Is MJ Hating?

[eliteballer]

And with Michael Jordan turning 50, there's a surge of media around him. After saying in an interview that he'd take Kobe over LeBron (Note: the excerpt excluded the fact that Jordan said "in terms of championships" but whatever), Jordan said in an interview with ESPN the Magazine that he takes umbrage with the idea that modern players could play in the '90s.

Citing tougher competition and different rules, Jordan lists four players who could play in his era and questions even the mighty LeBron.

JORDAN PLAYS his new favorite trivia game, asking which current players could be nearly as successful in his era. "Our era," he says over and over again, calling modern players soft, coddled and ill-prepared for the highest level of the game. This is personal to him, since he'll be compared to this generation, and since he has to build a franchise with this generation's players.

"I'll give you a hint," he says. "I can only come up with four."

He lists them: LeBron, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki.

When someone on TV compares LeBron to Oscar Robertson, Jordan fumes. He rolls his eyes, stretches his neck, frustrated. "It's absolutely … " he says, catching himself. "The point is, no one is critiquing the personnel that he's playing against. Their knowledge of how to play the game … that's not a fair comparison. That's not right … Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21709581/michael-jordan-says-lebron-would-not-be-as-successful-in-his-era

Funny and ironic thing is Oscar and others in his era(IE Wilt) said the same stuff about Jordan's generation...

[G0ATbe]

He's wrong about LeBron not being as successful. All he'd have to do is join the Bulls, and I'm 100% sure he would've done so back then.

[Kblaze8855]

From reading his books Wilt was fairly impressed with the 80s players. He had Barkley and Bird on his all time starting lineup and that was in like 1990.

But to your point....Jordan was his 6th man.

[eliteballer]

From reading his books Wilt was fairly impressed with the 80s players. He had Barkley and Bird on his all time starting lineup and that was in like 1990.

But to your point....Jordan was his 6th man.

Theres some interviews with Wilt on youtube where he does give props but at the same time where he plays them down. He says bigmen were better in his era and then he says "nowadays they're all jumping jacks but they don't have the skill and fundamentals"

Theres also a part where he says he'd be averaging more in the 80's than he did in the 60's(like 70 ppg or something) and how he could average 40 a game RIGHT THEN(in his late 50's I believe)

[JimmyMcAdocious]

http://oi46.tinypic.com/1499fy8.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

I believe you are thinking of his 96 or so interview with Russell and Ahmad Rashad. Or maybe his NBA at 50 interviews which he was always pissed about. He said he gave them 3 hours and answered everything they asked...gave a lot of people props...and watched it and saw they cut to down 3 hours of praise into 20 seconds of out of context bragging.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He probably means he'd like to defend him. LeBron doesn't react well to physicality, even being such a beast. Just because one is built doesn't mean they can actually take punishment. That comes from internal strength, which is ultimately what I think Jordan is talking about.

[B-hoop]

From reading his books Wilt was fairly impressed with the 80s players. He had Barkley and Bird on his all time starting lineup and that was in like 1990.

But to your point....Jordan was his 6th man.

Wilt so salty that people were saying Jordan was Goat.

[Da KO King]

Every old player thinks his competition and "era" was better than it really was.

[JohnFreeman]

Every old player thinks his competition and "era" was better than it really was.
this

[andgar923]

Every old player thinks his competition and "era" was better than it really was.

Except there's players that played in a number of eras.

Players such as GP, Horry, Harper, Shaq, Miller, etc.etc. played in multiple eras. Oh... and even Kobe has stated that today's era is weak and soft.

MJ played in today's era as well (well.. early 2k)

[PJR]

Every old player thinks his competition and "era" was better than it really was.

This. Old geezers love to wax poetic. MJ is no diffrent.

[Micku]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21709581/michael-jordan-says-lebron-would-not-be-as-successful-in-his-era

Funny and ironic thing is Oscar and others in his era(IE Wilt) said the same stuff about Jordan's generation...

Yup. LeBron, D-Wade and others will probably say the same thing about the next era.

Some have merit, some is nostalgia imo.

You still have players like Kobe that played in multiple eras who will say that this era is a bit soft, right? Shaq and Barkley tends to diss today's big men. Not as much as they used to, but they still diss them once in a while. Wilt didn't like that Shaq keeps fouling everybody to get his points. I think he said that he wouldn't do that in his era. He thought that Gheorghe Muresan had more talent than Shaq.

Doc Rivers once said that Rondo wouldn't be as good if he played in his era too.

In the 91 playoffs, I think someone said that MJ wouldn't be as effective in the 70s cuz the type of defense they could play on them. They thought the NBA went soft on the perimeter players in the 80s and early 90s. They claim that you can't play defense on MJ and you can't put your hands on him. Fast forward to now, the 90s players think that the league is too soft on the perimeter players now. You can't play put your hands on star players anymore.

See the trend?

[Blue&Orange]

In the 91 playoffs, I think someone said that MJ wouldn't be as effective in the 70s cuz the type of defense they could play on them. They thought the NBA went soft on the perimeter players in the 80s and early 90s. They claim that you can't play defense on MJ and you can't put your hands on him. Fast forward to now, the 90s players think that the league is too soft on the perimeter players now. You can't play put your hands on star players anymore.

See the trend?
Yes the NBA got softer each decade and became the NBE.



I was doing some research on the greatest defenses over the course of a season and I ran a search on Basketball-Reference for teams with a defensive rating lower than 95. The search returned eleven results, presumably the eleven best defenses ever by this metric. Of the eleven teams, two were Pop/Duncan-era Spurs teams, including the '99 championship team, and the other nine came from the mid-1970s.
Here is a link to the results.
The teams below are the other nine:
'74 Knicks
'74 Bullets
'74 Pistons
'74 Bucks
'74 Bulls
'75 Celtics
'75 Bulls
'75 Bullets
'76 Warriors
Is there an easy explanation for the reason that the 1973-74 season alone produced five historically great defenses? Was there a rule change I don't remember that affected the data or was expansion to blame? Was the league too unathletic as next-generation stars packed the ABA?


This was palming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U


Players today would be getting 30 turnovers a game

[Paul George 24]

This. Old geezers love to wax poetic. MJ is no diffrent.

wait until lebron at 39 if can stills drops 51 :roll:

[3ball]

.
the weaker brand of basketball played today is obvious - although today's game has spacing that generates open shots, it takes time to set up those open shots, so the pace is slower.

also, setting up and maintaining the spacing requires that players remain behind the 3-point line on a perpetual basis, which limits the range and diversity of player movement on the floor - the spacing often looks rigid and marching-band-like with predictable setups and less instinctive player movements.

and of course, the very intent of spacing - to get open shots - ends up commodotizing players skills, since anyone can make open shots, as you can see below: patty mills, to green, to splitter, to diaw.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3b11faa18aba6ff9d5b39c3f8058094c.gif



otoh, in the absence of spacing to generate the type of open shots that anyone can make, previous eras required a higher level of individually-unique skill to make better-contested shots..

also, without having to set up spacing that keeps players behind the 3-point line and restricts player-movement, teams could play much faster, players made quicker decisions, and the game was played more instinctively.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f257682cd9973e020ff4ffacd6166a98.gif

[plowking]

Except there's players that played in a number of eras.

Players such as GP, Horry, Harper, Shaq, Miller, etc.etc. played in multiple eras. Oh... and even Kobe has stated that today's era is weak and soft.

MJ played in today's era as well (well.. early 2k)

Yeah, and how about McGrady, Duncan and Garnett all saying it is harder to score now? All playing over several eras.

Let me guess, you'll ignore that?

[Dragic4Life]

Has-been trying to stay relevant in the Lebron era.:facepalm

Sad.

[3ball]

Yeah, and how about McGrady, Duncan and Garnett all saying it is harder to score now? All playing over several eras.

Let me guess, you'll ignore that?
provide us with those quotes where mcgrady, duncan and garnett said that.

secondly, there are far more guys saying it's easier to score today than harder - we can compare down the line and it's pretty clear and not close.. even the NBA says so.

also, we are never going to hear Jordan get specific and say EXACTLY why today's players would struggle in previous eras - that requires too much minutia for any interview he would give...

but at the end of the day, i think mj is talking about two things: the spacing and the physicality because they are the two biggest differences between the eras - and everything is harder without spacing, especially if you have to deal with physicality as well.

he must think today's brand of basketball is simply easier and requires fewer hard and/or quick decisions (setting up the spacing makes the game slower, so you can react slower and take your time more with decisions today - just a totally different type of basketball than no spacing).
.

[lilteapot]

Did OP JUST find this interview?

[Mr Feeny]

Yeah, and how about McGrady, Duncan and Garnett all saying it is harder to score now? All playing over several eras.

Let me guess, you'll ignore that?

Are we just making up shyt now?

[andgar923]

Yeah, and how about McGrady, Duncan and Garnett all saying it is harder to score now? All playing over several eras.

Let me guess, you'll ignore that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM&channel=LeBronIsTheRealKing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsj_61lhpew&channel=triklops

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

Interesting thing about Artest calling MJ the toughest cover, he never got to play prime MJ. He would have been referring to Wizards MJ.

[andgar923]

Lol at "zone" which has been proven to not be a true zone but something that is used as often as palming is called.

Anywho, KG and TD are bigs, the rules have changed to benefit perimeter players.

Also, I could've sworn Tmac stated past eras were harder.

[navy]

Lol at "zone" which has been proven to not be a true zone but something that is used as often as palming is called.

Anywho, KG and TD are bigs, the rules have changed to benefit perimeter players.

Also, I could've sworn Tmac stated past eras were harder.
Crazy that people dont get it. When people talk about Zone they mean the fact that you no longer have to guard your man if you dont want to. Obviously with the 3 seconds they didnt want to implement a full zone.

[plowking]

Lol at "zone" which has been proven to not be a true zone but something that is used as often as palming is called.

Anywho, KG and TD are bigs, the rules have changed to benefit perimeter players.

Also, I could've sworn Tmac stated past eras were harder.

They are talking about their experiences on the court, not what is regarded as real zone or not, or what basketball purists care to comment on in regard to technicalities. The rule changes, by their own experience, have made it harder to dominate as an individual.

KG was a face up big, who drifted to the perimeter as well.

[3ball]

remember - spacing, defensive 3 seconds, and zone are three different things.

[I<3NBA]

prime Lebron can finish through contact, so i think he'd be fine in MJ's era. he'd be a scarier defender too, able to handcheck opponents.

[3ball]

prime Lebron can finish through contact, so i think he'd be fine in MJ's era. he'd be a scarier defender too, able to handcheck opponents.
he'd have to take a ton of mid-range though, so his efficiency would be down and he'd have to increase his volume to maintain the same production.

but he's not a volume guy, nor does he like shooting mid-range, so he might go the other way and take on a smaller load altogether back then... at a minimum, his efficiency would be materially lower.

lebron would also have to finish ON defenders amongst heavy paint traffic as a standard, just like jordan had to, so his at-rim percentages would also be lower.

i would also guess his assists would be down, since it's easier to pass and get assists WITH spacing, than without... also, with a faster pace, he would be expected to play faster and make quicker decisions.

I would guess his numbers to be 24-26ppg, 6 rebs, 5 assists (i feel like i'm being generous - i haven't considered the higher physicality and hand-checking)... initially, his FG% would be really low, like 40%, maybe less, as he adjusts to no-spacing, faster pace, a heavy does of mid-range, higher physicality, and having to finish amongst more traffic in the paint... eventually his FG% would stabilize at around 46-47%.

[Blue&Orange]

They are talking about Zone defense, it's pretty explicit, they aren't saying it's hard to score today. Dat reading skills. :applause:

KICKS: If you guys could change one rule in the League, what would it be?
KG: No zone.
TD: Yeah, the zone.

How many teams uses zone? How many times do you see it on a NBA game? 3 point shooting kills the zone. Notice McGrady whining how facking Wally szczerbiak can create for himself but him Mcgrady can't? how ridicule is that? Zone sucks for ball dominant players.

That's why Lebron worked his game off the ball, because no only he choked historically, but mavs girlie zone stopped him.


Duncan 00-01 - 22ppg
Duncan 01-02 - 25ppg

Garnett 00-01 - 22.9ppg
Garnett 01-02 - 22.0ppg

McGrady 00-01 - 26.8ppg
McGrady 02-03 - 32.8ppg


Yep it really slowed them down.
It didn't slow them down because of this:



here were a series of rule changes spanning from 1996-2004, but the biggest of them came in 2001. The intention of the changes was to open up the game. These rule changes included taking away the hand check, allowing for zone defense, installing the defensive three-seconds rule and other more minor changes.

All of these changes were intended to allow for a more "open" basketball game that allowed the perimeter player a better opportunity to drive through the lane and make more exciting plays. In effect, the goal of the rules was to make more "Michael Jordans."

Just because a player says it doesn't like sleeved shirt and make it harder to score, it doesn't make it true.


Nice try though.

[La Frescobaldi]

Yes the NBA got softer each decade and became the NBE.



I was doing some research on the greatest defenses over the course of a season and I ran a search on Basketball-Reference for teams with a defensive rating lower than 95. The search returned eleven results, presumably the eleven best defenses ever by this metric. Of the eleven teams, two were Pop/Duncan-era Spurs teams, including the '99 championship team, and the other nine came from the mid-1970s.
Here is a link to the results.
The teams below are the other nine:
'74 Knicks
'74 Bullets
'74 Pistons
'74 Bucks
'74 Bulls
'75 Celtics
'75 Bulls
'75 Bullets
'76 Warriors
Is there an easy explanation for the reason that the 1973-74 season alone produced five historically great defenses? Was there a rule change I don't remember that affected the data or was expansion to blame? Was the league too unathletic as next-generation stars packed the ABA?



This was palming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U
Players today would be getting 30 turnovers a game

The rule changes came in the '73-'74 season in the form of new stats.

The NBA awarded defense for the first time by officially recording steals and blocks. And of course, that immediately brought results that look to be outrageous but it's a natural thing for players to go after records. They all do it.
It was unfair to players within their careers. So Jabbar, who is an all-time blocks leader, like 3rd or 4th..... has a broken career because he was in his 4th year when they started counting. Jerry West had like 4 steals a game that season and he was an old old man in his last year.

from another thread:

Larry O'Brien, the commish of those days said it right on TV during a couple of games in 1974 that they waited to start counting blocks and steals until that season directly as a show of respect for Wilt Chamberlain. He said it would be totally unfair to the Legend - his word - to do it any other way.

The announcers said it a lot that year during tv games, right up to playoffs. Hope that helps with those early questions about why they started counting blocks in '74.

Great thread, G.O.A.T!!

[Dr.J4ever]

Ah nostalgia.

Believing your era was the best is quite normal. We partied harder than you back then. We had more sex and drugs than all of your experiences combined.:lol

There's something about the time when you were peaking as a youth or when you started sowing your oats that makes you believe 20 years later that it was better than it really was.

In some instances it's true, and in many others it's not. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I, for one enjoys the present game, and keep the memories of my youth with 76ers basketball and Julius Erving intact, and all these arguments either way can never ever be proven anyway so why argue?:cheers:

[La Frescobaldi]

Ah nostalgia.

Believing your era was the best is quite normal. We partied harder than you back then. We had more sex and drugs than all of your experiences combined.:lol

There's something about the time when you were peaking as a youth or when you started sowing your oats that makes you believe 20 years later that it was better than it really was.

In some instances it's true, and in many others it's not. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I, for one enjoys the present game, and keep the memories of my youth with 76ers basketball and Julius Erving intact, and all these arguments either way can never ever be proven anyway so why argue?:cheers:

actually that is true though. #1 AIDS changed everything

but also..........

https://40.media.tumblr.com/8e3a3c81994b620d0f2630cfcc6c9232/tumblr_myy77uEUlw1spyba2o3_400.jpg
Just to show the plunge the country took..........
"unlike the previous two incarnations of Woodstock, Woodstock '99 was marred by violence, rape, and fires, bringing the festival to an abrupt end."

https://altafelicidade.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/cal-jam21.jpg
The first 2 Cal Jams were earthquake level events.

Not only the enormous festivals.... but single acts were filling stadiums, not just halls or arenas but stadiums.

parties? '60s was incredible but '70s put all other decades in the shade with great ease. The country was free, so was love, and anything you caught was cured with a pill or a shot.
no comparison at all. aids changed literally everything

[3ball]

reading skills are a virtue.
very true - the rules state in black and white, that defenders in today's game cannot be in the paint unless they are within "armslength" of their man - so this would be 3 feet, since a man's arm is 3 feet long.. so today's players must be within 3 feet of their man to stay in the lane.

in previous eras (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=363929), defenders could stay in the lane if their man was 3 feet outside the lane on either side of the paint - the paint is 16 feet wide, so defenders could literally be 19 feet away from their man, and still remain in the paint.

these are the facts... and this is why today's defenders must tippy-toe to ensure they stay out of the lane whenever they are out of 3-foot armslength reach.

otoh, defenders in previous eras never had to tippy-toe or worry about getting out of the paint like today's players do, because they could be 19 feet away from their man and still stay in the lane - no need to tippy-toe under those circumstances.. :confusedshrug:
.

[La Frescobaldi]

very true - the rules state in black and white, that defenders in today's game cannot be in the paint unless they are within "armslength" of their man - so this would be 3 feet, since a man's arm is 3 feet long.. so today's players must be within 3 feet of their man to stay in the lane.

in previous eras, defenders could stay in the lane if their man was 3 feet outside the lane on either side of the paint (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=363929) - the paint is 16 feet wide, so defenders could literally be 19 feet away from their man, and still remain in the paint.

these are the facts... and this is why today's defenders must tippy-toe to ensure they stay out of the lane whenever they are out of 3-foot armslength reach.

otoh, defenders in previous eras never had to tippy-toe or worry about getting out of the paint like today's players do, because they could be 19 feet away from their man and still stay in the lane - no need to tippy-toe under those circumstances.. :confusedshrug:
.

egad. it's the broken record again.

[Dr.J4ever]

actually that is true though. #1 AIDS changed everything

but also..........

https://40.media.tumblr.com/8e3a3c81994b620d0f2630cfcc6c9232/tumblr_myy77uEUlw1spyba2o3_400.jpg
Just to show the plunge the country took..........
"unlike the previous two incarnations of Woodstock, Woodstock '99 was marred by violence, rape, and fires, bringing the festival to an abrupt end."

https://altafelicidade.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/cal-jam21.jpg
The first 2 Cal Jams were earthquake level events.

Not only the enormous festivals.... but single acts were filling stadiums, not just halls or arenas but stadiums.

parties? '60s was incredible but '70s put all other decades in the shade with great ease. The country was free, so was love, and anything you caught was cured with a pill or a shot.
no comparison at all. aids changed literally everything

:lol The Goat era for parties and it's not even close. :applause:

[3ball]

Robert Parish, Bill Cartwright and Robert Horry talking old school vs. new (funny video):

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/men-action/201406/robert-horry-bill-cartwright-robert-parish-nba-hard-fouls-basketball

"I have to echo what Robert (Horry) and Bill (Cartwright) said. The game is soft. Because when we played, there wasn't any driving down the lane, and i see too much of that today - uncontested layups. When we played you might get one pass and then we laying wood on you after that."



Avery Johnson talking with Stephen A on First Take - they discuss in depth how the NBA changed the rules to allow more spacing and freedom of movement.. they also talk about how the NBA changed the rules to make the NBA softer for the casual fan's aesthetic appeal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=144vX-NohOM

[Straight_Ballin]

Every old player thinks his competition and "era" was better than it really was.

Nope, but every young player likes to over hype his competition and era even though it's so much softer.

[plowking]

Robert Parish, Bill Cartwright and Robert Horry talking old school vs. new (funny video):

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/men-action/201406/robert-horry-bill-cartwright-robert-parish-nba-hard-fouls-basketball

"I have to echo what Robert (Horry) and Bill (Cartwright) said. The game is soft. Because when we played, there wasn't any driving down the lane, and i see too much of that today - uncontested layups. When we played you might get one pass and then we laying wood on you after that."



Avery Johnson talking with Stephen A on First Take - they discuss in depth how the NBA changed the rules to allow more spacing and freedom of movement.. they also talk about how the NBA changed the rules to make the NBA softer for the casual fan's aesthetic appeal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=144vX-NohOM

Ah cool, more players who didn't play in both "brands" of basketball commenting how their era was harder and better.

Yet players who played in both saying otherwise. I wonder who to believe?

[JohnFreeman]

"I have to echo what Robert (Horry) and Bill (Cartwright) said. The game is soft. Because when we played, there wasn't any driving down the lane, and i see too much of that today - uncontested layups. When we played you might get one pass and then we laying wood on you after that."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=144vX-NohOM
This just doesn't happen

[andgar923]

Ah cool, more players who didn't play in both "brands" of basketball commenting how their era was harder and better.

Yet players who played in both saying otherwise. I wonder who to believe?
I posted more players than you did, that played under both eras (some in 3 eras)and they've stated that past eras was better.

:confusedshrug:

Not only that, the link you posted was a joke.

and some of the best defender of this era stated that MJ an OLD MJ way past his prime was tougher than Bron.... go figure