Phil Jackson says Larry Bird was better than Magic Johnson [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

View Full Version : Phil Jackson says Larry Bird was better than Magic Johnson

1987_Lakers

01-04-2015, 02:20 AM

Forget about what he thinks about Kobe vs Jordan, anyone with sense knows Jordan was better. Larry vs Magic is actually a good debate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nClAiN9MXyc
1:06 mark

navy

01-04-2015, 02:23 AM

So?

These are one on one matchups as well.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 02:23 AM

Forget about what he thinks about Kobe vs Jordan, anyone with sense knows Jordan was better. Larry vs Magic is actually a good debate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nClAiN9MXyc
1:06 mark

A 10 second comment in which he says he would "probably" go with Larry.

chocolatethunder

01-04-2015, 02:26 AM

Who cares? To me they are on the same level. I dunno who id pick but I'd be happy with either of them.

1987_Lakers

01-04-2015, 02:26 AM

So?

Think it's interesting hearing who a legendary coach would choose between 2 other legendary players.

gts

01-04-2015, 02:27 AM

gee the guy who never wanted/needed a true point guard in the triangle and only once in all his years had a PG lead the team in assists would avoid one again...

that's not exactly a shocker if you've watched Jackson over the years. Bird would fit perfectly in Jackson's system

kennethgriffin

01-04-2015, 02:28 AM

jordan had the better career. kobe had more talent for the game of basketball.

more footwork
more off hand
more long range
more longevity
more ability with less physical advantages
more work ethic
more passion
more alpha

kobe with bigger hands in a weaker era would be all that and more. who cares about hogdan

as far as bird... hes in the same board as the kobe/mj battle... magic had a better career. bird was a better player

navy

01-04-2015, 02:28 AM

Think it's interesting hearing who a legendary coach would choose between 2 other legendary players.
Im not sure many would take Magic over Bird in a one on one.

navy

01-04-2015, 02:29 AM

T_L_P

01-04-2015, 02:30 AM

1987_Lakers

01-04-2015, 02:31 AM

Smoke117

01-04-2015, 02:36 AM

HOoopCityJones

01-04-2015, 02:38 AM

Harison

01-04-2015, 02:41 AM

So? Everyone back then had Bird over Magic (except Magic fans), its nothing new.

PejaTheSerbSnip

01-04-2015, 05:17 AM

more footwork

Jordan's footwork is criminally underrated. There was a minimalist grace to how Jordan played. No wasted motion. That's why he so rarely dribbled away possessions and could get off a good shot whenever he wanted.

more off hand

Sure, I don't vehemently dispute that.

more long range

Hardly, and not when it counted (the finals). MJ never made the 3pt shot a huge part of his game. This is well-documented.

Yet when he wanted to he could destroy you with the 3ball. See: '91-'93 finals. Combined, what, 42% from three?

Also, why is range just the long ball?

Jordan was better from the mid-range and a better long-2 shooter. Hell, I believe Jordan at 39 and 40 shot a higher percentage from 10-16 and 16-23 ft than Kobe at 24 and 25. That's CRAZY. This is despite LIVING from there at that point in his career.

more longevity

Malone had more longevity than MJ too.

more ability with less physical advantages

Jordan had a better bball I.Q, infinitely better and smarter shot selection, was a better and less erratic passer, and could score within the flow of the offense better. AT WORST he's Kobe's equal as a shooter.

He was a better slasher, more deft finisher, had better body control. Rebounded better. Smarter defensive player too.

I fail to see how Kobe has more ability, OR is more skilled. And, hell, WHY is raw athleticism not taken into account? You don't think Jordan's athleticism sort of bolsters his greatness? Why disregard it to make Kobe look better?

And Kobe's game is heavily modeled after MJ, which makes his case for being greater than MJ even more dubious.

more work ethic

Could go either way, but I won't deny this.

more passion

This is getting arbitrary now, lol.

more alpha

Made-up criterion.

6 finals MVPs = as "alpha" as it gets. 33.4 PPG in the playoffs = alpha. Was never the second best player on his team = alpha. Was the best player on a team of hall of famers (dream team) = alpha. Was never taken to a game 7 in the finals = alpha. Often the best player on the floor on BOTH sides of the ball + alpha.

Mad respect for Kobe, top 10 all time, but his case over MJ doesn't pass the smell test, never has and never will.

The "ticks" you usually hear in Kobe's favour simply don't matter that much. Slightly better 3 point shooter? Slightly better handle (if even) ?

Any person not blinded by irrationality would pick Jordan over Kobe to start their team and wouldn't spend a millisecond thinking about it.

SamuraiSWISH

01-04-2015, 05:24 AM

Jordan > Kobe
Bird > Magic
LeBron > Durant
Shaq > D12

My opinions, and basically Phil's as well.

3ball

01-04-2015, 05:43 AM

more off hand

do you mean shooting with his left?.. i mean, i'm speechless.. you should watch this kenneth... seriously - take 12 min out of your day..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vBc395dSg4

on a scale of 1-10, jordan's a 10 finishing with his left, and kobe is no higher than a 6... seriously, jordan had way better hands.. it's not close really.

if you mean dribbling with his left, then that's more of a debate, but again - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5btsDbkBonA

1987_Lakers

01-04-2015, 05:45 AM

Of course, people hijack my thread and change it to Jordan vs Kobe. Typical ISH.

plowking

01-04-2015, 05:50 AM

Bird better than Magic? Nothing new.

Every player that played then seems to agree as well. As well as public perception while they played. Magic only gained ground after both their careers were done and he stayed in the spotlight while Bird was the more private of the two.

Payton agreed too by the looks of things.

PejaTheSerbSnip

01-04-2015, 05:52 AM

do you mean shooting with his left?.. i mean, i'm speechless.. you should watch this kenneth... seriously - take 12 min out of your day..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vBc395dSg4

on a scale of 1-10, jordan's a 10 finishing with his left, and kobe is no higher than a 6... seriously, jordan had way better hands.. it's not close really.

if you mean dribbling with his left, then that's more of a debate, but again - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5btsDbkBonA

I took him to mean that too because Jordan was unbelievable at finishing with his left.

But even still, let's give Kobe these finer points just to appease Kenneth -- what point is he trying to convey? That if you look harder enough, you can find things that Kobe was better at, by infinitesimally small margins?

OK, fine. But Jordan is still so much better as a basketball player that it renders it inconsequential and the comparison doesn't warrant serious debate.

SamuraiSWISH

01-04-2015, 05:55 AM

PejaTheSerbSnip

01-04-2015, 06:01 AM

The only thing Kobe has on Mike is range on his 3-ball. That is literally it. Everything else is MJ remix. Sans the athleticism, defense, IQ, off the ball skills and leadership. Someone claiming otherwise is lying through their teeth, or never saw Jordan play.

Yup, and even then, the 3-ball simply wasn't incorporated into his arsenal. It gained prominence league-wide as an offensive weapon after he hit his stride and he never nurtured that part of his game.

BUT -- if you sleep on him from long-range, he burned you on the big stage in a way Kobe NEVER did. He basically drilled those 6 threes in the '92 finals on sheer will alone, because the media dared to question his capacity to shoot the 3 ball.

He also burned Don Nelson the time he asked his team to back off MJ from the perimeter, and he lit them up for 6 threes, all the while laughing at them for giving him that much breathing room.

SamuraiSWISH

01-04-2015, 06:07 AM

Yup, and even then, the 3-ball simply wasn't incorporated into his arsenal. It gained prominence league-wide as an offensive weapon after he hit his stride and he never nurtured that part of his game.

BUT -- if you sleep on him from long-range, he burned you on the big stage in a way Kobe NEVER did. He basically drilled those 6 threes in the '92 finals on sheer will alone, because the media dared to question his capacity to shoot the 3 ball.

He also burned Don Nelson the time he asked his team to back off MJ from the perimeter, and he lit them up for 6 threes, all the while laughing at them for giving him that much breathing room.
http://i54.tinypic.com/fux8nd.jpg

CJ Mustard

01-04-2015, 06:28 AM

So? Everyone back then had Bird over Magic (except Magic fans), its nothing new.
Yup. Revisionist history and longevity makes it seem like Magic was as good or better. The fact is, no version of Magic was ****ing with Bird in his prime.

28/10/7 on 50/40/90 between 84-88, with 2 championships, 2 Finals MVPs, and three league MVPs. Truly one of the most dominant primes ever.

Straight_Ballin

01-04-2015, 06:29 AM

Jordan > Kobe
Bird > Magic
LeBron > Durant
Shaq > D12

My opinions, and basically Phil's as well.

Why would this ever be questioned. It's spot on.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 01:01 PM

Yup. Revisionist history and longevity makes it seem like Magic was as good or better. The fact is, no version of Magic was ****ing with Bird in his prime.

28/10/7 on 50/40/90 between 84-88, with 2 championships, 2 Finals MVPs, and three league MVPs. Truly one of the most dominant primes ever.

Hmmm...

H2H...Magic.

Titles...Magic.

FMVPs...Magic.

Post-seasons:

Bird: '81, '84, '86.

Magic: '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, ... '89, '90, '91.

BTW...let's compare AGES:

Age 23:

Magic: 3 Finals, 2 Rings, 2 FMVPs.
Bird: Zero, Zero, and Zero.

Age 24:

Magic: 4 Finals, 2 rings, 2 MVPs.
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVP

Age 25:

Magic: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVPs

Age 26:

Magic: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVPs

Age 27:

Magic: 6 Finals, 4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Bird: 2 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, 1 MVP

Ag 28:

Magic: 7 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Bird: 3 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs

Age 29:

Magic: 8 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs
Bird: 4 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Age 30:

Magic: 8 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs
Bird: 5 Finals 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Age 31:

Magic: 9 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs
Bird: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Bird would play until age 35:

5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

CJ Mustard

01-04-2015, 01:09 PM

Hmmm...

H2H...Magic.

Titles...Magic.

FMVPs...Magic.

Post-seasons:

Bird: '81, '84, '86.

Magic: '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, ... '89, '90, '91.

BTW...let's compare AGES:

Age 23:

Magic: 3 Finals, 2 Rings, 2 FMVPs.
Bird: Zero, Zero, and Zero.

Age 24:

Magic: 4 Finals, 2 rings, 2 MVPs.
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVP

Age 25:

Magic: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVPs

Age 26:

Magic: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVPs

Age 27:

Magic: 6 Finals, 4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Bird: 2 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, 1 MVP

Ag 28:

Magic: 7 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Bird: 3 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs

Age 29:

Magic: 8 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs
Bird: 4 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Age 30:

Magic: 8 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs
Bird: 5 Finals 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Age 31:

Magic: 9 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs
Bird: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Bird would play until age 35:

5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

You're really listing a bunch of team accomplishments to prove that the guy who played with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is better than Larry Bird? Not to mention all the injuries the Celtics dealt with during that run.

Cali Syndicate

01-04-2015, 01:15 PM

Bird > Magic

Jordan >> Kobe

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 01:35 PM

You're really listing a bunch of team accomplishments to prove that the guy who played with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is better than Larry Bird? Not to mention all the injuries the Celtics dealt with during that run.

Oh, the "injury excuses" again.

Please tell me what an "injured" McHale averaged in his '86-87 season, then his playoffs, and then his Finals. CAREER highs.

As for KAJ...Magic carried his team to a ROUT of the Sixers in the clinching game six of the '80 Finals...withOUT Kareem. In the '82 Finals, bench-player Bob McAdoo basically matched Kareem's numbers, and in considerably less minutes. In the '87 post-season, and Finals, KAJ was nothing more than a "third-wheel" whose minutes could have easily been absorbed by Thompson and Green. In the '88 Finals, the Lakers won a title DESPITE Kareem (who was just putrid in that series, and was even more awful in the game seven.)

Hell, after KAJ retired, Magic led the Lakers to records of 62-17 and 57-22.

La Frescobaldi

01-04-2015, 01:49 PM

A 10 second comment in which he says he would "probably" go with Larry.

Bird was better until he hurt his back, Laz. Not that close.

You know it, you knew it then, I know it, I knew it then, everybody knows it now and everybody knew it then. Not that close.

Lazer = LAkers ZtannER :lol

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 01:52 PM

Bird was better until he hurt his back, Laz. Not that close.

You know it, you knew it then, I know it, I knew it then, everybody knows it now and everybody knew it then. Not that close.

Lazer = LAkers ZtannER :lol

Nope. Magic was better earlier in their careers, and much better later in their careers. Bird had a three-year run in the middle of the 80's in which he was better.

And again, if you compare AGES, Magic in a LANDSLIDE.

And in terms of CAREER resumes...Magic...and it is "not that close."

La Frescobaldi

01-04-2015, 02:05 PM

Nope. Magic was better earlier in their careers, and much better later in their careers. Bird had a three-year run in the middle of the 80's in which he was better.

And again, if you compare AGES, Magic in a LANDSLIDE.

And in terms of CAREER resumes...Magic...and it is "not that close."

nah man he never had that back damage. it's simple. you know i was a Showtime guy too but it wasn't Magic til '87

magnax1

01-04-2015, 02:30 PM

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 02:32 PM

nah man he never had that back damage. it's simple. you know i was a Showtime guy too but it wasn't Magic til '87

You could make an argument that Bird had the greatest regular seasons of his career in both the '86-87 and '87-88 seasons, and even his '87 post-season was among his best (career high playoff ppg of 27.0 ppg)...

...and yet, Magic was CLEARLY the better player in both years (and he was much more dominant in the '87 Finals against Bird.)

So, I would argue that a PEAK Magic was better than a PEAK Bird. How about you?

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 02:36 PM

Bird was better, and it wasn't all that close. Magic gets his recognition for playing with all star after all star. McAdoo, Kareem, Wilkes, Worthy, Cooper, Nixon, Scott, Thompson, Green, Divac, Wooldridge. The list is just insane and not comparable to any other player in the history of the league. He deserves his own credit as an all time great, but the comparison comes from his team success which is derived from coming to a team with the best player in the league, stacking all star caliber players onto his team every year, and then only having three teams during the whole decade on a competitive level talent wise.
In terms of actual impact, Bird is really not comparable to more then 6 or so other players. He's just fantastically well rounded and was a truly dominant scorer.

Yeah...let's forget that Bird joined a cast of HOFers, and then throughout the 80's he played alongside THREE to FOUR other HOF players.

Or that Magic, withOUT Kareem, and a declining Worthy and Scott, and in his last full season, carried a team to the Finals. Or that in his last two seasons without KAJ, he carried teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22.

HomieWeMajor

01-04-2015, 02:39 PM

You could go either way.
Great move by Stern exploiting race relations in the US by promoting this rivalry. :applause:
Back then if you were white you picked Bird and if you were black you picked Magic.

gts

01-04-2015, 02:41 PM

Bird was better, and it wasn't all that close. :facepalm

literally stopped reading right there

ProfessorMurder

01-04-2015, 02:42 PM

:facepalm

literally stopped reading right there

Good, you got the point then. Bird > Magic.

magnax1

01-04-2015, 02:45 PM

Yeah...let's forget that Bird joined a cast of HOFers, and then throughout the 80's he played alongside THREE to FOUR other HOF players.
Bird's team before his first year in Boston won 29 games. 61 after he was drafted. Magic's won 47 and made it to the second round on one of Kareem's weakest seasons until the mid 80s before he came there.
No one's denying Bird had a good team. It is however, not closely comparable to what Magic was given except maybe in the very middle of their careers.

Or that Magic, withOUT Kareem, and a declining Worthy and Scott, and in his last full season, carried a team to the Finals. Or that in his last two seasons without KAJ, he carried teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22.
A declining worthy was still their leading scorer on around 50% FG% in an offense that was altogether poorly suited to his strengths. That team also included Scott, Sam Perkins, Divac, and Terry Teagle. "Carried" my ass. His 90 team was even better than that too.

magnax1

01-04-2015, 02:46 PM

Good, you got the point then. Bird > Magic.
This is the first time going around the NBA forum and responding to this stuff in ages.
:lol

hiphopfan777

01-04-2015, 02:47 PM

Forget about what he thinks about Kobe vs Jordan, anyone with sense knows Jordan was better. Larry vs Magic is actually a good debate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nClAiN9MXyc
1:06 mark
Kobe is better than jordan. Has jordan ever score 81 points.

GimmeThat

01-04-2015, 02:51 PM

Id say magic fed off of players instinct, where as perhaps larry more off of players guts and drive.

One is more on the field, interaction oriented. While perhaps the other, team sports/management in general.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 02:54 PM

Oh, the "injury excuses" again.

Please tell me what an "injured" McHale averaged in his '86-87 season, then his playoffs, and then his Finals. CAREER highs.

As for KAJ...Magic carried his team to a ROUT of the Sixers in the clinching game six of the '80 Finals...withOUT Kareem. In the '82 Finals, bench-player Bob McAdoo basically matched Kareem's numbers, and in considerably less minutes. In the '87 post-season, and Finals, KAJ was nothing more than a "third-wheel" whose minutes could have easily been absorbed by Thompson and Green. In the '88 Finals, the Lakers won a title DESPITE Kareem (who was just putrid in that series, and was even more awful in the game seven.)

Hell, after KAJ retired, Magic led the Lakers to records of 62-17 and 57-22.

And won fek all. Thanks for playing, you utter clueless bellend.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 03:41 PM

And won fek all. Thanks for playing, you utter clueless bellend.

Once again...not ONE shred of an argument.

"Clueless"...

:facepalm

Pointguard

01-04-2015, 03:49 PM

Magic played a more Zen game than any player ever - Magic played an intuitive game. But on the same token Bird is much better for a triangle offense.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 03:57 PM

Once again...not ONE shred of an argument.

"Clueless"...

:facepalm

Here's your argument. Arguing Magic > Kareem because he lead them to a 57 win season after Kareem retired.

What did he win those years?
Zilch ofcourse. Fek all.
Right then.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 04:02 PM

Here's your argument. Arguing Magic > Kareem because he lead them to a 57 win season after Kareem retired.

What did he win those years?
Zilch ofcourse. Fek all.
Right then.

Actually it was a 62-17 record (63-19), and then a 57-22 record (58-24), and BTW, they knocked off a heavily-favored 63-19 Trailblazer team to get to the Finals, with a injury-riddled and rapidly declining team.

WithOUT Kareem?

Magic led them to a clinching title game rout of the Sixers in '80.

With a "third-wheel" Kareem...

Magic led them to a title in '87.

With a team that had McAdoo putting up KAJ numbers in the Finals...

Magic led them to a title in '82.

With a SHELL of a Kareem...(they would have been better off with Carrot-Top at center in that Finals)

Magic led them to a title in '88.

Next...

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:04 PM

Actually it was a 62-17 record (63-19), and then a 57-22 record (58-24), and BTW, they knocked off a heavily-favored 63-19 Trailblazer team to get to the Finals, with a injury-riddled and rapidly declining team.

WithOUT Kareem?

Magic led them to a clinching title game rout of the Sixers in '80.

With a "third-wheel" Kareem...

Magic led them to a title in '87.

With a team that had McAdoo putting up KAJ numbers in the Finals...

Magic led them to a title in '82.

With a SHELL of a Kareem...(they would have been better off with Carrot-Top at center in that Finals)

Magic led them to a title in '88.

Next...

In other words..In the 2 seasons after Kareem retired, Magic won fek all. Exactly my point.

Next

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 04:12 PM

In other words..In the 2 seasons after Kareem retired, Magic won fek all. Exactly my point.

Next

And a point destroyed previously...

but nice try.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:14 PM

And a point destroyed previously...

but nice try.
Has it now?
Why post the useless drivel that you did?

Nice try.
Won fek all after Kareem retired. And you can't dispute that:no:

Kareem> Wilt
And you trying to undermine him just makes you a laughing stock on this board.

AlphaWolf24

01-04-2015, 04:19 PM

Pure Basketball skill....

Kobe>MJ - as Phil Jackson says https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 04:21 PM

Has it now?
Why post the useless drivel that you did?

Nice try.
Won fek all after Kareem retired. And you can't dispute that:no:

Kareem> Wilt
And you trying to undermine him just makes you a laughing stock on this board.

Kareem in his FOUR Laker seasons pre-MAGIC...

One trip to the WCF's, where they were swept. One trip to the semi's, where they were routed by a team with one borderline HOF player. A first round loss to a team with one borderline HOF player. And a 40-42 season which resulted in missing the playoffs.

Magic's Lakers AFTER Kareem...

63-19, and 58-24, and a trip to yet another Finals.

In between...all Magic.

And give Wilt TEN years with a prime Magic... >>>>>> Kareem.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:23 PM

Kareem in his FOUR Laker seasons pre-MAGIC...

One trip to the WCF's, where they were swept. One trip to the semi's, where they were routed by a team with one borderline HOF player. A first round loss to a team with one borderline HOF player. And a 40-42 season which resulted in missing the playoffs.

Magic's Lakers AFTER Kareem...

63-19, and 58-24, and a trip to yet another Finals.

In between...all Magic.

And give Wilt TEN years with a prime Magic... >>>>>> Kareem.

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. I pointed out that he won fek all after the big fella left.

End of argument.
Next

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 04:24 PM

Has it now?
Why post the useless drivel that you did?

Nice try.
Won fek all after Kareem retired. And you can't dispute that:no:

Kareem> Wilt
And you trying to undermine him just makes you a laughing stock on this board.

WON a title in a Finals in which Kareem averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414. And in game seven of that series... KAJ hung a game of 4 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs. His replacement, Mychal Thompson put up 12 points on 6-10 shooting, with 4 rebounds in 22 minutes, BTW.

Again, put Betty White at center on that '88 team, and they would still have won a title.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:27 PM

WON a title in a Finals in which Kareem averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414. And in game seven of that series... KAJ hung a game of 4 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs. His replacement, Mychel Thompson put up 12 points on 6-10 shooting, with 4 rebounds in 22 minutes, BTW.

Again, put Betty White at center on that '88 team, and they would still have won a title.

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. Ofcourse he won fek all, as I pointed out about a dozen times.

End of argument.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 04:32 PM

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. Ofcourse he won fek all, as I pointed out about a dozen times.

End of argument.

What's your definition of "accomplished?"

He WON at a FAR higher Winning percentage, without KAJ, than KAJ did without Magic in his career.

And again, he won a title in '88 DESPITE Kareem. And he likely would have won another in '87 without Kareem, as well.

And we KNOW that he was good enough to carry a team to a title-clinching rout, on the road, and in a game in which KAJ was watching from his couch.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 04:36 PM

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. I pointed out that he won fek all after the big fella left.

End of argument.
Next

Pre-Magic...Kareem's Lakers... 47-35, and routed in second round of playoffs.

WITH Magic... dominating title in his year, and in which he is the FMVP.
SEVEN more trips to the Finals, and FOUR more titles.

Post-KAJ... records of 63-19 and 58-24, and yet another trip to the Finals (with an injury-riddled team)...

Post-Magic... records of 43-39 and then 39-43.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:38 PM

Pre-Magic...Kareem's Lakers... 47-35, and routed in second round of playoffs.

WITH Magic... dominating title in his year, and in which he is the FMVP.
SEVEN more trips to the Finals, and FOUR more titles.

Post-KAJ... records of 63-19 and 58-24, and yet another trip to the Finals (with an injury-riddled team)...

Post-Magic... records of 43-39 and then 39-43.

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. Ofcourse he won fek all, as I pointed out about a dozen times.

End of argument.

Repeat ad infinitum.

AlphaWolf24

01-04-2015, 04:41 PM

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. Ofcourse he won fek all, as I pointed out about a dozen times.

End of argument.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Magic never won a title after Kareem retired....

another retard who never watched basketball.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:44 PM

Magic never won a title after Kareem retired....

another retard who never watched basketball.

You can't read?

AlphaWolf24

01-04-2015, 04:48 PM

You can't read?

Ofcourse he won

No he didn't....Lost to the Suns...then Lost to the Bull's

duh!

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 04:49 PM

No he didn't....Lost to the Suns...then Lost to the Bull's

duh!

Who are you quoting? I didn't say that:biggums:

AlphaWolf24

01-04-2015, 04:54 PM

Maybe Phil picked Bird because Bird only has 1 sidekick ring?:confusedshrug:

navy

01-04-2015, 04:56 PM

Maybe Phil picked Bird because Bird only has 1 sidekick ring?:confusedshrug:
They were one on one matchups. Not about better players/careers.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 05:13 PM

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. Ofcourse he won fek all, as I pointed out about a dozen times.

End of argument.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Using that ridiculous argument...

MJ without Pippen...career LOSER. Couldn't even get past the first round, and a 1-9 playoff record. Pippen without MJ, at least he had multiple winning seasons, including a 55-27 season right in the middle of the two "three-peats."

Bird without McHale...ZERO titles...hell ZERO FINALS, and a 1-4 record in his conference Finals.

Magic without Kareem... 62-17 and 57-22, and a trip to the Finals.

Mr Feeny

01-04-2015, 06:06 PM

Using that ridiculous argument...

MJ without Pippen...career LOSER. Couldn't even get past the first round, and a 1-9 playoff record. Pippen without MJ, at least he had multiple winning seasons, including a 55-27 season right in the middle of the two "three-peats."

Bird without McHale...ZERO titles...hell ZERO FINALS, and a 1-4 record in his conference Finals.

Magic without Kareem... 62-17 and 57-22, and a trip to the Finals.

nally Posted by*Mr Feeny

You were raving about what Magic accomplished after Kareem retired. Ofcourse he won fek all, as I pointed out about a dozen times.

End of argument.

eliteballer

01-04-2015, 06:14 PM

lol...

Maybe phil should look at their head to head numbers in the finals...

Despite Magic being 3 years younger than Peak Bird.

SamuraiSWISH

01-04-2015, 06:44 PM

Kobe is better than jordan. Has jordan ever score 81 points.
Oh, so David Robinson > MJ too? Has Kobe ever scored more than one 50 point game in the playoffs? You know, against actual quality competition ... and not meaningless games, against an atrocious team / defense?

SHAQisGOAT

01-04-2015, 06:47 PM

Yeah...let's forget that Bird joined a cast of HOFers, and then throughout the 80's he played alongside THREE to FOUR other HOF players.

Or that Magic, withOUT Kareem, and a declining Worthy and Scott, and in his last full season, carried a team to the Finals. Or that in his last two seasons without KAJ, he carried teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22.

:biggums:

:facepalm

Joined a cast of HoF'ers? That's the best you can do? Celtics were 29-53 just before Bird got there, 2nd worst record in the league, attendances at an all-time low, internal problems (Red almost gone)...
WTF are you talking about here?! :wtf: I swear you're getting dumber by the minute.

Bird "made" most names that people love to throw around...

What HoF'ers you wanna talk about here?

-Cowens was not close to his best in the 1 season he played alongside Bird, retired (for 2 years) right after;
-Tiny with Boston was old, playing after a tore achilles and a ruptured one, even still thinking he could do the same things as before, which was detrimental to his game/the team;
-Pistol Pete was a COMPLETE shell in the small time he played with Larry;
-Parish was already 27 when he joined the Celtics, not even viewed as all that... If he stayed in GS he wouldn't be a HoF'er by now;
-DJ was past his peak when he joined the C's, overweight and viewed somewhat as a "cancer" by former coaches/GM's (proved them wrong though), wouldn't be so close to get in the HoF (if he ever did) if he didn't end up in Boston;
-Walton was still serviceable and pretty impactful with the C's but not even close to his top form, only played there for a season also;
-McHale was a rookie in 1981, only really coming into his own in 1984 or so, not the same since the 1987 post-season too due to playing with a broken foot (go only look at stats though smh)... Only player who played a considerable amount of time alongside Bird that I can see making the HoF "on his own", though.

Shit, when Larry got there they improved by 32W, having the best record and making the ECF, with basically the same core roster as in the previous year and a new coach. No Parish or McHale yet, for that matter.
^And I'm not even scratching the surface there, get real...

You're getting owned all over this thread though, as usual... Same goes for that recent thread you made about Magic...

Bird was better until he hurt his back, Laz. Not that close.

You know it, you knew it then, I know it, I knew it then, everybody knows it now and everybody knew it then. Not that close.

Lazer = LAkers ZtannER :lol

:applause:

SHAQisGOAT

01-04-2015, 06:51 PM

Using that ridiculous argument...

MJ without Pippen...career LOSER. Couldn't even get past the first round, and a 1-9 playoff record. Pippen without MJ, at least he had multiple winning seasons, including a 55-27 season right in the middle of the two "three-peats."

Bird without McHale...ZERO titles...hell ZERO FINALS, and a 1-4 record in his conference Finals.

Magic without Kareem... 62-17 and 57-22, and a trip to the Finals.

:rolleyes:

Great argument there...

How about Kareem without/before Magic? 5 MVP's, 1 title, 1 FMVP, so on...

McHale without Bird? Huh...

:lol

Round Mound

01-04-2015, 07:12 PM

Phil says "a better 1 on 1 player" not "better player".

Despite that. Larry was better from 79 to 87. Magic from 87 to 91.

SHAQisGOAT

01-04-2015, 07:39 PM

Phil says "a better 1 on 1 player" not "better player".

Despite that. Larry was better from 79 to 87. Magic from 87 to 91.

True.

After 1988 Bird was a shell due to injuries, though... Like you could also say Bird was better in 1991-92...

Also, Larry's peak > Magic's peak.

And Bird probably should've been MVP in 1988 (not Jordan), just before "breaking down" in the Playoffs.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 08:04 PM

Bird's shooting in his post-seasons:

80 EDF's 48-109 .440
81 Finals 39-93 .419
82 EDF's 54-131 .412

83 1st round 23-57 .404
83 2nd round 26-59 .441

84 Finals 62-128 .484

85 2nd round 65-145 .448
85 ECF's 39-93 .419
85 Finals 53-118 .449

86 Finals 53-110 .482

87 Finals 53-119 .449

88 EDF's 40-114 .351

81 Finals

9-17
8-18
3-11
3-11
5-16
11-20

84 Finals

7-17
8-22
9-16
9-24
15-20
8-11
6-18

85 Finals

8-14
9-21
8-21
8-16
8-17
12-29

86 Finals

8-18
12-19
10-26
9-17
6-13
8-17

87 Finals

14-25
9-17
10-24
7-19
7-18
6-16

31 games
11 50% or better
11 39% or worse 2 of 29% or worse

And this from Colts18...

Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.

So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Bird was SLIGHTLY better than Magic from '84 to '86. (Magic was better in their '85 Finals H2H.)

Magic was certainly FAR better in the post-season from '80 to '83.

And Magic was CLEARLY better than Bird from '87 on.

pauk

01-04-2015, 08:05 PM

Individually, like if it was a one on one game, Magic would be annihilated.... but in a team game their impact was similar.

LAZERUSS

01-04-2015, 08:08 PM

And one more time...

Hmmm...

H2H...Magic.

Titles...Magic.

FMVPs...Magic.

Post-seasons:

Bird: '81, '84, '86.

Magic: '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, ... '89, '90, '91.

BTW...let's compare AGES:

Age 23:

Magic: 3 Finals, 2 Rings, 2 FMVPs.
Bird: Zero, Zero, and Zero.

Age 24:

Magic: 4 Finals, 2 rings, 2 MVPs.
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVP

Age 25:

Magic: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVPs

Age 26:

Magic: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs
Bird: 1 Final, 1 ring, 0 FMVPs

Age 27:

Magic: 6 Finals, 4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Bird: 2 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, 1 MVP

Ag 28:

Magic: 7 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Bird: 3 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs

Age 29:

Magic: 8 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs
Bird: 4 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Age 30:

Magic: 8 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs
Bird: 5 Finals 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Age 31:

Magic: 9 Finals, 5 rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs
Bird: 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Bird would play until age 35:

5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs

Round Mound

01-04-2015, 10:56 PM

True.

After 1988 Bird was a shell due to injuries, though... Like you could also say Bird was better in 1991-92...

Also, Larry's peak > Magic's peak.

And Bird probably should've been MVP in 1988 (not Jordan), just before "breaking down" in the Playoffs.

:applause: Agree with everything but i think Jordan still should have won in 88 cause he had a way weaker team and still made the play-offs. I do agree with what you say in the Larry vs Magic debate though.

Round Mound

01-04-2015, 10:57 PM

And one more time...

Magic Did However Have A Top 3 Player of All Time In Kareem: Who Was The Still The Best Player For The Lakers From 79-85.

eliteballer

01-04-2015, 10:58 PM

Magic REPEATEDLY AND CLEARLY outproduced Bird in their head to head matchups in the Finals...despite being 3 years younger than Peak Bird.

Yall might as well put D-Rob above Hakeem.

Round Mound

01-04-2015, 11:03 PM

Magic REPEATEDLY AND CLEARLY outproduced Bird in their head to head matchups in the Finals...despite being 3 years younger than Peak Bird.

Yall might as well put D-Rob above Hakeem.

The play different positions. And lets remember that Kareem was the captain and best player for the Lakers from 79-85.

Hakeem > D-Rob IMO.

plowking

01-04-2015, 11:23 PM

Magic only really has 4 titles, since we know the 88 finals was rigged. So scrap that one off his accomplishments list.

SHAQisGOAT

01-05-2015, 12:00 AM

:applause: Agree with everything but i think Jordan still should have won in 88 cause he had a way weaker team and still made the play-offs. I do agree with what you say in the Larry vs Magic debate though.

I don't know...

Bird averaged (rounding up) 30/9/6/2/1 with less than 3 TO's on 53/41/92 (highest PPG on the 50/40/90 club) while leading the Celtics to 57W's (2nd best record in the L).

McHale just couldn't be the same after playing through a broken foot... He could still be great and play really well but not quite at the same level and not as much - valuable time - as before (only played 64 games that season, for example).
DJ just wasn't the player he previously was, simple as that, he was almost retired.
Parish was mr consistency/longevity, but gotta realize he was also pushing 34.
Ainge was having his best years but their bench just sucked during those days, bunch of old, broken down players, dudes past their primes, plenty of journeymen, Reggie Lewis was a rookie...

Not going against Jordan though, he was still a beast and very deserving, I just think Bird deserved it a tad bit more.

If it happened in recent times, Bird would've most likely walked way with that MVP though.

Shame that Larry's body just ("finally") broke down after that gruelsome series against the Hawks, and that duel with Dominique.

Round Mound

01-05-2015, 12:42 AM

I don't know...

Bird averaged (rounding up) 30/9/6/2/1 with less than 3 TO's on 53/41/92 (highest PPG on the 50/40/90 club) while leading the Celtics to 57W's (2nd best record in the L).

McHale just couldn't be the same after playing through a broken foot... He could still be great and play really well but not quite at the same level and not as much - valuable time - as before (only played 64 games that season, for example).
DJ just wasn't the player he previously was, simple as that, he was almost retired.
Parish was mr consistency/longevity, but gotta realize he was also pushing 34.
Ainge was having his best years but their bench just sucked during those days, bunch of old, broken down players, dudes past their primes, plenty of journeymen, Reggie Lewis was a rookie...

Not going against Jordan though, he was still a beast and very deserving, I just think Bird deserved it a tad bit more.

If it happened in recent times, Bird would've most likely walked way with that MVP though.

Shame that Larry's body just ("finally") broke down after that gruelsome series against the Hawks, and that duel with Dominique.

Could go either way but Jordan`s level of teamates was way weaker still (btw and i am not a Jordan fan and Larry is my 2nd favorite player). Larry had his last great year though. Even after with those injuries he still was great but not the same as he was from 79-88. Great post.

masonanddixon

01-05-2015, 01:00 AM

Everyone knows Bird was better. it's just recently and with social media and Millenials that Magic has become better because he's black.

masonanddixon

01-05-2015, 01:04 AM

Magic only really has 4 titles, since we know the 88 finals was rigged. So scrap that one off his accomplishments list.

were you even alive in 1988, son?

ThatCoolKid

01-05-2015, 01:07 AM

Everyone knows Bird was better. it's just recently and with social media and Millenials that Magic has become better because he's black.

You are actually racist, aren't you? Magic has the far better resume, which is what stands the test of time as people forget what the eye test told them. It's not because he's black.

masonanddixon

01-05-2015, 01:22 AM

You are actually racist, aren't you? Magic has the far better resume, which is what stands the test of time as people forget what the eye test told them. It's not because he's black.

Not racist one bit, I am a realist. Literally everyone at the time was of the belief that Bird was the better player.

Now suddenly Magic has become better in retrospect, in this time of rampant far left liberalism and self-loathing white hatred.

knicksman

01-05-2015, 01:33 AM

Bird is better as a player but magic was a more teamplayer thus producing more rings. Its the same reason why bran is a loser despite his idiot stans comparing him to jordan

masonanddixon

01-05-2015, 02:23 AM

Bird is better as a player but magic was a more teamplayer thus producing more rings. Its the same reason why bran is a loser despite his idiot stans comparing him to jordan

I want to know how many people on this board even watched them.

I am 32 and I barely remember Magic and Bird and even then I was about 10 years old and had no conception of the sport.

lebron fans (who are generally teenagers and Millenials) weren't even alive when MJ was around, so I don't understand how their opinion means anything.

houston

01-05-2015, 02:50 AM

magic better than bird

Psileas

01-05-2015, 09:15 AM

Phil says "a better 1 on 1 player" not "better player".

Despite that. Larry was better from 79 to 87. Magic from 87 to 91.

Ehm, no, he was definitely not better in 1987. Comparable, but not better. Magic was #1 in the league that season.

After 1988 Bird was a shell due to injuries, though... Like you could also say Bird was better in 1991-92...

Not sure what you mean by the bolded. Retired or not, Magic would obviously be better than Bird in 1992.
And in 1996, I would similarly add. :D

Pointguard

01-05-2015, 09:26 AM

JohnnySic

01-05-2015, 10:08 AM

I want to know how many people on this board even watched them.

I am 32 and I barely remember Magic and Bird and even then I was about 10 years old and had no conception of the sport.

lebron fans (who are generally teenagers and Millenials) weren't even alive when MJ was around, so I don't understand how their opinion means anything.
I watched both. No one had Magic over Bird at the time.

Magic had more team success because until '86 he had better teams. The Celtics would have been better in '87 and '88 if injuries didn't wreck the team, and the Bias thing. Also, the Lakers faced much weaker competition on their way to the Finals. The west in the 80's was the equivalent of the east today.

Champ

01-05-2015, 02:38 PM

Champ

01-05-2015, 02:44 PM

And one more time...

Seeing that Magic entered the league younger than Bird, I really don't see the value in comparing career accomplishments according to age.

Height Freak

01-05-2015, 03:26 PM

That's right. Let's not forget Bird is 3 years older than Magic, a couple of inches taller and much slower than him in his prime.

SHAQisGOAT

01-05-2015, 04:20 PM

I watched both. No one had Magic over Bird at the time.

Magic had more team success because until '86 he had better teams. The Celtics would have been better in '87 and '88 if injuries didn't wreck the team, and the Bias thing. Also, the Lakers faced much weaker competition on their way to the Finals. The west in the 80's was the equivalent of the east today.

:applause:

KevinNYC

01-05-2015, 07:03 PM

That's right. Let's not forget Bird is 3 years older than Magic, a couple of inches taller and much slower than him in his prime.
What's the point of this post?

Also Magic is a couple of inches shorter than Bird?

LAZERUSS

01-05-2015, 07:33 PM

MVP voting until Bird's injury in '88.

80: Bird - 4; Magic - N/A (not in the top 10)
81: Bird - 2; Magic - 11
82: Bird - 2; Magic - 8
83: Bird - 2; Magic - 3
84: Bird - 1; Magic - 3
85: Bird - 1; Magic - 2
86: Bird - 1; Magic - 3
87: Bird - 3; Magic - 1
88: Bird - 2; Magic - 3

Average finish:

Bird - 2; Magic - 4.9

Note: Votes in 1980 were cast by fellow players.

To the poster who said Magic was better during the first part of their careers, that clearly was not the cast in terms of MVP voting.

Magic did have more post-season success during this period, but the gap between them, as far as they were recognized as individual players, was significant - and did not really close until their fourth season in the league together.

Wow...I have never seen that before...

Ok, here was the REALITY of that "voting."

Magic missed over HALF of the '80-81 season due to injury. Why didn't you include the MVP voting in '88-89 then...when Magic won the award, and Bird was nowhere to be found?

The 81-82 season voting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson

In 1981, after the 1980–81 season, Johnson signed a 25-year, $25-million contract with the Lakers, which was the highest-paying contract in sports history up to that point.[48] Early in the 1981–82 season, Johnson had a heated dispute with Westhead, who Johnson said made the Lakers "slow" and "predictable".[49] After Johnson demanded to be traded, Lakers owner Jerry Buss fired Westhead and replaced him with Riley. Although Johnson denied responsibility for Westhead's firing,[50] he was booed across the league, even by Laker fans.[

Magic was behind the eight-ball in '81-82 and anyone who was around then, was keenly aware of it.

Of course, in the 81-82 post-season, while Bird crumbled against the Sixers in the ECF's, Magic thrived, and dominated the same Sixer team in the Finals, en route to winning a FMVP.

Subtract those two seasons, and Magic's rookie season when Kareem was given far more credit than he deserved in the MVP balloting...and the rest of the MVP voting over the decade of the 80's was pretty close. And again, had the MVP voting been done AFTER the playoffs, and you can be sure that Magic would either have beaten Bird out in some of those seasons, or at least been comparable.

Seeing that Magic entered the league younger than Bird, I really don't see the value in comparing career accomplishments according to age.

Of course you don't. NO Bird fan would acknowledge the FACT that Magic accomplished FAR more at the same ages, as Bird did in their entire careers.

Furthermore, all we ever hear about from Bird fans are the "injuries"..even in his greatest seasons (like '86-87 and 87-88...albeit, there is never any mention of them in those years.) So, we are fed this crap that Bird's career was "cut-short" by injuries, and yet how about Magic's career? He left the game at close to his prime, and likely would have had 3-4 more outstanding seasons. Hell, in his last full season, he finished 2nd in the MVP balloting.

And...again...the REALITY...and comparing CAREER resumes...

By age 22, Magic had already accomplished far more than Bird had at age 23. From the time they were both 23, until they both turned 31, Magic just pulled away in "accomplishments."

Factor in that Bird choked in his '80, '82, and '83 post-seasons, (and he was simply awful in the '81 Finals as well)...and then blew chunks in his '88 post-season (again, the greatest REGULAR season of his career), and was basically worthless after that...

...while Magic DOMINATED in his post-season play in '80 and '82. Was certainly better than Bird in the '83 post-season; was ONE PASS away from being the consensus better player in the '84 Finals; easily outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals; crushed Bird and the entire Boston team in the '87 Finals; DOMINATED the same Piston team in the Finals (and was robbed of the FMVP), that had completely shut Bird down in the series before; and then was light-years better than Bird in '89, '90, and '91...and that Magic had 12 GREAT seasons to Bird's 9.

The crushing blow...

Better post-seasons:

Bird: '81 (nothing to write home about either), '84 (and again, Magic was ONE PASS away from racking this one up as well), and '86 (by a landslide.)

Magic: '80 (by a landslide), '82 (by a landslide), '83, '85, '87 (by a landslide), '88 (by a landslide), and then uncontested romps in '89, 90, and '91.

Overall...a 9-5 margin in Finals appearances; a 5-3 margin in rings; a 2-1 margin in H2H Finals; a 3-2 edge in FMVPs, and they each won three MVPs; and while their first 9 regular seasons were relatively close, Magic was FAR greater in their last three...and probably would have been for another 3-4 more years after that, too, had HE not been shot-down by AIDs.

Sorry, but Magic has a much stronger GOAT case than Bird does.

SHAQisGOAT

01-05-2015, 07:45 PM

What's the point of this post?

Also Magic is a couple of inches shorter than Bird?

I think Magic was a bit below 6'8 while Larry was a tad bit above 6'9 (both w/o shoes). Clear to tell that Bird was definitely taller when they stood next to each other.

La Frescobaldi

01-05-2015, 07:51 PM

Wow...I have never seen that before...

Ok, here was the REALITY of that "voting."

Magic missed over HALF of the '80-81 season due to injury. Why didn't you include the MVP voting in '88-89 then...when Magic won the award, and Bird was nowhere to be found?

The 81-82 season voting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson

Magic was behind the eight-ball in '81-82 and anyone who was around then, was keenly aware of it.

Of course, in the 81-82 post-season, while Bird crumbled against the Sixers in the ECF's, Magic thrived, and dominated the same Sixer team in the Finals, en route to winning a FMVP.

Subtract those two seasons, and Magic's rookie season when Kareem was given far more credit than he deserved in the MVP balloting...and the rest of the MVP voting over the decade of the 80's was pretty close. And again, had the MVP voting been done AFTER the playoffs, and you can be sure that Magic would either have beaten Bird out in some of those seasons, or at least been comparable.

Of course you don't. NO Bird fan would acknowledge the FACT that Magic accomplished FAR more at the same ages, as Bird did in their entire careers.

Furthermore, all we ever hear about from Bird fans are the "injuries"..even in his greatest seasons (like '86-87 and 87-88...albeit, there is never any mention of them in those years.) So, we are fed this crap that Bird's career was "cut-short" by injuries, and yet how about Magic's career? He left the game at close to his prime, and likely would have had 3-4 more outstanding seasons. Hell, in his last full season, he finished 2nd in the MVP balloting.

And...again...the REALITY...and comparing CAREER resumes...

By age 22, Magic had already accomplished far more than Bird had at age 23. From the time they were both 23, until they both turned 31, Magic just pulled away in "accomplishments."

Factor in that Bird choked in his '80, '82, and '83 post-seasons, (and he was simply awful in the '81 Finals as well)...and then blew chunks in his '88 post-season (again, the greatest REGULAR season of his career), and was basically worthless after that...

...while Magic DOMINATED in his post-season play in '80 and '82. Was certainly better than Bird in the '83 post-season; was ONE PASS away from being the consensus better player in the '84 Finals; easily outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals; crushed Bird and the entire Boston team in the '87 Finals; DOMINATED the same Piston team in the Finals (and was robbed of the FMVP), that had completely shut Bird down in the series before; and then was light-years better than Bird in '89, '90, and '91.

And then...a 9-5 margin in Finals appearances; a 5-3 margin in rings; a 2-1 margin in H2H Finals; a 3-2 edge in FMVPs, and thy each won three MVPs; and while their first 8 regular seasons were relatively close, Magic was FAR greater in their last three...and probably would have been for another 3-4 more years after that, too, had HE not been shot-down by AIDs.

Sorry, but Magic has a much stronger GOAT case than Bird does.

Early Magic had one of the two greatest paint targets in history. Not even Shaq was at the Wilt/ Kareem level. Yeah Kareem faded but early '80s Jabbar really had only 1 peer Moses in the paint. Bird was the main scoring threat of the Celtics, while Magic - undoubtedly awesome - was not.

If you think Bird's back damage did not impact his game then..... i don't even know what to tell you. That "light years" crap is..... well, crap.
cf. Dwight Howard on the Lakers for a recent example of what back surgery does to even great players. If you defend Chamberlain because his teams blew up with injuries -which you do, and rightly so - you had better show the same knowledge and respect about Bird or be called a STRAW MAN.

I'm the biggest Showtime fan there is and won't give up first place even for Nicholson but....... are you going to talk about Isiah's ankle injury in that Finals, or no? The Lakers didn't "DOMINATE" the Pistons, it took the full 7 games and a damaged Pistons PG for the Lakers to eke out the W in one of the greatest NBA battles.

Man I don't even get the disrespect you're showing, Laz, it's darn near shameless. We'd expect that kind of drivel from a chump like 97bulls or kennethgriffin but not from you.

C'mon man pick up your game

bizil

01-05-2015, 08:36 PM

Can't argue with Phil. Magic and Bird can go either way for me. Bird is the better scorer, but Magic was an alpha dog. Magic was more versatile but Bird was versatile in an epic manner too. Both were walking triple doubles who actually saw the game very similar. Can't go wrong either way.

LAZERUSS

01-05-2015, 11:16 PM

Early Magic had one of the two greatest paint targets in history. Not even Shaq was at the Wilt/ Kareem level. Yeah Kareem faded but early '80s Jabbar really had only 1 peer Moses in the paint. Bird was the main scoring threat of the Celtics, while Magic - undoubtedly awesome - was not.

If you think Bird's back damage did not impact his game then..... i don't even know what to tell you. That "light years" crap is..... well, crap.
cf. Dwight Howard on the Lakers for a recent example of what back surgery does to even great players. If you defend Chamberlain because his teams blew up with injuries -which you do, and rightly so - you had better show the same knowledge and respect about Bird or be called a STRAW MAN.

I'm the biggest Showtime fan there is and won't give up first place even for Nicholson but....... are you going to talk about Isiah's ankle injury in that Finals, or no? The Lakers didn't "DOMINATE" the Pistons, it took the full 7 games and a damaged Pistons PG for the Lakers to eke out the W in one of the greatest NBA battles.

Man I don't even get the disrespect you're showing, Laz, it's darn near shameless. We'd expect that kind of drivel from a chump like 97bulls or kennethgriffin but not from you.

C'mon man pick up your game

Again...here was REALITY...

Kareem...before Magic arrived, just going thru the motions and "leading" his STACKED rosters (Dantley, Nixon, Wilkes, and other's)...to slightly above .500 records, and playoff cannon-fodder for a considerably less talented Sonics teams. Magic arrived...60-22, KAJ with a career high .604 FG%, the Lakers wipe out the Sonics, 4-1, and then easily dispensed with the Sixers in the Finals. Oh, and with KAJ sitting out a key game on the road... a ROUT of those Sixers, and led by MAGIC's 42-15-7 game (on phenomenal shooting, and by far the best rebounder in the game.)

Bird "the scorer?" More like Bird the shot-jacker. His post-seasons, and particularly his Finals, were LITTERED with epic brick jobs.

How about this Magic who was a "second option?" Take a look at game six of the '80 Finals... 42 points, on 14-23 and 14-14. How about in his limited games in '81...his second season in the league? 21.6 ppg and on a .532 FG%...which included back-to-back games of 41 and 33 points.

And you can go thru EVERY season in his career, too. Stretches of 30+ point games. I pointed out a 15 straight game run in his '87 season, which was FILLED with 30 point games, and a high of 46 points...ALL while handing out nearly 12 apg! And in the second round of the '90 playoffs, when his teammates were getting shelled by Phoenix...30 ppg on a .500 FG%, which included back-to-back games of 43 points. And how about against Bird and his Celtics in the '87 Finals... 26 ppg, on a .541 FG% (and a .960 FT%), with 8 rpg, and 13 apg! Magic in the mid-80's was averaging nearly 20 ppg on seasons of .561 and .565 shooting from the field, too. Just unfathomable efficiency. Does ANYONE in their right mind honestly believe that Magic couldn't have scored MUCH MORE in his career? And do YOU??!!

And I get a kick out of those that credit KAJ in these discussions, too. He was a great side-kick, for half of the decade of the 80's, albeit, he couldn't rebound for his life, and his defense was awful. BUT, in his '87 season, he was a THIRD-WHEEL on a Laker team that just slaughtered the NBA. Furthermore, both Mychal Thompson and AC Green were more productive in their minutes, than KAJ was in his. The Lakers could EASILY have replaced Kareem in '87, and still waltzed to the title.

Then, how about that Piston series that you mention in '88? First of all, I never claimed that LA dominated that series. I merely claimed the truth...that MAGIC DOMINATED the Pistons, including Dennis Rodman. The SAME Piston team that shut-down Bird in his greatest individual season of his career (19 ppg on a .351 FG%!.) Magic steam-rolled Detroit with a 21-6-13 .550 series, and yes, was ROBBED of the FMVP by Worthy and his 22-7-4 .492 series. BTW, the Bird-lovers scream to the heavens that he was robbed of a FMVP in '81, when he put up a 15-15 .419 Finals, to a fellow player who put up an 18-10 .568 Finals. Just laughable.

AND, the Lakers won that series DESPITE Kareem's awful series (13 ppg, 4 rpg, and on a .414 FG%.) Furthermore, in game seven, KAJ was even WORSE...with a 4 point, 2-7 FG/FGA, 3 reb, 5 PF, 3 TO game and in 29 minutes. His main replacement, Thompson, played 22 minutes, scored 12 points, on 6-10 shooting, and with 4 rebs. I would argue that had KAJ retired after his '87 season, that LA would have beaten the Pistons much more easily than they did.

THEN, how about the '89 Finals? The Lakers came into the Finals with an 11-0 record. HOWEVER, they lost Byron Scott, and his 20 ppg in the WCF's. THEN, Magic goes down in game two, (tied by the way), and the Pistons win three close games to sweep the series. Kareem? 13 meaningless ppg, 5 worthless rpg, and on a horrid .434 FG%.

I could also argue that the Lakers could easily have replaced KAJ in the '82 Finals, when his sub, Bob McAdoo equaled his numbers, and in considerably less minutes (and on a greater efficiency.) Hell, we could really carry this out...how about the '80 Finals. With KAJ putting up a 33-14 .550 five games...LA held a 3-2 lead. With KAJ missing game six, and on the road, the Lakers just crushed the Sixers with their devastating speed...and of course, MAGIC's brilliance.

So, Kareem was a THIRD WHEEL, at BEST, in one of those Laker titles (and easily replaceable), and won a ring in another in which he was AWFUL. Oh, and he contributed absolutely nothing in yet another Finals, that had Magic not been injured, and had LA had a decent center, they might have won.

Bird's injuries? Don't you find it somewhat fascinating, that he played so poorly in so many series, and in regular seasons in which he was just spectacular? Yet...so many flop jobs. Furthermore, in his greatest regular season of his career, in 87-88, I couldn't find ONE mention of an injury in that post-season...and yet... 19 ppg on a .351 FG% against the Pistons.

And again, the Bird-lovers will ALWAYS bring up his injuries...but ignore Worthy's and McAdoo's in '83, or Magic's and Scott's in '89.

And I pointed out McHale's "broken foot" in that '86-87 season. CAREER HIGH regular season, second greatest post-season, and he was easily Boston's best player in the Finals with a 21-9 .585 series. Furthermore, he had a GREAT season the next year, as well (just like Bird), but unlike Bird, he was still great in the '87-88 post-season. BTW, Dennis Johnson had the best Finals of his career in '87, and both Ainge and Parish were solid. BUT, the Bird-lovers will tell you that Boston was in tatters. HOWEVER, they won't tell you that a HEALTHY Bird had ONE good game in that Finals, and his Celtics were crushed. Or that the Lakers played a horrible game in game three, and still nearly won the game...and that, coupled with Magic's brilliance in game four, and it would have been a SWEEP. The REALITY was, the Lakers annihilated Boston in three of their wins, and were CLEARLY the better team. A "healthy" Boston would have been beaten easily, as well.

I get sick of the "revisionists" here who, just like Hakeem, place Bird on some god-like pedestal, when in fact, he was often choking in the post-season. Take away about 4 seasons in the middle of his career, and the rest of his post-season career was filled with flop jobs.

Meanwhile, Magic was generally BRILLIANT in nearly every season and post-season of his career. Even the legendary "Tragic" put up an 18-8-14 .560 Finals against the Celtics. And again, had Worthy not made ONE errant pass, and Magic would now have SIX rings, and 4 FMVPs (and it should have been FIVE)...while Bird would be sitting with 2 rings, and 1 FMVP. ONE PASS.

Height Freak

01-05-2015, 11:24 PM

What's the point of this post?

Also Magic is a couple of inches shorter than Bird?

The point was to add to what the previous post to mine said.

I think Magic was a bit below 6'8 while Larry was a tad bit above 6'9 (both w/o shoes). Clear to tell that Bird was definitely taller when they stood next to each other.

Yes Magic is about 6'7" 1/2, 6'7" 3/4 and Bird is about 6'9" 1/2 (both without shoes)

http://pristineauction.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/1/14800/main_1.JPG

TheBigVeto

01-06-2015, 12:23 AM

Bird >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magic
Magic is one of the greatest frontrunners by joining Kareem the GOAT.

Kareem is better than both.

La Frescobaldi

01-06-2015, 12:36 AM

Bird >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magic
Magic is one of the greatest frontrunners by joining Kareem the GOAT.

Kareem is better than both.
Kareem in the '70s yeah agree.

absolutely

eliteballer

01-06-2015, 12:58 AM

Playoffs:

18.3 pts, 10.5 rebs, 9.4 ast, 3.1 stl, 52% FG

Finals:

21.5 pts, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl, 57 FG%

Know what those are? Magic's numbers as a 20 year old ROOKIE. How many runs does Bird have as good as that, let alone better?

Still no one has an answer for Magic CLEARLY AND REPEATEDLY outplaying PEAK Bird head to head in the finals....despite being 3 YEARS YOUNGER.

feyki

07-13-2016, 06:24 PM