid down in the 6th with the cards at a draw. You really want to say they're the same?

[SpecialQue]

Look, as much as I love shitting on Lebron, calling him overrated, saying that his accolades are nothing more than media-driven bullshit because they desperately want a new Jordan, saying that he didn't deserve a single one of his FMVPs OR MVPs, complaining about his flopping and attitude, saying he's a scumbag, and calling his fans the worst in sports history, I'll still admit that Lebron's a very good player and has been one of the top players in the game for a long, long time now.

[livinglegend]

You're missing the point. Even great players struggle from time to time. Chicago was hell bent on slowing Wade down, and like I said before, it worked to a degree. However, Wade made plays down the stretch to help his team win, and it was more than just game 5. Go rewatch the games or look at the game logs. Jrong detailed what happened and you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.

You re missing the point. The point is basketball is played 48 minutes. If you look at the 48 minutes stats, Lebron played better in the finals than Wade did in ECF.

[HOoopCityJones]

First topic that popped up when I looked into it....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128784


Seems Magic had Lebron #1 in April 2009. But we have people saying....




This isnt even revisionist history. This is...flat out lying or having amnesia.

Lebron vs Kobe...with huge portions of fans being on both sides? You cant pretend that didnt happen.

Tens of milions of people considered Lebron the best player in the NBA 08-10.

The Lebron or Kobe question was too widespread for anyone honest to act like it never happened those years.

Coaches, GMs, fans, and announcers all called Lebron #1 those years. And just as many(perhaps more) said Kobe. It was a good split.

Magic is the biggest flip flopper in the business. He called Kobe Top five and a better Laker than himself that same year. :lol

[SpecialQue]

Magic is the biggest flip flopper in the business. He called Kobe Top five and a better Laker than himself that same year. :lol

Magic Johnson was a genius at playing basketball, but like so many others, his current opinions on it aren't even worth listening to (see also: Shaq).

[livinglegend]

It is my opinion.. Everything anyone ever says here is opinion.. but at least it's backed with some logic.

I don't know how you can justify quitting with a series just out of reach as being worse than quitting with the series all tied up. One scenario has infinitely better odds for winning than the other.

It wasn't out of reach. It was a 15 pts lead, that's not out of reach. For me, quitting at the last minute is worse because you don't have the opportunity to redeem yourself afterward. Lebron had it in game 6, Kobe didn't.

[HOoopCityJones]

Magic Johnson was a genius at playing basketball, but like so many others, his current opinions on it aren't even worth listening to (see also: Shaq).

It's amazing that I find Chris Webber's opinion on most stuff concerning the NBA right now the most accurate. :confusedshrug:

Very underrated analyst.

[SpecialQue]

It's amazing that I find Chris Webber's opinion on most stuff concerning the NBA right now the most accurate. :confusedshrug:

Very underrated analyst.

He's really good. I'd give anything for him to replace Shaq, but that's not going to happen with all the money they've already paid him.

[BasedTom]

It's amazing that I find Chris Webber's opinion on most stuff concerning the NBA right now the most accurate. :confusedshrug:

Very underrated analyst.
agreed

[GrapeApe]

You re missing the point. The point is basketball is played 48 minutes. If you look at the 48 minutes stats, Lebron played better in the finals than Wade did in ECF.

No argument there. I'm a Heat fans so I couldn't care less who does what as long as they win, and they did.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2009 and 2010 was all about the Kobe v.s. LeBron talk from the general public. There was no definitive answer either way.

Let's not fool ourselves. Any basketball mind around then knows all fan bases were split.

Mamba was coming off his best individual seasons (2006 - 2008) but was finally winning as leader taking his team to back to back chips on the denouement of his career.

Meanwhile we saw LeBron's ascent to the greatest individual talent was overwhelming, winning back to back MVPs, and multiple 60+ win seasons with rather pedestrian talented teams.

Wade was the dark horse among the knowledgeable during that time period.

[Kblaze8855]

Magic is the biggest flip flopper in the business. He called Kobe Top five and a better Laker than himself that same year. :lol

It being true or not isnt the issue. I dont take issue with anyone having Kobe #1 from 08-10. He won MVP...then 65 games and a ring...then another ring. All while being...for the most part..the same guy he was in his high scoring losing days.

Kobe as the best...perfectly valid opinion...easily supported by the facts and watching him play. Fine.

Thing is....Lebron as #1? Argued by many...many respected people...on every level of basketball.

Which of them you pick? Up to you. Both have a valid case to be made.

And millions of people were making cases for both.

So you saying nobody had Lebron #1...is just a lie....or not having memory of those years. There is no other option.

I always felt if we could just wipe out the totally BS opinions...the inarguable...the rest is fine. I might not agree...but just dont treat me like an idiot.

And you telling me...nobody had Lebron #1 those years...is you flat out bullshitting me.

Cant we just keep it halfway honest?

Call them idiots...say you dont agree...whatever. Saying that many people didnt exist is you just not telling the truth.

[Kblaze8855]

2009 and 2010 was all about the Kobe v.s. LeBron talk from the general public. There was no definitive answer either way.

Let's not fool ourselves. Any basketball mind around then knows all fan bases were split.

Exactly.

How does someone type otherwise in a post about revisionist history?

There not being a major Kobe vs Lebron debate those years....thats the worst case of revisionist history ive ever seen.

Thats just pretending a truth we all saw...all were involved in...didnt happen.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Exactly.

How does someone type otherwise in a post about revisionist history?

There not being a major Kobe vs Lebron debate those years....thats the worst case of revisionist history ive ever seen.

Thats just pretending a truth we all saw...all were involved in...didnt happen.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_pYdh_L9c0/S_xfIkGFFCI/AAAAAAAAAvk/GS8F3ksHUi8/s400/slampresentskobelebronbig-horz.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0521/sn_kobe_lebron_puppets_300.jpg
http://clesportstalk.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/nba_g_kobe_lebron1_576.jpg

[DMAVS41]

You really want another lengthy back and forth on me meaning all aspects of basketball when you ask me who the best is?

Dirk...im gonna compare him to mid to late 80s Kareem.

Effective because you cant stop his shot. He can still do work. Drop 40 on Hakeem...carry you down the stretch of a close playoff game. Nobody is saying he cant.

But hes also getting 7 rebounds and not moving his feet on defense anymore.

So I cant put you over better...basketball players.

Kareem at 36-38 was something close to elite...as an offensive weapon. And he was savy enough with his veteran ways and tricks...to make some of the young guns look foolish. spin off an attempted blindside steal by a guard. Pump fake Hakeem out his shoes and lay it in.

Effective.

But you get 6 rebounds and cant get from one side of the lane to the other before a guard can lay it in....I have to start looking at the Jordans and so on...

All respect to the unstoppable hook/fadeaway. God knows it worked.

But the best player in basketball has to be more than that to me.

Id say Dirk was closer to it in 2005 than 2011. Lebron wasnt Lebron yet...Kobe off year. Shaq no longer the real Shaq. The "Dirk plays no defense" thing was already untrue. He was still rebounding...mobile. Really moved his feet on defense. Already unguardable. Team lost Nash, Toine, and Jamison...

Got better.

Id have given the 05 MVP to Dirk or Shaq even if neither was the best all around player.

Duncan and KG...all around...probably get the nod.

Of course not...because you won't address specific points.

What you don't seem to grasp was that Lebron had clear flaws in his game that allowed the 11 finals to happen. This notion about only 5 games isn't true...Lebron can't play off the ball...or at least he couldn't back then in any real way and also have a high impact.

This doesn't have to be about Dirk.

So this isn't some who had the best year thing...although it should matter what these guys actually do on the court. I just don't see 2011 Dirk being taken out of a series like that and having such little impact on the game. I think Lebron's inability to play optimally outside of "Lebron ball" is still a major weakness to his game...and you are seeing that right now on the Cavs.

Doesn't mean I don't agree with a lot of what you said above...I do...well said. I just think 11 Lebron especially had some weaknesses that were ripe for the picking and I don't see those same weaknesses in 11 Dirk.

[dunksby]

LeBron was the league's best player from 2009 to 2013, Durant took that place in 2014. Right now none of them have a claim to that tile though.

[Akhenaten]

He has been the best player in basketball for the last 6 seasons straight..

uh...no
not even hating on dude, but that's just factually incorrect.

[DirkNowitzki41]

still the best player today. if not, then its KD.

lets be real, whos better? steph, harden, westbrook? :oldlol: maybe they're having a better season so far, but they still arent better players.

[SamuraiSWISH]

These are IMO, and the few times definitive best player reared it's head. Some could be argued otherwise, I'm sure ... but these are mine. 2005, and 2011 had too many variable, or too many contenders to the throne due to contextual issues.

2014 - Durant, debatable LeBron
2013 - Definitive LeBron
2012 - Definitive LeBron
2011 -
2010 - LeBron, debatable Kobe
2009 - LeBron, debatable Wade / Kobe
2008 - Kobe, debatable CP3
2007 - Kobe, debatable Dirk
2006 - Definitive Kobe
2005 -
2004 - Definitive KG
2003 - Definitive Duncan
2002 - Shaq, debatable Duncan
2001 - Shaq, debatable Duncan / Kobe
2000 - Definitive Shaq
1999 - Shaq, debatable Karl Malone
1998 - MJ, debatable Shaq
1997 - MJ, debatable Karl Malone
1996 - Definitive MJ
1995 - Hakeem, debatable D. Robinson
1994 - Hakeem, debatable Pippen
1993 - MJ, debatable CB34
1992 - Definitive MJ
1991 - Definitive MJ
1990 - MJ, debatable CB34
1989 - MJ, debatable Magic
1988 - MJ, debatable Magic / Bird
1987 - Magic, debatable MJ / Bird

[Hey Yo]

I give Lebron best player in 09 but not 10. He quit on his team. I'd rather have Kobe even though he wasn't as good of an overall player just cause of that fact. I think of best player as who would I want leading my team for the season. With what happened to Lebron that year, I couldn't choose him over Kobe. It seemed like the years before Lebron didn't really have that mentality and had more confidence in his teammates and his ability to lead them. Maybe it was blindfully ignorant, but that made him a better player as a result. The funny thing is the 2010 Cavs was probably the best team he had ever had up until that point. Maybe it would be one thing if his team was just really bad, but they weren't at all. They weren't great, but they were good enough that you'd expect him to keep fighting and believe they have a chance.

So for me, its kind of weird. His "best player" years are kinda scattered. I'd give him the nod in 2009, 2012, and 2013. I'd give it to Kobe in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010. Really hard to choose for 2014 between Lebron and Durant.

As far as this year goes, he's clearly declined. Its kind of funny too, cause he gets a lot of credit for going back to Cleveland, but it looks like he's going to end up leaving his best years in Miami. With that said, he's still a great player, and maybe will end up still being the best player in the league by the end of the season. It is a testament to how great he was that 25/5/8 on 49% is his decline. Every player declines at some point.
You say James quit on his team in 2010 (I'm assuming you're referring to playoffs against Boston) and would rather have Kobe because of that.

Yet later on you say Kobe was the best 06,07,08 and 2010 even though he did the exact same thing you said LeBron did......quit on his team in 06 against the Suns in game 7.

Hypocritical don't ya think?

[SamuraiSWISH]

You say James quit on his team in 2010 (I'm assuming you're referring to playoffs against Boston) and would rather have Kobe because of that.

Yet later on you say Kobe was the best 06,07,08 and 2010 even though he did the exact same thing you said LeBron did......quit on his team in 06 against the Suns in game 7.

Hypocritical don't ya think?
No because the context is entirely different.

Kobe played decoy, and a perfect facilitating team game the first 4 games of the series to go up 3 to 1 on a #2 seed, with vastly inferior talent in a difficult conference ... up big time in a series they had no business even competing in.

They lost game 5 playing this way, with LA's talent surrounding KObe coming back down to earth and reality.

In game 6 in LA Kobe had to put up 50 including some stunning shots in an OT thriller and it still wasn't enough to put away the Suns.

Mamba dropped 20 something first half points in game 7. Even though they were still getting blown out Phil said try to involve everyone else. Kobe at this point given the lack of trust he had in his teammates inability to close out the Suns when they had a huge 3 to 1 lead, thought this was a foolish endeavor and spitefully didn't try the second half in a n obvious blow out.

Meanwhile LeBron quit MID SERIES after some really good performances (game 3 in Boston especially) on teammates that won 60+ games, were the #1 seed, and favorites to win the series. Kobe's 2006 Lakers were always underdogs either way. James Cavs were favorites. He didn't even try, so who knows what their potential could've been.

LeBron literally quit on his teammates, and home town. Gave up without even trying. Mid series. Checked out mentally for greener Miami pastures.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The devil is in the details, and the circumstances are entirely different.

Kobe quit because he was too stubborn, and competitive on an individual level.

LeBron quit for no reason, without even trying, gave up on his teammates mid series because he's a front runner, and a coward. He plays hard only when he knows victory is guaranteed.

[Hey Yo]

If James checked out and quit for greener pastures, then why would he bother using the energy the following game to put up 27-19-10 in a must win game 6?

[Real14]

http://i.imgur.com/9n60E.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

If James checked out and quit for greener pastures, then why would he bother using the energy the following game to put up 27-19-10 in a must win game 6?
Did you actually watch that game? Those numbers were about as hollow as they come.

[SouBeachTalents]

http://i.imgur.com/9n60E.gif

Was he looking at the Knicks record?

[livinglegend]

Did you actually watch that game? Those numbers were about as hollow as they come.
are you trying to convince us that Lebron didn't try to win game 6?



REALLY? :facepalm

[livinglegend]

Was he looking at the Knicks record?
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

are you trying to convince us that Lebron didn't try to win game 6?



REALLY? :facepalm
I'm not saying he was sabotaging games trying to lose. I'm saying he looked visibly disinterested. If you watched any game after the 3rd, you'd know this.

Yes, he still put up numbers ... but they lie. They didn't come at opportune or meaningful times. He had a TON of turnovers late in that series that were very uncharacteristic.

[Real14]

Was he looking at the Knicks record?
Are you supposed to be a heat fan?:confusedshrug: Why so salty??:oldlol:

[Real14]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
He just salty cuz I dissed his queen, Im not even mad. What a bitch:lol

[livinglegend]

I'm not saying he was sabotaging games trying to lose. I'm saying he looked visibly disinterested. If you watched any game after the 3rd, you'd know this.

Yes, he still put up numbers ... but they lie. They didn't come at opportune or meaningful times. He had a TON of turnovers late in that series that were very uncharacteristic.

I watched the game and he really wanted to win. You could see it during the timeouts. He was stressed. Yeah, he had a ton of turnovers, so what? Turnovers don't mean not trying. I could say the same thing about Rose in ECF 2011 then? He shot 6% against Lebron. He gave up! QUITTER!

[Real14]

I'm not saying he was sabotaging games trying to lose. I'm saying he looked visibly disinterested. If you watched any game after the 3rd, you'd know this.

Yes, he still put up numbers ... but they lie. They didn't come at opportune or meaningful times. He had a TON of turnovers late in that series that were very uncharacteristic.

That ether.:applause: Bron stans will never admit this:facepalm

[Hey Yo]

Did you actually watch that game? Those numbers were about as hollow as they come.
Did you???

Translation:

I'm a ****in' dope and don't know what I'm talking about when referring to that series.

:lol

[livinglegend]

He just salty cuz I dissed his queen, Im not even mad. What a bitch:lol

I get you why you are not mad. You are used to irrelevancy.

Go watch old Knicks videos to feel better. You ll gave to go all the way to the 90s to find a good Knicks team. Go LUCK!

[livinglegend]

Did you???

Translation:

I'm a ****in' dope and don't know what I'm talking about when referring to that series.

:lol

All their arguments are speculations, no facts. Numbers show that he tried to win and couldn't because the Celtics were simply the better team.

[Real14]

I get you why you are not mad. You are used to irrelevancy.

Go watch old Knicks videos to feel better. You ll gave to go all the way to the 90s to find a good Knicks team. Go LUCK!
You mean 2013 right?:rolleyes: get your facts right before you start swinging bro:oldlol:

[livinglegend]

You mean 2013 right?:rolleyes: get your facts right before you start swinging bro:oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


It was nice conversing with you.


Next!

[ArbitraryWater]

These are IMO, and the few times definitive best player reared it's head. Some could be argued otherwise, I'm sure ... but these are mine. 2005, and 2011 had too many variable, or too many contenders to the throne due to contextual issues.

2014 - Durant, debatable LeBron
2013 - Definitive LeBron
2012 - Definitive LeBron
2011 -
2010 - LeBron, debatable Kobe
2009 - LeBron, debatable Wade / Kobe
2008 - Kobe, debatable CP3
2007 - Kobe, debatable Dirk
2006 - Definitive Kobe
2005 -
2004 - Definitive KG
2003 - Definitive Duncan
2002 - Shaq, debatable Duncan
2001 - Shaq, debatable Duncan / Kobe
2000 - Definitive Shaq
1999 - Shaq, debatable Karl Malone
1998 - MJ, debatable Shaq
1997 - MJ, debatable Karl Malone
1996 - Definitive MJ
1995 - Hakeem, debatable D. Robinson
1994 - Hakeem, debatable Pippen
1993 - MJ, debatable CB34
1992 - Definitive MJ
1991 - Definitive MJ
1990 - MJ, debatable CB34
1989 - MJ, debatable Magic
1988 - MJ, debatable Magic / Bird
1987 - Magic, debatable MJ / Bird


I see you FINALLY changed your stance on 2001 :lol :cheers:

You used to have Iverson > Shaq, you know.. (reading older posts from arguments with ShaqAttack)

I have a hard time with 2006/2007, anyone can be argued from Kobe-Dirk-LeBron-Wade... Some also give Duncan a shout.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


It was nice conversing with you.


Next!

Why are you talking to Fresh Kid? Dude spammed all over a thread that had some nice arguments/posts going.

[3ball]

These are IMO, and the few times definitive best player reared it's head. Some could be argued otherwise, I'm sure ... but these are mine. 2005, and 2011 had too many variable, or too many contenders to the throne due to contextual issues.

2014 - Durant, debatable LeBron
2013 - Definitive LeBron
2012 - Definitive LeBron
2011 -
2010 - LeBron, debatable Kobe
2009 - LeBron, debatable Wade / Kobe
2008 - Kobe, debatable CP3
2007 - Kobe, debatable Dirk
2006 - Definitive Kobe
2005 -
2004 - Definitive KG
2003 - Definitive Duncan
2002 - Shaq, debatable Duncan
2001 - Shaq, debatable Duncan / Kobe
2000 - Definitive Shaq
1999 - Shaq, debatable Karl Malone
1998 - MJ, debatable Shaq
1997 - MJ, debatable Karl Malone
1996 - Definitive MJ
1995 - Hakeem, debatable D. Robinson
1994 - Hakeem, debatable Pippen
1993 - MJ, debatable CB34
1992 - Definitive MJ
1991 - Definitive MJ
1990 - MJ, debatable CB34
1989 - MJ, debatable Magic
1988 - MJ, debatable Magic / Bird
1987 - Magic, debatable MJ / Bird
so jordan has 9 years where he is the best according to your list... lebron only 4.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I see you FINALLY changed your stance on 2001 :lol :cheers:
I never said Iverson was better or more impactful player than Shaq, Duncan, or Kobe. I said he had a better case for MVP due to contextual reasons. Much like Derrick Rose in 2011. And I absolutely stand by that ... I like Iverson more than Shaq. Iverson deserved the MVP more. Shaq was playing with another top five, arguable top three player. Cancel each other's MVP votes out. Just like Bron / Wade in 2011, and their near identical stats and impact.

[rlsmooth775]

Lebron has been the best player since 2005

[3ball]

I don't think people realize he is putting up 25/8 at a 50% clip

If Mike put that up after his first retirement


First of all, lebron is shooting 48.8%, not 50% - this small difference is important when comparing to Jordan.

the stats show that at no point in jordan's bulls career would 25 ppg have been acceptable or in line with his standard.

Jordan averaged 30.4 ppg on 49.6% shooting in 1996... so 25.0 ppg would have been a massive 5 point drop-off.

in 1997, Jordan averaged 29.6 ppg on 48.6% shooting.... again, 25ppg would be a massive 5 point drop-off.

in 1998 at 35 years old, he averaged 28.7 on 46.5% shooting... so 25ppg on 48.8% would still be a drop-off.

so stop twisting the facts - it's a fact that Jordan's numbers at 33-35 years old, are better than Lebron's are this season at 29.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron led a mediocre Cavalier team to 66 wins and the best record in the league.
66-16 - w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2 on/off turnaround)

Won the MVP, led the league in PER, Win-Shares, etc.

LeBron put up 35/9/7 on 51% for an entire playoff run that went 3 rounds deep.... with 39/8/8 in the ECF, three 40+ point games, 37-point triple double, game winner....

On a per-minute basis, James' 87.9% individual win percentage (the estimate of how often James and 4 average players would win) BLOWS AWAY any other performance since the merger.

This is his playoff run:

He had games of:

38/8/7 on 65%, 29/13/6 on 50%, 25/11/9 on 47%, 36/13/8, 34/10 on 60%, 47/12/8 on 60%, 49/6/8 on 67%, 35 on 52% while hitting the game winning buzzer beating 3, 41/7/9, 44/12/7, 37/14/12....

Those are 11 of the 14 games he played....

Kobe was not better... and he wouldn't be either in 2010, realistically.

During 2010 James took similar responsibilities for 1 month from from January 19th to February 18th due to an injury to Mo Williams.

In 13 games as PG with the absence of Mo Williams he averaged:

31.7 points per game, 10.8 assists per game, 7.3 rpg
Cavaliers Record: 12-1

Notable Games (during the 13-game stretch):
28 points, 9 rebounds, 11 assists vs. Toronto Raptors
37 points, 9 assists vs. Los Angeles Lakers
37 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
32 points, 9 rebounds, 14 assists vs. Miami Heat
22 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Los Angeles Clippers
22 points, 6 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Memphis Grizzlies
36 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists vs. Miami Heat
47 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists vs. New York Knicks
32 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Orlando Magic
43 points, 13 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Denver Nuggets

His averages: 31.7ppg 7.3rpg 10.8apg 1.8spg 1.2bpg (3.7 TOPG) on 48/31/76

LeBron got BETTER.... MORE complete, steadier jumpshot, better defensively, better playmaker, more efficient, while MAINTAINING his athleticism..

In 2010? MAGIC32 himself said Kobe exited his prime.... Gasol had higher WS's AND PER in both Regular season AND playoffs...


Heavincent?

I'd like to specifically hear how Kobe was better in 2009.. Even 2010, but its easier to argue since you can harp on Bron's game 5.


still the best player today. if not, then its KD.

lets be real, whos better? steph, harden, westbrook? :oldlol: maybe they're having a better season so far, but they still arent better players.

probably.. No one has taken it from him.

I see people have said its KD in 2014, but the torch wasn't passed, at all....

There's a reason why all major media outlets, such as ESPN, Sports Illustrated, had LeBron FIRST and Durant SECOND as projections for this year (based off last year)... The general consensus was (is) LeBron.

And in ESPN's case, they explained their ranking by saying excluding the injury time, KD would still be second.

[mehyaM24]

im not sure lebron has a case for GOAT (in terms of accolades) IF the cavs fail to win a title this season. he still has GOAT level talent, but it seems as though this team is not meshing accordingly, and by the time they figure it out, teams like OKC, chicago, and dallas will have already superseded everyone.

but yes - lebron still has a shot to dethrone kareem AND russell. i believe jordan will be an easy target because of the all around level of play lebron brings to the table (helps that jordan's own teammate, and leader of the bulls, scottie pippen, thinks lebron is already better). should be interesting to watch, regardless.

[Real14]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


It was nice conversing with you.


Next!

They won 54 games, 2nd place in the east, division champs, whupped the cheat by 20 points in 2 games each, are you serious or delirious ?:biggums:

[Real14]

Lebron has been the best player since 2005
REPORTED.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron hasn't had case for GOAT since he took his cowardly self to Miami in an attempt to win more easily.

Context, and narrative plays a part in GOAT talk. It's never been just about winning, it's how you win.

His 2011 Finals quit job put the nail in the coffin. It will only get extra nails in the coffin this year, along with dirt on the casket with another cowardly roster upgrade switcheroo and no trophy at the end of the season.

[russwest0]

He was. A major f*ck up over 5 games doesn't change that.

So how was he the best in 2013/2014?

[Real14]

LeBron hasn't had case for GOAT since he took his cowardly self to Miami in an attempt to win more easily.

Context, and narrative plays a part in GOAT talk. It's never been just about winning, it's how you win.

His 2011 Finals quit job put the nail in the coffin. It will only get extra nails in the coffin this year, along with dirt on the casket with another cowardly roster upgrade switcheroo and no trophy at the end of the season.

The other thing that I don't get is why they still call this niguh king?:biggums: after LeCramping and LeQuiting in 2014 and they still call him king??:biggums: :biggums: I don't get it:facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron hasn't had case for GOAT since he took his cowardly self to Miami in an attempt to win more easily.

Context, and narrative plays a part in GOAT talk. It's never been just about winning, it's how you win.

His 2011 Finals quit job put the nail in the coffin. It will only get extra nails in the coffin this year, along with dirt on the casket with another cowardly roster upgrade switcheroo and no trophy at the end of the season.

This, no one in the top 10 all time cost their team a series/championship more than LeBron did in the 2011 Finals

[ArbitraryWater]

If LeBron wanted to become GOAT, he should have won in 2011, won in 2013 in the SAME DOMINANT FASHION as he did in 2012 (but he didnt have any dominant stats in the 1R&ECSF), and somehow pull a title out of the ass in 2014... That ship has sailed, especially considering it doesn't look like he will win a title with this Cavaliers team, unless they make a change at C... Get a defensive big man.

But 6 straight years holding a lock on the NBA's ownership is enough for top 5, and its not like he's out of the picture right now... This season is still up for grabs.

[rlsmooth775]

REPORTED.

Lebron has been the best player since 2005 Kobe never had a case over Lebron in this time

[rlsmooth775]

This, no one in the top 10 all time cost their team a series/championship more than LeBron did in the 2011 Finals

Kobe in 2004

[Real14]

This, no one in the top 10 all time cost their team a series/championship more than LeBron did in the 2011 Finals

Absolutely, and 2014 finals made it even worse.

[guy]

You just lost all credibity!


It was nice reading you!

I guess most people that watched that game don't have credibility either cause that was the overall sentiment after that game. Its easy to look at the box score 4 years later and conclude "oh look at his numbers, he was clearly trying his best." But right after that game, no one gave a shit about his numbers. He looked totally disinterested and completely deflated, which rubbed off on his teammates as a result. Just because he put up numbers doesn't change that. If the team still goes with the normal game plan, which was making Lebron the focal point of the offense, he can still put up numbers.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. Its revisionist history that he wasn't playing like he had one foot out the door already. Its the same thing with Kobe's game 7 vs Boston. He had a terrible game, and almost no one thought he had a good game after it actually happened. Revisionist history has turned it into this admirable game cause he had 14 rebounds though.

[Real14]

Lebron has been the best player since 2005 Kobe never had a case over Lebron in this time
:coleman:

[rlsmooth775]

Someone tell me what argument Kobe had over Lebron from 2005 -2010 Lebron had better all around stats and advance stats show Lebron has been the superior defender in this period

[Real14]

bRON STANS taking more Ls as they get ethered in this thread like crazy:applause: :oldlol:

[russwest0]

LeBron stans: "a bad playoffs doesn't mean LeBron wasn't the best in 2011."

So who was best in 2013/2014?

"LeBron."

:oldlol: :facepalm

[rlsmooth775]

:coleman:
Prove me wrong marshmelo fan

[rlsmooth775]

LeBron stans: "a bad playoffs doesn't mean LeBron wasn't the best in 2011."

So who was best in 2013/2014?

"LeBron."

:oldlol: :facepalm

Lebron was he always has the best stats all around regular season playoffs

[Real14]

Prove me wrong marshmelo fan
First of all Im a knick fan first, and why waste my time man? You actually think kobe in 2004 finals did worst than LeBron in 2011 finals:rolleyes: :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

I guess most people that watched that game don't have credibility either cause that was the overall sentiment after that game. Its easy to look at the box score 4 years later and conclude "oh look at his numbers, he was clearly trying his best." But right after that game, no one gave a shit about his numbers. He looked totally disinterested and completely deflated, which rubbed off on his teammates as a result. Just because he put up numbers doesn't change that. If the team still goes with the normal game plan, which was making Lebron the focal point of the offense, he can still put up numbers.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. Its revisionist history that he wasn't playing like he had one foot out the door already. Its the same thing with Kobe's game 7 vs Boston. He had a terrible game, and almost no one thought he had a good game after it actually happened. Revisionist history has turned it into this admirable game cause he had 14 rebounds though.


While I think Lebron takes a bit too much blame for that game 6 performance against the Celtics in 10...I do agree with your sentiment about revisionist history.

If the Lakers had not won that game 7...Kobe would have been killed...and rightfully so. Revisionist history has turned that shit bag of a game into something it never was.

And...just looking at Lebron's stats against the Celtics turns that game into something it was not.

That is what is hard with Lebron. He's not as good as his stats normally though. His style of play racks up stats like no other in history essentially...how could it not....he always has the ball and either shoots or passes at the end of the clock. And he steals defensive rebounds.

Context is needed on some of this shit.

[rlsmooth775]

First of all Im a knick fan first, and why waste my time man? You actually think kobe in 2004 finals did worst than LeBron in 2011 finals:rolleyes: :facepalm

He did kobe was aggressive and still failed miserably lost in 5 games shot horrible from the field shut off shaq in the series.

[ArbitraryWater]

this was a nice thread until the trolls arrived..

[HurricaneKid]

This, no one in the top 10 all time cost their team a series/championship more than LeBron did in the 2011 Finals

Kobe not in top 10? Because 2004...

[Real14]

this was a nice thread until the trolls arrived..

Niguh you are a troll:coleman:

[Real14]

Kobe not in top 10? Because 2004...
Stop just stop:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

This, no one in the top 10 all time cost their team a series/championship more than LeBron did in the 2011 Finals
It's not even exclusively that either ... I mean we'll see how the rest of this season plays out.

But if you're heralded as the best player in the league, top ten all-time, possible top 5 / GOAT talk ... after just landing a significant roster upgrade that you cowardly bailed on the last one to form. There is no way in possibly one of the weakest conferences of all-time you should be sitting on a 18-12 record.

A team takes on the characteristics of their leader. LeBron is constantly pouting when the going gets tough. Not antics or mannerisms of a great, championship, battle hardened leader.

I'm starting to wonder if it really was Wade who was the leader of those Heat teams. The emotional, or mental rock the team leaned on when the going got tough the way the Bulls did on Jordan, when Pippen's fragility and nice guy antics or lack of killer ability wore off in critical or difficult situations.

LeBron still has a shot for top five all-time, definitely. But the stark regression this year that is disguised by decent numbers ... the not as much impact as his numbers would suggest playing with such talented teammates, and putting up a very pedestrian record in a weak conference? Plus a lineage of expectations, and failures.

2010 ECSF Quit Job
2010 Free Agency Roster Upgrade
2011 Finals Quit Job
2014 Finals Decimation
2014 Free Agency Roster Upgrade

Plus whatever failure ultimately happens or besets the hyped up 2015 Cleveland Cavaliers.

And even a near 2013 Finals embarrassment. He's supremely talented, easily top five ever in that regard. But he disappoints a lot. And I think that lends itself to his lack of mental toughness, heart, and will power. The intangibles of the game.

The GOAT talks have been done. That convo is exclusively between MJ - Russell. With odds, and majority vote leaning quite favorably to Jordan.

[HurricaneKid]

First of all Im a knick fan first, and why waste my time man? You actually think kobe in 2004 finals did worst than LeBron in 2011 finals:rolleyes: :facepalm

Ugh. Kobe in 04 had a viable case for FMVP. For the Pistons. LeBron was 1 reb shy of leading his team in Asst, Reb, Stl, while shooting 48% from the field. Kobe froze out the most dominant player in the game who shot 63% for the series so he could chuck fallaway 3s on his way to shooting 38%.

If anyone in the world thinks Kobe in 04 wasn't worse than LBJ in 11 doesn't know the game, or is a stan. One or the other.

[ArbitraryWater]

GOAT is EXCLUSIVELY between Jordan / Kareem... Comparing Russell to MJ, IMO, is a bit disrespectful.

[Hey Yo]

This, no one in the top 10 all time cost their team a series/championship more than LeBron did in the 2011 Finals
1984 "Tragic" Johnson.

"He inexplicably dribbled out the clock when Game 2 was tied and the Lakers lost in overtime.

He committed a costly turnover that sent Game 4 to overtime and missed two free throws that would've tied the score.

Somehow, the Lakers still made it to Game 7...where Johnson lost the ball with just under a minute remaining and sealed a title for the Celtics".

[Droid101]

Ugh. Kobe in 04 had a viable case for FMVP. For the Pistons. LeBron was 1 reb shy of leading his team in Asst, Reb, Stl, while shooting 48% from the field. Kobe froze out the most dominant player in the game who shot 63% for the series so he could chuck fallaway 3s on his way to shooting 38%.

If anyone in the world thinks Kobe in 04 wasn't worse than LBJ in 11 doesn't know the game, or is a stan. One or the other.
"Froze out." Dude, go watch the full series. The Lakers ran into a brick wall. Kobe took so many bad shots because they just couldn't get the ball down low to Shaq. The Pistons were too big, too long, and too good defensively.

[ArbitraryWater]

1981 Bird, glossed over because it came in victory... but guy had back-to-back 8 point games, followed by a 12 pointer... 15/15/7 on 42% for the series..

Benefits of the more stacked team.

[Myth]

1984 "Tragic" Johnson.

"He inexplicably dribbled out the clock when Game 2 was tied and the Lakers lost in overtime.

He committed a costly turnover that sent Game 4 to overtime and missed two free throws that would've tied the score.

Somehow, the Lakers still made it to Game 7...where Johnson lost the ball with just under a minute remaining and sealed a title for the Celtics".

As bad as that is, 2 plays in a 7 game series in which he averaged 18, 7.7, 13.6, 2, and 0.9 off 56% shooting is nowhere near 17.8, 7.2, 6.8, 1.7, and 0.5 off 47.8% shooting when you are supposed to be the best player on your team.

[Magic 32]

"Froze out." Dude, go watch the full series. The Lakers ran into a brick wall. Kobe took so many bad shots because they just couldn't get the ball down low to Shaq. The Pistons were too big, too long, and too good defensively.

This.

And Kobe shot bad the entire playoffs. I wonder why.

[Droid101]

Honestly, the "Froze out" talk is as stupid as those idiots who say Wade froze out LeBron in the 2011 Finals.

[SamuraiSWISH]

"Froze out." Dude, go watch the full series. The Lakers ran into a brick wall. Kobe took so many bad shots because they just couldn't get the ball down low to Shaq. The Pistons were too big, too long, and too good defensively.
You honestly don't think they could even make more entry passes to Shaq?

:oldlol:

That's your excuse? Really? Great defense absolutely, but so great the Lakers could even dump it down to Shaq who statisitically was MURDERING Ben Wallace? NBA players?

Um, ok. Talk about the most ridiculous of deflection. Clearly you weren't actually watching the NBA in 2004.

You're really going to act like Kobe's obvious selfish gunning, and what looked like agenda to get the monkey off his back to win Finals MVP didn't play a large factor?

Obviously other things did like GP's useless skills in the triangle. Karl being hurt. Billups ballin out of his mind for his standards on that stage.

But Kobe absolutely hurt that team the way he was playing. He wanted to score, that's it, plain and simple. He foolishly wanted to do so by settling for heroic, difficult looking jumpers with long armed Tayshaun Prince drapped all over him.

Instead of what Wade would do the very next year ... and abuse that team from the inside - out by attacking their smaller stature inside and beating the long armed jumper contesting defenders like Prince off the dribble.

Wade slashed, and cut that team to pieces like a fearless professional butcher with his driving game, and pull mid range jumper. And he didn't have near the refinement by that point Kobe had skill wise. He took the correct basketball approach.

[HurricaneKid]

"Froze out." Dude, go watch the full series. The Lakers ran into a brick wall. Kobe took so many bad shots because they just couldn't get the ball down low to Shaq. The Pistons were too big, too long, and too good defensively.

I watched that series. Every second. It was laughable.

Defense is easy when you only need to defend one player. 2014 Kobe looks shockingly similar to 2004 Finals Kobe. And doing that on the biggest stage when Prime Shaq is down low is unconscionable.

[ArbitraryWater]

Man......... making excuses for Kobe's 2004 finals performance now? REALLY?

Epitome of sabotaging a finals.... Right in the middle of their fued, day in day out one complained about each other in the front office, and you want to tell me Kobe wanted to get the ball to Shaq?

Shaq with 34/11 on 13-16, meanwhile Kobe takes 27 FGA, 10-27, L....

History repeats in game 4... Shaq goes for 36/19, Kobe again inexplicably outshoots him, going 8-25.....

Guess Kobe forgot about #34 after game 2, he was pretty good.

How can the team lose, when your big man, the MDE, scores 36 points and grabs 20 rebounds...

Like, how much '****ing up', must his sidekick do, to STILL lose that game?..

Edit:

12 year Shaq dominated the same team peak-prime Duncan struggled against..

[Magic 32]

Defense is easy when you only need to defend one player. 2014 Kobe looks shockingly similar to 2004 Finals Kobe. And doing that on the biggest stage when Prime Shaq is down low is unconscionable.

How many points did Shaq score when Kobe took 13 shots in game 3?

[guy]

Exactly... exactly my point with LeBron in 2011.

Okay, and I guess maybe you come to a different conclusion when you speculate about Lebron in 2011. But for me, I don't see a good enough reason to come to a different conclusion. To me, I don't see any reason why Lebron wouldn't have shrunk the way he did if he was on a different team. If he's playing like he's afraid to lose with THAT team, why would he not do the same with a worse team? And you know maybe the fact that the Heat were pretty clear favorites in the Finals put a lot more pressure on Lebron to win, and if he was on a worse team that barely had any shot of winning he would've played his normal game. But if that's the case, it tells me, at least for that version of Lebron, that he can't handle the pressure and in that stage he can only play his normal game on an underdog that has little chance of winning a title, which is kind of pointless if you want to build a championship team around that guy.



Kobe still has the best teammate in Odom, though... all-star caliber player, that helps. Lets not act like down 15 at half is some unreachable margin, against a Suns team that missed Stoudemire for the entire playoffs.

Well the game isn't played on 2 on 2. The 2010 Cavs were clearly better then the 2006 Lakers.

I don't know when Kobe exactly quit. But early in the 2nd half with only 3 minutes gone by, the Suns lead shot up to 21. Lets not forget the Suns won the last 2 games and they were home. All the momentum was on their side.

I'm not excusing Kobe. Shit, I hate on Kobe a lot on this board and on that game as well, but I just see a significant difference between the 2. Lebron was on a better team with championship aspirations and the series was tied 2-2 and the Cavs had HCA and he quit. Kobe was on the road with a team that no one expected to accomplish much in game 7 down 15 at the half and 21 a few minutes later. Very different situations. It doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't be criticized for that. But Kobe quitting when he did just wasn't as bad as Lebron quitting when he did. And unlike Lebron in 2010 or 2011, I really don't see Kobe doing something like that if he was in those situations, so it doesn't affect my opinion about him when it comes to who would I want to build a championship team around for that season, which is who I consider the "best player."




I don't know what you want, when you consider 27/19/10 with NINE TO's, 21 FGA and 3 steals, quitting.. Looks to me like he tried... perhaps too hard given his TO's.

And LeBron was seriously having a GOAT caliber season, up to that point...

30/9/7 on 50% with elite defense...

LeBron led his team to 61 wins, and as mentioned, the best record in the league.
61-21 - w/ LeBron: +11.5 w/o LeBron: -5.3 (16.8 on/off turnaround)

MVP, and the mentioned stretch at PG without Mo Williams... No one else touched him, be real.

I'm not gonna change the entire season ranking over 1-2 games, when LeBron had one of the GOAT seasons...

The most APG of any non-PG, ever.

Yes, he had a great regular season. Shit, he clearly was the best player in the league during the regular season. I don't see the argument against that. But I'm going to put a lot more weight on the playoffs then the regular season. I don't understand how someone can't.

Like I said, his production that game doesn't tell the whole story. He also had a triple double in one of those 2011 Finals games. That didn't mean he had a good game and there wasn't reason to question his effort.

[Droid101]

You guys have clearly not watched that series in a very long time, it shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dEqJWA5b8g

Watch every Kobe possession in that (it's from game 3). Shaq isn't even trying to get in position. Ben Wallace and Rasheed were so good at forcing Shaq into bad positions so that he couldn't even receive a pass!

Nobody is saying Kobe played well.... he played like shit. But to think that he purposefully tried to lose by not getting Shaq the ball... that's as idiotic as thinking Wade froze out LeBron in 2011. Nobody tries to lose, especially in the finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay, and I guess maybe you come to a different conclusion when you speculate about Lebron in 2011. But for me, I don't see a good enough reason to come to a different conclusion. To me, I don't see any reason why Lebron wouldn't have shrunk the way he did if he was on a different team. If he's playing like he's afraid to lose with THAT team, why would he not do the same with a worse team? And you know maybe the fact that the Heat were pretty clear favorites in the Finals put a lot more pressure on Lebron to win, and if he was on a worse team that barely had any shot of winning he would've played his normal game. But if that's the case, it tells me, at least for that version of Lebron, that he can't handle the pressure and in that stage he can only play his normal game on an underdog that has little chance of winning a title, which is kind of pointless if you want to build a championship team around that guy.



Well the game isn't played on 2 on 2. The 2010 Cavs were clearly better then the 2006 Lakers.

I don't know when Kobe exactly quit. But early in the 2nd half with only 3 minutes gone by, the Suns lead shot up to 21. Lets not forget the Suns won the last 2 games and they were home. All the momentum was on their side.

I'm not excusing Kobe. Shit, I hate on Kobe a lot on this board and on that game as well, but I just see a significant difference between the 2. Lebron was on a better team with championship aspirations and the series was tied 2-2 and the Cavs had HCA and he quit. Kobe was on the road with a team that no one expected to accomplish much in game 7 down 15 at the half and 21 a few minutes later. Very different situations. It doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't be criticized for that. But Kobe quitting when he did just wasn't as bad as Lebron quitting when he did. And unlike Lebron in 2010 or 2011, I really don't see Kobe doing something like that if he was in those situations, so it doesn't affect my opinion about him when it comes to who would I want to build a championship team around for that season, which is who I consider the "best player."




Yes, he had a great regular season. Shit, he clearly was the best player in the league during the regular season. I don't see the argument against that. But I'm going to put a lot more weight on the playoffs then the regular season. I don't understand how someone can't.

Like I said, his production that game doesn't tell the whole story. He also had a triple double in one of those 2011 Finals games. That didn't mean he had a good game and there wasn't reason to question his effort.

I can totally understand where you're coming from.. I really like how the majority of this thread is good conversation.

When we talk about Kobe's 2006 G7... here's the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8IGYkH--QI

During the game the commentators said Kobe MUST take this game over now... TRY.. He didn't. Afterwards Barkley went on the air to say Kobe quit, and even defended that statement when Kobe came on the show weeks later.

LeBron was definitely at his most hated in 2011, I mean, the guy was totally blackmailed in the DPOTY voting, had his best defensive season and barely received consideration... Finished 9th. Far from media darling.. they were coming down on him, like most fans were. Part due to his team changing, and the fact it was with a guy like Dwyane Wade... I don't see him going down that way on another team, where he still has to carry the burden. The Heat almost won that way, Wade's way.

I honestly just see their basketball level way too far apart in 2010 to give anyone else the edge over LeBron for a 1-2 game fallout.

LeBron was STILL on his '09 ways until game 4... Had 2 triple doubles, and other games of 40/8/8, 37/12/11 and 19/10/9... 32/9/7 on 56% up to game 4... equally dominant. Just a much better player to give anyone the advantage for LeBron losing against a superior team, for me.

[guy]

These are IMO, and the few times definitive best player reared it's head. Some could be argued otherwise, I'm sure ... but these are mine. 2005, and 2011 had too many variable, or too many contenders to the throne due to contextual issues.

2014 - Durant, debatable LeBron
2013 - Definitive LeBron
2012 - Definitive LeBron
2011 -
2010 - LeBron, debatable Kobe
2009 - LeBron, debatable Wade / Kobe
2008 - Kobe, debatable CP3
2007 - Kobe, debatable Dirk
2006 - Definitive Kobe
2005 -
2004 - Definitive KG
2003 - Definitive Duncan
2002 - Shaq, debatable Duncan
2001 - Shaq, debatable Duncan / Kobe
2000 - Definitive Shaq
1999 - Shaq, debatable Karl Malone
1998 - MJ, debatable Shaq
1997 - MJ, debatable Karl Malone
1996 - Definitive MJ
1995 - Hakeem, debatable D. Robinson
1994 - Hakeem, debatable Pippen
1993 - MJ, debatable CB34
1992 - Definitive MJ
1991 - Definitive MJ
1990 - MJ, debatable CB34
1989 - MJ, debatable Magic
1988 - MJ, debatable Magic / Bird
1987 - Magic, debatable MJ / Bird

While I agree with pretty much your whole list, I really don't see how 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2001 are even close to debatable.

[T_L_P]

Looks about right, but Shaq I feel was better for longer than that. I'm not sure Duncan was ever the best player in basketball, and that isn't a bad thing, it just happened to coincide with someone who was far more physically capable and imposing. You have to remember Shaq almost won, and probably should have won the MVP in 2005. In my opinion, he still was the best player, even then.

Seems unlikely since he won MVP and Finals MVP in the same season, with a team not expected to a win a title (RC still said we were in the midst of rebuilding and the GM survey had the Lakers, Mavs and maybe even the Kings as title favourites), whilst also having a top 5 Playoff run (at worst top 10) in NBA history.

He was also clearly the best player in the 02 Regular Season. Averaged 28/15/4/4 in the Playoffs and made it to the WCSF with the worst team of his career (TOSB Porter and TOSB Ferry were getting good minutes, Robinson missed Playoff games due to injury), though I do still think Shaq was the best player that year.

[SamuraiSWISH]

While I agree with pretty much your whole list, I really don't see how 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2001 are even close to debatable.
If I said the Jordan ones were non-debatable ... I would lose the credibility of my opinion. I think MJ was the best player in the league from '88 - '98. He should have more than 5x MVPs. 1994 might be definitive. But 1995 D-Rob def. had a case before getting abused in the playoffs.

[ArbitraryWater]

Seems unlikely since he won MVP and Finals MVP in the same season, with a team not expected to a win a title (RC still said we were in the midst of rebuilding and the GM survey had the Lakers, Mavs and maybe even the Kings as title favourites), whilst also having a top 5 Playoff run (at worst top 10) in NBA history.

He was also clearly the best player in the 02 Regular Season. Averaged 28/15/4/4 in the Playoffs and made it to the WCSF with the worst team of his career (TOSB Porter and TOSB Ferry were getting good minutes, Robinson missed Playoff games due to injury), though I do still think Shaq was the best player that year.

Haha I knew you'd go back to that post.. I can understand it, though... Duncan is a consensus for 2003.. if not, undisputed.

But honestly, 2004 = KG? Maybe KG/Timmy?

2005 is wide open for me... I'm not trying to hate on Duncan here...

But he had a poor series pretty much every year from 2001-2005, except for 2003, where he was GOAT material (like you said, top 5 ALL-TIME run). But every other season of his just doesn't stack up with the prime years of other Top 10 ATG's, for me. Also why 2003 may be Duncan's only year as best player.

[guy]

I can totally understand where you're coming from.. I really like how the majority of this thread is good conversation.

When we talk about Kobe's 2006 G7... here's the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8IGYkH--QI

During the game the commentators said Kobe MUST take this game over now... TRY.. He didn't. Afterwards Barkley went on the air to say Kobe quit, and even defended that statement when Kobe came on the show weeks later.

LeBron was definitely at his most hated in 2011, I mean, the guy was totally blackmailed in the DPOTY voting, had his best defensive season and barely received consideration... Finished 9th. Far from media darling.. they were coming down on him, like most fans were. Part due to his team changing, and the fact it was with a guy like Dwyane Wade... I don't see him going down that way on another team, where he still has to carry the burden. The Heat almost won that way, Wade's way.

I honestly just see their basketball level way too far apart in 2010 to give anyone else the edge over LeBron for a 1-2 game fallout.

LeBron was STILL on his '09 ways until game 4... Had 2 triple doubles, and other games of 40/8/8, 37/12/11 and 19/10/9... 32/9/7 on 56% up to game 4... equally dominant. Just a much better player to give anyone the advantage for LeBron losing against a superior team, for me.

Well I think Kobe clearly quit. That's not up for debate.

I see where you're coming from as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think 2010 isn't debatable. I've flipped back and forth between the two. Lebron up until that point was that great. Ultimately, I'll give it to Kobe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Well I think Kobe clearly quit. That's not up for debate.

I see where you're coming from as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think 2010 isn't debatable. I've flipped back and forth between the two. Lebron up until that point was that great. Ultimately, I'll give it to Kobe.
Bron in 2010 was 2009 status or better. He frightened me in the series v.s. my Bulls. Totally dominant. His smoked the 2010 Celtics defense in that game 3 ... took his foot of the pedal after the 1st quarter then seemingly quit the rest of the series. It was so bizarre.

[T_L_P]

Haha I knew you'd go back to that post.. I can understand it, though... Duncan is a consensus for 2003.. if not, undisputed.

But honestly, 2004 = KG? Maybe KG/Timmy?

2005 is wide open for me... I'm not trying to hate on Duncan here...

But he had a poor series pretty much every year from 2001-2005, except for 2003, where he was GOAT material (like you said, top 5 ALL-TIME run). But every other season of his just doesn't stack up with the prime years of other Top 10 ATG's, for me. Also why 2003 may be Duncan's only year as best player.

2004 is clearly KG imo. Even though his offense didn't click as well in the Playoffs, he made it to the WCF with a pretty weak team, and his Regular Season was astonishing (04 Garnett and 09 LeBron are the best Regular Seasons I've witnessed).

2005 is a tough one. Duncan has a great case, even with his bad offensive performance in the Finals (the RAPM numbers say it's him and Manu for the year). Shaq and Dirk both have cases but I don't remember anything they did in the Playoffs. I'd probably say it's a four-way tie between Manu, Dirk, Duncan and Shaq. :confusedshrug:

2006 is Dirk.

2007 is Duncan for me. One of his three best defensive years (after 03 and 04), lead his team to the title, crazy advanced numbers.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html

The gap between #1 and #2 is quite large.

2008 is Kobe.

2009-10 is LeBron.

2011 is Dirk and Wade.

2012-14 is LeBron.

2000-02 was Shaq.

Where do you stand on 99? I do think it's Duncan, because Playoff performance means almost everything to me when ranking players, and Shaq and Malone both performed worse than Timmy.

Here are their numbers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=1999&p1=duncati01&y2=1999&p2=onealsh01&y3=1999&p3=malonka01&p4=&p5=&p6=

TL;dr:

99: Duncan
00-02: Shaq
03: Duncan
04: Garnett
05: Manu, Dirk, Duncan and Shaq
06: Dirk
07: Duncan
08: Kobe
09-10: LeBron
11: Wade and Dirk
12-14: LeBron (maybe tied with KD last season)

EDIT: I don't think he had a poor series in 02. His 1st round series was awesome (something like 25/15/5/6). Then in the second round the Lakers said they were gonna let anyone but Duncan beat them, and they couldn't (he was gassed in 4th quarters but still put up 29/17/5/4 with better efficiency than both Shaq and Kobe). Agreed with 01, 04 and 05 having underwhelming series (though in the 01 WCF he wasn't bad).

[guy]

If I said the Jordan ones were non-debatable ... I would lose the credibility of my opinion. I think MJ was the best player in the league from '88 - '98. He should have more than 5x MVPs. 1994 might be definitive. But 1995 D-Rob def. had a case before getting abused in the playoffs.

Why do you think that? Really, what's the argument for Barkley over Jordan in 1993? On top of the fact that he was just clearly the overall better player, Jordan clearly outplayed him when it mattered most. In 1997, again Jordan clearly outplayed Malone when it mattered most, furthermore Malone was a perennial choke-artist that really has no business at any point being debatable over Jordan. In 1998, Shaq just didn't play enough games, wasn't a great leader yet, and was still a terrible free throw shooter. So I don't see the argument there either.

1994 should be definite. No one in their right mind would pick Pippen over Hakeem in his absolute prime. And yes, Robinson had a case before getting abused, but he did get abused :oldlol: and embarrassed.

[rlsmooth775]

Bron in 2010 was 2009 status or better. He frightened me in the series v.s. my Bulls. Totally dominant. His smoked the 2010 Celtics defense in that game 3 ... took his foot of the pedal after the 1st quarter then seemingly quit the rest of the series. It was so bizarre.

You sound like skip bayless when Mark cuban owned him on first take

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron in 2010 was 2009 status or better. He frightened me in the series v.s. my Bulls. Totally dominant. His smoked the 2010 Celtics defense in that game 3 ... took his foot of the pedal after the 1st quarter then seemingly quit the rest of the series. It was so bizarre.

I see someone else thinks this aswell....

LeBron really took his game to the next level in the regular season, and MAINTAINED it during the playoffs, until he quit in game 5.

Like I said... this is his stretch at PG when Mo Williams was out.

31.7 points per game, 10.8 assists per game, 7.3 rpg
Cavaliers Record: 12-1

10 of the 13 game stretch:

28 points, 9 rebounds, 11 assists vs. Toronto Raptors
37 points, 9 assists vs. Los Angeles Lakers
37 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
32 points, 9 rebounds, 14 assists vs. Miami Heat
22 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Los Angeles Clippers
22 points, 6 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Memphis Grizzlies
36 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists vs. Miami Heat
47 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists vs. New York Knicks
32 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Orlando Magic
43 points, 13 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Denver Nuggets

Look at the duel against Kobe, 37 points, 9 assists, shooting 52% and scoring 12 in a row in the 4th quarter at one point, in a W...

Through 8 playoff games he scored 35+ in 5

Averaged 31/9/7 on 54% until ECSF G5....

He really had it all going for him until he gave it away.

[HOoopCityJones]

How the **** was Lebron over Kobe in 09-10? That shit escapes me and anyone who actually watched the NBA those years.

[rlsmooth775]

How the **** was Lebron over Kobe in 09-10? That shit escapes me and anyone who actually watched the NBA those years.

Better all around stats far better on defense it wasn't even close

[SouBeachTalents]

99: Duncan
00-02: Shaq
03: Duncan
04: Garnett
05: Manu, Dirk, Duncan and Shaq
06: Dirk
07: Duncan
08: Kobe
09-10: LeBron
11: Wade and Dirk
12-14: LeBron (maybe tied with KD last season)

You really think Manu has a legitimate argument as the best player in the league in 2005?

[SamuraiSWISH]

How the **** was Lebron over Kobe in 09-10? That shit escapes me and anyone who actually watched the NBA those years.
Dude the Kobe v.s. LeBron arguments were at their peak in 2009 and 2010 seasons. Never before ... Never after. They had huge marketing campaigns surrounding the damn things featuring muppets with their likenesses.

It was more than arguable. People were split. There was no definitive best player. That's just flat out revisionist history from a Kobe stan.

James had the way better individual play, and statistical seasons. Kobe's Lakers were finally winning chips even though his individual performance had dipped off the 2006 - 2008 levels.

You're tweaking off your own agenda, and delusions again.

That's not even taking into account the massive claim Wade had for best individual player along with LeBron in 2009, and 2010.

[ArbitraryWater]

2004 is clearly KG imo. Even though his offense didn't click as well in the Playoffs, he made it to the WCF with a pretty weak team, and his Regular Season was astonishing (04 Garnett and 09 LeBron are the best Regular Seasons I've witnessed).

2005 is a tough one. Duncan has a great case, even with his bad offensive performance in the Finals (the RAPM numbers say it's him and Manu for the year). Shaq and Dirk both have cases but I don't remember anything they did in the Playoffs. I'd probably say it's a four-way tie between Manu, Dirk, Duncan and Shaq. :confusedshrug:

2006 is Dirk.

2007 is Duncan for me. One of his three best defensive years (after 03 and 04), lead his team to the title, crazy advanced numbers.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html

The gap between #1 and #2 is quite large.

2008 is Kobe.

2009-10 is LeBron.

2011 is Dirk and Wade.

2012-14 is LeBron.

2000-02 was Shaq.

Where do you stand on 99? I do think it's Duncan, because Playoff performance means almost everything to me when ranking players, and Shaq and Malone both performed worse than Timmy.

Here are their numbers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=1999&p1=duncati01&y2=1999&p2=onealsh01&y3=1999&p3=malonka01&p4=&p5=&p6=

TL;dr:

99: Duncan
00-02: Shaq
03: Duncan
04: Garnett
05: Manu, Dirk, Duncan and Shaq
06: Dirk
07: Duncan
08: Kobe
09-10: LeBron
11: Wade and Dirk
12-14: LeBron (maybe tied with KD last season)

Looks all reasonable to me...

'99 is like a 3-way tie between Duncan/Shaq/Malone for me, maybe I'm too stubborn to adjust to the fact that Duncan may have actually been better... Even ShaqAttack (huge Shaq fan but still objective) has Duncan nailed down for '99.. Understandable since he outplayed Shaq in their series.

Right now I'm prepared for KD's takeover.. but it's not happening yet lol, the playoffs will decide it.

[Magic 32]

2006 is Dirk.


Ironic..

http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141355/bil-kobe9.jpg

[T_L_P]

You really think Manu has a legitimate argument as the best player in the league in 2005?

He was by far the best player in the Playoffs as far as I'm concerned (I used to think he and Duncan were tied, but I watched half the Playoff games again over the summer and now I know it's him).

His Regular Season (16/4/4/.609 TS%) might scare people a little, but I also happen to think Andrei Kirilenko was a top 4 player at one point, and he certainly never had the stats of a Shaq or Dirk or Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

How the **** was Lebron over Kobe in 09-10? That shit escapes me and anyone who actually watched the NBA those years.


You seriously ignored every single good post in this thread, even the once that directly linked guys saying LeBron was better than Kobe in '09? (Magic) :roll:

**** outta here acting like Kobe was some consensus best...

You haven't ONCE made an argument, by the way. That's why you're a troll.

[mehyaM24]

GOAT is EXCLUSIVELY between Jordan / Kareem... Comparing Russell to MJ, IMO, is a bit disrespectful.
we should stop and celebrate this about lebron. the guy has done more with less than just about any superstar in league history. more than kareem and russell. jordan too.

what we SHOULD be talking about more, is how could have stayed in south beach to be a contender - but sacrificed that by making things right with cleveland - and playing with less talent/younger players FULLY knowing that they probably wouldn't compete for a title this season.

he could have went to the western conference, a powerhouse, but again, explained his decision by talking about real issues with regards to his community.

lebron is the greatest because he best combines on court success with off-the-court value. accolades aside, its time we appreciate that about him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You seriously ignored every single good post in this thread, even the once that directly linked guys saying LeBron was better than Kobe in '09? (Magic) :roll:

**** outta here acting like Kobe was some consensus best...

You haven't ONCE made an argument, by the way. That's why you're a troll.
Nah, he's just gagging on Kobe's nuts, and doesn't articulate his arguments well.

Guy said Kobe has done more for the Lakers franchise, than Dirk has done for the Mavericks.

Guy said Duncan did more for the Spurs than Jordan did for the Chicago Bulls.

:facepalm

[tmacattack33]

Lmao, no he hasn't. He's only been the clear-cut best in 2012 and 2013. Durant was easily the best in 2014. In 2011, factoring in regular season and playoffs (especially in light of egg he laid in the Finals), he wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade was flat-out better than him.



Terrible post and this was the worst paragraph. Durant was not the best player last year due to the playoffs. And in 2011, Wade was not the best player due to the first 75% of the playoffs.

[Magic 32]

Durant was not the best player last year due to the playoffs.

Why? If Lebron is better than Kobe in 2010 because of the regular season, how is Durant not better than Lebron in 2014.

Lebron don't get the nod because he played the official garbage disposal of the NBA playoffs (the eastern conference).

That was the easiest road to the finals since the 07 Cavs.

[Kblaze8855]

You seriously ignored every single good post in this thread, even the once that directly linked guys saying LeBron was better than Kobe in '09? (Magic) :roll:

**** outta here acting like Kobe was some consensus best...

You haven't ONCE made an argument, by the way. That's why you're a troll.

Pretty much. I was somehow unaware of him until now. I know not to take him serious in the future.

[Shep]

Lmao, no he hasn't. He's only been the clear-cut best in 2012 and 2013. Durant was easily the best in 2014. In 2011, factoring in regular season and playoffs (especially in light of egg he laid in the Finals), he wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade was flat-out better than him.
:roll: Actually he has. Durant was the best in the regular season, but as a result of getting out played by Westbrook in the playoffs and with James having easily the best playoffs out of anyone, the conclusion is that James in the best player in the league. In 2011 it was James again by a huge margin. James was easily the best player on his team in the regular season and playoffs.

Kobe gets the nod in 2010, considering LeBron laid another egg against the Celtics that postseason. And it was a toss-up between him and Wade in 2009-- I'll give it to James for his team record and playoff run, but it should be said, none of the Heat starters besides Wade would have started for the Cavs that year and some of them wouldn't have cracked Cleveland's rotation.
Actually it was easily James again in 2010. The better argument would be who was the best player wearing a Lakers uniform that year. Wade wasn't even a top 3 player in 2009 - not even in the conversation.

So there's the last six years.
Destroyed.

Top 2, the three years before? Debatable.
Go ahead and debate at your own risk.

Chris Paul deserves consideration in 2008 along with James and Bryant, especially since James choked against the Celtics yet again that year.

Chris Paul was the best, James second, and Bryant a distant third.

In 2007, pre-injury Wade was without a doubt the best player in the league. He was at 29/5/8 through 50 games, basically identical to his 2009 stats, compared to LeBron's 26/6/6. But, Wade did get hurt, so calling James top 2 along with Bryant is probably fair.
:roll: Bryant? Bryant wasn't even top 8. Wade wasn't top 15. Tim Duncan was the best player in the league.

And you think he was definitively top 2 in 2006? Are you serious? When Wade did what he did that year and Kobe dropped 35/5/5 and put up 81? Please.
Lol at this loser. Great regular season game by Bryant. 1 game. 1 regular season game. Part of your argument why Bryant should be ranked over James was a regular season game? Retire from all posts NBA related. Bryant wasn't even top 6. Wade was the best player.

[HOoopCityJones]

Nah, he's just gagging on Kobe's nuts, and doesn't articulate his arguments well.

Guy said Kobe has done more for the Lakers franchise, than Dirk has done for the Mavericks.

Guy said Duncan did more for the Spurs than Jordan did for the Chicago Bulls.

:facepalm

Don't try to mask your poor arguments into other discussions. You're the biggest Jordan nut hugger on this board. I could care less what your opinion is. Lmao , Dirk did more for his Franchise? You're a joke.

Stick to convo about Jordan's dick size. :lol

[HOoopCityJones]

Pretty much. I was somehow unaware of him until now. I know not to take him serious in the future.

:roll:

Kobe > Lebron up and til 2011 or so.

Stay mad. :lol

[HOoopCityJones]

Nah, he's just gagging on Kobe's nuts, and doesn't articulate his arguments well.

Guy said Kobe has done more for the Lakers franchise, than Dirk has done for the Mavericks.

Guy said Duncan did more for the Spurs than Jordan did for the Chicago Bulls.

:facepalm


This also proves how big of a ***** you are , can't argue off the strength of your current stance so you have to bring up some shit you know damn well I wasn't sincere in saying , it was to scoff at your ill informed notion that Dirk somehow did more for the Mavs than Kobe for The Lakers.

Like I said you're a joke , who gets offended by anything, from the miniscule to the down right lame and gay , like another man's ***** size. Who doesn't even know you exist.

[ArbitraryWater]

This guy just made 2 seperate replies in a 10 minute stretch about the same post..... Its like he came back to this thread to show us the salt.

Hoopcityjones = EXTREMELY mad.

[HOoopCityJones]

This guy just made 2 seperate replies in a 10 minute stretch about the same post..... Its like he came back to this thread to show us the salt.

Hoopcityjones = EXTREMELY mad.

If anything I'm laughing at your lame ass specifically.

Piggy back *** riding Goon.

[Roundball_Rock]

we should stop and celebrate this about lebron. the guy has done more with less than just about any superstar in league history. more than kareem and russell. jordan too.


Exactly. The Finals with scrubs, consecutive 60+ seasons with a weak "supporting cast." Look at where the "most stacked team of all-time," which replaced LeBron with a 2x all-star, is without LeBron this year. NBA Finals to 35-40 wins (they had a losing record before Bosh got hurt too). :lol

[buddha]

he was the best for like 2 years. KD was better last year.

[Asukal]

Possible legitimate GOAT? :biggums:

That wasn't the case since 2010. :oldlol:

[Dresta]

:roll: Actually he has. Durant was the best in the regular season, but as a result of getting out played by Westbrook in the playoffs and with James having easily the best playoffs out of anyone, the conclusion is that James in the best player in the league. In 2011 it was James again by a huge margin. James was easily the best player on his team in the regular season and playoffs.

Actually it was easily James again in 2010. The better argument would be who was the best player wearing a Lakers uniform that year. Wade wasn't even a top 3 player in 2009 - not even in the conversation.

Destroyed.

Go ahead and debate at your own risk.

Chris Paul was the best, James second, and Bryant a distant third.

:roll: Bryant? Bryant wasn't even top 8. Wade wasn't top 15. Tim Duncan was the best player in the league.

Lol at this loser. Great regular season game by Bryant. 1 game. 1 regular season game. Part of your argument why Bryant should be ranked over James was a regular season game? Kill yourself. Bryant wasn't even top 6. Wade was the best player.
You are ****ing deluded dude, and that's all there is to say about this incredibly idiotic post.

Wade wasn't even a top 3 player in 09 - wtf are you smoking dude (and this is only one of about a half dozen idiotic claims in this post).

Since when does the best player in the league 'by a huge margin' choke on the biggest stage and throw away a championship that was almost handed to him on a silver platter?

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe > Lebron up and til 2011 or so.

Stay mad.

Make real posts or dont post.

[Audio One]

These are IMO, and the few times definitive best player reared it's head. Some could be argued otherwise, I'm sure ... but these are mine. 2005, and 2011 had too many variable, or too many contenders to the throne due to contextual issues.

2014 - Durant, debatable LeBron
2013 - Definitive LeBron
2012 - Definitive LeBron
2011 - ?
2010 - LeBron, debatable Kobe
2009 - LeBron, debatable Wade / Kobe
2008 - Kobe, debatable CP3
2007 - Kobe, debatable Dirk
2006 - Definitive Kobe
2005 - ?
2004 - Definitive KG
2003 - Definitive Duncan
2002 - Shaq, debatable Duncan
2001 - Shaq, debatable Duncan / Kobe
2000 - Definitive Shaq
1999 - Shaq, debatable Karl Malone
1998 - MJ, debatable Shaq
1997 - MJ, debatable Karl Malone
1996 - Definitive MJ
1995 - Hakeem, debatable D. Robinson
1994 - Hakeem, debatable Pippen
1993 - MJ, debatable CB34
1992 - Definitive MJ
1991 - Definitive MJ
1990 - MJ, debatable CB34
1989 - MJ, debatable Magic
1988 - MJ, debatable Magic / Bird
1987 - Magic, debatable MJ / Bird

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but if Olajuwon's considered the best player in '95, how aren't Duncan and Nowizki not considered the best players in the game in '05 and '11, especially Dirk? :confusedshrug:

[K Xerxes]

These are IMO, and the few times definitive best player reared it's head. Some could be argued otherwise, I'm sure ... but these are mine. 2005, and 2011 had too many variable, or too many contenders to the throne due to contextual issues.

2014 - Durant, debatable LeBron
2013 - Definitive LeBron
2012 - Definitive LeBron
2011 -
2010 - LeBron, debatable Kobe
2009 - LeBron, debatable Wade / Kobe
2008 - Kobe, debatable CP3
2007 - Kobe, debatable Dirk
2006 - Definitive Kobe
2005 -
2004 - Definitive KG
2003 - Definitive Duncan
2002 - Shaq, debatable Duncan
2001 - Shaq, debatable Duncan / Kobe
2000 - Definitive Shaq
1999 - Shaq, debatable Karl Malone
1998 - MJ, debatable Shaq
1997 - MJ, debatable Karl Malone
1996 - Definitive MJ
1995 - Hakeem, debatable D. Robinson
1994 - Hakeem, debatable Pippen
1993 - MJ, debatable CB34
1992 - Definitive MJ
1991 - Definitive MJ
1990 - MJ, debatable CB34
1989 - MJ, debatable Magic
1988 - MJ, debatable Magic / Bird
1987 - Magic, debatable MJ / Bird

Great post. I know that you don't want to appear as an MJ homer, but, come on man, it is what it is. There is really little argument in 93 and 97 for anyone else but MJ. Even 90, which I consider to be arguably MJ's peak, I don't see how anyone else has a case. They won in 91 because his team got better, not necessarily because he got any better. I can see a legitimate argument in 98 for Shaq though, so you're definitely right in making that debatable.

Hakeem should be definitive in 94 and 95 too. MVP, FMVP and DPOY in one season... and you're right that DRob had a legit case for best player until that series, but it still happened, and Hakeem brutalised him.

One last little point, I think I'd still give the nod to LeBron in 2014. Although Durant was the best player in the regular season, his playoffs were honestly quite disappointing, and LeBron did outperform him.

By my estimation, MJ was the best in the league from 88-98, definite in 90, 91, 92, 93, 96 and 97 (would have likely been the best too in 94 and 95). LeBron best from 09-14, definitely only in 12 and 13. Difference is clear if we needed reminding

[JohnFreeman]

Make real posts or dont post.
:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Great post. I know that you don't want to appear as an MJ homer, but, come on man, it is what it is. There is really little argument in 93 and 97 for anyone else but MJ. Even 90, which I consider to be arguably MJ's peak, I don't see how anyone else has a case. They won in 91 because his team got better, not necessarily because he got any better. I can see a legitimate argument in 98 for Shaq though, so you're definitely right in making that debatable.

Hakeem should be definitive in 94 and 95 too. MVP, FMVP and DPOY in one season... and you're right that DRob had a legit case for best player until that series, but it still happened, and Hakeem brutalised him.

One last little point, I think I'd still give the nod to LeBron in 2014. Although Durant was the best player in the regular season, his playoffs were honestly quite disappointing, and LeBron did outperform him.

By my estimation, MJ was the best in the league from 88-98, definite in 90, 91, 92, 93, 96 and 97 (would have likely been the best too in 94 and 95). LeBron best from 09-14, definitely only in 12 and 13. Difference is clear if we needed reminding

Was pretty definite in 2009 (210).. okay, at least '09, right?

Individually Wade is closest, but since LeBron won TWENTY-THREE more games, and Wade underperformed and lost (against a Hawks team he IMO should have won), and LeBron had a GOAT caliber post-season, I don't see much of an argument.


CB really rode his MVP train from the '92 Olympics to the finals, and was a beast in 1990 (robbed of MVP), so I get the shotouts... although its scary in 1990, considering thats MJ's PEAK (for me), so its weird MJ wasn't one of the top 2 in MVP consideration.

[Simple Jack]

No because the context is entirely different.

Kobe played decoy, and a perfect facilitating team game the first 4 games of the series to go up 3 to 1 on a #2 seed, with vastly inferior talent in a difficult conference ... up big time in a series they had no business even competing in.

They lost game 5 playing this way, with LA's talent surrounding KObe coming back down to earth and reality.

In game 6 in LA Kobe had to put up 50 including some stunning shots in an OT thriller and it still wasn't enough to put away the Suns.

Mamba dropped 20 something first half points in game 7. Even though they were still getting blown out Phil said try to involve everyone else. Kobe at this point given the lack of trust he had in his teammates inability to close out the Suns when they had a huge 3 to 1 lead, thought this was a foolish endeavor and spitefully didn't try the second half in a n obvious blow out.

Meanwhile LeBron quit MID SERIES after some really good performances (game 3 in Boston especially) on teammates that won 60+ games, were the #1 seed, and favorites to win the series. Kobe's 2006 Lakers were always underdogs either way. James Cavs were favorites. He didn't even try, so who knows what their potential could've been.

LeBron literally quit on his teammates, and home town. Gave up without even trying. Mid series. Checked out mentally for greener Miami pastures.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The devil is in the details, and the circumstances are entirely different.

Kobe quit because he was too stubborn, and competitive on an individual level.

LeBron quit for no reason, without even trying, gave up on his teammates mid series because he's a front runner, and a coward. He plays hard only when he knows victory is guaranteed.

I don't understand how people can continue to make this statement knowing LeBron's history in game 7's, games he's had against Indiana with their backs to the wall, the insane game against Boston, the "headband" game against the Spurs, etc...

How, in any way, can those games be considered guaranteed victories?

[Droid101]

I don't understand how people can continue to make this statement knowing LeBron's history in game 7's, games he's had against Indiana with their backs to the wall, the insane game against Boston, the "headband" game against the Spurs, etc...

How, in any way, can those games be considered guaranteed victories?
You, like your namesake, are retarded. So, we can move on to more important topics now.

[Simple Jack]

You, like your namesake, are retarded. So, we can move on to more important topics now.

Good one buddy. Quite the contribution you've made to this thread.

[PsychoBe]

Lmao, no he hasn't. He's only been the clear-cut best in 2012 and 2013. Durant was easily the best in 2014. In 2011, factoring in regular season and playoffs (especially in light of egg he laid in the Finals), he wasn't even the best player on his team. Wade was flat-out better than him.

Kobe gets the nod in 2010, considering LeBron laid another egg against the Celtics that postseason. And it was a toss-up between him and Wade in 2009-- I'll give it to James for his team record and playoff run, but it should be said, none of the Heat starters besides Wade would have started for the Cavs that year and some of them wouldn't have cracked Cleveland's rotation.

So there's the last six years. Top 2, the three years before? Debatable. Chris Paul deserves consideration in 2008 along with James and Bryant, especially since James choked against the Celtics yet again that year. In 2007, pre-injury Wade was without a doubt the best player in the league. He was at 29/5/8 through 50 games, basically identical to his 2009 stats, compared to LeBron's 26/6/6. But, Wade did get hurt, so calling James top 2 along with Bryant is probably fair. And you think he was definitively top 2 in 2006? Are you serious? When Wade did what he did that year and Kobe dropped 35/5/5 and put up 81? Please.

GTFO with that stan propaganda.

all please read this ether :applause:

[plowking]

all please read this ether :applause:

His post is BS. An idiotic Wade fan who fails to use logic when it comes to anything Wade or Bron related.

His own logic falls through. He won't call Bron the best in 2009 and 2010, since Kobe was the best, but calls Kobe the best in 2008... Then Durant the best in 2014.

I'm not sure why it bothers anyone to say that Bron was the best player from 2009 to 2014. Just by pure consensus, this would be the case among basketball fans. If you asked most fans, who you would want going into the next season at the end of each of these seasons, Bron would more than likely be the answer 80+% of the time. Hence, he is the best.
No one in 2011 was saying, well, based on what happened, give me Dwight or Dirk for next season.

Most people are on here spouting shit because they hate Bron. If Durant was the best in 2014, then Bron was clearly the best in 2009 and 2010 which some people won't give him. That is using the same logic from the Durant case, to the Kobe/Bron case. Either way, at minimum, he has been the best player in the league for 5 years, 6 or 7 at most.

[PsychoBe]

His post is BS. An idiotic Wade fan who fails to use logic when it comes to anything Wade or Bron related.

His own logic falls through. He won't call Bron the best in 2009 and 2010, since Kobe was the best, but calls Kobe the best in 2008... Then Durant the best in 2014.

I'm not sure why it bothers anyone to say that Bron was the best player from 2009 to 2014. Just by pure consensus, this would be the case among basketball fans. If you asked most fans, who you would want going into the next season at the end of each of these seasons, Bron would more than likely be the answer 80+% of the time. Hence, he is the best.
No one in 2011 was saying, well, based on what happened, give me Dwight or Dirk for next season.

Most people are on here spouting shit because they hate Bron. If Durant was the best in 2014, then Bron was clearly the best in 2009 and 2010 which some people won't give him. That is using the same logic from the Durant case, to the Kobe/Bron case. Either way, at minimum, he has been the best player in the league for 5 years, 6 or 7 at most.

no, you're just ignoring context.

durant literally put up historic numbers last year, how quickly did you forget? he also had an injury to a key player and logged in more minutes than anyone and still maintained exceptional play in the post-season :facepalm

kobe put up a statline in the finals against the same magic team that bran lost to that hadn't been seen or done since mj yet he wasn't the best player? :oldlol:

people love to bring up bran's stats in the magic series when kobe put up 40-8-8 in game one while also leading his team in points and assists the entire series too.

and don't get me started on the 2010 finals. bran averaged barely over 40% shooting and almost had a turnover for every assist, then kobe beats that same team yet bran was still better? :oldlol:

your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. kobe was the best in 09-10, clearly. dirk was the best in 11' due to a historic playoff run, bran gets the nod in 12'-13', and durant clearly for 14'.

[SouBeachTalents]

kobe put up a statline in the finals against the same magic team that bran lost to that hadn't been seen or done since mj yet he wasn't the best player? :oldlol:

people love to bring up bran's stats in the magic series when kobe put up 40-8-8 in game one while also leading his team in points and assists the entire series too.

and don't get me started on the 2010 finals. bran averaged barely over 40% shooting and almost had a turnover for every assist, then kobe beats that same team yet bran was still better? :oldlol:

your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. kobe was the best in 09-10, clearly

2009 vs. Orlando
LeBron: 39, 8, 8 on 49%
Kobe: 32, 6, 7 on 43%

2010 vs. Boston
LeBron: 27, 9, 7 on 45%
Kobe: 29, 8, 4 on 41%

[Real14]

2009 vs. Orlando
LeBron: 39, 8, 8 on 49%
Kobe: 32, 6, 7 on 43%

2010 vs. Boston
LeBron: 27, 9, 7 on 45%
Kobe: 29, 8, 4 on 41%

2009- bron lost to orl and quit
kobe defeated orl for 4th ring.

2010- bron lost to Celtics and quit
kobe defeated bos for 5th ring.

[SouBeachTalents]

2009- bron lost to orl and quit
kobe defeated orl for 4th ring.

2010- bron lost to Celtics and quit
kobe defeated bos for 5th ring.

1974-2014

0 Knicks championships

[3ball]

2009 vs. Orlando
LeBron: 39, 8, 8 on 49%, loss
Kobe: 32, 6, 7 on 43%, victory

2010 vs. Boston
LeBron: 27, 9, 7 on 45%, loss
Kobe: 29, 8, 4 on 41%, victory
i mean, playing a superior brand of basketball that actually has a chance to win is better than accumulating stats.

kobe DID run the triangle and ride it to championships.... that's not easy to do... just ask melo... put a prime kobe on the knicks right now... instant favorite to come out of the East with a totally different confidence level and swag... am i wrong here??

[Real14]

1974-2014

0 Knicks championships
heat has 3 asterisks

[SouBeachTalents]

i mean, playing a superior brand of basketball that actually has a chance to win is better than accumulating stats.

kobe DID run the triangle and ride it to championships.... that's not easy to do... just ask melo... put a prime kobe on the knicks right now... instant favorite to come out of the East... am i wrong?

Having better teammates/coaching helps as well

[Trollsmasher]

no, you're just ignoring context.

durant literally put up historic numbers last year, how quickly did you forget? he also had an injury to a key player and logged in more minutes than anyone and still maintained exceptional play in the post-season :facepalm

kobe put up a statline in the finals against the same magic team that bran lost to that hadn't been seen or done since mj yet he wasn't the best player? :oldlol:

people love to bring up bran's stats in the magic series when kobe put up 40-8-8 in game one while also leading his team in points and assists the entire series too.

and don't get me started on the 2010 finals. bran averaged barely over 40% shooting and almost had a turnover for every assist, then kobe beats that same team yet bran was still better? :oldlol:

your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. kobe was the best in 09-10, clearly. dirk was the best in 11' due to a historic playoff run, bran gets the nod in 12'-13', and durant clearly for 14'.
:lol

G4 vs Memphis

[PsychoBe]

:lol

G4 vs Memphis

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron_james_dirk_nowitzki_2011_final_nba.jpg~orig inal

[Paul George 24]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron_james_dirk_nowitzki_2011_final_nba.jpg~orig inal

owned leflop stans :roll:

[Shep]

You are ****ing deluded dude, and that's all there is to say about this incredibly idiotic post.
:(

Wade wasn't even a top 3 player in 09 - wtf are you smoking dude (and this is only one of about a half dozen idiotic claims in this post).
I do not smoke, I am just giving you facts.

Since when does the best player in the league 'by a huge margin' choke on the biggest stage and throw away a championship that was almost handed to him on a silver platter?
Maybe because no other player came close? I don't know what is so hard to understand. James deserved league MVP, was the best player in the regular season, and the best player of the playoffs. If someone is MVP, best in rs, best in po's, how can another player possibly be named better than him :hammerhead:

[PsychoBe]

:(

I do not smoke, I am just giving you facts.

Maybe because no other player came close? I don't know what is so hard to understand. James deserved league MVP, was the best player in the regular season, and the best player of the playoffs. If someone is MVP, best in rs, best in po's, how can another player possibly be named better than him :hammerhead:

dirk was the best player sorry. dude scored 48 points in a playoff game mostly off jumpshots and free-throws. he decimated okc that game it was completely outrageous.

and don't get me started on the comeback he lead against miami in the finals on their home floor

[oarabbus]

Lebron is a top 5 player today? Who exactly is #1?

[Heavincent]

Lebron is a top 5 player today? Who exactly is #1?

Not Lebron.

[JohnFreeman]

heat has 3 asterisks
http://i.imgur.com/8uXQIm9.jpg

[Shep]

dirk was the best player sorry. dude scored 48 points in a playoff game mostly off jumpshots and free-throws. he decimated okc that game it was completely outrageous.

and don't get me started on the comeback he lead against miami in the finals on their home floor
Actually Nowitzki was only the 5th best player unfortunately. Nowitzki did have a great playoff, however other players had better playoffs including James, and Dwyane Wade. In terms of purely stepping up his play in the playoffs I will take Marc Gasol over Nowitzki.

[Megabox!]

i mean, playing a superior brand of basketball that actually has a chance to win is better than accumulating stats.

kobe DID run the triangle and ride it to championships.... that's not easy to do... just ask melo... put a prime kobe on the knicks right now... instant favorite to come out of the East with a totally different confidence level and swag... am i wrong here??
Yes...you're always wrong

[Roundball_Rock]

It never ceases to amaze me how 2007-2010 is used against LeBron. He dragged inferior teams much farther than they would have went absent him and this is viewed by some as a negative. That is, since LeBron is the only player of his generation capable of winning 60+ games with Mo Williams as his second best player that therefore anything less than a championship is a failure. In contrast, other greats of his era were winning around 45 games and losing in the first round with similarly weak "supporting casts." Chris Paul, generally regarded as a top 3-5 player for most of the 2008-present period, has never even gotten past the 2nd round. Yet LeBron putting up 38/8/8 in the ECF playing with scrubs and losing to a team with prime Howard, Turk, Lewis is somehow a black mark on his career?

The irony of this criticism from LeBron detractors is it implies that LeBron is on a GOAT-caliber level and therefore should be held to a uniquely high standard.


kobe DID run the triangle and ride it to championships.... that's not easy to do... just ask melo... put a prime kobe on the knicks right now... instant favorite to come out of the East with a totally different confidence level and swag... am i wrong here??

Wow. We did in fact see Kobe playing with scrubs at his absolute peak (we also saw Wade in the same situation at his absolute peak). What happened? 66-16 and the CF? Keep in mind we never saw peak LeBron with scrubs. He was 22-25 during the years Cleveland was a contender.

Look at where Miami is today without him. 14-18 after 54-28 and the Finals last year--and they replaced him with a 2x all-star.

[Magic 32]

It never ceases to amaze me how 2007-2010 is used against LeBron. He dragged inferior teams much farther than they would have went absent him and this is viewed by some as a negative. That is, since LeBron is the only player of his generation capable of winning 60+ games with Mo Williams as his second best player that therefore anything less than a championship is a failure. In contrast, other greats of his era were winning around 45 games and losing in the first round with similarly weak "supporting casts.

05-07 Lakers = 07-10 Cavs ???

A lie. Flat out.

And AI, Kidd and Dwight had similar teams in the east and did as good or better.

http://s29.postimg.org/a8mi6c26v/Mountrushmore.jpg

[3ball]

Yet LeBron putting up 38/8/8 in the ECF playing with scrubs and losing to a team with prime Howard, Turk, Lewis is somehow a black mark on his career?


of course it's a black mark - howard's magic are nobodies in the anals of history - his squad doesn't compare to the 80's celtics, Bad Boys, or the 2000's Spurs or 2000's Sacramento - all those 4 teams will be remembered... howard's is already forgotten.

also, howard, turk and lewis is the same as lebron, mo williams and delonte... 2 allstars each... plus lebron had a very deep team - JJ Hickson, Varejao and Zydrunas - so he had plenty of inside help and rebounding to go with his guards delonte and mo.... and in 2010, when he lost as the favorite AGAIN, this time to boston, lebron had added Shaq and Antawn jamison... so he had squads in cleveland in 2009 and 2010.





Keep in mind we never saw peak LeBron with scrubs.


the game isn't as simple as you make it out to be - lebron has done well with bad supporting casts from 2004-2008, but he UNDERACHIEVES when playing with great players - this is a fact that we saw in Miami (2011) and are now seeing it in Cleveland... (and please don't try to make excuses for 2011... :facepalm)

Also, unless you want to do a 3rd grade-level analysis, you have to consider the competition level he played - which was easily the weakest of ANY great you could compare him to... :confusedshrug:





The irony of this criticism from LeBron detractors is it implies that LeBron is on a GOAT-caliber level and therefore should be held to a uniquely high standard.


he's not held to a uniquely high standard - people like you compare him to jordan and he's nowhere near 6/6... it's not like he's close like 5/5 or 4/5.... he's 2/5 after getting to hand-pick his team of all-nba suppporting cast, but you want him up there with Jordan?... :facepalm
.

[ArbitraryWater]

His post is BS. An idiotic Wade fan who fails to use logic when it comes to anything Wade or Bron related.

His own logic falls through. He won't call Bron the best in 2009 and 2010, since Kobe was the best, but calls Kobe the best in 2008... Then Durant the best in 2014.

I'm not sure why it bothers anyone to say that Bron was the best player from 2009 to 2014. Just by pure consensus, this would be the case among basketball fans. If you asked most fans, who you would want going into the next season at the end of each of these seasons, Bron would more than likely be the answer 80+% of the time. Hence, he is the best.
No one in 2011 was saying, well, based on what happened, give me Dwight or Dirk for next season.

Most people are on here spouting shit because they hate Bron. If Durant was the best in 2014, then Bron was clearly the best in 2009 and 2010 which some people won't give him. That is using the same logic from the Durant case, to the Kobe/Bron case. Either way, at minimum, he has been the best player in the league for 5 years, 6 or 7 at most.

.... Bang.

Did LeBron really went from 2 consecutive historic seasons and another 2 subsequent ones, to being a much worse basketball player in that one year? Does that make any sense to you? tpols actually named Chris Paul as superior to LeBron in 2011.............

Players don't get worse so easily (at least LeBron didn't as evidenced by his following years), their surroundings and season does.


no, you're just ignoring context.

durant literally put up historic numbers last year, how quickly did you forget? he also had an injury to a key player and logged in more minutes than anyone and still maintained exceptional play in the post-season :facepalm

kobe put up a statline in the finals against the same magic team that bran lost to that hadn't been seen or done since mj yet he wasn't the best player? :oldlol:

people love to bring up bran's stats in the magic series when kobe put up 40-8-8 in game one while also leading his team in points and assists the entire series too.

and don't get me started on the 2010 finals. bran averaged barely over 40% shooting and almost had a turnover for every assist, then kobe beats that same team yet bran was still better? :oldlol:

your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. kobe was the best in 09-10, clearly. dirk was the best in 11' due to a historic playoff run, bran gets the nod in 12'-13', and durant clearly for 14'.

LeBron played better than Kobe against both the Celtics and Magic :facepalm

You talk about "Kobe dropped 40/8/8 against the Magic!!"

LeBron averaged that through SIX GAMES....... use your brain.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't think people realize he is putting up 25/8 at a 50% clip on a winning team, and people consider it a bad season. If Mike put that up after his first retirement, people would have considered it a good season, just to put things into perspective.

Err, why would they consider that a good season when Jordan was averaging 30/5/50% and 30/4/49% after retirement on not only a winning team, but the teams with the two best records in NBA history? That would be considered a subpar season for Jordan.

Lebron has a 25 PER this year, Jordan posted a 29.4 and 27.8 PER his first two years post-retirement at ages 33 and 34. Or does PER only matter the years when Lebron's has a high one? :oldlol: Like I said, this would be considered a subpar season for even post-retirement Jordan, who was also 3-4 years older than Bron. This is to say nothing of the fact that Jordanw as better defensively than this year's Bron, too.

[brownmamba00]

LeBron played better than Kobe against both the Celtics and Magic :facepalm

You talk about "Kobe dropped 40/8/8 against the Magic!!"

you can't possibly believe this shit:facepalm

the '09 Magic comparison is arguable Kobe was a beast that year in the playoffs played a great WCF and a good Finals while lebron did put up crazy numbers but in a loss tho, Kobe put up 32/6/7 in a Finals Win...it comes down to preference, they're def very close that year but I'll give Kobe the nod... his team also broke that historical home-record winning streak the Cavs were on that year going 2-0 in h2h match-ups.

Can't believe Lebron stans keep defending their hero in that '10 Celtics series tho...he straight up choked in the second round of the playoffs with all the expectations...gimme Kobe in '10 aswell.

'08-'10 Kobe
'11 Dirk
'12-'14 LeBron

[plowking]

you can't possibly believe this shit:facepalm

the '09 Magic comparison is arguable Kobe was a beast that year in the playoffs played a great WCF and a good Finals while lebron did put up crazy numbers but in a loss tho, Kobe put up 32/6/7 in a Finals Win...it comes down to preference, they're def very close that year but I'll give Kobe the nod... his team also broke that historical home-record winning streak the Cavs were on that year going 2-0 in h2h match-ups.

Can't believe Lebron stans keep defending their hero in that '10 Celtics series tho...he straight up choked in the second round of the playoffs with all the expectations...gimme Kobe in '10 aswell.

'08-'10 Kobe
'11 Dirk
'12-'14 LeBron

Absolute load of shit.

Kobe puts up 6-24 and straight up chokes, and just because he wins, Kobe>Bron? Rubbish.

He played better against the Magic, and he was better against the Celtics regardless.

[ArbitraryWater]

you can't possibly believe this shit:facepalm

the '09 Magic comparison is arguable Kobe was a beast that year in the playoffs played a great WCF and a good Finals while lebron did put up crazy numbers but in a loss tho, Kobe put up 32/6/7 in a Finals Win...it comes down to preference, they're def very close that year but I'll give Kobe the nod... his team also broke that historical home-record winning streak the Cavs were on that year going 2-0 in h2h match-ups.

Can't believe Lebron stans keep defending their hero in that '10 Celtics series tho...he straight up choked in the second round of the playoffs with all the expectations...gimme Kobe in '10 aswell.

'08-'10 Kobe
'11 Dirk
'12-'14 LeBron

Can't believe what shit? LeBron INARGUABLY played better in 2009... weather you compare rounds or opponents.. give me a ****in break.

2010 is another story because LeBron shot in the high 30's from game's 4-6.... But it's just a different set of standarts applied.

LeBron's game 1: 35/7/7 on 50% (W)
LeBron's game 3: 38/8/7 on 64% (W - 21 after 1Q)

Are better than any Kobe game in his finals series... and when we talk about bad performances, Kobe takes the cake with his 6-24 choke job in game 7... but its not just one, he was also 10-29 in game 2, and 8-20 in game 1... In fact, he's the only FMVP to never shoot 50% in a game.... well, 2010 Kobe, and 2009 Kobe.

Which is why in the end LeBron did 27/9/7 on 45% and Kobe 29/8/4 on 41%.... anyone can see LeBron played better.

[Roundball_Rock]

of course it's a black mark - howard's magic are nobodies in the anals of history -

Who cares? They were the superior team. The Magic were a team that briefly contended but during that period they were legitimate contenders. They in that sense are no different than say, the 1993-1995 Suns.


also, howard, turk and lewis is the same as lebron, mo williams and delonte... 2 allstars each.

Wow. Turk, Lewis=Williams and Delonte?


the game isn't as simple as you make it out to be - lebron has done well with bad supporting casts from 2004-2008, but he UNDERACHIEVES when playing with great players

I have made a similar point before: LeBron is arguably the GOAT at elevating bad teams but if I want a GOAT-caliber player to take a good team to dominance LeBron is not who I would select.


this is a fact that we saw in Miami (2011) and are now seeing it in Cleveland... (and please don't try to make excuses for 2011...

4 Finals, 2 championships. Where is Miami without LeBron? :roll: Keep in mind they replaced him with a 2x all-star, not a scrub who could not even make a NBA roster the previous year...


you have to consider the competition level he played - which was easily the weakest of ANY great you could compare him to...

That is debatable. By one measure, talent pool, LeBron had the toughest competition since he played in a global era. He is the only GOAT-caliber player to have done so thus far. LeBron also played in the same era as the Spurs' dynasty and the "Big 3" Celtics (1 title, 2 Finals, 3 ECF's in 4 years and their 09' run was cut short due to KG's injury). He had to beat Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka to win his first ring. It isn't as if he has had weak competition.


he's not held to a uniquely high standard - people like you compare him to jordan

I meant relative to his contemporaries, not legends from past eras.

CP3 has been a top 5 players for several years and has never gotten past the second round. Durant has played with Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka and yet remains ringless. Howard made the Finals once and the ECF twice but his teams have done nothing outside of those years.

:oldlol: at "6/6" in a vacuum. LeBron did not have a team that could contend for the #1 seed without him (even with a D-Leaguer at SG); his Miami team is 14-18 post-LeBron while Cleveland, after he left, was nowhere to be seen in the subsequent 4 seasons.

[Magic 32]

Here is the biggest problem with the Magic series...

http://s2.postimg.org/715vt8e9l/ghk.png

So why did Lebron's FGA skyrocket during this series? It's not like it was a winning formula or the result of comeback attemps.

He just flat out changed his play from the previous two series and started to shot 10 more shots per game (and not at a high clip).

He shot 41.5% in Orlando and in the pivotal game 4, he had 7 turnovers in 4th and OT alone.

This is not the GOAT performance that Lebron stans try to make it.