Where Would Magic Rank...

[LAZERUSS]

Magic was ONE bad pass, and ONE missed FT away from ...

His 6th ring, and likely his 4th FMVP.

Not only that, but Bird would "only" have two rings, and one FMVP.


The '84 Finals...

Game One in Boston:

LA raced to a 28-10 lead, led by 19 in the third quarter, and held on for a 115-109 win in Boston.

Magic had 19 points, on 7-11 FG/FGA and 4-4 FT/FTA, 6 rebs, 10 asts, and 4 stls.


Game two in Boston:

LA has the lead, 115-113, and the ball, with 18 seconds left. After inbounding to Worthy, and with Magic standing an arm-length away, Worthy tried to hit Byron Scott with a cross-court pass. Gerald Henderson intercepted it, and scored the tying basket. The game went into OT, and Boston held on for a sries-tying 124-121 win.

Magic: 27 pts, on 10-14 FG/FGA and 7-7 FT/FTA, with 10 rebs, and 9 asts.


Game three in LA:

Boston took a 40-35 lead early in the second period. The Lakers exploded on an 18-0 run, and blew open the game...en route to a 137-104 win.

Magic: 14 pt, on 4-6 FG/FGA and 6-10 FT/FTA, with 11 rebs and 21 asts. A 14-11-21 triple double.


Game four in LA:

In a hard-fought contest, the Lakers forged a five point lead with 41 seconds left. In the last 41 seconds, Magic missed two FTs, and Worthy missed one. Boston tied the game, and won it in OT, 129-125.

Magic: 20 pts, on 8-12 FG/FGA and 4-7 FT/FTA, with 11 rebs and 17 asts. A 20-11-17 triple double.


Had Worthy not thrown the ball away in game two, and had Magic or Worthy just made ONE FT in game four, and LA would likely have SWEPT Boston.


Had the series been over in four games, here were Magic's stats:

20.0 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 14.8 apg, .674 FG% (!), .750 FT%.


He wins his 3rd ring, and 3rd FMVP in his first five seasons, en route to six rings, and four FMVPs.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Where would LeBron rank had he played like his "normal self" in 2011 with the Heat winning the title? :rolleyes:

Lakers had the better team on paper and were expected to win with the way they were playing, meanwhile most of the Celtics were playing below their standards except for Bird who was playing like a beast.

LA had Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Wilkes, Scott... But they just couldn't get the job done while Boston was doing just that.

Magic just choked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

What-if questions like that are plain silly.
Magic choked, period...
I know all you're gonna do is look at selected stats, always with the same bullshit ignorant arguments, and I'm pretty sure you weren't even born to watch that series for example (clear when reading your posts throughout the years).

[chocolatethunder]

To me he'd be the same and I don't mean that in a bad way. Magic and Bird are almost interchangable to me. When I was growing up they were always battling and it seemed like one of them was always in the finals. They both won and if one of them would have won one more I don't think it would make a lot of difference to me. Even though Magic never won without KAJ it never bothered me.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic was also injured for most of the last half of the '81 season. And he shot poorly (he didn't play poorly though) in the first round. Unfortunately, the first round was a best of three, and LA somehow lost that series, 2-1 (Moses was just unstoppable.)

What is particularly interesting about '81, was that Boston eked out three straight razor-thin wins against Philly in the EDF's, to come all the way back from a 3-1 series deficit. They would go on to struggle with Moses and the Rockets in the Finals, but eventually they won.

However, the Lakers easily beat Philly in both in '80 and '82. Hell, they blew out the Sixers on their home floor in the clinching game six win...and did so withOUT Kareem.

I don't think there was any question that had Magic been healthy in '81, that they would have waltzed to their second straight title (of what would then be three straight titles in '82.)

[the mesiah]

Bottom line I got him ranked at 2 if I was starting a team from brand new .He had the intangibles to make everyone better and made no names into household names .To answer the question, If we just lookin at achievements and accolades like a garbage all defense team awards or scoring chips then I would still put in top 5 easily with the 6th ring,4 fmvp.

[SOD 21]

Considering that he's already ranked in my top four all-time, he couldn't be ranked much higher than he currently is.

Sadly, I remember that series very vividly and the Lakers were the better team than Boston in 1984. LA probably should have swept the Celtics because they had them on the ropes.

A couple of huge mental breakdowns swung that series.

[LAZERUSS]

Considering that he's already ranked in my top four all-time, he couldn't be ranked much higher than he currently is.

Sadly, I remember that series very vividly and the Lakers were the better team than Boston in 1984. LA probably should have swept the Celtics because they had them on the ropes.

A couple of huge mental breakdowns swung that series.

I agree. Even Bird admitted that the Lakers should have swept that series.

[Young X]

What if he never got injured in the '89 Finals? Lakers were 11-0 in the 1st 3 rounds. On the other hand, what if Laimbeer doesn't get called for that foul on Kareem the year before? Crazy how one small thing can change the entire outcome of a series.

[kennethgriffin]

To be fair. Magic robbed isiah thomas of the 1988 title

That bogus foul at the end with detroit up 2 was straight bullsh*t

Only reason I can admit it is because I wasnt a fan at the time


Zeke had one of the all time greatest performances in nba history. That 3rd quarter would have made him a top 10 player all time had the refs not jewed him out of the title

[chocolatethunder]

I agree. Even Bird admitted that the Lakers should have swept that series.
That's what's so great about sports. They still have to line up and play the games. You never know what's gonna happen. Nick Anderson missing FTs or a freak injury or whatever.

[LAZERUSS]

I have covered the '84 Finals, and the '81 playoffs. Magic should have won a ring in '84, and likely would have won a ring in '81 had he been completely healthy (or if the 1st round had been longer than a best of three.)

How about '83?

At first glance, the 65-17 Sixers swept the 58-24 Lakers. Philly was the best team in the league, and probably would have won a title no matter what...BUT...

LA's "sixth man" (they actually had THREE of them that season)...rookie James Worthy, broke his leg late in the regular season, and missed the entire playoffs. He had averaged 13.4 ppg on a .579 FG% during the regular season.

Their second "sixth man" Bob McAdoo, who had actually contributed nearly as much to LA's Finals title in the previous season as KAJ had, was injured during the regular season, and was nowhere near the same player in the playoffs (he missed HALF of LA's playoff games), that he had been in the regular season.

And finally, Philly had eked out close wins in games one and two. In game three it was again close, (LA had actually taken a 15 point lead in the 1st half), when in the second half, Norm Nixon went down with a knee injury, and not only missed the rest of this game (an eventual solid Sixer win), he also would miss game four... in yet another close Philly win.

As in the '81 playoff series against the Rockets, Magic again shot poorly in the '83 Finals (.403.) Still he averaged 19 ppg, 13 apg, and as he often did, he again led LA in rebounding at 8 rpg.

Once again, Philly was the best team in the league, but, had the Lakers been at full strength in this series, and it is yet just another "what if?" in Magic's career.

[LAZERUSS]

What if he never got injured in the '89 Finals? Lakers were 11-0 in the 1st 3 rounds. On the other hand, what if Laimbeer doesn't get called for that foul on Kareem the year before? Crazy how one small thing can change the entire outcome of a series.

I haven't covered '89 yet, but yes, another "what if."

[dankok8]

Even as a Magic fan it's clear as day that this is an agenda-driven post...

Magic struggled mightily in 1981 in the first round and I can say so because I watched Game 2 and 3. In Game 2 he was a monster on the boards (grabbed 18 if I remember correctly and really drove the fast break like a champ) but in Game 3 he shot awful the entire game and airballed a potential game-tying shot and also missed some free throws. Kareem although he did get slightly outplayed by Moses in the series overall really really dominated Malone and everybody else in Game 3.

And that entire season where Magic didn't play and after he came back, Kareem put up approximately 28/11 on 60% shooting over 50+ games.

I agree that the chemistry issues and the feuds between Magic and Nixon and Magic and Westhead had an impact on LA... all because of Magic' injury. Honestly if LA got by Houston they would have made the Finals and honestly Boston would have had a tough time matching up especially with Kareem who always torched them down low.

I agree with the premise of his argument but LAZERUSS' post took things out of context.



In 1984, yes if "Tragic Magic" did not show his face LA would win the title. After a hypothetical four game sweep it would be a wash where the FMVP would go to though. Kareem had a huge case especially considering his impact on defense. Honestly there wouldn't be a wrong choice.

Magic: 19.8 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 14.3 apg, 1.8 spg on 67.4 %FG/71.4 %TS in 43.0 mpg
Kareem: 27.0 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.8 bpg on 50.6 %FG/55.4 %TS in 40.5 mpg

[stanlove1111]

Magic was also injured for most of the last half of the '81 season. And he shot poorly (he didn't play poorly though) in the first round. Unfortunately, the first round was a best of three, and LA somehow lost that series, 2-1 (Moses was just unstoppable.)

What is particularly interesting about '81, was that Boston eked out three straight razor-thin wins against Philly in the EDF's, to come all the way back from a 3-1 series deficit. They would go on to struggle with Moses and the Rockets in the Finals, but eventually they won.

However, the Lakers easily beat Philly in both in '80 and '82. Hell, they blew out the Sixers on their home floor in the clinching game six win...and did so withOUT Kareem.

I don't think there was any question that had Magic been healthy in '81, that they would have waltzed to their second straight title (of what would then be three straight titles in '82.)

This is another topic you are obsessed with will try any biased trick to win the argument.

I love here how Boston struggled against Houston by winning in 6 games but LA destroyed Boston in 6 games in 1985 and 1987..

The Celtics won the title in 1984 because they were the better team. Talking about a play here or there that didn't go your way is silly. IF you want to take the Magic plays back then I want to take back all the Celtics missed shots and goofs throughout games 2 and 4.

Boston won 3 out of the last 4 games and were getting stronger, to ignore this and still say the Lakers were the better team because it fits your agenda is more of the same from you.

Lakers started out the series strong then the Celtics picked it up and pulled away. Had the series been the best or 15 the Celtics would have won it easily most likely.

[Kvnzhangyay]

To be fair. Magic robbed isiah thomas of the 1988 title

That bogus foul at the end with detroit up 2 was straight bullsh*t

Only reason I can admit it is because I wasnt a fan at the time


Zeke had one of the all time greatest performances in nba history. That 3rd quarter would have made him a top 10 player all time had the refs not jewed him out of the title

:coleman:

[kennethgriffin]

:coleman:

2 fmvps
3 titles
goat finals quarter in series clincher

[necya]

seriously ? this forum is full of troll :facepalm

[Smook A.]

He'd be 2nd or 3rd for me. Regularly, my top 3 is always Michael, Kareem, then Russell. I usually have Magic at 4.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Magic was also injured for most of the last half of the '81 season. And he shot poorly (he didn't play poorly though) in the first round. Unfortunately, the first round was a best of three, and LA somehow lost that series, 2-1 (Moses was just unstoppable.)

What is particularly interesting about '81, was that Boston eked out three straight razor-thin wins against Philly in the EDF's, to come all the way back from a 3-1 series deficit. They would go on to struggle with Moses and the Rockets in the Finals, but eventually they won.

However, the Lakers easily beat Philly in both in '80 and '82. Hell, they blew out the Sixers on their home floor in the clinching game six win...and did so withOUT Kareem.

I don't think there was any question that had Magic been healthy in '81, that they would have waltzed to their second straight title (of what would then be three straight titles in '82.)

What if Bird didn't injure his right elbow and then hand during/for the 1985 Playoffs?
When you look at his 1984 post-season and then the 1985 season, it's clear he dropped his level of play, also easy to notice when you watch him play (ofc Larry wasn't complaining or publicizing it to the media)...
You'd probably even get the same outcome as in 1985, even though Kareem was playing like a beast.

What if Walton could still play in 1987 (Wedman too) while McHale never breaks his foot in the Playoffs? Even Parish and Ainge 100% healthy for those Finals, while Bird never has a bad back?

Shit, what if Magic played in the Eastern Conference while drafted to a struggling team that needs him to be the main-man from the start? While Bird is drafted to a team with Kareem (and so on) and plays in the WC...

^You never ONCE mention stuff like that though... :lol

Same could be said about many other "situations". Plus, and again, "your" what-if is just silly :rolleyes: :facepalm

[Pointguard]

Magic obviously had something on his mind. He never had problems with clock management in life, before or after those two incidents. One could definitely make a great argument that he was one of the best ever in knowing the clock. And those two plays don't look like a choke as much as they look un-natural or that he was mentally sidetracked. Nor has he ever did those awkward foul shots again or before that. In general Magic was one of those few individuals that seemed naturally upped themselves for that moment. So yeah, it was really strange.

The worst thing about it was that he got the name Tragic out of it, before the series was lost. Like it or not Magic was the most clutch player in the 80's. Isiah probably was second but it wasn't like it was a battle. I think its a bit unfair.

The other thing is that Magic, like Wilt, were super close to having two more rings. Just close calls that you usually don't see. Magic was in a super tough era and two more rings would have him battling for the top spot for sure.

[eliteballer]

You're also forgetting Laker injuries in 83 and 89...not to mention Magic's knee injury in 81 where he was never quite the same athletically after.

[Pointguard]

You're also forgetting Laker injuries in 83 and 89...not to mention Magic's knee injury in 81 where he was never quite the same athletically after.

Yeah, remember Magic had lift and explosion before that. He did lose some leaping ability. And dunked a lot less after that.

Yeah, he could have arguments for more.

[Kvnzhangyay]

2 fmvps
3 titles
goat finals quarter in series clincher

3 titles? since when

[necya]

Magic obviously had something on his mind. He never had problems with clock management in life, before or after those two incidents. One could definitely make a great argument that he was one of the best ever in knowing the clock. And those two plays don't look like a choke as much as they look un-natural or that he was mentally sidetracked. Nor has he ever did those awkward foul shots again or before that. In general Magic was one of those few individuals that seemed naturally upped themselves for that moment. So yeah, it was really strange.

The worst thing about it was that he got the name Tragic out of it, before the series was lost. Like it or not Magic was the most clutch player in the 80's. Isiah probably was second but it wasn't like it was a battle. I think its a bit unfair.

The other thing is that Magic, like Wilt, were super close to having two more rings. Just close calls that you usually don't see. Magic was in a super tough era and two more rings would have him battling for the top spot for sure.

and this is super close to stupidy

[Pointguard]

this is super close to stupidy
This being you??? Right.

Please pick a point you have a problem with and I bet you won't stand by it.

[Pointguard]

This being you??? Right.

Please pick a point you have a problem with and I bet you won't stand by it.
Nevermind I see you are a Bird fan and thought that statement somehow messes with Bird. Please tell me you aren't dumb enough to have a problem with me saying Magic was the most clutch player in the 80's.


Humor me.

[JohnnySic]

Hilarious how some Lakers fans want to use injuries as an excuse for their team but conveniently ignore it when the opposition has injuries.

Like the '87 Finals, when the entire Celtics rotation except Bird and DJ were fighting injuries. Only a Lakers fan could brag about winning those finals. The Celtics had McHale on a broken foot, Parish on 2 sprained ankles, Ainge coming off a hamstring, and Walton and Wedman (the 6th and 7th men) both out. That would be like the Lakers with Kareem on broken foot, Worthy on 2 sprained ankles, Scott with a hamstring and Thompson and Cooper out. Had the C's been at full strength they win those finals, and there is no talk of Magic being on Bird's level (and if Bias had also lived the sweep them, but that's neither here nor there). But somehow, all those injuries are conveniently disregarded.

And that's why I never talk shop with Lakers fans. Too biased, too ignorant, too retarded.

[eliteballer]

Hilarious how some Lakers fans want to use injuries as an excuse for their team but conveniently ignore it when the opposition has injuries.

Like the '87 Finals, when the entire Celtics rotation except Bird and DJ were fighting injuries. Only a Lakers fan could brag about winning those finals. The Celtics had McHale on a broken foot, Parish on 2 sprained ankles, Ainge coming off a hamstring, and Walton and Wedman (the 6th and 7th men) both out. That would be like the Lakers with Kareem on broken foot, Worthy on 2 sprained ankles, Scott with a hamstring and Thompson and Cooper out. Had the C's been at full strength they win those finals, and there is no talk of Magic being on Bird's level (and if Bias had also lived the sweep them, but that's neither here nor there). But somehow, all those injuries are conveniently disregarded.

And that's why I never talk shop with Lakers fans. Too biased, too ignorant, too retarded.

Injuries we're talking about are where guys couldn't even PLAY.

Bird and co. still laced up..

Magic 3 yrs younger than Bird and his stats absoultely thrash Peak Bird's in the 3 finals, even 84...

[JohnnySic]

Injuries we're talking about are where guys couldn't even PLAY.

Bird and co. still laced up..

Magic 3 yrs younger than Bird and his stats absoultely thrash Peak Bird's in the 3 finals, even 84...
Walton and Wedman did not.

The bench was left with Sichting, Fred Roberts, Greg Kite, Sam Vincent. That is probably the worst bench in NBA history. The starters averaged around 40 mpg.

And McHale should not have been playing, he gutted it out.

[necya]

Nevermind I see you are a Bird fan and thought that statement somehow messes with Bird. Please tell me you aren't dumb enough to have a problem with me saying Magic was the most clutch player in the 80's.


Humor me.

i appreciate both and when you are a basketball fan it sounds like an evidence or it should cause these 2 guys brought so much for basketball.
i don't have a problem with you saying Magic was the most clutch in the 80's, i have a problem with all you said, your stupid theory of super close to win 2 more rings which make him by a magical turn, being the greatest of all time, the way you see this sport, this obsession to rank, classified, count like if 2 more rebounds + 1 more title and the dude is better than another one.
In fact, this is so disrespectful for Magic Johnson and so for Bird also (when you pointed with attention that magic was the most clutch followed by Thomas just to let people know that Bird is not on the list...so ridiculous)

In the little war of who was the best between Magic and Bird, maybe it is not clear for some reason (like the result of a 7 games series) but Bird was superior when he came into the league until 83 then, was reigning on the league for 3 uncontested MVP and still played at MVP level for the next 2 season (88, seeing maybe the greatest level of play when you considered how Magic, MJ and Larry were playing that season)
No need to compare stats (completely irrelevant and useless) nor making a season per season damn ****ing stupid analysis or even breakdown all finals games they played against each other.

So it is very boring to read these posts with some revisionism or pointing the injuries of one and forget the injuries of the others, pointing the debacle of Bird and his celtics in the 88 east finals while forgetting Magic's one (and visa versa)

To me, i thought the lakers would have won in 84, i also thought the Celtics would get their revenge in 85 but the contrary happened. 87 MAYBE depended from the last 2 shots in game 4 but i don't care, the Lakers won that's it, and i hope Bird fans have no problem with that (in fact, i'm happy to see that the most idiotic posts come from Magic homers and not Bird fans)
The only thing i would have changed, is the outcome of the 86 western finals. Just to let the Magic-Bird finals thing at 2 a piece. I'm more than convinced that we would have saved the basketball world of some stupid quotes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This being you??? Right.

Please pick a point you have a problem with and I bet you won't stand by it.

if not first, Bird was no doubt the second most clutch player in the 80s.

And if you want to go by TIERS, Bird/Magic/Isiah would be alright too.

[LAZERUSS]

Hilarious how some Lakers fans want to use injuries as an excuse for their team but conveniently ignore it when the opposition has injuries.

Like the '87 Finals, when the entire Celtics rotation except Bird and DJ were fighting injuries. Only a Lakers fan could brag about winning those finals. The Celtics had McHale on a broken foot, Parish on 2 sprained ankles, Ainge coming off a hamstring, and Walton and Wedman (the 6th and 7th men) both out. That would be like the Lakers with Kareem on broken foot, Worthy on 2 sprained ankles, Scott with a hamstring and Thompson and Cooper out. Had the C's been at full strength they win those finals, and there is no talk of Magic being on Bird's level (and if Bias had also lived the sweep them, but that's neither here nor there). But somehow, all those injuries are conveniently disregarded.

And that's why I never talk shop with Lakers fans. Too biased, too ignorant, too retarded.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Injuries are ALL we ever hear from Bird and Celtic fans.

Here is the reality...

The Lakers were CLEARLY better in '84. Boston did NOT win that series, they were horribly outplayed, but LA HANDED them the series.

Then the injury excuses start...

Boston blows out LA in game one of the '85 Finals (and it was obviously an aberration...but just how "injured" was Boston?) The Lakers then DOMINATED Boston in four of the next five games, including retribution in game three (a 136-111 rout), and a solid title-clinching road win in Boston.

The Celts apparently were healthy in '86, as they go 67-15, and easily win a title. Of course, they didn't face a Laker team that was just stunned by the upstart Rockets. But, in any case, completely healthy.

In '87 the Lakers were CLEARLY the best team in the league the ENTIRE season. In the '87 Finals, Bird plays brilliantly in one game (game one), and the result,...a total annihilation of Boston.

In fact, the Lakers ROUTED Boston in THREE of their four wins. Furthermore, LA played poorly in game three, and had they played even a normal game, they would have won that game, and then with their game four win, it would have been a SWEEP.

And the McHale "broken foot?" I guess he should have broken it earlier in his career. He was playing 40+ minutes down the stretch of the '87 regular season. In fact, he had the greatest regular season of his career... 26 ppg on a .604 FG%. Then, in the playoffs he "slipped" to a 21-9 .584 post-season, which included a 21-9 .585 Finals. And how about his next season? 23 ppg on a .604 FG%. I am not doubting the "injury", BUT, I am doubting the impact of that injury. He actually played at his PEAK with this so-called "broken foot."

We are not talking about close series in '85 or '87. They were CONVINCING Laker titles.

Then, in '88, Bird, who supposedly has had injury problems for three years now, goes on to have the greatest regular season of his career. And, as he often did, he completely fell apart in the post-season, and especially against the Pistons (a horrific .351 FG%.) Meanwhile, Magic goes on to TORCH that same Piston team (22 ppg on a .550 FG%), and was ultimately robbed of a FMVP by Worthy.

Sorry, Celtic fans, but LA was by FAR, the best team of the 80's, and Magic was easily the best player of the 80's. If you include post-season play, Magic RUNS AWAY with distinction. He was better in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88...and then just runs away from Bird after that ('89, '90, and '91.)

And, had Worthy not thrown one pass away in game two of the '84 Finals, Magic would have won another ring, and likely another FMVP in that series.

INJURIES...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Pointguard]

i appreciate both and when you are a basketball fan it sounds like an evidence or it should cause these 2 guys brought so much for basketball.
i don't have a problem with you saying Magic was the most clutch in the 80's, i have a problem with all you said, your stupid theory of super close to win 2 more rings which make him by a magical turn, being the greatest of all time, the way you see this sport, this obsession to rank, classified, count like if 2 more rebounds + 1 more title and the dude is better than another one.
In fact, this is so disrespectful for Magic Johnson and so for Bird also (when you pointed with attention that magic was the most clutch followed by Thomas just to let people know that Bird is not on the list...so ridiculous)
You have been around enough to know I have two distinctions for players in rank. GOAT Player - based on peak/prime play on the court / Goat - based on everything - which is where the majority of people on this board do as it is more accolade oriented. Magic and Bird both set the standard for this type of thinking for the younger generation and even Jordan. What you call my stupid theory was supported by Bird. And I have been talking about Isiah being one of the most clutch players for a while here. I didn't do it for this post. I can provide links. In big games Isiah has doubled his production at least four times, and doesn't have bad moments.


In the little war of who was the best between Magic and Bird, maybe it is not clear for some reason (like the result of a 7 games series) but Bird was superior when he came into the league until 83 then, was reigning on the league for 3 uncontested MVP and still played at MVP level for the next 2 season (88, seeing maybe the greatest level of play when you considered how Magic, MJ and Larry were playing that season)
No need to compare stats (completely irrelevant and useless) nor making a season per season damn ****ing stupid analysis or even breakdown all finals games they played against each other.

So it is very boring to read these posts with some revisionism or pointing the injuries of one and forget the injuries of the others, pointing the debacle of Bird and his celtics in the 88 east finals while forgetting Magic's one (and visa versa)
I wasn't the one hyping the injuries. What revision did I do? Or are you just lumping me in with all the rest of the stuff that is here.


To me, i thought the lakers would have won in 84, i also thought the Celtics would get their revenge in 85 but the contrary happened. 87 MAYBE depended from the last 2 shots in game 4 but i don't care, the Lakers won that's it, and i hope Bird fans have no problem with that (in fact, i'm happy to see that the most idiotic posts come from Magic homers and not Bird fans)
The only thing i would have changed, is the outcome of the 86 western finals. Just to let the Magic-Bird finals thing at 2 a piece. I'm more than convinced that we would have saved the basketball world of some stupid quotes. Bird fans troll too. Its really idiotic to think otherwise.

[colts19]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Injuries are ALL we ever hear from Bird and Celtic fans.

Here is the reality...

The Lakers were CLEARLY better in '84. Boston did NOT win that series, they were horribly outplayed, but LA HANDED them the series.

Then the injury excuses start...

Boston blows out LA in game one of the '85 Finals (and it was obviously an aberration.) The Lakers then DOMINATED Boston in four of the next five games, including retribution in game three (a 136-111 rout), and a solid title-clinching road win in Boston.

The Celts apparently were healthy in '86, as they go 67-15, and easily win a title. Of course, they didn't face a Laker team that was just stunned by the upstart Rockets. But, in any case, completely healthy.

In '87 the Lakers were CLEARLY the best team in the league the ENTIRE season. In the '87 Finals, Bird plays brilliantly in one game (game one), and the result,...a total annihilation of Boston.

In fact, the Lakers ROUTED Boston in THREE of their four wins. Furthermore, LA played poorly in game three, and had they played even a normal game, they would have won that game, and then with their game four win, it would have been a SWEEP.

And the McHale "broken foot?" I guess he should have broken it earlier in his career. He was playing 40+ minutes down the stretch of the '87 regular season. In fact, he had the greatest regular season of his career... 26 ppg on a .604 FG%. Then, in the playoffs he "slipped" to a 21-9 .584 post-season, which included a 21-9 .585 Finals. And how about his next season? 23 ppg on a .604 FG%. I am not doubting the "injury", BUT, I am doubting the impact of that injury. He actually played at his PEAK with this so-called "broken foot."

We are not talking about close series in '85 or '87. They were CONVINCING Laker titles.

Then, in '88, Bird, who supposedly has had injury problems for three years now, goes on to have the greatest regular season of his career. And, as he often did, he completely fell apart in the post-season, and especially against the Pistons (a horrific .351 FG%.) Meanwhile, Magic goes on to TORCH that same Piston team (22 ppg on a .550 FG%), and was ultimately robbed of a FMVP by Worthy.

Sorry, Celtic fans, but LA was by FAR, the best team of the 80's, and Magic was easily the best player of the 80's. If you include post-season play, Magic RUNS AWAY with distinction. He was better in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88...and then just runs away from Bird after that ('89, '90, and '91.)

And, had Worthy not thrown one pass away in game two of the '84 Finals, Magic would have won another ring, and likely another FMVP in that series.

INJURIES...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Same shit different day. Who won the damn series. You can always pick and choose things that could have changed the outcome. It still comes down to who won. If wilt had a team that scored 7 more points he would have had 11 Rings. Pick and choose however you want but Wilt only won 2 rings so no matter how you pick and choose it is what it is.

Picking and choosing will not change History.

How's this for picking and choosing. I Bird had gone the Lakers and play with KAJ, he would have won at least 7 rings.
Why because I said so.

[Pointguard]

if not first, Bird was no doubt the second most clutch player in the 80s.

And if you want to go by TIERS, Bird/Magic/Isiah would be alright too.
Isiah strength was that he totally exploded in important playoff games to double his average, to get 20 points in a quarter, 16 straight points, 12 points in two minutes, or have a supreme level shootouts and have very little very bad moments -that's Isiah. That's not Bird or Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

Same shit different day. Who won the damn series. You can always pick and choose things that could have changed the outcome. It still comes down to who won. If wilt had a team that scored 7 more points he would have had 11 Rings. Pick and choose however you want but Wilt only won 2 rings so no matter how you pick and choose it is what it is.

Picking and choosing will not change History.

How's this for picking and choosing. I Bird had gone the Lakers and play with KAJ, he would have won at least 7 rings.
Why because I said so.


There is an IMMENSE difference between what ACTUALLY happened...i.e., Magic's Lakers almost SWEEPING the '84 Finals (and even your boy Bird said they SHOULD have)...

and then, pure FANTASY, i.e. Bird doing any better with LA than Magic did.

How do explain Magic taking teams to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and yet another Finals) AFTER Kareem retired? Oh, and then please explain in detail as to what happened after MAGIC retired (including BOTH the '92 AND '93 seasons.)

[colts19]

There is an IMMENSE difference between what ACTUALLY happened...i.e., Magic's Lakers almost SWEEPING the '84 Finals (and even your boy Bird said they SHOULD have)...

and then, pure FANTASY, i.e. Bird doing any better with LA than Magic did.

How do explain Magic taking teams to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and yet another Finals) AFTER Kareem retired? Oh, and then please explain in detail as to what happened after MAGIC retired (including BOTH the '92 AND '93 seasons.)

How many games did that series go again? Who won again? How is it almost a 4 game sweep, if it goes 7 games. You praise Magic, who was great but you criticize Bird, who was also great and carried his team to the championship.

After their rookie year, there were many experts saying if the Lakers had Bird instead of Magic, they might have only lost 9 or 10 games. You are so one-sided in all your post, it's pitiful.

[LAZERUSS]

How many games did that series go again? Who won again? How is it almost a 4 game sweep, if it goes 7 games. You praise Magic, who was great but you criticize Bird, who was also great and carried his team to the championship.

After their rookie year, there were many experts saying if the Lakers had Bird instead of Magic, they might have only lost 9 or 10 games.

I will recap the '84 Finals for you again...

Game 1: LA builds huge lead in the 3rd quarter, and coasts to win.

Game 2: LA has the lead, and the ball...with 18 seconds left. Worthy throws an errant and ill-advised cross-court pass with Magic standing right next to him. Boston miraculously ties the game, and ekes out an OT win.

Game 3: LA just obliterates the Celtics...137-104 (enough said.)

Game 4: LA has a five point lead with 41 seconds left. Magic uncharacteristically missed TWO FTs, and Worthy missed one, in the last 40 seconds. Boston ties the game, and again, ekes out an OT win.


Sorry, but ONE pass, and ONE missed FT away from a SWEEP. Furthermore, if only ONE of those events occurs, and LA wins the series in six.


As far as Bird leading LA to better records...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Magic was FAR better in POST-SEASON play. He was also better in H2H play. And his CAREER was better. And his POST-SEASON success was better.

Post-season play...

Bird slightly better in '81, slightly better in '84, and considerably better in '86. Magic considerably better in '80, '82, slightly better in '83, considerably better in '85, way better in '87, way better in '88...and after that...well, needless to say... MUCH better in '89, 90, and '91.

Hell, Bird had some AWFUL post-season runs, especially from '80 thru '83...and again, from '88 on. And even in his '85 and '87 Finals, he was nowhere near as dominant as Magic was.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Isiah strength was that he totally exploded in important playoff games to double his average, to get 20 points in a quarter, 16 straight points, 12 points in two minutes, or have a supreme level shootouts and have very little very bad moments -that's Isiah. That's not Bird or Magic.
No doubt. Isiah was money in crunch-time, which is why I would probably put him in my first tier of clutch players, along with Bird/Jordan/Magic.

Bird though? Guy probably made around 30 gamewinners and/or buzzer beating shots throughout his career with more than a handful of meaningful playoff games (steal by Bird, underneath to DJ and he lays it in!!). Everyone remembers him humiliating Isiah and the Pistons with that steal, but what about the legendary bankshot against the '81 Sixers in G7 or the fadeaway jumper over Magic in G4 of the '84 Finals? In the regular season? Forget about it - he did this ROUTINELY.

[eliteballer]

Isiah strength was that he totally exploded in important playoff games to double his average, to get 20 points in a quarter, 16 straight points, 12 points in two minutes, or have a supreme level shootouts and have very little very bad moments -that's Isiah. That's not Bird or Magic.

It's just standing out to you more because Bird and Magic have way more exposure on the big playoff stages.

[colts19]

I will recap the '84 Finals for you again...

Game 1: LA builds huge lead in the 3rd quarter, and coasts to win.

Game 2: LA has the lead, and the ball...with 18 seconds left. Worthy throws an errant and ill-advised cross-court pass with Magic standing right next to him. Boston miraculously ties the game, and ekes out an OT win.

Game 3: LA just obliterates the Celtics...137-104 (enough said.)

Game 4: LA has a five point lead with 41 seconds left. Magic uncharacteristically missed TWO FTs, and Worthy missed one, in the last 40 seconds. Boston ties the game, and again, ekes out an OT win.


Sorry, but ONE pass, and ONE missed FT away from a SWEEP. Furthermore, if only ONE of those events occurs, and LA wins the series in six.


As far as Bird leading LA to better records...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Magic was FAR better in POST-SEASON play. He was also better in H2H play. And his CAREER was better. And his POST-SEASON success was better.

Hell, Bird had some AWFUL post-season runs, especially from '80 thru '83...and again, from '88 on. And even in his '85 and '87 Finals, he was nowhere near as dominant as Magic was.

You don't need to recap anything for me since I watched the 84 series. Guess what things happen throughout the game that effect the outcome. It was still a seven game series, not a 4 game series and the Celtics won. What part of that don't you comprehend. Damn Dude give it up. Go back to telling everyone how Wilt was never to blame for any of the games he lost.

Better in post season because he had the better players. Better in H2H because he had KAJ. How in the world did Bird win 3 straight MVP's if Magic was so much better their whole career.

[LAZERUSS]

You don't need to recap anything for me since I watched the 84 series. Guess what things happen throughout the game that effect the outcome. It was still a seven game series, not a 4 game series and the Celtics won. What part of that don't you comprehend. Damn Dude give it up. Go back to telling everyone how Wilt was never to blame for any of the games he lost.

Better in post season because he had the better players. Better in H2H because he had KAJ. How in the world did Bird win 3 straight MVP's if Magic was so much better their whole career.

KAJ was way-past-his prime for much of Magic's career. Magic won a ring in '87, with KAJ as nothing more than a third-wheel, and whose minutes could easily have been replaced by Thompson and Green...and then another ring in '88 when Kareem was basically worthless. Hell, he won a clinching title game in '80 with Kareem watching from his couch.

Bird was the best player in the league from '84 thru '86, albeit, Magic was better in the '85 post-season and Finals. And again, from '80 thru '83, Magic was clearly the better post-season player. And, from '87 on thru '91, Magic was running away from Bird in MVP voting, post-season play, and team success...and the last two years of that withOUT Kareem.

Oh, and better in post-season, not because he had better players...but because he MADE them better players. How much team success did Kareem and Worthy have withOUT Magic in their career's?

[LAZERUSS]

Same shit different day. Who won the damn series. You can always pick and choose things that could have changed the outcome. It still comes down to who won. If wilt had a team that scored 7 more points he would have had 11 Rings. Pick and choose however you want but Wilt only won 2 rings so no matter how you pick and choose it is what it is.

Picking and choosing will not change History.

How's this for picking and choosing. I Bird had gone the Lakers and play with KAJ, he would have won at least 7 rings.
Why because I said so.

BTW, why did YOU bring WILT into this topic?

:facepalm

[Pointguard]

No doubt. Isiah was money in crunch-time, which is why I would probably put him in my first tier of clutch players, along with Bird/Jordan/Magic.

Bird though? Guy probably made around 30 gamewinners and/or buzzer beating shots throughout his career with more than a handful of meaningful playoff games (steal by Bird, underneath to DJ and he lays it in!!). Everyone remembers him humiliating Isiah and the Pistons with that steal, but what about the legendary bankshot against the '81 Sixers in G7 or the fadeaway jumper over Magic in G4 of the '84 Finals? In the regular season? Forget about it - he did this ROUTINELY.
If you count regular season, I'm sure Bird wins out. The different thing about Isiah was that the defense geared up for him alone at times and he still went crazy.

[dankok8]

KAJ was way-past-his prime for much of Magic's career. Magic won a ring in '87, with KAJ as nothing more than a third-wheel, and whose minutes could easily have been replaced by Thompson and Green...and then another ring in '88 when Kareem was basically worthless. Hell, he won a clinching title game in '80 with Kareem watching from his couch.

Bird was the best player in the league from '84 thru '86, albeit, Magic was better in the '85 post-season and Finals. And again, from '80 thru '83, Magic was clearly the better post-season player. And, from '87 on thru '91, Magic was running away from Bird in MVP voting, post-season play, and team success...and the last two years of that withOUT Kareem.

Oh, and better in post-season, not because he had better players...but because he MADE them better players. How much team success did Kareem and Worthy have withOUT Magic in their career's?

More than Magic without Kareem. :oldlol:

Seriously though Bird was better than Magic from 1980-1986 and then Magic was better from 1987-1991. Overall for their careers Magic gets the edge because after 1988 he was just way better because of Bird's injuries. His career was practically 3 years longer.

But there is no way any neutral fan from that era would definitively call either guy better than the other. You're trying to twist history to fit your agenda. Virtually any credible all time list has them side by side. There is a reason for that...

[LAZERUSS]

More than Magic without Kareem. :oldlol:

Seriously though Bird was better than Magic from 1980-1986 and then Magic was better from 1987-1991. Overall for their careers Magic gets the edge because after 1988 he was just way better because of Bird's injuries. His career was practically 3 years longer.

But there is no way any neutral fan from that era would definitively call either guy better than the other. You're trying to twist history to fit your agenda. Virtually any credible all time list has them side by side. There is a reason for that...

Magic's career winning percentage, withOUT Kareem... .743. Even in their 10 years in the league together...in the game's Magic missed, and Kareem played... 61-40, or a .603 percentage. In the game's that KAJ missed, and Magic played... 24-8...or a .750.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you count regular season, I'm sure Bird wins out. The different thing about Isiah was that the defense geared up for him alone at times and he still went crazy.
I don't think performing better in the postseaon was exclusive to Isiah, at least not when comparing him to Bird (nor were defenses anymore geared for him, considering the scorer Dantley was and all) They both had their share of memorable moments, although Bird had more clutch shots and key plays just by sheer volume.

[Pointguard]

More than Magic without Kareem. :oldlol:
Seriously though Bird was better than Magic from 1980-1986 and then Magic was better from 1987-1991. Overall for their careers Magic gets the edge because after 1988 he was just way better because of Bird's injuries. His career was practically 3 years longer.

1980-83 Magic was better than Bird. He was just too much better in the post season for it to be ignored. He was also a better offensive rebounder at that time. He was way more efficient. MJ was the most versatile player in the game.

[Pointguard]

I don't think performing better in the postseaon was exclusive to Isiah, at least not when comparing him to Bird. They both had their share of memorable moments, although Bird had more clutch shots and key plays just by sheer volume.
But he had more bad moments in the postseason as well. There is a take away factor as well.

[LAZERUSS]

1980-83 Magic was better than Bird. He was just too much better in the post season for it to be ignored. He was also a better offensive rebounder at that time. He was way more efficient. MJ was the most versatile player in the game.

:applause:

Magic's '80 and '82 FMVPs blows away anything Bird did in '80 thru '83. And Magic was clearly better in the '83 post-season, as well. I do give Bird an edge in '81, but his Finals were not something to be too proud of (15 ppg on a .419 FG%.)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But he had more bad moments in the postseason as well. There is a take away factor as well.
That's true, but irregardless of the "take away factor" (it doesn't makeup for the HUGE gap), Bird simply had more game-winners and key moments in big games.

I'd be open to challenge anyone (off the top) that says otherwise. Hah

[LAZERUSS]

That's true, but irregardless of the "take away factor", Bird simply had more game-winners and key moments in big games.

I'd be open to challenge anyone (off the top) that says otherwise. Hah

Bird also had several post-season meltdowns, as well. I can post them all if you need the proof.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bird also had several post-season meltdowns, as well. I can post them all if you need the proof.
I'm well aware of his postseason "meltdowns". I can counter them w/ many from Jordan, Isiah and Magic as well. MANY.

Same with your boy, Wilt. That's not what this is about though.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm well aware of his postseason "meltdowns". I can counter them w/ many from Jordan, Isiah and Magic as well. MANY.

Same with your boy, Wilt. That's not what this is about though.

What is your definition of a Wilt "meltdown?" A 20-20-5-8 .500 FG% series, and in a series in which he limits his opposing HOF center to a way-below average FG%, all while pounding him on the glass?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What is your definition of a Wilt "meltdown?" A 20-20-5-8 .500 FG% series, and in a series in which he limits his opposing HOF center to a way-below average FG%, all while pounding him on the glass?
You're welcome to bump one of your many Wilt threads, and I can debate you in there. Lets not derail this one.

[LAZERUSS]

You're welcome to bump one your many Wilt threads, and I can debate you in there. Lets not derail this one.

Well, just keep in mind that YOU mentioned Wilt (albeit, you weren't the first to blatantly throw him into a topic that has nothing to do with him.)

In any case, Wilt's very few "meltdowns" were FAR more productive than Bird's many post-season "flop" jobs.

[dankok8]

I remember we discussed this before on another thread but in the first few years Magic was considered far behind Bird. Don't believe me?

Surely if Magic was that good the league would have given him the regular season accolades after he won the 1980 Finals MVP. Truth is Magic didn't deserve that award (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909). Even NBAstats.net has this incident where the press changed their votes from Kareem to Magic on their Finals MVP voting spreadsheet.

In 1982 the Lakers in the finals played a perfect team game. It was an ensemble effort and any of Wilkes, Kareem, Nixon, McAdoo, or Magic could have won that award and no one could complain. Truth is Magic's finals accolades could not be any less convincing in those early years. It was a classic case of favoritism in one and "let's give it to the most popular guy" in the other. I'd be the first to argue that Magic should have been the Finals MVP in 1988. He was totally robbed but that's a whole other discussion.


1980

Bird: 4th in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, Rookie of the Year
Magic: N/A in MVP voting, no All-NBA selection, distant 2nd in Rookie of the Year race

1981

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA
Magic: 11th in MVP voting, no All-NBA selection

1982

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense
Magic: 8th in MVP voting, 2nd Team All-NBA

1983

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense
Magic: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA


They only became comparable as players in 1982-1983. Maybe someone could make a case that Magic had a better year here especially considering Bird's injuries and flu in the playoffs.

From 1983-1984 to 1985-1986 we already know Bird was better.

Magic finally took over as a better player in 1986-1987 but even then it was close until Bird broke his back in 1988 and was never the same again.

[LAZERUSS]

I remember we discussed this before on another thread but in the first few years Magic was considered far behind Bird. Don't believe me?

Surely if Magic was that good the league would have given him the regular season accolades after he won the 1980 Finals MVP. Truth is Magic didn't deserve that award (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909). Even NBAstats.net has this incident where the press changed their votes from Kareem to Magic on their Finals MVP voting spreadsheet.

In 1982 the Lakers in the finals played a perfect team game. It was an ensemble effort and any of Wilkes, Kareem, Nixon, McAdoo, or Magic could have won that award and no one could complain. Truth is Magic's finals accolades could not be any less convincing in those early years. It was a classic case of favoritism in one and "let's give it to the most popular guy" in the other. I'd be the first to argue that Magic should have been the Finals MVP in 1988. He was totally robbed but that's a whole other discussion.


1980

Bird: 4th in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, Rookie of the Year
Magic: N/A in MVP voting, no All-NBA selection, distant 2nd in Rookie of the Year race

1981

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA
Magic: 11th in MVP voting, no All-NBA selection

1982

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense
Magic: 8th in MVP voting, 2nd Team All-NBA

1983

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense
Magic: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA


They only became comparable as players in 1982-1983. Maybe someone could make a case that Magic had a better year here especially considering Bird's injuries and flu in the playoffs.

From 1983-1984 to 1985-1986 we already know Bird was better.

Magic finally took over as a better player in 1986-1987 but even then it was close until Bird broke his back in 1988 and was never the same again.

If the MVP voting had been done at the end of the Finals, I can assure you that Magic would have easily out-voted Bird in '80, and '82. And as bad as Bird was in his '83 post-season, Magic likely would have outvoted him in that season, as well.

I have conceded that Bird was the better player from '84 thru '86, but again, in the '85 post-season, Magic was clearly better.


As for the '80 FMVP...KAJ missed the BIGGEST game of the series. Had he PLAYED, even poorly, he would have won the award. BUT, Magic's performance, on the road, was truly amazing. Furthermore, his numbers weren't far behind KAJ's either. He shot a much higher FG%, and and an even higher TS% in that series, and overall, a 22-11-9 .573 .875 Finals was DESERVING of the award.

And in '82, EVERYONE who watched that series had MAGIC as THE best player. As for Kareem in that series...McAdoo basically equaled his numbers in far less minutes.

[LAZERUSS]

On more time...

Better in the post-season...

Bird: '81, '84, and '86

Magic: '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88... '89, '90, and '91.

Anyone care to argue...

Oh, and how would their career resumes look if "Big Game James' hadn't made that one errant pass in game two of the '84 Finals...

Well, here is what it would look like...

Bird: 5 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP

Magic: 9 Finals, 6 rings, 4 FMVPs (and robbed of another FMVP in '88.)

[dunksby]

Magic is the luckiest player among all-time greats, what ifs should be reserved for a guy like Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, for those that use the "injury excuse" for Bird...

how about the "inexperience excuse" for Magic?

Bird was 23 in his rookie season....Magic, 20.

Bird hit his peak at age 29, Magic at 27.

By the time Magic hit age 23, he had been to three Finals, won two rings, and two FMVPs...Bird...zero, zero, and zero.

[Dr.J4ever]

I remember we discussed this before on another thread but in the first few years Magic was considered far behind Bird. Don't believe me?

Surely if Magic was that good the league would have given him the regular season accolades after he won the 1980 Finals MVP. Truth is Magic didn't deserve that award (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909). Even NBAstats.net has this incident where the press changed their votes from Kareem to Magic on their Finals MVP voting spreadsheet.

In 1982 the Lakers in the finals played a perfect team game. It was an ensemble effort and any of Wilkes, Kareem, Nixon, McAdoo, or Magic could have won that award and no one could complain. Truth is Magic's finals accolades could not be any less convincing in those early years. It was a classic case of favoritism in one and "let's give it to the most popular guy" in the other. I'd be the first to argue that Magic should have been the Finals MVP in 1988. He was totally robbed but that's a whole other discussion.


1980

Bird: 4th in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, Rookie of the Year
Magic: N/A in MVP voting, no All-NBA selection, distant 2nd in Rookie of the Year race

1981

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA
Magic: 11th in MVP voting, no All-NBA selection

1982

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense
Magic: 8th in MVP voting, 2nd Team All-NBA

1983

Bird: 2nd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense
Magic: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA


They only became comparable as players in 1982-1983. Maybe someone could make a case that Magic had a better year here especially considering Bird's injuries and flu in the playoffs.

From 1983-1984 to 1985-1986 we already know Bird was better.

Magic finally took over as a better player in 1986-1987 but even then it was close until Bird broke his back in 1988 and was never the same again.

This is pretty much spot on.

During the very early 80s, it's a forgotten fact of history that the talk of best overall player in the game was really about Bird/Erving, not Magic.

The Lakers were led by Kareem and that was that. Mid to upper 80s, it became Magic's team as the NBA started marketing the Laker/Celtic series and Magic/Bird which didn't really start 'till the 1984 Finals.

[StephHamann]

BTW, for those that use the "injury excuse" for Bird...

how about the "inexperience excuse" for Magic?

Bird was 23 in his rookie season....Magic, 20.

Bird hit his peak at age 29, Magic at 27.

By the time Magic hit age 23, he had been to three Finals, won two rings, and two FMVPs...Bird...zero, zero, and zero.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3512149/monkey-sniff-o.gif

[Odinn]

Like there is a person that doesn't know Lazeruss' (jlauber's) agenda about Wilt.

Magic is the one that made Kareem big. So Magic > Kareem. And Kareem is nowhere near of Wilt.
He tries to glorify Magic so he can discredit Kareem, so his beloved Wilt would be able to looked greater than Kareem.

I'm truly surprised that this thread got more than 60 responds.

[Hey Yo]

If the MVP voting had been done at the end of the Finals, I can assure you that Magic would have easily out-voted Bird in '80, and '82. And as bad as Bird was in his '83 post-season, Magic likely would have outvoted him in that season, as well.

I have conceded that Bird was the better player from '84 thru '86, but again, in the '85 post-season, Magic was clearly better.


As for the '80 FMVP...KAJ missed the BIGGEST game of the series. Had he PLAYED, even poorly, he would have won the award. BUT, Magic's performance, on the road, was truly amazing. Furthermore, his numbers weren't far behind KAJ's either. He shot a much higher FG%, and and an even higher TS% in that series, and overall, a 22-11-9 .573 .875 Finals was DESERVING of the award.

And in '82, EVERYONE who watched that series had MAGIC as THE best player. As for Kareem in that series...McAdoo basically equaled his numbers in far less minutes.
Don't forget that Jamal Wilkes put up 37pts in that closing Finals game. People like to believe that Magic had to do it all w/o leader KAJ, but that simply wasn't the case.

[LAZERUSS]

This is pretty much spot on.

During the very early 80s, it's a forgotten fact of history that the talk of best overall player in the game was really about Bird/Erving, not Magic.

The Lakers were led by Kareem and that was that. Mid to upper 80s, it became Magic's team as the NBA started marketing the Laker/Celtic series and Magic/Bird which didn't really start 'till the 1984 Finals.

Not true at all.

If we are using MVP voting in these discussions...

From their third year until their final season, in their ten seasons in the NBA together...Magic outvoted KAJ every year (eight straight seasons.)

And you really can't count Magic's second season, either...since he missed half of the year.

In any case, after Magic's second season, the Lakers threw all their eggs into Magic's basket, and awarded him a huge contract.

[LAZERUSS]

Don't forget that Jamal Wilkes put up 37pts in that closing Finals game. People like to believe that Magic had to do it all w/o leader KAJ, but that simply wasn't the case.

Before the start of that game six, I believe it was Russell who commented something along the lines of...how are the Lakers going replace KAJs 33 ppg and 14 rpg?

Well, Magic not only hung 42 (on 14-23 from the field and 14-14 from the line), he was CLEARLY the game's best rebounder. He grabbed 15, and the next best player had 10.

One thing is clear...had Magic been intent on pure scoring...he was certainly capable of 30 ppg (and on high efficiency.)

[Dr.J4ever]

LAZERUSS]Before the start of that game six, I believe it was Russell who commented something along the lines of...how are the Lakers going replace KAJs 33 ppg and 14 rpg?

Well, Magic not only hung 42 (on 14-23 from the field and 14-14 from the line), he was CLEARLY the game's best rebounder. He grabbed 15, and the next best player had 10.

One thing is clear...had Magic been intent on pure scoring...he was certainly capable of 30 ppg (and on high efficiency.)[/QUOTE]

Nah, I don't think he could have ever averaged 30ppg.

Wasn't his game. That game 6 was a fluke game. Years later, Magic still said that was the best game he ever played.

The 76ers weren't prepared for small ball and the Lakers took advantage. You really think if they replayed the series with no Kaj and with that same young Magic that the Lakers would win in a series? No way, the 76ers would have adjusted their defense and the Lakers would have played with more pressure.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS]Before the start of that game six, I believe it was Russell who commented something along the lines of...how are the Lakers going replace KAJs 33 ppg and 14 rpg?

Well, Magic not only hung 42 (on 14-23 from the field and 14-14 from the line), he was CLEARLY the game's best rebounder. He grabbed 15, and the next best player had 10.

One thing is clear...had Magic been intent on pure scoring...he was certainly capable of 30 ppg (and on high efficiency.)

Nah, I don't think he could have ever averaged 30ppg.

Wasn't his game. That game 6 was a fluke game. Years later, Magic still said that was the best game he ever played.

The 76ers weren't prepared for small ball and the Lakers took advantage. You really think if they replayed the series with no Kaj and with that same young Magic that the Lakers would win in a series? No way, the 76ers would have adjusted their defense and the Lakers would have played with more pressure.

Magic had stretches in his career, even early on, where he would string 30 even an occasional 40 point game. Later in his career, those strings grew. For instance, in his 86-87 season, he had a 15 game streak of 34, 38, 46, 30, 28, 4, 32, 26, 20, 25, 38, 26, 31, 26, and 42 points. Of course, that 4 point game came in 29 minutes, and on 4 FGAs (and with 18 assists.) AND, as amazing as that "streak" was, think about this...he averaged 11.5 apg in that same span.

Hell, in his 89-90 playoff series against the Suns, when it became obvious that his teammates were being thoroughly outplayed by their counter-parts, he hung back-to-back 43 point games (both on 15-26 shooting.) For the series, he averaged 30.2 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 12.2 apg, .500 FG%, and a .911 FT%.

Incidently, in their career H2H's...guess which player had the highest scoring game...Bird, or Magic? Yep...Magic...and it was the TWO highest BTW, of 39, and 37 points.

[Dr.J4ever]

Hey Laz, here's what then CBS analyst Bill Russell said pre Game 6:

However, CBS commentator--and 11-time NBA champion--Bill Russell cautioned that game six would be very challenging for the 76ers even without Abdul-Jabbar: "This is a distortion for both teams. I think that the pressure is on Philadelphia because they have to play this team. In other words, you can talk about Kareem in or out--it doesn't make any difference. He's not here and they've got to beat this Laker team that they are putting on the floor. Now, putting Magic Johnson at center is going to create some problems. What kind of problems? We'll have to wait and see. There are going to be some adjustments by both teams. How well Philadelphia adjusts to beating this team is what's going to count. The Lakers have got it pretty easy in that they've got nothing to lose." By "nothing to lose," Russell presumably meant (1) the Lakers might not feel pressure because the 76ers were considered the favorites at home with Abdul-Jabbar out of action and (2) the seventh game, if necessary, would be played in L.A. and it would be reasonable to expect that Abdul-Jabbar would be available.

[Dr.J4ever]

Magic had stretches in his career, even early on, where he would string 30 even an occasional 40 point game. Later in his career, those strings grew. For instance, in his 86-87 season, he had a 15 game streak of 34, 38, 46, 30, 28, 4, 32, 26, 20, 25, 38, 26, 31, 26, and 42 points. Of course, that 4 point game came in 29 minutes, and on 4 FGAs (and with 18 assists.) AND, as amazing as that "streak" was, think about this...he averaged 11.5 apg in that same span.

Hell, in his 89-90 playoff series against the Suns, when it became obvious that his teammates were being thoroughly outplayed by their counter-parts, he hung back-to-back 43 point games (both on 15-26 shooting.) For the series, he averaged 30.2 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 12.2 apg, .500 FG%, and a .911 FT%.

Incidently, in their career H2H's...guess which player had the highest scoring game...Bird, or Magic? Yep...Magic...and it was the TWO highest BTW, of 39, and 37 points.
Magic became a better scorer later in the 80s no question.

Never saw as too much of a scoring threat especially early 80s. I told you Cheeks would guard him, and then Clint Richardson would guard him off the bench. It was Kaj who killed us.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic became a better scorer later in the 80s no question.

Never saw as too much of a scoring threat especially early 80s. I told you Cheeks would guard him, and then Clint Richardson would guard him off the bench. It was Kaj who killed us.

KAJ didn't "kill" Philly in the '82 or '83 Finals. In fact, he was butchered in the '83 Finals..by the "Kareem Killer."

[Mr Feeny]

Before the start of that game six, I believe it was Russell who commented something along the lines of...how are the Lakers going replace KAJs 33 ppg and 14 rpg?

Well, Magic not only hung 42 (on 14-23 from the field and 14-14 from the line), he was CLEARLY the game's best rebounder. He grabbed 15, and the next best player had 10.

One thing is clear...had Magic been intent on pure scoring...he was certainly capable of 30 ppg (and on high efficiency.)

Err....because he had one good scoring game?
Are you an idiot? Are you on here trying to humiliate yourself?
I'm seriously asking you this.

[Pointguard]

Magic did get 24ppg with 12 assist shooting 522% on 16 shots per game. If he goes for 7 assist per game and takes those five extra shots on the break or in the post. 30ppg isn't crazy at all. Magic would always reward defensive play with an assist as some personal rule. But if he was needed to score I recall a series of 30 point games. And his position wasn't designated at point for like four years. He was very versatile and could do many things. For the first 3 or 4 years he was a better offensive rebounder than Bird. His game could morph into many different roles. If he came in needing to be a different player he would have been a different player.

[LAZERUSS]

Err....because he had one good scoring game?
Are you an idiot? Are you on here trying to humiliate yourself?
I'm seriously asking you this.

So YOU are claiming that Magic only had ONE "good" scoring game in his career?

Talk about humiliating yourself.

And for the record...here was Magic's six game stat-line in the '80 Finals:

22-11-9 .573, .875, .635.

A near TRIPLE-DOUBLE series, and on a staggering efficiency.

And again, if he had NEEDED to SCORE more...take a look at that clinching game six again.

[stanlove1111]

KAJ didn't "kill" Philly in the '82 or '83 Finals. In fact, he was butchered in the '83 Finals..by the "Kareem Killer."


Watch at the 2:30 mark where Billy C comments..Jabbar was the best half court offensive player ever..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTuE6XlDhms

[LAZERUSS]

Watch at the 2:30 mark where Billy C comments..Jabbar was the best half court offensive player ever..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTuE6XlDhms

And yet, he was outplayed by Moses in '81, and murdered by him in '83.

Just another example of an empty comment.

[necya]

And yet, he was outplayed by Moses in '81, and murdered by him in '83.

Just another example of an empty comment.

:wtf: the hospital and charity thing
you have no shame, exposing yourself like that ? no knowledges okay but no dignity ??

[BIZARRO]

Was a big Bird fan in the 80's, and peak Bird can certainly be argued over Magic.

As it stands though, my top 3:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt (Higher than Kareem, as I'm sure you'll be happy to know my friend) :D

So Magic would still be #2 to me with the 6th chip, but it would be a more definitive #2.

[LAZERUSS]

:wtf: the hospital and charity thing
you have no shame, exposing yourself like that ? no knowledges okay but no dignity ??

"No knowledge..."

Moses outscored, out-rebounded KAJ, and held him to a.462 FG% in the '81 playoffs...all while leading his 40-40 team over KAJ's 54-28 team.

Then, in the '83 Finals...outscored Kareem, and outrebounded him by TEN rpg in the Finals...in a sweeping series win.

And over the course of their 40 career H2H's, it was much more of the same.

Moses "the Kareem Killer" Malone.

[GimmeThat]

Without reading and knowing much about the lakers players personality back then.

I cant help but wonder if it has anything to do with how those offseasons were spent.



Because I dont think that as a team, they anticipated as to how the league were changing with its personnel and what not, because im unaware if there was a head coach worth mentioning during those runs.

[dankok8]

Agree that Magic had a better postseason in 1980 and 1983.

In 1982 I don't buy it. Against the Sixers...

Magic: 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 8.0 apg on 53.5% shooting
Bird: 18.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 7.3 apg on 41.2% shooting

Magic shot better from the field but Bird rebounded much better, played better defense, and had an unlucky distinction of being directly matched up with Dr J for much of that series.

Considering this was the most important and only competitive series for both players, I wouldn't give either player an edge. The 1982 Lakers were like the 1973 Knicks or the 2004 Pistons in the Finals. The whole team was on and they buried the opposing team on offense. No one player stood above the pack. By the way Kareem played great D in that series and was facing a lot of double teams because he completely torched Philly in the regular season. Magic was a masterful floor general no doubt about it.

In 1985 Bird got injured in Game 4 of the ECF... until then over two and a half rounds he averaged 28.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and 6.2 apg on 48.5% shooting. He was league MVP and by far the best player on his own team. Again I don't buy that Magic was better especially considering his choke in the finals. If he had the kind of performance he did in 1987 then yes but with his 1985 performance. No...

As far as postseason play I'd say:

1980: Magic
1981: Bird
1982: Wash
1983: Magic
1984: Bird
1985: Wash
1986: Bird
1987: Magic
1988: Magic

Until Bird's injuries derailed him they were pretty neck and neck but over the course of the entire seasons Bird was clearly the better player until 1986-1987 season.

[dankok8]

As for Moses "the Kareem killer" that's only really true in the 1981-1982 and 1982-1983 season including the 1983 finals. Kareem played Moses very well in other years.

In the 1981 playoffs Kareem decisively outplayed Moses in the pivotal Game 3 and for much of the series they weren't even matched up with each other.

[LAZERUSS]

Agree that Magic had a better postseason in 1980 and 1983.

In 1982 I don't buy it. Against the Sixers...

Magic: 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 8.0 apg on 53.5% shooting
Bird: 18.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 7.3 apg on 41.2% shooting

Magic shot better from the field but Bird rebounded much better, played better defense, and had an unlucky distinction of being directly matched up with Dr J for much of that series.

Considering this was the most important and only competitive series for both players, I wouldn't give either player an edge. The 1982 Lakers were like the 1973 Knicks or the 2004 Pistons in the Finals. The whole team was on and they buried the opposing team on offense. No one player stood above the pack. By the way Kareem played great D in that series and was facing a lot of double teams because he completely torched Philly in the regular season. Magic was a masterful floor general no doubt about it.

In 1985 Bird got injured in Game 4 of the ECF... until then over two and a half rounds he averaged 28.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and 6.2 apg on 48.5% shooting. He was league MVP and by far the best player on his own team. Again I don't buy that Magic was better especially considering his choke in the finals. If he had the kind of performance he did in 1987 then yes but with his 1985 performance. No...

As far as postseason play I'd say:

1980: Magic
1981: Bird
1982: Wash
1983: Magic
1984: Bird
1985: Wash
1986: Bird
1987: Magic
1988: Magic

Until Bird's injuries derailed him they were pretty neck and neck but over the course of the entire seasons Bird was clearly the better player until 1986-1987 season.

Actually Magic DID defend Dr. J., and in fact, battered him on the glass in the '82 Finals...

http://www.si.com/vault/1982/06/14/624618/the-lakers-danced-up-a-storm


And just as they had in the previous game, the Lakers assigned Wilkes to cover Toney and put Johnson on Erving. Toney shot 11 for 25 and was never a factor. And while Dr. J got his points—25 on 11-of-15 shooting—Magic was able to keep him away from the boards. Erving had damaged the Lakers with 23 rebounds in the first two games, but in Los Angeles he was held to three in each game.

Putting Magic on the Doctor two years ago, when the Lakers won the championship series also against the Sixers, would have been unthinkable. But this is a different Johnson, not so much Magic as just plain Earvin Johnson Jr. He finished the 1981-82 regular season with more than 700 rebounds and 700 assists, the first player since Wilt Chamberlain in 1967-68 to do so, and he has downplayed the tinsel and glitter that once characterized his game. "There isn't the excitement of his rookie year," Riley says. "Then it was like going to Disneyland every day. Now he comes in and punches the clock like an old pro. But he's still our emotional catalyst. Everybody tunes into him. We struggle when he goes out of the game."


Again:

'80 Magic
'81 Bird (but neither he, nor Magic were particularly good)
'82 Magic by a mile
'83 Magic easily (hell, Bird folded his tent in a sweeping 2nd round loss with HCA)
'84 Bird (but Magic was ONE PASS away from another ring and another FMVP)
'85 Magic easily
'86 Bird solidly
'87 Magic by a mile
'88 Magic by a mile

'89 Magic
'90 Magic
'91 Magic

CLEARLY Magic was the better player from '80 thru '83, while Bird had an edge from '84 thru '86 (but again, Magic was considerably greater in the '85 Finals)

And of course, from there it gets REALLY interesting..

Bird had the two greatest regular seasons of his career in '86-87 and '87-88 (especially '87-88), and yet, Magic won an overwhelming MVP in '87, and then was MILES better than Bird in the '88 post-season. While Bird waved the white towel against the Pistons in '88, Magic DESTROYED them in the Finals (and even with Kareem doing everything in his power to blow the Finals.)

After '88...well, Magic went on to win another MVP, lead two Kareem-less teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22, and take an injury-riddled team to the Finals in his last season.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird was nowhere near the post-season player that Magic was from '80 thru '83.

And he was clearly nowhere near the post-season player that Magic was from '87 thru '91, either.

Bird had a slightly better post-season run from '84 thru '86 (again, Magic was better H2H in the '85 Finals)...

but how a dose of REALITY with Bird here...

Colts18:


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

BTW, I highlighted Bird's '82 post-season run, which unfortunately for him, wasn't even his worst. Magic was a FAR greater force in the '82 post-season.

Pretty pathetic post-season runs for much of his post-season career.

[dankok8]

Come on LAZERUSS take things in context. The Celtics-Sixers series of the early 80's were some of the most physical basketball I've ever seen if not the MOST PHYSICAL. Those were rugged defensive series and Philly threw the kitchen sink at Bird including Julius Erving, Bobby Jones, and Caldwell Jones. Tiny Archibald went down to injury in Game 3 and didn't play from then on. Tiny being an all-star guard that was a huge loss for Boston! Philly took a 3-1 lead (as in 1981 when Boston stormed back) and then Bird led the Celtics back in the series to a 3-3 tie with very strong performances. In Game 7 Andrew Toney exploded in the Garden earning him the nickname "The Boston Straggler", one of the all time great performances. Choker Bird had 20 points, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists.

Using Magic's defense on Erving is a very poor point. Yes I watched that series and Magic was on him at times and Dr J scored on him with impunity. The Doctor averaged 25.0 ppg, 8.2 rpg, and 3.3 apg on 54.3% shooting.

So basically one was a tough hard-nosed defensive series:

Bird: 18.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 7.3 apg on 41.2% shooting
Erving: 19.0 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.7 apg on 45.3% shooting

The other was an open-court track meet:

Magic: 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 8.0 apg on 53.5% shooting
Erving: 25.0 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 3.3 apg on 54.3% shooting


Again Magic and Bird played their only competitive series in that postseason against Philly. Both guys put up about the same numbers but Bird had the more difficult match-up both offensively and defensively. I don't see how anyone can say edge Magic for that postseason. Based on what?

[LAZERUSS]

Come on LAZERUSS take things in context. The Celtics-Sixers series of the early 80's were some of the most physical basketball I've ever seen if not the MOST PHYSICAL. Those were rugged defensive series and Philly threw the kitchen sink at Bird including Julius Erving, Bobby Jones, and Caldwell Jones. Tiny Archibald went down to injury in Game 3 and didn't play from then on. Tiny being an all-star guard that was a huge loss for Boston! Philly took a 3-1 lead (as in 1981 when Boston stormed back) and then Bird led the Celtics back in the series to a 3-3 tie with very strong performances. In Game 7 Andrew Toney exploded in the Garden earning him the nickname "The Boston Straggler", one of the all time great performances. Choker Bird had 20 points, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists.

Using Magic's defense on Erving is a very poor point. Yes I watched that series and Magic was on him at times and Dr J scored on him with impunity. The Doctor averaged 25.0 ppg, 8.2 rpg, and 3.3 apg on 54.3% shooting.

So basically one was a tough hard-nosed defensive series:

Bird: 18.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 7.3 apg on 41.2% shooting
Erving: 19.0 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.7 apg on 45.3% shooting

The other was an open-court track meet:

Magic: 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 8.0 apg on 53.5% shooting
Erving: 25.0 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 3.3 apg on 54.3% shooting


Again Magic and Bird played their only competitive series in that postseason against Philly. Both guys put up about the same numbers but Bird had the more difficult match-up both offensively and defensively. I don't see how anyone can say edge Magic for that postseason. Based on what?

I watched the '82 Finals as well, my friend, and I can tell you that Magic didn't defend the Dr. until games three and four (and included them in my post above.)

Here were their numbers in those TWO games:

Dr.: 23.0 ppg, 3.0 rpg (yes 3.0!), 4 TOs, 3.5 apg, 0.5 stl, .607 FG%, .667 FT%
Magic: 23.0 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.5 TO, 7.5 apg, 2.0 stl, .667 FG%, .875 FT%.

Magic outplayed Erving in EVERY aspect of the game!


Now, let's get to REALITY...

Only the most deranged Bird-lovers, and most ardent Magic-bashers, would claim that Bird had a greater post-season in '82, than Magic did. Bird shot-jacked his team down the drain against the Sixers, while Magic led his Lakers to a solid win over that same Sixer team, en route to a FMVP.

"Brick-Job" Bird's entire post-season numbers in '82? 17.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 5.6 apg, 1.9 spg, .822 FT%, and on a ...get this... .427 FG%, and a .474 TS%.

Magic's? 17.4 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 9.3 apg, 2.9 spg, .828 FT%, and on a .529 FG%, and a .614 TS%.

[dankok8]

LAZERUSS,

you're using 2 games (out of 6) of the finals to prove something. Games in which Dr J scores 23 ppg and shoots >60% from the floor no less. Speaks volumes of Magic's defense but I digress.

If we go by your logic and look at cumulative numbers head-to-head Bird outplayed the Doctor while Magic did not.

And again you ignore the context...

Bird played Philly in a rough, physical, defensive series where Bird was the primary focus of their defense and had Dr J and both Bobby and Caldwell thrown at him. The Sixers' game plan revolved around stopping Bird.

Meanwhile Magic played Philly in an open court much faster paced series. When in the half court it was Kareem and not Magic that was double and triple teamed. Heck in the 1982 offseason both Philly and San Antonio got Moses and Gilmore to deal with... that's right Kareem!! Jabbar was the focus of opposing defenses not Magic and articles and quotes confirming that were posted by many other posters in past threads.

I'm not saying Magic wasn't a great player. Of course he was and his ability to impose his style of play (open court...) was one of his best qualities. But he wasn't as dominant a player as Larry Bird was until 1987 when he became a better half court scorer and the focus of opposing defenses.

Again in 1982 it's hard to differentiate between Magic and Bird. Their numbers weren't far apart at all and Bird faced much more defensive attention.

Also looking at the entire decade do you dispute that Bird played in a tougher conference with better defensive teams in particular?

[Dr.J4ever]

LAZERUSS,

you're using 2 games (out of 6) of the finals to prove something. Games in which Dr J scores 23 ppg and shoots >60% from the floor no less. Speaks volumes of Magic's defense but I digress.

If we go by your logic and look at cumulative numbers head-to-head Bird outplayed the Doctor while Magic did not.

And again you ignore the context...

Bird played Philly in a rough, physical, defensive series where Bird was the primary focus of their defense and had Dr J and both Bobby and Caldwell thrown at him. The Sixers' game plan revolved around stopping Bird.

Meanwhile Magic played Philly in an open court much faster paced series. When in the half court it was Kareem and not Magic that was double and triple teamed. Heck in the 1982 offseason both Philly and San Antonio got Moses and Gilmore to deal with... that's right Kareem!! Jabbar was the focus of opposing defenses not Magic and articles and quotes confirming that were posted by many other posters in past threads.

I'm not saying Magic wasn't a great player. Of course he was and his ability to impose his style of play (open court...) was one of his best qualities. But he wasn't as dominant a player as Larry Bird was until 1987 when he became a better half court scorer and the focus of opposing defenses.

Again in 1982 it's hard to differentiate between Magic and Bird. Their numbers weren't far apart at all and Bird faced much more defensive attention.

Also looking at the entire decade do you dispute that Bird played in a tougher conference with better defensive teams in particular?

This.

The East was the beast during the 80s. We had the better defensive teams, and the West was more wide open and really only 1 minor threat to the Lakers in San Antonio.

Yes, Houston ended up in the Final 1 year during the early 80s, but that was a Cinderela .500 team that would have surely lost to either Boston or Philly in the Finals, maybe even to Milwaukee.

[Champ]

You could easily flip this equation for Bird.

What if Tiny was healthy against the Sixers in '82? C's were the best team in the league in '81-'82 and would have probably handled the Lakers in the Finals.

Nobody was beating Philly in '83.

Mistakes hurt the Lakers in '84, but to say they gave the series away is a misnomer. The Celtics were the MUCH better team from the second half of game four until the end of the series and probably should have won it in six if it wasn't for some home-cooked officiating. Game 7 was never in doubt.

Fun fact: Before game 7, Bird also said "we should've swept 'em in four."

What if Bird and Maxwell were healthy in '85? Again, the Celtics were the best team in the league throughout the regular season and the favorites going into the Finals.

What if Bias doesn't die after the '86 Finals?

What if McHale and Parish were healthy in '87? What if the Lakers had to face the Pistons in the Conference Finals instead of a 39-43 Seattle team?

What if Bird doesn't have surgery on both heels in '88? What if his back never blows out? What if this stuff still happened, but Bias lived? How many more rings would he have had?

[houston]

interesting magic had his chances

[LAZERUSS]

You could easily flip this equation for Bird.

What if Tiny was healthy against the Sixers in '82? C's were the best team in the league in '81-'82 and would have probably handled the Lakers in the Finals.

Nobody was beating Philly in '83.

Mistakes hurt the Lakers in '84, but to say they gave the series away is a misnomer. The Celtics were the MUCH better team from the second half of game four until the end of the series and probably should have won it in six if it wasn't for some home-cooked officiating. Game 7 was never in doubt.

Fun fact: Before game 7, Bird also said "we should've swept 'em in four."

What if Bird and Maxwell were healthy in '85? Again, the Celtics were the best team in the league throughout the regular season and the favorites going into the Finals.

What if Bias doesn't die after the '86 Finals?

What if McHale and Parish were healthy in '87? What if the Lakers had to face the Pistons in the Conference Finals instead of a 39-43 Seattle team?

What if Bird doesn't have surgery on both heels in '88? What if his back never blows out? What if this stuff still happened, but Bias lived? How many more rings would he have had?

Tiny's absence was possibly only a factor in game three. All six of the other games were blowouts (unlike the '81 EDF's, when all seven were razor-thin margins.)

Worthy missed the entire '83 Finals, and McAdoo missed two games. Clearly, they were missed.

You mention Tiny's absence in '82. How about McAdoo's missed game seven of the '84 Finals? 13 ppg and 6 rpg missed. BTW, the score was 105-102 in game seven with about a minute to go.

"Home cookin" in game six? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Boston shot 35 FTAs to LA's 17. If any game was "rigged", it this one...and LA STILL won (easily BTW.)

Fun Fact: After the '84 Finals:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/03/sports/la-sp-0603-lakers-celtics-finals-20100603


1983-84: Un-Worthy

The Lakers were better. Larry Bird said it himself: "To be honest, they should have swept."



In '85, after the Lakers sleep-walked their way to a blowout loss in game one, they completely dominated the rest of the series. This was not a case of Boston losing games on a poor pass, or missed FT, but rather...being wiped out. Oh, and Bird once again shot poorly from the field in the entire series.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, McHale had the greatest regular season of his career in '86-87, and the second greatest post-season of his career. And Parish played well in that series. The biggest reason Boston lost...they were ANNIHILATED in THREE of their losses, and were within a few points in game three of being swept. BTW, Bird had ONE good game...and his team was blown out in it. He played poorly, and certainly shot poorly. He wasn't even the best player on his own team...the "one-footed" McHale was clearly better.

When did Bird have surgery on his heels in '88? Was it after the greatest regular season of his career, and before the Piston series in which he basically shot his team down the drain with a .351 FG%? The same Piston team that Magic dominated in '88 (and was clearly robbed of the FMVP)?

Bias will always be a "what if." Sorry, but we will never know.

As for Bird's heels and back, and feet, and elbow, and wrists, and fingers...a CAREER full of EXCUSES...all used in any series in which he played poorly, and never in any in which he played well. Hell, I have even heard the "injury" excuse in '88, at his peak.

Of course, Magic's career was cut-down in his near-prime. And unlike Bird, who was basically a shell for three years...Magic's career ended the season after winning his third MVP.

[Hey Yo]

Before the start of that game six, I believe it was Russell who commented something along the lines of...how are the Lakers going replace KAJs 33 ppg and 14 rpg?

Well, Magic not only hung 42 (on 14-23 from the field and 14-14 from the line), he was CLEARLY the game's best rebounder. He grabbed 15, and the next best player had 10.

One thing is clear...had Magic been intent on pure scoring...he was certainly capable of 30 ppg (and on high efficiency.)
So it's safe to say that Wilkes' 37pts in game 6 pretty much made up for Kareem's absence and 33ppg?

Yes, one thing is clear. Not many 2nd options will put up 37pts in a Finals game. Like I said, Magic didn't do it by himself like you want to believe.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Tiny's absence was possibly only a factor in game three. All six of the other games were blowouts (unlike the '81 EDF's, when all seven were razor-thin margins.)

Worthy missed the entire '83 Finals, and McAdoo missed two games. Clearly, they were missed.

You mention Tiny's absence in '82. How about McAdoo's missed game seven of the '84 Finals? 13 ppg and 6 rpg missed. BTW, the score was 105-102 in game seven with about a minute to go.

"Home cookin" in game six? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Boston shot 35 FTAs to LA's 17. If any game was "rigged", it this one...and LA STILL won (easily BTW.)

Fun Fact: After the '84 Finals:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/03/sports/la-sp-0603-lakers-celtics-finals-20100603



In '85, after the Lakers sleep-walked their way to a blowout loss in game one, they completely dominated the rest of the series. This was not a case of Boston losing games on a poor pass, or missed FT, but rather...being wiped out. Oh, and Bird once again shot poorly from the field in the entire series.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, McHale had the greatest regular season of his career in '86-87, and the second greatest post-season of his career. And Parish played well in that series. The biggest reason Boston lost...they were ANNIHILATED in THREE of their losses, and were within a few points in game three of being swept. BTW, Bird had ONE good game...and his team was blown out in it. He played poorly, and certainly shot poorly. He wasn't even the best player on his own team...the "one-footed" McHale was clearly better.

When did Bird have surgery on his heels in '88? Was it after the greatest regular season of his career, and before the Piston series in which he basically shot his team down the drain with a .351 FG%? The same Piston team that Magic dominated in '88 (and was clearly robbed of the FMVP)?

Bias will always be a "what if." Sorry, but we will never know.

As for Bird's heels and back, and feet, and elbow, and wrists, and fingers...a CAREER full of EXCUSES...all used in any series in which he played poorly, and never in any in which he played well. Hell, I have even heard the "injury" excuse in '88, at his peak.

Of course, Magic's career was cut-down in his near-prime. And unlike Bird, who was basically a shell for three years...Magic's career ended the season after winning his third MVP.

So much stupidity and ignorance, as usual.
It's clear as day you're not even 25, and also that you don't know much what you're talking about.
Plus, you're getting owned all throughout the thread, AGAIN.

Oh, and here's Larry Bird on camera saying he thought they would sweep the Lakers (in the 1984 Finals)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y&t=1m7s
What does that say? What does that leaves us at? :rolleyes:
And Bird says many things, plenty of time just joking or being ironic, and going over people's heads.

PS: Everyone and their mama knows your alts by now...

[colts19]

Laz, I have a question for you. As much as you distort things to make Bird look like some scrub. Where do you have him ranked all time among Forwards only. Please explain your ranking. I just really want to know. Thanks

[Pointguard]

So much stupidity and ignorance, as usual.
It's clear as day you're not even 25, and also that you don't know much what you're talking about.
Plus, you're getting owned all throughout the thread, AGAIN.

Oh, and here's Larry Bird on camera saying he thought they would sweep the Lakers (in the 1984 Finals)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y&t=1m7s
What does that say? What does that leaves us at? :rolleyes:
And Bird says many things, plenty of time just joking or being ironic, and going over people's heads.

PS: Everyone and their mama knows your alts by now...

Why would Lazarus need alts? He's one of the best at debating on the site. It only makes sense if he has like a dumb it down alternate.

[colts19]

Random stat. Moses was the Kareem Killer:facepalm . Record against MM was 20 win and 14 Losses. Larry Bird, Moses killer. Record 32 wins 19 losses. In the playoff record was LB 12, Moses 3. So Kareem and Bird beat moses to death, but he was better than them. I always thought winning meant something.

[LAZERUSS]

So much stupidity and ignorance, as usual.
It's clear as day you're not even 25, and also that you don't know much what you're talking about.
Plus, you're getting owned all throughout the thread, AGAIN.

Oh, and here's Larry Bird on camera saying he thought they would sweep the Lakers (in the 1984 Finals)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y&t=1m7s
What does that say? What does that leaves us at? :rolleyes:
And Bird says many things, plenty of time just joking or being ironic, and going over people's heads.

PS: Everyone and their mama knows your alts by now...


How about a SERIOUS Bird...and at age 50...

http://www.nba.com/nba_tv/birdwaltonint_061204.html


Then we go back to L.A., we had them down 16 points, they make a run and beat us at the end. So we had Game 7, which went back and forth. It was like '81 – we were down 3-1 to Philadelphia and we came back and won the series. And then in '84, the Lakers should have swept us, but gave us enough breathing room to comeback and we were very fortunate to win that series

If he was doing any "clowning" it was before game seven of the '84 Finals, when he KNEW that his team was badly outplayed to that point.

Talked about being "owned"

Again..."Mr. POS"

And I don't have ANY ALTS, either. Nor would I ever need any other one's to continue to make a fool out of your sorry ass.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz, I have a question for you. As much as you distort things to make Bird look like some scrub. Where do you have him ranked all time among Forwards only. Please explain your ranking. I just really want to know. Thanks

Bird is #3 on MY all-time list of Forwards...albeit, you could make a case that Duncan has been a center for most of his career...which would move Bird up to #2, and behind Lebron.

BTW, if you include Dr. J's ABA career, I might lean towards him at #2.

[LAZERUSS]

Random stat. Moses was the Kareem Killer:facepalm . Record against MM was 20 win and 14 Losses. Larry Bird, Moses killer. Record 32 wins 19 losses. In the playoff record was LB 12, Moses 3. So Kareem and Bird beat moses to death, but he was better than them. I always thought winning meant something.

I see you conveniently forgot that Moses held a 6-1 record against Kareem in their playoff H2H's, including pounding him in a major upset in '81 with a 40-42 team...and BTW, he nearly led that team to another upset over your Celtics (the series was tied 2-2 at one point.) And then, with a comparable roster (actually a better roster with Worthy out the entire series), he swept KAJ in the '83 Finals, and just brutalized him in the process.

As for the Bird-Moses H2H's...well, we KNOW that Bird didn't defend Moses. Furthermore, Bird conveniently "ducked" out in the '83 playoffs...deciding to get SWEPT by a worse Bucks team before facing the wrath of a peak Moses in the ECF's. BTW, Moses' Sixers routed that same Bucks team, 4-1. So, tell me...just how would a Celtic-Sixers series have went in '83?

[colts19]

Bird is #3 on MY all-time list of Forwards...albeit, you could make a case that Duncan has been a center for most of his career...which would move Bird up to #2, and behind Lebron.

BTW, if you include Dr. J's ABA career, I might lean towards him at #2.

Thanks for reply. I know a lot of people are putting Lebron ahead of Bird these days, but I am surprised you would You like to point out Larry's failure without context. But you put Lebron and his failures ahead of him. A guy whose team just lost by the largest margin in history. A guy who quit on his team against the Celtics. Something Larry Bird would never do. I'll take the guy who has some bad shooting games ahead of a guy who quits, everyday all day.

[colts19]

I see you conveniently forgot that Moses held a 6-1 record against Kareem in their playoff H2H's, including pounding him in a major upset in '81 with a 40-42 team...and BTW, he nearly led that team to another upset over your Celtics (the series was tied 2-2 at one point.) And then, with a comparable roster (actually a better roster with Worthy out the entire series), he swept KAJ in the '83 Finals, and just brutalized him in the process.

As for the Bird-Moses H2H's...well, we KNOW that Bird didn't defend Moses. Furthermore, Bird conveniently "ducked" out in the '83 playoffs...deciding to get SWEPT by a worse Bucks team before facing the wrath of a peak Moses in the ECF's. BTW, Moses' Sixers routed that same Bucks team, 4-1. So, tell me...just how would a Celtic-Sixers series have went in '83?

You conveniently left out all the stuff I posted to. The Celtics would have matched up better against Philly, but no one was beating Philly that year.

[LAZERUSS]

Thanks for reply. I know a lot of people are putting Lebron ahead of Bird these days, but I am surprised you would You like to point out Larry's failure without context. But you put Lebron and his failures ahead of him. A guy whose team just lost by the largest margin in history. A guy who quit on his team against the Celtics. Something Larry Bird would never do. I'll take the guy who has some bad shooting games ahead of a guy who quits, everyday all day.

Lebron...more MVPs, same number of FMVPs, been good to great for 12 seasons (yes, already 12, and likely another several more), while Bird had NINE good to great seasons, and then was a shell for three more.

BTW, what was the Cavs record in his last year in Cleveland...yes, it was 61-21 (and that followed a 66-16 record.) How did Cleveland do the next season? 19-63.

What was Miami's record before Lebron arrived. 47-35. Then, with Lebron... 58-24, 46-20, 66-16, and 54-28 (with Wade routinely missing games.) Oh, and four straight Finals, with two rings, and two FMVPs. Incidently, in the games Wade missed in those four years...a 47-18 W-L record.

Ok, so Lebron bolted for Cleveland again. How are the Wade-Bosh Heat doing this year... yep, 15-20.

Oh, and Lebron has missed Cleveland's last six games...and guess what... a 1-5 record.

Yep...a "loser", a "choker" and a "quitter" alright.

And speaking of "quitting" how about Bird in the '88 ECF's? Just completely folded his tent while McHale battled heroically.

[LAZERUSS]

You conveniently left out all the stuff I posted to. The Celtics would have matched up better against Philly, but no one was beating Philly that year.

No they wouldn't have. They couldn't even win a game against the considerably less talented Bucks. Of course, Bird had his annual "injury" excuse that year too...like it would have made a difference.

[dankok8]

1982-1983 Sixers are one of the GOAT teams and looked downright unstoppable for much of that year. They started the year 50-7 and then cruised to the finish line going just 15-10 the rest of the way. Moses sat out the last four games of the season to rest for the playoffs.

However if there was any team that could have given them a run for their money that year it's Boston. In the regular season they went 3-3 against the Celtics, won all 3 home games, lost all 3 road games. 4 point win in double OT at home, 26 point loss in Boston, 17 point win at home, 5 point loss in Boston, 5 point win at home, and 13 point loss in Boston. Albeit in that last loss Moses was resting for the playoffs. That series easily could have gone 7 games. Celtics matched up well with Philly. Lots of big bodies... Bird, Parish, McHale, Maxwell to throw at Moses and Bird at this point his career could outplay Erving. Tiny could balance out Cheeks. As always Toney would pose a problem but I think Boston would have a chance for sure.

And yes in the finals, Lakers were decimated with injuries. Worthy was DNP and both McAdoo and Nixon missed some games IIRC. A healthy Laker team could have taken off a game or two as well.

EDIT: Calling Larry Bird a choker is sheer stupidity. In Game 7's and decisive Game 5's...

Average: 27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS

Average (-92): 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS

Minus 1992... 30/10/7... not to mention all the huge shots the guy hit. His worst Game 7 is in 1982 where he still put up 20 points, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists. 7-2 record in those games... What a choker!!

The real question is whether Larry Bird is the BEST clutch player in history or simply top 3?

[colts19]

Lebron...more MVPs, same number of FMVPs, been good to great for 12 seasons (yes, already 12, and likely another several more), while Bird had NINE good to great seasons, and then was a shell for three more.

BTW, what was the Cavs record in his last year in Cleveland...yes, it was 61-21 (and that followed a 66-16 record.) How did Cleveland do the next season? 19-63.

What was Miami's record before Lebron arrived. 47-35. Then, with Lebron... 58-24, 46-20, 66-16, and 54-28 (with Wade routinely missing games.) Oh, and four straight Finals, with two rings, and two FMVPs. Incidently, in the games Wade missed in those four years...a 47-18 W-L record.

Ok, so Lebron bolted for Cleveland again. How are the Wade-Bosh Heat doing this year... yep, 15-20.

Oh, and Lebron has missed Cleveland's last six games...and guess what... a 1-5 record.

Yep...a "loser", a "choker" and a "quitter" alright.

And speaking of "quitting" how about Bird in the '88 ECF's? Just completely folded his tent while McHale battled heroically.
Context young man. Yes Lebron has more MVP's but he is not going against Moses, Magic, Kareem, Michael and Dr. J. in the MVP race. Like Larry was. If he were competing against those guys in the 80's he wouldn't have 4 MVP's. Who is he competing against for MVP's. A old kobe and Duncan. A young Durant.

He has had much worse playoff performance's than Bird and it's not close.

Moving on, You always say Kareem couldn't win without Magic. Didn't magic play in those 1 and 6 losses that Kareem played in. I guess Larry and Parrish were just that much better than Kareem and Magic if they could go 12 and 3 against Moses.

Next, If Magic carried Kareem as you always say. What do you think Wilt's playoff record would be if he had Magic. 8 or 9 Championships at least. Then would you be saying Magic carried Wilt. I think not.

[colts19]

Lebron...more MVPs, same number of FMVPs, been good to great for 12 seasons (yes, already 12, and likely another several more), while Bird had NINE good to great seasons, and then was a shell for three more.

BTW, what was the Cavs record in his last year in Cleveland...yes, it was 61-21 (and that followed a 66-16 record.) How did Cleveland do the next season? 19-63.

What was Miami's record before Lebron arrived. 47-35. Then, with Lebron... 58-24, 46-20, 66-16, and 54-28 (with Wade routinely missing games.) Oh, and four straight Finals, with two rings, and two FMVPs. Incidently, in the games Wade missed in those four years...a 47-18 W-L record.

Ok, so Lebron bolted for Cleveland again. How are the Wade-Bosh Heat doing this year... yep, 15-20.

Oh, and Lebron has missed Cleveland's last six games...and guess what... a 1-5 record.

Yep...a "loser", a "choker" and a "quitter" alright.

And speaking of "quitting" how about Bird in the '88 ECF's? Just completely folded his tent while McHale battled heroically.

Noticed how you only post positive things about Lebron. I have total confidence in your ability to find and point out only the negative. So why don't you give Lebron the same treatment you give Bird.

[dankok8]

Problem with the whole "Kareem had Magic" argument is that people forget to mention that it was 33-42 year old Kareem that had Magic. How many titles would 33-42 year old Wilt win with Magic considering he retired at age 36? 8 or 9 titles in 4 seasons. Sure sounds about right. :oldlol:

People don't realize that Kareem is the ONLY player that could benefit from Magic that much. Because he's the only one that made All-NBA 1st Team at age 39. Next oldest is Karl Malone at age 36 IIRC. When it comes to longevity Kareem was something else. Kareem was doing things from his mid-30's to his late 40's that quite frankly no other player in history could do. Oldest player to make All-NBA 1st Team, oldest to make the All-Star Team, oldest to win Finals MVP etc etc.

Magic is a top 5 player in my book and a consensus top 7. He's my favorite player along with Hakeem and Lebron. LAZERUSS underrating Kareem and Bird is pissing me off though. Disrespecting the legends...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Problem with the whole "Kareem had Magic" argument is that people forget to mention that it was 33-42 year old Kareem that had Magic. How many titles would 33-42 year old Wilt win with Magic considering he retired at age 36? 8 or 9 titles in 4 seasons. Sure sounds about right. :oldlol:

People don't realize that Kareem is the ONLY player that could benefit from Magic that much. Because he's the only one that made All-NBA 1st Team at age 39. Next oldest is Karl Malone at age 36 IIRC. When it comes to longevity Kareem was something else. Kareem was doing things from his mid-30's to his late 40's that quite frankly no other player in history could do. Oldest player to make All-NBA 1st Team, oldest to make the All-Star Team, oldest to win Finals MVP etc etc.

Magic is a top 5 player in my book and a consensus top 7. He's my favorite player along with Hakeem and Lebron. LAZERUSS underrating Kareem and Bird is pissing me off though. Disrespecting the legends...

Laz is a fool, just extremely ignorant then only goes off on selected stats and whatnot, bringing little knowledge about the actual game(s). Clear that he's still very young and (most importantly) knows little to zero about subjects like this.

Nobody takes him seriously anymore, and he's getting owned by dudes that know their history (and were actually alive back in the day) like Le Frescobaldi...

You'll see his alts pop up in threads like these to agree with him, also.

[Pointguard]

Laz is a fool, just extremely ignorant then only goes off on selected stats and whatnot, bringing little knowledge about the actual game(s). Clear that he's still very young and (most importantly) knows little to zero about subjects like this.

Laz is certainly not anybodies fool. You may not agree with him but his arguments are coherent and blessed with angles that few here ever see on their own. He's not young and he knows a lot about the game.


Nobody takes him seriously anymore, and he's getting owned by dudes that know their history (and were actually alive back in the day) like Le Frescobaldi...

You'll see his alts pop up in threads like these to agree with him, also.
Frescobaldi agrees more than he disagrees with Laz from what I seen. I am not an alt of Laz and I agree with him on a lot of things. I think his time link theory on here is one of the best, well thought out theories I have seen on these boards. If you disagree with him and you think he is younger than you and a fool, then debate him. You should have the upper hand.

I've never seen Laz go personal on someone first in my whole time here. I've never seen him go to other people to try to discredit them. He always answers questions, he never shies away anything put to him. He's straight no chaser, brutally honest, and takes no prisoners. I wish more posters were like him.

[LAZERUSS]

Problem with the whole "Kareem had Magic" argument is that people forget to mention that it was 33-42 year old Kareem that had Magic. How many titles would 33-42 year old Wilt win with Magic considering he retired at age 36? 8 or 9 titles in 4 seasons. Sure sounds about right. :oldlol:

People don't realize that Kareem is the ONLY player that could benefit from Magic that much. Because he's the only one that made All-NBA 1st Team at age 39. Next oldest is Karl Malone at age 36 IIRC. When it comes to longevity Kareem was something else. Kareem was doing things from his mid-30's to his late 40's that quite frankly no other player in history could do. Oldest player to make All-NBA 1st Team, oldest to make the All-Star Team, oldest to win Finals MVP etc etc.

Magic is a top 5 player in my book and a consensus top 7. He's my favorite player along with Hakeem and Lebron. LAZERUSS underrating Kareem and Bird is pissing me off though. Disrespecting the legends...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yep...your "favorite player" alright...

Now, as for Wilt and KAJ.

KAJ was just a shell at ages 41-42, and in fact, he did nothing to help in one Finals, and nearly killed his team's title hopes in another at those ages.

Wilt at age 36...4th in the MVP voting; led his team to a 60-22 record and yet another trip to the Finals; as always, led the NBA in rebounding; averaged 22.5 rpg in the his last post-season, and covering 17 games, a in post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg, set a still NBA record of a .727 FG%, was voted first -team all-defense, and averaged 5.4 bpg.

Oh, and remember this...


Chamberlain, at age 36, and in his LAST season vs the best centers in the league:


Vs. Cowens in 4 H2H's:

Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, .454 FG%

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, .588 FG%



vs. Reed in 3 regular season H2H's:

Reed: 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .471 FG%

Wilt: 6.3 ppg, 23.3 rpg, .529 FG%

vs. Reed in 5 Finals' H2H's:

Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%

Wilt: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%


vs. Bellamy in 4 H2H's:

Bellamy: 17.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg ( 2 known games), .400 FG% (2 known game)

Wilt: 9.8 ppg, 20.5 rpg, .593 FG%


vs. Unseld in 4 H2H's:

Unseld: 12.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, .481 FG%

Wilt: 12.8 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .769 FG%


vs. McAdoo in 4 H2H's:

McAdoo: 16.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .450 FG% (3 known games)

Wilt: 20.5 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .850 FG%


vs. Thurmond in 7 regular season H2H's:

Thurmond: 12.3 ppg, 21.6 rpg, .315 FG%

Wilt: 5.1 ppg, 16.6 rpg, .684 FG%

vs. Thurmond in 5 playoff H2H's:

Thurmond: 15.8 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .373 FG%

Wilt: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, .611 FG%


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%



vs. Kareem in 6 H2H's:

Kareem: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, .450 FG%

Wilt: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, .737 FG%



Some interesting numbers. Cowens certainly outplayed Wilt, albeit, in his one known game, he still only shot .429 from the field.

As ALWAYS, Chamberlain reduced Thurmond to just AWFUL FG%'s (in the two known games in the regular season, Nate shot 3-9 and 2-14...and then in his five playoff H2H's, he only shot .373 overall.) And while Nate outrebounded Wilt in their regular season H2H's, as ALWAYS, Chamberlain just cleaned his clock on the glass in their playoff H2H's.

Willis Reed didn't do much of anything against Wilt in their regular season H2H's, and while he won the FMVP, SOMEBODY had to win it. If anything, Chamberlain outplayed him (again) in their Finals matchup (and in the clinching game, he badly outplayed him.)

Bellamy? I doubt that there has ever been one HOFer who so thoroughly dominated another over the course of so many seasons. Even into his LAST season, Chamberlain continued to own Bellamy. And this likely was one of Bellamy's closest seasons against Wilt.

How about rookie Bob McAdoo? Talk about pure domination...Wilt SLAUGHTERED McAdoo in every conceivable facet of the game. He easily outscored him, badly outrebounded him, and shot an unfathomable .850 from the field (again, all while averaging 20.5 ppg against him.)

Bob Lanier? Wilt more than held his own a PRIME Lanier. In fact, he easily outplayed him overall. And look at their FG%'s. In his three known games, Lanier shot a paltry .400 from the field, while Wilt not only averaged 20 ppg against him, he also shot a staggering .764 from the floor. And BTW, in Lanier's highest scoring game against Wilt, he only shot 13-30 from the field (.433), so his actual total FG% likely was very close to the known .400 mark.

Kareem outscored and outrebounded Wilt in their six regular season H2H's, but as almost always, Chamberlain reduced KAJ's FG% by more than 10%. Kareem only shot over 50% twice in their six H2H's, and had games of 12-31, 10-27, and 11-30 from the field against Wilt. In fact, Chamberlain even outscored Kareem in one H2H, by a 24-21 margin, while outshooting him from the field by a 10-14 to 10-27 margin.

I didn't include Elvin Hayes, because he was now a PF alongside Unseld.

In any case, Chamberlain was not only blocking a KNOWN 5.4 bpg in his LAST season, he was DRAMATICALLY lowering the efficiency of the top centers in the league. All at age 36.


Then, how about this...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently Stewart, Larry (1999-10-13). "Giant Towered Over the Rest". The Los Angeles Times.


And then this...

http://www.si.com/vault/1986/08/18/113812/doing-just-fine-my-man-at-50-wilt-chamberlain-has-finally-mellowed-some-however-he-remains-as-always-larger-than-life


And what event would you enter, Wilt? The discus, the 200, the
high jump? ''Almost anything,'' he shrugs. These days, for typical
daily amusement he competes (against others or himself) in the
following activities: basketball, racquetball, volleyball, tennis,
polo (yes, the kind with horses), rowing single sculls, swimming,
running races, lifting weights, hurling objects, performing the
martial arts, aerobics and walking long distances. He still holds his
own in scrimmages with current NBA players. The Nets' offer, while
obviously of considerable publicity value to a team somewhere out in
the suburbs that nobody knows exists, was perfectly legitimate. Wilt
finally turned it down only because he was afraid he would disappoint
people, afraid that even though he was sure he would acquit himself
proudly, playing in the NBA in his 50th year, nothing he could do
would be enough to satisfy expectations.

And finally...this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAyN1LZNXfw

Do you REALLY think that THAT Chamberlain would not have been capable of playing, and even, DOMINATING at age 40?

[LAZERUSS]

Context young man. Yes Lebron has more MVP's but he is not going against Moses, Magic, Kareem, Michael and Dr. J. in the MVP race. Like Larry was. If he were competing against those guys in the 80's he wouldn't have 4 MVP's. Who is he competing against for MVP's. A old kobe and Duncan. A young Durant.

He has had much worse playoff performance's than Bird and it's not close.

Moving on, You always say Kareem couldn't win without Magic. Didn't magic play in those 1 and 6 losses that Kareem played in. I guess Larry and Parrish were just that much better than Kareem and Magic if they could go 12 and 3 against Moses.

Next, If Magic carried Kareem as you always say. What do you think Wilt's playoff record would be if he had Magic. 8 or 9 Championships at least. Then would you be saying Magic carried Wilt. I think not.

Lebron also had MUCH better playoff performances than Bird. Aside from rebounding, pick a category...ppg, FG%, FG%, TS%, DEFENSE, you name it.,..he was BETTER than Bird.

How many 30 ppg post-seasons did Bird have? ZERO. Lebron with THREE, and TWO more higher than Bird's highest. Bird's highest post-season... 27.5 ppg. Lebron's highest post-season... 35.3 ppg. And how about Finals? Bird's career high Finals... 27.4 ppg and 24 ppg. Lebron... 28.6 ppg and 28.2 ppg.

FG%? Lebron with a 4-3 edge in .500 FG% post-seasons, and a massive .565 to .524 in career highs. Finals? Bird's high in his five Finals... .488. Lebron... .571.

eFG%? Bird with three over 50%, and a high of .551. Lebron...SEVEN over 50%, with a high of .616.

TS%? Bird with TWO over 60%, and a high of .615. Lebron with THREE, and a high of .668.

3pt%? Surely Bird would win this one, right? Actually...no...Lebron has a career .333 3pt% in his post-season play, and Larry "the Legend"... .321. Oh, and Bird made 80 3pt FGAs in his 160 post-season games....Lebron...230 in his 158 playoff games.

Did Lebron have playoff and Finals "meltdowns?" Of course he did, but no worse than Bird's worst. And usually with much poorer surrounding talent than Bird had throughout his post-season career.

OVERALL RESUMES...

Lebron has more MVPs, as many FMVPs, and as many Finals (and yes, Bird has one more ring...but in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.)

Close? Yes, it is...but again, Lebron is now playing in his 12th season, and has been among the best players, if not the best player in the game, in narly all 12. Bird played 13 seasons, and had nine elite seasons. Sorry, but 12 trumps 9, especially when their best seasons, and peaks, are nearly identical.

As for Wilt...ANY version of Chamberlain...and give him 10 years with a Magic who dominated the NBA from Day 1... who knows how many titles? But certainly more than 5. Furthermore, give Wilt players like Worthy (who almost always played brilliantly in his post-season career), Wilkes (hell, Rick Barry won a title with him), Cooper, Nixon, Scott, et. al, and he would have been winning dominating titles year-after-year.

How many Finals and Rings did a PRIME Kareem have...PRE-MAGIC?

One thing about Wilt...unlike Kareem, Chamberlain could adapt his game to his surrounding personnel. And he could dominate games by scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, blocked shots, or any combination.

[The Red Viper]

For me, he is still the second best Basketball player of all time. So, even if he had won the sixth ring, he would have been second behind Mike.

[LAZERUSS]

For me, he is still the second best Basketball player of all time. So, even if he had won the sixth ring, he would have been second behind Mike.

Of course, you are one of the very few here who actually read the OP.

Again...Magic was ONE errant Worthy PASS away from winning his 6th ring, and his 4th FMVP...which ultimately would have meant...Bird with 2 rings, and 1 FMVP.

ONE PASS.

ONE PASS away from 12 full seasons, 9 Finals, 6 Titles, 4 FMVPs, and the highest W-L percentage in NBA history (which he does hold BTW.)

Not only would Magic have an even more solid case as a GOAT...where would that leave Bird?

[Dr.J4ever]

Bird is #3 on MY all-time list of Forwards...albeit, you could make a case that Duncan has been a center for most of his career...which would move Bird up to #2, and behind Lebron.

BTW, if you include Dr. J's ABA career, I might lean towards him at #2.

:applause:

[Champ]

Of course, you are one of the very few here who actually read the OP.

Again...Magic was ONE errant Worthy PASS away from winning his 6th ring, and his 4th FMVP...which ultimately would have meant...Bird with 2 rings, and 1 FMVP.

ONE PASS.

ONE PASS away from 12 full seasons, 9 Finals, 6 Titles, 4 FMVPs, and the highest W-L percentage in NBA history (which he does hold BTW.)

Not only would Magic have an even more solid case as a GOAT...where would that leave Bird?


Laz: What if Bird hits that shot at the end of game 4 in '87?

Also, what if Bird gets the '81 MVP over Doc. Recall that was the closest vote ever.

We could be looking at 4 rings and 4 MVPs.

[La Frescobaldi]

Laz is certainly not anybodies fool. You may not agree with him but his arguments are coherent and blessed with angles that few here ever see on their own. He's not young and he knows a lot about the game.

Frescobaldi agrees more than he disagrees with Laz from what I seen. I am not an alt of Laz and I agree with him on a lot of things. I think his time link theory on here is one of the best, well thought out theories I have seen on these boards. If you disagree with him and you think he is younger than you and a fool, then debate him. You should have the upper hand.

I've never seen Laz go personal on someone first in my whole time here. I've never seen him go to other people to try to discredit them. He always answers questions, he never shies away anything put to him. He's straight no chaser, brutally honest, and takes no prisoners. I wish more posters were like him.

yes indeed PG.
Laz does have things we completely disagree on, Bird being one of them........ for example right on this page he smashes on Legend for 'folding his tent' in the '88 playoffs....... conveniently and in my opinion FLAGRANTLY ignoring/concealing that Bird had a blasted back AND FREAKING BONE SPURS WHICH REQUIRED SURGERY... HELLO LAZ... WHY DO YOU NOT ACKNOWLEDGE FACTS THAT DESTROY YOUR POINT??????.... but there is no denying that Laz brings it all the time and I have high regard for the guy's research.

That link concept - esp. using Kareem's career as a direct path from Russell and Baylor and those guys to Hakeem and Jordan - is a powerful concept.

agree with you all the way (as usual).... this time about Laz being a great poster.

[Dr.J4ever]

No they wouldn't have. They couldn't even win a game against the considerably less talented Bucks. Of course, Bird had his annual "injury" excuse that year too...like it would have made a difference.

Yes, the 76ers were destined that year, but we feared Boston the most. We swept the Lakers during the regular season when LA had their complete roster(with Worthy), but we only split with Boston.

It's not that Boston was a better team than LA that year, it's just that I think we know each other too well, and there are no secrets between blood enemies Boston and Philly.

[Pointguard]

yes indeed PG.
Laz does have things we completely disagree on, Bird being one of them........ for example right on this page he smashes on Legend for 'folding his tent' in the '88 playoffs....... conveniently and in my opinion FLAGRANTLY ignoring/concealing that Bird had a blasted back AND FREAKING BONE SPURS WHICH REQUIRED SURGERY... HELLO LAZ... WHY DO YOU NOT ACKNOWLEDGE FACTS THAT DESTROY YOUR POINT??????.... but there is no denying that Laz brings it all the time and I have high regard for the guy's research.

That link concept - esp. using Kareem's career as a direct path from Russell and Baylor and those guys to Hakeem and Jordan - is a powerful concept.

agree with you all the way (as usual).... this time about Laz being a great poster.
:cheers: And yeah, he can be brutal sometimes. I disagree with his stuff sometimes, but I am amazed at how he can flip something when I thought he was cornered: It's really amusing.

[La Frescobaldi]

:cheers: And yeah, he can be brutal sometimes. I disagree with his stuff sometimes, but I am amazed at how he can flip something when I thought he was cornered: It's really amusing.

he can be a slippery dude no question about it :lol

[The Red Viper]

Of course, you are one of the very few here who actually read the OP.

Again...Magic was ONE errant Worthy PASS away from winning his 6th ring, and his 4th FMVP...which ultimately would have meant...Bird with 2 rings, and 1 FMVP.

ONE PASS.

ONE PASS away from 12 full seasons, 9 Finals, 6 Titles, 4 FMVPs, and the highest W-L percentage in NBA history (which he does hold BTW.)

Not only would Magic have an even more solid case as a GOAT...where would that leave Bird?

Mike and Magic are the only ones who are constant in my Top-10 as the top two. The rest just float around but Bird is usually in the Top-5. So for your question, Bird would have still been in my Top-10 but probably not as high as I would put him currently. But then again, I don't think either would have mattered a lot really. At least for me. I ultimately judge players by their ability and what their legacy is when they retire. Rings isn't the be all and end all for me. They are vital but not the primary aspect when I rate a player. Mike is the greatest basketball player of all time for me not because he won six rings but because of his attributes and ability.

[LAZERUSS]

yes indeed PG.
Laz does have things we completely disagree on, Bird being one of them........ for example right on this page he smashes on Legend for 'folding his tent' in the '88 playoffs....... conveniently and in my opinion FLAGRANTLY ignoring/concealing that Bird had a blasted back AND FREAKING BONE SPURS WHICH REQUIRED SURGERY... HELLO LAZ... WHY DO YOU NOT ACKNOWLEDGE FACTS THAT DESTROY YOUR POINT??????.... but there is no denying that Laz brings it all the time and I have high regard for the guy's research.

That link concept - esp. using Kareem's career as a direct path from Russell and Baylor and those guys to Hakeem and Jordan - is a powerful concept.

agree with you all the way (as usual).... this time about Laz being a great poster.

Please explain to me how that Bird, just fresh off of his greatest regular season of his career (29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, and on a career high .527 FG%) SUDDENLY developed all of these injuries, and in just a couple of weeks? Furthermore, how about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird


In 1988, Bird had the best statistical season of his career, but the Celtics failed to reach the NBA Finals for the first time in five years, losing to the Pistons in six games during the Eastern Conference Finals. Bird started the 1988–89 season, but ended his season after six games to have bone spurs surgically removed from both of his heels. He returned to the Celtics in 1989, but debilitating back problems and an aging Celtic roster prevented him from regaining his mid-1980s form.

Do you see anything about those "injuries" in that '88 playoff series?

I find it fascinating that in Bird's greatest regular seasons, he had some of his worst shooting post-seasons, and some downright awful playoff series. Don't you?

Same thing with the "injuries" that his teammates supposedly had...particularly the 86-87 season, and post-season, when LA just murdered the Celtics. McHale sustained a "broken foot" in his 86-87 season....which, BTW, was the greatest regular season of his career. He then went on to average a 21-9 .584 post-season, and in the Finals, all he could do was put up an identical 21-9 .585 series. And the "injured" Parish? A 17-7 .592 FG% Finals...AND, an 18-9 .567 POST-SEASON, which was arguably the best of his career, and at the very least, near the best.

And again, I don't recall Bird's "injuries" in the '87 post-season, and in which, he averaged a near career high 27.0 ppg, which included games of 42 and 40 points. True, against the Lakers his numbers tumbled, but in his other 17 games...28.1 ppg on a .485 FG%. Against the Lakers? 24.2 ppg on a .445 FG%. Evidently any injuries he might have had, didn't pop up until the Finals.

Furthermore, Bird had ONE outstanding game in the '87 Finals...32 points on 14-25 shooting...and guess what, his team was blown out. So, what does that tell you? The REALITY was, the Lakers were a few points away from SWEEPING Boston (just like they SHOULD have in '84)...and were CRUSHED in three of their losses. A healthy MJ wouldn't have prevented a Laker romp in that Finals.

I find it fascinating that the Bird-lovers almost always use the "injury" excuse, but it certainly appears to me that those "injuries" were awfully selective, don't you agree?

[Champ]

Tiny's absence was possibly only a factor in game three. All six of the other games were blowouts (unlike the '81 EDF's, when all seven were razor-thin margins.)

Worthy missed the entire '83 Finals, and McAdoo missed two games. Clearly, they were missed.

You mention Tiny's absence in '82. How about McAdoo's missed game seven of the '84 Finals? 13 ppg and 6 rpg missed. BTW, the score was 105-102 in game seven with about a minute to go.

"Home cookin" in game six? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Boston shot 35 FTAs to LA's 17. If any game was "rigged", it this one...and LA STILL won (easily BTW.)

Fun Fact: After the '84 Finals:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/03/sports/la-sp-0603-lakers-celtics-finals-20100603



In '85, after the Lakers sleep-walked their way to a blowout loss in game one, they completely dominated the rest of the series. This was not a case of Boston losing games on a poor pass, or missed FT, but rather...being wiped out. Oh, and Bird once again shot poorly from the field in the entire series.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, McHale had the greatest regular season of his career in '86-87, and the second greatest post-season of his career. And Parish played well in that series. The biggest reason Boston lost...they were ANNIHILATED in THREE of their losses, and were within a few points in game three of being swept. BTW, Bird had ONE good game...and his team was blown out in it. He played poorly, and certainly shot poorly. He wasn't even the best player on his own team...the "one-footed" McHale was clearly better.

When did Bird have surgery on his heels in '88? Was it after the greatest regular season of his career, and before the Piston series in which he basically shot his team down the drain with a .351 FG%? The same Piston team that Magic dominated in '88 (and was clearly robbed of the FMVP)?

Bias will always be a "what if." Sorry, but we will never know.

As for Bird's heels and back, and feet, and elbow, and wrists, and fingers...a CAREER full of EXCUSES...all used in any series in which he played poorly, and never in any in which he played well. Hell, I have even heard the "injury" excuse in '88, at his peak.

Of course, Magic's career was cut-down in his near-prime. And unlike Bird, who was basically a shell for three years...Magic's career ended the season after winning his third MVP.

Tiny was the engine that ran that Celtics team. His loss was huge. Game 2 was close, game 3 closer. Both certainly mattered in a 7 game series that swung back and forth.

Tiny was far more important then to the Celtics that season then McAdoo was to the Lakers in '84.

The Celtics controlled game 6 in '84 until the fourth quarter, when several key calls turned the game around. Fouls were fairly even, btw, but the more important calls went LA's way down the stretch. This was the game where Stern was first accused of "rigging" games. That's not to say he did, but it was something that gained media attention in the two days leading up to game 7.

Calling the '85 Finals a "wipe out" is an exaggeration. It was a competitive series. Max was hurt, and Bird was less then 100 percent throughout his playoff run and still played well.

Bird's surgery in '88 - http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/18/sports/bird-out-3-months-for-surgery.html. He played in only 6 games that season. Surely, you remember. What you might not recall is that those heels had been bothering him since the end of the '87-88 season.

You say Bird had a career of excuses, but Magic had "what-ifs". :confusedshrug:

[La Frescobaldi]

Please explain to me how that Bird, just fresh off of his greatest regular season of his career (29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, and on a career high .527 FG%) SUDDENLY developed all of these injuries, and in just a couple of weeks? Furthermore, how about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird



Do you see anything about those "injuries" in that '88 playoff series?

I find it fascinating that in Bird's greatest regular seasons, he had some of his worst shooting post-seasons, and some downright awful playoff series. Don't you?

Same thing with the "injuries" that his teammates supposedly had...particularly the 86-87 season, and post-season, when LA just murdered the Celtics. McHale sustained a "broken foot" in his 86-87 season....which, BTW, was the greatest regular season of his career. He then went on to average a 21-9 .584 post-season, and in the Finals, all he could do was put up an identical 21-9 .585 series. And the "injured" Parish? A 17-7 .592 FG% Finals...AND, an 18-9 .567 POST-SEASON, which was arguably the best of his career, and at the very least, near the best.

And again, I don't recall Bird's "injuries" in the '87 post-season, and in which, he averaged a near career high 27.0 ppg, which included games of 42 and 40 points. True, against the Lakers his numbers tumbled, but in his other 17 games...28.1 ppg on a .485 FG%. Against the Lakers? 24.2 ppg on a .445 FG%. Evidently any injuries he might have had, didn't pop up until the Finals.

Furthermore, Bird had ONE outstanding game in the '87 Finals...32 points on 14-25 shooting...and guess what, his team was blown out. So, what does that tell you? The REALITY was, the Lakers were a few points away from SWEEPING Boston (just like they SHOULD have in '84)...and were CRUSHED in three of their losses. A healthy MJ wouldn't have prevented a Laker romp in that Finals.

I find it fascinating that the Bird-lovers almost always use the "injury" excuse, but it certainly appears to me that those "injuries" were awfully selective, don't you agree?

Do you not remember those series? Bird looked like he was walking on glass. Here let me help you with that.

http://www.nba.com/hawks/features/nique-bird-oral-history-full-version

{Danny} Ainge: Larry was hurt in that series. He was hurt that whole playoff season and he ended up getting the surgery the following year. He wasn’t even close to 100% and he never returned to the level of player that he was before his double Achilles tendon surgeries. He had back issues as well. You could definitely sense that our team was on the decline. Kevin and Larry weren’t the same players in 1988 that they had been in all of the 1980s before then. You could see some decline in their games.
************************************************** *

Bone spurs caused his Achilles to blow out in both feet: just like Danny A points out, he never recovered.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz: What if Bird hits that shot at the end of game 4 in '87?

Also, what if Bird gets the '81 MVP over Doc. Recall that was the closest vote ever.

We could be looking at 4 rings and 4 MVPs.

What if LA doesn't play a poor game three in the '87 Finals? Guess what, Magic's clutch shot at the end of game four (and Bird's subsequent miss at the buzzer)...and the Lakers would have SWEPT Boston. As it was, in their three other wins in that series, they had huge leads, and won them all easily. There was simply no way Boston would have won that series, when they were routed in every Laker home game, and the series was going back to LA for games six and seven (if it had been necessary.)

The '81 MVP? Doc certainly had a better resume, but you know who the most feared player in the league was that year? Yep...Moses. HE probably should have won his 4th MVP in a five year span that season (and probably deserved it in all five seasons.)

In any case, YOUR arguments require a TON of "what if's" occurring. MINE are this...

In '84, Magic was ONE PASS away from a ring, and yet another FMVP (and ONE PASS and ONE FT away from a SWEEP...as it was, the Lakers were the better team in FIVE of those seven games.)

That's it. ONE PASS. ONE PASS away from having SIX RINGS, and FOUR FMVPS...and subsequently, laving Bird with two rings, and 1 FMVP.

[LAZERUSS]

Do you not remember those series? Bird looked like he was walking on glass. Here let me help you with that.

http://www.nba.com/hawks/features/nique-bird-oral-history-full-version

{Danny} Ainge: Larry was hurt in that series. He was hurt that whole playoff season and he ended up getting the surgery the following year. He wasn’t even close to 100% and he never returned to the level of player that he was before his double Achilles tendon surgeries. He had back issues as well. You could definitely sense that our team was on the decline. Kevin and Larry weren’t the same players in 1988 that they had been in all of the 1980s before then. You could see some decline in their games.
************************************************** *

Bone spurs caused his Achilles to blow out in both feet: just like Danny A points out, he never recovered.

CAREER SEASON for Bird, ...and McHale with a 23-8 .604 season (and a 27-7 .563 series against the Pistons.) Furthermore, Bird in that "injured" series against the Hawks... 27-8-6 .510 FG%, with a clinching game six of 34 points on 15-24 shooting. Arguably one of the best post-season series of his entire career. Again...CONVENIENT.

Oh, and no one is disputing Bird's injuries in his NEXT season, BUT, in his first two games of 88-89...39 mpg, and 28 ppg on a .556 FG%. Seemed pretty healthy for a guy who supposedly couldn't walk, don't you agree?

[colts19]

Lebron also had MUCH better playoff performances than Bird. Aside from rebounding, pick a category...ppg, FG%, FG%, TS%, DEFENSE, you name it.,..he was BETTER than Bird.

How many 30 ppg post-seasons did Bird have? ZERO. Lebron with THREE, and TWO more higher than Bird's highest. Bird's highest post-season... 27.5 ppg. Lebron's highest post-season... 35.3 ppg. And how about Finals? Bird's career high Finals... 27.4 ppg and 24 ppg. Lebron... 28.6 ppg and 28.2 ppg.

FG%? Lebron with a 4-3 edge in .500 FG% post-seasons, and a massive .565 to .524 in career highs. Finals? Bird's high in his five Finals... .488. Lebron... .571.

eFG%? Bird with three over 50%, and a high of .551. Lebron...SEVEN over 50%, with a high of .616.

TS%? Bird with TWO over 60%, and a high of .615. Lebron with THREE, and a high of .668.

3pt%? Surely Bird would win this one, right? Actually...no...Lebron has a career .333 3pt% in his post-season play, and Larry "the Legend"... .321. Oh, and Bird made 80 3pt FGAs in his 160 post-season games....Lebron...230 in his 158 playoff games.

Did Lebron have playoff and Finals "meltdowns?" Of course he did, but no worse than Bird's worst. And usually with much poorer surrounding talent than Bird had throughout his post-season career.

OVERALL RESUMES...

Lebron has more MVPs, as many FMVPs, and as many Finals (and yes, Bird has one more ring...but in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.)

Close? Yes, it is...but again, Lebron is now playing in his 12th season, and has been among the best players, if not the best player in the game, in narly all 12. Bird played 13 seasons, and had nine elite seasons. Sorry, but 12 trumps 9, especially when their best seasons, and peaks, are nearly identical.

As for Wilt...ANY version of Chamberlain...and give him 10 years with a Magic who dominated the NBA from Day 1... who knows how many titles? But certainly more than 5. Furthermore, give Wilt players like Worthy (who almost always played brilliantly in his post-season career), Wilkes (hell, Rick Barry won a title with him), Cooper, Nixon, Scott, et. al, and he would have been winning dominating titles year-after-year.

How many Finals and Rings did a PRIME Kareem have...PRE-MAGIC?

One thing about Wilt...unlike Kareem, Chamberlain could adapt his game to his surrounding personnel. And he could dominate games by scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, blocked shots, or any combination.

Like most of the other Bull**** you post you never respond to the points I bring up. You just twist your own agenda. I ask why you didn't give Lebron the same treatment you give Bird. Your response was more of the same slurping Lebron. I mention the competition for MVP's Bird was against and you respond with Nothing. If Wilt had Magic and won 10 titles would you be say Magic carried him like you do with KAJ. Hell no you wouldn't.

I'm done talking with you, because you don't know how to have a honest conversation. You just want to throw out stats that don't tell the whole story and you often will leave out stats that may shed a different light on the subject. You don't need to respond.

[LAZERUSS]

Like most of the other Bull**** you post you never respond to the points I bring up. You just twist your own agenda. I ask why you didn't give Lebron the same treatment you give Bird. Your response was more of the same slurping Lebron. I mention the competition for MVP's Bird was against and you respond with Nothing. If Wilt had Magic and won 10 titles would you be say Magic carried him like you do with KAJ. Hell no you wouldn't.

I'm done talking with you, because you don't know how to have a honest conversation. You just want to throw out stats that don't tell the whole story and you often will leave out stats that may shed a different light on the subject. You don't need to respond.

Sorry to disappoint you, but "bashing" Lebron isn't going to help Bird's case. The facts are the facts...Lebron has a better RESUME, going into his 12th season, than Bird did in his 13.

If you want to argue PEAKs...

Bird's '84-86 is slightly better than Lebron's '12-14, and perhaps marginally better than Magic's '87-89 (however, I would take Magic's '85-89 over Bird's '84-88.)

BUT again...CAREER resumes...sorry, Lebron has a slight edge (that, barring injury, will only grow), and Magic clearly had a better career.

[La Frescobaldi]

CAREER SEASON for Bird, ...and McHale with a 23-8 .604 season (and a 27-7 .563 series against the Pistons.) Furthermore, Bird in that "injured" series against the Hawks... 27-8-6 .510 FG%, with a clinching game six of 34 points on 15-24 shooting. Arguably one of the best post-season series of his entire career. Again...CONVENIENT.

Oh, and no is disputing Bird's injuries in his NEXT season, BUT, in his first two games of 88-89...39 mpg, and 28 ppg on a .556 FG%. Seemed pretty healthy for a guy who supposedly couldn't walk, don't you agree?

What happened to Bird is so similar to what happened to Wilt, dude.

Chamberlain jacked his knee in the Finals........ next season he was on a search and destroy mission....... until his knee blew clear out and he missed the season. How come Wilt was so healthy for a guy who had to miss the season? Don't you agree?

It is the same thing, and you know it. You're being willfully obtuse.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Laz being taught history lessons (and getting owned) left and right :oldlol: At least bring out some alts to "help" you, man :lol

Kills me when people use his (sometimes dumb) logic against him...

[LAZERUSS]

What happened to Bird is so similar to what happened to Wilt, dude.

Chamberlain jacked his knee in the Finals........ next season he was on a search and destroy mission....... until his knee blew clear out and he missed the season. How come Wilt was so healthy for a guy who had to miss the season? Don't you agree?

It is the same thing, and you know it. You're being willfully obtuse.

We'll never really know if a tweaked knee in a game seven of the '69 Finals (keep in mind that Wilt asked to go back in only a few minutes later), caused that same knee to cave in in the ninth game of the '70 season a few months later. Possibly, but also possibly a coincidence. BTW, in those nine games... 32.2 ppg, 20 rpg, and a .579 FG%.

Oh, and he came back that same season, only four months after major knee surgery, too. True, you could plainly see that he was nowhere near 100% (and he claimed that as well, but he came back for his teammates)...and he STILL led LA back from a 3-1 series deficit in the first round with three straight monster games, and eventually put up a 23-24 .625 Finals.

He was never the same again, but he was still among the top-3 players in the game until his last season a few years later.

[La Frescobaldi]

Sorry to disappoint you, but "bashing" Lebron isn't going to help Bird's case. The facts are the facts...Lebron has a better RESUME, going into his 12th season, than Bird did in his 13.

If you want to argue PEAKs...

Bird's '84-86 is slightly better than Lebron's '12-14, and perhaps marginally better than Magic's '87-89 (however, I would take Magic's '85-89 over Bird's '84-88.)

BUT again...CAREER resumes...sorry, Lebron has a slight edge (that, barring injury, will only grow), and Magic clearly had a better career.

LeBron quit on his team in Cleveland, quit on his team in Miami, quit on his team again in Miami. Bird had bad games - almost without exception due to severe injuries - but he never quit.
And he DEFINITELY......... didn't flop. When he went to the floor it was in a fight.

Heart means a lot in basketball.

[La Frescobaldi]

We'll never really know if a tweaked knee in a game seven of the '69 Finals, caused that same knee to cave in in the ninth game of the '70 season a few months later. Possibly, but also possibly a coincidence. BTW, in those nine games... 32.2 ppg, 20 rpg, and a .579 FG%.

Oh, and he came back that same season, only four months after major knee surgery, too. True, you could plainly see that he was nowhere near 100% (and he claimed that as well, but he came back for his teammates)...and he STILL led LA back from a 3-1 series deficit in the first round with three straight monster games, and eventually put up a 23-24 .625 Finals.

He was never the same again, but he was still among the top-3 players in the game until his last season a few years later.

You can't defend Chamberlain for that and bash Larry Bird when he had the same thing happen to him.
It's ludicrous.

[Blue&Orange]

Magic just choked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

"I though we would sweep them in 4" Bird 1:08 :roll:

Boss :pimp:

[LAZERUSS]

You can't defend Chamberlain for that and bash Larry Bird when he had the same thing happen to him.
It's ludicrous.

I DIDN'T defend Wilt with his game seven injury in the '69 Finals. He was obviously hurt in game seven of the '69 Finals (even his incompetent coach backed him on that), but he did ask to go back in just a few minutes later. And again...NINE games into the '70 season (a few months after tweaking the knee)? POSSIBLY related? Yes, but in no way a certainty.

As for Bird in the '88 post-season...WAY TOO CONVENIENT, when the FACT remains that he put up one of the better post-season series of his career, and quite likely the best game seven of his career...and then all of a sudden... a .351 FG% in the next series (and in which he played 46 mpg.)

[LAZERUSS]

"I though we would sweep them in 4" Bird 1:08 :roll:

Boss :pimp:

Boy was he ever wrong wasn't he?

It took a MIRACLE to avoid being SWEPT, and a SERIES of MIRACLES to avoid losing the series in six games.

[LAZERUSS]

LeBron quit on his team in Cleveland, quit on his team in Miami, quit on his team again in Miami. Bird had bad games - almost without exception due to severe injuries - but he never quit.
And he DEFINITELY......... didn't flop. When he went to the floor it was in a fight.

Heart means a lot in basketball.

Yep...Lebron quit alright...

One more time...

Lebron's last season in Cleveland... 61-21. He leaves...and the Cavs fall to 19-63.

Lebron joins a 47-35 team, and immediately take his Heat to FOUR Finals, and TWO titles. And he is CLEARLY the best player in the floor in THREE of them.

Oh, and his "best" teammate Wade...the Heat go 47-18 in the games in which he misses.

Lebron bolts back to Cleveland...18-11...and withOUT Lebron... 1-5.

Meanwhile back in Miami...the Wade-Bosh tandem... 15-20.

Yep... a "quitter" alright. Every team would LOVE to have a "quitter" like that.

[La Frescobaldi]

I DIDN'T defend Wilt with his game seven injury in the '69 Finals. He was obviously hurt in game seven of the '69 Finals (even his incompetent coach backed him on that), but he did ask to go back in just a few minutes later. And again...NINE games into the '70 season (a few months after tweaking the knee)? POSSIBLY related? Yes, but in no way a certainty.

As for Bird in the '88 post-season...WAY TOO CONVENIENT, when the FACT remains that he put up one of the better post-season series of his career, and quite likely the best game seven of his career...and then all of a sudden... a .351 FG% in the next series (and in which he played 46 mpg.)

Injury. That's what they do to guys.
You don't have to like it since it's not convenient for your argument but you gotta acknowledge what happened to the guy.

[dankok8]

Actually only 7 games into the 1987-1988 regular season, Bird was diagnosed with severe tendinitis in both his Achilles tendons and missed a game.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19871120&id=eW4sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Wc4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5082,1334999

Because it was untreated he developed bone spurs that caused so much pain that they eventually forced him to undergo major surgery 6 games into the 1988-1989 season. But in the 1988 postseason he was already bothered heavily by the pain and didn't have the usual pep in his step. His dominance that season came off of sheer will, determination, and shooting ability. Think Jordan in 1998 giving it his all but you could tell his tank was pretty much empty.


BOSTON HERALD

Statistically, Larry Bird had just finished his most productive season (29.9 ppg, 52 FG%, 92 FT%, 9 rpg, 6 apg) in the NBA.

However, something was noticeably wrong with Larry during the playoffs. Bird, though never a fast player, always displayed quickness while being light on his toes. During this post season Larry's feet looked very heavy. He often looked distracted and out of the flow of the offense. On many occasions, Bird rushed his shot and, dare I say, even forced more then a few bad shots.

Uncharacteristically his points, rebounds and field goal percentage drastically dropped in the postseason.

Many heralded the Detroit defense for holding Larry to 10 ppg in the conference finals. What many didn't know was that Larry Bird was hampered by painful bones spurs in both feet.

For the first time in 4 seasons, Larry Bird's Boston Celtics would not advance to the NBA Finals.

As the 1989 season began the Boston Celtics kept their starting five intact but with little bench help added it looked as if Bird would be, once again, forced to play extended minutes. After just 6 games, Larry elected to have surgery on his feet that would sideline him for the rest of the season.

Of course McHale too broke his foot but was never allowed to fully recover screwing over his career as well. And then we know how Len Bias OD few days after the draft and died and how Reggie Lewis died in 1993.

Celtics had bad luck then. Nobody can deny that!

[LAZERUSS]

Injury. That's what they do to guys.
You don't have to like it since it's not convenient for your argument but you gotta acknowledge what happened to the guy.

Sure...

perhaps the most "injury-riddled" player of all-time...at least come playoff time...and when it was convenient to explain away his SEVERAL post-season "flop jobs."

Still, even if we accept them, it doesn't elevate his resume, does it? If you want to use it as an "excuse" for his career resume, go ahead. It won't make his career better than Magic's. And again, while so many lament Bird's "fragility"...they also ignore that Magic's career was cut short in his near prime (the very next season after his last MVP.) Magic wasn't a shell in his last full season (unless you want to use his '96 season against him...and even that was a 15-6-7 season after missing four years.)

Look...I have often claimed that Bird's peak, from '84 thru '86, was among the best ever. But too many fans, you included, completely ignore his multiple "flop jobs" between '80 thru '83, and completely excuse his career from his '88 post-season on. A great PEAK to be sure. And a borderline Top-10 career, as well. But let's not get carried away with what his actual CAREER RESUME was.

[LAZERUSS]

Actually only 7 games into the 1986-1987 regular season, Bird was diagnosed with severe tendinitis in both his Achilles tendons and missed a game.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19871120&id=eW4sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Wc4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5082,1334999

Because it was untreated he developed bone spurs that caused so much pain that they eventually forced him to undergo major surgery 6 games into the 1988-1989 season. But in the 1988 postseason he was already bothered heavily by the pain and didn't have the usual pep in his step. His dominance that season came off of sheer will, determination, and shooting ability. Think Jordan in 1998 giving it his all but you could tell his tank was pretty much empty.

Of course McHale too broke his foot but was never allowed to fully recover screwing over his career as well. And then we know how Len Bias OD few days after the draft and died and how Reggie Lewis died in 1993.

Celtics had bad luck then. Nobody can deny that!

Again...just like the "McHale injury excuse"...Bird had the second or third greatest REGULAR season of his career in that '86-87 season, and a remarkable 17 playoff games (arguably the BEST of his post-season career) until the Finals, when he dramatically declined. BTW, he also played a carer-high 40.6 mpg in that 86-87 season...and then a second career high 44.1 mpg in his 23 playoff games.

THEN, he had THE greatest REGULAR season of his ENTIRE CAREER in '87-88 (and on a career average 39 mpg BTW.) AND, he had one of the best post-season series of his career, and arguably the best game seven of his entire career...only to just crumble in the '88 ECF's (and playing 46 mpg in the process.) Overall, he played a career playoff high of 44.9 mpg that post-season.

Sorry, but these "excuses" just don't add up my friend.

[dankok8]

Again...just like the "McHale injury excuse"...Bird had the second or third greatest REGULAR season of his career in that '86-87 season, and a remarkable 17 playoff games (arguably the BEST of his post-season career) until the Finals, when he dramatically declined.

THEN, he had THE greatest REGULAR season of his ENTIRE CAREER in '87-88. AND, he had one of the best post-season series of his career, and arguably the best game seven of his entire career...only to just crumble in the '88 ECF's (and playing 46 mpg in the process.)

Sorry, but these "excuses" just don't add up my friend.

I meant to say 7 games into the 1987-1988 season. The Boston news article clearly states he was injured and that his movement looked surprisingly sluggish. Yet you refute it...

[LAZERUSS]

I meant to say 7 games into the 1987-1988 season. The Boston news article clearly states he was injured and that his movement looked surprisingly sluggish. Yet you refute it...

And then went on to have a 29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, .527 FG% regular season.

That "tendonitis" sure slowed him down.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird seemingly had career seasons in which he was supposedly playing hurt.

I wonder why his numbers declined when he was "healthy?"

Or, if he was EVER "healthy?"

[LeBird]

People seem to forget that for almost a decade, until 1988-1989 season. Magic only finished ahead of Bird ONCE in MVP voting. And that was when Bird's injuries basically caught up and finished him.

Top 5 MVP voting.

1979-80
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PHI Julius Erving
SAS George Gervin
BOS Larry Bird
BOS Tiny Archibald

1980-81
PHI Julius Erving
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
HOU Moses Malone
SAS George Gervin

1981-82
HOU Moses Malone
BOS Larry Bird
PHI Julius Erving
BOS Robert Parish
SEA Gus Williams

1982-83
PHI Moses Malone
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Magic Johnson
MIL Sidney Moncrief
PHI Julius Erving

1983-84
BOS Larry Bird
NYK Bernard King
LAL Magic Johnson
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
DET Isiah Thomas

1984-85
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Magic Johnson
PHI Moses Malone
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
MIL Terry Cummings

1985-86
BOS Larry Bird
ATL Dominique Wilkins
LAL Magic Johnson
HOU Hakeem Olajuwon
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1986-87
LAL Magic Johnson
CHI Michael Jordan
BOS Larry Bird
BOS Kevin McHale
ATL Dominique Wilkins

1987-88
CHI Michael Jordan
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Magic Johnson
PHI Charles Barkley
POR Clyde Drexler

[La Frescobaldi]

Sure...

perhaps the most "injury-riddled" player of all-time...at least come playoff time...and when it was convenient to explain away his SEVERAL post-season "flop jobs."

Still, even if we accept them, it doesn't elevate his resume, does it? If you want to use it as an "excuse" for his career resume, go ahead. It won't make his career better than Magic's. And again, while so many lament Bird's "fragility"...they also ignore that Magic's career was cut short in his near prime (the very next season after his last MVP.) Magic wasn't a shell in his last full season (unless you want to use his '96 season against him...and even that was a 15-6-7 season after missing four years.)

Look...I have often claimed that Bird's peak, from '84 thru '86, was among the best ever. But too many fans, you included, completely ignore his multiple "flop jobs" between '80 thru '83, and completely excuse his career from his '88 post-season on. A great PEAK to be sure. And a borderline Top-10 career, as well. But let's not get carried away with what his actual CAREER RESUME was.

this conversation is so ironic

[Dr.J4ever]

People seem to forget that for almost a decade, until 1988-1989 season. Magic only finished ahead of Bird ONCE in MVP voting. And that was when Bird's injuries basically caught up and finished him.

Top 5 MVP voting.

1979-80
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PHI Julius Erving
SAS George Gervin
BOS Larry Bird
BOS Tiny Archibald

1980-81
PHI Julius Erving
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
HOU Moses Malone
SAS George Gervin

1981-82
HOU Moses Malone
BOS Larry Bird
PHI Julius Erving
BOS Robert Parish
SEA Gus Williams

1982-83
PHI Moses Malone
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Magic Johnson
MIL Sidney Moncrief
PHI Julius Erving

1983-84
BOS Larry Bird
NYK Bernard King
LAL Magic Johnson
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
DET Isiah Thomas

1984-85
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Magic Johnson
PHI Moses Malone
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
MIL Terry Cummings

1985-86
BOS Larry Bird
ATL Dominique Wilkins
LAL Magic Johnson
HOU Hakeem Olajuwon
LAL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1986-87
LAL Magic Johnson
CHI Michael Jordan
BOS Larry Bird
BOS Kevin McHale
ATL Dominique Wilkins

1987-88
CHI Michael Jordan
BOS Larry Bird
LAL Magic Johnson
PHI Charles Barkley
POR Clyde Drexler
Pretty much confirms what I said. In the very early 80s the talk of best overall player in the game (non center) revolved between doc and bird. Magic wasnt feared until the mid 80s. The lakers were kareem and magics showtime. That was the perception...the mvp voting confirms this.

[LAZERUSS]

Pretty much confirms what I said. In the very early 80s the talk of best overall player in the game (non center) revolved between doc and bird. Magic wasnt feared until the mid 80s. The lakers were kareem and magics showtime. That was the perception...the mvp voting confirms this.

Magic was injured for half the season in '81, and in '82 he was blamed for his coach's firing, which just killed him in the voting (BTW, how did that coaching change go again?) From that point on, he was among the top vote getters every year, and outvoted Kareem in their last 8 straight seasons.

And then there also the REALITY of... Magic blowing away Bird in their post-seasons...

'80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91

And NO, it was NOT "Kareem and Magic's Showtime", either. It was MAGIC LEADING the Lakers from DAY ONE. And you could certainly make a case that Magic was the BEST player in the POST-SEASON in '80, '82, '85, '87, and '88.

[Dr.J4ever]

Pretty much confirms what I said. In the very early 80s the talk of best overall player in the game (non center) revolved between doc and bird. Magic wasnt feared until the mid 80s. The lakers were kareem and magics showtime. That was the perception...the mvp voting confirms this.
@Laz, the other thing that I believe hasn't been pointed out in this thread is that Magic was not a GO-TO scorer for the Lakers until the mid 80s, and the MVP voters took note of this.

See the list of players with top MVP votes, all of them were go-to scorers. It took time for voters to understand the uniqueness of Magic as a player, but at the same time he really only developed go-to scoring skill in the mid 80s(mini skyhook).

Yes, Magic could score, but he usually scored OFF of his teammates. In the vast majority of games I saw of 80s Lakers, the order of options for LA was 1.KAJ 2. Wilkes or later on Worthy 3. and then maybe Magic, but Magic was mainly a facilitator.

It took time for media and players to realize how good and unique of a player Magic was, and even his coaches didn't use Magic as a no.1 option. Again, the MVP votes show this.

[LAZERUSS]

@Laz, the other thing that I believe hasn't been pointed out in this thread is that Magic was not a GO-TO scorer for the Lakers until the mid 80s, and the MVP voters took note of this.

See the list of players with top MVP votes, all of them were go-to scorers. It took time for voters to understand the uniqueness of Magic as a player, but at the same time he really only developed go-to scoring skill in the mid 80s(mini skyhook).

Yes, Magic could score, but he usually scored OFF of his teammates. In the vast majority of games I saw of 80s Lakers, the order of options for LA was 1.KAJ 2. Wilkes or later on Worthy 3. and then maybe Magic, but Magic was mainly a facilitator.

It took time for media and players to realize how good and unique of a player Magic was, and even his coaches didn't use Magic as a no.1 option. Again, the MVP votes show this.

:cheers:

Agree 100%. Scoring "hurt" Magic early on, simply because he deferred until the mid-80's. But, even as early as his game six of the '80 Finals, and then his injury-plagued '81 season, there were flashes of 40+ point games. Later in his career he was stringing 15+ games of about 30 ppg and with nearly 12 apg in the same span. By his '90 playoffs, he was putting up a 30 ppg series, which included back-to-back games of 43 points.

Clearly, though, he COULD have scored considerably more.

[LAZERUSS]

this conversation is so ironic

First of all, contrary to what you may think, I am not bashing Bird here. HOWEVER, I am telling it like it is/was. He was not some "god" that was unstoppable. IMHO, his career merits a top-10 (near the bottom of the top-10), but he was nowhere near a GOAT.

Ok,...now tell me where you rank Magic and Bird, and why.

[LeBird]

What's also forgotten is that the East was FAR tougher than the West at the time. While that was arguably the most stacked era in NBA history; all the teams that were tough (Pistons, Sixers, Celtics and even the Bucks and later Bulls) were on the East with only the Lakers on the West.

For Bird, every season was a dog fight just to get to the finals and they were brutal. Magic's post-seasons were played against puff teams until the finals itself, for the most part. So looking at it just as a stats exercise is disingenuous.

And can you IMAGINE the kind of dynasty that would have happened if Bird was drafted into the Lakers instead? The Lakers already had a fantastic PG in Norm Nixon so the loss of Magic would have been lessened. Bird and Kareem would have been nuts. Then you think about the guys like Cooper, Worthy, Wilkes, etc. It would have looked like a Russell-type Dynasty.

If there is ever a "what if" argument for a player, Bird is the one where you really start getting a headache. He inherited a shitty franchise, turned them into one of the GOAT teams and did this with crippling injuries that most players would have ended their careers on. He's someone who had to sit in a body cast just to play and was still putting up 20/10/7. Heck, before he even got into the NBA a baseball injury forever deformed his finger and he had to learn to shoot all over again.

[dankok8]

When we talk about Magic scoring considerably more. Yes he could have scored 20-22 ppg for his career but mid 20's let alone 30's. No way... Magic even with a fully developed half court arsenal was still primarily a fast break scorer and it's there where he padded his efficiency. He was a killer on the break but in ISO situations or even just against a set defense there were many better options.

If you look at Magic's peak from 1987-1990 he actually shot a much much lower % than early in his career. It's because he had to score more in the half court. He had a strength advantage over most guards which helped in the post and a nice solid jumper but he wasn't a scoring machine.

[LAZERUSS]

What's also forgotten is that the East was FAR tougher than the West at the time. While that was arguably the most stacked era in NBA history; all the teams that were tough (Pistons, Sixers, Celtics and even the Bucks and later Bulls) were on the East with only the Lakers on the West.

For Bird, every season was a dog fight just to get to the finals and they were brutal. Magic's post-seasons were played against puff teams until the finals itself, for the most part. So looking at it just as a stats exercise is disingenuous.

And can you IMAGINE the kind of dynasty that would have happened if Bird was drafted into the Lakers instead? The Lakers already had a fantastic PG in Norm Nixon so the loss of Magic would have been lessened. Bird and Kareem would have been nuts. Then you think about the guys like Cooper, Worthy, Wilkes, etc. It would have looked like a Russell-type Dynasty.

If there is ever a "what if" argument for a player, Bird is the one where you really start getting a headache. He inherited a shitty franchise, turned them into one of the GOAT teams and did this with crippling injuries that most players would have ended their careers on. He's someone who had to sit in a body cast just to play and was still putting up 20/10/7. Heck, before he even got into the NBA a baseball injury forever deformed his finger and he had to learn to shoot all over again.

There is SO much wrong with this.

First of all, in the "tougher" eastern Conference, teams didn't even play a first round game until the 82-83 season. Then, in the second round, they would face a .500 team, or WORSE.

And how about this example...in the '83 post-season, Bird's Celtics beat a 43-39 Hawks team, and then were swept by a 51-31 Bucks team. He didn't get to face a certain slaughter in the 65-17 Sixers. That same post-season, LA beat a 46-36 Portland team in the second round, and a 53-29 San Antonio team in the WCF's. Then, without Worthy, and with a shell of a McAdoo (yes, the Lakers had INJURY issues too folks), they were swept by the Sixers.

Year-after-year of either no first round game, or else first round cannon-fodder, and then a borderline .500 team, and finally a top tier team. It was NEVER going thru a brutal playoffs. Hell, they even faced 30-52 teams later in the decade.

And the Lakers were beating just as many 50+teams as Boston was in the decade of the 80's. Furthermore, LA had LESS problems with those Eastern Conference champions in the 80's, than Boston did. The Lakers easily beat the Sixers in '80 and '82, while Boston lost to both, and barely beat the '81 Sixers. BTW, in '80, the Lakers routed the 56-26 defending champion Sonics in the WCF's. LA lost to the '83 Sixers, but Boston didn't even get far enough to face them. I have already documented that the '84 Lakers should have swept Boston. In '85 the 63-19 Celts beat a 58-24 Sixers team in ECF's, while LA routed a 52-30 Nuggets team in WCF's. Then in the Finals, the Lakers pounded Boston. Boston had a relatively easy run to the title in '86, and din't really face a powerhouse team at all. The Hawks were 50-32 and the Bucks were 57-25, and then luckily for Boston, the Lakers were stunned by the 54-28 Rockets in the WCF's. In '87, you could certainly make a case that Boston's road to the Finals was tougher, but then again, LA just annihilated Boston the Finals. Boston lost to the Pistons in ECF's in '88, while LA beat that same Piston team. In the late 80's and early 90's, the west was just as tough, if not tougher. BTW, Magic beat 2 60+ win teams in his post-season career...Bird only 1. And Bird lost with HCA 7 times...Magic 3.

The "what if" with Bird going to LA? It was no coincidence that KAJ's efficiency went up dramatically after Magic arrived, nor that Worthy's declined dramatically after Magic retired. Same with Wilkes, Vlade, et al all rose with magic...all better with Magic....and then players like Nixon...dropped dramatically after being traded.

Furthermore, we KNOW that Magic was capable of 25-30 ppg seasons, and he most certainly could have carried those STACKED Celtic rosters if he had been asked to do so.

[stanlove1111]

And then went on to have a 29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, .527 FG% regular season.

That "tendonitis" sure slowed him down.


Bird was obviously not the same player in 87-88 as he was during the 84-86 period. That was obvious to anyone watching him. I remember Jabbar commenting on it at the time. he said he knew something was wrong with Bird because all of a sudden he wasn't in the right spot all the time like he always was before. Said before that year Bird was always in your way whatever you tried to do.

What this should teach Laz once again is that stats don't tell the story. But instead he just keeps quoting stats.

By the way how much did Wilt score in game 6 of the 70 finals..Didn't he have 45 points and 27 rebounds? How could someone who had 45 pounds and 27 rebounds really be slowed by injury? Right Laz.

[stanlove1111]

There is SO much wrong with this.


Furthermore, we KNOW that Magic was capable of 25-30 ppg seasons, and he most certainly could have carried those STACKED Celtic rosters if he had been asked to do so.


Obviously Lazes arguments are this thread are ridiculous and the tortured logic to back up his arguments are like always painfull to read, but I do agree with him about Magic's scoring..Magic could have easily scored a ton of points if that was his goal.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird was obviously not the same player in 87-88 as he was during the 84-86 period. That was obvious to anyone watching him. I remember Jabbar commenting on it at the time. he said he knew something was wrong with Bird because all of a sudden he wasn't in the right spot all the time like he always was before. Said before that year Bird was always in your way whatever you tried to do.

What this should teach Laz once again is that stats don't tell the story. But instead he just keeps quoting stats.

By the way how much did Wilt score in game 6 of the 7 finals..Didn't he have 45 points and 27 rebounds? How could someone who had 45 pounds and 27 rebounds really be slowed by injury? Right Laz.

Of course, right? Wilt was the ONLY great EXPECTED to put up 45-27 20-27 games EVERY time he played. So, when a one-legged Wilt could "only" put up a game seven of 21-24 on 10-16...well, that was the same as Bird shooting .351 in the '88 ECF's. And we KNOW that MJ put up 63 point games in EVERY post-season game he played in, right?

Yep. Typical idiotic post.

[colts19]

All I can say is that anyone who would question Bird's toughness and imply he wasn't really injured is a idiot.

[stanlove1111]

Of course, right? Wilt was the ONLY great EXPECTED to put up 45-27 20-27 games EVERY time he played. So, when a one-legged Wilt could "only" put up a game seven of 21-24 on 10-16...well, that was the same as Bird shooting .351 in the '88 ECF's. And we KNOW that MJ put up 63 point games in EVERY post-season game he played in, right?

Yep. Typical idiotic post.


Your post doesn't address my point all but whats new..

My point is Wilt was obviously not at his best in the 1970 finals but still was able to put up big numbers..You can not be at your best and still be able to put up numbers like Bird in 87-88 and after.


And please stop talking about a one legged Wilt in game 7 of that series when he was playing against a guy who could barely move.

[dankok8]

Your post doesn't address my point all but whats new..

My point is Wilt was obviously not at his best in the 1970 finals but still was able to put up big numbers..You can not be at your best and still be able to put up numbers like Bird in 87-88 and after.


And please stop talking about a one legged Wilt in game 7 of that series when he was playing against a guy who could barely move.

LAZERUSS also wouldn't share the full stat line for Wilt in that game including the unofficial data:

21 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 blocks, 6 turnovers on 10-16 from the field and 1-11 from the line in 48 minutes played and in a blowout loss

He also doesn't indicate what a matador defense Wilt played and how the Knicks had a lay-up line to the basket. Now the whole Laker team played like shit and got destroyed but so did Wilt.

[kshutts1]

If the MVP voting had been done at the end of the Finals, I can assure you that Magic would have easily out-voted Bird in '80, and '82. And as bad as Bird was in his '83 post-season, Magic likely would have outvoted him in that season, as well.

I have conceded that Bird was the better player from '84 thru '86, but again, in the '85 post-season, Magic was clearly better.
MVP is a regular season award. Always has been.
Similarly, the regular season is 82 games long. The postseason, back then, was 26(?) at most.

Now, I'm all for a POMVP and a RSMVP, but that's not what this thread is about. "Fact" is, Bird was seen as the better player until the later 80's, during the vast majority of the season+playoffs by the majority of the people.

I have Magic in my second tier, Bird in my first. Most of what I have heard and read about the 80's, since I didn't watch it, was that at the time, Bird was considered the superior player.

[kshutts1]

Magic had stretches in his career, even early on, where he would string 30 even an occasional 40 point game. Later in his career, those strings grew. For instance, in his 86-87 season, he had a 15 game streak of 34, 38, 46, 30, 28, 4, 32, 26, 20, 25, 38, 26, 31, 26, and 42 points.
I think Kobe had 7 straight 40+ games in a row? Maybe more. Clearly Kobe could average 40 for a whole season.

I thought that your exaggerating/misuse of the facts was solely a Wilt thing, because there are so many Wilt-haters out there. Didn't realize that was.. you.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Either Lazeruss is VERY stupid or just plain trolling at this point...
Some of the shit he types, just :facepalm

Just another thread where he's getting owned by people who were alive back in the day and/or actually know their shit.
Then he just goes against his own "logic" all the time, resorting to selected stats, fallacies and just plain dumb/ignorant stuff... Showing no actual knowledge about the game and its history, showing a different age than what he claims.

Plus, you'll always see some of his alts popping up in threads like these:

Houston; Audio1 - clear to see, clear as day

Pointguard - maybe

Then we all know he used to post as jlauber.

Just a huge amount of posts, tons of essays, huge amount of time, always in order to push the same agenda, mostly ignorant as hell, even showing an unhealthy "love" about certain players (MAINLY Wilt)... it's just... sad.

[mehyaM24]

so the consensus is that bird was better from 1981-88, and then when he had debilitating injuries that needed surgery, magic took over, finally becoming the better of the two?

that's what most are saying - and what many were saying at the time. :cheers:

[JohnnySic]

P

Same thing with the "injuries" that his teammates supposedly had...particularly the 86-87 season, and post-season, when LA just murdered the Celtics. McHale sustained a "broken foot" in his 86-87 season....which, BTW, was the greatest regular season of his career. He then went on to average a 21-9 .584 post-season, and in the Finals, all he could do was put up an identical 21-9 .585 series. And the "injured" Parish? A 17-7 .592 FG% Finals...AND, an 18-9 .567 POST-SEASON, which was arguably the best of his career, and at the very least, near the best.

And again, I don't recall Bird's "injuries" in the '87 post-season, and in which, he averaged a near career high 27.0 ppg, which included games of 42 and 40 points. True, against the Lakers his numbers tumbled, but in his other 17 games...28.1 ppg on a .485 FG%. Against the Lakers? 24.2 ppg on a .445 FG%. Evidently any injuries he might have had, didn't pop up until the Finals.

Furthermore, Bird had ONE outstanding game in the '87 Finals...32 points on 14-25 shooting...and guess what, his team was blown out. So, what does that tell you? The REALITY was, the Lakers were a few points away from SWEEPING Boston (just like they SHOULD have in '84)...and were CRUSHED in three of their losses. A healthy MJ wouldn't have prevented a Laker romp in that Finals.

I find it fascinating that the Bird-lovers almost always use the "injury" excuse, but it certainly appears to me that those "injuries" were awfully selective, don't you agree?


Only an idiot of massive proportions would deny that the Celtics were completely decimated by injuries in '87.

They were without their 2 key reserves, Walton and Wedman, for essentially the entire season. This contributed to the wear on the starters who were forced to play heroic minutes with almost no bench support. And the end result was injuries to McHale, Parish, Ainge, etc.

And that's aside fdrom the fact hat the east was far tougher than the west in the 80's. In '87 in particular, the west was as weak as it ever was, essentially an NBDL league,. As pathetic as the east is now, the west then was even weaker; anyone who's old enough to remember can verify this.

Just for fun, I'm going to flip the tables:

I'll assume the Celtics get to the finals at full strength, no injuries to anyone. I'll also assume that the Celtics skate to the finals against teams with a combined 118-128 record (which is what the Lakers did that year.) Nice and cozy.

Meanwhile the Lakers lose their 2 key reserves, Cooper and Green (Walton and Wedman) for the entire season. Without bench strength, Riley is forced to drive his starters into the ground. Kareem (McHale) breaks his foot, comes back too early, and is never the same. Worthy (Parish) sprains both ankles but gamely keeps playing. Scott (Ainge) injures his hamstring at the start of the playoffs. Rambis (Sichting) has some weird persistent virus, limiting his effectiveness.

The Lakers hobble into the payoffs. The first round they sweep, then endure 2 brutal 7 game series. The team they squeak by in the wcf (Pistons) is young and hungry and ready to compete for a title. Only with a lot of luck and a miracle play by Magic do the Lakers advance.

Worn and beaten up, the Lakers limp into the finals to face a healthy, rested Celtics team playing at the top of their game.

You tell me who wins that series.

Only a Lakers fan could brag about winning that Finals. Which is why they are the most biased, ignorant, and retarded fan base in North American pro sports.

[Pointguard]

Either Lazeruss is VERY stupid or just plain trolling at this point...
Some of the shit he types, just :facepalm

Just another thread where he's getting owned by people who were alive back in the day and/or actually know their shit.
Then he just goes against his own "logic" all the time, resorting to selected stats, fallacies and just plain dumb/ignorant stuff... Showing no actual knowledge about the game and its history, showing a different age than what he claims.

Plus, you'll always see some of his alts popping up in threads like these:

Houston; Audio1 - clear to see, clear as day

Pointguard - maybe

Then we all know he used to post as jlauber.

Just a huge amount of posts, tons of essays, huge amount of time, always in order to push the same agenda, mostly ignorant as hell, even showing an unhealthy "love" about certain players (MAINLY Wilt)... it's just... sad.

Laz and I have a very different style. Audio1, I haven't seen that screename in a while. Houston??? In general Laz style is so different, and pristine in details he would have been exposed by now. It doesn't make sense that a guy that obviously is one of the best debaters would need to be another guy. Its like MJ coming on the court being baby Jordan???

If the conversation was more about Magic I would join in.

At best you guys are only holding him at bay. So, calling him stupid/dumb/ignorant while there are six or seven of you guys is not doing you any favors.

[LAZERUSS]

I think Kobe had 7 straight 40+ games in a row? Maybe more. Clearly Kobe could average 40 for a whole season.

I thought that your exaggerating/misuse of the facts was solely a Wilt thing, because there are so many Wilt-haters out there. Didn't realize that was.. you.


Magic was averaging 30 ppg in that same span...AND 10+ apg. Thanks for playing though.

[LAZERUSS]

so the consensus is that bird was better from 1981-88, and then when he had debilitating injuries that needed surgery, magic took over, finally becoming the better of the two?

that's what most are saying - and what many were saying at the time. :cheers:

Yep...proves that Bird must have been injured the entire decade then.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS also wouldn't share the full stat line for Wilt in that game including the unofficial data:

21 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 blocks, 6 turnovers on 10-16 from the field and 1-11 from the line in 48 minutes played and in a blowout loss

He also doesn't indicate what a matador defense Wilt played and how the Knicks had a lay-up line to the basket. Now the whole Laker team played like shit and got destroyed but so did Wilt.

So what? A BAD series for Wilt to be sure... 23-24 .625. Incidently a HEALTHY Wilt was averaging 32-20 .579 before he shredded his knee that same season. So, obviously he wasn't at 100%...and in fact., not even close to it.

[LAZERUSS]

All I can say is that anyone who would question Bird's toughness and imply he wasn't really injured is a idiot.

No one is question Bird's ACTUAL injuries...just the MANY that so many other's claimed he had. Which apparently was the entire decade. And again, he had his greatest seasons when he was supposedly injured. how come he played worse in the few seasons in which he was healthy?

[LAZERUSS]

MVP is a regular season award. Always has been.
Similarly, the regular season is 82 games long. The postseason, back then, was 26(?) at most.

Now, I'm all for a POMVP and a RSMVP, but that's not what this thread is about. "Fact" is, Bird was seen as the better player until the later 80's, during the vast majority of the season+playoffs by the majority of the people.

I have Magic in my second tier, Bird in my first. Most of what I have heard and read about the 80's, since I didn't watch it, was that at the time, Bird was considered the superior player.

This thread is about the ONE PASS that COST Magic a ring and a FMVP.

We already know that his career was much better than Bird's.

[LAZERUSS]

Either Lazeruss is VERY stupid or just plain trolling at this point...
Some of the shit he types, just :facepalm

Just another thread where he's getting owned by people who were alive back in the day and/or actually know their shit.
Then he just goes against his own "logic" all the time, resorting to selected stats, fallacies and just plain dumb/ignorant stuff... Showing no actual knowledge about the game and its history, showing a different age than what he claims.

Plus, you'll always see some of his alts popping up in threads like these:

Houston; Audio1 - clear to see, clear as day

Pointguard - maybe

Then we all know he used to post as jlauber.

Just a huge amount of posts, tons of essays, huge amount of time, always in order to push the same agenda, mostly ignorant as hell, even showing an unhealthy "love" about certain players (MAINLY Wilt)... it's just... sad.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

THE POS poster of ISH. One day you may even try real research instead of using coloring books.

Keep it up...

[LeBird]

so the consensus is that bird was better from 1981-88, and then when he had debilitating injuries that needed surgery, magic took over, finally becoming the better of the two?

that's what most are saying - and what many were saying at the time. :cheers:

What's unfortunate is that Bird could have been even better than he was around 85-88 - which sounds incredible when you realise in 88 he was putting up 30/9/6 on 53/41/92. He first hurt his back in 1985 working on his mom's driveway and he gradually got worse, more stiffer, and less athletic as he tried to manage his back and play basketball at the highest level, in the strongest conference of the strongest era in NBA history. Carrying a team that was also injury ravaged in that time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tR4JjeaAU8

[colts19]

A look at why context matters. Lebron James.
We have people on this board who claim Lebron has great career already than Bird did. So let's take Lebron and his team back to the 80's.

1979-80 Bird, Magic and Lebron arrive in the league the same year. What happens.

ROY Bird beat magic for ROY by a vote of 63 to 3. Instead of Lebron being a clear ROY winner he probably would have not even received a vote.

His team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team in the league.
MVP Kareem

1980-1981 his team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team in the league.
MVP Julius Erving

1981-82 His team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team.
MVP Moses

1982-83 6th or 7th best
MVP Moses

83-84 7th or 8th best team
MVP Bird

84-85 7th or 8th
MVP Bird

85-86 8th best team
MVP Bird

86-87 first year with miami 6th best in league
MVP Magic

87-88 5th best team
MVP Jordan

88-89 4th best team
MVP Magic

89-90 4th or 5th
MVP Magic

Lebron plays his whole career and never wins a Title, MVP, FMVP or even makes a Final. Would be considered a poor mans Big O.

I think if you look at it, you could easily say the Milw. Bucks of the 80's were clearly better than Lebrons teams for at least 7of the 11 years and probably 9 of them.
My point is context is everything. When you play your whole career is a weak conference you tend to get more credit than you should

[Pointguard]

A look at why context matters. Lebron James.
We have people on this board who claim Lebron has great career already than Bird did. So let's take Lebron and his team back to the 80's.

1979-80 Bird, Magic and Lebron arrive in the league the same year. What happens.

ROY Bird beat magic for ROY by a vote of 63 to 3. Instead of Lebron being a clear ROY winner he probably would have not even received a vote.

His team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team in the league.
MVP Kareem

1980-1981 his team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team in the league.
MVP Julius Erving

1981-82 His team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team.
MVP Moses

1982-83 6th or 7th best
MVP Moses

83-84 7th or 8th best team
MVP Bird

84-85 7th or 8th
MVP Bird

85-86 8th best team
MVP Bird

86-87 first year with miami 6th best in league
MVP Magic

87-88 5th best team
MVP Jordan

88-89 4th best team
MVP Magic

89-90 4th or 5th
MVP Magic

Lebron plays his whole career and never wins a Title, MVP, FMVP or even makes a Final. Would be considered a poor mans Big O.

I think if you look at it, you could easily say the Milw. Bucks of the 80's were clearly better than Lebrons teams for at least 7of the 11 years and probably 9 of them.
My point is context is everything. When you play your whole career is a weak conference you tend to get more credit than you should
Magic beat the Eastern Conference five times. And was very close to doing six if he himself didn't lose the game - thus Tragic Magic. He had bad injuries in two other years but still beat every major dynasty out East. Definitely ain't overhyping or an argument of conferences.

[colts19]

Magic beat the Eastern Conference five times. And was very close to doing six if he himself didn't lose the game - thus Tragic Magic. He had bad injuries in two other years but still beat every major dynasty out East. Definitely ain't overhyping or an argument of conferences.

You don't understand my post. I am simply saying Lebron with the same teams he played with and with what they accomplished, move them back to the 80's and Lebron ain't winning crap. No Titles, mvp, fmvp or anything else. Because the competition was just to much for those teams to win.

[97 bulls]

I gotta say I agree with Laz. The injury excuse is overblown. I mean, Bird is human right? He can't heal from those injuries?

[97 bulls]

And what does it say for the league that an unatletic cripple with degenerative injuries is able to do what he did.

[mehyaM24]

What's unfortunate is that Bird could have been even better than he was around 85-88 - which sounds incredible when you realise in 88 he was putting up 30/9/6 on 53/41/92. He first hurt his back in 1985 working on his mom's driveway and he gradually got worse, more stiffer, and less athletic as he tried to manage his back and play basketball at the highest level, in the strongest conference of the strongest era in NBA history. Carrying a team that was also injury ravaged in that time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tR4JjeaAU8

incredible. people don't understand that bird was healthy from 81-88 (relatively) and that is was only in the 88 PLAYOFFS where he broke down - and funny enough, magic FINALLY became the leagues best player (which was ALSO short lived because of guys like barkley, jordan, drexler, robinson etc).

the consensus at the time, as i said, was that bird reigned supreme for all through the 80s, but that injury in 1988 just made him a shell, as ainge would put it.

what-ifs for bird are always interesting.

[colts19]

And what does it say for the league that an unatletic cripple with degenerative injuries is able to do what he did.

It says that the Legend was a Bad Man.

[kshutts1]

This thread is about the ONE PASS that COST Magic a ring and a FMVP.

We already know that his career was much better than Bird's.
My apologies. Then I agree wholeheartedly. Magic may have lost a ring and a FMVP because he messed up. Happens every year.

As for the scoring... at the time, Magic's scoring prowess was being argued. I'm fairly certain your sole argument was that Magic had a streak of such games... something like eleven straight... that "clearly" showed he could score when he wanted. So I "counted" in kind.

[LAZERUSS]

My apologies. Then I agree wholeheartedly. Magic may have lost a ring and a FMVP because he messed up. Happens every year.

As for the scoring... at the time, Magic's scoring prowess was being argued. I'm fairly certain your sole argument was that Magic had a streak of such games... something like eleven straight... that "clearly" showed he could score when he wanted. So I "counted" in kind.


So you are claiming that Magic was not a "scorer", nor that he was capable of being a "scorer?"

How about this...in the career H2H's between Bird and Magic, guess who had the highest scoring game? Yep...Magic. Not only that, but he had the TWO highest scoring games in their long rivalry (games of 37 and 39 points.)

How about his 86-87 season? 23.9 ppg on a .522 FG%...and with a league-leading 12.2 apg. THEN, in the Finals against your boy Bird...guess who led ALL players in scoring in that series? Yep...Magic, at 26.0 ppg and on a .541 FG%, while Bird put up 24.2 ppg on his usual .449 FG%. Oh, and I forgot...Magic also handed out 13.0 apg, as well!

How many 42 point Finals games did your boy Bird have in his career, much less one that was the clincher? By the way...that was in Magic's rookie season, and in a Finals in which he put up a 22-11-9 series...and on a .573 FG% and a .635 TS%.


I gave you a streak of 15 games, but let's extend that out to 19 straight games...31, 34, 25, 17, 34, 38, 46, 30, 28, 4, 32, 26, 20, 25, 38, 26, 31, 26, 42...

Let's throw out that 4 point game (a game in which Magic played 29 minutes, took 4 FGAs, and handed out 18 assists...in a 140-104 win...obviously Magic wasn't into inflating his stats.)

So, here we go...

548 points in essentially 18 straight games...or a 30.4 ppg average. on a .522 FG%...AND, with 195 assists, or...10.8 apg!

How about the second round of the '90 playoffs? Games of 22, 22, 21, and then with his teammates crumbling, games of 43 and 43. A 30.2 ppg, . 500 FG%, AND...12.3 apg series!

And how about back-to-back seasons of 18 ppg on FG%'s of .561 and .565...to go along with 13 apg? (and on TS%'s of .628 and .637.)

Now I ask you one more time...

do you honestly believe that a motivated Magic was not capable of scoring FAR more than he actually did in his career?

[dankok8]

LAZERUSS...

Magic was NOT an elite scorer. He didn't have the tools to dominate in the half court the way great scorers in the history of the game did. Besides that let's not ignore the obvious points...

After scoring 42 points in that infamous Game 6, the next time Magic eclipsed 30 points in the playoffs is in 1983.... 3 years later!

Magic Regular Season Scoring:

zero 60+ point games
zero 50+ point games
six 40+ point games
ninety-three 30+ point games

Bird Regular Season Scoring:

one 60+ point game
four 50+ point games
fourty-seven 40+ point games
two hundred and twenty-three 30+ point games

Magic Playoff Scoring:

four 40+ point games
three 30+ point games

Bird Playoff Scoring:

five 40+ point games
fourty-three 30+ point games

This disparity is way too huge to say "if only Magic tried to score more". Anyone who watched them knows Bird was the greater scorer. And it's not close. Magic was the better passer no one doubts that. "What if Bird played PG?". That would be talking like you.

[97 bulls]

It says that the Legend was a Bad Man.
No. It says man, the league was bad.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS...

Magic was NOT an elite scorer. He didn't have the tools to dominate in the half court the way great scorers in the history of the game did. Besides that let's not ignore the obvious points...

After scoring 42 points in that infamous Game 6, the next time Magic eclipsed 30 points in the playoffs is in 1983.... 3 years later!

Magic Regular Season Scoring:

zero 60+ point games
zero 50+ point games
six 40+ point games
ninety-three 30+ point games

Bird Regular Season Scoring:

one 60+ point game
four 50+ point games
fourty-seven 40+ point games
two hundred and twenty-three 30+ point games

Magic Playoff Scoring:

four 40+ point games
three 30+ point games

Bird Playoff Scoring:

five 40+ point games
fourty-three 30+ point games

This disparity is way too huge to say "if only Magic tried to score more". Anyone who watched them knows Bird was the greater scorer. And it's not close. Magic was the better passer no one doubts that. "What if Bird played PG?". That would be talking like you.


I guess then that Bird was nowhere near the SHOOTER that Magic was then, either, right? Magic shot .520 from the field, and had a career .610 TS. In his post-season, Magic was at .506 and .595. He also shot .516 in his Finals, with several well into the .600+ TS% range.

Bird? .496 career regular season FG%, and a career .564 TS%. Then in the playoffs... .472 FG% and a .551 TS%. His career FG% in his five Finals... .455.

Only a complete idiot would claim that Magic couldn't have scores MUCH more in his career. BTW, in his very last post-season, he hung games of 38 (wiping out Hakeem and his Rockets), and then 44 against the Warriors. CLEARLY, had he been intent on SCORING, instead of making his teammates FAR better (again, KAJ, Wilkes, Worthy, Scott, Vlade,...all MUCH higher efficiencies with Magic, than without...and Nixon went into the tank after Magic)...easily 25-30 ppg.

[LeBird]

You've convinced me. Bird > Magic > Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

You've convinced me. Bird > Magic > Wilt.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[kshutts1]

What I'm saying is that Magic would not, could not, maintain a 30ppg on high efficiency over a long span of time. You gave a relatively small sample size, relative to his career. I countered with a similarly small sample size of Kobe. We both know Kobe couldn't average 40ppg on similar efficiency to that streak. We both know Magic couldn't average 30ppg on high efficiency like during that streak.

There are not many times I say this, but if you truly don't see how that small sample size proves nothing, and that maintaining over a longer period is more difficult, then my opinion of you will be lowered quite a bit. Knowledgeable? Without a doubt. Knowing the game? Maybe not so much.

[LAZERUSS]

I gotta say I agree with Laz. The injury excuse is overblown. I mean, Bird is human right? He can't heal from those injuries?

It's not just that, either. Again, in the seasons in which he was supposedly injured...CAREER best years...albeit, he stunk in the playoffs. In his few healthy years, ... lessor player.

[LAZERUSS]

What I'm saying is that Magic would not, could not, maintain a 30ppg on high efficiency over a long span of time. You gave a relatively small sample size, relative to his career. I countered with a similarly small sample size of Kobe. We both know Kobe couldn't average 40ppg on similar efficiency to that streak. We both know Magic couldn't average 30ppg on high efficiency like during that streak.

There are not many times I say this, but if you truly don't see how that small sample size proves nothing, and that maintaining over a longer period is more difficult, then my opinion of you will be lowered quite a bit. Knowledgeable? Without a doubt. Knowing the game? Maybe not so much.

The trouble is...you are claiming that Magic didn't score more, because he couldn't. I am telling you...than man had seasons of 24 ppg with 12 apg, and post-seasons of 26 ppg and 13 apg. These are not some small sample sizes...these are entire seasons and post-seasons.

Magic made his teammates FAR better. That is why he has the highest career W-L percentage in NBA history (BTW, he had a HIGHER W-L% withOUT Kareem, than with KAJ... .743 to .740.)

His scoring came on solid, if not spectacular efficiency, too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No. It says man, the league was bad.
The 90s were amazing though, huh? :oldlol: Bird was one of the greatest players ever, at a time where your franchises best player (and arguably the GOAT) was getting bounced around in the playoffs ad nauseam.

[LAZERUSS]

You've convinced me. Bird > Magic > Wilt.

Let me help "convince" you even more


this from Colts18...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

And here is his playoff shooting...


80 EDF's 48-109 .440
81 Finals 39-93 .419
82 EDF's 54-131 .412

83 1st round 23-57 .404
83 2nd round 26-59 .441

84 Finals 62-128 .484

85 2nd round 65-145 .448
85 ECF's 39-93 .419
85 Finals 53-118 .449

86 Finals 53-110 .482

87 Finals 53-119 .449

88 EDF's 40-114 .351


81 Finals

9-17
8-18
3-11
3-11
5-16
11-20


84 Finals

7-17
8-22
9-16
9-24
15-20
8-11
6-18


85 Finals

8-14
9-21
8-21
8-16
8-17
12-29


86 Finals

8-18
12-19
10-26
9-17
6-13
8-17


87 Finals

14-25
9-17
10-24
7-19
7-18
6-16

31 games
11 50% or better
11 39% or worse 2 of 29% or worse

[La Frescobaldi]

First of all, contrary to what you may think, I am not bashing Bird here. HOWEVER, I am telling it like it is/was. He was not some "god" that was unstoppable. IMHO, his career merits a top-10 (near the bottom of the top-10), but he was nowhere near a GOAT.

Ok,...now tell me where you rank Magic and Bird, and why.

Ironic because I was never a Bird fan.
The dude was a freaking #%@ Boston Celtic.

Ironic because both of us were Showtime diehards; but here I am defending the enemy while you get to defend our own favorite team.

Ironic because AS YOU KNOW virtually nobody had Magic as the better until after Bird was injured, yet you refuse to acknowledge those injuries.... or worse, belittle them.... even though MVP voting just for example was strongly to overwhelmingly in favor of Bird. AS YOU KNOW.

Ironic because Bird routinely destroyed Jordan so that Magic didn't ever have to face him and when he did meet Mike.... he was personally great but overall just got devoured like a cupcake with the little sprinkles on top:
http://www.holycool.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Neat-Eats-Magic-Cupcake-Hats.jpg

Ironic because throughout this thread you are using exactly the same logic against Bird that is used against Chamberlain, who you defend remorselessly.

Ironic.

Ranking? They are both in the 2nd tier with Bryant, Duncan, Havlicek, Frazier, Malone, and all those other elite guys not named Chamberlain, Jabbar or Jordan.

It's just that Bird was better until the injuries. As everybody knew except
LA-ZtannERs..............

:lol

[LAZERUSS]

Ironic because I was never a Bird fan.
The dude was a freaking #%@ Boston Celtic.

Ironic because both of us were Showtime diehards; but here I am defending the enemy while you get to defend our own favorite team.

Ironic because AS YOU KNOW virtually nobody had Magic as the better until after Bird was injured, yet you refuse to acknowledge those injuries.... or worse, belittle them.... even though MVP voting just for example was strongly to overwhelmingly in favor of Bird. AS YOU KNOW.

Ironic because Bird routinely destroyed Jordan so that Magic didn't ever have to face him and when he did meet Mike.... he was personally great but overall just got devoured like a cupcake with the little sprinkles on top.

Ironic because throughout this thread you are using exactly the same logic against Bird that is used against Chamberlain, who you defend remorselessly.

Ironic.

Ranking? They are both in the 2nd tier with Bryant, Duncan, Havlicek, Frazier, Malone, and all those other elite guys not named Chamberlain, Jabbar or Jordan.

It's just that Bird was better until the injuries. As everybody knew except
LA-ZtannERs..............

:lol

Yep...sure he was my friend...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Meanwhile, Magic was MAGNIFICENT in his post-season play throughout his ENTIRE career. Better player in ENTIRE seasons to be sure. One right-after-the-other.

Post-seasons...

Bird in '81, '84, and '86
Magic in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, 89, '90. and '91.

H2H...Magic.

Finally...about that "MVP" edge...how about comparing these two AGE-FOR-AGE, PEAK-FOR-PEAK, PRIME-FOR-PRIME, and CAREER-FOR-CAREER?????

Oh, and as in OP...Magic was ONE PASS away from this...

SIX RINGS, and 4 FMVPs...which would have left Bird at... 2 RINGS, and 1 FMVP.

[fpliii]

Wait, is colts18 = colts19? I'm super confused...

[La Frescobaldi]

Bird was obviously not the same player in 87-88 as he was during the 84-86 period. That was obvious to anyone watching him. I remember Jabbar commenting on it at the time. he said he knew something was wrong with Bird because all of a sudden he wasn't in the right spot all the time like he always was before. Said before that year Bird was always in your way whatever you tried to do.

What this should teach Laz once again is that stats don't tell the story. But instead he just keeps quoting stats.

By the way how much did Wilt score in game 6 of the 70 finals..Didn't he have 45 points and 27 rebounds? How could someone who had 45 pounds and 27 rebounds really be slowed by injury? Right Laz.

Bird had clearly changed for the worse.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird had clearly changed for the worse.

I know... 29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, and a career high .527 FG%. EASILY the greatest regular season of his career. He even had one of his few good post-season series against the Hawks, and perhaps his greatest game seven. THEN...the roof caved in...and a horrid ECF's against the Pistons. The same Piston team that Magic would dominate in the Finals.

Reminds me of McHale's broken foot. CAREER best season, and second greatest post-season of his career.

[LAZERUSS]

Wait, is colts18 = colts19? I'm super confused...


No he is much more knowledgable. However, he doesn't post here.

[colts19]

Wait, is colts18 = colts19? I'm super confused...
To answer, I am colts19. I use colts19 because I was a Johnny Unitas fan. That's right I'm really old.

[fpliii]

To answer, I am colts19. I use colts19 because I was a Johnny Unitas fan. That's right I'm really old.
Ah, makes sense. There's another poster named colts18 who posts on RealGM (who LAZ quoted above). He's also a Colts fan, who presumably chose 18 because of Peyton Manning.

[LAZERUSS]

Ah, makes sense. There's another poster named colts18 who posts on RealGM (who LAZ quoted above). He's also a Colts fan, who presumably chose 18 because of Peyton Manning.

He is actual quite brilliant. He goes in-depth and really breaks games, series, and careers down exceptionally well.

And you simply can't argue with his take on Bird's post-seasons, either.

[colts19]

No he is much more knowledgable. However, he doesn't post here.
Using the same stupid stats argument all the time like you do, doesn't make him more knowledgeable than me. I grew up in Indiana home of basketball. Have played and watched it all my life. I have forgot more basketball than you will ever know.

I can use the eye test and understand the game much better than those twisted stats that you use. You can throw out all kinds of crap and think if someone doesn't respond with the same type of crap they don't know anything.

You are a fool.

[LAZERUSS]

Using the same stupid stats argument all the time like you do, doesn't make him more knowledgeable than me. I grew up in Indiana home of basketball. Have played and watched it all my life. I have forgot more basketball than you will ever know.

I can use the eye test and understand the game much better than those twisted stats that you use. You can throw out all kinds of crap and think if someone doesn't respond with the same type of crap they don't know anything.

You are a fool.

Yep...the famous "stats always lie" argument. That's why Vegas doesn't bother with any statistical analysis when setting betting lines.

[eliteballer]

Playoffs:

18.3 pts, 10.5 rebs, 9.4 ast, 3.1 stl, 52% FG

Finals:

21.5 pts, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl, 57 FG%


Know what those are?

Magic's numbers as a 20 year old ROOKIE. How many runs does Bird have as good as that, let alone better?

Know what Bird was doing at 20? Collecting garbage in French Lick.

Still no one has an answer for Magic CLEARLY AND REPEATEDLY outplaying PEAK Bird head to head in the finals....despite being 3 YEARS YOUNGER.

Actually wait, the answer is "Well Bird got a lot of press in the early and mid 80's because he was the Great White Hope playing in a big East Coast city, so the media gave him MVP's."

[LAZERUSS]

Playoffs:

18.3 pts, 10.5 rebs, 9.4 ast, 3.1 stl, 52% FG

Finals:

21.5 pts, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl, 57 FG%


Know what those are?

Magic's numbers as a 20 year old ROOKIE. How many runs does Bird have as good as that, let alone better?

Know what Bird was doing at 20? Collecting garbage in French Lick.

Still no one has an answer for Magic CLEARLY AND REPEATEDLY outplaying PEAK Bird head to head in the finals....despite being 3 YEARS YOUNGER.

Not only that, but the Bird-lovers will never acknowledge that Magic, at the same ages, had accomplished far more.

Furthermore, Bird's "peak" years came in the early to mid-80's...while Magic's peak, at the same ages, came from the mid-80's into the 90's. Peak-for-peak...pretty damned close. Prime-for-prime...Magic starts to pull away. Entire career-for-entire-career...Magic by a solid margin.

[colts19]

He is actual quite brilliant. He goes in-depth and really breaks games, series, and careers down exceptionally well.

And you simply can't argue with his take on Bird's post-seasons, either.

So you post as colts18 on realgm.

Your right about one thing. Magic is greater than Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Ironic because throughout this thread you are using exactly the same logic against Bird that is used against Chamberlain, who you defend remorselessly.



What exactly? Injuries? Chamberlain basically had TWO post-seasons in which injuries affected his play, and in one, he was missing teammates right-and-left. He also had another post-season in which his TWO top teammates didn't play at all.

Oh, and in both of those "injury" years, Chamberlain's team lost game sevens to the eventual champions...one of them by four points.

In Bird's many injury seasons, his teams were losing with HCA, getting swept in early rounds, and losing when he was shooting .351 in those series...blah, blah, blah...

"Injured" Wilt? Post-seasons of 23.7 ppg, 24.7 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on a .534 FG%...and then, only four months after major knee surgery, and when no one expected him to play again that season...22.1 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.5 apg, and on a .549 FG%.

Oh, and in the post-season in which BOTH of his best teammates didn't play, and only a year after that major knee surgery, and clearly nowhere near his peak, he statistically outplayed a PEAK Kareem.

Chamberlain was truly DOMINANT in his "injured" post-seasons.

[LAZERUSS]

So you post as colts18 on realgm.

Your right about one thing. Magic is greater than Wilt.

I have Magic right there with Wilt...and WELL AHEAD of Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

A look at why context matters. Lebron James.
We have people on this board who claim Lebron has great career already than Bird did. So let's take Lebron and his team back to the 80's.

1979-80 Bird, Magic and Lebron arrive in the league the same year. What happens.

ROY Bird beat magic for ROY by a vote of 63 to 3. Instead of Lebron being a clear ROY winner he probably would have not even received a vote.

His team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team in the league.
MVP Kareem

1980-1981 his team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team in the league.
MVP Julius Erving

1981-82 His team would have been about the 6th or 7th best team.
MVP Moses

1982-83 6th or 7th best
MVP Moses

83-84 7th or 8th best team
MVP Bird

84-85 7th or 8th
MVP Bird

85-86 8th best team
MVP Bird

86-87 first year with miami 6th best in league
MVP Magic

87-88 5th best team
MVP Jordan

88-89 4th best team
MVP Magic

89-90 4th or 5th
MVP Magic

Lebron plays his whole career and never wins a Title, MVP, FMVP or even makes a Final. Would be considered a poor mans Big O.

I think if you look at it, you could easily say the Milw. Bucks of the 80's were clearly better than Lebrons teams for at least 7of the 11 years and probably 9 of them.
My point is context is everything. When you play your whole career is a weak conference you tend to get more credit than you should

What team does Lebron land on in the 80's? The Sixers as a PF..or...a PG? WOW! Almost an entire decade of winning rings, and splitting MVPs with teammates. Only Magic's Lakers would have had a chance...

[Pointguard]

Not only that, but the Bird-lovers will never acknowledge that Magic, at the same ages, had accomplished far more.
This and it did take awhile for Bird to adapt to pressure. The more pressure, the more unsteady he got. Even when they won it all this was the case. It bothered his playoff consistency til the '84 year. Then his confidence took over for the next three years. But I can't see another interpretation of '80-83 where in the playoffs, he wasn't a consistent player. Definitely was one of the best, but erratic.

[LAZERUSS]

This and it did take awhile for Bird to adapt to pressure. The more pressure, the more unsteady he got. Even when they won it all this was the case. It bothered his playoff consistency til the '84 year. Then his confidence took over for the next three years. But I can't see another interpretation of '80-83 where in the playoffs, he wasn't a consistent player. Definitely was one of the best, but erratic.

Oh clearly. Magic IMMEDIATELY took over in his post-seasons. And he would be great in his entire post-season career. Bird...not so much.

The Bird-lovers can argue his edges in the regular season MVP balloting, but AGE-FOR-AGE, Magic's peak was equally as impressive, and again, better in the post-season, as well. Then, extend this to prime-for-prime, and Magic begins to pull away. Career-for-career? It is decisively Magic...especially with his overwhelming edge in post-season play.

How about Bird from '84 thru '86 vs. Magic from '87 to 89? Then Bird from '82 thru '88, and Magic from '85 thru '91? And of course...Bird from '80 thru '91 and Magic from '80 thru '91?

[dankok8]

I guess then that Bird was nowhere near the SHOOTER that Magic was then, either, right? Magic shot .520 from the field, and had a career .610 TS. In his post-season, Magic was at .506 and .595. He also shot .516 in his Finals, with several well into the .600+ TS% range.

Bird? .496 career regular season FG%, and a career .564 TS%. Then in the playoffs... .472 FG% and a .551 TS%. His career FG% in his five Finals... .455.

Only a complete idiot would claim that Magic couldn't have scores MUCH more in his career. BTW, in his very last post-season, he hung games of 38 (wiping out Hakeem and his Rockets), and then 44 against the Warriors. CLEARLY, had he been intent on SCORING, instead of making his teammates FAR better (again, KAJ, Wilkes, Worthy, Scott, Vlade,...all MUCH higher efficiencies with Magic, than without...and Nixon went into the tank after Magic)...easily 25-30 ppg.

You just got exposed...

Shooting is not measured by FG% and TS% well at all. Those are measures of overall efficiency. If you mean Magic was a more efficient scorer... sure... while scoring significantly less in volume.

In Magic's best season he scored 23.9 ppg on 52.2 %FG and 60.2 %TS while Bird in his best season scored 29.9 ppg on 52.7 %FG and 60.8 %TS. Peak Bird was scoring 6 points more and still besting Magic in efficiency.

As far as shooting alone we don't have detailed shooting splits from the era but we do have 3pt shooting and FT shooting...

3pt shooting

Bird: 37.6% (with 6 seasons over 40%)
Magic: 30.3% (with 0 seasons over 40%)

FT shooting

Bird: 88.6% (with 5 seasons over 90%)
Magic: 84.8% (with 2 seasons over 90%)

Say what?!?

[colts19]

What team does Lebron land on in the 80's? The Sixers as a PF..or...a PG? WOW! Almost an entire decade of winning rings, and splitting MVPs with teammates. Only Magic's Lakers would have had a chance...

Reading comprehension not being your strong suit. Let me explain. I clearly said lets take Lebron and his team back to the 80's. His cleveland and Miami teams. The point being that all of his accolades with those teams he couldn't replicate in the 80's because of the competition be so strong in the 80's.

[colts19]

Oh clearly. Magic IMMEDIATELY took over in his post-seasons. And he would be great in his entire post-season career. Bird...not so much.

The Bird-lovers can argue his edges in the regular season MVP balloting, but AGE-FOR-AGE, Magic's peak was equally as impressive, and again, better in the post-season, as well. Then, extend this to prime-for-prime, and Magic begins to pull away. Career-for-career? It is decisively Magic...especially with his overwhelming edge in post-season play.

How about Bird from '84 thru '86 vs. Magic from '87 to 89? Then Bird from '82 thru '88, and Magic from '85 thru '91? And of course...Bird from '80 thru '91 and Magic from '80 thru '91?
Magic was great, I have him right there with Bird. Like I've said before, if Bird went to a team with the league MVP and top 3 player ever, he would have easily won 6 or 7 titles.

[LAZERUSS]

You just got exposed...

Shooting is not measured by FG% and TS% well at all. Those are measures of overall efficiency. If you mean Magic was a more efficient scorer... sure... while scoring significantly less in volume.

In Magic's best season he scored 23.9 ppg on 52.2 %FG and 60.2 %TS while Bird in his best season scored 29.9 ppg on 52.7 %FG and 60.8 %TS. Peak Bird was scoring 6 points more and still besting Magic in efficiency.

As far as shooting alone we don't have detailed shooting splits from the era but we do have 3pt shooting and FT shooting...

3pt shooting

Bird: 37.6% (with 6 seasons over 40%)
Magic: 30.3% (with 0 seasons over 40%)

FT shooting

Bird: 88.6% (with 5 seasons over 90%)
Magic: 84.8% (with 2 seasons over 90%)

Say what?!?

Hmmm...those seasons would have been Bird's 87-88 season, and Magic's 86-87 season...

As usual, the Bird-lovers conveniently forget about what again? Oh, the POST-SEASON.

Bird's 87-88 post-season...

24.5 ppg, .450 FG%, and a .538 TS%.

But then it gets even more interesting. In the ECF's against the Pistons... 19.8 ppg on a .351 FG%.

Magic faces that same Piston team... 21.1 ppg on a .550 FG%.



Magic's 86-87 post-season...

21.8 ppg, .539 FG%, and a ...get this... .607 TS%.

BUT, then it gets even better...in Magic's 86-87 Finals...he goes up against Bird. Outscores him, 26.0 ppg to 24.2 ppg, and outshoots him from the field, .541 to .449.

Yep...Bird was better shooter and scorer alright...

[LAZERUSS]

Magic was great, I have him right there with Bird. Like I've said before, if Bird went to a team with the league MVP and top 3 player ever, he would have easily won 6 or 7 titles.

Ok, two can play that "what if" game...

Magic goes to Boston...and his fellow Celtic players...ALL improve dramatically...and year-after-year, too. Oh, and since Magic is being asked to score...probably an immediate 25-30 ppg. BTW, we saw what Magic could do withOUT that MVP Kareem in the Finals, right? Led his team to a rout, on the road no less, in the title-clinching game, and with a 42-15-7, 14-23, 14-14 game. Two years later, and with McAdoo equaling KAJ's output in the Finals...guess who again won the FMVP? And more of the same their entire ten years in the league.

BTW, how about the Kareem that Magic inherited in his rookie season? Career in a state of decline, and coming off of a lack-lustre '79 season, in which he averaged 23.8 ppg on .577 shooting, and then in his post-season...a blowout loss in the second round, and with a 28.5 ppg on .579 shooting. In fact, he had grown accustomed to losing, and didn't even care anymore. With Magic... he immediately improves to a regular season of 24.8 ppg on a career high .604 FG%, and then in the playoffs, he REALLY improves...goes to a 31.9 ppg on a .572 FG% (one of the greatest post-seasons of his career...due mostly because of MAGIC.) Of course, when he misses the most important game of his career...well, Magic picks up the slack with that famous (not "infamous as a Magic-hater was quoted earlier)... 42-15-7 game, and in which even those numbers pale in comparison as to what Magic really did in that game, which was set the tempo, dominate the glass, lead the break, and score at will...just completely demoralizing what had been a hopeful Sixer team. In fact, the Sixers wished that Kareem had played in that game.

And we already know what a Magic did with a washed up Kareem. Three Finals, and two rings...one of them DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play (and even worse game seven.) Not only that, but in the other Finals that they lost...Magic missed 2 1/2 games...and KAJ? He quietly leads his team down the toilet in a sweeping loss. Oh, and then after Kareem...records of 62-17 and 57-22, and yet another trip to the Finals. Looks like KAJ wasn't really all that important after all, was he?

Oh, and then what happened to that Laker team after Magic? 43-39 and then an even worse 39-43.

Continuing...with Bird in tow, the Lakers pass on Worthy. He winds up in Boston. By the mid-80's the Celtics, with McHale, all-NBA center Parish (scoring 23 ppg on a .600 FG%), Dennis Johnson, Magic...and now Worthy, have now won six titles in a row, and in by 85-86 they are winning 75 games and going undefeated in the playoffs. Magic continues to shine, and retires with 10 rings.

Meanwhile Bird and KAJ? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Kareem would be sulking after Bird starts his shot-jacking, and probably retires after 1980 (when Magic wins ROY and MVP.) If they continue to play together, Bird shot-jacks his Lakers right out of the playoffs in his first three seasons. As already noted, LA passes on Worthy, and continue to fill-in the PF slot with retreads. There is a growing dissension in the locker room. KAJ continues to sulk, and his decline is rapid, but it gets even worse. Bird is now constantly nursing injuries, and in fact, he is flat-out blowing chunks in the post-season. The LA slide continues. By the mid-80's they are no better than a .500 team in decay. Desperate, they draft Len Bias. Uh oh...by the late 80's, and fortunately for his career, Kareem is shipped off with half the roster and future picks for all-star center Parish. Kareem coat-tails his way to a couple of rings, and retires with three. Bird? His injury-racked career is now over, and he doesn't even make the HOF a few years later.

Give Magic FOUR other HOFers his entire career, and 9-10 rings easy.

[LeBird]

Let me help "convince" you even more

this from Colts18...

And here is his playoff shooting...

This is the same Colts18 that gets embarrassed on RealGm. Much like you are here.

Hmm, wait a minute...

All this nonsense aside. You really have a sick existence. Multiple aliases; long biased posts full of crap, repeated ad nauseam ...year after year... in copy paste fashion. If you think you actually convert anyone with your posting you're just fooling yourself.

I actually used to think much highly of Wilt before you ever posted. Now, probably one of the lowest in my GOAT candidates.

[LAZERUSS]

This is the same Colts18 that gets embarrassed on RealGm. Much like you are here.

Hmm, wait a minute...

All this nonsense aside. You really have a sick existence. Multiple aliases; long biased posts full of crap, repeated ad nauseam ...year after year... in copy paste fashion. If you think you actually convert anyone with your posting you're just fooling yourself.

I actually used to think much highly of Wilt before you ever posted. Now, probably one of the lowest in my GOAT candidates.

Just here to educate...not "convert."

Magic's career, >>> Bird's.

Sorry, but even the idiotic Celtic homer Bill Simmons agrees with me...which is scarry.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This is the same Colts18 that gets embarrassed on RealGm. Much like you are here.

Hmm, wait a minute...

All this nonsense aside. You really have a sick existence. Multiple aliases; long biased posts full of crap, repeated ad nauseam ...year after year... in copy paste fashion. If you think you actually convert anyone with your posting you're just fooling yourself.

I actually used to think much highly of Wilt before you ever posted. Now, probably one of the lowest in my GOAT candidates.

Thread should've ended here...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This is the same Colts18 that gets embarrassed on RealGm. Much like you are here.

Hmm, wait a minute...

All this nonsense aside. You really have a sick existence. Multiple aliases; long biased posts full of crap, repeated ad nauseam ...year after year... in copy paste fashion. If you think you actually convert anyone with your posting you're just fooling yourself.

I actually used to think much highly of Wilt before you ever posted. Now, probably one of the lowest in my GOAT candidates.

Damn :oldlol:

Aside from Jlauber, who he admitted to being, Lazzerus is an alt of? He's biased but I think you guys are a little too hard on him.

[Pointguard]

You just got exposed...

Shooting is not measured by FG% and TS% well at all. Those are measures of overall efficiency. If you mean Magic was a more efficient scorer... sure... while scoring significantly less in volume. In the playoffs they were they were very close as scorers and volume not that much of a difference:

In the playoffs there was a four ppg difference (23 to 19ppg). Bird took six more shots per game (19fga) to make two more baskets per game (7 to 9FG). Magic easily could get two more baskets per game if you watched those games but he rewarded players on fast breaks just to keep them hustling. And this is with Magic rarely making himself above the third option. If Magic had the regular amount of assist per game (say 6 or 7 per game) and took 18 shoots per game... . I don't get what the argument would be for him not being a 27ppg type of scorer even in the regular season. He would get fouled more and be more central as a scorer. I'm not saying he's going to score like Bird, but he is scoring more than 25ppg for sure.


In Magic's best season he scored 23.9 ppg on 52.2 %FG and 60.2 %TS while Bird in his best season scored 29.9 ppg on 52.7 %FG and 60.8 %TS. Peak Bird was scoring 6 points more and still besting Magic in efficiency.

As far as shooting alone we don't have detailed shooting splits from the era but we do have 3pt shooting and FT shooting...

3pt shooting

Bird: 37.6% (with 6 seasons over 40%)
Magic: 30.3% (with 0 seasons over 40%)

FT shooting

Bird: 88.6% (with 5 seasons over 90%)
Magic: 84.8% (with 2 seasons over 90%)

Say what?!?
The biggest thing missing here is that Magic always gave up his own dunks in favor of getting his teammates going. His lead in TS% which was significant, and includes your two items above, would have been even greater.

[LAZERUSS]

Damn :oldlol:

Aside from Jlauber, who he admitted to being, Lazzerus is an alt of? He's biased but I think you guys are a little too hard on him.

ZERO alts, and never posted at realGM, which is a cast of clowns forum.

[Lebron23]

Magic should have been the finals MVP back in 1988

http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2011/10/magic-johnson-james-worthy.jpg

21 ppg on 55 FG%, 13.0 apg, 5.0 rpg, , 0.14 bpg, 2.0 spg

James Worthy Stats

22 ppg pn 49.2 FG%, 7.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, 0.6 bpg, 0.71 spg

[Pushxx]

It's nice that Magic vs. Bird is one of the most genuine historical NBA debates you can have these days.

Personally, I take Bird over Magic, especially in 2014 with better training, medicine, etc.

This may be a debate for another thread, but I see Bird and Jordan as the two most successful players under today's rules. I won't get into why, but maybe we should make a thread for it. Who of the top players of all time would be see the biggest performance increase due to rules, style, and culture of today's NBA?

Today's NBA greatly favors jump shooters, so there's that...anyway.

[JohnnySic]

I know... 29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, and a career high .527 FG%. EASILY the greatest regular season of his career. He even had one of his few good post-season series against the Hawks, and perhaps his greatest game seven. THEN...the roof caved in...and a horrid ECF's against the Pistons. The same Piston team that Magic would dominate in the Finals.

Reminds me of McHale's broken foot. CAREER best season, and second greatest post-season of his career.
Exposed. Spoken like someone who wasn't there. :facepalm

Bird's peak was '84-'87; he wasn't the same in '88. Yes, his stats were monstrous, but anyone who watched him saw that he had clearly regressed.

Stop talking about stuff before your time. Stick to LeBron/Durant.

[julizaver]

Slightly ahead of Bird ...

Both players were one of the best offensive players ever. Both had uncanny court vision and very high basketball IQ. Both extremly versatile and skillful. Both not the most high jumping fastest athletes in basketball and both not the best defenders in their respective teams. To put in perspective:

Jordan > Magic > Bird ...> Nowitzki (because people used to compare him a lot with Bird). I was thinking to put Lebron in the comparision BUT will saved it for some of the (countless) Lebron's, Bryant's topics.

Jordan I put ahead of Magic as a player/individual, but if I am a coach to start a team with, I'll have some thinking before choosing.