90's Bulls and 80's Lakers: Best Offenses Ever

[3ball]

The team ORtg of the championship Bulls and 80's Lakers teams are among the very best ever - and since these ORtg's represent championship, winning play, the offenses should be rated as the best of all time.


Team ORtg:

1991 Bulls: 114.6
1992 Bulls: 115.5
1993 Bulls: 112.9

1996 Bulls: 115.2
1997 Bulls: 114.4


1985 Lakers: 114.1
1987 Lakers: 115.6
1988 Lakers: 113.1


It shouldn't be a surprise that these offenses are GOAT... Magic ran his Showtime with the most-loaded supporting cast ever... and Jordan achieved the highest individual production and best clutch play ever within a triple-post, equal opportunity offense that made everyone an off-ball player.

[FKAri]

weak era.

[fpliii]

I don't have the numbera in front of me, but don't Bird's Celtics rate quite well? I saw the numbers elsewhere for their ORtg vs just the West and it compares favorably to the Lakers' ORtg vs just the West (since the East was the significantly stronger conference in the 80s).

[WallIn]

weak era.

These teams wouldn't stand a chance against the Bobcats.

[97 bulls]

And yet some claim the Bulls had no offense.

[The_Pharcyde]

I'm waiting for the first person to say
"Lakers/Bulls and it's not even close"

[LAZERUSS]

Personally, I think the Lakers of the mid-80's would have beaten any Bulls team of the 90's...

but yes, it would have been VERY close.

[97 bulls]

Personally, I think the Lakers of the mid-80's would have beaten any Bulls team of the 90's...

but yes, it would have been VERY close.
This in spite of the Bulls smashing them in 91? You really think that an older Jabaar and Cooper make that big of a difference?

[No_Look604]

2002 Sacramento Kings. Now that's beautiful basketball right there!

[LAZERUSS]

This in spite of the Bulls smashing them in 91? You really think that an older Jabaar and Cooper make that big of a difference?

A mid-80's Kareem could routinely hang 40 on Hakeem. Cooper would have given MJ fits. Magic was in his prime. And a mid-80's Worthy was FAR more dominant than the shell of the Worthy that played in the '91 Finals.

So YES, a HUGE difference.

[fpliii]

Boston's splits with prime Bird:

year - E/W
80 - 111.6/107.8
81 - 108.1/111.1
82 - 108.7/114.3
83 - 106.0/112.1
84 - 110.5/117.2
85 - 111.0/117.6
86 - 112.0/114.7
87 - 112.6/118.3
88 - 114.8/119.0

and what their ORtgs would look like if they played in the West (just flipping #games against each conference; 60/22->22/60 for 80, 58/24->24/58 for 81-88):

80 - 108.8
81 - 110.2
82 - 112.7
83 - 110.3
84 - 115.2
85 - 115.7
86 - 113.9
87 - 116.6
88 - 117.8

:kobe:

[fpliii]

Lakers splits:

80 - 116.7/108.4
81 - 104.1/109.8
82 - 107.7/112.5
83 - 108.9/111.6
84 - 106.2/113.4
85 - 110.5/116.1
86 - 111.5/115.2
87 - 111.7/117.4
88 - 110.1/115.2
89 - 112.7/115.4
90 - 115.9/114.5
91 - 110.2/114.2

Move them to the East (flipping # of games, same as above):

80 - 110.6
81 - 108.3
82 - 111.2
83 - 110.8
84 - 111.5
85 - 114.6
86 - 114.2
87 - 115.9
88 - 113.9
89 - 114.6
90 - 115.0
91 - 113.0

[gts]

This in spite of the Bulls smashing them in 91? You really think that an older Jabaar and Cooper make that big of a difference?Big difference... that 91 team was a shell of it's former self compared to the 80's teams that were running up wins like crazy

[fpliii]

One more post, give each squad a 50/50 split East/West (41 games each):

year - BOS/LAL
80 - 109.7/112.5
81 - 109.6/107.0
82 - 111.5/110.1
83 - 109.1/110.2
84 - 113.9/109.8
85 - 114.3/113.3
86 - 113.4/113.3 push
87 - 115.5/114.6
88 - 116.9/112.7
89 - done/114.0
90 - done/115.2
91 - done/112.2

[97 bulls]

A mid-80's Kareem could routinely hang 40 on Hakeem.
Thats great. But overall, he was avg 17 ppg. And the Bulls didnt have a Hakeem type center.


Cooper would have given MJ fits.
Jordan avg 31 ppg vs the Lakers with Michael Cooper. And second threepeat Jordan opperated in the post more. And weighed roughly 220 to Coopers 175lbs. Coop would be giving up 50 lbs to Jordan.


Magic was in his prime.
Magic was in his prime in 91. He was the reigning MVP, and finished second behind Jordan in 91.



And a mid-80's Worthy was FAR more dominant than the shell of the Worthy that played in the '91 Finals.
Worthy turned in his best scoring season in 91. He was 29, and yet you say he was a "shell"????. And granted he sprained his ankle a few weeks prior, but come on. Jordan played with a jammed toe and had a hard time planting his foot.

And lets not forget that that 91 Bulls team was hardly their best version as well. It would be close, but id give it to the Bulls.

[mehyaM24]

A mid-80's Kareem could routinely hang 40 on Hakeem. Cooper would have given MJ fits. Magic was in his prime. And a mid-80's Worthy was FAR more dominant than the shell of the Worthy that played in the '91 Finals.

So YES, a HUGE difference.
good post

i have continuously said in past threads, you got to account for a productive, and healthy kareem - who may have not been in his "PRIME", but was still incredibly effective (in some circles, the BEST laker in the mid 80s). and i'm not sure why there are users posting stats, acting as if they can narrate coopers defense or something. the point is, he was the lakers' best defender - a simple subtraction by subtraction for that ballclub. of course, worthy and scott's injuries were the main difference in those finals. had they been healthy, obviously that series turns out different.

every game with the exception of game 2 was CLOSE. are we REALLY going out on a limb, saying the lakers handle the bulls with kareem, scott and worthy at their 'relative' best?

all things equal, lakers beat chicago in 5 IMO

[1987_Lakers]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, choose one.

[mehyaM24]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, chose one.
the 1986 celtics deserve an honorable mention, if passing STILL has a place in "offense". :lol

btw, good point about the shortened 3PT line. that seems to get lost in these type of discussions.

[1987_Lakers]

the 1986 celtics deserve an honorable mention, if passing STILL has a place in "offense". :lol

btw, good point about the shortened 3PT line. that seems to get lost in these type of discussions.


No doubt. In terms of offense I have them just behind those Lakers teams and ahead of Jordan's Bulls. Boston had the best overall ball-movement/passing of those teams.

[Young X]

Never used to think so, but the '92 Bulls might be the best team. They had the 2nd best offense ever recorded, 4th ranked defense (in that season), Jordan/Pippen/Grant in their athletic primes, Jackson as their head coach, great passing and efficient role players. They were one MJ ejection/suspension away from winning 70 games. I'd put my money on them against any team.

[97 bulls]

good post

i have continuously said in past threads, you got to account for a productive, and healthy kareem - who may have not been in his "PRIME", but was still incredibly effective (in some circles, the BEST laker in the mid 80s).
He's been accounted for. Would he have helped? Sure. But to the point of that big of a swing? No.


and i'm not sure why there are users posting stats, acting as if they can narrate coopers defense or something. the point is, he was the lakers' best defender - a simple subtraction by subtraction for that ballclub.
What????? I posted stats of Cooper vs Jordan. Besides. Coopers replacement was Terry Teagle. Who was a much better scorer than Cooper ever was. So the loss isnt as bad as you guys try to make it seem. You guys act as if the Bulls were playing 5 on three.


of course, worthy and scott's injuries were the main difference in those finals. had they been healthy, obviously that series turns out different.
The Bulls were up 3-1 when they went down. What are you talking about?


every game with the exception of game 2 was CLOSE. are we REALLY going out on a limb, saying the lakers handle the bulls with kareem, scott and worthy at their 'relative' best?
2 and 4 weren't close. The Bulls admittedly stated they were a little overwhelmed in game 1 due to the magnitude of the game and who they were playing, and game 5 was the game that Scott and Worthy missed. And by then, the Bulls knew they had that series won.


all things equal, lakers beat chicago in 5 IMO
Again, how? And even more, are they supposed to beat the Bulls best sqaud?

[97 bulls]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, choose one.
Lol. So what about 91, 92, and 93? The Bulls played with the normal three point line.

[Poetry]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, choose one.

Jordan had the hand injury in '98, so his entire FG% suffered. From 1989-90 to 1992-93 Jordan shot .343 with 2.1 attempts. So like a lot of other players who began their career in the 80s, he developed his 3-point shot late. Isolating '98 as an example of his 3-point shooting is disingenuous.

Pippen, who shot .345 during the 94-95 season, also shot .344 during the 2000-2001 season.

Kukoc shot .446 in 2000-01.

Kerr shot .507 in 1989-90 and .516 in 1999-2000.

[3ball]

Boston splits with prime Bird:


uh ok, so bird's celtics, magic's lakers, and jordan's bulls are the best offenses of all time... :confusedshrug:

sounds about right.

[LAZERUSS]

Thats great. But overall, he was avg 17 ppg. And the Bulls didnt have a Hakeem type center.


Jordan avg 31 ppg vs the Lakers with Michael Cooper. And second threepeat Jordan opperated in the post more. And weighed roughly 220 to Coopers 175lbs. Coop would be giving up 50 lbs to Jordan.


Magic was in his prime in 91. He was the reigning MVP, and finished second behind Jordan in 91.



Worthy turned in his best scoring season in 91. He was 29, and yet you say he was a "shell"????. And granted he sprained his ankle a few weeks prior, but come on. Jordan played with a jammed toe and had a hard time planting his foot.

And lets not forget that that 91 Bulls team was hardly their best version as well. It would be close, but id give it to the Bulls.

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.

[mehyaM24]

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.
another brilliant post. will rep in the future (srs)

just so ISH can see the lineups

'80s Lakers at their best
magic/coop
scott/mcgee
worthy/spriggs
ac green/rambis/kupchak
kareem/mcadoo

'91 Bulls
paxon/armgstrong
jordan/hodges
pippen/levingston
grant/stacey king
cartwright/perdue

now, chicago has the advantage from 2-4, but the lakers have a HUGE advantage at the 5 and center position, along with a far better bench. not only that, but the lakers are much more flexible with the lineups they could use TOO.

btw LAZZ....which laker teams EXACTLY would you take over the bulls?

[97 bulls]

another brilliant post. will rep in the future (srs)

just so ISH can see the lineups

'80s Lakers at their best
magic/coop
scott/mcgee
worthy/spriggs
ac green/rambis/kupchak
kareem/mcadoo

'91 Bulls
paxon/armgstrong
jordan/hodges
pippen/levingston
grant/stacey king
cartwright/perdue

now, chicago has the advantage from 2-4, but the lakers have a HUGE advantage at the 5 and center position, along with a far better bench. not only that, but the lakers are much more flexible with the lineups they could use TOO.

btw LAZZ....which laker teams EXACTLY would you take over the bulls?
Lol. Ok. I see what you're doing. You're comparing the 91 Bulls to a combination of the 80s Lakers championship teams. Wow!!!!!!

And what Lazaruss is about to do is compare the 91 Bulls to what I assume is the 85 Lakers, but with a neat lil spin. Everyone on that team is in their respective prime. Again Wow!!!!!

[-23-]

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.

Why are you putting together a frankenstein team made of players in different years when comparing to the 91 bulls? LOL. Ok how about we take a 92-93 Jordan, 94 Pippen, Rodman, Prime Harper (no longer a shell) on a team?

[97 bulls]

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.
Ok got it. You're talking about Jabaar PRE 87.


As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.
Thats Coopers opinion. I can't argue that. Saying that.... sure Bird was bigger, but he was nowhere near as quick and as athletic as Jordan.


Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.
Again, what makes you say that Magic wasn't in his prime in 91????? 19/7/13? All NBA 1st team? MVP runner up? Nit to mention winning the MVP the year prior? And not only that, but you cant honestly tell me that the road the 91 Lakers took to get to the Finals was not the hardest of Magics career. The 52 win Rockets, the 44 win Warriors, the 63 Trailbalzers, then the 61 win Bulls. And three of those teams were excellent defensively. And even then, Magic avg. 22/8/12. You cant possibly be this unrealistic. And even if you feel he wasn't in his absolute super-cali-fragilistic-espy-allidosious prime, was it enough to make the distinction your attempting to make? I mean really?


Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%

So which Worthy are we picking here? The 85 Worthy who was only 23 the 87 Worthy? 86? Or again, a combination of them. Worthy has always been a great player, but I think you're doing him a disservice to say he peaked at 25. Especially when the stats dont show it. Perhaps you should just give credit to Pippen and the Bulls for their defensive effort against him.


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.
Im gonna have to ask.... pick, one team. Be it 82, 85, 87 etc. I don't think a fair comaprison would be to compare one vs a bunch. And mind you, you said that the 80s Lakers would beat any version. So in my opinion, I feel the 97 Bulls was their best team and best team ever. Certainly not the 91 team that really didnt have the swagger that they did later.

[mehyaM24]

Lol. Ok. I see what you're doing. You're comparing the 91 Bulls to a combination of the 80s Lakers championship teams. Wow!!!!!!

And what Lazaruss is about to do is compare the 91 Bulls to what I assume is the 85 Lakers, but with a neat lil spin. Everyone on that team is in their respective prime. Again Wow!!!!!
i dont follow

that isn't a "combination" - that's the best Laker team, the '85 squad. as for the reason i listed the rosters? you disputed the fact kareem and healthy worthy and scott didn't mean much - the '85 team is basically the '91 version at full strength.

but not only were you WRONG about kareem stats, you dodged my underlining point.

please present a rebuttal - thanks in advance

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan had the hand injury in '98, so his entire FG% suffered. From 1989-90 to 1992-93 Jordan shot .343 with 2.1 attempts. So like a lot of other players who began their career in the 80s, he developed his 3-point shot late. Isolating '98 as an example of his 3-point shooting is disingenuous.

Pippen, who shot .345 during the 94-95 season, also shot .344 during the 2000-2001 season.

Kukoc shot .446 in 2000-01.

Kerr shot .507 in 1989-90 and .516 in 1999-2000.

You are just proving my point. Jordan was a 30% 3 point shooter from 85-93. Pippen was 25%, he was 32% from '98 through his retirement. They were never special 3 point shooters, same goes for Kukoc, he was a 33% 3PT shooter from 98 and on. Kerr was the only knock down shooter.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol. So what about 91, 92, and 93? The Bulls played with the normal three point line.

I believe those Bulls teams have to be in the convo for greatest offenses ever, I just have them below the mid-late 80's Celtics & Lakers.

[97 bulls]

i dont follow

that isn't a "combination" - that's the best Laker team, the '85 squad. as for the reason i listed the rosters? you disputed the fact kareem and healthy worthy and scott didn't mean much - the '85 team is basically the '91 version at full strength.

but not only were you WRONG about kareem stats, you dodged my underlining point.

please present a rebuttal - thanks in advance
Never said they didnt mean much. If you read my first post in response to Lazz, I said it woukd be close. But I also said that that would be too big of a swing. Cuz not only do the Lakers now have to win three more games, the Bulls must lose four, thats a seven game swing. I then stated that it wasnt as if they were playing with only 3 starters as if that series was played 5-3, they had Teagle, and Divac who granted werent on the level of Jabaar and Cooper, but were by no means bad, then they added Sam Perkins. I think the Bulls win in seven.

Saying that. Some feel the 87 squad was the Lakers best team because Worthy and Scott were young in 85 (both only 23), and Mcadoo and Wilkes were old. The 87 team had an older Jabaar, but prime Magic, Worthy, Scott, Green, and added Mychal Thompson.

I just dont like the idea of a 23 year old Byron Scott and a 23 year old James worthy trying to check Jordan and Pippen. Or an old Mcadoo trying to battke Rodman for rebounds. If I were a Laker fan. And as Lazaruss said, Cooper and checking Jordan the whole game. Unless you don't play Scott at all.

[97 bulls]

I believe those Bulls teams have to be in the convo for greatest offenses ever, I just have them below the mid-late 80's Celtics & Lakers.
Right. My point is you saying that the reason or a big reason for the Bulls dominace was due to the three point line being moved in. Thus making them better shooters. But wouldn't that hold true for everyone during that time? I mean, were the Bulls the only team that was allowed to shoot threes from the closer line whike every other team still had to shoot from the original one? And what about 91, 92, and 93 the line was in its regular spot then. And they were still winning.

[97 bulls]

You are just proving my point. Jordan was a 30% 3 point shooter from 85-93. Pippen was 25%, he was 32% from '98 through his retirement. They were never special 3 point shooters, same goes for Kukoc, he was a 33% 3PT shooter from 98 and on. Kerr was the only knock down shooter.
But that was more a function of the way the league was at the time. A player shooting in the low 30s was considered a solid three point shooter then. Just like in the 60s, a player sshooting a FG% in the low because 40% was considered solid. Gotta compare the times.

[1987_Lakers]

Right. My point is you saying that the reason or a big reason for the Bulls dominace was due to the three point line being moved in. Thus making them better shooters. But wouldn't that hold true for everyone during that time? I mean, were the Bulls the only team that was allowed to shoot threes from the closer line whike every other team still had to shoot from the original one? And what about 91, 92, and 93 the line was in its regular spot then. And they were still winning.

My point was that with the short 3 point line it inflates the teams offensive stats like Offensive Rating. The '92 Bulls for me was the best team in terms of offense.

[1987_Lakers]

But that was more a function of the way the league was at the time. A player shooting in the low 30s was considered a solid three point shooter then. Just like in the 60s, a player sshooting a FG% in the low because 40% was considered solid. Gotta compare the times.

Please, Danny Ainge in 1988 was shooting 41.5% from 3 point land on 1.8 makes a game, Larry Bird was 41.4% on 1.3 makes a game.

The league average in 3P% in 1993 was 33.6%

20 years later in 2013 it was 35.9%

3 point shooting has improved overall, but not a dramatic improvement as you might think.

[Micku]

Jordan had the hand injury in '98, so his entire FG% suffered. From 1989-90 to 1992-93 Jordan shot .343 with 2.1 attempts. So like a lot of other players who began their career in the 80s, he developed his 3-point shot late. Isolating '98 as an example of his 3-point shooting is disingenuous.

Pippen, who shot .345 during the 94-95 season, also shot .344 during the 2000-2001 season.

Kukoc shot .446 in 2000-01.

Kerr shot .507 in 1989-90 and .516 in 1999-2000.

Didn't he cut his finger in 1999 or are you talking about something else? In 99 he cut his finger right before he announced his retirement I believed.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This in spite of the Bulls smashing them in 91? You really think that an older Jabaar and Cooper make that big of a difference?

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

- That "older" Jabbar who was still capable of averaging 20 PPG on great efficiency, still had one of the GOAT Finals series (1985) for example, drew big attention down-low and was a very good passer out of the post, tall player down the middle still playing some D with a few blocks...
They had Divac and Perkins yea, but I certainly wouldn't take that above 80's Kareem plus Mychal Thompson (complete shell in 1991) and also Rambis (or even McAdoo).

- Cooper was their best defensive player for some time at some point, simply one of the best defensive guards/players ever, gave hell to 1's, 2's or 3's countless times, also capable of "anchoring" a defense from the backcourt (few guards across history can make such claims, few of them have done it better)...
Also, he was a big spark of the bench with his energetic play and athleticism, he developed a great spot-up 3pt shot, and very IMPORTANT here, a part that's really underrated about his game is that he was pretty good for backing up Magic at PG duties, as he was a good passer and could really "take care" of the ball, and it was clear LA really needed that backup for Magic when Mike was gone, no one even close to that level in 1991.

- Worthy and Scott, two huge pieces for them, two great players, were injured for the 1991 Finals...

Yes, all of that makes a BIG difference... You wouldn't know much about that though :rolleyes:

And I can't see the best Jordan's Bulls team beating the best showtime Lakers team in a 7games series, more often than the other way around.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Please, Danny Ainge in 1988 was shooting 41.5% from 3 point land on 1.8 makes a game, Larry Bird was 41.4% on 1.3 makes a game.

The league average in 3P% in 1993 was 33.6%

20 years later in 2013 it was 35.9%

3 point shooting has improved overall, but not a dramatic improvement as you might think.

Agreed.

Can look at Dale Ellis (probably the most underrated shooter ever) shooting 48% on 4 attempts; Michael Coop (one who didn't make no difference :rolleyes:) reaching 48.6% on 4 attempts for the 1987 post-season for example; Mike Price with 41% on 5 attempts; Byron Scott (injured in 1991) once shot 42% on 3 attempts; Craig Hodges with 49% and 1.3 makes; Jon Sundvold with 52% on 1.4 attempts; Steve Kerr 2 attempts on 51%; Brian Taylor shot 38% on 3 attempts the 1st year the line was introduced to the NBA; Trent Tucker with 40% on 1.5 makes; Reggie Miller was already reaching 40% in 1988-89.....

[97 bulls]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

- That "older" Jabbar who was still capable of averaging 20 PPG on great efficiency, still had one of the GOAT Finals series (1985) for example, drew big attention down-low and was a very good passer out of the post, tall player down the middle still playing some D with a few blocks...
They had Divac and Perkins yea, but I certainly wouldn't take that above 80's Kareem plus Mychal Thompson (complete shell in 1991) and also Rambis (or even McAdoo).
Again, im not saying or implying that Divac or Perkins were better than 80s Kareem. What I am saying is that they were both good players and that by 87, Jabaar while being better than them, wasnt that much better to think that he would swing that series. Early to mid 80s Jabaar? Yes thats a big improvement. But then you loose a seasoned Worthy and Scott.


- Cooper was their best defensive player for some time at some point, simply one of the best defensive guards/players ever, gave hell to 1's, 2's or 3's countless times, also capable of "anchoring" a defense from the backcourt (few guards across history can make such claims, few of them have done it better)...
Also, he was a big spark of the bench with his energetic play and athleticism, he developed a great spot-up 3pt shot, and very IMPORTANT here, a part that's really underrated about his game is that he was pretty good for backing up Magic at PG duties, as he was a good passer and could really "take care" of the ball, and it was clear LA really needed that backup for Magic when Mike was gone, no one even close to that level in 1991.
And again, Coop was a great man defender. I don't see his defense being able to hinder Jordans ability to score. I mean he didn't. Jordan avg almost 32 ppg while Coope was with the Lakers. Higher if you taje away his rookie season.


- Worthy and Scott, two huge pieces for them, two great players, were injured for the 1991 Finals...
No they weren't. Scott hurt his shoulder late in game four, and Worthy reagravated his ankle sprain. Again also in game four. And mind you when Worthy and Scott went down, the Bulls were up and had the game well in hand. And had a 3-1 series lead. And let's not forget that Jordan was playing with an injured big tie that series. I seem to remember him having to put take his shoe off when he wasnt in or they took out the in sole to give the swollen toe more room and relieve the pressure.


Yes, all of that makes a BIG difference... You wouldn't know much about that though :rolleyes:

Im not the unreasonable one here my friend. You are.


And I can't see the best Jordan's Bulls team beating the best showtime Lakers team in a 7games series, more often than the other way around.
I can.

Funny thing is. I've seen you routinely compare Bird to Jordan based on the Celtics beating the Bulls in 86 and 87. But wont acknowledge that Jordan didnt have a team good enough to compete with the Celtics. He didnt have even rookie Pippen or Grant. And yet you still feel if he.was good enough, he wouldve or should've been able to overcome that situation. But Magic and.Kareem dont huh?

What's the difference between the Celtics/Bulls.series in 86, where one game went to overtime, and another the Bulls (who were heavy underdogs) had a lead at halftime. And the.Bulls/Lakers series where the Lakers(a much better team than the Bulls in 86) got basically blown out in two games, won one game on a last second shot, lost one game in overtime, etc? The hypocrisy is.just unbelievable.

[Poetry]

Didn't he cut his finger in 1999 or are you talking about something else? In 99 he cut his finger right before he announced his retirement I believed.

He had a cracked bone in his knuckle and torn ligaments in his hand during the '98 season.

The cigar cutter injury in 1999 left him unable to bend that finger properly, but we didn't see the results of that injury until he joined the Wizards.

[EllEffEll]

If we are just talking about offense, the 81-82 Denver Nuggets should get a mention here. Their problem was that their defense was as bad as their offense was good. But they could score. . . . . 126 average ppg, and it wasn't just one guy.

Magic in his prime in 1991? :facepalm

Anyone that says that is true wasn't really watching closely, if at all.

I would have loved to see a 90's Bulls team play a prime Showtime Laker team. 1987 would have been a good year for that. I have no idea who would have won, but it would have been fun to see the 1985 Lakers play that series too. I loved the early 80's Showtime Lakers, but it took Rambis getting punked by McHale in the 1984 finals for the Lakers to get truly tough enough to play a really physical series against those rough and tumble Eastern Conference teams of the late 80's and early 90's.

[fpliii]

uh ok, so bird's celtics, magic's lakers, and jordan's bulls are the best offenses of all time... :confusedshrug:

sounds about right.
I might agree with that. I was just noting that Bird is often left out of these types of discussions, but the East was super tough in the 80s. Enough that his teams and Magic's teams are comparable offensively when weighting performances against each conference equally.