LeBron's 2012 Playoff Run v.s. Kobe's 2009 Playoff Run

[SamuraiSWISH]

Who was the better player? Who had the better run?

30 ppg, 5 rpg, 6 apg

Best Performance: Finals Game 1 v.s. Orlando
40 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks

v.s.

30 ppg, 10 rpg, 6 apg

Best Performance: ECF Game 6 @ Boston
45 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists

[JT123]

Why did you leave out the field goal percentages OP? :coleman:
To answer the question, Lebron, and it's not even remotely close. Kobe's Lakers were completely healthy in 2009, while Lebron had to carry the Heat without Bosh for nearly half the 2012 playoff run. Then we have to consider the Heat were heavy underdogs entering the 2012 Finals, while the Lakers were widely expected to sweep Orlando. #context

[LBJ 23]

That game 6 against Boston was pretty good for a player who is considered to be mentally weak and a choker. So much at stake and yet he delivered.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That game 6 against Boston was pretty good for a player who is considered to be mentally weak and a choker. So much at stake and yet he delivered.
IMO it's one of the best performances I've ever witnessed. He single handedly destroyed that team with out a great deal of help that game from his teammates. He also took his foot off the pedal in the 4th because the lead ballooned so large.

[rlsmooth775]

Who was the better player? Who had the better run?

30 ppg, 5 rpg, 6 apg

Best Performance: Finals Game 1 v.s. Orlando
40 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks

v.s.

30 ppg, 10 rpg, 6 apg

Best Performance: ECF Game 6 @ Boston
45 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists

Lebron was also much better defense

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron, he took his game to another level during that playoff run. His Game 4 against Indy and Game 6 against Boston are two of the greatest playoff performances of all time, in must win games to boot.

[K Xerxes]

I remember watching that game 6 Boston. Gave me goosebumps. I'd never seen that look and demeanor from him before. And he took that focus and dropped 30 in the first half to seal the game. Had 40 by 3 quarters, and wasn't really needed in the 4th. A legacy saving game if I ever saw one. I think Riley would have blown it up if they lost.

I don't think you can really question LeBron's 'mental strength' after that run. Sure he may not be close to Jordan in that category, but it takes a lot of guts to come out of the abyss from 2011 and the one he almost dug in Boston. Alas the rest his history.

[JohnFreeman]

LeBron.

[G0ATbe]

It's not even comparable individually, Kobe easily.

Lets instead compare supporting casts.

Prime Wade,Bosh, Joey Crawford vs Pau Gasoft.

[TheMarkMadsen]

LeBron, he took his game to another level during that playoff run. His Game 4 against Indy and Game 6 against Boston are two of the greatest playoff performances of all time, in must win games to boot.

I hope this is a joke.

You dont get bonus points for digging yourself into elminiation sotuations against way less talented teams just to finally put it together and win games that shouldn't of even of been an issue.o

[Mr. Jabbar]

gimme the one who had his playoff run in the west and didn't have two other superstars.

next.

[lilteapot]

gimme the one who had his playoff run in the west and didn't have two other superstars.

next.
typical response made by someone who doesnt watch the games

[JohnFreeman]

Bosh missed most of the Pacer series

[eliteballer]

lol @ us comparing a 30 year old Kobe with a bad knee playing better competition to a 27 year old Lebron on a super team in a lockout shortened season.

[Crose]

2012 boston series is so overated

he only had to have a historic game because they lost 3 game in a row which they should have won

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

they had their back againt the wall because lebron did not come through in 3 games ina row. that series should not have went 7

[EnoughSaid]

Bosh was out injured, Wade wasn't playing to par. LeBron went HAM for a large chunk of that Conference Finals series vs. Boston and then the Finals.

He was under extreme scrutiny and pressure, yet he delivered and that game 6 performance will go down as one of 5 greatest in Playoff history.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobes 09 WCF > Lebrons 2012 ECF

Played a better all around game, more points, more assist. Played a better team, multiple 40 point games, set the tempo from the get go and most importantly didnt allow his team to lose 3 straight games against an inferior opponenet to be in a position to be eliminated in 6 games..

[eliteballer]

lol @ us comparing a 30 year old Kobe with a bad knee playing better competition to a 27 year old Lebron on a super team in a lockout shortened season.

Not to mention we have to hype up LeBron's series against an ancient Celtics team.

[JohnFreeman]

Anyone have the defensive statistics of the teams they versed?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bosh was out injured, Wade wasn't playing to par. LeBron went HAM for a large chunk of that Conference Finals series vs. Boston and then the Finals.

He was under extreme scrutiny and pressure, yet he delivered and that game 6 performance will go down as one of 5 greatest in Playoff history.

Wade wasn't playing to par?

Against the Pacers: 26/6/3

ECF: 21/6/5

Finals: 23/6/5

How in the world is that considered "sub par"

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Lebron's 2012 playoffs > any of kobe's. 2001 kobe was pretty special though.

[JT123]

Not to mention we have to hype up LeBron's series against an ancient Celtics team.
You forgot to switch accounts buddy. :oldlol:

[longhornfan1234]

'12 LeBron.

[EnoughSaid]

Wade was playing to par?

Against the Pacers: 26/6/3

ECF: 21/6/5

Finals: 23/6/5

How in the world is that considered "sub par"

The first 2 games against Indy Wade was poor. Shot a poor percentage in the ECF too. But he wasn't bad for the other series.

[JohnFreeman]

You forgot to switch accounts buddy. :oldlol:
:D

[Magic 32]

Here are some statlines from Kobe following losses in the 09 playoffs...

G4 vs Jazz: 38 points, 6 rebounds, 2 steals (16-24 FG)
G2 vs Rockets: 40 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists (16-27 FG)
G5 vs Rockets: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists (11-19 FG)
G3 vs Nuggets: 41 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists (12-24 FG)
G4 vs Magic: 32 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds (11-31 FG)

5-0

[JT123]

The first 2 games against Indy Wade was poor. Shot a poor percentage in the ECF too. But he wasn't bad for the other series.
Wade was actually shit for the first 3 games of that series. Fool had 5 points in game 3. :facepalm He was also very up and down in that Boston series. No real consistency from him despite his decent box score numbers.

[Doranku]

Anyone have the defensive statistics of the teams they versed?
Off the top of my head, all four teams Kobe played in '09 were top 10 defensively (1, 4, 8, and 10 iirc).

[TheMarkMadsen]

The first 2 games against Indy Wade was poor. Shot a poor percentage in the ECF too. But he wasn't bad for the other series.

There is nothing poor about 21.4 points on 44.4%

Stop trying to downplay wade, he was great during these playoffs, and was tremendous in the finals also. Stop acting like Lebron "carried the team" when he had an all nba shooting guard beside him putting up 23/5/4/2/1 on 46% throughout the playoffs

[K Xerxes]

Kobe fans and their logical gymnastics. :oldlol:

http://img.pandawhale.com/86751-gymnastics-uneven-bars-fail-gi-qlyA.gif

[J Shuttlesworth]

Just FYI, The Heat faced 4 top 10 defensive teams in the playoffs that year. Celtics were #1, Knicks were #5, Pacers #9, and OKC #10 in DRTG

Lakers as well. #1, #4, #8, and #9 defense (Magic, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz)

Pretty impressive numbers these guys put off.

As far as wins, Lakers faced:
Magic (59)
Rockets (53)
Nuggets (54)
Jazz (48)

Heat faced (adjusted for lockout):
Thunder (58)
Celtics (48)
Pacers (52)
Knicks (44)

Both are close. Lakers had slightly more difficult competition, but Heat were playing w/o Bosh. Both teams faced great defenses.
LeBron shot 50%, 57.6% TS
Kobe shot 45.7%, 56.4% TS

I'll take LeBron since both showed similar dominance, but LeBron was a bit better statistically because of his rebounding, but lets not act like it's completely skewed one way or the other. Both players were incredibly close

[JohnFreeman]

Just FYI, The Heat faced 4 top 10 defensive teams in the playoffs that year. Celtics were #1, Knicks were #5, Pacers #9, and OKC #10 in DRTG

Lakers as well. #1, #4, #8, and #9 defense (Magic, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz)

Pretty impressive numbers these guys put off.

As far as wins, Lakers faced:
Magic (59)
Rockets (53)
Nuggets (54)
Jazz (48)

Heat faced (adjusted for lockout):
Thunder (58)
Celtics (48)
Pacers (52)
Knicks (44)

Both are close. Lakers had slightly more difficult competition, but Heat were playing w/o Bosh. Both teams faced great defenses.
LeBron shot 50%, 57.6% TS
Kobe shot 45.7%, 56.4% TS

I'll take LeBron since both showed similar dominance, but LeBron was a bit better statistically because of his rebounding, but lets not act like it's completely skewed one way or the other. Both players were incredibly close
LeBron wins

[Doranku]

Just FYI, The Heat faced 4 top 10 defensive teams in the playoffs that year. Celtics were #1, Knicks were #5, Pacers #9, and OKC #10 in DRTG

Lakers as well. #1, #4, #8, and #9 defense (Magic, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz)

Pretty impressive numbers these guys put off.

As far as wins, Lakers faced:
Magic (59)
Rockets (53)
Nuggets (54)
Jazz (48)

Heat faced (adjusted for lockout):
Thunder (58)
Celtics (48)
Pacers (52)
Knicks (44)

Both are close. Lakers had slightly more difficult competition, but Heat were playing w/o Bosh. Both teams faced great defenses.
LeBron shot 50%, 57.6% TS
Kobe shot 45.7%, 56.4% TS

I'll take LeBron since both showed similar dominance, but LeBron was a bit better statistically because of his rebounding, but lets not act like it's completely skewed one way or the other. Both players were incredibly close

That's how I feel as well. It's close, but you have to go with Lebron. I had no idea he faced four top 10 defensive teams as well in '12. Very impressive.

[VengefulAngel]

Lebron's defense in 2012 was elite also. A lot of people neglect how good Dwyane Wade is though, he was there whenever Lebron needed him.

[PsychoBe]

Here are some statlines from Kobe following losses in the 09 playoffs...

G4 vs Jazz: 38 points, 6 rebounds, 2 steals (16-24 FG)
G2 vs Rockets: 40 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists (16-27 FG)
G5 vs Rockets: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists (11-19 FG)
G3 vs Nuggets: 41 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists (12-24 FG)
G4 vs Magic: 32 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds (11-31 FG)

5-0

ether

[Magic 32]

http://img.pandawhale.com/86751-gymnastics-uneven-bars-fail-gi-qlyA.gif

Getting joy from somebody's failure and pain?

No wonder you're a Lebron fan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

2012 was a lockout year, adjusted wins mean nothing as plenty of teams can fall apart or begin to excelt towards the latter half of the season.

The first half of the 2012 season featured some awful basketball from players/ teams that obviously had expected the lockout to last the entire year.

[ArbitraryWater]

http://ceoseats.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/death-stare.gif

[eliteballer]

lol @ us comparing a 30 year old Kobe with a bad knee playing better competition to a 27 year old Lebron on a super team in a lockout shortened season.

Waiting..

and again, why we hyping up LeBron's series against an ancient Celtics team?

[20Four]

You forgot to switch accounts buddy. :oldlol:
Same with you Jameer! Keep talking this account will be PERM banned too WHY THE FCK WE KEEP LETTING JAMEER IN HERE...FVCKING LONELY GARBAGE CAN HO

[J Shuttlesworth]

Waiting..

and again, why we hyping up LeBron's series against an ancient Celtics team?
uhh 33.6/11/4 on 52.7% shooting against #1 defense in the league... how about that?

[JohnFreeman]

Waiting..

and again, why we hyping up LeBron's series against an ancient Celtics team?
Def Rtg: 98.2 (1st of 30)

[Magic 32]

Waiting..

and again, why we hyping up LeBron's series against an ancient Celtics team?

I never understood this :confusedshrug:

The Heat destroyed them in 2011. Should never have been down 2-3 in the first place.

[eliteballer]

That defensive rating is based in part on playing a joke EC.


lol @ us comparing a 30 year old Kobe with a bad knee playing better competition to a 27 year old Lebron on a super team in a lockout shortened season.

Waiting..

[Crose]

A lot of people neglect how good Dwyane Wade is though, he was there whenever Lebron needed him.
like in the clutch

against boston in lebron's hyped series

dwade in 4th and ot - 22/39 fg (56% from field). assisted on 23% of shots
lebron in 4th and ot - 16/38 fg (42% from field ). assisted on 38% of shots

lebron 2012 is overrated and dwade is underrated. lebron had to have historic game 6 because he didnt come through before

[LBJ 23]

LeBron shot 50%, 57.6% TS
Kobe shot 45.7%, 56.4% TS



Didn't know Lebron managed to shoot 50% for the whole run. I remember he couldn't hit a jumpshot in the Finals to save his life.

[Crose]

I never understood this :confusedshrug:

The Heat destroyed them in 2011. Should never have been down 2-3 in the first place.
i posted about this in first page. they heat down 2-3 because lebron did not come through

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

[eliteballer]

Please don't bring up the Knicks, half the roster was injured for the playoffs.



lol @ us comparing a 30 year old Kobe with a bad knee playing better competition to a 27 year old Lebron on a super team in a lockout shortened season.

Waiting..

[K Xerxes]

Getting joy from somebody's failure and pain?

No wonder you're a Lebron fan.

I'm only a LeBron fan when we discuss him in comparison to the vastly overrated Chuckbe. Other than that, I'm a Jordan (and Hakeem) fan.

[ArbitraryWater]

I never understood this :confusedshrug:

The Heat destroyed them in 2011. Should never have been down 2-3 in the first place.

You guys....

He beats them 4-1 ("he should have done that".. in a series they were underdogs in)......

He has an epic series in which he couldn't have played any better ("only won 4-3, nothing special")....

special stupidity.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I remember watching that game 6 Boston. Gave me goosebumps. I'd never seen that look and demeanor from him before. And he took that focus and dropped 30 in the first half to seal the game. Had 40 by 3 quarters, and wasn't really needed in the 4th. A legacy saving game if I ever saw one. I think Riley would have blown it up if they lost.
Or after ... he had enough of the Celtics verbal bullying

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5a3vbssl21qbcs46o1_500.gif

[Crose]

You guys....

He beats them 4-1 ("he should have done that".. in a series they were underdogs in)......

He has an epic series in which he couldn't have played any better ("only won 4-3, nothing special")....

special stupidity.
how could he not played better they were down 2-3 because he did not perform in the clutch

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

dwade in 4th and ot - 22/39 fg (56% from field). assisted on 23% of shots
lebron in 4th and ot - 16/38 fg (42% from field ). assisted on 38% of shots

lebron 2012 celtics series is most overrated series. he could have played better they only had their back against the wall because lebron did not close games

[eliteballer]

You guys....

He beats them 4-1 ("he should have done that".. in a series they were underdogs in)......

He has an epic series in which he couldn't have played any better ("only won 4-3, nothing special")....

special stupidity.

A guy in his prime playing on a super team with homecourt struggling against an ancient team...don't make me laugh.

[Magic 32]

You guys....

He beats them 4-1 ("he should have done that".. in a series they were underdogs in)......


http://30sandbeyond.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/barkley-smh.gif

[eliteballer]

lol @ us comparing a 30 year old Kobe with a bad knee playing better competition to a 27 year old Lebron on a super team in a lockout shortened season.

anyone:oldlol:

[nba_55]

Please don't bring up the Knicks, half the roster was injured for the playoffs.




Waiting..

What about the Rockets who were missing Yao, T-Mac and Mutumbo? Chuck Hayes, 6 ft 6, was their starting center.

[nba_55]

Just FYI, The Heat faced 4 top 10 defensive teams in the playoffs that year. Celtics were #1, Knicks were #5, Pacers #9, and OKC #10 in DRTG

Lakers as well. #1, #4, #8, and #9 defense (Magic, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz)

Pretty impressive numbers these guys put off.

As far as wins, Lakers faced:
Magic (59)
Rockets (53)
Nuggets (54)
Jazz (48)

Heat faced (adjusted for lockout):
Thunder (58)
Celtics (48)
Pacers (52)
Knicks (44)

Both are close. Lakers had slightly more difficult competition, but Heat were playing w/o Bosh. Both teams faced great defenses.
LeBron shot 50%, 57.6% TS
Kobe shot 45.7%, 56.4% TS

I'll take LeBron since both showed similar dominance, but LeBron was a bit better statistically because of his rebounding, but lets not act like it's completely skewed one way or the other. Both players were incredibly close

Heat had more difficult competition. Rockets were missing Yao, T-Mac and Mutumbo, they had no center bigs to matchup against Gasol/Odom/Bynum. Heat was missing Bosh, that created huge match-up problems, making it very hard for them.

[nba_55]

http://30sandbeyond.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/barkley-smh.gif
Vegas odds had them as the underdogs.

[G0ATbe]

You cant be underdogs when you have 60% of the east all star starting lineup on one team:facepalm . After watching the celtics series I think everyone knew Stern/Crawford would have their fingerprints all over the finals series. Thunder were favourites because everyone wanted them to overcome the refs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This is a very fair comparison, regardless of a 3 year age difference. If the Lakers fans who have a problem with it ... we could redo this age for age of Kobe's 2006 playoff run with LeBron's 2012 playoff run?

[eliteballer]

This is a very fair comparison, regardless of a 3 year age difference. If the Lakers fans who have a problem with it ... we could redo this age for age of Kobe's 2006 playoff run with LeBron's 2012 playoff run?

The hell are you babbling about, we're not comparing playing with Smush and Kwame to Wade and Bosh:roll:

Carrying those scrubs for 82 games on a bad knee vs a superteam in a lockout shortened season.

[Magic 32]

we could redo this age for age of Kobe's 2006 playoff run with LeBron's 2012 playoff run?

Just one problem....well two.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/216/139/73753747_crop_650x440.jpg

[nba_55]

Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team, Wade 2006 would be a better comparaison.

[ArbitraryWater]

Vegas and Sports Illustrated had both Celtics + Bulls as favorites over Heat.

Then LeBron did this...

4th quarters

ECSF vs Celtics

Game 4: Down 69-73, 4 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-8 including a huge game tying 3 with 2 minutes left as they get it into Overtime and win.

Game 5: Down Down 71-73, 2 Point Game.

LeBron scores 13 Points on 5-7 to win the Game & Series.
Game was tied 87-87 with 2.10 left when LeBron went off, scoring the game's last 10 Points on 4-4 to finish off the Series by winning 97-87.


ECF vs Bulls

Game 2: Up 71-65 going into the 4th.

Up 76-73, 3 point game with 4.30 remaining: LeBron closes the game by scoring 9 Points on 4-6. (9 4Q Points)

Game 3: Up 68-65, 1 Possession Game.

LeBron scores 10 Points on 3-5 to win 96-85.

Game 4: Down 63-68, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 7 Points on 2-6 and the Game goes into Overtime at 85 a piece. Lebron goes on to score 6 Points on 2-3.

Game 5: Down 57-62, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-6.

The Heat were down 65-77, 12 Points, with 3.10 remaining.

From that point on, they made a 18-3 Run to close it out and Win 83-80.

Both LeBron and Wade scored 8 Points each, and missed 0 Shots doing so (+ Bosh FT's).

LeBron held Rose to 1-10 with 2 TO's defensively, including blocking his game tying buzzer beater.

Via ESPN Stats & Info: "Derrick Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by LeBron James."

The lowest of any player against Rose in his career.

[JT123]

You cant be underdogs when you have 60% of the east all star starting lineup on one team:facepalm . After watching the celtics series I think everyone knew Stern/Crawford would have their fingerprints all over the finals series. Thunder were favourites because everyone wanted them to overcome the refs.
Kobe has never won a ring as the underdog. He's a great player, but just isn't built to overcome adversity the way Lebron did in 2012.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The hell are you babbling about, we're not comparing playing with Smush and Kwame to Wade and Bosh:roll:
So, we can't make any championship run comparisons between the two unless the context is exactly the same? Including age? According to Kobe fans isn't a minutes logged more important than age anyway?

Which is it with you guys? ... pick a stance.

Kobe's 1st successful championship run sans Shaq v.s. LeBron's 1st successful championship run, period. Both were team leaders, and best player on their squads. This comparison is absolutely valid.

So damn salty. Just make a case for either or and move on.

[Crose]

Vegas and Sports Illustrated had both Celtics + Bulls as favorites over Heat.

Then LeBron did this...

4th quarters

ECSF vs Celtics

Game 4: Down 69-73, 4 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-8 including a huge game tying 3 with 2 minutes left as they get it into Overtime and win.

Game 5: Down Down 71-73, 2 Point Game.

LeBron scores 13 Points on 5-7 to win the Game & Series.
Game was tied 87-87 with 2.10 left when LeBron went off, scoring the game's last 10 Points on 4-4 to finish off the Series by winning 97-87.


ECF vs Bulls

Game 2: Up 71-65 going into the 4th.

Up 76-73, 3 point game with 4.30 remaining: LeBron closes the game by scoring 9 Points on 4-6. (9 4Q Points)

Game 3: Up 68-65, 1 Possession Game.

LeBron scores 10 Points on 3-5 to win 96-85.

Game 4: Down 63-68, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 7 Points on 2-6 and the Game goes into Overtime at 85 a piece. Lebron goes on to score 6 Points on 2-3.

Game 5: Down 57-62, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-6.

The Heat were down 65-77, 12 Points, with 3.10 remaining.

From that point on, they made a 18-3 Run to close it out and Win 83-80.

Both LeBron and Wade scored 8 Points each, and missed 0 Shots doing so (+ Bosh FT's).

LeBron held Rose to 1-10 with 2 TO's defensively, including blocking his game tying buzzer beater.

Via ESPN Stats & Info: "Derrick Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by LeBron James."

The lowest of any player against Rose in his career.
we are talking about 2012 run why are you talking about 2011

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

dwade in 4th and ot - 22/39 fg (56% from field). assisted on 23% of shots
lebron in 4th and ot - 16/38 fg (42% from field ). assisted on 38% of shots

this is why heat were down 2-3 with back against the wall

[J Shuttlesworth]

The hell are you babbling about, we're not comparing playing with Smush and Kwame to Wade and Bosh:roll:

Carrying those scrubs for 82 games on a bad knee vs a superteam in a lockout shortened season.
We're talking about an individuals performance, not his teams. Wade/Bosh don't make LeBron put up 30 ppg, LeBron makes himself do that... hence why he was doing the same on the Cavaliers.

Which year would you like to compare Kobe to LeBron's 2012 run then?

[eliteballer]

Vegas and Sports Illustrated had both Celtics + Bulls as favorites over Heat.

Then LeBron did this...

ECSF vs Celtics

Game 4: Down 69-73, 4 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-8 including a huge game tying 3 with 2 minutes left as they get it into Overtime and win.

Game 5: Down Down 71-73, 2 Point Game.

LeBron scores 13 Points on 5-7 to win the Game & Series.
Game was tied 87-87 with 2.10 left when LeBron went off, scoring the game's last 10 Points on 4-4 to finish off the Series by winning 97-87.


ECF vs Bulls

Game 2: Up 71-65 going into the 4th.

Up 76-73, 3 point game with 4.30 remaining: LeBron closes the game by scoring 9 Points on 4-6. (9 4Q Points)

Game 3: Up 68-65, 1 Possession Game.

LeBron scores 10 Points on 3-5 to win 96-85.

Game 4: Down 63-68, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 7 Points on 2-6 and the Game goes into Overtime at 85 a piece. Lebron goes on to score 6 Points on 2-3.

Game 5: Down 57-62, 5 Point Game.

LeBron scores 11 Points on 3-6.

The Heat were down 65-77, 12 Points, with 3.10 remaining.

From that point on, they made a 18-3 Run to close it out and Win 83-80.

Both LeBron and Wade scored 8 Points each, and missed 0 Shots doing so (+ Bosh FT's).

LeBron held Rose to 1-10 with 2 TO's defensively, including blocking his game tying buzzer beater.

Via ESPN Stats & Info: "Derrick Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by LeBron James."

The lowest of any player against Rose in his career.

Stop the revisionist history...they were talking about the Heat winning over 72 games when they came together.........two years worth of gelling after that and LeBron in his prime on a super team being made some saint against a Celtic's team that was absolutely ANCIENT and breaking down.

What were his numbers against the C's when they were in their prime in 2008?

[Magic 32]

Kobe has never won a ring as the underdog. He's a great player, but just isn't built to overcome adversity the way Lebron did in 2012.

He was literally one Kwame brain-fart away from winning his first ever series as an underdog.

http://nba247365.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/tt.jpg

[G0ATbe]

Kobe has never won a ring as the underdog.
Well he's the greatest player in NBA history. Whichever team he was on, whichever teammates he had, he was expected to win in his younger years. That's what comes with being a legend:applause: .

I guess you could consider Heat underdogs only because they had the greatest choker in the history of sports on the team:confusedshrug:

[J Shuttlesworth]

What were his numbers against the C's when they were in their prime in 2008?
26.7 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 7.6 apg
Kobe's 25.7, 4.7 rb, 5 apg

Also, 1 year makes a difference in prime? 2008 Kobe was prime, but not 2009?

[Kvnzhangyay]

He was literally one Kwame brain-fart away from winning his first ever series as an underdog.

http://nba247365.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/tt.jpg

But he didn't :confusedshrug:

[Magic 32]

26.7 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 7.6 apg
Kobe's 25.7, 4.7 rb, 5 apg

Also, 1 year makes a difference in prime? 2008 Kobe was prime, but not 2009?

So cute.

A Lebron fan omitting FG%

hmmmm must be really bad. :oldlol:

[Fire Colangelo]

i posted about this in first page. they heat down 2-3 because lebron did not come through

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

lol

Game 3: Heat team played like shit for the first 3 quarters, down 22 going into the 4th. LeBron had 30 points through 3 quarters while Wade was the only one to crack double digit points with 12.

Game 4: Heat were down 5 going into the 4th, LeBron 3 pointer in the 4th to send the game to OT.

Game 5: lol @ arbitrary 8 minute mark, LeBron had 9 points in the 4th quarter.

but yeah lets all blame it on lebron.

[Magic 32]

But he didn't :confusedshrug:

So useful.

[J Shuttlesworth]

So cute.

A Lebron fan omitting FG%

hmmmm mys be really bad. :oldlol:
As a Kobe stan, you don't want to play the FG%... trust me

Plus we're talking .505 TS vs. .480 TS. Not a huge difference

[Crose]

Also, 1 year makes a difference in prime? 2008 Kobe was prime, but not 2009?
:biggums: what happen to lebron this year then

just 1 year difference :confusedshrug:

actually same exact age as kobe in this thread (2009) what is your eplanation for lebron ?

[ArbitraryWater]

we are talking about 2012 run why are you talking about 2011

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

dwade in 4th and ot - 22/39 fg (56% from field). assisted on 23% of shots
lebron in 4th and ot - 16/38 fg (42% from field ). assisted on 38% of shots

this is why heat were down 2-3 with back against the wall

Actually, follow the conversation, we didn't....

Eh, nitpicking.. LeBron has clutch career playoff numbers, Kobe has horrible 4th q numbers and no one is killing him for it.

[eliteballer]

26.7 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 7.6 apg
Kobe's 25.7, 4.7 rb, 5 apg

Also, 1 year makes a difference in prime? 2008 Kobe was prime, but not 2009?

Kobe's knee really starting giving him issues in 2009, you can see the difference in bounce and athleticism.

[eliteballer]

:biggums: what happen to lebron this year then

just 1 year difference :confusedshrug:

actually same exact age as kobe in this thread (2009) what is your eplanation for lebron ?


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Crose]

lol

Game 3: Heat team played like shit for the first 3 quarters, down 22 going into the 4th. LeBron had 30 points through 3 quarters while Wade was the only one to crack double digit points with 12.

Game 4: Heat were down 5 going into the 4th, LeBron 3 pointer in the 4th to send the game to OT.

Game 5: lol @ arbitrary 8 minute mark, LeBron had 9 points in the 4th quarter.

but yeah lets all blame it on lebron.
how does scoring 0 in final 8 minutes not count

say someone score 10 point in first 2 min of 4th quarter then disappear 10 min straight and his team lose, that is bad

lebron did not close games that is why they were down 2-3

[J Shuttlesworth]

:biggums: what happen to lebron this year then

just 1 year difference :confusedshrug:

actually same exact age as kobe in this thread (2009) what is your eplanation for lebron ?
Why not use minutes instead of age? More accurate since most players decline around the same total career minutes

But LeBron is still putting up like 25/7.7/5 on 49% shooting, which is still better numbers than prime Kobe... especially considering he's having knee/back issues right now. Plus I think LeBron will get it together. We can't really judge this early... haven't even hit the all star break yet.

[Crose]

Actually, follow the conversation, we didn't....

Eh, nitpicking.. LeBron has clutch career playoff numbers, Kobe has horrible 4th q numbers and no one is killing him for it.
no not nitpicking you have no expanation

only reason heat had back against the wall and lebron had to have huge game 6 because lebron did not close 3 games in row they lost.

wade was all star and a better clutch player than lebron but he get killed like hes a role player

[Magic 32]

As a Kobe stan, you don't want to play the FG%... trust me

Plus we're talking .505 TS vs. .480 TS. Not a huge difference

No trust me I will. We are talking about 35% from the floor.

The first four games are almost beyond belief.

http://s9.postimg.org/dlfiefcpr/werter.png

How his teammates were able to square this up at 2-2, I will never know.

[Crose]

Why not use minutes instead of age? More accurate since most players decline around the same total career minutes

But LeBron is still putting up like 25/7.7/5 on 49% shooting, which is still better numbers than prime Kobe... especially considering he's having knee/back issues right now. Plus I think LeBron will get it together. We can't really judge this early... haven't even hit the all star break yet.
when will you lebron fans realize numbers dont mean everything especialy with lebron who is notorious for dominating ball and picking up stats

anyone who watch lebron this year knows he is not playing well at all - crap defense, hogs ball and does not follow coaches play, he is only trying to fill stats but he is not a top player

[J Shuttlesworth]

No, we are talking about 35% from the floor.

The first four games are almost beyond belief.

http://s9.postimg.org/dlfiefcpr/werter.png

How his teammates were able to square this up at 2-2 I will never know.
True shooting is a better stat then FG%, and their TS wasn't that far off from each other, and considering both lost against the Celtics, and kobe's FG% also dropped off signifcantly, i'm not sure why you want to make the comparison. LeBron still had better assists/rebounding numbers which compensate for a .2 % TS difference

And really... FG% favors LeBron over his entire career opposed to Kobe. I'm not sure why you want to play the FG% now, but any other time we talk about it, you'll call it an "overrated stat"

[LBJ 23]

:biggums: what happen to lebron this year then

just 1 year difference :confusedshrug:

actually same exact age as kobe in this thread (2009) what is your eplanation for lebron ?

Going hard and being a starter from the 1st NBA game as a 18 year old till now, being one of the most durable players in the NBA history, missing negligible amount of games in his career till now, always responding when being called for playing in the Olympics and taking all this into account logging a huge amount of minutes and wear and tear versus a player who was a bench warmer first years in the league and who missed many more games and minutes during his career for various reasons.

Not a very good comparison.

[J Shuttlesworth]

when will you lebron fans realize numbers dont mean everything especialy with lebron who is notorious for dominating ball and picking up stats

anyone who watch lebron this year knows he is not playing well at all - crap defense, hogs ball and does not follow coaches play, he is only trying to fill stats but he is not a top player
I agree he's not playing well compared to his normal self, but he's still one of the top players in the league. Nobody can deny that.

Also, Kobe's usage in 08 in his prime was 31.4% which is near the same as LeBron this year... 30.7%

[Magic 32]

And really... FG% favors LeBron over his entire career opposed to Kobe. I'm not sure why you want to play the FG% now, but any other time we talk about it, you'll call it an "overrated stat"

35% is not overrated. It's amazing at age 24.

2-18 FG with 10 turnovers and missing the game tying layup, followed by 6-24 FG with 7 turnovers.

Worst back to back in history.

Destructively bad.

Poor Zydrunas. 21p/9r/2 blk for nothing.

[J Shuttlesworth]

35% is not overrated. It's amazing at age 24.

2-18 FG with 10 turnovers and missing the game tying layup, followed by 6-24 FG with 7 turnovers.

Worst back to back in history.

Destructively bad.

Poor Zydrunas. 21p/9r/2 blk for nothing.
Ok so FG% matters to you... Good to know.

How is it possible that LeBron playing the worst series of his carer is still essentially on par with prime Kobe TS% and overall stat-wise? Sounds like an overall compliment to LeBron in the end.

[J Shuttlesworth]

BTW, I still want to know which playoff run you Kobe fans would like to compare to LeBron in 2012.

I'm under the assumption that you can just pick Kobe's best playoff run. Which one is it? Let's compare

[GrapeApe]

Lebron's run was slightly better, especially when factoring in defense. Wade and Gasol were both phenominal, but the Heat being able to overcome Bosh's injury works in Lebron's favor too.

[Magic 32]

Ok so FG% matters to you... Good to know.


Right, 2-18 does matter to me. You got me there. :roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Right, 2-18 does matter to me. You got me there. :roll:
So how come with LeBron playing horrid games, his TS% was still on par with prime Kobe's?

Waiting for your explanation.

Also, did Kobe win the series? Not sure why you're putting so much stress into a series with both Kobe and LeBron lost to the same team putting up similar numbers... especially with this thread being about 2012 vs. 2009

And if we're talking FG% as a hugely important stat, Kobe hasn't done anything close to what LeBron did 2012-14

[JT123]

So cute.

A Lebron fan omitting FG%

hmmmm must be really bad. :oldlol:
Lebron was playing with scrubs while Kobe had a superteam and was the favorite. Hmmm

[Magic 32]

BTW, I still want to know which playoff run you Kobe fans would like to compare to LeBron in 2012.

I'm under the assumption that you can just pick Kobe's best playoff run. Which one is it? Let's compare

And if we're talking FG% as a hugely important stat, Kobe hasn't done anything close to what LeBron did 2012-14



Nice to have a superstar who goes to a superteam so he can peak at the same time.

Can only imagine 06 Kobe on a superteam. Lord have mercy.

Damn you loyalty.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Nice to have a superstar who goes to a superteam so he can peak at the same time.

Can only imagine 06 Kobe on a superteam. Lord have mercy.
Yeah... you honestly haven't said anything of real substance this entire thread.

[JT123]

Yeah... you honestly haven't said anything of real substance this entire thread.
At least he's actually typing sentences. :lol Usually he just posts unfunny gifs.

[Magic 32]

Yeah... you honestly haven't said anything of real substance this entire thread.

It's called nuances. Understanding how lucky your hero was and how good Kobe is compared to him, despite taking the harder road.

More injuries, a bad and defenseless team at his peak, playing behind Shaq for 8 years, playing in the brutal west....and yet, still close dispite Lebron's calculated, constructed, forced, manipulated "mercenary position" in 2010-14.

[Kvnzhangyay]

It's called nuances. Understanding how lucky your hero was and how good Kobe is compared to him, despite taking the harder road.

More injuries, a bad and defenseless team at his peak, playing behind Shaq for 8 years, playing in the brutal west....and yet, still close dispite Lebron's calculated, constructed, forced, manipulated "mercenary position" in 2010-14.

So you admit Lebron was better

[J Shuttlesworth]

It's called nuances. Understanding how lucky your hero was and how good Kobe is compared to him, despite taking the harder road.

More injuries, a bad and defenseless team at his peak, playing behind Shaq for 8 years, playing in the brutal west....and yet, still close dispite Lebron's calculated, constructed, forced, manipulated "mercenary position" in 2010-14.
Yep, more posts with lack of substance and no real objectivity to it.

How does it make you feel that Shaq alone put up better numbers than Bosh/Wade combined for LeBron's 2 rings?

[AintNoSunshine]

Kobe fans and their logical gymnastics. :oldlol:

http://img.pandawhale.com/86751-gymnastics-uneven-bars-fail-gi-qlyA.gif
Thats cute tho

[Magic 32]

So you admit Lebron was better

Overall career wise...no.

He placed himself in a easier position at his peak which gave him the stats+winning that can be perceived as "better".

Taking that into account and 08-10 is more heroic and impressive than 12-14

[JT123]

lol

Game 3: Heat team played like shit for the first 3 quarters, down 22 going into the 4th. LeBron had 30 points through 3 quarters while Wade was the only one to crack double digit points with 12.

Game 4: Heat were down 5 going into the 4th, LeBron 3 pointer in the 4th to send the game to OT.

Game 5: lol @ arbitrary 8 minute mark, LeBron had 9 points in the 4th quarter.

but yeah lets all blame it on lebron.
We also have to remember that in game 4 Bron fouled out in overtime on a totally BS call. It's like Kobe stans think we don't actually remember what happened in those games. :lol
As you said, game 3 was a blow out and Spo basically waived the white flag after 3 quarters. The only game Lebron can sort of be blamed for is game 5, but as you said he still had 9 in the 4th.

[tpols]

Yep, more posts with lack of substance and no real objectivity to it.

How does it make you feel that Shaq alone put up better numbers than Bosh/Wade combined for LeBron's 2 rings?

Well.. Wade + Bosh put up 43/15/5 together in 2011.. But LeBron couldn't deal with them being that dominant.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Well.. Wade + Bosh put up 43/15/5 together in 2011.. But LeBron couldn't deal with them being that dominant.
Well when Wade decided he needed to take a backseat to LeBron, it ended up in back to back rings. Can't say it was a bad decision by Wade

[Magic 32]

Well when Wade decided he needed to take a backseat to LeBron, it ended up in back to back rings. Can't say it was a bad decision by Wade

Sure it was.

If Lebron is a good little second option in 2011, Wade's career would look better today even without those 2 sidekick rings.

All Lebron had to do was to show up once (Kobe in G4 va Pacers or Wade in G4 vs Spurs).

But Lebron refused.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Sure it was.

If Lebron is a good little second option in 2011, Wade's career would look better today even without those 2 sidekick rings.

All Lebron had to do was to show up once (Kobe in G4 va Pacers or Wade in G4 vs Spurs).

But Lebron refused.
Well you're not gonna a disagreement from me here..

LeBron ****ed up that year, plain and simple. With that 2011 ring, they'd be looking at a 3 peat and LeBron would be ranked ahead of Bird on the all time list. Damn shame

[Magic 32]

Well you're not gonna a disagreement from me here..

LeBron ****ed up that year, plain and simple. With that 2011 ring, they'd be looking at a 3 peat and LeBron would be ranked ahead of Bird on the all time list. Damn shame

I'm not talking about the overall Heat dynasty here, I'm talking about Wade's legacy.

You can easily argue that Wade is top 13-20 if he gets the 2011 finals MVP. Even without the next two rings.

Two for two in the finals and with the best stats since 91-93 MJ.

[tpols]

Well when Wade decided he needed to take a backseat to LeBron, it ended up in back to back rings. Can't say it was a bad decision by Wade
Yes.. But the point is you discredit Kobe for winning with a dominant force yet when LeBron was given the chance to do the same, he folded.. And only once Mike Miller and Battier were given more of the load directly from Wade and Bosh was he able to win.

[Mr. Jabbar]

surprised no1 mentioned 2012 was the most ref favored run in nba history (whole run, not just 1 series). looks like ya'll using boxscores and no eye test :no:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Yes.. But the point is you discredit Kobe for winning with a dominant force yet when LeBron was given the chance to do the same, he folded.. And only once Mike Miller and Battier were given more of the load directly from Wade and Bosh was he able to win.
I don't really discredit Kobe. I'm just saying it's stupid to say LeBron had a superteam and then act like Kobe had no help at all... Having the most dominant force since Jordan is a good amount of help, especially when you are surrounded by clutch shooters like Horry/Fisher. I think those Lakers could potentially beat the 2011-14 Heat in a series, so "superteam" is a stretch... People discredit LeBron for playing with Wade/Bosh, but it's not as if having Phil Jackson/Shaq at the start of your career isn't also a huge factor in rings.

[eliteballer]

I don't really discredit Kobe. I'm just saying it's stupid to say LeBron had a superteam and then act like Kobe had no help at all... Having the most dominant force since Jordan is a good amount of help, especially when you are surrounded by clutch shooters like Horry/Fisher. I think those Lakers could potentially beat the 2011-14 Heat in a series, so "superteam" is a stretch... People discredit LeBron for playing with Wade/Bosh, but it's not as if having Phil Jackson/Shaq at the start of your career isn't also a huge factor in rings.

More than canceled out by the fact that at the typical peak of a players career(Ages 25-28) Kobe was saddled by lottery talent.

Not to mention the fact that the teams they went through had much more top to bottom talent(Kings, Blazers, Spurs).

[tpols]

I don't really discredit Kobe. I'm just saying it's stupid to say LeBron had a superteam and then act like Kobe had no help at all... Having the most dominant force since Jordan is a good amount of help, especially when you are surrounded by clutch shooters like Horry/Fisher. I think those Lakers could potentially beat the 2011-14 Heat in a series, so "superteam" is a stretch... People discredit LeBron for playing with Wade/Bosh, but it's not as if having Phil Jackson/Shaq at the start of your career isn't also a huge factor in rings.

Kobe hardly gets any credit for any of those rings anyways.. His top ten status is made all post Shaq.. Scoring titles, MVP award, FMVPs, etc all won without Shaq.. He has a Hakeem type resume completely without Shaq. LeBron ain't in anyone's top 10 without Wade and Bosh.

[eliteballer]

Kobe hardly gets any credit for any of those rings anyways.. His top ten status is made all post Shaq.. Scoring titles, MVP award, FMVPs, etc all won without Shaq.. He has a Hakeem type resume completely without Shaq. LeBron ain't in anyone's top 10 without Wade and Bosh.

OUCH:roll: Tpols Goin In!!

[JT123]

Kobe hardly gets any credit for any of those rings anyways.. His top ten status is made all post Shaq.. Scoring titles, MVP award, FMVPs, etc all won without Shaq.. He has a Hakeem type resume completely without Shaq. LeBron ain't in anyone's top 10 without Wade and Bosh.
Kobe's in no one's top 30 without Shaq and Gasol.

[Magic 32]

Kobe's in no one's top 30 without Shaq and Gasol.

Hard to be if you're not allow one good player.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kobe hardly gets any credit for any of those rings anyways.. His top ten status is made all post Shaq.. Scoring titles, MVP award, FMVPs, etc all won without Shaq.. He has a Hakeem type resume completely without Shaq. LeBron ain't in anyone's top 10 without Wade and Bosh.
Yeah... no.. Only trolls don't credit Kobe for his first 3 rings.

Kobe spent some of his prime with lottery players, and LeBron spent his first what... 7 years in the league with lottery players and still made the finals. There's a big difference but both players had years where they had to deal with huge burdens and both players had years where they had good talent surrounding them. Nobody is trying to claim that Gasol/Bynum/Odom are as Wade/Bosh just like nobody is trying to say that Big Z/Mo williams are as good as Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom

[JT123]

Hard to be if you're not allow one good player.
True, but I would think a supposed top 10 player could at least win one playoff series without a good supporting cast. Kobe had 3 chances to do that and failed miserably, including an epic choke/quit job against the Suns in 06. :confusedshrug:

[Megabox!]

LBJ's run > The Mamba's. Anyone who isn't a Kobe stan or Laker fan knows Bron had a better run

[J Shuttlesworth]

LBJ's run > The Mamba's. Anyone who isn't a Kobe stan or Laker fan knows Bron had a better run
false

http://i.imgur.com/zev50iH.png

[JohnFreeman]

Kobe and LeBron stans should wage war on someone

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe and LeBron stans should wage war on someone

Shaq/Gasol & Wade/Bosh

[tpols]

Yeah... no.. Only trolls don't credit Kobe for his first 3 rings.

Kobe spent some of his prime with lottery players, and LeBron spent his first what... 7 years in the league with lottery players and still made the finals. There's a big difference but both players had years where they had to deal with huge burdens and both players had years where they had good talent surrounding them. Nobody is trying to claim that Gasol/Bynum/Odom are as Wade/Bosh just like nobody is trying to say that Big Z/Mo williams are as good as Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom


Didn't someone just show you stats showing that lebrons team took the 2008 Celtics farther than kobes team took them in the same year despite LeBron playing worse?

The 2008-2010 cavs were a scrappy team that could board and defend with the the best of them.. They were nowhere near a lottery team. They weren't super help but they were clearly above average.

Kobe's peak 2006-2007 was spent with scrubs unlike prime LeBron has ever played with and in a better conference. If you gave Kobe a great defensive and rebounding team out east and told him all he had to do was create offense he would've gone off.

[Magic 32]

True, but I would think a supposed top 10 player could at least win one playoff series without a good supporting cast. Kobe had 3 chances to do that and failed miserably, including an epic choke/quit job against the Suns in 06. :confusedshrug:

By "failed miserably" you mean one defensive breakdown away (by the biggest bust in NBA history)?

It's not that he didn't have a good supporting cast, it's that he had an awful and incompetent one.

And he still came as close to beating a 53 win team as you can come.

That would make it 1-1 between Kobe and Lebron in beating 50+ teams with less than great teammates.

But one had Kwame, the other had Booby Gibson, who for some reason chose to bail out Lebron against Detroit.

[DMAVS41]

Didn't someone just show you stats showing that lebrons team took the 2008 Celtics farther than kobes team took them in the same year despite LeBron playing worse?

The 2008-2010 cavs were a scrappy team that could board and defend with the the best of them.. They were nowhere near a lottery team. They weren't super help but they were clearly above average.

Kobe's peak 2006-2007 was spent with scrubs unlike prime LeBron has ever played with and in a better conference. If you gave Kobe a great defensive and rebounding team out east and told him all he had to do was create offense he would've gone off.

Spot on.

The only thing I'd mention is that Lebron was part of that defense. He was an above average defender and made a positive impact on the teams defense. Just trying to make sure we distinguish between that and Rose in 2011 for example. It wasn't a situation like that. LeBron was a tangible reason why those Cavs were so good defensively...

[J Shuttlesworth]

Didn't someone just show you stats showing that lebrons team took the 2008 Celtics farther than kobes team took them in the same year despite LeBron playing worse?

The 2008-2010 cavs were a scrappy team that could board and defend with the the best of them.. They were nowhere near a lottery team. They weren't super help but they were clearly above average.

Kobe's peak 2006-2007 was spent with scrubs unlike prime LeBron has ever played with and in a better conference. If you gave Kobe a great defensive and rebounding team out east and told him all he had to do was create offense he would've gone off.
Just be honest man. If you had the option of drafting Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom, or Williams/Varejao/West/Big Z, who would you pick?

[Bigsmoke]

i posted about this in first page. they heat down 2-3 because lebron did not come through

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

Stop trying fool everybody.

LeBron fouled out before he can do anything in OT in game 4

[Milbuck]

Didn't someone just show you stats showing that lebrons team took the 2008 Celtics farther than kobes team took them in the same year despite LeBron playing worse?

The 2008-2010 cavs were a scrappy team that could board and defend with the the best of them.. They were nowhere near a lottery team. They weren't super help but they were clearly above average.

Kobe's peak 2006-2007 was spent with scrubs unlike prime LeBron has ever played with and in a better conference. If you gave Kobe a great defensive and rebounding team out east and told him all he had to do was create offense he would've gone off.
This. There seems to be no middle ground for this stuff. You give Lebron a superstar talent like Wade and a star talent like Bosh, and they can't win until those two change their games and make significant sacrifices, and Lebron is given far more control of the offense. You give Lebron a hardworking, good shooting, defensive-minded team that gives Lebron the total control of everything that his game thrives in, and the supporting cast is trashed. His Cleveland teams weren't that great, and no one should've expected a championship out of them, but they were far from garbage. They were built around his strengths and style of play.

[PsychoBe]

Just be honest man. If you had the option of drafting Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom, or Williams/Varejao/West/Big Z, who would you pick?

the latter, easily. odom was almost crackded out, bynum was not useful in the slightest aside from just being a big body, and artest was a shell of his former self. the only serviceable help was gasol.

the triangle offense is meant to make role-players better and keep them within themselves, but without it bynum/artest/odom would be nothing to brag about at all.

[Bigsmoke]

:biggums: what happen to lebron this year then

just 1 year difference :confusedshrug:

actually same exact age as kobe in this thread (2009) what is your eplanation for lebron ?

LBJ didn't have his best season last year.


Everybody on ISH still said Kobe was the best in the league but now we like "yeah he was past his prime by then"

[J Shuttlesworth]

This. There seems to be no middle ground for this stuff. You give Lebron a superstar talent like Wade and a star talent like Bosh, and they can't win until those two change their games and make significant sacrifices, and Lebron is given far more control of the offense. You give Lebron a hardworking, good shooting, defensive-minded team that gives Lebron the total control of everything that his game thrives in, and the supporting cast is trashed. His Cleveland teams weren't that great, and no one should've expected a championship out of them, but they were far from garbage. They were built around his strengths and style of play.
Well this whole argument is predicated on how LeBron and Kobe play on "superteams" vs. "non-superteams"

tpols used Kobe winning his rings with gasol/bynum/artest/odom as his example of Kobe performing without a "superteam" and that cast is considerably better than the casts LeBron had before he joined the heat. Not a fair comparison, but LeBron still took the Cavs to the finals 1 year.

[J Shuttlesworth]

the latter, easily. odom was almost crackded out, bynum was not useful in the slightest aside from just being a big body, and artest was a shell of his former self. the only serviceable help was gasol.

the triangle offense is meant to make role-players better and keep them within themselves, but without it bynum/artest/odom would be nothing to brag about at all.
See it goes both ways... Kobe stans "trash" their supporting casts too

[JohnFreeman]

Gasol and Bynum were really good, not sure why people think differently.

[Milbuck]

Well this whole argument is predicated on how LeBron and Kobe play on "superteams" vs. "non-superteams"

tpols used Kobe winning his rings with gasol/bynum/artest/odom as his example of Kobe performing without a "superteam" and that cast is considerably better than the casts LeBron had before he joined the heat. Not a fair comparison, but LeBron still took the Cavs to the finals 1 year.
If that was the discussion then yeah I'd agree the 08-10 Lakers were a better cast than the 08-10 Cavs, certainly. Pau was an awesome #2 and they were well constructed teams. I was thinking of the 05-07 Lakers.

[PsychoBe]

See it goes both ways... Kobe stans "trash" their supporting casts too

stop being blind and actually be objective for once.

odom had seen far better days when he played alongside wade, artest was no where near his dpoy peak in indiana, and bynum was literally just a big-body. he averaged below double digits in points and rebounds :facepalm

gasol was the only real help.

the triangle made them look way better than they actually were because they continued to play within themselves.

meanwhile bran gets to have a defensive, pass-first team that was among the league's best in rebounding and play in an infinitely worse conference, and yet we're gonna pretend like the circumstances are the same?

[HOoopCityJones]

Why do people keep bringing up Bynum, the guy was a non factor til 2012. Way past that 2peat Laker run.

[J Shuttlesworth]

If that was the discussion then yeah I'd agree the 08-10 Lakers were a better cast than the 08-10 Cavs, certainly. Pau was an awesome #2 and they were well constructed teams. I was thinking of the 05-07 Lakers.
Well this all started with a comparison of the 08 Lakers vs. the Celtics and the 08 Cavs vs. the Celtics, where both Kobe and LeBron lost putting up similar numbers (despite LeBron having an atrocious FG%)

[J Shuttlesworth]

stop being blind and actually be objective for once.

odom had seen far better days when he played alongside wade, artest was no where near his dpoy peak in indiana, and bynum was literally just a big-body. he averaged below double digits in points and rebounds :facepalm

gasol was the only real help.

the triangle made them look way better than they actually were because they continued to play within themselves.

meanwhile bran gets to have a defensive, pass-first team that was among the league's best in rebounding and play in an infinitely worse conference, and yet we're gonna pretend like the circumstances are the same?
So you're saying 08-10 Cavs supporting cast > 08-10 Lakers cast?

[Element]

LeBron's 2012 ECF is sooooo overrated

He was allowed to play a ton with single-coverage on him. Boston focused their perimeter defense on Wade because he had teared them apart in two consecutive playoff series before the 2012 ECF. They were doubling that fool 18 feet away from the basket, off the ball. JVG points it out various times.

The Celtics weren't remotely close to full strength. KG randomly played like it was 08 again (had exceptional synergy with Rondo) and Rondo went into beast mode. Pierce and Allen were injured and played like sh.it throughout not only the series, but most of the playoffs. In addition to all of that Avery Bradley, who had been breaking out with his good play (even replacing Ray as a starter) and was their best perimeter defender was out for the series.

LeBron beat a team he was supposed to beat and put up the numbers he was supposed to put up with that type of coverage on him. That game 6 was otherworldy but the rest not so much.

[Bigsmoke]

Why do people keep bringing up Bynum, the guy was a non factor til 2012. Way past that 2peat Laker run.

By um was putting in work in 2011. Plus he was a factor in that Thunder series

[Bigsmoke]

LeBron's 2012 ECF is sooooo overrated

He was allowed to play a ton with single-coverage on him. Boston focused their perimeter defense on Wade because he had teared them apart in two consecutive playoff series before the 2012 ECF. They were doubling that fool 18 feet away from the basket, off the ball. JVG points it out various times.

The Celtics weren't remotely close to full strength. KG randomly played like it was 08 again (had exceptional synergy with Rondo) and Rondo went into beast mode. Pierce and Allen were injured and played like sh.it throughout not only the series, but most of the playoffs. In addition to all of that Avery Bradley, who had been breaking out with his good play (even replacing Ray as a starter) and was their best perimeter defender was out for the series.

LeBron beat a team he was supposed to beat and put up the numbers he was supposed to put up with that type of coverage on him. That game 6 was otherworldy but the rest not so much.


Pierce and Allen were at least healthy enough to play. Yao and Tmac weren't and the Lakers still went to 7 games with them boys:lol


The Lakers didnt really face anybody amazing in 2009. The Thunder was a team with 3 All Star and were the favorites to win the Finals

[JohnFreeman]

Pierce and Allen were at least healthy enough to play. Yao and Tmac weren't and the Lakers still went to 7 games with them boys:lol


The Lakers didnt really face anybody amazing in 2009. The Thunder was a team with 3 All Star and were the favorites to win the Finals
True

[HOoopCityJones]

LeBron's 2012 ECF is sooooo overrated

He was allowed to play a ton with single-coverage on him. Boston focused their perimeter defense on Wade because he had teared them apart in two consecutive playoff series before the 2012 ECF. They were doubling that fool 18 feet away from the basket, off the ball. JVG points it out various times.

The Celtics weren't remotely close to full strength. KG randomly played like it was 08 again (had exceptional synergy with Rondo) and Rondo went into beast mode. Pierce and Allen were injured and played like sh.it throughout not only the series, but most of the playoffs. In addition to all of that Avery Bradley, who had been breaking out with his good play (even replacing Ray as a starter) and was their best perimeter defender was out for the series.

LeBron beat a team he was supposed to beat and put up the numbers he was supposed to put up with that type of coverage on him. That game 6 was otherworldy but the rest not so much.

Exactly.


That Boston Team was ancient outside of Rondo. Maybe if Lebron played how he was supposed to in the first place during that series , he wouldn't have needed a quote-unquote legendary performance. :oldlol:

It still kills me how these foos give him extra credit for playing up to his God given talent.

[navy]

LeBron's 2012 ECF is sooooo overrated

He was allowed to play a ton with single-coverage on him. Boston focused their perimeter defense on Wade because he had teared them apart in two consecutive playoff series before the 2012 ECF. They were doubling that fool 18 feet away from the basket, off the ball. JVG points it out various times.

The Celtics weren't remotely close to full strength. KG randomly played like it was 08 again (had exceptional synergy with Rondo) and Rondo went into beast mode. Pierce and Allen were injured and played like sh.it throughout not only the series, but most of the playoffs. In addition to all of that Avery Bradley, who had been breaking out with his good play (even replacing Ray as a starter) and was their best perimeter defender was out for the series.

LeBron beat a team he was supposed to beat and put up the numbers he was supposed to put up with that type of coverage on him. That game 6 was otherworldy but the rest not so much.

33/11/4 on 53% shooting are the numbers Lebron was suppose to put up? Lebron was straight ballin. Led that series in rebounding and im pretty sure he led that entire playoffs in rebounding. Heat were already small and with Bosh injured Lebron was basically the Heats only big. Nothing overrated about that performance at all.

[HOoopCityJones]

Pierce and Allen were at least healthy enough to play. Yao and Tmac weren't and the Lakers still went to 7 games with them boys:lol


The Lakers didnt really face anybody amazing in 2009. The Thunder was a team with 3 All Star and were the favorites to win the Finals

Aaron Brooks man. After that series we all thought he was gonna go do bigger and better things, but the dude underachieved in all things pretty much after that series.



Also saying The Lakers didn't face anyone notable in 2009 is ****ing laughable. At least half our conference wasn't out or returning from injury. Oh yea , and the general shockwave from three All-stars of the conference Teaming up couldn't have depleted the Eastern Conference anymore than it did when the Big three first came together.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Why do people keep calling the Celtics old, but disregard the fact that they were highest ranked defense in the league that year?

[Bigsmoke]

Exactly.


That Boston Team was ancient outside of Rondo. Maybe if Lebron played how he was supposed to in the first place during that series , he wouldn't have needed a quote-unquote legendary performance. :oldlol:

It still kills me how these foos give him extra credit for playing up to his God given talent.

And the 09 Nuggets were somewhat idiots. The Celtics at least had championship experience with guys with high IQs "besides Mickael Pietrus:oldlol: "And plus KG had a flashback year.

[PsychoBe]

So you're saying 08-10 Cavs supporting cast > 08-10 Lakers cast?

relative to their competition yes.

bran's first "threat" was a gilbert arenas lead wizards, he then lost to the superior celtics.

the year after he sweeps the ailing, old, injured, past their prime detroit. followed by a well inferior hawks team, before then coming short against the dwight-lead magics that had a similar team makeup as bran's team did.

a bunch of defensive minded players that stretched the floor with shooting so dwight can give his team good looks passing out of the double team.

cavs had hca and still lost.

meanwhile the lakers in 08' had to beat a prime d-will and carlos boozer tangent, and the spurs.

then in 09' they had to go against a prime yao and a revitalized artest, and a prime melo with a great cast in the wcf before then beating the very team bran lost to and put up historic stats in the finals that bran has never duplicated remotely.

[J Shuttlesworth]

relative to their competition yes.

bran's first "threat" was a gilbert arenas lead wizards, he then lost to the superior celtics.

the year after he sweeps the ailing, old, injured, past their prime detroit. followed by a well inferior hawks team, before then coming short against the dwight-lead magics that had a similar team makeup as bran's team did.

a bunch of defensive minded players that stretched the floor with shooting so dwight can give his team good looks passing out of the double team.

cavs had hca and still lost.

meanwhile the lakers in 08' had to beat a prime d-will and carlos boozer tangent, and the spurs.

then in 09' they had to go against a prime yao and a revitalized artest, and a prime melo with a great cast in the wcf before then beating the very team bran lost to and put up historic stats in the finals that bran has never duplicated remotely.
Wait... relative to their competition. Disregard that and just give me a straight answer which cast you think is better. And yes, you do have to consider coaching as part of the supporting cast since coaches play a big factor in a game and having Phil is obviously better than Mike Brown.

And disregard relative to the competition especially since we are talking about LeBron and Kobe against the same competition (Celtics)

[HOoopCityJones]

By um was putting in work in 2011. Plus he was a factor in that Thunder series

You mean when he couldn't stop little JJ Barea from getting to the cup for an entire series til he finally got mad and decided to hit him out mid air on a layup AFTER shit was completely out of reach?

[HOoopCityJones]

And the 09 Nuggets were somewhat idiots. The Celtics at least had championship experience with guys with high IQs "besides Mickael Pietrus:oldlol: "And plus KG had a flashback year.

Melo and Billups had every chance to sway that series in their favor, Kobe and Ariza were just too good defensively.

[Bigsmoke]

relative to their competition yes.

bran's first "threat" was a gilbert arenas lead wizards, he then lost to the superior celtics.

the year after he sweeps the ailing, old, injured, past their prime detroit. followed by a well inferior hawks team, before then coming short against the dwight-lead magics that had a similar team makeup as bran's team did.

a bunch of defensive minded players that stretched the floor with shooting so dwight can give his team good looks passing out of the double team.

cavs had hca and still lost.

meanwhile the lakers in 08' had to beat a prime d-will and carlos boozer tangent, and the spurs.

then in 09' they had to go against a prime yao and a revitalized artest, and a prime melo with a great cast in the wcf before then beating the very team bran lost to and put up historic stats in the finals that bran has never duplicated remotely.



Yao got hurt after game 3:oldlol:

Ron Artest wasn't having some spectacular year. He got ate up by Brandon Roy and then sucked in that Lakers series outside of game 1

[tpols]

Just be honest man. If you had the option of drafting Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom, or Williams/Varejao/West/Big Z, who would you pick?
Thats a false comparison.. If we're arguing peaks, it'd be smush/kwame/Odom for your pair.

[PsychoBe]

Wait... relative to their competition. Disregard that and just give me a straight answer which cast you think is better. And yes, you do have to consider coaching as part of the supporting cast since coaches play a big factor in a game and having Phil is obviously better than Mike Brown.

And disregard relative to the competition especially since we are talking about LeBron and Kobe against the same competition (Celtics)

since you want to add coaching then yes kobe's was better, but that was the only thing to keep odom/artest/bynum in line. bran's supporting cast always played within themselves and were never truly a burden unless they just had bad shooting nights which happens to the best of them.

but even that's hard to argue when you have bran's teams winning back-to-back 60+ win seasons

[Bigsmoke]

Melo and Billups had every chance to sway that series in their favor, Kobe and Ariza were just too good defensively.

Rondo, Pierce, Allen, and rejuvenate it Kevin Garnett > Billups and Melo.


And again, the Nuggets wasn't a bright basketball club. They were basically the Hawks at the time in the West.

[PsychoBe]

Yao got hurt after game 3:oldlol:

Ron Artest wasn't having some spectacular year. He got ate up by Brandon Roy and then sucked in that Lakers series outside of game 1

aaron brooks had the second highest scoring game in that series behind kobe himself. he was a flat-out stud if you can even remember what happened.

[Bigsmoke]

Thats a false comparison.. If we're arguing peaks, it'd be smush/kwame/Odom for your pair.

08 Kobe was the Kobe that knew how to control the game as well as turn up when needed. There is no doubt that 08 Kobe was better than the 07 one

[rlsmooth775]

Lebron has been a better player than kobe on both ends since 2004 -2005 stats prove it.

[J Shuttlesworth]

since you want to add coaching then yes kobe's was better, but that was the only thing to keep odom/artest/bynum in line. bran's supporting cast always played within themselves and were never truly a burden unless they just had bad shooting nights which happens to the best of them.

but even that's hard to argue when you have bran's teams winning back-to-back 60+ win seasons
Kobe's team won back to back rings :kobe:

Maybe "burden" is out of line but don't act like it's a great championship caliber supporting cast that LeBron had

[J Shuttlesworth]

Thats a false comparison.. If we're arguing peaks, it'd be smush/kwame/Odom for your pair.
Actually we weren't arguing peaks necessarily. we were arguing "non-superteam" years

[Bigsmoke]

aaron brooks had the second highest scoring game in that series behind kobe himself. he was a flat-out stud if you can even remember what happened.

He was just playing like one because of Fisher. The Tickets were underman and undersized so I don't want to hear it

[ArbitraryWater]

2008 Kobe = Peak Kobe

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe's team won back to back rings :kobe:

Maybe "burden" is out of line but don't act like it's a great championship caliber supporting cast that LeBron had

LeBron never has a coach like Phil Jackson or a teammate like Shaq in his prime.

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron has been a better player than kobe on both ends since 2004 -2005 stats prove it.

Meh

Lebron been a better player since November 2008 to beyond


But I may add prime LeBron > prime Kobe

[PsychoBe]

Kobe's team won back to back rings :kobe:

Maybe "burden" is out of line but don't act like it's a great championship caliber supporting cast that LeBron had

the only thing i will say is that ultimately, bran's team was only going to go as far as he could take them since it was built around him. if he had a more of a balanced team then perhaps it would do wonders for him but the same could had been said about that orlando team too before they upset everyone.

[HOoopCityJones]

Rondo, Pierce, Allen, and rejuvenate it Kevin Garnett > Billups and Melo.


And again, the Nuggets wasn't a bright basketball club. They were basically the Hawks at the time in the West.

Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Allen Iverson, Dahntey Jones, Young Birdman. George Karl coaching.

That Team was stacked. You're an idiot.

[navy]

the only thing i will say is that ultimately, bran's team was only going to go as far as he could take them since it was built around him. if he had a more of a balanced team then perhaps it would do wonders for him but the same could had been said about that orlando team too before they upset everyone.
Dwight Howard destroyed Varejao, whereas Pau Gasol destroyed Dwight. Was the difference really.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Allen Iverson, Dahntey Jones, Young Birdman. George Karl coaching.

That Team was stacked. You're an idiot.

You need to add Iverson who wasn't even on the team anymore by that time you ****tard :roll:

Played 3 games for the '09 Nugz lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Allen Iverson, Dahntey Jones, Young Birdman. George Karl coaching.

That Team was stacked. You're an idiot.
:biggums:

[JT123]

Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Allen Iverson, Dahntey Jones, Young Birdman. George Karl coaching.

That Team was stacked. You're an idiot.
And this is why no one takes Kobe stans seriously.

[Milbuck]

2008 Kobe = Peak Kobe
Not really.

[HOoopCityJones]

:biggums:

And this is why no one takes Kobe stans seriously.

You need to add Iverson who wasn't even on the team anymore by that time you ****tard :roll:

Played 3 games for the '09 Nugz lol

Whether you like it or not bitch (notice the singularity) they had a well balanced roster. :oldlol:

[Bigsmoke]

Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Allen Iverson, Dahntey Jones, Young Birdman. George Karl coaching.

That Team was stacked. You're an idiot.
Watch the Knicks and tell me having a basketball IQ isn't an important aspect in the game of basketball.

George Karl never won shit so how is that a bragging right.:lol

[red1]

Lebron has been a better player than kobe on both ends since 2004 -2005 stats prove it.
obvious troll post. 08 bean >> 08 lbj

[rlsmooth775]

obvious troll post. 08 bean >> 08 lbj

How when stats show Lebron was superior on both ends Kobe was a negative on defense plus minus

[red1]

on topic I am sure we will look back at either '12 or '09 as lbj's absolute best seasons whereas 2008 and 2006 were the best of bean. 12 lbj was slightly better than 09 bean

[red1]

How when stats show Lebron was superior on both ends Kobe was a negative on defense plus minus
stat aren't everything. kobe was slightly better on offense AND defense. 08 offseason was when lbj took the leap in defense and offensive efficiency, no surprise that was the same season he got the chance to learn from the best by training with team usa in the summer olympics

[rlsmooth775]

stat aren't everything. kobe was slightly better on offense AND defense. 08 offseason was when lbj took the leap in defense and offensive efficiency, no surprise that was the same season he got the chance to learn from the best by training with team usa in the summer olympics

Lebron led the league in scoring, and shot a higher percentage. Lebrons defense was way better not even close

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron has been definitively better in real time, and in overall all-time NBA context since 2009.

I think that is kind of obvious. Anyone clinging to the idea Kobe is better all-time is delusional. I say that as someone having enjoyed Kobe's game. At one time I was a really big fan, but I readily admit when someone has been surpassed.

Kobe at the end of the day might be more respected, but LeBron is both better, and greater.

[PsychoBe]

LeBron has been definitively better in real time, and in overall NBA context since 2009.

I think that is kind of obvious. Anyone clinging to the idea Kobe is better all-time is delusional. I say that as someone having enjoyed Kobe's game. At one time I was a really big fan, but I readily admit when someone has been surpassed.

Kobe at the end of the day might be more respected, but LeBron is both better, and greater.

you can't be serious. what is your overall criteria?

you can't say bran's a better scorer when kobe is the highest scoring perimeter player of all time.

you can't say bran's a better career defender when he's fallen off a cliff already and kobe has more first-team defensive selections.

you can't say bran generates more assists when kobe has more all-time now obviously.

you can't even say that bran is the better all-around player when kobe is literally in his own club (30k/6k/6k)

and you can't say bran is more of a winner when kobe has more finals appearances, more finals wins, and less losses already

so please tell me what agenda you are trying to push right now? mvps? because nash has twice as many as shaq, barkley, malone, and kobe. :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

30 years old v.s. 36 years old
28/7/7 v.s. 25/5/5
4x MVPs v.s. MVP
2x Finals MVPs v.s. 2x Finals MVPs
2x Championships v.s. 5x Championships

LeBron will pass basically all of Kobe's all-time accumlative records. The only leg to stand on is the 3x more rings Kobe has playing along side a better player.

Kobe's whole legacy has other people attached. Shaq, Jordan's Shadow, Phil Jackson, etc. His mold is too based off being derivative MJ.

LeBron's career in singularity is more unique. Particularly his game. He's the first of his kind. The mold was broke with him. Even down to the Free Agent team hopping, and collusion.

[Mr Feeny]

IMO it's one of the best performances I've ever witnessed. He single handedly destroyed that team with out a great deal of help that game from his teammates. He also took his foot off the pedal in the 4th because the lead ballooned so large.

I agree with you. I actually think it's his greatest performance ever considering the stakes.

The only other Heat player in double figures was Wade who shot 6-18.
On the defensive end, James held Pierce to 4-18 (!) Shooting. 45 points 15 rebounds and 5 assists IN Boston, in an elimination game, on 70%fg.

That was truly stunning.

[Mr Feeny]

you can't be serious. what is your overall criteria?

you can't say bran's a better scorer when kobe is the highest scoring perimeter player of all time.

you can't say bran's a better career defender when he's fallen off a cliff already and kobe has more first-team defensive selections.

you can't say bran generates more assists when kobe has more all-time now obviously.

you can't even say that bran is the better all-around player when kobe is literally in his own club (30k/6k/6k)

and you can't say bran is more of a winner when kobe has more finals appearances, more finals wins, and less losses already

so please tell me what agenda you are trying to push right now? mvps? because nash has twice as many as shaq, barkley, malone, and kobe. :facepalm

Lebron averages more ppg by a fair margin and on a much higher shooting percentage. Lebron's a better scorer any way you spin it. This is not factoring in his all around game,which eclipses Kobe in almost ever facet. What drugs are you on?

[PsychoBe]

30 years old v.s. 36 years old
28/7/7 v.s. 25/5/5
4x MVPs v.s. MVP
2x Finals MVPs v.s. 2x Finals MVPs
2x Championships v.s. 5x Championships

LeBron will pass basically all of Kobe's all-time accumlative records. The only leg to stand on is the 3x more rings Kobe has playing along side a better player.

Kobe's whole legacy has other people attached. Shaq, Jordan's Shadow, Phil Jackson, etc. His mold is too based off being derivative MJ.

LeBron's career in singularity is more unique. Particularly his game. He's the first of his kind. The mold was broke with him. Even down to the Free Agent team hopping, and collusion.

now you're just writing narratives. kobe was voted as the player of the decade even before he repeated, but his "legacy has other people attached" :facepalm

then of course you post bran's career averages without even taking into account that just possibly as he gets older and declines that it will go down? :oldlol:

then you say bran is "unique" when everyone kept comparing him to magic and oscar :facepalm

i already gave you the facts.

bran has less rings, scored less points, less all-defensive first teams, less total assists (kobe has the most out of any non-point guard in nba history), and has already lost more in the finals than kobe ever had.

no way in hell can an unbiased party ever say that bran is higher all-time than kobe.

[PsychoBe]

Lebron averages more ppg by a fair margin and on a much higher shooting percentage. Lebron's a better scorer any way you spin it. This is not factoring in his all around game,which eclipses Kobe in almost ever facet. What drugs are you on?

bran's a better scorer but kobe is third all-time and the highest out of any perimeter player?

[AlphaWolf24]

30 years old v.s. 36 years old
28/7/7 v.s. 25/5/5
4x MVPs v.s. MVP
2x Finals MVPs v.s. 2x Finals MVPs
2x Championships v.s. 5x Championships

LeBron will pass basically all of Kobe's all-time accumlative records. The only leg to stand on is the 3x more rings Kobe has playing along side a better player.

Kobe's whole legacy has other people attached. Shaq, Jordan's Shadow, Phil Jackson, etc. His mold is too based off being derivative MJ.

LeBron's career in singularity is more unique. Particularly his game. He's the first of his kind. The mold was broke with him. Even down to the Free Agent team hopping, and collusion.


Bill Rusell vs Jordan

11 Rings vs 6
FMVP's named after him ( consensus = at least 9 FMVP's for Russell) vs 6
5MVP's vs 5
15PPG 22REB 4AST vs 30ppb 6reb 5ast
2NCAA Titles vs 1


Russell is widely considered the greatest defensive player in Basketball History and the greatest Winner in American team sports History!

Russell also won NBA Titles as a Player Coach, was the first Black coach in NBA History...

a true Basketball GOAT ( according to yer own criteria)



Jordan was a flashy player who got mopped up off the floor in the 80's.....watered down 90's came around and he got more superstar calls then any player ever ( Up until that time)...seriously you couldn't even lookat him wrong and ot get called for a foul.

MJ retired and his teams barely skipped a beat.

The only thing MJ has over Russell is the IBM award.....lol

[Mr Feeny]

bran's a better scorer but kobe is third all-time and the highest out of any perimeter player?

He isn't third all time at all:eek:
In the all time ppg he isn't even top 10 if I'm correct.

You can have total points which don't make him a better scorer than Lebron the same way Karl Malone playing more games than Jordan and scoring more total points doesn't Make him a better scorer.

LEBRON is a career 27 ppg scorer on 50%fg
Kobe is a career 25 ppg scorer on a pathetic 45%fg

Next

[PsychoBe]

He isn't third all time at all:eek:
In the all time ppg he isn't even top 10 if I'm correct.

You can have total points which don't make him a better scorer than Lebron the same way Karl Malone playing more games than Jordan and scoring more total points doesn't Make him a better scorer.

LEBRON is a career 27 ppg scorer on 50%fg
Kobe is a career 25 ppg scorer on a pathetic 45%fg

Next

so you want to play that game?

how many 80 point games does bran have compared to kobe?
how many 70?
how many 60?
how many 50?
how many 40?
how many 30?
how many 20?

answer those questions then come back to me.

[Mr Feeny]

so you want to play that game?

how many 80 point games does bran have compared to kobe?
how many 70?
how many 60?
how many 50?
how many 40?
how many 30?
how many 20?

answer those questions then come back to me.


You are right. Kobe has an 80 point game while Lebron doesn't. That makes kobe a better scorer than Lebron. You are a genius:applause:

[PsychoBe]

You are right. Kobe has an 80 point game while Lebron doesn't. That makes kobe a better scorer than Lebron. You are a genius:applause:

i could have sworn i had more on that list than just 80 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

go do some research and show me the results.

[AlphaWolf24]

He isn't third all time at all:eek:
In the all time ppg he isn't even top 10 if I'm correct.

You can have total points which don't make him a better scorer than Lebron the same way Karl Malone playing more games than Jordan and scoring more total points doesn't Make him a better scorer.

LEBRON is a career 27 ppg scorer on 50%fg
Kobe is a career 25 ppg scorer on a pathetic 45%fg

Next


question...

so is Kevin Love a equal ......or better scorer then Tracy McGrady

Love career = 19PPG 45%
TMAC career = 19ppg 43%

[Mr Feeny]

i could have sworn i had more on that list than just 80 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

go do some research and show me the results.

Here are the results. If you take all of Kobe's 80,70,60,50,40,30,20,10 and sub 10 games you get an average of 25 ppg.

Do that with Lebron and the answer is 27. Those are the results.
How old are you?:biggums:

[JT123]

Feeny shittin all over these Kobe stans. :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron has been definitively better in real time, and in overall all-time NBA context since 2009.

I think that is kind of obvious. Anyone clinging to the idea Kobe is better all-time is delusional. I say that as someone having enjoyed Kobe's game. At one time I was a really big fan, but I readily admit when someone has been surpassed.

Kobe at the end of the day might be more respected, but LeBron is both better, and greater.

This isn't a discussion about their peaks.

When they're both long retired from the game, yes, LeBron will likely rate ahead of Kobe on an All Time scale, but RIGHT NOW? As we speak? Umm, Kobe actually does have a case over LeBron, and anyone that honestly has an issue with that, seriously needs to have their basketball acumen put into check.

[AlphaWolf24]

so Kevin Love is a better scorer then TMAC was....at least more efficient and equal...


:D

[Mr Feeny]

Feeny shittin all over these Kobe stans. :lol

JT123 is a solid poster:applause:
Knows his stuff:bowdown:

[AlphaWolf24]

Kevin Love is a better scorer then Tmac....

[Mr Feeny]

This isn't a discussion about their peaks.

When they're both long retired from the game, yes, LeBron will likely rate ahead of Kobe on an All Time scale, but RIGHT NOW? As we speak? Umm, Kobe actually does have a case over LeBron, and anyone that honestly has an issue with that, would seriously have their basketball iq put into question.

What case would that be because the much younger Lebron already has the same number of FMVPS and quadruple his MVPS. And destroys him stats, wise.

Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spa, %fg, 3%fg

Anythung you want. ALL Lebron.

[20Four]

JT123 is a solid poster:applause:
Knows his stuff:bowdown:
No shit you would say that, yall are the same person :roll: :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

No shit you would say that, yall are the same person :roll: :roll:

Nah. JT is a member of the Lebron family. I have never been invited nor am a Lebron fan.
But you are Magic 32 and I'mKobe. We know this:applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

What case would that be because the much younger Lebron already has the same number of FMVPS and quadruple his MVPS. And destroys him stats, wise.

Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spa, %fg, 3%fg

Anythung you want. ALL Lebron.


- the same case Michael Jordan has over Bill Russell...even doe Russ has better overall stats and nearly doubled up MJ on Titles and FMVP's ( consensus 9 FMVP's) has the FMVPnamed after him...

yet most people still have MJ>Russ...just as most people have KB>LBJ

[tpols]

What case would that be because the much younger Lebron already has the same number of FMVPS and quadruple his MVPS. And destroys him stats, wise.

Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spa, %fg, 3%fg

Anythung you want. ALL Lebron.
LeBron has better stats than a lot of guys ahead of him.. Way better career stats and efficiency than Tim Duncan, Larry bird, Bill Russell, etc

but those stats are at the detriment of other star players around him.. Wade, Bosh love.. All worse stats. LeBron sucks away their stats and redistributes them to himself and various spot up shooters.. Doesn't really make him better.. If anything it handicaps team success hence 2/5.

[20Four]

Nah. JT is a member of the Lebron family. I have never been invited nor am a Lebron fan.
But you are Magic 32 and I'mKobe. We know this:applause:
I only had 1 alt and that one got banned (Swaggaboy80six) thats it lol I dont need to lie son

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What case would that be because the much younger Lebron already has the same number of FMVPS and quadruple his MVPS. And destroys him stats, wise.

Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spa, %fg, 3%fg

Anythung you want. ALL Lebron.

For starters, the number of championship runs Kobe has put work in.

Shaq was without a doubt the best player on those dynasty Laker teams, and while technically they're considered mere sidekick rings for Kobe, dude still beasted. Postseason runs (at the time) of 29/7/6 and ~27/6/5 - we simply cant ignore that because of some narrative.

The case to be made for Kobe is championships obviously, but you could say that he was also a better scorer at his absolute peak, a better scorer overall in his prime (more 40, 50 and 60pt games), and had a visibly more polished and refined offensive game.

You could argue either or, but to say Kobe doesn't have a case is disingenuous, imo.

[Mr Feeny]

For starters, the number of championship runs Kobe has put work in.

Shaq was without a doubt the best player on those dynasty Laker teams, and while technically they're considered mere sidekick rings for Kobe, dude still beasted. Postseason runs (at the time) of 29/7/6 and ~27/6/5 - we simply cant ignore that because of some narrative.

The case to be made for Kobe is championships obviously, but you could say that he was also a better scorer at his absolute peak, a better scorer overall in his prime (more 40, 50 and 60pt games), and had a visibly more polished and refined offensive game.

You could argue either or, but to say Kobe doesn't have a case is disingenuous, imo.Fair play to you if you feel that way, but I don't agree. As you said he had Shaq. You cannot seriously make Kobe's argument based on titles when he had Shaq in his team. Lebron's second best player when he lead the Cavs to the finals on 07? Larry Hughes. This cannot be a serious debate.

You're entitled to your own opinion ofcourse, but I have Lebron ahead and I don't think it's even close tbf.

[JT123]

LeBron has better stats than a lot of guys ahead of him.. Way better career stats and efficiency than Tim Duncan, Larry bird, Bill Russell, etc

but those stats are at the detriment of other star players around him.. Wade, Bosh love.. All worse stats. LeBron sucks away their stats and redistributes them to himself and various spot up shooters.. Doesn't really make him better.. If anything it handicaps team success hence 2/5.
And how successful have the Heat been this year with the improved stat lines of superstars Wade and Bosh? Based on your logic they should be on track to win 60 games, now that Lebron isn't around to handicap the success of the team. :confusedshrug:

[AlphaWolf24]

Fair play to you if you feel that way, but I don't agree. As you said he had Shaq. You cannot seriously make Kobe's argument based on titles when he had Shaq in his team. Lebron's second best player when he lead the Cavs to the finals on 07? Larry Hughes. This cannot be a serious debate.

You're entitled to your own opinion ofcourse, but I have Lebron ahead and I don't think it's even close tbf.


Penny had Shaq, Lebron Had Shaq and couldn't do sh!t , Nash had Shaq, ..sh!t who hasn't had Snaq???


Kobe should be held in higher regard for winning with Lazy Snaq 2 years in a row......none of those other guys could do that!

replaced Snaq with a soft Euro and still nearly 3 peated...

[Mr Feeny]

And how successful have the Heat been this year with the improved stat lines of superstars Wade and Bosh? Based on your logic they should be on track to win 60 games, now that Lebron isn't around to handicap the success of the team. :confusedshrug:I think he was trolling. He's currently enjoying Kobe's winning basketball which helps team success. Evidenced by the Lakers' ranking.

[Mr Feeny]

Penny had Shaq, Lebron Had Shaq and couldn't do sh!t , Nash had Shaq, ..sh!t who hasn't had Snaq???


Kobe should be held in higher regard for winning with Lazy Snaq 2 years in a row......none of those other guys could do that!

replaced Snaq with a soft Euro and still nearly 3 peated...

What in the:biggums:

[tpols]

And how successful have the Heat been this year with the improved stat lines of superstars Wade and Bosh? Based on your logic they should be on track to win 60 games, now that Lebron isn't around to handicap the success of the team. :confusedshrug:

Wade and Bosh could've easily won a championship together when they first paired up...almost won in spite of lebron. That was when they were still prime.


It's funny looking at love this year.. He's been a 17/10/2 player with LeBron after being a 25/12 player without him.. Bron sits out this past week, and today love drops 30/10/3.:oldlol:

Luckily for me Bron is out for a while an Love won't have his stats absorbed away on my fantasy squad.

[AlphaWolf24]

What in the:biggums:


:wtf: :biggums:

[JT123]

Wade and Bosh could've easily won a championship together when they first paired up...almost won in spite of lebron. That was when they were still prime.


It's funny looking at love this year.. He's been a 17/10/2 player with LeBron after being a 25/12 player without him.. Bron sits out this past week, and today love drops 30/10/3.:oldlol:

Luckily for me Bron is out for a while an Love won't have his stats absorbed away on my fantasy squad.
I didn't ask about when they first paired up, I asked about this year. You said Lebron's style of play hinders team success, and if that is true shouldn't the Heat should be doing better this year than they did last year? Stop moving the goal post and answer the question please. :D
I see Love did drop some nice stats today, but considering the Cavs got blow out is it really that impressive? :sleeping

[NBASTATMAN]

Penny had Shaq, Lebron Had Shaq and couldn't do sh!t , Nash had Shaq, ..sh!t who hasn't had Snaq???


Kobe should be held in higher regard for winning with Lazy Snaq 2 years in a row......none of those other guys could do that!

replaced Snaq with a soft Euro and still nearly 3 peated...


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Damn you are dumb... LOL

Shaq in his prime vs Shaq out of his prime...

[PsychoBe]

Here are the results. If you take all of Kobe's 80,70,60,50,40,30,20,10 and sub 10 games you get an average of 25 ppg.

Do that with Lebron and the answer is 27. Those are the results.
How old are you?:biggums:

you are clueless :oldlol:

the best argument you have is that bran is a more "consistent" scorer, but no, let's ignore the fact that bran has played considerably less seasons and thus will inflate his scoring averages. :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Damn you are dumb... LOL

Shaq in his prime vs Shaq out of his prime...

take the wax outta yo ears you Donkey!

I was using that bogus criteria to show context to another Donkey's bogus criteria...

go hate on Kobe somewhere else....

[20Four]

Lebron led the league in scoring, and shot a higher percentage. Lebrons defense was way better not even close
Honestly how much is LeBRONZE paying you? Because you can't be this fvcking stupid...I swear someone has to be paying you to always put bull$hit on these forums.....you're becoming a joke on these forums, maybe thats all the value you fvcking have, something for us to laugh at

[Lebron23]

I have to go with LeBron.

[34-24 Footwork]

Going with the guy that didn't lose to Dwight Howard

[ImKobe]

Lebron lost to the same team Kobe beat that year..and Lebron had HCA and a better record than the Lakers...

[Jordan96]

Lebron lost to the same team Kobe beat that year..and Lebron had HCA and a better record than the Lakers...


LeBron averaged more points rebounds and assists and shot a higher FG% against the Magic

[ImKobe]

LeBron averaged more points rebounds and assists and shot a higher FG% against the Magic

He had 25 points on 40%FG in Game 6 and couldn't play off-ball like Kobe did. Sometimes it helps to actually watch the series and learn that not all stats are created equal.

[RRR3]

He had 25 points on 40%FG in Game 6 and couldn't play off-ball like Kobe did. Sometimes it helps to actually watch the series and learn that not all stats are created equal.
25 on 40% bad. 23 on 25% good.










:roll:

[ImKobe]

25 on 40% bad. 23 on 25% good.










:roll:

Different series. Like I said, it helps to actually watch the games.

[RRR3]

Kobe good. LeBron bad.
Every single post. Christ.

[CTbasketball92]

2012 boston series is so overated

he only had to have a historic game because they lost 3 game in a row which they should have won

game 3: lebron score 4 points in whole 4th quarter , zero in final 8 minutes. in the quarter outscored by mike miller ( 9 point), wade ( 6 point), chalmers( 7points). heat lose by 10

game 4: lebron is scoreless in overtime, 0-2 with 2 turnover, heat lose by 2

game 5: 74-72 heat lead w/ 8 min left, lebron score just 2 points in the last 8 min and wade 10 points and heat lose by 4

they had their back againt the wall because lebron did not come through in 3 games ina row. that series should not have went 7


This is why I actually think 2015-2020 Bron >>>> other versions of LeBron. There is no way LeBron now would let what happened between games 3 and 5 go down. He literally did just have some mental lapses and some issues with his mentality at imes.

[999Guy]

This is why I actually think 2015-2020 Bron >>>> other versions of LeBron. There is no way LeBron now would let what happened between games 3 and 5 go down. He literally did just have some mental lapses and some issues with his mentality at imes.

Mental lapses? More like he was playing KG who smelled blood and could sense it being one of their last shots and was playing out of his mind defensively.


As a matter of fact, KG locked down every single elite offense he faced in the playoffs from 08-13. Every. Single. One.

The ONE year the Celtics didn’t was 09 when KG was injured. Even in 2011 against Miami they absolutely lost because of offense and really gave Miami trouble defensively.

LeBron hasn’t faced a defense of that caliber in years. Not since 2015 Finals when Iggy was still young-ish, Bogut was on HIS last legs like KG was(it’s a deadly thing when a super talented defensive player gains so much experience over a career but is still healthy enough to attack offenses. Duncan at the end, KG at the end, and Bogut are clear examples).

LeBron did fantastic considering competition and his supporting cast.

[Rico2016]

What years did Kobe score 30 for an entire playoffs run to a chip on only 21.8 fga?

[SouBeachTalents]

Mental lapses? More like he was playing KG who smelled blood and could sense it being one of their last shots and was playing out of his mind defensively.


As a matter of fact, KG locked down every single elite offense he faced in the playoffs from 08-13. Every. Single. One.

The ONE year the Celtics didn’t was 09 when KG was injured. Even in 2011 against Miami they absolutely lost because of offense and really gave Miami trouble defensively.

LeBron hasn’t faced a defense of that caliber in years. Not since 2015 Finals when Iggy was still young-ish, Bogut was on HIS last legs like KG was(it’s a deadly thing when a super talented defensive player gains so much experience over a career but is still healthy enough to attack offenses. Duncan at the end, KG at the end, and Bogut are clear examples).

LeBron did fantastic considering competition and his supporting cast.
Eh, Miami actually did better against Boston offensively than they did vs the Bulls & the Mavs

[999Guy]

Eh, Miami actually did better against Boston offensively than they did vs the Bulls & the Mavs
Well Chicago and Dallas weren’t exactly soft defenses themselves.

[SouBeachTalents]

What years did Kobe score 30 for an entire playoffs run to a chip on only 21.8 fga?
That is some ImKobe level of nitpicking

[Rico2016]

That is some ImKobe level of nitpicking

Okay, 22 fga! Just saying, Kobe could never duplicate LeBron's 2012 run.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe as he wasn't down 3-2 in a series.